The Committee met at 9:00 a.m in the House of Assembly.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Gilbert): Order, please!

Before we get into the real meat of this meeting, there are a few housekeeping things we have to do. I ask that someone approve the minutes of our last meeting yesterday where we discussed the Department of Finance and the Public Service Commission.

On motion, Minutes adopted as circulated.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we start I would like to welcome the minister and his staff here this morning. For the benefit of the staff I will introduce the Committee and then I will ask the minister to introduce his staff. I suggest, Mr. Minister - I tell you really - that if you ask any of your staff to speak, ask them to identify themselves, because the people who will be transcribing this don't know their voices. They might know yours and those fellows, but they don't know your staff's voices. I ask that when they speak, they identify themselves.

I am David Gilbert, the MHA for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir.

MR. FITZGERALD: Roger Fitzgerald, Vice-Chair of the Government Services Estimates Committee, MHA for Bonavista South.

MR. J. BYRNE: Jack Byrne, MHA for St. John's East Extern.

MR. CRANE: John Crane, MHA for Harbour Grace.

MR. RAMSAY: Bill Ramsay, MHA for LaPoile.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Minister, it is over to you. Normally what happens, Sir, is that you introduce your staff and then you can have up to fifteen minutes to outline your department's operation. Normally, what the ministers have done so far this year is just have very general - a few minutes, and I go to Mr. Fitzgerald, then, the Vice-Chairman, who will have a ten-minute opening. He will go back and forth and you can ask questions back and forth, and then I will recognize the various people and they will speak on a ten and ten with you.

I would like to welcome to the meeting, the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island, Mr. Walsh, the other member of the Government Services Estimates Committee. Now, Mr. Minister, over to you, Sir.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

It is a privilege for me, as the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, to sit here this morning to deal with my first estimates. The people on my immediate right and behind me, of course, have been here before. Without any further ado, let me introduce to you the staff.

To my immediate right is Ms. Deborah Fry, the Deputy Minister; next to Ms. Fry is Mr. David Clarke, ADM for Occupational Health and Safety; next to Mr. Clarke is Mr. Joe O'Neill, the ADM of Labour. Our Employment ADM, Ms. Cathy Gogan, is not with us this morning, she is out of the Province. In her place, I have Mr. Clayton Johnson, the Director of Employment Services; next to Mr. Johnson, who is on my extreme right, in the back, is Mr. Gerry Crocker, Manager of Financial Operations; and right behind me is Mr. Tom Hopkins, Director of Administration.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I won't break tradition. I don't want to have a whole lot to say in my opening remarks. However, there are some things that need to be addressed and a few good news items that I would like to bring to the Committee - and I don't see anybody else here, so just the Committee.

First of all, let me say that the Department of Employment and Labour Relations is comprised of four branches: the Executive and Support Services; the Labour Relations and Labour Standards Division; Occupational Health and Safety Division; and, of course, Employment and Careers; in the Labour Relations and Labour Standards Branch, the Labour Relations Division and the Labour Relations Board, and the Labour Standards Board; and just as a footnote I want to say that this morning the Labour Standards Board is in Corner Brook starting its first of public hearings on issues related to labour standards: i.e., minimum wage, holiday structure, to take submissions on statutory holidays and such.

Our Occupational Health and Safety Branch is the Occupational Health and Safety Division, the Education and Committees Division, the Policies and Planning Division, and these are all very active divisions. I just might add, from our division this year, starting April 1, the public safety, as most of you are aware, I am sure, probably all of you are aware, that the one-stop shop entity is now in place as of the new fiscal year, and that comes under Minister Reid, so the public safety personnel who were with our department last year, our elevator inspectors, our electrical inspectors, our boiler and pressure vessel, amusement rides and building people have all gone over to that one-stop shop entity; however, we are still very active in the Occupational Health and Safety Division, and we have a year that will hopefully give us an opportunity to look at our regulations and address certain needs throughout the Province.

Our Employment and Careers Branch is comprised of our Employment Services Division, our Labour Market Services Division, and our Youth Employment Strategy and Career Support Division. That is where I would just want to make some comment, Mr. Chairman. That particular division deals primarily with employment programs, the women's employment programs, the older worker programs, the emergency response, which is here, which is a program which does not have the right name; however, we won't play with semantics this morning - we have seen enough semantics over the last four or five days - the Hibernia Training Offshore Fund and Strategic Initiatives. I want to say a few words about the strategic initiatives. We have just concluded some of this area, and we have some information out to the public, but for the committees and for those who are interested, I just want to say a few words. I am pleased that this year we are able to advise that Newfoundland was the first Province to sign a Memorandum of Understanding, and a three-year federal/provincial agreement was signed this year on February 15.

Now, the $20 million Newfoundland Strategic Initiative is called Transitions; the changes within education to work, and work to education. It is cost-shared on a 50/50 basis with the Federal Government. The overall goal of this initiative is to assist students, recent graduates, and unemployed individuals access employment. There are three program components to this initiative, including the Student Work and Services program, the graduate employment/self-employment program, and the strategic employment opportunities program.

Let me just say a few words to you about the Student Work and Services Program. The Student Work and Services Program is valued at $4.4 million. It is designed to assist students who have had difficulty in obtaining employment to offset education and training costs at the post-secondary level, post-secondary institutions. It was delivered during the 1994-'95 fiscal year, and the program had two components. I want to refresh your memory on this because we will be going into this particular program again this year, and that was the paid work one, the initial one, which was that the Province provided a wage subsidy to the private sector to employ post-secondary students at the rate of $2 an hour. This was supplemented by tuition vouchers of $50 for every week worked, redeemable, of course, at any post-secondary institution in Canada, because some of our students, as you are aware, could not find the opportunity within the designed criteria that they wanted to deal with to pick up a diploma and/or a certificate course.

The second one is the community service work, that the students who obtained non-paid community service placements with non-profit organizations received a tuition voucher of $1,200 redeemable at any post-secondary institution in Canada. They also receive $50 a week stipend for out-of-pocket expenses. We found that there was quite a number of students who took advantage of this program last year, and we put out a fair amount of money. The Federal Government are currently finalizing an evaluation on this initiative. The Provincial Government have expressed interest in continuing the initiative in 1995-1996 and are, of course, awaiting response from our federal counterparts. Those meetings, as I speak - well, not as I speak, but we have already had some negotiations, and we will continue until hopefully we can have that program back in place and be able to offer it very soon as the end of our post-secondary and university years come to a close.

Now, the Graduate Employment and Self-Employment Program, valued at $3 million, is designed to assist recent graduates obtain experience directly related to their field of study. Preference is given to graduates seeking employment in a designated growth area, and to recent graduates who wish to develop and operate their own business. I think this kind of moves along with some other departmental initiatives such as EDGE and things that we have seen. Employers who obtain funding through this program receive a 60 per cent wage subsidy to a maximum of $10,000 for a period of fifty-two weeks. Graduates who take advantage of the self-employment option receive up to $260 per week for a period of fifty-two weeks, up to a total of $13,520. The program is still in an early stage of implementation and we look forward to building and growing in this particular program.

Strategic Employment Opportunities Program. This program is valued at $11.4 million. It is designed to provide employment and training opportunities to unemployed and underemployed individuals ranging from low-skilled workers to post-secondary graduates. So it has a full spectrum. Its objective is to link social policy and economic policy objectives. A partnership has been formed between three provincial and three federal departments in an effort to accomplish this objective. Employers submitting proposals must include a business plan acceptable to a designated economic development agency, such as Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador or ACOA or a business development centre. Private sector applications are eligible for a 50 per cent wage subsidy to a maximum of $10,000 for a fifty-two week period, and non-profit organizations are eligible, of course, for a 100 per cent wage subsidy to a maximum of $20,000 for a similar period.

The strategic initiatives are overseen by the Federal and Provincial Management Committee comprised of all partners, including representatives of Human Resource Development Canada, Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador, ACOA and, of course, the provincial departments of Employment and Labour Relations, Education and Training and Social Services. Program implementation is at an early stage with increased activity expected during the fiscal year of 1995-1996.

So these are just a few updating notes I wanted to bring to you this morning to tell you that the department is very active in this area. We are continuing to do other things with early retirement programs with our federal counterparts. I wanted to just scan over that, Mr. Chairman, very briefly.

I might also say to you that we are extremely busy in the labour relations field at this particular point in time. Last year, we put out a document called Exploring Options to anybody in Newfoundland who primarily was involved in the labour relations field from the management level and/or the employee level. We have, to date, received some seventeen very large presentations and we are going on to do other things before that legislation would become a reality.

After all, we have not looked at the labour relations legislation as a whole since way back in the early 1970s. I think we would all agree that after twenty-some-odd years, it is time for us to address the issue. It is one of our activities that has us very busy at Employment and Labour Relations and, obviously, until we have concluded, having heard from both sides, we will continue to be active. Every one of those documents that has been presented to us, we consider as a living document, and we anticipate quite a lot of activity in this particular area.

Again, as I said, our Occupational Health and Safety Division is continuing to grow, if not in numbers - we do have a few new people as such - but if not in numbers then in our thinking and looking at our regulations, and always trying, of course, to cut the cloth to suit the garment in regard to Occupational Health and Safety. Again, as I said, I have dealt with some of our employment strategies and what have you. So, by and large, Mr. Chairman, those are just a few comments that I would like to make on behalf of the department.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, I have to admit right off the top that it seems like you are very much on top of what is happening in your department. It seems, in the short length of time you have been there, that you have been very instrumental in bringing forward some programs and continuing with programs that have been very good in the past. I think of some, like the student programs that were brought forward last year, in which the students were given a voucher that they could turn in and get their - turn it into their post-secondary study area and receive credit for that. I think that was a very positive thing, because in the past we were always faced with - people were out looking for a job and found all kinds of reasons why they needed a job but many times the money was directed somewhere else. The person who was sincere in going and attending either the Cabot College, MUN or whatever, found themselves probably many times not getting a job and somebody else buying a car or taking a trip on the money they had obtained by taking part in summer employment. So, obviously, that is going to continue. Is that also available for the private sector?

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: So they would be entitled to give out vouchers as well?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, let me find some notes on that. Let me say to the Member for Bonavista South, the private sector - the Province paid a wage subsidy to the post-secondary students of two dollars an hour. This was implemented by a tuition voucher of fifty dollars for every week worked. So if the student worked forty hours a week, of course, the student had eighty dollars, and I think it was -

AN HON. MEMBER: Equally, two and two.

MR. MURPHY: Two and two, so that was $160 the student had and, of course, the department, in that student's name, to the institution that the student so identified, we sent a voucher for fifty dollars a week. The community service worker, of course, was also very much involved and a tuition voucher of $1,200 went in the name of the student to the post-secondary and/or university and they received a fifty-dollar-a-week stipend for out-of-pocket and/or pocket money as we used to say.

MR. FITZGERALD: The graduate one is certainly a positive one as well, because many times people graduate, and without experience they still find themselves in great difficulty in trying to find work. So this gives them an opportunity now to encourage somebody to hire them and provide them with some experience when they go looking somewhere else. So those are very positive things.

MR. MURPHY: Having looked over some of the firms and the community service groups where the students were involved, I will suggest to you that if those same students, up to a graduation period, continued on with this program they would have attained certainly a fair amount of work experience during the summer months in very worthwhile areas. So the member is correct.

MR. FITZGERALD: What effort is put forward by your department in making people aware of those programs? There are all kinds of fancy names on them and every program carries its own title. Sometimes it is hard for us people who are around here every day to keep up with it. Other than the MHA getting it out to the local employers in the area, does your department have some way of getting the information out to employers and students alike to let them know of the programs that are on the go because there are a lot of people out there who are not aware of it, I can ensure you.

MR. MURPHY: Let me say to the member, we have a very good liaison with HRDC. Very many of our students of course as you are aware would go to the old CEC or CEIC as we used to know it, the unemployment division of the employment branch of HRDC. We deal very closely with those folks. We have two centres ourselves. This year we will open up two more centres, I think, Deputy Minister, in Grand Falls and -

WITNESS: Bonavista.

MS. FRY: (Inaudible) Happy Valley - Goose Bay.

MR. MURPHY: Happy Valley - Goose Bay and St. John's are where we are now open.

MS. FRY: (Inaudible) Grand Falls.

MR. MURPHY: Gander and Grand Falls we are looking at this year. Those are our career offices where we deal with those young people who want to explore the opportunities. We have the information in those offices. We also, as the member is aware, announced these programs through the media to the public, and I would ask every member of the House, as we did with the employment generation program - we will be supplying each and every member of the House of Assembly with a package that he or she has full information to discuss with their constituents and the young people in their ridings to make sure that they are aware of the program.

I suppose we could go out to the post offices and tack them up and what have you. The member knows how difficult some of these things are. We are certainly doing whatever we can and we are certainly open to suggestions.

MR. FITZGERALD: Are those programs delayed from what they've been in the past years?

MR. MURPHY: I beg your pardon?

MR. FITZGERALD: Are those programs delayed from what they were in the past years? Am I correct in saying that some of those programs, the deadline for applications was March 31 last year?

MR. MURPHY: No, we have no deadline now, to my knowledge. Clayton?

MR. JOHNSON: Most of the programs now are continuous in effect. With regard to the graduate (inaudible), the applications just keep coming in until the budget is gone. With the student applications there generally is a deadline but generally that is around the end of May by the time the schools get out.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay.

MR. MURPHY: Just to correct something that we said prior, and I don't want to leave the wrong impression. We said that we would pay $2, I mentioned to the member, and the private sector pay $2.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: That would only be $4 and we would be breaking our own labour standards law. In actual reality the department pays $2 and the employer pays $2.75 to bring it up to the minimum wage. I just wanted to clarify that for the member.

MR. FITZGERALD: Getting off to another topic. Hibernia, Mr. Minister. Do you have a monitoring program, that is either on site or here in your department that is monitoring what is happening out there at that construction site? Is there one?

MR. MURPHY: Yes. Let me ask the member, is he dealing specifically with financing or training, or is he dealing with occupational health and safety?

MR. FITZGERALD: With regard to the way people are hired and laid off, the amount of overtime that is paid out there, scheduling and this sort of thing.

MS. FRY: (Inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: The Deputy Minister advises me that we don't do that to the extent that the member suggested - that is involved in the collective agreement. Of course, as the member is probably aware, when we came together on the Hibernia arrangement our involvement was to monitor. That would be the word. We didn't get into the details that exists between the building trades council and the managers as regards to overtime, et cetera. I don't know, it may be available through Natural Resources, who are involved also with Hibernia.

Our departments responsibility lies in monitoring and taking the normal calls from the public concerning the Hibernia project and their ability or inability to find employment out there and we deal with investigative work in that sense. We don't really deal with the monetary aspects of the cost of the job.

MR. FITZGERALD: Does it bother the minister the amount of overtime that is being paid out there and the number of hours that people are working when other unions and many of our people are out walking the streets who are capable of doing the same job? I know people out there who are paying in $45,000 and $50,000 a year income tax. I don't know if that is the reason behind it or not because government collects it back on the other end but it certainly bothers me to see that and it bothers me to know that we allow this to happen. It happens not only at Hibernia but it seems like the people today who are working are doing very well, are working a lot of hours and are making very good money and then there is another sector of people who find it hard to get a job, are not working and are not doing very well at all. Is it possible or is the minister looking at some way that we can regulate this? Why should we have people who are unskilled labour - I am talking about labourers out at the Hibernia site working seventy and eighty hours a week, thirty and thirty-five days without a day off and you have another group of people who cannot find a job? Is there some reason for that?

MR. MURPHY: Well, first of all -

MR. FITZGERALD: And accommodations are not a good reason, if the minister is going to say that.

MR. MURPHY: No, no, I was not going to say that, I say to the member. First of all let me say that it is very difficult for government to get its nose, I suppose, into the normal operation between a private sector and/or the management group at Hibernia and the building trades because I would suggest to the member that a lot of the work scheduling is done by necessity, whether you are in slip form or what have you, you find yourself looking at a situation - and it is very difficult for government to dictate.

I know exactly where the member is coming from, and we have had some discussions with both groups and discussed it and I think what the member sees now is a situation out there where at all possible - we see the seven and seven, the seven on seven off scenario. I say to the member that the workforce, projected workforce at Hibernia, has exceeded way beyond what we normally thought. So there is job opportunity out there that we did not think, even at the peak, would be available.

I would agree that there are some people out there who are working long hours, and perhaps there might be a better way of dividing that up among people who are not working, and government of course does not have the authority within the legislation we have now. We certainly can be leaders and have discussion, which we do, but I am sure the member fully understands that it is difficult for government to put in place something that would interfere and/or cause the Hibernia project concern. I think we all understood that the project was behind at some point in time, and management took it upon itself to make sure that they caught up with that. It was costly for them in the overtime scenario, and again I say to the member that I don't know, I cannot give the member specific numbers, but it seems to me that somewhere in the range of 700 to 800 additional jobs over projected is what has been the status quo since probably November up until the last week or so. Continuity in the workforce is a major factor.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Fitzgerald your time has expired. I now recognize Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, you mentioned a few minutes ago that there are job opportunities at Hibernia. Now I believe there may be job opportunities at Hibernia, but for certain people and for certain communities within this Province. I wrote you back in January I believe asking for an enquiry into the hiring practices out there, and I am having a lot of complaints from people trying to get work at Bull Arm. For example, back in January - I think this can be verified - there were approximately twenty people hired on as kitchen staff out there at one bang, I think there were twelve from one community, seven or eight from another community and then one more from just all over. I don't know if you have been aware that this is going on or not. You should be, as Employment Minister for sure. Do you see that you can do anything about that or what?

MR. MURPHY: Well let me say to the member -

MR. J. BYRNE: And that is for very blatant reasons if my information is correct.

MR. MURPHY: Well, I suppose everybody has a different viewpoint. We have a full-time person who does nothing only monitor complaints from the public and/or those who have applied for positions at Hibernia. It is a very busy job. Sometimes we have to assign other people because of the workload, and we check out every complaint that comes before us. I have had some dialogue with the deputy, some of our employment people, and even with the individual who deals with this, just to get a handle on what kind of complaints are coming in, and what have you, and we do our very best to try to get to the bottom of a complaint. If somebody says that there is something going on that they don't see as being reasonable or logical, we check it out.

I also want to remind the member that the collective agreement is between the management and the building trades, and unless it is something very blatant it is very difficult for the department, as I am sure the member appreciates, to accuse any union and/or the employer, because subsequently the employer and the union have to agree because of the capability of individuals to perform.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, I don't think it would be that hard to investigate it and find it out. If you are saying you are doing your very best, I would suggest that the very best is not good enough. If you can go in there and get a list of the employees on that site, and look at it community by community, and if certain communities are over-represented, then there is something wrong going on.

For example I had one individual, I met with the union on him, he has been in a carpenters' union for over twenty years, paying his dues, and he cannot get on that site. There are other people out there, signed up, and are out on that site. Now they can play with the books or whatever they want, but it is happening, and it is not only happening in the carpenters' union; it is happening throughout that whole site.

MR. MURPHY: What the member should also understand is that the collective agreement states that all of the building trades - I think there are some fourteen or fifteen unions involved in the building trades - the collective agreement states that all of those who are union members shall be hired first.

Let me say to the member, it isn't fair for me to second guess the unions any more than it is fair for him. We ask the union for the information. The union supplies the information back to the department, and we respond on that information. Sometimes we do in-depth investigations if we feel they are improper, but I say to the member that we do the best we can with a situation that exists between the management and the unions.

MR. J. BYRNE: I can give you names of people out there and it is questionable whether they should have been there before other individuals. I think government has a responsibility here for that work to be spread out throughout this Province. If you can investigate the employees out there, and check the communities that they are coming from, I believe you will definitely get over-representation per community, and something should be done about it.

You can go on and on and on, and you wrote me back with the letter I was expecting to get back, with a copy of the Terms of Reference, or the union agreement. That is not good enough, from my perspective. Something should be done about that. There are people in my district who cannot get out there. There are people who are going out and getting in like that because of who they know, and there are no ifs ands or buts about it; that is happening. You know it is happening, and I know it is happening.

MR. MURPHY: I will say to the member that there are 3,600 jobs at Hibernia, approximately, and, of course, there are 50,000 others who want to go to work there. I had a complaint from an individual from St. Anthony the other day dealing with a problem associated with when he finishes his shift and the long drive, so I would suggest to the member that there are people from all over the Province, even Labrador, who are working on the Hibernia project.

MR. J. BYRNE: Definitely, but that doesn't alter the fact that there are communities out there, and I can name the communities but I won't now, who are being over-represented because of certain individuals.

MR. MURPHY: If the member wants to be more specific - and he doesn't want to do it here - or he wants to talk to our employment people, I would be very happy to set up a meeting with the officials and he could bring forward his complaints at that level.

MR. WALSH: More of a point of order than anything else, Mr. Chairman. I can understand where the hon. member is coming from but I think, unless we are going to deal in specifics, that probably the best thing to do would be for himself and either the minister or the Deputy Minister to find a half-hour privately and give him an opportunity to either list the communities in question, or indeed to go through some of the individuals in particular who seem to be having difficulty. We are all experiencing that at Hibernia so he is not necessarily alone in his thoughts. It might be a good idea for him to meet privately, and that way he might be able to address it a little better one-on-one.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm sure that the member will take the advice.

MR. J. BYRNE: I suggested that very thing just before the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island said that. Anyway, we will move on.

With respect to the emergency employment program that was introduced in January. Of course, you know it well and you are quite familiar with the history of it.

MR. MURPHY: I beg your pardon?

MR. J. BYRNE: You are quite familiar with the history of it, but I have some concerns with respect -

MR. MURPHY: You bet I am.

MR. J. BYRNE: - to my district. For example, I am going to go through a few towns and just see if this is representative of across the Province. The town of Bauline was approved for approximately $10,000, however, because they could not get anyone to work the money was not received. The Flatrock town council, the town received $15,705. It will be returning approximately $9,000. Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove, the town received $14,135. It will be returning approximately $3,500. The town of Pouch Cove was approved for approximately $14,000; however, because they could not get anyone the money was not received. Pouch Cove United Church received $9,800 and they spent it. The town council of Torbay received $21,500 and it spent that.

That works out to be 45 per cent of the money in that district is being returned to government. Is that pretty well representative of what happened across the Province because the criteria were so strict that they couldn't get people - and by the way, there were people in these communities begging for work. People phoning me up on the verge of tears who had never been out of work before going to Social Services and could not qualify for these jobs. Yet we had money there, we had to send it back. Can you say a few words on that?

MR. MURPHY: I'm sure the member is very much aware of the difficulty we had. We felt that we could not continue with a program that went on as in other years. We knew from experience, both the officials and a lot of others, that it was becoming a program that people became very dependent on who were not involved in the normal workforce. That was identified when we put in the criteria that if you were on the program for the last three years you could not go on it this year. That was one of the indications that we put forward.

WITNESS: Who is "we"?

MR. MURPHY: I beg your pardon?

WITNESS: Who is "we"?

MR. MURPHY: "We" is the Cabinet, of course, I say to the member. He understands that. If he doesn't he may in another fifteen or sixteen years have an opportunity to understand it. Again I would say -

MR. J. BYRNE: Overconfidence is a killer, I would say to the minister.

MR. MURPHY: I beg your pardon?

MR. J. BYRNE: Overconfidence is a killer, I would say to the minister.

MR. MURPHY: I'm only saying that in jest, as the member and I do constantly. He is aware of that.

Back to the more serious part of it. We also wanted to deal with those individuals who had gotten out there and obtained six weeks. That was another part of the criteria. I am not going to say that this program is everything to all people. It obviously can't be. There are other employment programs that had the full week component with the same dollars in it that were offered through the Department of Social Services.

It is government's intention to try and give people an opportunity to work at every level, and to try to get them as much assistance as possible. The criteria was brought in this year, though I agree with the member that there are some people who called me - as a matter of fact, there were quite a few people who called me - personally, over the weekend, and said the criteria was awfully stringent in their case, and one thing and another, and I suppose to be sympathetic to the phone call is not doing much for the person on the other end of the phone, but explaining that government had taken this position, and why we had taken this position, I say to the member that I make no apologies for it. It was something; we are going to send out a very detailed questionnaire. We will learn from this year's experience with the criteria, and we will address it in other years.

I say to the member that although some of the funding will come back, there will be slippage. We identify in the estimates that we will spend $4,720,000. The report that I had received on March 14 indicated in excess of $5 million. Now there will be slippage. I suppose it is like an airline that overbooks, knowing that everybody isn't going to show up to fly. We overextended it. There will be slippage, there is no question about it. Did the employment creation program do well? I would suggest to the member that we will have put to work this year, through this program, probably more people with twice the money, and I stand to be corrected, because we don't have the final numbers in. The program is not tied up yet. It is going to take us up to three weeks to tie it all in. There are questionnaires going out -

AN HON. MEMBER: Half the money (inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: I beg your pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: You said twice the money. You meant half the money, I guess.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, I appreciate the member's assertiveness and brightness.

I think that we have done as well as we could have under the circumstances. It was a government decision, and a lot of people have done well by the program.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Alright, Mr. Byrne's time has expired, but by leave he wants to ask another question. His colleague is the only other fellow who wants to ask a question, so maybe...

MR. J. BYRNE: No problem. The thing is, I have asked two questions and it took the minister probably six minutes to answer each question.

MR. MURPHY: I want to make sure that the member gets the appropriate and honest answer.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, good for you.

Now, with respect to the answer that you just gave, you are saying that that program was the most to most people; I would suggest that it was very little to most people.

You are saying there is $4.7 million going to be spent out of that $5 million. Well, I have much trouble believing that. I think there is going to be a lot more slippage, when you get the results in that you have, at that point in time.

MR. MURPHY: What would the member suggest would be spent?

MR. J. BYRNE: I would not know, but there was 45 per cent not spent in my district. Now, my district may not be typical, but I would say if you get 70 per cent it is as much as you are going to get.

MR. MURPHY: So, 70 per cent -

MR. J. BYRNE: That is just off the top of my head.

Another thing, too, with respect to that program, you are saying that the government had to make decisions and create a certain number of jobs and what have you, but these people who were begging for jobs, who wanted jobs, who probably were never out of work in the past twenty or twenty-five years, and I had a number of them call me, and they couldn't quality for this, end up going to social services, so are we spending the money anyway, and not getting anything for it as such?

MR. MURPHY: No, because let me say to the member, as I said in my response earlier, the Department of Social Services has similar programs of employment, employment creation, that exist for a period of twelve full weeks. So within our department we offered what we felt was a program that captured a group that were out there struggling, trying to find employment, those who were not directly involved with the groundfish, and we even opened it up, if the member remembers, to those who were involved in the crab fishery and could only get maybe seven or six or eight weeks, or whatever the case may be. We didn't of course want to direct it towards the NCARP and/or the TAGS because that wouldn't have been fair to those on the other side of the fence who were in the forest industry who couldn't get any more than seven or eight weeks, or those who were in secondary industries who couldn't get anything at all, who were maybe five or six weeks. We addressed it to that area, I suggest to the member.

The other thing is that we bent over backwards within the criteria. We had lots of groups out there - community councils, development groups - who advised the department that they were dealing with individuals who only had five or four weeks. But they would guarantee two weeks' employment to the individual and they wrote us to that effect, and we cooperated with those people and went along with that. We really tried hard to accommodate under the criteria. Whether this program was successful or not, I guess at the conclusion of it we will have to determine that, after the questionnaire goes out and what have you, and how many people were involved and how many people we helped, I say to the member.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Minister, I believe deep down in your soul, in your gut, you know that was a substandard program and it did not meet near the needs out there this past year.

MR. MURPHY: The member obviously is certainly entitled to his opinion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Fitzgerald. You want to come back again I take it, do you Mr. Byrne?

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, just to continue on in the line of thought I guess that my colleague was getting at. I think you made a mockery of the program that you brought forward and I think it is shameful that the criteria was set. I mean, you represent a district that in many parts, in some of your district, is much similar to rural Newfoundland. You know the need is out there and I know the telephone calls you got. Anyway, you will never be welcomed in rural Newfoundland again.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, in my district I would suggest to you, you will probably see in excess of 70 per cent of the funds that were allocated. I think you might find out if you did a survey there that we probably got in excess of 55 per cent unemployment in my district. There was certainly a need there. Those people found themselves in dire straits for the winter when all of a sudden there was an announcement brought forward that there was a $5 million job creation project. Many of them couldn't avail of the program. In some instances even families - and I almost suggested it to them, in fact I did suggest to them - it might be shameful on my part, but I did - that I know of situations where families separated for six weeks so they could go out and qualify for a program. Do you mean to tell me that this is the kind of thing that we should condone, or the kind of thing that we have to do in order to make the minimum wage here in Newfoundland? It is shameful.

MR. MURPHY: I'm not suggesting that at all. In the first part of the member's question he talked about my district. My district asked for $51,370 for 157 weeks, and we utilized all that in the District of St. John's South. I can only speak to my own district. From what the member says he certainly speaks to his district. To suggest that government condones that families would have to separate for six weeks and what have you, I know the member is only saying that (inaudible) -

MR. FITZGERALD: No, I'm not, I'm dead serious.

MR. MURPHY: - I certainly wouldn't condone that, nor would I think it proper (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I'm serious. That is what they had to do. I could go on and give you examples but that is not what we are here for this morning.

Getting back to Hibernia again, Mr. Minister, and the lay offs there. Have you had many complaints about our own Newfoundlanders being laid off while people with travel cards - which is what people call other union members who come into the province to work - have been allowed to stay on?

MR. MURPHY: I say to the member, honestly, it hasn't gotten up to me, people calling me directly and/or through our own department, that this is the case. I can understand maybe in the mechanical trades, some of the trades where we don't have the expertise in Newfoundland, but I don't know that there are travel cards in the civil trades who would be kept on over Newfoundlanders. No, I say to the member, I have not heard anybody; nobody has come to me personally, and I have not felt it come up through the department.

MR. FITZGERALD: I have talked to Mr. Simpkins on this on at least two occasions, and he has verified to me that it has been done, but his excuses have been very, very weak, or his reasons why it has been done have been very, very weak, with the iron trades.

Another question: Have you had many complaints about supervisory personnel being brought in to supervise a certain - like the marrying of the well head, I think it's the M-20 module, to the gravity-based structure, where people, from my understanding of the agreement, are allowed to bring in their own supervisory personnel, but they are only there to supervise and direct and not to do hands-on work. Have you had many complaints from some of the trades that have been laid off while those people are out there working, people from Calgary and other parts of Western Canada?

MR. MURPHY: No, I say to the member, I have not. What the member is saying now is new to me. I have not heard any complaint, either directly to me, or again, up through the department. I am very surprised to hear the member say that the supervisory personnel would be allowed to get involved in the hands-on operation. Knowing the building trades, I find that rather strange, to say the least; however, the member may have all the validity in the world, but no, I say to him, that I have not heard from anybody directly on that particular issue, nor has it come to my attention through my officials.

MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I can make you aware of it now. I think the name of the company is Kenonic Controls, and I think their local partner is Ozark Electrical here in Newfoundland, and those people are out there doing hands-on work. There are electricians and millwrights, and either welders or pipefitters, who have done one heck of a lot of complaining.

I am a member of a trade union myself, and I know they have complained to me, and I have called your office. I don't know if it was at the time you were out or what, but I don't think that you and I talked about it one on one. It is a big concern there, and they had a real issue with that. In fact, I believe that was part of the reason they had the sit-down strike, or the walkout there, Mr. Minister.

MR. MURPHY: I think that was primarily to do with housing and shift-breakage, and stuff of that nature, I say to the member. Is the member aware that this was commissionary work?

MR. FITZGERALD: Commissionary work, yes.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, it was commissionary work. Now, we dealt with that through the grievance procedure and settled it.

MR. FITZGERALD: I think it was the M-20 well head module, if I recall.

MR. MURPHY: Yes. We monitor them, and we watch it because we pay very close attention to the labour relations at Hibernia. As the member appreciates, it is very important to make sure that things go on well out there, but they themselves dealt with it and my understanding from my officials is that it was dealt with through the grievance procedure.

MR. FITZGERALD: So it has been settled?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, it has been settled.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, are there any plans for increasing the minimum wage? It has been talked about many times, as you know. It was at $4.75 and in places like - well, Quebec and British Columbia, I suppose, are probably the three places where you look at employment being the greatest in this country. I think their minimum wage is much, much higher. What are they - $6-something or $8-something?

MR. MURPHY: I think B.C. might be $6.25 or what have you.

MR. FITZGERALD: The old excuse you continue to hear in Newfoundland is that if you add anything on to it whatsoever, you will have this mass exodus of lay-offs. All our companies will fold up; we won't be able to generate employment anymore. I don't know if I believe that, and I don't think you do, either. If companies are that borderline, then I am not so sure we should be all that worried about them. Sometimes I feel that is being used as an excuse rather than us looking at it with an open mind and seeing that those people who are at the poverty level and well below, I think we should be looking at them and bringing in rules and regulations to protect them and give them a decent standard of living.

MR. MURPHY: Well, I am sure that the member, as all members would - I think we are very strong advocates of the conciliatory process, and we want to hear from people as to why we should or why we should not. Let me say to the member that legislatively, the department is required to every five years go to the populace of the Province.

The Labour Standards Board again, as I said in my introduction, as we sit here this morning, is in Corner Brook with conciliatory - and/or a public meeting to give all of those on both sides of the issue the opportunity to bring forward to the Labour Standards Board their input as to why we should or should not. That process, of course, will continue on throughout the Province, into Labrador and back into the Island portion of the Province, and at the end of their deliberations and hearings the Labour Standards Board will bring forward recommendations to the minister on that specific subject. So I am sure the member understands that for me to comment at this time would be totally inappropriate. I want to give the Labour Standards Board its opportunity to fulfil its mandate, but that should be done within the next five or six months, and I am sure we will all look forward to seeing what they have to say as the information comes in.

MR. FITZGERALD: So it is being looked at now, and it is something that you are considering.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, as we speak here today.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister -

MR. CHAIRMAN: Your time has expired, Sir, or you have a minute; I am sorry.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, the electrical and boiler inspectors, that was done by your predecessor, I think, if I recall correctly, where they had laid off a fair number - not all of them, but a fair number - and they changed the whole process in the way inspections were being done here in the Province. How much money has your department saved? I suppose it was all about saving money, the reason why that was done?

MR. MURPHY: Well, really -

MR. FITZGERALD: I am not so sure safety played a big part in it.

MR. MURPHY: I think what we have done, and the member would agree, is government felt at that time that the one-stop entity was much more convenient for the public of the Province. We took the whole public sector and put it under one roof, so to speak, not only individuals from my department, but from health and other departments, and public health inspectors, and what have you, people who issue not only electrical inspection slips but septic tank arrangements, etcetera, because the public were very inconvenienced, I am sure, as the member is aware, bouncing around from building to building, location to location, trying to get permits and licences to do these kinds of things. So government decided before - and the member is right - before I became involved in Cabinet, that they were going to go with the one-stop shop entity. That, of course, involved people from our department, my department, namely, the electrical inspectors and, of course, the boiler and pressure vessel inspectors, and the elevator inspectors.

I dealt with it, I think, in my opening remarks, and I don't want to leave anybody out because they are all -

AN HON. MEMBER: Building accessibility.

MR. MURPHY: Building accessibility, and amusement rides. Now, I don't know. Somebody would come in here from that one-stop entity and look at the House in session and they might say that this is the biggest amusement ride and probably the most hazardous in the nature of the one-stop shop, but we turned over all that public safety issue to that one-stop shop, and I think the dollars involved -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: Okay, I stand to be corrected. If I haven't answered the member's question to the fullest, then I would be happy to (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. I don't understand what you mean by the one-stop shopping. Are you saying that now you can go into a place in Clarenville -

MR. MURPHY: No.

MR. FITZGERALD: Pardon?

MR. MURPHY: Let me say to the member that there is a new entity under the direction of Mr. Dwyer, who was the former Assistant Deputy Minister with this department in Occupational Health and Safety. I think he has approximately 120 people in that entity. Some of those people are still under our roof because this became official as government's fiscal year took place. No, I am not saying that Clarenville and/or Corner Brook or what have you - but at least now if somebody in Clarenville wants all the permits associated with building a house or small business or whatever the case may be, he can come into this one-stop entity and pick up, I would think, all of what he would need, and then go through that building and get back out and get on with his building.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister, thank you, Mr. Fitzgerald.

I will recognize Mr. Byrne, but before I do, normally we stop these meetings for a coffee break at around 10:15 a.m. to 10:30 a.m. If it is the will of the Committee that they feel they can finish up shortly after 10:30 a.m., we will carry on without the coffee break and then we can have our own individual coffee breaks sometime after we break up. I wonder what is the consensus of the Committee, before we continue.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, that is, you know. The thing is for me I -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: I will now recognize Mr. Byrne and we will see when Mr. Byrne is finished if I invite you to go to coffee in the government common room or if I recognize Mr. Fitzgerald again.

Mr. Byrne.

MR. MURPHY: My friend, the Member for Harbour Grace, after six years, knows that to be a fact.

AN HON. MEMBER: I suggest, a word to the wise is sufficient.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am going to get into the Estimates now themselves. On page 210 of the Estimates under section 1.2.02, Salaries: You had budgeted $535,400, you spent $554,000, and now you have budgeted $401,000. That is like $133,000 less. Are there people being laid off, or what?

MR. MURPHY: Let me say to the member that in that particular area we have - if the member remembers the Budget Speech, Minister Baker talked about the merging of the administrative end of Employment and Labour Relations, Tourism, Culture and Recreation and Environment. That is where that saving is.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good. That was short. The same section, .12, Information Technology. You had budgeted $509,000, you spent $509,000, and you have $867,000; that is over $300,000 more this year. Why would you need that?

MS. FRY: (Inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: Okay, yes. I want to thank the Deputy Minister. We are moving up, of course, as the member knows, into the computer age, and that is where those particular dollars - we are going to be able to interlink with all other departments and what have you, so there is a little more money in capital this year going out into that particular area. I think, in the long run, it will make us more efficient.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under section 2.1.01, next page, Administration. Salaries. There is a reverse this time. You had $522,000 budgeted, you spent $500,000, and you are gone up to $633,000. That is $133,000 more than you spent last year.

MR. MURPHY: Let me say to the member that we have a new program called preventative mediation at the department which has been extremely successful, in conjunction with the Strategic Economic Plan. Perhaps - I don't know if the Assistant Deputy Minister might want - if the member might want to expound upon it, but we took on some more people to administer that program, and basically what it is, I say to the member, is to get in on the labour relations problems very, very early and deal with them so that they don't become chronic and fester, and get out of sorts on us.

We are continuing to expand that program. Hopefully, it will do a lot to improve labour relations and I would happy to give the member further information on the program if he would want to explore it further.

MR. J. BYRNE: Fine, I would appreciate that.

Under the same section, Grants and Subsidies, you had budgeted $25,000, spent $3,500, and now you have $120,000 in for that.

MR. MURPHY: Let me say to the member that our Labour Relations Education and Research Centre is now on stream and that would pick up most of that funding, and our Labour Management Co-operation Fund, I don't know if that falls under that heading or not.

AN HON. MEMBER: It does.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, okay, and they were approved in the SEP also, the Strategic Economic Plan, as being part of the new labour relations mode.

MR. J. BYRNE: Did you say SEP?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, Strategic Economic Plan, I say to the member.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, I thought that meant strip employment program.

Section 2.1.02, Professional Services, you had $111,800 budgeted, spent $211,800 and have $211,800 in again this year - doubled almost.

MR. MURPHY: Well, let me say to the member that this is one of the areas that indicates the need to address the - this is the Labour Relations Board, and the cost of doing business at that board seems to be consistently going up, up, up. That is why one of the areas in our Exploring Options document deals with labour relations in a general sense, and specifically with the Labour Relations Board.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that salaries for the Labour Relations Board?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, the members of the board.

AN HON. MEMBER: Not staff.

MR. MURPHY: Not staff.

MR. J. BYRNE: Members of the board.

MR. MURPHY: Members of the board. So it is becoming an expensive area. I guess it comes because of both sides getting more and more involved in issues and what have you.

MR. J. BYRNE: So what way are those people paid? Are they paid as members, or -

MR. MURPHY: They are paid the figure per diem. There are quite a few members of the Labour Relations Board, and if the member would like to see who is on the board, then he can always contact me.

MR. J. BYRNE: A list of names?

MR. MURPHY: We would be happy to supply it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Sir, you can do that for me.

Section 3.1.01, Occupational Health and Safety, basically it is the information technology again, the same answer as the last time, I would imagine.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, that is computers again, I say to the member.

MR. J. BYRNE: $28,000 up to $143,000; there is a lot of money being spent on computers.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, there is.

MR. J. BYRNE: It's the way of the future - no problem.

Section 4.1.04, Youth Employment Strategy: Salaries, you had budgeted $630,000, you spent $533,800, and you are going with $745,700 this year, which is basically over $200,000 more than you actually spent last year. What is the story on that?

MR. MURPHY: The other thing is that we didn't involve - and I am sure the member would agree that we should -

MR. J. BYRNE: Don't be sure of that.

MR. MURPHY: The CIRCs, the information centres I talked about, in Gander and Corner Brook, last year were not in place and a saving of $259,000 in that whole project was not expended last year. So the salaries to staff those two offices are included in this year's budget, and $50,000, that is specifically to deal with salaries, I say to the member.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under the same section, .10, Grants and Subsidies, you had budgeted $1,887,000, you spent $1,800,000, and you only have $805,000 in this year. What is happening? What is being cut there?

MR. MURPHY: There was $1 million there carry-over from Social Services, I say to the member. It was $505,050 for the linkages program - that was carried over. That came over from the Department of Social Services, and was utilized, in other words, administered, by our department. This year we won't be doing that.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you are saying, in 1994-1995, that $1 million, which was $1.8 million -

MR. MURPHY: Actually, it was $1 million -

MR. J. BYRNE: - was carried over from 1993-1994. Is that what you are saying?

MR. MURPHY: No, what I'm saying to the member is that we received $1,050,000 from the Department of Social Services and we administered that particular money through Youth Employment Strategies. This year, that funding will not come over from Social Services, subsequently reducing our expenditure down to $805,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: So somebody is going to be missing $1 million this year - the youth?

MR. MURPHY: No, the -

MR. J. BYRNE: The grants and subsidies for the youth employment program?

MR. MURPHY: That is our regular funding, the $805,900. We will not have at our disposal this year the $1,050,000 that came over from Social Services.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, that is a good point. Will it be in Social Services? Will they have that money this year, or is it a cut to Social Services?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, they are going to administer it themselves.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Section 4.1.06: Older Worker Programs, Salaries: $237,000 budgeted, $160,000 spent, and $236,000 budgeted again this year. Why would you budget $236,000 if you only spent $160,000, with respect, when you talk about balancing the Budget and what have you, you know? It is $100,000 -

MR. MURPHY: It seems to me, I say to the member, that was a couple of positions that we - I stand to be corrected on this, and I'm checking it with my officials - but we had some additional staff that we were going to put in place which obviously didn't go in place, and this year, I think -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: Yes, people associated with the TAGS program which will start this year, I say to the member.

MR. J. BYRNE: In all the Estimates Committee meetings I have attended so far, this is the fourth one this year - a couple of years ago, of course, two or three years ago, government had a major lay off throughout the various government departments. It seems to me that a substantial number of people who were laid off are gradually being hired back. Is that so?

MR. MURPHY: No, only within the system, the re-employment part of the Public Service Commission within the collective agreement for those who are in the bargaining unit. Even our administrative staff and/or supervisory staff have an opportunity under our system with our friends down on Forest Avenue, the Public Service Commission. I'm sure the member would agree, that if we have competent people within the service who have been classified as redundant for one reason or another, if we can find an area to place those people with other departments because of their expertise or not, we should strive to do that if they've given of their years.

MR. J. BYRNE: I think you missed the point.

MR. MURPHY: Well, perhaps I have missed the point.

MR. J. BYRNE: I was saying this is the fourth Committee meeting. It seems to me that there are a number of people being hired back into the system in various departments. A few years ago we had a major lay-off. To me this was just - was the major lay-off an effort in futility? Did you see the mistake you made when you laid off too many people, and now you need them all back? That is what I am asking.

MR. MURPHY: No, I don't see that. What I sense in dealing with employees from our department is that we do everything we can to accommodate competent people. If they are classified and shown as being redundant and we have positions that we identify that these people can fill, then we do everything we can to try to make sure that these people are looked after.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good.

MR. MURPHY: I don't know if the member disagrees with that.

MR. J. BYRNE: I don't disagree with that policy. I'm disagreeing with what you did before and your trying to repair the problem now.

I have only a few questions left, Mr. Chairman, so I could finish up in a few minutes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, by leave, if -

MR. FITZGERALD: I just have a couple as well.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Alright. Carry on, Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Section 4.1.07, the Emergency Response Program: $4.7 million spent. I see you have nothing in the budget again this year for it. I know their answer is going to be: Well, it wouldn't be an emergency response program if we had it in the budget. As far as I'm concerned, you should have triple that in the budget. Are you planning on the same thing - going to be crucified again all Fall and then bring something in next January that is not going to be sufficient?

MR. MURPHY: Being crucified, as the member knows, is nothing new for the minister.

MR. J. BYRNE: You might deserve it, you know.

MR. MURPHY: That is part of the game. I say to the member, my mother would disagree, but probably everybody else may agree.

MR. J. BYRNE: The people out there will be crucified, too.

MR. MURPHY: I think the member knows that this program - all governments over the years, have tried as best they can within their ability to deal with it. It is not in the budget. As the member knows, the budget is a guesstimate. Departmental officials have told Treasury Board that $4.72 million is probably where it will be. It may be less, it may be more. At this particular time, until we complete the operation, I say to the member, there is not much more I can say about it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Section 4.1.08.09, Hibernia Training - Offshore Fund, Allowances and Assistance: you have $1,539,000 budgeted, $250,000 spent, and you have $600,000. There are some drastic differences there. How do you explain that?

MR. MURPHY: I agree. I had the same concern, and I addressed it to my Deputy Minister. I haven't heard a better answer from anybody else so I will ask her if she would be kind enough to give the member the same answer.

MS. FRY: I would be happy to. This fund was established several years ago to ensure that when people had an opportunity to get work on Hibernia, they had the opportunity to get training allowances. This is income support. The training dollars are actually provided in the Department of Education and Training.

We operate on an estimate basis from the contractors in terms of how many and what types of jobs they think will be created. As you know, people who are in receipt of unemployment insurance, who go to work, continue to receive income support through UI. Likewise, people who are receiving social assistance or some kind of public support, continue to receive it while they train. There was a concern at that time raised by people that there might be some persons who would what we call fall through the cracks and be on neither UI or social assistance. This fund was established to provide income support for those people if, in fact, they had an opportunity to work.

The first year we did it - and this goes back two years - we estimated, based on the contractors' numbers, 26 per cent was an estimate of people who would fall between the cracks. That didn't happen. Our numbers came down to about 17 per cent. Then we estimated this past year that 17 per cent would fall between the cracks, and in fact they didn't. We only actually spent about $250,000. This current year's estimate, lower again, based on the two years' experience we've had, we expect fewer people to fall between the cracks and need to access this income support. They are getting it from either HRD or social assistance.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, in actual fact, that $600,000, quite possibly there would be less than $250,000 of that spent this year, so it will be a surplus for you.

MS. FRY: It could be, although again, we are operating on contractors' estimates this year of the type of training and the type of people they believe they will need. So, it is the best estimate. This money comes from the Offshore Development Fund, so if it isn't spent it remains in the Offshore Development Fund for use in other areas.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Section 4.1.09, Strategic Initiatives, grants and subsidies, $4,800,000 this year, and you have $8,350,000 next year, and you didn't have any budgeted at all.

MR. MURPHY: That is a new initiative, I say to the member. That is the federal/provincial initiative that I talked about earlier, and the cost-sharing one. If the member looks down he will see the amount voted is $8,600,000 and the revenue from that particular program is $5,300,000 from the feds and $3,300,000 from the provincial; that is a 70/30 cost-shared initiative.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to the last one in the estimates, 6.1.01, Workers' Compensation Review, professional services, $427,000 budgeted, $320,000 spent, and $221,000 estimated for this upcoming year. That is quite a drop, 50 per cent.

MR. MURPHY: Well, I think the member - and it has been highlighted in the last few days -

MR. J. BYRNE: I really had to resist that time.

MR. MURPHY: No, let me say to the member that that particular issue is outside of what we see here and we will address it, or if the member wants to address that issue that is fine also, but under the old appeal tribunal the experience of government in the 1993-'94 fiscal year was an indicator that $427,000 was going to be the amount of money that was needed to carry the old appeal tribunal system at $65 an hour. What is surprising in here is that we caught all the backlog with $107,000 less this year, and reduced it down with the $500 caseload cost, and the budget this year would indicate that if you take away the stipend on professional services of $6,000 that we would have 430 cases, leaving $215,000 because there is $6,000 in there that is gone, that is committed to the Chief Review Commissioner, and that again is very -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: The deputy makes a very good point that under the old system we had three people involved in the hearings; now it is only one, and I would be surprised if we came back here next year and we were all here sitting in the same seats, that that particular amount of $221,000 I would suggest to the member is high, to say the least, and the professional services would probably be somewhere close to $160,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Under Departmental Salary Details - Page 135.

MR. MURPHY: Page 135.

MR. J. BYRNE: The third one down, administrative support, you have permanent and other adjustments, $138,551; what is that? It seems to be a lot of money.

MR. MURPHY: That $138,551 is the amount of money that we talked about earlier. It represents the savings in the administrative area due to the merger between the three departments.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, okay.

Occupational Health and Safety, you have overtime and other earnings of $66,500. That is a fair chunk of bucks also.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, well, it is under that heading. Let me say to the member that in that particular area we have a lot of inspectors out there in the field, and sometimes we generate some overtime because of the nature of the inspection work and/or investigative work and what have you that takes place at different times.

MR. J. BYRNE: Would that overtime be anything related back to - if memory serves me right, last fall or last spring you were going to cut out some inspection people with your department. What was that? Were they electrical inspectors or something?

MR. MURPHY: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: Fire inspectors or something? Are we spending overtime money now to compensate for people who were laid off?

MS. FRY: (Inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: The Deputy Minister tells me that it has nothing to do with the electrical inspection people. This is $13,000 in overtime that would come through normal inspections. The other funding is car allowances. We have a lot of our inspectors who use - and that is in that vote - their own cars at I think it is $0.23.5, or $0.24, $0.25 a kilometre.

MR. J. BYRNE: Are you saying it is $53,000 for cars?

MR. MURPHY: No, on travel time, I meant to say.

MR. J. BYRNE: Overtime & Other Earnings.

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: So it is travel time -

MR. MURPHY: Car allowances.

MR. J. BYRNE: - and car allowances.

MR. MURPHY: And travel time, I say to the member. I think that is pretty standard in any department.

MR. J. BYRNE: Maybe, maybe. Next one I have - there is only one more - Employment Services. Permanent & Other Adjustments, $162,259. Another large chunk of money.

MR. MURPHY: We saved $162,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: You saved.

MR. MURPHY: Is that the figure the member is talking about?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, $162,259.

MR. MURPHY: Permanent & Other Adjustments.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Yes. I'm trying to get my officials to pick it up.... Let me turn this over to the Deputy Minister who has a better explanation than I probably would. I don't want to muddle the member's mind.

MR. J. BYRNE: You wouldn't want to lead me astray or anything like that, no.

MR. MURPHY: I wouldn't want to muddle the member's mind.

MR. J. BYRNE: I see. You would have a job to do that to me, Sir.

MS. FRY: This is savings associated with the fact that some of the staff in the Employment Services division are actually assigned to other divisions at the present time and their positions will not be back-filled. So that those are some planned savings that we have for this year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you Mr. Minister for your answers.

MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Minister, back at page 218 in the Estimates. Just to refer back to that for a moment there, 4.1.08. It shows there, Amount to be Voted, .01, federal revenue, $1,191,500. Out of that last year we spent $250,000 and this year there is less than $500,000 there. Is that all federal funds?

MR. MURPHY: It is 75/25.

MR. FITZGERALD: Well, why would we have fallen so short there? Is it a situation where we had enough people trained for the Hibernia project? It seems like it was a golden opportunity for us to take advantage of some training and we only used 25 per cent of our own funding. We fell a lot short there.

MR. MURPHY: This is income support I say to the hon. member and they had a lot of their allowances come from other directions.

MR. FITZGERALD: Like UI or something like that?

MR. MURPHY: Exactly. It is all income support as the member can appreciate and we cannot use it. We do not have the authority to use it.

MR. FITZGERALD: Would that be the same explanation for down in 4.1.09 federal revenue, where there was nothing budgeted and $1,300,000 spent and another $5 million brought forward this year? Would we have received 75/25 for both of those figures as well now?

MR. MURPHY: That particular program is 50/50, and I made a note here for clarification that $2 million of that, I say to the member, is in social services.

MR. FITZGERALD: So that will be some form of training where people now getting social services will be able to go and access it?

MR. MURPHY: That was into the three programs, I say to the member, that I initially described in my opening remarks, strategic initiatives.

MR. FITZGERALD: The strategic initiatives program?

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

I will be happy, as the member asked for, when we get this ready now to go, we will get all hon. members a copy. You asked about how we are getting that message out.

MR. FITZGERALD: Some of those programs are new to me as well and I have very little information on them, so I would like to have some information.

MR. MURPHY: The Member for St. John's East Extern, and probably this member would have liked to see less criteria involved in the Employment Generation Program. I sent out a kit, I guess, or a package to each member, and we will do the same on this. It was helpful at the time. The criteria is another issue, but I think the member will agree that that kind of a kit is very helpful to give members an opportunity to understand exactly what we are up to, so we will be doing the same on this particular program, I say to the member and it will make his job a lot easier.

MR. FITZGERALD: And it will make me more aware of some of the programs as well for sure.

Mr. Minister, in the beginning when the job creation program was brought about one of the excuses that government continued to use was that it wasn't right, it was unlawful, to bring forward make work projects to qualify people to receive unemployment insurance.

MR. MURPHY: Did you say unlawful?

MR. FITZGERALD: Well, it was not falling within the guidelines why people would be considered for unemployment insurance, because what you were doing was creating a program just to qualify people to receive unemployment insurance. That was one of the excuses that was continually brought forward, that we have to get away from this, and with the new rules and regulations that people were not qualified. By the same token now you go out and state that because of your employment program it may be a situation where the number of work weeks required to qualify in the metropolitan region may have risen from thirteen to fourteen, that you would have no problem with that whatsoever, you would move some slippage money in there, you would give them an extra week, and you would have them qualified to receive unemployment insurance. I wonder how you could have the double standard.

MR. MURPHY: First of all, I think the member is probably referring to an article that was in The Express. We would like to think that our program changed and that we generated enough employment in the urban area of St. John's to change the numbers and that was suggested in that article, I say to the member. I know that it is not reality. It came up because of other initiatives that the private sector brought forward. We did exceptionally well, I say to the member, in St. John's in February. Our unemployment numbers improved more than anticipated. Subsequently, they improved enough to change the qualifying period for UI within the urban structure.

We did have some funding that was left over, as - and I want to thank him - the Member for St. John's East Extern mentioned, some of his money came back and that gave us an opportunity to provide a few weeks for those who needed a seventh week in St. John's. There are quite a few people who did not need seven weeks, who only needed four or what have you and they had already qualified but we did have some people who needed that extra week. That situation, as I said to the member earlier, with development corporations and town councils who identified people with five, they would provide, at their expense, another week. The member knows that because I accommodated him in his district and other members, not me but we did, through the program. Once we got the letter guaranteeing that we could work then we could provide the other six weeks.

For example, the Bonavista area - which the member knows very well - came up to thirteen weeks. We would have addressed that problem in the same scenario within the budget restrictions and limitations that we had. Having some monies available we would have been more than happy to respond. Some people deem us as not having enough sympathy here. I think that we have tried to apply ourselves under the Cabinet criteria that was laid down to the department.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, personally I got a big problem and I would like to know your thoughts on it, is this foolishness, every time that there is a program brought forward the first thing that comes out is that somebody is using the minister to say that the fisherpersons and the plant workers are the responsibility of the federal government and everybody else is the responsibility of the provincial government. We are all Newfoundlanders, if there is a need there. Getting back to your program again where you had brought in some criteria that stated that if you had been eligible for TAGS then you are not eligible to take part in this particular program. Well if I was eligible for TAGS and if I had been cut off December 31, I was still left without unemployment insurance, without an income and without a job. I am wondering how you can say those things and exclude those people when we are all Newfoundlanders looking for the most honest thing to do, I suppose, look for a job and provide for our families?

MR. MURPHY: Well let me say this to the member, this is an issue that I find totally non-political. I think we all have a responsibility, fifty-two of us here in the House of Assembly, to respond. If the member remembers at that time, I as the minister responsible would always refer him to the Axworthy Paper. I am sure the member will agree, knowing his background as he knows mine, prior to our life in politics and having been involved in the ground fish industry, that we always said as a provincial government, and I am sure other provincial governments, that it was a federal responsibility dealing with the resource in the offshore.

We had accepted our responsibility to some degree, in dealing with those who could not find employment. We wanted to drive home to the feds that they had a responsibility in the TAGS program. I would agree that it really does not matter if you don't have any income. I think the member also understands that government 1994-95, 1995-96 is very restrained, very limited in its ability to find funding for all of the agencies and/or departments that need the money, and I would suggest to the member that we did well in finding the amount of funding that we did. We are going to learn something from this program, and I think I know where the member is coming from and I do have some sympathy for his problem.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, since you did so well, and you figure you did such a good job, my final question is: Would you mind telling me who the special committee of Cabinet was that brought in the criteria?

MR. MURPHY: It is very vague. Perhaps it will come to me and I will let the member know some time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: In another century. Thank you, Mr. Minister. Thank you, Mr. Fitzgerald.

I will ask the Clerk if she will now call the subheads, inclusive.

On motion, 1.1.01 through 6.1.01, carried.

On motion, Department of Employment and Labour Relations, total heads, carried.

MR. CHAIRMAN: This concludes our duty for this term, my friends. The four departments that have been assigned to us have now been completed, so I thank you for your co-operation. I thank the Committee for their co-operation. I thank the minister and his staff this morning for coming to help us complete this.

Mr. Walsh.

MR. WALSH: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a correction to the Minutes of our previous meeting, although they have been approved. For the record, I would just like the record to show that I was in attendance, although when we moved and approved the Minutes my name was left off of our last meeting. Just for the record, I want to show that I was in attendance.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Walsh. I will ask the Clerk to add that. Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would like to go on record as saying that I believe there were three hours set aside for these committee meetings, and to move the agenda half-way through, I think, is an abuse of the power of the Committee.

Thank you.

MR. CRANE: Next year if we are here, I would like to get Jack Byrne on the committee and have Roger on another committee.

MR. CHAIRMAN: A motion for adjournment is in order now.

On motion, Committee adjourned.