May 2,
2017
HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS
Vol. XLVIII No. 11
The
House met at 1:30 p.m.
MR. SPEAKER (Osborne):
Order, please!
Admit
strangers.
I'm
rising at this time to speak to a point of order which was raised yesterday,
just prior to the closing of the Legislature.
This
point of order under Standing Order 49 was raised by the Leader of the Official
Opposition with respect to language used in debate by the Minister of Municipal
Affairs and Environment.
Standing
Order 49, which was cited by the Official Leader of the Opposition, states in
part, No Member shall
use offensive words against any Member of the House.
O'Brien
and Bosc discusses unparliamentary language at page 618, stating that the use
of offensive, provocative or threatening language in the House is strictly
forbidden. Personal attacks, insults and obscenities are not in order.
Any
statements made during debate must be considered within the context of which
they are made and the manner and tone in which they are delivered. Again, as
stated in O'Brien and Bosc at page 618,
the Speaker must rule on the basis of
the context in which the language was used
.
The
video recording from Monday has been reviewed and I find that there has been no
direct personal attack used by the minister against another Member.
I find
that there is no point of order. This was simply a heated exchange during the
course of debate. However, I must remind all Members that during debate, all
comments must be directed to the Chair.
In
addition, I ask that Members be cautious in debate with respect to referring to
former members of the House by name as they are no longer in a position to
defend themselves in this Legislature.
Finally,
the Speaker of the House of Commons on December 9, 1980 the House of Commons
Debates at page 5534 stated: the characteristics of parliamentary language
are good temper and moderation
.
This too
applies to Members of this hon. House during debate and I ask that all Members
keep this foremost in mind when making remarks in our Legislature.
Today, I
welcome to the Speaker's gallery Jacob Elyk from Harbour Grace, who is job
shadowing the Member for Harbour Grace Port de Grave. Jacob is entering his
fourth year of political science in the co-op program.
Welcome.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
Statements by
Members
MR. SPEAKER:
For Members' statements
today, we have the Members for the Districts of Conception Bay South, St.
George's Humber, St. John's Centre, Baie Verte Green Bay, Lewisporte
Twillingate and Fogo Island Cape Freels.
The hon.
the Member for the District of Conception Bay South.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. PETTEN:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr.
Speaker, on April 5, I had the pleasure of attending the CBS Lions Club 46th
Anniversary Charter Night.
Since
1971, CBS Lions Club has spearheaded numerous initiatives such as: Citizen of
the Year, our first arena, swimming pool, playgrounds, Topsail soccer field
lights and donated the first fire truck. Also, Lions awarded two sight dogs,
fundraised for a kidney transplant recipient and recently helped a young lady
obtain a prosthetic leg.
Thousands of dollars are awarded annually to organizations within and outside
the community such as the literacy program, food bank, school scholarships,
breakfast programs, Ronald McDonald House, Janeway Telethon, Cancer Society,
sight programs, diabetes programs and Lion Max Simms Memorial Camp. They also
support the initiatives of two CBS Scout troops and manage a housing complex.
Saturday, May 6, is Lions Day of Service where you will see fellow Lions
volunteering within our community. The CBS Lions Club are always welcoming new
members and this year marks the 100th anniversary for Lions International.
Where there's a need, there's a Lion.
Mr.
Speaker, I ask all hon. Members to join me in congratulating the CBS Lions Club
for their continued dedication and hard work assisting the people of our
community.
Thank
you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for St.
George's Humber.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. REID:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise
in this hon. House today to acknowledge the late Private George Edward Brake of
the Newfoundland Regiment, 2716.
It was
100 years ago this past week, when on April 23, 1917 at Les Fosses Farm, not far
from Monchy-Le Preux, France, during what was to be the Newfoundland Regiment's
last engagement of the Battle of Arras, that Private Brake, serving with A
Company, was wounded by shell fire. Eventually evacuated to the eight casualty
clearing station at Agenz-lιs-Duisans, Private Brake died on April 25, 1917 and
is buried at Duisans British Cemetery.
Private
Brake received the British War Medal and the Victory Medal, which is an
Inter-Allied War Medal. The son of Aaron and Jessie Louisa Brake of Meadows
Point, Bay of Islands, he was born September 3, 1890 and was also the foster
child of Mrs. Annie Mercer of Birchy Head, Bonne Bay. He had five siblings two
brothers who also served in World War I with the US services. The war memorial
in Curling and the one in Bonne Bay at Woody Point both honour the sacrifice of
Private Brake.
I ask
all Members to join me in acknowledging the contribution of Private Brake and
all those who serve and continue to serve.
Thank
you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. Member for St.
John's Centre.
MS. ROGERS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
It's
Mental Health Week and I am thrilled to announce that our province's Community
Coalition 4 Mental Health held an empowered and energetic Mayday town hall on
mental health and addictions last night.
Community members with lived experience with mental illness, their families,
representatives from at least a dozen NGOs, dedicated Eastern Health
professionals and front-line staff from the Department of Advanced Education and
Skills, university professors, teachers and guidance counsellors all came
together last night to analyze the recommendations offered by the newly released
report from the All-Party Committee on Mental Health and Addictions. Everyone
sprung into action. Words like hope and momentum and accountability were
heard again and again. Careful notes from each table were shared and submitted
and future meetings enthusiastically planned.
The
Community Coalition continues to prove that there is no limit to what can be
done when both collaboration and inclusion are prioritized. I think Geraldine
Hollett, who presented the Inclusion Choir with a Music NL Award for 10 years of
positive community empowerment only a few weeks ago, summed up what Mental
Health Week is all about: You bring light to darkness. You offer hope for a
better world for us all
You inspire
and continue to do so every time you
collectively open your mouths.
Bravo to
the CC4MH!
Thank
you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. Member for Baie
Verte Green Bay.
MR. WARR:
Mr. Speaker, I rise in this
hon. House today to recognize Life Unlimited for Older Adults, an important
community organization in my district that is helping adults 50 years of age and
older lead happy, active and healthy lives.
Based in
Springdale, and open to residents from Springdale and surrounding communities,
the goal of Life Unlimited for Older Adults is to engage older adults in
planning and promoting social, recreational and educational activities to
encourage healthy living.
Life
Unlimited for Older Adults offers several programs and services, and their
benefits to seniors cannot be understated. One such program is Care 2 Ride, a
volunteer driver program for older adults and people with mobility issues, which
provides transportation to appointments and social events to those that
otherwise would have none.
Life
Unlimited for Older Adults also organizes socials and birthday parties, exercise
programs such as Walk the Rock, lifestyle clinics, lifelong learning
opportunities, tours and excursions, and much more.
In
honour of their important work and the services they provide to seniors across
my district, I ask all hon. Members to join me today in recognizing Life
Unlimited for Older Adults.
Thank
you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for
Lewisporte Twillingate.
MR. D. BENNETT:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise
in this hon. House to recognize the outstanding performances and sportsmanship
of the Lewisporte Seahawks and Twillingate-New World Island Combine Minor Hockey
Associations during this past year's provincial tournaments.
All
teams represented their communities with great pride, taking home a total of
eight silver medals. In addition, the Twillingate-New World Island Atom
Combines captured the gold in an exciting 6-5 overtime win against the Corner
Brook Royals in the championship game.
Playing for the Atom Combines include: Forrester Baggs,
Katie Baggs, Avery Blackler, Adam Bowie, Hunter Brown, Sadie Brown, Cassie Burt,
Kiera Canning, Cassidy Compton, Evan Dove, Leah Gillard, Chloe Hillier, Jake
Holwell, Patrick Ings, Carter Lambert, Kaitlyn Rogers, and Siehera Shea. Head
coach was Nathan Hull; assistant coaches Patti Hicks Brown, Lee Baggs and Jeff
Gillard. Trainer was Guy Lambert; and director, Jocelyn Lambert.
I ask all Members in this hon. House to join me in thanking
the dedicated volunteers who worked so diligently to organize these sporting
events and to congratulate the Atom Combines in capturing the provincial
championship.
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The
hon. the Member for Fogo Island Cape Freels.
MR. BRAGG:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
It's
always a pleasure to rise in this hon. House and inform my fellow colleagues of
the super people in my district. Today I have a story of boys being boys.
On
September 5, 1996 a group of young Fogo boys were playing on Sylvester Ford's
wharf. Four-year-old Todd Freak slipped and fell into the water and started to
drift out from shore. Everyone started yelling and running for help. Adam Payne,
who was eight years old at the time, grabbed hold of a mooring line, pulled
himself out to Todd, grabbed hold of him, and pulled both of them back to shore.
As you
can imagine, people were running to help and were very surprised to see both
boys safe. A lady watching from across the harbour witnessed it all.
While
visiting in Fogo Island last week, I had the privilege to meet Adam Payne. I'm
happy to say that after 20 years, Mayor Shea, the members of the Fogo Island
Town Council and I had the opportunity to present Adam with the Newfoundland and
Labrador Award for Bravery.
I ask
all Members to join me in thanking Adam Payne for this honourable act.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
Statements by Ministers.
Statements by
Ministers
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Minister of
Fisheries and Land Resources.
MR. CROCKER:
Mr. Speaker, I rise today to
remind residents that forest fire season started yesterday on the Island and
will start in Labrador on May 15.
Residents planning to burn brush as part of clean-up activities should be aware
of how quickly fire can spread beyond their property.
Mr.
Speaker, last year, 91 fires were reported in this province, burning almost
11,000 hectares. Half of those fires were caused by residents. The majority
occurred during spring when many people were burning brush. Some of these fires
were preventable.
Reducing
the number of human-caused fires is an integral component of our fire prevention
program. A permit to burn is required under the
Forestry Act and can be obtained at no cost at forestry management
offices. The lighting of fires for cooking and camping does not require a
permit; however, certain regulations must be followed.
Mr.
Speaker, we ask residents to be Firesmart. May 6 is National Wildfire Community
Preparedness Day and communities are encouraged to particulate in mitigation
projects to help reduce the risk of wildfire damage to homes and neighbourhoods.
Mr.
Speaker, a toll-free number is available to report wildfires. The number is
1-866-709-FIRE (3473).
Thank
you very much, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for Cape
St. Francis.
MR. K. PARSONS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I thank
the minister for an advance copy of his statement. Mr. Speaker, it's a good time
to take the opportunity, particularly this time of year when people are cleaning
up around their properties, to remind residents that brush fires can be very
dangerous and very destructive.
It's
troubling to hear that half the fires reported last year were caused by
residents, that some of them could have been prevented. It's important to raise
awareness on this issue, and every effort should be made to reduce the number of
these fires. We also encourage all residents to be fire smart.
Thank
you very much, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for St.
John's East Quidi Vidi.
MS. MICHAEL:
Thank you very much, Mr.
Speaker.
I, too,
thank the minister for the advance copy of his statement. I am glad to see
information going to residents about wildfire prevention. The minister notes
that camp fires are subject to certain regulation, but I wonder how well known
these regulations are. I urge the minister to look at the need for more public
education about that.
Thank
you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Minister of
Municipal Affairs and Environment.
MR. JOYCE:
Mr. Speaker, I rise in hon.
House today to highlight an amendment to the schedule of the
Citizens' Representative Act. This amendment will allow the
Citizens' Representative jurisdiction over regional service boards and ensure
that residents, municipalities and businesses have a mechanism to address
concerns they may have with the boards.
Regional
service boards are independent entities established under the Regional Service
Board Act to provide waste management services. They are responsible for setting
rates for those services based on cost recovery. This amendment provides the
Citizens' Representative the authority to assist the boards in addressing
complaints or grievances from stakeholders.
Mr.
Speaker, by enabling the Citizens' Representative to become more involved in
addressing the concerns of individuals in a timely manner, we are promoting
greater accountability and transparency in the operations of the regional
service boards. This will improve satisfaction with waste management services
among residents throughout our province.
I
encourage anyone who has questions about this new development, or would like to
avail of the Citizens' Representative's assistance, please call the Office of
the Citizens' Representative at 1-800-559-0079, or email at
citrep@gov.nl.ca.
Thank
you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for Cape
St. Francis.
MR. K. PARSONS:
Thank you very much, Mr.
Speaker.
I want
to thank the minister for an advance copy of his statement. I noticed this
announcement a couple of weeks ago prior to the House of Assembly closing for
Easter. To be truthful, I have more questions than comments related to the
Ministerial Statement. One question will be concerning the availability of
resources for the Citizens' Representative who will have jurisdiction now over
the regional service boards.
We know
the great work that the Citizens' Representative does on behalf of the people of
this province. I'm hopeful that government will consider the impact on the
office.
I look
forward to learning more about the amendment and its impact on residents,
businesses, municipalities and the regional service boards in the province.
Thank
you very much, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for St.
John's East Quidi Vidi.
MS. MICHAEL:
Thank you very much, Mr.
Speaker.
I too
thank the minister for an advance copy of his statement. I certainly support
this expansion of jurisdiction to include regional service boards. Now if a
person or a community has an issue with their board they will able to ask the
Citizens' Representative for help in resolving it, but I do urge the minister to
monitor the consequences of expanding the Citizens' Representative's mandate to
see if an increased workload in that office will require additional resources in
the future.
Thank
you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
Oral Questions.
Oral Questions
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr.
Speaker, Mr. Bern Coffey, the former clerk, has referred publicly to an
arrangement he made with the Premier to continue his law practice. Now, the
Premier has referenced an arrangement for Mr. Coffey to wind down his law
practice, two very different statements.
I ask
the Premier: Which one of those statements is correct?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
When Mr.
Coffey was hired, as I mentioned yesterday in many responses, the first that
there were a number of things that were done; one, he met with the Department of
Justice to get some recommendations on how the flow of material should happen.
He outlined the number of cases and there was a limited number, seven, that he
would continue on representing the individual clients, taking on no new matters,
no new files, no new clients. So it was always the view that he would transition
out of his private practice, Mr. Speaker.
When you
look at Mr. Coffey's situation as being a sole proprietor, a lawyer practising
literally by himself, it would have taken some time. So we understand that the
appropriate measures were put in place, the conflict walls, as was mentioned.
Added to
that, in the contract itself, in his employment contract, we made provision,
particularly in section 11 that you can refer to, that if there was anything
that would have changed in terms of progress, if he felt that he was in conflict
in any matter that he would declare that conflict, as is the onus on everyone in
this House of Assembly. Mr. Speaker, it was always the view of the former clerk
to get out of his law practice.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Again
today the Premier just simply has not answered the question.
I ask
the Premier this: What's your response to comments made by Democracy Watch that
your decision to hire Mr. Coffey was unethical?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Democracy Watch, I think the gentleman's name was Mr. Conacher. He's made
similar comments about decisions that you would have made, I would say, in your
former capacity here, Mr. Speaker, but he also went on to say that you would
speak to some special arrangements.
He went
on to say that what we have here is weak legislation. As a matter of fact, he
blamed it on the legislation within this current Legislature, Mr. Speaker. It's
a 25-year-old piece of legislation. He went on to say it was not illegal that
anything that would have happened, that these the conflict walls that were put
in place in this particular case around the procedures that were put there.
Mr.
Speaker, it was always Mr. Coffey's view to get out of his law practice. We just
ran out of time in the transition. As it happened, he tendered his resignation
and is very clear that this human resources issue that we dealt with yesterday,
or Sunday in this particular case he just ran out of time to transition fully
out of his private law practice.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Democracy Watch didn't say it was illegal, they said it was unethical. And,
again, the Premier doesn't have an answer for that.
Yesterday, we learned that the Minister of Justice had knowledge of this matter
for some time. The Minister of Education did not know about the arrangement,
this confidential arrangement until it hit the news.
I ask
the Premier: What other ministers did you trust with this sensitive information?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Well,
number one, Mr. Coffey is the deputy minister for the Premier, as the clerk of
Executive Council. The only minister in this particular case would have been the
Minister of Health or the Health Department, as the files were related to the
Department of Health.
There
was a conversation, that I mentioned yesterday, with the deputy minister, but
everyone in Cabinet was aware that Mr. Coffey was there. Everyone understood. We
worked with the man on a daily basis. And at any particular point in time, a
conflict of interest, the onus is always on that individual.
Mr.
Speaker, with the Nalcor file as an issue because this was raised; I heard
about it in the media. I made no secret of that. When you look at section 11,
there were provisions there for that to occur in writing. When I asked Mr.
Coffey about that, he didn't feel he was in a conflict because he would not be
representing that client on a file which has never been served.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The
Premier says one minister knew. Are you saying the Minister of Natural Resources
wasn't aware?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The
Department of Natural Resources in this particular case here, the conversations
that Mr. Coffey would have had with the appropriate deputy ministers in this
case, there was no conflict, in his view, with the Department of Natural
Resources because there was nothing filed.
When I
asked him about this I mentioned this quite clearly on many, many times, what
happened with the statement of claim that I found out about in the media. Mr.
Coffey, his response to me was this: I'm not in a conflict. He didn't feel he
was in a conflict, simply because what he did was preserve the right of the
individual to actually go forward with the legal issue on a wrongful dismissal.
That has not been served with Nalcor, Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge, based on a
conversation this weekend.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Unbelievable, Mr. Speaker.
The Premier says the Minister of Natural Resources there was no conflict. He
did nothing to ensure that the public, the government, was looked after that
there were checks and balances to ensure and protect the public and the
Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. This is outstanding, Mr. Speaker
unbelievable.
Mr.
Speaker, I ask the Minister of Children, Seniors and Social Development: When
did you first know the former clerk was given permission by the Premier to
continue to practise law? I ask the Minister of Children.
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Well,
I'm going to answer I'm going to get up first because in the preamble that the
former premier, now the Leader of the Opposition, in his preamble he made
reference to which is really an unfair representation of what happened. Mr.
Speaker, as was mentioned, Mr. Coffey would have notified the appropriate
deputies. There was a list. There was no advancement on the file with Nalcor. It
didn't advance.
I made
many, many comments that that was sitting there for two years. What happened is
when the statement of claim was filed, it merely gave the client the opportunity
to pursue a wrongful dismissal case. It has not advanced; it has been filed in
the court, Mr. Speaker. It has not been served on Nalcor. That was the question
that I asked the former clerk this weekend.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
So the
Premier confirms that the Minister of Natural Resources was not made aware of
conflict with the clerk in her own department.
Again,
I'll ask the Minister of Children, Seniors and Social Development: When did you
become aware that the former clerk was given permission by the Premier to
continue to act as the clerk while he was in a conflict of interest?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I'm not
going to sit in this House and allow the Member opposite to go on with preambles
that misrepresent what happened. I just will not allow it. I will stand. I
clearly outlined if you want to go on, Mr. Speaker, if the Member opposite
wants to go on with those preambles which don't represent what actually
happened.
There
were conflict walls that were put in place and the information that would have
come in he met with Cabinet Secretariat, outlined all the cases, met with the
Justice Department. There were provisions made in the individual's contract that
would allow in writing to me, as the Premier of the province, if indeed the
individual felt there was a conflict.
The
conflict of interest is always the responsibility of the individual. With the
Department of Health and Community Services, there was movement and he met with
the deputy minister in that particular department.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Again, I
ask the minister of Children, Seniors and Social Development to tell this hon.
House when did she first find out that the Liberal clerk was given permission to
serve as clerk while in a conflict of interest.
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Well, in
this particular case, as I've mentioned so many times, Mr. Speaker, the seven
files would have involved two departments. It would have been Health and it
would have been Natural Resources. Indeed with Natural Resources, no movement on
that file for two years. It was early April when the two-year period of
limitations had occurred.
Mr.
Coffey then, what he did on behalf of the client, he put a statement of claim,
preserving the right of the client. That has not advanced. That has not been
served on Nalcor, Mr. Speaker. That's the situation. With the Department of
Health, there was a conversation with the deputy minister at that point.
Thank
you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
In
yesterday morning's press conference, there was a question from the media asking
if Mr. Coffey was involved with a file involving C-CORE.
So I ask
the Minister of Tourism, Culture, Industry and Innovation: When were you first
told about Mr. Coffey's legal work and conflict of interest?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Minister of
Tourism, Culture, Industry and Innovation.
MR. MITCHELMORE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Any
funding that would have been appropriated to C-CORE, we've certainly made
funding available through the Department of Tourism, Culture, Industry and
Innovation, and the Research & Development Corporation and provided that upon
request.
When it
comes to any particular conflict of interest matter that's put forward, then if
there is a conflict of interest, the onus is on the individual to make that
declaration to the specific department.
Thank
you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I ask
the Minister of Tourism, Culture, Industry and Innovation: When did you first
find out about the conflict of interest matters involving the clerk?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Well, as
I mentioned yesterday, the list that was supplied, there was nothing there.
There's been no Mr. Coffey in the list that was discussed with the Cabinet
Secretariat and the Justice Department. There was nothing there with C-CORE on
that list, Mr. Speaker. We never did have that conversation. So this was
something I'm not aware of. I mentioned this yesterday, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The
Speaker is having some difficulty hearing the questions and answers. I ask
Members who are not identified to speak not to inject yourselves into the
questions or answers on the floor.
The hon.
the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I'll ask
the Minister of Fisheries and Land Resources when did he find out about the
clerk's conflict and was there any files in his department that may have been
restricted as a result.
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Minister of
Fisheries and Land Resources.
MR. CROCKER:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I thank
the hon. Member for the question. It's the responsibility of the person with the
possible conflict to make it known to the department.
Mr.
Speaker, there were no files in the former clerk's possession that had anything
to do with my department.
Thank
you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
That's
three ministers who won't answer the question. So I'll ask the Minister of
Finance, when did she learn about the conflict of interest.
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Minister of
Finance and President of Treasury Board.
MS. C. BENNETT:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I became
aware of the clerk's activity in the court cases that had been reported in the
media, in the media.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We
finally have a minister who will answer a very simple question.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. P. DAVIS:
Mr. Speaker, I'll ask the
Premier: How can we trust that the former Liberal clerk removed himself from
sensitive files where there may have been a conflict of interest?
Does the
Premier just expect us to accept that because he told us so? How are people
supposed to trust the Premier to know that the clerk removed himself?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Well,
when you look at the professionalism of any lawyer in the province, when you
look at the professionalism of physicians maybe not the Member opposite, I
don't know what his past practice was, but I have no reason to question the
integrity that Bern Coffey in any conflict of interest would remove himself,
just like I would have done when I was Leader of the Opposition a few years ago
in a significant debate in this House of Assembly.
I'm not
sure what the Member opposite is referring to. If he is saying that someone like
Bern Coffey would not remove himself, if he's questioning the integrity of the
man that has a tremendous legacy in this province, Mr. Speaker. That is what
he's questioning right now, is the integrity of the man that went through a
Cameron inquiry, made a significant impact on health care for cancer survivors
in our province.
That is
what the Member opposite is questioning right now. There is no doubt in my mind,
if there was a potential conflict of interest, Mr. Coffey would have disclosed
it.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We're
not questioning the history or integrity of the clerk; we're questioning the
judgment of the Premier on this matter, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. P. DAVIS:
Mr. Speaker, I ask the
Premier: Were you comfortable with Mr. Coffey profiting from suing Nalcor and
Western Health while he was the clerk if it was done before June 30 as you
identified yesterday?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I want
to go back to the previous comment that was made too, of course, about sworn
oath and that when you get any time a clerk that is sworn in to that
department, Mr. Speaker, we all know what happens, no different than any premier
or a minister that would be sworn in to their office.
There's
a very high level of responsibility that occurs and comes with those sworn
oaths, Mr. Speaker. I have no doubt in my mind that Mr. Coffey would have sworn
or would have brought any conflict of interest forward. There's absolutely no
doubt in my mind that would have happened.
Mr.
Speaker, when you look at his contract, when you look at the conflict walls that
were put in place, they were there for those very reasons, to support an
individual that would come forward with any conflict of interest, like anyone
else in this House.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Again, Mr. Speaker, no answer
to that question from the Premier.
Premier,
why was there no reference to the June 30 transition date, the one you spoke
about yesterday, in Mr. Coffey's contract that you say we should look at for the
terms of that agreement?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
From my
perspective at that particular point in time, we would have hoped that this
would have been done actually even sooner than that. So there was no reason in
my mind to actually put the transition date. The transition date for any
particular person might be different for any premier that would sit in this
case.
I guess
when we look at the number of files that he was able to actually shed from the
list that was provided to us, there was significant progress that was made, but
after the discussion on the weekend, Mr. Speaker, it was clear that those files
could not be dealt with in an appropriate fashion. So I felt it was appropriate
to put a timeline in place that they could be dealt with. Mr. Coffey could not
make that commitment. He is a very loyal individual to the clients. There was an
outstanding file that he had to deal with, Mr. Speaker. We just ran out of time
dealing with this transition period.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Well,
I'll try this. Premier, are there any documents, or any document whatsoever that
will establish that you had a June 30 date in place in your arrangement with the
clerk or is this something you just made up when you got caught in this conflict
of interest?
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Within
the contract, the employment contract that was disclosed yesterday, Mr. Speaker,
there was no transition period that was identified there. They were pretty
obvious. He needed to get out of this. He was going to transition the former
clerk would be transiting out of this as quickly as possible. We've always said
that.
There
were no new clients, no new matters for those individual clients. There was a
limited number. Mr. Speaker, things move through the court process, through the
justice process very slowly from time to time. It was felt that after the
discussions we had on the weekend, that he just could not get to a transition
time frame that I would feel was reasonable, Mr. Speaker.
Mr.
Coffey did what he felt was the appropriate thing to do, and we accepted the
resignation, Mr. Speaker. His resignation was received and he is no longer the
clerk for this government.
Thank
you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Opposition House
Leader.
MR. HUTCHINGS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr.
Speaker, section 9(2) of the ATIPPA legislation under public interest states:
discretionary exception shall not apply where it is clearly demonstrated that
the public interest in disclosure of the information outweighs the reason for
the exception.
I ask
the Premier: Based on the current controversy and the hiring of the clerk, isn't
it in the public interest to release the legal advice?
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Government House
Leader.
MR. A. PARSONS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I'm
happy to stand here and speak to the Opposition's request to waive
solicitor-client privilege. I know it's not something they always grasp but,
again, there's a significant amount of jurisprudence and legal work that has
been done on the concept of solicitor-client privilege. I know they're trying to
use legislation to supersede that, but the fact is solicitor-client privilege is
something that we must stand for and I hope that they understand the importance
of it.
Thank
you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Opposition House
Leader.
MR. HUTCHINGS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr.
Speaker, is the minister saying that the exception is absolute? The legislation
says you may refuse and where it's in a public interest you have the authority
to release it.
So the
question is: Why wouldn't you release it in the interest of the public to answer
some questions that we haven't received in this House from the Premier?
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Government House
Leader.
MR. A. PARSONS:
Again, thank you, Mr.
Speaker.
The fact
is that the Opposition want to breach solicitor-client privilege. I know it's
not something again, being involved in the Justice department they feel is
important, but the fact is that it is.
The
Premier has proactively released a significant amount of information, including
the contract of the clerk which clearly lays out the stipulations that Mr.
Coffey had to abide by and the stipulations that have led to his departure, the
resignation that he filed. The fact is that information was put out there early
on to show the public all the information.
Thank
you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Opposition House
Leader.
MR. HUTCHINGS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
So I'll
ask the minister: Are you saying there are no exemptions under the legislation
for you to consider to release the information we've asked for?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Government House
Leader.
MR. A. PARSONS:
Mr. Speaker, what I'm saying
is that I'm not going to breach solicitor-client privilege or ask anybody to
breach solicitor-client privilege for his benefit.
Thank
you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Opposition House
Leader.
MR. HUTCHINGS:
Okay, so he doesn't deny the
exemption exists, but in this case he's not going to exercise it in the interest
of the public to release the information.
Mr.
Speaker
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR. HUTCHINGS:
I will, yeah. You try and
answer them. Maybe start that, try and answer them.
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The
Speaker recognizes the hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR. HUTCHINGS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr.
Speaker, the Premier referenced a transition time for individuals joining
government from the private sector.
I ask
the Premier: Where is the policy, and could you table a copy?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
One of
the issues we have to deal with, with current legislation, is that there is no
prescribed timeline for transition. We've heard many Members in this House of
Assembly that would put in place, as an example, blind trusts that would impact
them as ministers and even former premiers. There are prescribed timelines for
that, but, Mr. Speaker, there are lots of examples where that just could not
have been met.
We talk
to individuals as they put business assets and sometimes personal assets that
they have to deal with to actually transition from private life into public
life, Mr. Speaker, and there is really no prescribed timelines. It's a situation
where it does evolve over time.
Mr.
Speaker, in this particular case, as I had mentioned yesterday so many times, is
that the reasonable amount of time frame for Mr. Coffey in our case, it just
didn't exist and we just ran out of time.
Thank
you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Opposition House
Leader.
MR. HUTCHINGS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr.
Speaker, as well, yesterday the Premier referenced a time frame was given to
anyone that comes from private life. What is the policy on that? Certainly, can
you release that? Can we see it?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Well,
the Member opposite is asking questions right now and after about 12 years in
government they obviously had no policy on many things, Mr. Speaker. We've seen
that for sure with Humber Valley and many other contracts that would have been
put in place.
Mr.
Speaker, in this particular case, the case we're referring to about Mr. Coffey,
there was the transition period that I wanted Mr. Coffey to actually make a full
transition into public life. We talked about June 30, Mr. Speaker. It was very
clear, in this particular case, he was not going to be able to meet that
timeline because of the client list, that he had outstanding very limited. It
made significant process, as I've said so many times, Mr. Speaker. So the
transition didn't occur and he decided to tender his resignation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for
Conception Bay East Bell Island.
MR. BRAZIL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The
minister has accused MUN of fudging its books, but national watchdogs and the
Board of Regents say MUN's reporting is sound.
I say to
the minister: Do you stand by your statement?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Minister of
Advanced Education, Skills and Labour.
MR. BYRNE:
Mr. Speaker, the
administration of Memorial University of Newfoundland did report to its Senate
on Monday, April 24.
The
numbers that were supplied by me in actual fact, supplied by MUN to the
Canadian Association of University Business Officers and to Statistics Canada,
those numbers were valid. In fact, Memorial University of Newfoundland informed
its own Senate that they would have to restate their numbers. In order to
achieve the $26,000 per student, per year figure, they would have to restate
their own figures. They would have to reduce their expenditures by $55,000 and
increase their student enrollment by 1,000 students.
That's
the statement that came from MUN to its own Senate. If it would like to correct
its own statement to the public, we'd be more than happy to receive it.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for
Conception Bay East Bell Island.
MR. BRAZIL:
Mr. Speaker, since accusing
MUN of fudging the books, have you had a face-to-face meeting with the
administration to discuss these scandalous allegations?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Minister of
Advanced Education, Skills and Labour.
MR. BYRNE:
Mr. Speaker, I have spoken
with the chair of the Board of Regents on several occasions and since their
allegations. In fact, what's happened in the last little while, these statements
that I've made were not new. In fact, I made them some months ago.
It
wasn't until there was a decision by MUN to increase revenue what this issue
is all about, Mr. Speaker, let's be very clear with each other, is that MUN has
chosen to raise, or is considering raising revenue from taxpayers or students,
one of the two, but they want to raise revenue before they look seriously at
their expenditures.
MUN had
no issue whatsoever with any statements that I was making until they found that
it contradicted their argument for raising more money from students. That's when
they brought forward a counter-argument and then they torpedoed their own
counter-argument to their own Senate.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for
Conception Bay East Bell Island.
MR. BRAZIL:
The minister's comments have
no only damaged the reputation of the university; it's displayed a lack of
confidence in the leadership.
Is the
minister preparing to fire the executive at MUN?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Minister of
Advanced Education, Skills and Labour.
MR. BYRNE:
Mr. Speaker, this is not
2008. In fact, while, yes, there is a disagreement that is occurring between
myself and the administration, this is one of the greatest universities anywhere
in North America and it is producing incredible results for our province.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. BYRNE:
But, yes, there is a
disagreement. I and this Cabinet and this government think very strongly that
before raising revenue on the backs of students, the university should consider
reducing its expenditures and disclosing its expenditures for all to see.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. Member for St.
John's East Quidi Vidi.
MS. MICHAEL:
Thank you very much, Mr.
Speaker.
Media
across Canada have reported on the Bernard Coffey resignation with headlines
such as, beyond bizarre, and Ball says he would do it all over again.
I ask
the Premier: Will government establish an ethics office to guide them on ethical
matters in the future?
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
I seldom
intervene during Question Period, but I remind the hon. Member that you're not
to refer to individuals by name, only by title or district.
The hon.
the Premier.
PREMIER BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
One of
the things, as I just mentioned a few minutes ago in a prior question, is that
there are a number of changes that we see. And when you look at the mandate
letter for the Minister for Minister of Justice and Public Safety, our House
Leader, what we've been asked to do is modernize a number of pieces of
legislation, activities around this Legislative Assembly; many of which are
outdated.
We've
made significant changes already in the last year around the Independent
Appointments Commission, around how we handle parliamentary secretaries, the way
we sit, the sitting days within the House of Assembly, the Procurement Act that
I mentioned earlier. There are a number of pieces of legislation and a number of
things that we'd like to be able to do in this House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker.
We're
going to get on to this in our mandate, Mr. Speaker, but what I do not want to
see are Members of this side of the House support and vote for their own raises,
like the Member opposite did in the Management Commission.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The hon.
the Member for St. John's East Quidi Vidi.
MS. MICHAEL:
Thank you very much, Mr.
Speaker.
Mr.
Speaker, I point out to the Premier that having an ethics officer, having an
ethics office is a very common thing in this country. And if he really wanted to
show the public how serious he is, then he would set up an ethics office.
On the
day he was hired, the former clerk sued Western Health on behalf of a client. I
ask the Minister of Health and Community Services when he was made aware of the
lawsuit and that it was the clerk who was representing the plaintiff.
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Minister of
Health and Community Services.
MR. HAGGIE:
Thank you very much for the
question, Mr. Speaker.
Western
Health is an autonomous body constituted under the RHA Act. There were
discussions, as the Premier has mentioned, between the deputy to ensure that
there were walls to preserve any apparent conflict of interest.
I think
that answers the question.
Thank
you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for St.
John's Centre.
MS. ROGERS:
Mr. Speaker, I ask the
Minister of Justice and Attorney General: After being informed by his officials,
Mr. Coffey was going to continue as a lawyer in private practice; why did he
think it was acceptable for the clerk to act as a lawyer, working contrary to
the best interests of government and the people of the province?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Government House
Leader.
MR. A. PARSONS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Certainly I was made aware very early on. The Department of Justice staff looked
into this and made recommendations on ways we could preserve this. What I can
say is that one thing I realize is that transitions happen. When I got elected
to this House of Assembly, it took me some time to clue up my own legal
practice. Some lawyers, including the former Member for the NDP, the former
leader, continued their legal practice throughout their entire career sitting in
this House of Assembly.
The fact
is that Mr. Coffey had a practice that he was winding down. He was in that
process. As the Premier stated, he never got through that. But again, he was
working through that, and that's the issue that we've dealt with here.
Thank
you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for St.
John's Centre.
MS. ROGERS:
Mr. Speaker, we are speaking
about the senior clerk here, and we're talking about cases against government
departments.
Mr.
Speaker, I ask the Minister of Justice: Why did he not refer this matter to the
Conflict of Interest Advisory Committee as created by the
Conflict of Interest Act?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Government House
Leader.
MR. A. PARSONS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Actually, I don't think that the Member opposite has read the
Conflict of Interest Act, because that's not actually how the
provision is written out. So the first thing I would direct her to is to read
the Conflict of Interest Act.
The fact
is that the Conflict of Interest Act
puts out a number of things here to speak to. One of them and again, there are
various members. In this case, Mr. Coffey spoke to Cabinet Secretariat, he spoke
to the Premier's office, spoke to a justice solicitor, and there were a number
of steps taken, including what were put out in the contract that Mr. Coffey
signed. The fact is unfortunately we have a situation now where Mr. Coffey has
resigned, and there we are.
Thank
you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for St.
John's Centre for a very quick question, no preamble.
MS. ROGERS:
Thank you very much, Mr.
Speaker.
I ask
the Minister of Justice and Attorney General: Considering the clerk's job is to
serve Cabinet, who probably knew all about this, did he think this information
should have been kept secret from his Cabinet colleagues, or was it revealed?
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Government House
Leader.
MR. A. PARSONS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The fact
is the information was not kept secret. The Member opposite likes to make very
scurrilous allegations here, but the fact is she's simply not on the right track
here.
Thank
you.
MR. SPEAKER:
Presenting Reports by
Standing and Select Committees.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
Tabling
of Documents.
Tabling of
Documents
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Minister of
Finance and President of Treasury Board.
MS. C. BENNETT:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Pursuant
to section 26(5)(a) of the Financial
Administration Act, I am tabling one Order in Council relating to a funding
pre-commitment for the fiscal years 2018-19 through 2022-23.
Thank
you.
MR. SPEAKER:
Further tabling of documents?
I hereby
table the 2016 Annual Report of the Commissioner for Legislative Standards.
Notices
of Motion.
Answers
to Questions for which Notice has been Given.
Petitions.
Petitions
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for St.
John's East Quidi Vidi.
MS. MICHAEL:
Thank you very much, Mr.
Speaker.
To the
hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador in
Parliament assembled, the petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland
and Labrador humbly sheweth:
WHEREAS
the US Centre for Disease Control now estimates that autism spectrum disorder
affects one in 68 children, which represents a 30 per cent increase from the
estimate two years ago; and
WHEREAS
early diagnosis of ASD is essential because there is a critical developmental
period when early intervention is vital for future success of children with ASD;
and
WHEREAS
in other provinces an ASD diagnosis can be made by specialists certified and
trained in ADOS;
WHEREUPON the undersigned, your petitioners, humbly pray and call upon the House
of Assembly to urge government to allow other specialists trained and certified
with ADOS to make the autism spectrum disorder diagnosis.
And as
in duty bound, your petitioners will ever pray.
Mr.
Speaker, once again I am happy to stand and speak to this petition which has
continued to come to my desk. It was only this morning that the president of the
Autism Society was once again in the media talking about their grave concerns,
talking about the fact that the numbers of people coming to them for services
and for programs is multiplying. How they do not have adequate resources to meet
all the needs and once again trying to get the support they need from government
to help them meet the needs of the children and adults in this province who are
on the autism spectrum.
Mr.
Speaker, this morning in Estimates I did ask the Minister of Health and
Community Services about the fact that the IQ 70, or the evaluation of children
with an IQ of 70 who are on the autism spectrum, 70 or above means they cannot
avail of services. The problem with this is that the IQ 70 marker is looking at
autism from the perspective of intelligence, and we all know that many people on
the autism spectrum are highly intelligent. Some of the basic issues with regard
to being on the autism spectrum has more to do with behaviour, with social
interaction and with ability to function in our society.
The
minister knows that, and I was glad when the minister said they are working
towards putting in place what would be needed to use the testing of
functionality as the test that would determine whether or not a child on the
spectrum would get services. But this is an urgent situation, and I really
believe government has been dragging its heels.
I've
been standing for years in this House talking about this, and certainly the
Autism Society has been talking about it for years. So we have to speed up. We
have to make things better. We have to make sure that the children in our
society are able to be in school and have their needs met. That the children in
our society get the services they need. That we
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MS. MICHAEL:
I can't even hear myself.
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MS. MICHAEL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
It was
getting really difficult. I literally could not continue speaking. So I can
imagine what it must be like for somebody who is on the autism spectrum,
somebody who has a hard time with focusing, somebody who has a hard time with
dealing with society.
Just
imagine somebody in this room who just had to go through what happened here in
this room. It's a very difficult situation to be in, and our children need
everything that can be given them so that they can survive in our society. We
have to speed up the issues around helping them, making sure that all children
with needs have those needs met.
I do
implore the Minister of Health to take as quick action as possible to remove the
IQ 70 marker in the evaluation of the children on the autism spectrum.
Thank
you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for
Fortune Bay Cape La Hune.
MS. PERRY:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
A
petition to the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador in Parliament assembled, the petition of the undersigned residents of
Newfoundland and Labrador humbly sheweth:
WHEREAS
Budget 2016 implemented a regressive
tax on books in this province; and
WHEREAS
Newfoundland and Labrador is the only province in the country to have such a
tax; and
WHEREAS
the tax will undoubtedly affect literacy rates in this province as well as
negatively impact local authors and publishers;
WHEREUPON the undersigned, your petitioners, humbly pray and call upon the House
of Assembly to urge government to immediately cancel this ill-conceived book
tax.
Mr.
Speaker, I've risen time and time again, as have my colleagues on this side of
the House sitting over here in Opposition, to oppose this tax which is really
hurting the people of our province, in particular, our students, our children
and our aspiring authors and musicians.
It's
very unfortunate to see the regression that has occurred in Newfoundland and
Labrador since Budget 2016 and it
continues to happen today. I think many of us in this province were very hopeful
that government would take measures to rectify some of the damage they caused
with Budget 2016, but we didn't see it
happen.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MS. PERRY:
And so I call upon government
to consider it.
Thank
you.
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The
Member's time wasn't up.
MS. PERRY:
Oh.
MR. SPEAKER:
I'm asking Members to lower
the volume of your conversations. I'm finding it difficult to hear the Member
recognized to speak.
The hon.
Member for Fortune Bay Cape La Hune.
MS. PERRY:
Thank you.
Thank
you for your protection, Mr. Speaker. Sometimes the House can get quite loud
here.
Certainly we do call upon government to look at reversing this tax in particular
and a lot of the taxes that you've brought in. You're hurting the economy,
you're hurting our students, you're hurting our authors and you're hurting our
book industry.
It's
time to start turning things around and turn this into the province that we all
know it can be. We all know that by lowering taxes you stimulate growth and you
encourage growth. It's time for government to revisit its budget and start
eliminating some of these taxes which are hurting us.
Thank
you so much.
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. Member for Cape St.
Francis.
MR. K. PARSONS:
Thank you very much, Mr.
Speaker.
To the
hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador in
Parliament assembled, the petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland
and Labrador humbly sheweth:
WHEREAS
fisheries policy regulations link harvesting quotas to vessel length for several
species; and
WHEREAS
many harvesters own fishing vessels of various sizes, but because of policy
regulations are restricted to using smaller vessels, often putting their crews
into danger;
WHEREUPON the undersigned, your petitioners, humbly pray and call upon the House
of Assembly to urge government to make representation to the federal government
to encourage them to change policy, thus ensuring the safety of fish harvesters
in our province.
And as
in duty bound, your petitioners will ever pray.
Mr.
Speaker, as we speak this time of year, it's very important that a lot of
harvesters are out on the water and there are many issues. I spoke to harvesters
this weekend that were out. There's a lot of ice offshore and there's a lot of
and we all know what our weather is like.
With
reduction in a lot of quotas I know it has nothing to do with the size of the
vessels, but we should be encouraging the Minister of Fisheries also to talk to
the federal government about a buddy-up system, especially when it comes to the
shrimp this year where a lot of shrimp harvesters are looking at a reduction in
area 6. They're talking about half a load to go and get, and it's the
feasibility of that alone. If they were allowed to buddy up, their trip would be
a whole lot better for the harvesters because of less cost. So that's something
the minister should be looking at also.
We have
vessel size due to the crab that a certain size of vessel is used on the
inshore, a certain size of vessel is used in mid-shore and certain size of
vessel is used offshore. So if we have harvesters that are fishing three of
those different areas, they have to use three different vessels.
For the
safety of people on the water, this is a regulation that I understand why it
came in in the first place. It came in so the inshore fishery and the people
that had those licences could go catch, because the small inshore fishery boats
were what were designed to use in the inshore fishery. Now that this fishery is
in full swing, people buy these licences, the policy doesn't make sense. The
policy should be changed so that harvesters can use larger boats to fish these
inshore and mid-shore fisheries. It's all about safety and it's all about
ensuring that people get home to their families in the evening.
Thank
you very much, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for
Conception Bay East Bell Island.
MR. BRAZIL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
To the
hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador in
Parliament assembled, the petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland
and Labrador humbly sheweth:
WHEREAS
government recently cut vital funding to many of the province's youth
organizations; and
WHEREAS
the cuts to grants to youth organizations will have a devastating impact on the
communities, as well as its youth and families; and
WHEREAS
many of these organizations deeply rely on what was rightly considered core
funding for these day-to-day operations;
WHEREUPON the undersigned, your petitioners, humbly pray and call upon the House
of Assembly to urge government to immediately reinstate funding to the
province's youth organizations.
And as
in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.
Well,
Mr. Speaker, I've had the opportunity to present this over the last number of
months because we continue to get petitions from every sector in our province.
Particularly those who deal with youth organizations and not for profits, but
from every corner of our province, because they see the importance youth
organizations have and they see the devastating effect it's going to have with
these cuts.
People
must understand, and particularly government has to understand, it's not only
the impact of cutting the core funding here. It's the 300 other fees and taxes
they've imposed on the residents of Newfoundland and Labrador that they have had
a financial impact on the financial viability of these organizations,
particularly around their expenditures.
Obviously, when you lose your revenues you have to look at your expenditure
cuts, but when you look at your expenditure cuts things like insurance has
gone up 15 per cent. When things like your additional fuel cost to heat if you
have a furnace or something has gone up. Taxes are gone up in various sectors.
All the other things that are relevant to it have an impact. If they operate a
vehicle, then obviously that has an impact on their gas costs and these types of
things.
The
other part of it is most of these organizations rely on the private sector and
particular fundraising to be a key component of how they finance themselves and
how they fund particular projects and how they ensure security and feasibility.
In this case
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
I
understand the importance of conducting business while in the House, but if you
can't contain your volume to a level that I can hear the Member identified to
speak, I ask Members to take their conversations outside.
The hon.
the Member for Conception Bay East Bell Island.
MR. BRAZIL:
As I noted, with all the
additional costs that have been put on organizations and citizens in this
province, it's had an impact on the organizations ability to fundraise. People
don't have as much disposable income because it's now going to pay extra taxes;
if it's a levy tax, if it's a gas tax, if it's a tax on other services, if it's
indeed additional insurances, if it's all the other fees and services that we
want taken care of. If it's to deal with extra diabetic strips or the extra cost
of health medicines that would normally be covered for an ailing family member
who's in one of our health institutions.
All of
this has an impact on when people want support, youth organizations or any not
for profit in fundraising and supporting with a ticket draw, or a bid on a
product or supporting a concert of some sort, that has a major impact. That
impact has a bottom-line impact on these organizations that can't provide the
same level of service and, obviously, then that has an impact on our society.
These
organizations have leveraged sometimes 10, 20, 30 times as much money as being
invested by government. The services they provide are fiftyfold when it comes to
what it would cost the taxpayers to provide that.
Mr.
Speaker, I'll have an opportunity to present this again and talk about the
valued work and how important it is to reinstate those funding sources.
Thank
you.
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for St.
John's Centre.
MS. ROGERS:
Thank you very much, Mr.
Speaker.
To the
hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador in
Parliament assembled, the petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland
and Labrador humbly sheweth:
WHEREAS
government has removed the provincial point-of-sale tax rebate on books, which
will raise the tax on books from 5 per cent to 15 per cent; and
WHEREAS
an increase in the tax on books will deduce book sales to the detriment of local
bookstores, publishers and authors, and the amount collected by government must
be weighed against the loss in economic activity caused by higher book prices;
and
WHEREAS
Newfoundland and Labrador has one of the lowest literacy rates in Canada, and
the other provinces do not tax books because they recognize the need to
encourage reading and literacy; and
WHEREAS
this province has many nationally and internationally known storytellers, but we
will be the only people in Canada who will have to pay our provincial government
a tax to read the books of our own writers;
WHEREUPON the undersigned, your petitioners, humbly pray and call upon the House
of Assembly to urge government not to impose a provincial sales tax on books.
And as
in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.
Mr.
Speaker, I believe that most people in Newfoundland and Labrador know how
important taxes are. They know they pave our roads, they know they build our
hospitals, they know they provide schools. They know they provide teachers, that
they provide nurses and doctors. They know in fact that taxes provide the
salaries of each and every one of us here in this House of Assembly and the
pensions as well.
People
know that, and people know it's important to be able to pool our resources so
that we can have schools, so we can have police, so we can have firefighters, so
we can have teachers and nurses. People know that, and for the most part people
willingly pay when they know it's a fair taxation system. We are all aware of
the power of our collectivity, whether it's paying taxes, whether we're helping
one another to build houses, whether we're helping one another by volunteer work
in our communities. So people are not stupid.
People
know the value of fair taxation. People know the value of taxation that makes
sense. People also know when taxation doesn't make sense, and for the thousands
of people who have signed this petition and who continue to sign this petition
and send it in asking us to be their voice here in the province, they know this
taxation makes no sense whatsoever. As a matter of fact, it's a tax that flies
in the face of reason. Taxing books is a bad idea. Taxing books has absolutely
no benefit to anyone in the province.
Thank
you very much, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Government House
Leader.
MR. A. PARSONS:
Orders of the Day, Mr.
Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER:
Orders of the Day.
Orders of the Day
MR. A. PARSONS:
I call from the Order Paper,
Motion 1, Budget.
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Minister of
Municipal Affairs and Environment.
MR. JOYCE:
Thank you
MR. HUTCHINGS:
Point of order, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The hon.
the Opposition House Leader, on a point of order.
MR. HUTCHINGS:
Mr. Speaker, I think it's
Standing Order 47 that the last business day the Member speaking I don't think
if I remember correctly adjourned debate. I think the clock at that point in
time stops and you, basically, in accordance with the Standing Order, adjourned
the House at 5:30.
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
That is
generally the case. In this particular case, as we all recall yesterday, there
was quite a bit of confusion. This is a new rule that we're going by. There was
quite a bit of confusion. I'd asked whether or not we had leave to deal with a
point of order that had been raised and a counter to that point of order. In
this particular case, I'm going to allow the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs
and Environment to conclude his speaking time.
MR. JOYCE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Once
again, Mr. Speaker, I see why they're trying to stop me from making statements
about the hospital in Corner Brook.
Mr.
Speaker, while I was defending yesterday the hospital and the lack of work done
by the previous government, there was a tweet sent out by Sandy Collins and I
just want to read the tweet. The Eddie Joyce Side Show is on! High pitch rants
of gibberish and insults with arms swinging. He's a clown
.
I just
want people to know that this Member, the former Member for Terra Nova, is a
staff member of the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Point of order, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The hon.
the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Just
today, you cautioned Members of the House of using names of previous Members of
the House of Assembly, and the minister is now standing, in his first minute of
speaking, and he's using names of previous Members of the House of Assembly.
You've already indicated that it's inappropriate, it's not acceptable, and I
would ask you to have the Member rise and apologize for doing so.
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
Before I
recognize the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Environment, earlier
today I did discourage Members from referring to former Members by name.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
I did
encourage Members to use caution
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
Earlier
today, I did caution Members to use caution when referring to former Members of
the Legislature, as they are not in a position to defend themselves against
remarks that are made by current Members of the Legislature. I ask the hon. the
Minister of Municipal Affairs and Environment to caution himself in his remarks.
MR. JOYCE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I won't
use the name, but the former Member for Terra Nova, who's a staff member of the
Leader of the Opposition, got on Twitter yesterday calling a Member of the
Legislature a clown for standing up for the hospital in Corner Brook. I might
add, to let the people know, during time paid by the Government of Newfoundland
and Labrador, under direction by the Leader of the Opposition who allows this
from his own staff.
The
former Member for Terra Nova I don't like getting into this but, Mr. Speaker,
I'm a firm believer you have to defend yourself. I remember when the coalition
of disabilities got cut $28,000, there was a poll and we had the emails. The
poll was stacked by the Members opposite.
Do you
know one of the Members that got involved with stacking the poll with the
coalition of disabilities? It was the Member for Terra Nova the Member for
Terra Nova. And he stands up behind some Twitter account, the Member for Terra
Nova now calling a Member of the House for standing up, Mr. Speaker.
The
Member for Terra Nova, I know you stand behind your Twitter and I know you're
out there now probably tweeting. The next time you see a person with
disabilities, go up and say: I stacked the poll against you because we did
enough for you, so I can keep my $25,000-a-year job as parliamentary assistant
to the minister of Health. Let's see how much courage you've got.
So if
you want to go out on your little Twitter box and criticize me, let's talk about
how you stacked the poll of the coalition of disabilities. Let's do it. Do you
know what he'll do, Mr. Speaker? He will hide again. He will hide.
For the
Leader of the Opposition to continuously disrupt me when one of his staff and
I can only assume it's under his direction. I'll tell you why I only assume it's
under his direction, Mr. Speaker. It is because he's doing it on his time while
he's in his office and he's the boss. Then the Leader of the Opposition stands
up so proper and prim, oh, we can't do that. Yet he got his staff out making
statements like that, Mr. Speaker, after me standing up on many occasions.
Mr.
Speaker, I didn't want to attack the former Member for Terra Nova. I don't. But
I can tell you one thing; I was at a meeting, myself and the Member for
Bonavista. We were at a meeting, and guess what? It was in Bunyan's Cove. Who
was there? It was the fire chief and the mayor.
They sat
down there, the chairperson of the LSD. They sat down and were talking about a
fire truck. Mr. Speaker, we were there. He said: We were committed a fire truck.
I said: What happened? Do you know what happened? The Member for Terra Nova, the
great soul who hides behind Twitter box, who stacks the polls against people
with disabilities, do you know what he did? The chair and the fire chief, they
said: We were on the priority list, top priority list. I said: What happened?
Do you
know what the former Member for Terra Nova did, Mr. Speaker? He said; When the
boundary changed, our priority dropped; we could not get a hold of him to speak
to him. Guess what, Mr. Speaker? I said: That couldn't happen. A former Member
for Terra Nova, he would never do something like that. I came back to the
department, Mr. Speaker, I said: Guys, look, here's an accusation that was made
against the Member for Terra Nova, a good church-going man, a good man who's
always around the community and everything else.
Do you
know what I was told? I know you won't believe it either. Do you know what I was
told, Mr. Speaker? You're right; it was a priority to be approved. The minute
the boundary changed, the vote in the House of Assembly came back and said drop
it off the list.
I ask
the Member for Ferryland who was the minister at the time, how far off am I? How
far off am I? When the former Member for Terra Nova wants to go criticize me for
standing up for the people in Corner Brook about the hospital, Mr. Speaker, be
careful who you throw stones at because people may throw them back.
I never
ever wanted to bring up this kind of stuff, but I'm not letting no one in this
province to call me a clown for standing up for the long-term care facility and
for the hospital in Corner Brook and radiation in Corner Brook, and I mean
absolutely no one.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. JOYCE:
The Leader of the Opposition
has to take responsibility for this because it's your staff. It's your staff,
Mr. Speaker.
Now, I'm
just going to get back now that we know what it is truly like with the former
Member for Terra Nova and if you don't believe me, go ask the chair and ask the
fire chief and ask other people about their fire truck and ask about the
coalition of disabilities, the poll that was stacked. We all know about that.
The former Member for Terra Nova, stand up and see someone with a disability and
apologize, which you should.
Mr.
Speaker, I have two minutes left; I'm going to talk about the hospital. They
were talking about yesterday the great work the former minister of Health and
the Leader of the Opposition taking on about the hospital in Corner Brook. I am
just going to read a few stats here, Mr. Speaker. I have a minute and 50 seconds
left.
Contract
awarded for the construction of the long-term care, 2007; 2008, progress made on
the new Corner Brook hospital; 2009, Mr. Speaker, two years later, site
announced two years to announce the site. In 2010, the residents of the
Western Region will benefit from health care funding not a cent. In 2011,
funding announced on the health care facilities in Corner Brook, Mr. Speaker,
four years later.
Mr.
Speaker, in 2013, the Premier announces $227 million is for the new hospital in
Corner Brook none spent. In 2014, advancing health care is key for the
long-term care residents nothing done. Western Health received $3.7 million
for the enhancement of health care services no long-term care, no facility.
In 2015
before the election, approximately $2.5 million invested to enhance care
services in Western Region nothing done with the long-term care site or the
hospital. In 2015, the provincial government plans for the extension of
long-term care beds in Corner Brook, Mr. Speaker, eight years later. Here's the
AN HON. MEMBER:
Are we doing it?
MR. JOYCE:
No, we're doing it. We're
getting it done. Of course we're getting it done. Of course we're going to.
Mr.
Speaker, here's a request under access to information from that government when
they made seven, eight years of announcements, the Department of Health. Listen
to this, we asked the anticipated size and scope including the cost, detailed
cost of proposed facility to the Department of Health and Community Services. Do
you know what we were told in 2013, six years later? Here's the comment back:
The Department of Health and Community Services does not have any documents
responsive to your request. There was nothing done on the hospital or the
long-term care facility in Corner Brook.
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR. JOYCE:
That is why I was such a
fighter for the hospital and long-term care.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for St.
John's East Quidi Vidi.
MS. MICHAEL:
Thank you very much, Mr.
Speaker.
I am
pleased to be able to stand again and speak to the budget. Right now, we are in
the section, the sub-amendment to the main motion, and I'm very happy to stand
and have more to say.
Once
again, I want to focus on what the government is trying to do with this budget.
The Minister of Finance said in her Budget Speech that government is taking an
evidence-based approach to managing the province's finance. This evidence-based
approach has become another mantra of the government, as it has been a mantra of
the Liberal government in Ottawa too, Mr. Speaker.
So it's
very interesting when we use this phrase because, number one, one has to ask,
well, what is the evidence we're looking at, and what is the evidence really
telling us. I suppose we all can choose different pieces of evidence to make our
case, but I want to talk to some of the evidence that I believe should have been
considered by this government in putting this budget together, and I also want
to look at some of the evidence that I think this government needs to consider
as it continues to move forward. The evidence that I want to present is evidence
that's based in the reality of our society.
Mr.
Speaker, this government has moved itself in a direction that shows that it does
not understand and fully support the public nature of government. They do not
understand the role of the public sector, that we cannot have a strong economy
without also having a strong public sector.
This
government in the past, in its last budget, certainly attacked the public
service sector and now everybody is waiting on tenterhooks to see what's going
to happen with all the negotiations that I don't even know if they are really
going on yet. I don't know if government has gone back to the table with some of
the unions; maybe they have. I'm not up on that, but I know they certainly have
not been at the table. They say they have been, but they haven't been.
The
concern is their lack of belief that a strong public sector means a strong
economy. Economists will tell us that a strong public sector is an important
economic stabilizer, especially when the private sector's going through a rough
patch. Right now, in this province, we are going through a rough patch.
When I
spoke first to the budget, Mr. Speaker, I pointed out how we are in an economic
recession in this province and that we are going to be for the foreseeable
future. So keeping a strong public sector, keeping people working, keeping
services in place so that we have a healthy population, this is all part of
stabilizing our economy and keeping it strong.
That's
evidence, and that's what I call looking at evidence and talking about changes
that one is making or directions that one wants to go in, based in evidence that
is solid. This government doesn't recognize this evidence, apparently, because
everything that they've been doing is weakening our economy. Everything they are
doing is destabilizing our economy because they have been themselves attacking
the public sector.
So
that's one thing, Mr. Speaker. There's other evidence that we need to look at.
When I look at the budget, especially the budget that started because it
started last year in 2016 when I look at where this government is going, I
have to ask: What are they thinking when they take away dental care from adults?
What are they thinking when they take away the ability of people to be able to
afford to even see their doctor, to go to medical appointments?
How can
they be looking at evidence when we now have taxation on middle- and low-income
people that are really affecting them negatively, that's causing greater burden
on them we have more people who are having to go to food banks. How can they
be serious about evidence-based decision making when they have nothing in this
budget substantially to deal with the homelessness in this province?
Why do I
talk about all this, Mr. Speaker? Because all of these issues that I'm talking
about are called social determinants of health. Being healthy is not just what
you eat, although what you eat is determined by your income and determined by
the society in which you are. Being healthy is not just going out for a good
walk. Being healthy is also determined by things that we are part of in our
society.
We do
know that poverty drives up health care costs and poverty is one of the key
determinants of health. Poor housing is a determinant of poor health. We have to
look at the social determinants and we have to look at them from the perspective
of that's the evidence. That's the evidence that we have to be looking at in
determining what we're delivering in our health care system, in determining what
we're delivering in our community services, in determining how we are taking
care of people.
You see,
Mr. Speaker, this is what this government has lost sight of, which I find
surprising; I find very disturbing. They've lost sight of the fact that it's the
people of the province; it's the people who have to be at the centre of decision
making. It's the people and the good of the people in our province that have to
be there, that has to be the evidence that they're looking at.
If we
find that the income of people is going down, if we find that more people are
going to food banks and if we find that we can't afford to put enough resources
or are choosing not to put not enough resources into our educational system to
make sure that it works as an inclusion system, if we're not doing that, then we
are going to be hurting our people. Our people are going to become sicker. We're
going to have greater costs and that's the evidence I can't understand that this
government is not looking at. We will have greater health costs because of the
kind of budgets they are maintaining in this province. That's the evidence that
we need to look at.
Choosing
Wisely NL is a health care advocacy group. It's led by Dr. Patrick Parfrey who
is well known in our province, well known in the academic circles, well known
nationally, and I would say he's known internationally as well. He says that
fully 20 per cent of our health care budget is being used inappropriately,
mainly through inappropriate and unnecessary testing. Now this is very
interesting and I think it's something we want evidence to look at. This is some
evidence we need to look at.
We don't
have a health care system that is completely formed around prevention, helping
people to not get sick. It's a model that isn't working. The model we are using
is not preventing. The model we are using is dealing with illness as it happens.
Now I
know there are lots of things that are going on that are good. I'm not going to
say we don't have good things in our province and in our health care system, in
our education system. That's not what I'm saying, but if we continue with a
health care system that is not founded on primary health care delivery, that
that's the basis of the model, that it's not founded on prevention and
preventive measures, but we continually are pouring so much money into dealing
with acute health care issues, putting money into more and more tests, putting
money into more and more medication that may be not necessary either, then we
are going to continue to not have the money that we need to help people not get
sick. That has to be seen as part of our health care system, and that's evidence
we need to pay attention to.
So I was
disappointed this morning in Estimates when the Minister of Health and Community
Services didn't take seriously I thought, he may disagree the report of the
Newfoundland and Labrador Medical Association. They proposed a systemic
independent review of our health care system to try to make the best use of
available dollars, and we support that idea.
This
morning the minister more or less said well, there's nothing new in their
report. Well, I saw a lot of new things in their report. I saw things that we
need to sit down and pay attention to. We're not going to help our health care
system by doing patch quilt things, by taking care of an issue here or an issue
there or an issue somewhere else. What we need is a health care system, the very
foundation of which shapes the health care.
If we
have a health care system that is founded on a model of primary health care,
community-based care, then we will have a health care system that will be
preventative when it comes to keeping people healthy. We will have a health care
system that will ensure that people are healthy and will actually save money in
the long run, but it takes long-term planning. It takes looking down the road
and saying it could be 10 years before everything is where we need it to be but
if we don't start now we'll never get there. This government don't know how to
do that long-term planning.
The
long-term planning they're doing is going to be digging a hole deeper and deeper
and deeper. We will have a recession that's longer than we would ever think
could happen because they haven't got a plan to do otherwise. They think they
have it, they talk about it that way but the evidence is not there. They
themselves, last year when they brought in their budget, said that unemployment
was going to go up. That it was going to go up anyway but it was going to go up
more because of that budget.
We know
the budget is also causing a rise in our cost of living; the only two things
that are moving upward in our province right now on the economic spectrum. They
talk about evidence based. Well, Mr. Speaker, the other thing that came out this
morning in Estimates was the whole issue of P3, the private, public partnerships
that this government is starting to use and to promote and to push.
We all
know the government has made P3 the route to take with the Corner Brook hospital
and the long-term care home. We also know that we can't get all the information
about what's going to be entailed, what that's going to mean for the province.
They say they have the evidence that P3 is the way to go, but, Mr. Speaker, the
evidence, both in our country and internationally, the evidence is there showing
that P3 arrangements cost the public purse more in the long run again, in the
long run than conventional government procurement.
Again,
government is showing their inability to do the long-term planning. They're
seeing the P3 arrangements and the minister said this morning they're going to
continue pursuing P3 as they look at other infrastructure that has to be
created, that they are using the P3 as an easy fix. They see it as a way of
dealing with their problems in the present but they're not looking at the long
term. It's in the long term you find that the P3 is costing more money for the
government.
The
government again, the minister said it this morning is using the phrase
value for money. We want value for our money and P3 is the way to go because
we'll get value for our money. There's no proof of that. There is absolutely no
proof that P3s are value for money.
One
example, the private sector cannot get loans at the same interest rate as
government. They can't, so more interest will have to be paid for the loans.
It's not going to be the private sector that pays that, it's going to be us. It
will be part of the money that this government will be paying to the private
sector in the building of the infrastructure they're planning.
The
bottom line for the private sector is making a profit. That's what the private
sector is all about. They will determine in putting contracts together, any
potential for loss is not going to be carried by them. We will be years paying
out the money to the private sector and never knowing what's going to happen
down the road. All because this government is looking for a quick fit, and it's
not going to work.
The
struggle against the P3s will continue in this province. I have no doubt about
it, but this government seems unable to hear what's being said and refusing to
look at the real evidence about P3s. It's really interesting the way in which
they determine the evidence that helps them with their decision making.
If
you're going to look at evidence then you have to look at all the evidence, not
just cherry-pick the evidence you're looking at. They want an easy way out and
if they want to balance a budget early down the road or earlier than they think
they were going to even a year ago, then you go for the easy fix. But going for
the easy fix is not the economic, smart way to go. It really isn't. And the
proof is there for that. The evidence is there for that.
It's the
same thing with the government's decision to charge ahead with the Muskrat Falls
Project no matter what the environmental risk and no matter what the eventual
cost to ratepayers. The part of meaningful evidence-based decision making
involves making that evidence available to the public.
Unfortunately, I'm not saying I mean government has said and the current head
of Nalcor has said that the evidence was there that we couldn't stop, we
couldn't slow down and we had to keep going with Muskrat Falls. But we don't
know the full details of the documentation. We don't know the full details that
they say is the evidence that was there for them to make this decision, just
like we don't know the full details of the P3 decision-making process that's
going on.
This
government continues to make decisions which they say are for the good of the
people of the province. They continue to make decisions based on evidence that
only they are holding in their hands and they continue to make these decisions
while the evidence is there that people in this province are suffering from
their decision making. Yet the people in the province are supposed to be taken
care of.
Our
educational system in terms of what's being offered in terms of meeting the
needs of children is going backwards instead of forwards. My colleague likes to
use the phrase that it's not the way forward, it's the way backwards. And that's
what this government there's evidence there for that. If they want evidence,
look at their economic indicators that were in their book called
The Economy. Look at the indicators
and the evidence is there that we're not moving forward, we're moving backwards.
Let's
look for the real evidence. If government really had the evidence that showed
that Muskrat Falls couldn't be stopped, if they really had the evidence to show
that the P3 agreement is the best agreement, then show us the evidence so that
we can also see the evidence that they're using. Show us the evidence.
One of
the things that are for sure and economists around the world will say this
that there's plenty of evidence that austerity simply doesn't work in times of
recession, yet this is what they've chosen, Mr. Speaker. Austerity is the
direction which they've gone.
I only
have a few seconds, so I want to quote the Nobel Prize winning economist, Paul
Krugman, who put it pretty succinctly, and this is a famous quote from him:
Every country that introduced significant austerity has seen its economy suffer.
All of the economic research that allegedly supported the austerity push has
been discredited. It is rare, in the history of economic thought, for debates to
get resolved this decisively. That's evidence, Mr. Speaker, and I ask the
government to look at that evidence.
Thank
you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Member for Mount
Pearl Southlands.
MR. LANE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
It's a
pleasure to speak again now for the second time on the budget. I just want to
recap a couple of things, first of all, that I did say yesterday, just for the
record and anybody new who might be listening, at least my position on it.
First of
all, I'm going to say that I can't support the budget. I know there will be
Members that would say of course you're not. You're on the Opposition so
automatically that means you're not going to support the budget. I would say
that I don't feel that way at all. Quite frankly, I wanted to support the
budget. I was hoping I could support the budget. But given the fact that this
budget is really a continuation of the budget I couldn't support last year, how
could I possibly support it? Really nothing has changed, other than the fact
that we are going to see some reduction in the gas tax in June, but the levy,
all the issues around the levy and so on are still there.
A senior
who is struggling with increased home care, a senior who is struggling with not
having certain over-the-counter drugs covered, home care supplies covered, all
those things, a senior who is suffering like everyone else from the increased
taxes, nothing has changed for that individual as a result of this budget
compared to last year.
So, for
that reason, I can't support it. Had there had been some more significant
changes in terms of the degree of taxation and so on put upon the people, then
perhaps I could have supported it, but we haven't seen it. That's unfortunate
and, therefore, that's why I can't.
As I
said yesterday, everything in the budget is not bad. There are some good items
in the budget. There are some initiatives there that I support. I outlined them
yesterday. I think they were good and nothing has changed in that regard, so
there are some good things there. I'm not denying that and I'm glad to see some
of the initiatives that have been taken.
As I
said yesterday, I think the approach of zero-based budgeting is a good approach
to take. It makes total sense to me that, year over year, you should have to
justify the expenditures as opposed to simply saying because we did it last year
or the year before, we're going to spend the same this year. Making it so that
department heads and so on have to justify their spending year over year, to me,
is a positive thing and, as I said yesterday, I do support that.
Now,
there are a couple of things. First of all, my colleague just spoke to the issue
of P3s. While my colleague has said a number of things I have agreed with, in
terms of the P3s I'm really not sure what the issue is, to be honest with you. I
do understand concerns around P3s if we were going to be privatizing the
services themselves. In other words, taking health care, as an example, removing
public employees and privatizing it, I understand why some of my colleagues
would have a concern with that. I would have a concern with that; I would not
support that.
But in
terms of constructing the infrastructure, which is what's being proposed here
simply constructing that infrastructure, if there is a value-for-money
assessment done and it makes sense and it allows us to move forward because we
don't have the cash, it still allows us to own the facility and to pay it out
over time granted, we may have to pay more. It's no different than not being
able to pay for a house, cash down; you get a mortgage, you end up paying more.
We all know that. But if it allows us to get what we need and what the people
desperately need, and it makes sense and the cost is not outrageous, then as far
as brick and mortar goes, personally I don't have a problem with it. I don't see
anything wrong with that. That's how I see it.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. LANE:
But if we were talking about
privatizing the services, that's another discussion altogether, and I would
definitely agree as it relates to what my colleagues here have said, that I
would not support that.
I want
to put it on the record as I said yesterday, Madam Speaker, I'll put out the
good, the bad, how I feel about things, and I'm not taking one side or the
other; I'm just looking at these issues from how I see them and how I believe my
constituents see them. Knowing that no matter what you say or what position you
take, it's inevitable that everyone's not going to agree with you, whatever
position that is.
I think
one of the things that I would have liked to have seen more of in the budget is
some more initiatives in terms of economic development and how we're going to
grow the economy. We realize that for a long time we've been dependent on oil
and gas, and we still are. Quite frankly, the only reason why we're in a better
position financially this year versus last year is because the price of oil went
up beyond what it was forecasted and the production numbers went up. That was
really it.
Yes,
there was some I'm not saying there wasn't a few savings here and there with
zero-based budgeting. Obviously, we know there were services, as I outlined
earlier, that were cut and tax increases that I think we went too far with. For
me, it's not about people paying a greater share. It's the degree to which they
did it. Beyond that, it was really our fortunes in terms of oil and gas that
really improved our situation.
We are
still very dependent on oil and gas. That's a reality. Do we need to diversify
the economy? Absolutely! We need to lower our dependency on oil and gas
revenues. I think everybody realizes that. Now, is there a magic bullet that
will just automatically do that? No, there's not. It is something that's going
to take time. It's government's job to create an atmosphere, if you will, to
foster economic growth and development. That's government's role. I'm glad to
see we have seen some moves here; I don't think we've seen enough moves.
Quite
frankly, a year or two ago you will recall the LEAP program, the Liberal
Economic Action Plan. At that point in time there was a group that went out all
over the province and met with all these business leaders and captains of
industry as they were called and so on. They had all of these great ideas,
supposed to garner all these great ideas to diversify the economy. I haven't
seen a whole lot.
I would
love for the government to bring forward a document that says this is exactly
here is a document. Here's our LEAP document if you will. I've never seen a LEAP
document and say here's what we heard, here's what we're doing, here's the
results. I haven't seen it. I'd like to see that. We haven't yet, but we'll wait
and see.
There
are some things that have been done, some initiatives that I would agree with. I
think the fact that we're going to take more agricultural land and we're going
to develop that for farming, I think that was a good move. I would support that
for sure. I'm sure the people that are involved in farming; they feel it's a
good idea. I think there's a lot of opportunity there for sure and that's
certainly something I support.
I think
freeing open more Crown land for municipalities so they can grow their towns and
their communities; I think that was also a good initiative. Hopefully we will
see something come from that.
I think
we have opportunity, as we all realize, I think, in the aquaculture industry.
There's no doubt, that's an opportunity to grow the economy in a lot of areas, a
lot of rural areas, create jobs and so on. Although I would just caution that as
it relates to aquaculture, Madam Speaker, that it's important that as we're
doing it, as we're allowing these projects to go forward, that we do them
properly. That we make sure all of the proper due diligence is done in terms of
the environmental legislation and so on.
That's
why I was really surprised, and a little disappointed quite frankly, that we
moved forward with the Grieg proposal without going through the full
environmental assessment. I want to see these things happening if it makes sense
and it's not going to harm our environment. Like I said, it's going to create a
lot of jobs, a lot of wealth and we would all support that, but we do need to
make sure, like I said, that we're doing the due diligence.
Depending on who you listen to, you will get different perspectives in terms of
whether this is okay for the environment or whether it's not. There are two
opposing sides, obviously. While we want the jobs, without a doubt, we can't
just say because there are jobs, the heck with the environment. We cannot do
that. We need to make sure we do our due diligence. So if there's an
environmental process, we should take that process to the nth degree to ensure
it's done properly.
I
actually met
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MADAM SPEAKER (Dempster):
Order, please!
MR. LANE:
I actually met with people
from the aquaculture industry to try to get a feel for that and, quite frankly,
I was surprised to learn I was told by those people that they were surprised.
On the Grieg project they were surprised that they didn't go all the way with
the full environmental assessment. They were confident that had that been done
it still would have shown that the project is a good project and no concerns. So
they could not understand why you just simply wouldn't do it for the record, do
all the due diligence, get it out there on the books that everything has been
done and it's safe for the environment and so on. They were surprised that
wasn't done.
As I
said, I'm glad to see that
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MADAM SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR. LANE:
I'm glad to see these types
of initiatives, but, as I said, let's do the due diligence. That's all I'm
saying.
It's
amazing to me, Madam Speaker, that here I am actually supporting initiatives
that are going forward and I'm still getting heckled for supporting it. It's
mind blowing to me. I'm supporting it. I'm supporting the aquaculture project. I
am supporting it.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MADAM SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR. LANE:
The Member for Placentia
West, he will have his chance
MADAM SPEAKER:
Order, please!
This is
the third time the Speaker has asked for co-operation of Members of the House.
If I speak any more I will names specific Members.
The hon.
the Member for Mount Pearl Southlands.
MR. LANE:
Thank you for the protection
from the Member for Placentia West. I'll name him.
Aquaculture, there's an opportunity. Certainly, the fishery I think the
fishery is something that over the years I don't think we've paid enough
attention to it. We should have paid attention to it. I really think we need to
put more focus on the fishery. It's important that we all work together to try
to resolve some of the issues.
I did
write the Premier and suggested perhaps an all-party committee to look at some
of the issues. I would still maintain that that's something that should be done
so that we could talk to stakeholders and come up with a united front on some of
the important issues facing the fishery to advocate together, jointly to Ottawa
on. I still maintain that as well.
Madam
Speaker, as far as the Crown lands and the agricultural projects and so on go,
as I said, I think that was a good move. I think one of the issues that I've
heard in the past when it comes to raising our own beef and things like that,
that the issue we've had, while that's not growing is because of inspection
processes and the availability of federal inspection for meat and beef and so
on. That's something I think that should be looked into for sure.
Of
course, one of the biggest opportunities we have in the province for growth is
tourism. I'm glad to see that we're continuing to go down that road to try to
promote tourism. When I was out and about last summer, up around the Northern
Peninsula area and Central Newfoundland and so on, there's no doubt, there's an
awful lot there to offer, but there were three things that I noted, at least,
from a tourist point of view, that we really need to be working on.
One was
the roads. Now, we all know there are issues all throughout the province with
roads. We know that apparently we have a new system in place now that's supposed
to take the politics out of pavement or so on, whatever the terminology is. It's
a matrix and so on. Madam Speaker, part of that matrix, if it's not there, needs
to be tourism.
I will
just use an example. We have Elliston the Root Cellar Capital of the World is
it, or is it just North America or whatever it is. Anyway, it's on the Bonavista
Peninsula; a beautiful spot. The Sealers Memorial is down there and so on, but
the road to go down there is absolutely brutal, to say the least. The road is
brutal.
If we're
going to have an area like that, that's going to offer that experience for
tourists and so on, then it is important that the road getting down to that
particular site is in good condition and that has to be part of
MR. JOYCE:
That's on the list this year.
MR. LANE:
The minister is saying it's
on the list. Good, glad to hear it. The Minister of Municipal Affairs said that
road is on the list excellent.
MR. JOYCE:
This year.
MR. LANE:
This year good, perfect.
I guess
my point is part of this matrix for roads and stuff like that has to take into
consideration tourist opportunities and so on, because people have to be able to
get there and get there safely.
The
second thing I noticed when I was around was signage. Signage to get to the
various tourist sites is not always great. Sometimes there might be a sign when
you actually get right down next to it, but there might be a bunch of roads
for example, you could see a sign on the highway or off the highway saying
certain tourist attraction, turn right. But you go down right and there could be
two or three turns, lefts and rights and everything else, to get to the actual
site and when you get down there, you can't find it because of very poor
direction. So another thing I think we really need to look is the signage.
Not from
our perspective. It's fine for us to say, well, we're from Newfoundland, we know
where these places are, but you have to put yourself in the mind of a tourist
who has never been here, has no clue where these places, these sites, are and to
look at it from their perspective.
AN HON. MEMBER:
(Inaudible.)
MR. LANE:
A lot of them, I am told by
the Member, that were there are blown down, so they need to be maintained.
That's obviously an important piece as well.
Someone
really needs to look at the signage to our main tourist sites from a tourist's
eyes, who doesn't know where they're going to, and ask themselves if I didn't
know how to get here and I come to a fork in the road and there's no sign in
that fork that says go left or go right, or whatever, well then if I'm a
tourist, how am I going to know. I think we need to do that.
The
other thing I noted was the maintenance of the actual tourist sites themselves.
There are some really high-quality tourist destinations here in Newfoundland and
Labrador and there are a lot of them that are kept up very well. But there are
also a number of tourist sites, if you will, off the beaten path, that are in
terrible condition. I found a number of those when I was going down different
areas where you might see a sign or something and it said there was a sign or
whatever to a certain location. When you get down there, when you get down to
that site, you would note that perhaps the area not just the road but the area
itself, that the storyboards or whatever that were there were all marked up or
torn down; or there was a walking trail or a little bridge there that was all
beaten down; if there was a pull-in area with playground equipment, it was all
rusty, falling down and so on.
Now, I'm
not saying that we can maintain every single site in the province. Perhaps what
we need to do is take an inventory and say what sites are the major sites that
we can afford to maintain and make sure that those sites are in the best
possible condition. If we have other small areas here and there that are not
being used and are falling apart, then simply take down the sign altogether and
don't use it, but don't have a tourist drive for a half hour down through some
road to get down to something and it's all falling apart. There should be an
inventory done of that, and I think that would be another thing to improve from
a tourist point of view.
Madam
Speaker, I'm pretty much out of time. Those were just some of my thoughts. I
have 14 seconds left, so I'll say the other impediment to tourism is the ferry
system and the cost of the ferry system. I think that's something as well that
we need to all be lobbying to get those rates down so we can get people here to
our beautiful province.
Thank
you, Madam Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MADAM SPEAKER:
The Speaker recognizes the
hon. Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. PETTEN:
Thank you, Madam Speaker.
It's a
pleasure to get up and speak on the budget. This is my first time rising on any
part to speak on this year's budget, so that's always a pleasure.
I guess
there are a lot of things I could discuss on the budget. It's almost like one of
them things, where do you start. The most telling thing about this budget when
it was first brought down we haven't had a lot of time in the House to debate
it since it was brought in, but a lot of people I spoke to, people were
expecting the worst and the worst never came. Everyone was expecting a really
harsh budget and, in actual fact, they never got what they expected.
In
essence, that cushioned the blow
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MADAM SPEAKER:
Order, please!
I ask
Members for their co-operation, to keep the volume down.
Thank
you.
The hon.
the Member for Conception Bay South.
MR. PETTEN:
Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Basically expectations were high on a harsh budget. When it was delivered,
people were generally pleased that it wasn't what they anticipated.
Strategy-wise, I guess that worked for the public backlash that you saw last
year, you never got it this year.
As the
days went on and, like I said, we weren't here in the House, as you start asking
questions and people were talking to it, the thing that came to mind to most
people, a lot of people I spoke to, was this is the same budget that was
delivered last year, with the exception of the reduction in the gas tax. Really,
you had a continuation of the 2016 budget.
As time
goes on and you talk to people, the more and more you talk about it, that's
become the story. It is like fair enough, it wasn't what we anticipated; yet,
it's still the same budget. So it's still not a good thing with the reduction
we have 300 new taxes implemented last year, fees and taxes, and this year we
have a reduction one of those 300. So 299 are still there and one is reduced.
Really, 300 of them are still there, with a reduction in one.
There's
no doubt, from the public perspective, it wasn't what they anticipated but it is
still not a good thing. Madam Speaker, I suppose I'll reference my own district.
CBS is the second largest municipality in the province. I know that a lot of
people sometimes don't realize that fact when they look at the two other cities
around us well, three, counting Lab City. CBS is a town, but it is the second
largest municipality in the province.
For
years, it was the fastest growing community in Atlantic Canada. I spend a lot of
time in my district obviously, I live there, but I do spend a lot of time out
around. I know a lot of the people. I converse with a lot from all different
walks of life. Everyone is telling me what they anticipated last year, this year
is coming home to roost, is that the economy is slowing down.
I have a
lot of contractors with the housing boom that was on the go, a lot of
contractors now are starting to find the pinch. Some never made it through last
year. A lot more this year are not sure if they're going to make it through this
construction season. No doubt, a lot of it is cyclical with the boom, but a lot
of it a direct result of the budgetary measures that's affecting each and every
one of us. If you're building a home or if you're out buying a vehicle, any big
purchases, there are a lot of people rethinking what they're doing financially,
based on the added costs in the budget.
I'll
throw one extra one out there too, and I guess a lot of people it's probably a
timely thing to bring up. The deadline for taxes was April 30. I've talked to
ever so many people and they said, they heard about the levy. We talked about
the levy for hours on end and around the clock, as we all remember, but this
year when they started doing their income tax they actually seen the effect of
the levy. Whether they did their own taxes, whether they went to H&R Block,
whether they went to an accounting firm, there's that separate form and it jumps
right out at you. It's the line item for that levy.
It seems
to me that, again, you say a lot of things and it doesn't resonate with people
until it actually comes to the actual they see it firsthand and they actually
go: Oh my God, this is what they've been talking about for the last year.
I guess
in comparison to it, it was a budgetary item but it makes when I thought about
that, the only comparison I could make was snow clearing, the 24-hour snow
clearing issue. I brought that up last spring in the House. At the time there
were some questions about it, debate back and forth and it stopped, but, as we
all know, when the snow started falling in December I was the critic and I was
promoting it but the public were promoting it just as much as me. The issue was:
Oh my God, this is what he mentioned eight months ago.
Well,
the levy question is one I found interesting because in my other life I am an
accountant, my background, so I do that on the side and I saw it firsthand. When
I saw it I went I seen it and I said it hurts when you're doing it and you can
see it actually on paper, but then when I went around and I went to Tim Hortons
and I went to various other places, and you run into this person and that
person, they're meeting a deadline and they actually say that's a topic they
say: I didn't realize that. I would have got a refund only for the levy.
So this
budget, again, no doubt, the way it was delivered and the people's expectations
were where they are, but the actual fact of the matter is it was just a
continuation of last year's budget. Most of the public are aware of that now. I
guess they've complained, they've cried out to the hills in the last year. So
that's why he's not hearing a lot about it now, but most of the public are well
aware of what they're facing and what they have in store for the next year.
On that
note, Madam Speaker, there are a few issues; there are a few areas I'd like to
go, but I'd just like to, while I got this opportunity, before I go back into
direct budget stuff, about my district. I know yesterday I heard Members getting
up, several Members getting up and thanking the volunteers for last week being
volunteer appreciation week.
In my
own District of Conception Bay South, we hosted the 2016 Summer Games last year.
I wanted to give a shout out to the volunteers from my own district. We had
upwards of 600 volunteers step up to the plate and made the 2016 Summer Games
the success they were.
Without
volunteers, as anyone can attest to with those sorts of events, they would not
be possible. Those events would not happen. I just wanted to be on record as
giving them a big thank you on behalf of our district. Because what they've done
and the work they've done, each and every one of them, not only what they do in
other walks, all our community organizations, but for everyone to come together
for those games it was great to see. I commend each and every one of them.
Madam
Speaker, another budget item and we hear about it, it was a news item two
weeks ago it's the Adult Dental care program. I know my colleague, the critic
for Health, has brought it up on the floor many times and it's been talked
about, but that's a tough budget item to that's a tough issue to deal with.
Because on one end of it your policy and the budget don't allow for it, the
program is no longer there. On the other side of it you have some seniors that
are struggling just to survive. They don't have that extra money to be able to
get this work done. It's not cosmetic. Most of it is very essential.
It was
two weeks back we saw it was a lady who was brought it was in a local paper.
She actually protested out on the parking lot. I was quite familiar with that
lady personally. She lives in a neighbouring district, but me and my colleague
for Topsail Paradise, both of us had dealings back and forth with her. That's
quite a sad story. She's eating purιed food, losing weight. She's in dire need
of this surgery which costs $20,000 out of her pocket. She can't afford it.
That was
one of the casualties of the 2016 budget. Again, I understand you find savings
but some of those savings you have to a lot of it doesn't make sense
unfortunately. Then you see people like that, our seniors, some of our most
vulnerable people who are in need of this service and the money is not
available. I think that's a continuation. There's no change. That was 2016. Here
we are in 2017 and those same issues are with us. That lady was only the
poster child for that issue was the bigger issue. I have had other people in my
district come to me about that same program cut, same similar issues, and
they're being denied. I think that was an ill-advised decision.
Madam
Speaker, on the topic of budget I guess on the topic of just a general
consensus out on the street today. I sat in this House, and I'm a newly-elected
Member in my second year. I heard the current Premier get up and say that oil is
not a policy. We were drunk on oil. We depended on oil for way too many things.
We overspent and the list goes on.
We
referenced the 2016 budget as a download on the people of this province with the
300 taxes and the increase in the levies and the gas tax and you name it; yet,
based on the fact of oil prices going up and production increase this past year,
the province were the beneficiaries of an extra half a billion dollars in
income, which was used to meet their targets, among other things. We haven't
quite figured out where their targets are, but we're working on that. In one
breath your actions have to match your words. You can't speak out of both sides
of your mouth.
You're
saying it's not a policy. You're saying the former administration was drunk on
oil; they were spending like drunken sailors. You can't say that in one breath
and then all of a sudden use that as your backstop on the other side. That's
exactly what happened here in this budget with the extra half a billion dollars
in oil revenues. It saved the current government some political capital from
having to do what everyone anticipated they were going to do, but I guess the
devil is in the details, Madam Speaker, because I believe what's going to happen
down the road now is that to soften the blow and to gain some again, it keeps
your political capital intact, or some of it. You're going to see dribs and
drabs; you're going to see 10 layoffs here or 15 here. You're not going to see a
massive 400 to 500 people go. You'll see a few here and a few there, hoping
along the way people will not pick up on this shock to the system, that it's
going to happen in little increments.
I guess
the point I'm making, connecting with the oil, without this half a billion
dollars in revenue some of those decisions would have had to been made here and
now when the budget was released. Based on that, and this zero-based budgeting
that we're still working on figuring out, because a lot of it is still a bit
uncertain, that saved the government some face in being able to deliver a budget
that wasn't, again, as harsh as people had anticipated.
My point
on that, I mean the moral of my story with that is you can't have it both ways.
I sit here in this House and I listen to a lot of debate, I listen to a lot of
commentary. Some commentary, from all sides, I agree with it if it makes sense,
but a lot of it I just am left shaking my head. Sometimes I'm thinking you give
them the benefit of the doubt. Then they turn around and this totally
contradicts what they were after saying prior to.
I know
we'll all do that in time, that's part of the political life, but I do hope to
try to keep a bit of creditability. If you stand by your convictions and you
believe in something, say it and stand by it. Don't say it when it's all right,
the optics are good or it's the right timing. You need to say it and stand by
it.
In
saying this, Madam Speaker, I guess we'll go back. I want to touch on a couple
of other issues, too, in my time. The current issue going on today with the
former clerk, I guess, now. I mean I went around my district when that story
broke last week and I'll be honest, I talked to the Liberals, I talked to NDPs,
I talked to PCs, I talked to people who can't stand either one of us. Everyone
said the same thing: What were they thinking? Everybody I mean everybody and
that's the genuine effect.
If we
were in power and it was a PC premier I would have to ask the same question:
What in the name of God were you thinking? To think that something like this is
okay and get up and defend something like that, it just defies all logic. I've
heard mind boggling. There's every type of analysis. Anyone you listen to in the
media, anyone that's following this stuff, everybody says the same thing.
Most
Members opposite are pretty rational thinkers and I think that they're in their
own right. They have to see what everyone else sees. To sit there in this House
and to listen to the back and forth and to listen to the explanations being
given and for anyone and I mean anybody to think that that's good, that's
proper. You have the most senior civil servant actually suing the government so
he's on both sides of the table. I mean it just defies logic, it defies all
common sense.
I guess
I always use my filter. You go out in the general public and you ask people or
people ask you. They want to talk, they want to have that topic, they want to
have that discussion. That's what everyone is saying to me. I mean some people
are almost like can you explain to me what the clerk does because not a lot of
people or I should say not a lot, there's a group of people who don't
understand the work.
So when
you explain to them who that person actually is their jaws drop. They're like
what? How can that happen? And that sums it up: How could it have ever happened?
Why would you ever do something like that knowing first-hand what the outcome
could be?
Madam
Speaker, I know that some Members opposite don't want to get up and speak but
they'd like to heckle, so maybe they can get up when I'm done.
AN HON. MEMBER:
See if they get up.
MR. PETTEN:
Yes, really.
The
thing is if you make a decision and I learned this along the way from a lot of
people that I had a lot of respect for coming up through and some of my current
colleagues as a minister in charge, you have to look down the road and see the
worst possible thing. If something goes wrong how can I defend this.
I've
been in the boardrooms with ministers when they'd say that, okay, this is a
dicey one but how can I defend this decision? I heard that for years and I
learned from it because they'd say if I can't defend this decision, I'm not
making it. You always have an out and that makes sense in life, Madam Speaker.
No matter what we do in life we should always be able to defend our actions.
That's the moral of that story: Defend your actions.
When
this decision was made to hire on this guy and it's not about Mr. Coffey, I
don't know the man but he has a stellar record as a lawyer. It's nothing about
him and never has been, it's about the judgement of our Premier and this current
government who knew about it and today thinks it's still fine to say that this
is right.
It
defies all logic how you can say we're going to do this. We know you're suing
the government; you have a couple of potential cases. If anything comes up
publicly, if we have to deal with that, we know how to deal with that. We'll
just tell them we're just going to let him go and accept his resignation. We
don't have an answer for you but that's your answer. That to me is totally wrong
on every front, Madam Speaker.
Again,
I'll allude back to Members opposite. They can catcall on certain things but if
they really feel so strongly, I think maybe the people out there would like hear
their views on this, too, because the people I'm talking to are totally at a
loss.
I'll be
honest, I'm at a loss. I cannot, for the life of me, see how any one of the
Members opposite and the Premier, being the man in charge, to agree to that
agreement, and then get up in this House, get up in front of a news scrum in the
media centre and defend it.
Actually, as a matter of fact, he said he would do it again he'd actually do
it again. Now if that's not, I suppose, bold, brazen, brash, whatever you want
to call it, that defies more logic tonight.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MADAM SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR. PETTEN:
Madam Speaker, it's
interesting, you know. We've been on this side for the last two days getting up
and debating the budget, trying to have sensible debates and Members opposite
are sitting down, outside of one Member there. One Member got up, I believe, and
they were over there catcalling. I mean, the floor is theirs if they want to
take their turn and get up and defend what they're doing in this budget. No,
they will not defend what's going up in that budget.
As a
matter of fact, Madam Speaker, I took the time yesterday morning and so have my
colleagues to go down and listen to the Premier's answers on the current Bern
Coffey fiasco. I said I'd like to see that live. Actually, we were the only ones
there was not a Liberal Member in the media centre, outside the Premier and
the Minister of Justice.
That
tells me everything I need to know about their views, so if they want to get up
and defend what I'm saying here, please get up and defend it; give me some
rational arguments to that decision. That's all I'm asking. I'm not saying I
just can't understand, for the life of me, these Members opposite can sit there
with a clear conscience and defend and backup what's been done.
This is
outrageous. It flies in the face of anything that's common sense, Madam Speaker.
You can't put the fox in the henhouse. That's exactly what happened in this
case. You can't have it both ways; you just can't do it.
Then the
minister
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MADAM SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR. PETTEN:
Then the Minister of Natural
Resources who doesn't one of the cases that are filed against Nalcor, we found
out today she doesn't even know about it. She knew nothing about this deal. The
Minister of Finance found out about it in the media. Now the Minister of Health
knew because Western Health is getting sued. That's good to know. We're glad to
hear that.
Before I
finish up, Madam Speaker, we have a minister that wasn't allowed to get up. Two
or three times she was asked questions, she wasn't allowed to stand up. The
Premier got up instead of her. He kept her seated. He didn't want her views on
it.
We saw
it was all over the place; you almost need to keep a scorecard. But I tell you
right now in the court of public opinion on this issue this government needs to
come clean with the people because this decision was horrendous.
Thank
you very much, Madam Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MADAM SPEAKER:
The Speaker recognizes the
hon. Member for Conception Bay East Bell Island.
MR. BRAZIL:
Thank you, Madam Speaker.
I want
to acknowledge my colleague here for Conception Bay South who very eloquently
outlined exactly the challenges that we have here in voting for this budget; the
challenges that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador have in supporting this
budget; the questions that the multitudes, the thousands of people have around
the inadequacies in this budget and how it's not addressing the needs of the
people of Newfoundland and Labrador; how it is very short-sighted and falls
short of the testaments and the testimonials given by Members on that side and
by their government about the great things they were going to do and the vision
and The Way Forward plan.
Madam
Speaker, when the Throne Speech first came down and I said this before and
I'll be as honest as anybody the outline had me intrigued. It actually had me
encouraged that we were going to move things forward. I felt that maybe we had
turned a corner. Maybe the bad choices made last year by the Liberal
administration and the bad decisions were going to be reversed in some way,
shape or form, or they had a plan to get us back to where we needed to go to
ensure that we continued to make things grow in this province; continue to keep
our young educated, well-resourced individuals here; continue to support our
post-secondary institutions; continue to support our primary and secondary
institutions; continue to invest in proper infrastructure; continue to give
pride to the citizens here so that they don't leave in droves. That they feel
that they want to stay here and that they're willing to take they'll take a
few hits. They're willing to pay their dues if they know that there's some
vision at the end of the day.
Last
year, well, we know the devastation. I think it took 12 months for the shock to
wear off on a number of people here, other than those who immediately saw and
probably had some political vision, realized then at the end of the day there
was not going to be any solving the issue by the Liberal administration. There
was no down the road they'd make a better life. There would be no way forward.
Their way forward was to get out of Newfoundland and Labrador because they
didn't see a future here, and that's unfortunate because we lost some real key
citizens here.
We lost
a real opportunity to do things here, a real opportunity to grow our economy,
and we didn't do that. We didn't take advantage of it because rather than
selling or explaining or engaging the citizens to say we've got some hard times
here, there's a financial crisis and we admit that I have no qualms; no matter
what administration had been in, there was a financial crisis.
The
difference between good leadership is how you deal with that financial crisis.
The best way to do that is to find a way to ensure that people still have faith
in what you do and people still understand it and people are willing to do their
part. But that wasn't what this administration did at all. What they did was
just take a calculator and start punching in some numbers and say here's the
amount of money we're going to save, but here's the impact it's going to have on
people no, there was no evaluation of the impact it was going to have or what
it would do to the economy, or what it would do to the population in
Newfoundland and Labrador and what it would do for us for a credibility point of
view on the national and international stage.
Obviously, that was the first nail in the coffin of looking at whether or not
Newfoundland and Labrador was going to be able to move forward over the next
number of years when we were facing some financial challenges. There was no
doubt. Ontario were facing them. Alberta were facing them. Saskatchewan were
facing them. There is no doubt people had to change their approaches,
particularly those who were reliant on oil, like three and maybe four key
provinces were here in this country.
What had
to be done, there had to be a plan, a plan of action, a plan that was
sustainable and didn't do the major damage in one year that would be
irreversible for the future years, and that's what happened here. When you
didn't outline exactly the best infrastructure decisions that needed to be done
around investing in education you can't cut education. You can't cut health
care. You got to be able to sustain certain things. So if it means you have a
plan, a plan of action that says we know we've got some challenges here, we know
we're being watched by the bond agencies and that, but we're going to go in with
a plan.
Bond
agencies are fairly open to say, look, it doesn't have to be done in 18 months
or 24 months or 36 months; we'll give you a plan of action. We know you're
sustainable. Don't forget where our ratings went from 15-20 years ago where we
were to now having an A+ rating and people having the confidence in what we were
doing here, and looking at us as one of the key provinces that were going to
develop and have further growth. People were coming here investing. Financial
markets, when they come here and the financial institutes start investing in
your province, they have some vision; they know it's down the road. So they're
not expecting everybody to pay their bills, pay their mortgage off in the next
year or so.
But
that's what the Liberal administration did last year. They figured, look, we
want to be able to tick off something and say we're the greatest at financial
management, so we're going to be able to show a surplus on the backs of the
people of Newfoundland and Labrador without realizing the minute you start
imposing unbelievable, unacceptable and unobtainable tax regimes and hardships,
you're going to lose part of your populace. You're going to lose faith people
have. You're going to lose people who have some capital: the private sector, the
business sector, who could invest in driving the economy.
That
didn't happen. Our economy dropped on a mainstream that other ones that were
reliant on the oil industry were being projected to do, but then ours dropped
another percent or so because of the inactive plan and the inability to address
some of the particular needs here, and the fear that it imposed on people.
It was
never about how we find efficient ways of doing things; it was about cutting
things. And we've already determined this and it's already been exposed that 90
per cent of the cuts they made actually are going to cost more money in various
areas: in education and in health care; in delivering programs and services
within the infrastructure; within being able to drive tourism and drive
business.
All the
key things, the key pillars, the approach that was outlined last year of why
they could justify the cuts that are being made were going to be the exact
things that were going to save us for the long time. The opposite happened.
Every one of those indicators went down. Everybody involved in those industries
have said they faced not only hardship, but they've gone backwards: reversing
their ability to invest; reversing their ability to promote their produce;
reversing their ability to be able to attract new investment here.
Again,
that goes back to a simple concept of not listening to what people were telling
you. There were people I went to some of those consultations last year. I
won't talk about the ones this year; I'll get into last year, where people were
giving you particular outlines. I remember some of the outlines were around
post-secondary education, our college system, about efficiencies within the
college system, about doing proper training in the areas where we knew there
would be a demand, so that we could get back again to ensuring that our
tradespeople and our people who are skilled are employable, and that maybe we
can develop another offset type of industry. It could be in manufacturing. It
could in research and development. It could be in the technology world. It could
be in IT. It could be in anything of benefit that there's a market for in this
world.
Don't
forget, we're 20 years ahead of where we were 10 years ago because we had made
such an impact on the national and international market by our investments in
the oil industry and our use of technology, what our institutions, Memorial
University and CNA and even our private schools, had done in training. What the
Newfoundland and Labrador worker had done by travelling all over the world, by
showing their work ethic, showing their skill set, showing their innovation and
their ingenuity.
We had
already those doors were open. We just needed to find a way to tap into that,
and what better time to sit down and really analyze what you're doing, when
you're in a financial crunch, and be able to tie into all those other potential
avenues that are out there, by having a full analysis, by really looking at it.
By not just sitting down and saying, do you know what? Cut, cut, cut and not
realizing the impact. Then saying: cut, cut, cut, but do you know what? We're
going to be okay down the road because all these cuts will solve that. No.
As the
budget has indicated, all those cuts showed that what you were talking about
revenue in a particular area has not only dropped 10, 15, 20, dramatically. Some
industries now are teetering on surviving in this province because of the impact
that it has had on them.
I talked
to some people I'll just give you an example who bring in vehicles in
Newfoundland and Labrador, Harvey's and them, the car carriers that go around.
They're down 45 per cent. That's because people don't have faith in this
administration to be able to make sure that the economy grows. They don't have
faith in the fact that there's stability here and you can have investment. One
thing about Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, I give credit, they're smart
enough, they always put away for a rainy day.
I think
that was inbred in us. Particularly if you come from rural Newfoundland and
Labrador, you always saved because you never knew what was going to happen and
you didn't want to be reliant on your neighbour or another family member or the
government. You wanted to be able to stand on your own ground and do it. People
in Newfoundland and Labrador always still have that mindset and there's a few
dollars put away.
In times
when things were down, people didn't mind spending that to help us get over the
hump. They didn't mind spending a few extra dollars. They didn't mind investing
to keep a business afloat. They only did that because they knew they'd have a
chance to replenish that in a year or two because they had confidence the
government would set out a plan.
The
government would find a way to drive the economy. The government would find a
way to ensure their quality of life increased, didn't decrease, but what's
happened in the last 18 months, everybody has lost that confidence. As a result,
the few dollars they have, because don't forget, that's already got depleted,
not by their design or not by them living a lavish lifestyle or spending, but by
the government putting their hands in their pockets and taking money out, and
justified it by saying this is our approach to driving the economy. If it's on
gas tax, if it's on insurance tax, if it's a change on our income tax process,
if it's tax on fees and services for everything else that's done, all of these
were things that took away from being able to drive the economy.
Do
people realize, yes, there was going to have to be particular investments made
by the general population? I think people were pretty happy I can't say happy,
it's not the right word. They're never happy with increased taxes, but they were
pretty understanding to say, look, we're in a financial crunch. If you have to
increase my taxes by a per cent or 1½ per cent across the board, well that's
fair, because people who live on a fixed income at a certain level and a person
who has a middle income, a higher income, and an extreme successful income would
all pay in accordance.
That
would be fair; fair taxation, purely fair taxation, but that wasn't the approach
taken here. It was let's try to come up with 300-plus fees and services. Let's
try to kick at everybody. Let's try to do things that at the end of the day will
make so much confusion, people won't really know how much it's costing them
until it comes. So let's change when we implement some of these.
Insurance tax, people won't know until they renew their insurance. That might be
eight, 10 months down the road. So they won't see that. Their income tax, they
won't know that until they do that. Their levy, we're going to do that a year
down the road, so people will after be forgetting about that. The gas tax, well,
we'll spread that around. Let's pray that gas doesn't go up too much. That won't
be an impact, but that didn't happen. You saw the outcry, you saw the outrage
people had and you saw the impact it had on businesses. I've talked to
businesses who have taken two of their vehicles off the road because of the
increased cost on their insurance.
Don't
forget, there was another tax. There are all kinds of hidden taxes out of those
300-plus, the hidden tax. There was an insurance hidden tax put in there that
insurance companies have had to pass on. I spoke to people in the industry who
said well, we have a line for our expenditures and a profit margin process. So
that extra 2½ per cent, we're going to have to pass that on. So that's another
added 2½ to the 15 per cent. If that 2½ being added has to be calculated in
another way or there's a more administrative cost, well that's another cost to
your insurance company, and you know who they're passing that on to, to the
consumer.
Now
there are other taxes, all these other hidden things that are part and parcel of
what you do. When we hear some of the ridiculous things about the few
entrepreneurs and I give credit the creative entrepreneurs who are out
getting ice off icebergs to be able to promote their products and do specialized
things around water and distilling of products and all this. We're increasing
their tax space there and their permit costs tenfold, fiftyfold, a hundredfold
in some cases. It doesn't make sense.
Somebody
could not have sat down and said let's think about this because if somebody had
sat down and said, you know what, not only let's keep it where it is, if that's
sustainable, or let's reduce it in a way, let's find a way to market. So now
it's not five or six or eight people paying that permit fee to do that, there
are 500, and 500 of them are producing products and that, that can be sold all
over the world to promote Newfoundland and Labrador and create jobs in
communities like Twillingate, or Hant's Harbour, or Baie Verte, or the Burin
Peninsula, or anywhere else that they feel there are opportunities, people where
they can harvest these types of things.
Instead,
the ones that we have who are marketers don't forget, when they're also
marketing that, they're marketing our tourism industry because they're using
their websites. They're using their international abilities to go to trade shows
and that to sell their product. When they're selling their product, they're
selling Newfoundland and Labrador. That benefits everybody here. It benefits
every other industry. It benefits the taxpayers here and particularly, if I was
government, it benefits government because they're going to be the receivers of
any tax paid.
One of
the pillars was around tourism. Well, if you're going to promote tourism, would
you not try to promote the organizations and the industries that are unique and
are going to sell why tourists would come here? If we're talking about bits of
iceberg, if we're talking about iceberg water, if we're talking about unique
things that people can't get in an Asian country or they can't get in Saudi
Arabia or they can't get on the Prairies in Canada, well then, I think that
would be our approach.
When we
put in hindrances and stumbling blocks, and basically when we say we're going to
try to drive you out of business, it's not a good approach to improving the
economy and ensuring that we're ready for when we move to the next level. The
next level is the pillars they had. We're going to be innovative; we're going to
be creative. We're going to drive industries in a different way.
We all
bought into tourism. We've seen tourism flourish. Tourism was always around but
the last 10, 15 years, particularly the last 10 years it flourished as an
industry, with investments that the previous administration had made, but
particularly of people working in the industry.
This
wasn't just about money being given by government. That's an add-on, that's a
necessary support, but it's the great work that was done in our rural
Newfoundland communities. It was the great work done by our entrepreneurs. It
was the great work in promoting who we were. It was the great work in having our
ambassadors go out and sell what we do in this province. We've had hundreds
events over the years, and they come back from musical backgrounds, to acting,
to athletics, to comedians, to writers, to performers in every sector, to
average citizens who go out and promote the great things that are in this
province of ours. So we started to move that forward and we've gotten to a point
where we're at a billion-dollar business.
It is
amazing. I remember going to one of Hospitality Newfoundland's AGMs and sitting
around, and the spirit that was there, the hype. Because not only was it
something that was flourishing, but it was on their dime. It wasn't government
just throwing money at something, an industry, to see if it goes because we feel
we're obligated to do that. It was a partnership and that partnership was to
move forward.
When I
heard last year that first when this new administration took over one of their
pillars were going to be, yes, we're facing some financial crisis, we're going
to diversify the economy away from oil and here are one of the things we're
going to take and really move forward, I said great. No problem, great. I know
the minister gets up and sells that and great for him. I've been at a few
functions where he gets up and plays up all the positive things that are being
done. But words are one thing, actions are others too.
You've
got to be able to support industries, and to do that, you've got to give them
supports. Supports come in financial ways, they come in training ways and they
come in other partnership developments. They don't come in putting up
roadblocks, putting in hindrances, taking away from their financial ability and
making it more encompassing for them to not only operate as a business, but to
flourish and move forward.
That's
where the biggest challenge I have with this budget is. I mean we all know what
the challenge last year with the last budget was. It was just so many fees and
taxes it was just impossible for people to be able to sustain a quality of life
and it was impossible for young families, people who just graduated from an
education institution, to be able to move forward.
It was
impossible for businesses to grow their business. It was impossible for the
average person to take the few dollars they had and reinvest into the economy by
buying a product they needed, or doing something of benefit for them and their
family. It's unfortunate when we're pressured to a point where everything is
about let's not do it, can't do this.
How many
people I heard this in my district say: No, I told the kids we can't do
this, or I told my partner we can't do this, or I told my employees
unfortunately, guys, we can't do this. That's the negative. That's what we're
getting to, we can't do this. We can't do this because we don't have the
supports in play or we don't have the faith anymore because there's no plan of
action, there's no vision. There's no communication, there's no integration and
there's no consultation to ensure we find a way to move things forward.
When you
start hearing things about the infrastructure, our school systems, about parents
not only that, we didn't move beyond just the structure of building Coley's
Point or Riverside or St. Bernard's and all these, we've moved to instructional
programs within the existing ones. A lot of them some of them are overcrowded.
Thank God some of them are going to be addressed over the next number of months
because of the schools that were in play prior to this administration. They're
going to be continued and finished.
They're
talking about basic rights: inclusion education for kids, kids with hard of
hearing, kids with visually impaired, not having proper instruction because the
teachers don't have the ability, time wise, because of the caps on classroom
sizes. These are challenges.
You know
what, we've moved beyond just how much money's coming out of our pocket and
moved to the point where people are now fearful of some of the services that
they need to sustain a quality of life not only for themselves any more but for
their children.
They
talk about some of the challenges in health care, talk about particularly
seniors, what's been cut. When a senior living in one of our homes needs BOOST
so they can have energy to get up, even if it's in a wheelchair, to go
participate in some social activity within that home or within that hospital and
when that's taken away from them, family members have to scramble to try to come
up with the money to ensure they got that. People are doing without that.
Certain
basic things that people would have for quality of life, ensuring a bit of
dignity, these types of things. Those things are not being thought of. When
there's nickel and dime stuff, if you really want to sit down and come up with a
master plan, you find out what it is you can do, you find out through
integration on existing programs. You find out when is it we can meet our
targets.
You know
what, we can't at this point we can't crucify our own clientele and our own
citizens at this point right now at the expense of being able to tick off that
we balanced the budget. We'll worry about that down the road.
MR. SPEAKER (Warr):
Order, please!
MR. BRAZIL:
At the end of the day we need
to take care of our own people.
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
I remind
the hon. Member his speaking time has expired.
MR. BRAZIL:
Mr. Speaker, I'll have a
chance to speak to this again in the near future.
Thank
you.
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the
Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you very much, Mr.
Speaker.
It's a
pleasure to rise in the House this afternoon. As the Leader of the Opposition I
get a bit more time not a bit more, but a fair bit more time than other
speakers in the House.
I have a
number of topics that I'm going to raise and talk about this afternoon, some
that have been front and centre in the provincial media. Not only in the media
but front and centre on the minds of people over the last week, since late last
week when the people starting grasping an understanding of it and so on.
I want
to talk for a few minutes specifically about some items and some discussions,
events and so on that's happened in my own district and also similarly around
the province. Members have referenced last week being Volunteer Week and a week
to recognize the hard work and dedication that volunteers do throughout our
province. I want to join other Members in offering thanks, appreciation and
congratulations to the thousands and thousands of people throughout Newfoundland
and Labrador who volunteer their time in the best interests of others.
I think
that's the best way you can describe the benefits of people who do volunteer, is
they do so in the best interests of those around them. They benefit their
community. They provide assistance to sporting groups, to groups for
non-sporting organizations, for youth, teenagers, young adults and adults of all
ages as well, and provide significant value and quality of life to the people
that live in Newfoundland and Labrador.
We owe
all of them a debt of gratitude. I attended two events in my district
specifically for volunteers; one in Paradise. A big, big crowd, I think probably
the biggest crowd I've ever seen to a volunteer event. It was held in the
community centre and the town laid out a social.
An
interesting way they did it, Mr. Speaker. They have a social where they have
finger foods, coffee and cold beverages and so on at the beginning and a chance
for people to socialize and have a chat, because we know that when they do that
at the end of the event you do the formal event and then you have a social
after people are running out the door and have to go and so on. They do it
beforehand so people can have a cup of tea or a cup of coffee together and some
pickies' as people quite often to them as and a chance to chat and say hello to
others from their community and their neighbourhood.
Then
they had a formal event and gave out a long list of awards that were presented
to people who contribute to their community including some sporting awards, but
those who give to their community, citizen awards, volunteer awards and so on
and highlighted some of the great contributions those people make. It was
significant; it was impressive. What was also impressive was the number of young
people who provide opportunities in our community.
As well,
I attended an event in Conception Bay South on Thursday night with my colleague
for the District of Conception Bay South. I should back up about the event in
Paradise because my colleague for the District of Conception Bay East Bell
Island, who also has Paradise in the district, I know he attended an event in
Portugal Cove-St. Philip's on the same night. I was pleased to be there on his
behalf in Paradise on Tuesday night.
Then on
Thursday night, the Member for Conception Bay South and I, councillors and also
a very, very large group showed up for the event held at the Manuels River
Hibernia Interpretation Centre. It's a beautiful facility in Conception Bay
South. It was actually similar to the community centre in Paradise, the Rotary
Paradise Youth and Community Centre in Paradise. Both those facilities were
really put there as a result of the work of volunteers. I think they're both
good facilities, worthwhile and appropriate facilities to hold those events at.
But if it wasn't for volunteers, neither one of those facilities would likely
exist today so hats off to them.
The
Manuels River Hibernia Interpretation Centre is a first-class facility. It's
busy from morning until night. Lots of people attend for different reasons.
There's a beautiful coffee shop there which I know many, many people who go to
that coffee shop quite regularly. There's the exhibit on the Manuels River
what Manuels River has in fossils and the history of Manuels River. As well,
there's a theatre and there are meeting rooms; there's a gift shop and so on.
Plus, there's multi-use space as well that is used for everything from events
like I attended last week, to smaller meetings, to weddings that are held in
what is a beautiful facility.
One side
of it is full of glass overlooking the river and T'Railway there. It's just
absolutely a gorgeous facility. So if anybody is looking for a different place
to go for a cup of coffee, it's worth the short drive to go to Manuels and enjoy
the view and the landscapes.
As well,
Mr. Speaker, in Paradise and also in Conception Bay South in recent years, a
tremendous amount of work and effort put into development of outdoor spaces and
T'Railways. I use them regularly, regularly in both Paradise and in Conception
Bay South; absolutely beautiful first-class facilities. The Johnson foundation
has been instrumental in contributing and supporting the development of some of
those facilities as well, but first class.
So
anybody who's an outdoor person, who enjoys a walk, and I'll go back to Manuels
River because I know quite often people will park at the building, there's
T'Railway access on both sides of the building, one for the Manuels River trail
and one for the T'Railway itself, and you can walk, literally, for kilometre
after kilometre.
I think
right now in CBS, and I turn to my colleague for Conception Bay South, there's
over 20 kilometres now in Conception Bay South that's completed or nearing
completion. I think it's close to 20 kilometres and some of it goes through
heavily treed areas, while others actually go right along the coastline. It's
the old railway bed. It's now non-motorized. While there was a transition period
of a couple of years where people didn't like the fact they couldn't use
motorized vehicles on it, it's pretty much now completely a non-motorized
facility and it's become used as a great facility for families, for individuals.
So if
it's a cool or windy day and you want to stay amongst the trees, you can do
that. If you want to use a section along the coastline, it's beautiful. In the
evening, as the sun sets across Conception Bay, it's just an absolutely
beautiful place to enjoy the outdoors and some exercise. As I said, you can
always park at the Manuels River Interpretation Centre, when you finish your
walk, you can go back for a cup of coffee and a warm up or meet with friends or
whatever the case may be.
Again,
it goes back to volunteers who make these facilities available. I think it goes
without saying that the significant efforts by volunteers throughout our entire
province, throughout Newfoundland and Labrador, deserve a great level of
gratitude.
In this
year's budget, we're still trying to understand and get specifics.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Trying
to get specifics of how these types of groups and organizations may be impacted
by this year's budget. The details are not yet available. We're going through
the Estimates process, but we still are trying to understand how groups and
organizations will be impacted.
I've
talked to many myself and had calls initiated from organizations who are a
little bit worried. They know that core grants are being maintained, but it's
the other grants, the one-off grants and specific grants, that organizations
don't know about. Quite often, they're the grants that allow them to keep their
staff in place and program deliveries and services that they provide for all
kinds of reasons in the province, so hopefully before too long organizations
will get a better idea.
We know
there's a tremendous amount of roadwork. Members opposite have talked about some
of the roadwork needs. There's a tremendous amount of roadwork needs in our
province today. It's been a particularly long winter; we respect that. It's the
winter that won't quit, and we know that we have more freezing rain forecast for
tonight. We know that's going to create some difficulties and challenges for
people who are travelling, the motoring public and so on. Also, there are some
areas where significant roadwork is needed.
Again,
right in front of the Manuels River Hibernia Interpretation Centre there's the
Manuels River Bridge, an historic bridge; it's been there for years. The current
bridge hasn't been there a very long time but there's been, since the beginning
of time, a bridge to get across Manuels River of some sort, for decades and for
a very long time. But there's a section of roadway there right now that's in
terrible condition. I hear from people every single day. I know that the cold
patch method of filling potholes it's more of washboard than it is potholes
right now doesn't work, it is a very temporary measure but I can tell you it
needs significant repair.
My
colleague for Conception Bay South and I have been having those discussions as
well about some of those areas that really need work this year, and we look
forward to hearing about the plans from the Minister of Transportation and
Works.
We know
they talk specifically about identifying and addressing roadwork very, very
early but these are some of the areas that we haven't heard about yet. We don't
know what the plan is, but we know that Conception Bay South is a town now of
over 25,000 people. Route 60, Topsail Road, runs right into Paradise which has
over 20,000 people that's 45,000 people and runs right into Holyrood, which
is the Conception Bay centre area which is another highly populated area.
There's likely up around 60,000 people who travel through that area on a fairly
regular basis at some point of Topsail Road, Route 60. So a heavily used road I
would say, other than the Trans-Canada Highway and these Tier 1 highways; one of
the busiest roads in the province that needs work and attention. We look forward
to hearing more about that in the coming weeks hopefully not too long, Mr.
Speaker.
Mr.
Speaker, there are interesting comments and discussions going on in the province
this week and recently raised by the minister responsible for post-secondary
education, the Minister of Advanced Education and Skills interesting comments.
We heard some commentary earlier from one of my colleagues across the House and
he was taking shots about Twitter usage and so on. That's fine if he wants to do
that, but the Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Labour who represents
Corner Brook has been talking on Twitter and social media about Memorial
University.
I saw
there was a note on Twitter a short time ago where a reference was made. It was
kind of an interesting reference about the position that was taken by the
minister because the minister has come out quite hard. What I heard and what I
heard reported through the media was to suggest an allegation that Memorial is
fudging the books. He stood here in the House today and he talked about that and
gave his lengthy explanation for it, but he was certainly given the opportunity
today to clarify. I don't think he's clarified it. His comments today probably
raised further questions.
They're
very serious allegations. Very, very serious allegations for a Member of the
government, not only a Member of the government side of the House but a Cabinet
minister. A Cabinet minister in the government of our province to make
allegations against the decision-making people at Memorial University and
suggesting they were fudging the books in some way is pretty significant
statement to make.
In the
House of Assembly here we know that you're very much protected by what you say.
But when you go outside the House and you start saying those things outside the
House, it opens a completely new door to make allegations against individuals
who have very important roles and to suggest that somehow there's something
occurring that is inappropriate. If there is, then he should provide that
evidence and information to do so and if there's not, he should correct the
record.
It was
interesting that he was talking I know he's suggesting about high-priced
dinners. It was on April 10 and, again, some of this I saw on Twitter today
that the minister was under fire here in the House of Assembly, and from the
public as well, when he decided to open Marble Mountain. I think it was $10,000
or $11,000 a day was what he said the cost was going to be to open Marble
Mountain.
He
talked about it was going to grow an opportunity. That's what he said, Mr.
Speaker. Growing an opportunity when we asked about it and questioned and called
him out on it and said this is a significant expenditure at a time when I'm sure
the Minister of Finance would say we've got to watch every dollar we're spending
and be very careful and we have to measure it. The government likes to use words
of evidence-based decision making but it seemed a very quick decision to open
Marble Mountain.
Many
have suggested it was a political decision. The Member comes from Corner Brook,
represents Corner Brook himself and there was some suggestion it was even done
without the knowledge or approval of the Minister of Finance. Anyway, he
announced at a chamber of commerce dinner in Corner Brook, I hear, that Marble
was going to open for free for anybody who wanted to attend. Free to go there,
no charge, free rentals and so on.
When he
was called out the minister said: Well, you got spend money to make money. I
believe, actually, he said it here in the House and he said it several times:
You got to spend money to make money. It's an interesting comment. He also said
to give stuff away free is to incentivize future gains. It's an incentive for
future gains. To give stuff away for free is for future gains.
It was
okay. It was his district. He was promoting Marble Mountain. By the way, I lived
in Corner Brook, Mr. Speaker, and I believe you did, too, for a period of time.
When you moved out, I moved in. There was a period of time when I lived in
Corner Brook and I was an avid user of Marble Mountain. It's a fantastic
facility, no two ways about it. I remember it was kind of sad when the spring
came and the mountain was moving beyond its best-before date for usage and so
on.
We know
that when Marble this year announced they were closing, it was because it was
going to cost $10,000 a day to keep it open, was the answer given. The Minister
of Business had supported it and knew exactly what was taking place. The
Minister of Business actually said later he was given bad advice by the board;
threw the board under the bus. They do that a lot over there, Mr. Speaker. They
throw the board and the volunteers under the bus and said they were given bad
advice.
Then
along came the Minister of Advanced Education and Skills on his white horse and
said: We're going to open it, we're going to open it for the people. And now
this week we're going to do it because you've got to spend money to make money
and there's going to be an incentive for future gains.
Now this
week the very same minister is criticizing Memorial for doing what sounds like a
very similar thing, if not the exactly the same thing. He criticized them about
high expenditures for dinners because they use dinners and I don't know all
the figures and I don't know if there were 10 people at the dinner or two people
at the dinner. I don't know that. He criticized them for spending money on a
luxurious dinner to invite, utilize, or held to invite future potential staff
people, academics and so on to come to Memorial to meet with them and try and
bring them to Memorial.
He
criticized him for doing that when he says you shouldn't spend money to bring
people in here to I guess to incentivize the future gains or spend money to
make money, but when it was Marble Mountain in his own district it was okay to
do that. To say MUN fudged their books, to say MUN shouldn't be spending money
to create gains on one side, and then the other side it was okay when he did it
with Marble Mountain.
Mr.
Speaker, that's what people get concerned about. Again, I got this off Twitter
today. This came off Twitter today I saw this type of commentary. I know I'm
being more general than what was said on Twitter, but this was put on Twitter
today. And Twitter, that's where people express their viewpoints. No matter who
they are, if they're media or general public or commentators or whoever, this is
where they express their viewpoint. It was an interesting comment, that it's
okay to do it on April 10 but it's not okay to do it on May 1.
The
minister had a very lengthy media availability this afternoon where he talked at
some length about it and he talked about MUN anyway, he talked about it at
some length. Mr. Speaker, it's the type of things from a government that cause
the population to lose faith in their government. We've seen this over and over.
We've seen it many, many times. We saw it back when they promised the world.
There's
a commentary today in The Telegram
about the election in Nova Scotia that's going on. It was about the Liberal
Party in Nova Scotia. They were promising the world when those campaign promises
can't be kept, and we saw that. No job losses, no tax increases wham, that's
exactly what they did. They did contrary to what they promised. And then they
said, well, we didn't know. It's not our fault, we didn't know. They always say
that. It's never their fault, Mr. Speaker. Never, never, never is it their
fault.
Now we
have this conflict of interest matter which is not their fault either, but the
Premier says he would do it all again. So as I talk about this this afternoon
keep that in mind that the Premier said he would do it again. Actually, I think
his word was absolutely that he would do it again.
Conflict
of interest is not a difficult concept. It's not complicated. In our society
and especially when you're talking the highest levels of government, the highest
political level being the Premier and the highest bureaucratic level being the
clerk of the Executive Council it is seen to be unacceptable and unethical to
have the interest with respect to both sides and both parties, to have an
interest in both sides and both parties on a file, if it's a legal file, a
lawsuit, or it could be any number of any files. It is seen as unethical if you
have a personal interest and there's a government interest. It's seen as
unacceptable.
There
are times when, yeah, there's uncertainty about, well, I have an interest in
something or I was involved with that organization at one point in time and
those types of things. But the clerk of Executive Council and the Premier, being
the two highest levels of both sides, the political side and the bureaucratic
side, it's a significant level. It's a very, very, very careful or place to be
where all parties should be very, very careful. We still don't know how this
happened, and we still don't know the details of it.
On April
21, allNewfoundlandLabrador.com published a story. Now,
allNewfoundlandLabrador.com, I have yet to subscribe to it. It's not broadly
seen by people. It's a news service that has to be subscribed to. It's not
broadly seen. It was published in several days before there was any greater
public discussion on it.
What's
interesting, Mr. Speaker, as well, is that the clerk was interviewed by
allNewfoundlandLabrador and in his interview said the government is aware of all
his cases. He told them, he said government is aware of all his cases and he
said that he had an arrangement with the government; he had an arrangement with
the Premier to allow him to continue his law practice. That's what's in
allNewfoundlandLabrador.
It's
interesting to point out that the Premier has said he didn't find out about this
until it hit the media, the mainstream media last week. So the clerk knew about
it back on April 21 or earlier because he had been interviewed, but still the
Premier didn't know about it. He didn't make him aware of it, and the Premier
stands by and says he'd still do the same thing again. I just make that point,
Mr. Speaker, that he'd still do it anyway, even though it appears the clerk
didn't make him aware of it.
A
conflict of interest is a very serious matter to be considered in government. As
I said, it's not complicated. There was a conflict of interest. A conflict of
interest can be real or perceived. It can be an actual, factual matter of
conflict or it can be perceived that there could be a conflict. What some people
would say, it doesn't pass the smell test. It smells bad, it looks bad, sounds
bad, it shouldn't be. It causes people to lose trust in the relationship that
exists. It causes people to wonder and question what the reality is and what the
truth of it is when it comes to a conflict of interest when one is raised.
No one
is questioning it's a very important point, because a couple of times today in
Question Period and over the last couple of days the Premier has said we
shouldn't be questioning the integrity of Mr. Coffey and so on. Mr. Speaker,
this is not about Mr. Coffey himself. It's about decisions the Premier has made.
Mr. Coffey was a Liberal leadership candidate a few years back. He's a known
Liberal supporter. He has financially contributed to the Liberal Party. For a
long time been a solid known and public supporter of the Liberal Party, and has
engaged in public discussion on policy items and political items and on himself.
He's
done that for the last number of years and he gets appointed as the clerk and is
reserved as a non-partisan. Non-partisan means you don't have an attachment or
an allegiance to any particular party, to any particular political values. You
don't have an allegiance to any kind of particular values.
Mr.
Speaker, I know people who are deputy ministers and in significant positions
who've told me they don't even vote because they don't want to be seen as being
partisan or even participating in it. They want to keep clean, away from the
politics of it.
So we
have a clerk who was a formal Liberal leadership candidate, financial
contributor to the Liberal Party, spoken public on government policy matters,
and also has a private law practice, which he had a number of files. The Premier
says there were seven. We don't know for sure because we've never seen the list.
The Premier says there were seven, and we know at least two of them were
directly related to government.
The
clerk of the Executive Council becomes the boss of all staffers in government.
The clerk of the Executive Council is the most senior staff person in all of
government. So any government department who's touched directly or indirectly by
either one of those law suits becomes a conflict issue. It becomes a conflict
issue.
Mr.
Speaker, think of it this way, let's use Western health as an example. We heard
the minister say it's an autonomous agency. Today, he said health authorities
are autonomous from government and so on. Well, government provides them with
their funding. While they're supposed to be autonomous, government has control
over their funding.
We've
heard it from the Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Labour about
Memorial University. We've heard it quite clearly from the Minister of Advanced
Education, Skills and Labour who has said: If they don't do what I want them to
do, I'm going to cut their funding. So ministers do have control over these
autonomous organizations or a level of control. While they can't direct specific
line by line, they hold a big hammer over those agencies. If it's a health
authority, if it's Memorial University, the College of the North Atlantic, if
it's Newfoundland and Labrador Liquor Corporation or Nalcor, they hold a big
stick over those agencies.
The
Premier fired the CEO of Nalcor, even though they are a separate agency run by a
board of directors. The Minister of Advanced Education, Skills and Labour has a
hammer over Memorial University. So they all filter back to the clerk.
Every
minister over there, Mr. Speaker, has some kind of relationship with the clerk
or would have had some kind of relationship with the clerk, because the minister
and deputy ministers deal with the Premier and the clerk. A deputy minister
going to the clerk is the same as a minister going to the Premier, and lots of
times, I'm sure, they all meet together to discuss matters and issues. So they
all filter up to the clerk. So we have a problem here. We have a problem. The
Premier said there was walls put up. Mr. Coffey said there was Chinese walls
erected, as he called them. I think it is an old legal term. Not appropriate
these days, but that's what Mr. Coffey referred to them as.
They're
ethical walls. Yet, he's not been able to give a single example of how a wall, a
Chinese wall or ethical wall, call it whatever you want, was erected. He's not
able to show any kind of written direction that was given to say this matter,
this matter and this matter shall not go through the clerk's office. I'm
directing you, Minister of Natural Resources, to make sure that a matter
involving a lawsuit against Nalcor doesn't filter up to the clerk's office. When
it comes to you, Minister, the deputy minister should be hands off because the
deputy minister reports to the clerk. It just creates a conflict that's
unavoidable, Mr. Speaker.
At the
same time that the former clerk was suing an agency in which the minister has
control over the Premier himself had control over it because he fired the CEO
there last year, so he does have control over it. It's a conflict of interest
that shouldn't have happened.
Now, the
Premier will talk about transition periods. The Premier likes to talk about
transition periods. He talked today about me and Members over here, he said they
know it over there when you become a Cabinet minister there's a period of
transition, you put things in a blind trust and so on. The clerk is not a
Cabinet minister, Mr. Speaker, and I suggest they are different.
The
clerk was hired, employed to do a job, which should have been clear of conflicts
in the first place. But that couldn't have happened because he should have not
been the clerk in the first place. Not because he wasn't a good lawyer or
doesn't have a good track record as a hard worker and he's smart and educated
and so on, not because of that, but because he was politically involved.
In the
very first place, he was politically involved with the Liberal Party. So, the
first step, he shouldn't have been there. Second step, when he has his existing
conflicts, there was a very capable clerk in the position prior to him. She
wasn't dismissed or fired; she was given a different role and responsibility
within government. He could have kept her in place very talented and
hardworking, educated, very focused on giving best advice and so on; never gives
political advice, always gives best professional advice. He could have kept her
in place and said to Mr. Coffey, I'm going to give you the job in two months or
three months or six months or eight months. Once you've cleared all your
conflicts, I commit to giving you that job.
Well,
Mr. Speaker, the clerk of the Executive Council is the only person in government
who has access to everything. The clerk has access to Cabinet documents. He has
access to our Cabinet documents. The Premier doesn't. At least the Premier is
not supposed to have access to other ministers' and other premiers' Cabinet
documents, but the clerk controls those. A partisan appointment appointed by the
Premier of the province, the Liberal Premier of the province, and has access to
every document.
The
clerk approves all briefing notes before they go to the Premier. The clerk
organizes Cabinet meetings. The clerk approves the agenda, and all of the
Cabinet papers that go on the agenda go through the clerk's hands. It's
significant. There's no other position in the province like it, and the Premier
saw fit to appoint this person.
It was
interesting; I was down yesterday in the briefing room downstairs. When the
Premier held a briefing, the Minister of Justice was with him and he held a
briefing for the media. During that it was interesting to listen to some of the
comments that he made and he talked about. He obviously knew the significance of
this role. He obviously did. He knew that there were files that Mr. Coffey had.
Mr. Coffey is quite clear and said the government was aware of all of his cases.
The Premier said these were the only two I'm pretty sure yesterday he said the
only two that were remaining, but what are the other five?
I think
the reason why you have conflict policies and a belief there should not be a
conflict of interest is to ensure the public and the government and the best
interests of the province are protected. What we had happening was the clerk, in
the daytime, responsible to protect the government and the public and their
government and protect the province and, afterhours, suing that very same
government that in the daytime he protects. I mean, it's bizarre. It's
absolutely bizarre, unprecedented, never seen before.
One of
the items that came up yesterday was who knew about this. We refer to it as a
secret arrangement because none of us here in the House knew about it. Or at
least the best we can tell, we know the Minister of Justice knew only because
the Department of Justice was consulted. By the way, the Department of Justice
employees report to the deputy minister, reports to the clerk and they're asked
for an opinion if the clerk is in a conflict. I just raise that because that's
what happened, but the Minister of Justice knew.
So today
we asked in Question Period what other ministers knew. The Premier said the
Minister of Natural Resources didn't know. The Premier didn't know the lawsuit
was filed; he only found out about it through the media is what he said. He says
the Minister of Natural Resources didn't know.
AN HON. MEMBER:
He knew it was seven cases.
MR. P. DAVIS:
He did know it was seven
cases, yeah. He said he didn't know the lawsuit was filed but he would hire the
clerk again. He said he'd do it all again, but he wasn't made aware that it was
filed.
We know
that the Minister of Justice knew about it. We know that on Friday past the
Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development was on radio, public
radio, defending the decision of the Premier but he only found out about it
through the media; we know that.
We know
the Minister of Finance told us today in the House when asked that she only
found out about it through the media. There were three other ministers asked
today in Question Period. The Minister of Business, the Minister of Fisheries
and Land Resources and the Minister of Health were asked when they became aware
of it and neither one of them said; they put it off on deputy ministers as their
responsibility not all of them, but generally we've heard that from the
Premier as well, but none of them would say when they found out about it.
The
Minister of Children, Seniors and Social Development, I asked her three times
today and three times she was not allowed to answer. The Premier got up and
answered. The third time she did rise, but the Premier rose in front of her and
answered the question again. When it becomes difficult to get straight answers
on such an important matter, the only thing that happens, Mr. Speaker, is it
causes us and the people of the province to wonder more what happens.
My
colleague here, the Opposition House Leader, asked the Minister of Justice if he
would release the list. The Minister of Justice pointed out the principle in law
on solicitor-client privilege. We understand solicitor-client privilege. We
understand that, but we also understand the rights of people to know the facts.
Access to information we have legislation that specifically allows for the
solicitor-client privilege to be waived by the minister. The minister can waive
that right, which means he could decide if it's in the best interest of the
public to share that information.
The
minister could say this is a pretty serious discussion that's happening here,
people are very concerned about it, people are questioning how it happened or
how it could happen, national media are talking about it, bloggers are talking
about it, local media is talking about it, the people of the province are
talking about it and asking questions about it and are beyond, for the most
part, understanding of how something like this could be allowed to happen.
So it's
a pretty significant item, a matter for that government, in protecting their own
integrity and best interest and maybe if they released the list, it would cure
all the concerns about any other conflict. That's not difficult to understand.
If they released the seven, the full seven files, cases, or what they were, how
they were, some information about the seven, maybe they would clear up any
suspicion, thought or idea that the other five because we know about two in
any way presented a conflict of interest.
When the
minister stands firm and just says solicitor-client privilege, we're not going
to release it, no commentary about I respect the public's desire and I know this
is a big issue and this would solve the problem. He never said any of those
things. He just said, no, solicitor-client privilege; we're not going to release
it.
I would
suggest he would, especially when we've got four ministers who didn't know about
it or won't say they knew about it. We have one minister who wasn't permitted to
answer. We have two ministers who said they found out about it through the
media, and then they beat us up by saying it wasn't a secret arrangement. Well,
if people aren't told about it or know about it, then it was kept confidential
or it was kept secret. It was not shared with people.
There
were discussions. The Premier said that the clerk went to the deputy ministers
affected and had a discussion with them, yet the minister didn't know. That's
what we heard today. The Minister of Natural Resources didn't know but the
Liberal-appointed Deputy Minister of Natural Resources did know, but the
minister wasn't made aware. Now, the Premier spoke to that.
On
Health, the Health Minister today, I haven't had a chance to look at
Hansard yet and I stand to be
corrected, but my understanding of what he said today was that it was a meeting
it comes under health authorities but there was a discussion with the deputy
minister. The Minister of Health wouldn't say when he became aware of it or what
he knew about it.
What if
the Health Minister was sitting in the waiting room of the Premier's office
someday and the clerk came in and they had a discussion about Western Health or
doctors at Western Health and so on, because that happens. It's not unusual for
health authorities to brief ministers on issues and matters that are happening
at the health authorities. We have a backlog here, we have a shortage of doctors
here, we have a conflict with a particular doctor who's important to us, or
whatever the case may be and here's the issue.
Sometimes it's talked about because it may come up as a political question. Lots
of times we'll ask questions about matters that belong to those agencies, boards
and commissions and the ministers know all about it because they've been briefed
about it. So there is not just a simple divide. There is an overlap that exists
between agencies, boards and commissions and the Ministers of the Crown.
I would
suggest, Mr. Speaker, that potentially the decision by the government, by the
Premier, not to share this with Cabinet could have easily gone to Cabinet
ministers in a Cabinet meeting and said: I have something to inform you of now,
Mr. Coffey's coming to work as the clerk. And he's still winding up, is the
words the Premier used.
Mr.
Coffey said he was an arrangement to allow him to continue his practice. The
Premier said he was winding up his practice. He could have gone to Cabinet
ministers and said: I want you to be aware that he has some conflicts. There's a
conflict with Health and there is a conflict with Natural Resources and I want
to make sure that all ministers are aware that if any of this comes to your
hands that there's a conflict.
He could
have issued a memo to Cabinet ministers or a directive to say here is an issue
and I want to make sure that the best interests of the province are protected.
The only document and I even asked him today if there are any other documents
available so far dealing with this matter was the employment contract of the
clerk which doesn't include any reference to June 30, which is the date the
Premier has thrown out as the date that he wanted it wound up by. It just talks
about, it's a general contract that is much like any other contract that people
have when they're in these types of positions and they have a contract with
government.
Mr.
Speaker, it's not the first time that people of the province have questioned the
judgment of government. At this point in time we've heard words from the media
such as mind boggling, referring to lack of judgment. I think the
National Post Andrew Coyne is seen
on CBC as a commentator on a regular basis. I think he writes for the
National Post. He's written for other
national papers. Highly respected and highly regarded. I've seen him many, many
times on CBC in the nighttime. He's always very calm and very methodical and
understands.
I think
the word he used was wackadoodle.' Was that it, wackadoodle'?
AN HON. MEMBER:
Yeah.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Yeah. He referred to this
whole circumstance as wackadoodle' I think, is what he used. People asked
across the country, and here in Newfoundland and Labrador: How could this
happen? How could the Premier allow this to happen?
The
Premier could have easily said, could have come forward and said, I made an
error. I shouldn't have done this, and we'll work together to develop policies
to make sure this doesn't happen again. Mr. Speaker, I think the matter would
have been over. I wouldn't have used my time here today talking about it as long
as I have this afternoon, because the Premier would have (inaudible). I've done
that in the past, where I've said I made a mistake and I shouldn't have done it
and I should have given it more consideration, considered it further or I never
thought it through or I should have done something differently, but the Premier
said he would do exactly the same thing again.
While
we're talking about a conflict of interest, he likes to divert the conversation
to other matters in other areas. Today, in Question Period, I know he went after
the House Leader for the Third Party on an unrelated topic and it doesn't do
anything to change how people feel about it.
Mr.
Speaker, I don't know of another topic since I've been in Opposition. We had a
budget last year that solicited fast and harsh reaction from the people of the
province; protests out here, people were upset. Three hundred fee increases, 50
new fees. Three hundred fee increases, all still in place with the exception of
half of one of them and people were really upset.
This one
is very different. This one is different than that because people are not angry.
They sound well, they're angry but they also sound disappointed. They also
feel and sound like they're let down by it. Instead of saying I made a mistake,
we're going to move on and do better the next time, he and his Cabinet all the
Members over opposite, over the last couple of days, we've watched them over
here. We've watched the responses to Question Period and the Premier's
commentary and so on. They're all over there applauding and cheering and
defending the Premier in what he's done.
I've had
people call me from other districts besides my own and say: I'm afraid to call
my MHA or I'd like to call my MHA, but is everyone supporting what the Premier
has done here and so on? We see that. We see people over there supporting the
Premier in the decision he's made and how he's handling this, and I don't get
it. I just don't get it. The people of the province, the people I'm talking to
are saying that they don't get it either, and the media is saying they don't get
it either.
There
has been lots of opportunity to sort this out and to allow this to happen. I
really believe, Mr. Speaker the opportunity to sort this out and to find a
better way forward. I believe that what's taken place here has potentially
compromised ministers, because ministers there was a conflict of interest that
ministers weren't made aware of when they're in a very significant role. They
didn't know about it, they weren't told about it so they could protect the
public from that perception or believed conflict of interest.
Now the
Premier has said, yes, he filed a lawsuit but he wasn't going to follow up with
it. He gave him his word that he wasn't going to follow up with it. Well, that
may be the case. We don't really know. That could be the case but the Premier
should have taken action on this in the first place. There was a mistake when he
appointed him.
When
there was a conflict the same day he became the clerk, he filed a lawsuit
against Western Health on the very same day. He didn't pass it off to anyone
else. That conflict continued, the Premier has said. Then in April month, filed
a new lawsuit against Nalcor, an agency of the Government of Newfoundland and
Labrador and the Premier didn't know about it. Still nothing was taken, or
ministers weren't advised and warned that we have to make sure we protect
ourselves from any conflict of interest, because conflict of interest looks
after an interest other than the one we're all here to do, the job to do, that's
to the best interest of the province.
I went
through Hansard last night and I had a
look at Hansard from yesterday because
I asked a number of questions in Question Period yesterday. All of Question
Period was consumed with it yesterday and, for the most part, most of it again
today. I went through how many times we asked a question and we just simply
didn't get the answer.
I asked
the question: Was caucus and Cabinet made aware of it? The Premier never gave an
answer. He gave an answer. He got up and talked for 50 or 60 seconds, but he
never gave the answer.
I asked:
Did he seek any ethical or legal advice before hiring? He didn't answer. He
talked about political appointments. He says he wasn't appointed because of any
political affiliation or anything like that, a good guy and all the rest. No
doubt, that wasn't the issue, as I said earlier, if he was a good guy or not or
a capable lawyer or not.
We asked
question after question which he just didn't answer the specific question that
was asked. The Conflict of Interest Advisory Committee was talked about. It was
talked about again today here in the House, earlier in the House today, and
whether the Conflict of Interest Advisory Committee was convened and they
weren't. So it looks just like a lapse of judgment, the work wasn't done to
protect the province and the Premier is defending his decisions, defending the
appointment of Mr. Coffey and defending the decision to allow him to be clerk
and to continue with his law practice at the very same time.
Again,
Mr. Speaker, it was unexplained back last Easter when we had some people call
it the flag flap. The Premier said there was no policy on the courtesy flag. We
said, well, yeah, there is a policy. I've seen the policy myself when I was
premier. No, no, no policy and then ATIPP, access to information. A few weeks
later, everything calms down and goes away and we find out, well, there was a
policy and he had a policy.
We saw
the fiasco that happened with the former CEO of Nalcor when he was terminated.
The Premier argued that he resigned. The Auditor General said no, he was
terminated and the Premier says no, that's someone else's fault. That's the AG's
fault; he doesn't understand it. Ed Martin quit; he wasn't fired. Not only that,
before he was fired or before he was quit, if you ask the Premier, he already
had Mr. Stan Marshall lined up to take over the role.
We've
asked for information and details on any conflict of interest on Stan Marshall
and the Premier has been very clear to say that is the responsibility of Mr.
Marshall. I don't agree with that, Mr. Speaker. I do not agree with that.
Fundamentally, I don't agree that it's Mr. Marshall's responsibility for
someone to say just trust Mr. Martin because it's up to him.
Quite
likely, maybe there's no conflict. We don't know. Maybe there's no conflict of
interest. But when we ask if there's a conflict of interest and we can't get the
answers, that causes people to be concerned. People immediately will think are
they hiding something. Is there something being hidden they don't want us to
know about? We didn't know there was a conflict of interest with Mr. Coffey, but
is there something that we don't want people to know about?
The
resign signs last year the Premier publicly stated, look, no one in my office
did anything to have those signs removed. Access to information, and guess what
we find out? Someone in his office did make efforts to have the signs removed. I
don't think it resulted in the signs being removed, but they certainly contacted
Memorial University to see if they were responsible for the polls, with the
intention of having the signs removed. So there was steps taken by his office,
even though he said there wasn't and stood by that.
Mr.
Speaker, we have a very important matter, longest standing industry in
Newfoundland and Labrador, very important to rural parts of Newfoundland and
Labrador, and that's the Newfoundland and Labrador fishery.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR. P. DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Very
important, most important, longest standing industry in the province and some
have called it, referred to it as the largest, longest megaproject in
Newfoundland and Labrador. I think that's a fair commentary on what the
Newfoundland and Labrador fishery is.
We know
right now that there's a considerable amount of unrest in the fishery. We know
that ice is a problem. We know that the most recent assessment on the stocks of
a variety of species in the fishery is of concern and the science that's been
utilized and the conclusions reached are of concern and are a matter of debate
on the accuracy of them.
I'm not
in a position to say they're right or wrong; I'm saying that in Newfoundland and
Labrador today there's discussion about the appropriateness or the reality of
the results of those assessments. Pricing is an issue. Processing, for people
who work in dotted communities, remote communities all around Newfoundland and
Labrador, whose communities rely on the fish plant, whose families rely on the
fish plant, children who live there rely on the fish plant, people rely on the
fish plant for work and income, there are a lot of unknowns this year, Mr.
Speaker a lot of unknowns.
During
the Easter break over the last couple of weeks, there was a lot happened in the
fishery. We saw protests. We saw Mr. Gillett down on the hill in White Hills. We
saw protests at offices and so on. We saw a lot of people who were upset with
the lack of answers and the lack of unity in the fishery.
I think
that's probably the fairest way to describe it, because there are different
forces within the fishery that right now are fighting against each other. Mr.
Speaker, they're settled by leadership. It's a leadership that settles those. I
wrote the minister during the Easter break and received a response back from him
today on it received it from him this morning, and I appreciate the response I
received from the minister, and that's fairly quick only a week or so, 10 days
before I got the response back from the minister, and that's fairly quick. I
appreciate the fact of getting a response from the Minister of Fisheries and
Lands. But still, people want to see leadership is not just about what you do
behind the boardroom door and discussions and plans you're laying out. It's what
you tell people you're doing. It's about people feeling like that's my guy.
My
colleague for Cape St. Francis, when I saw him speak on the funding announcement
a couple of weeks ago, when I saw him there I watched it; I wasn't there. But
I saw it on the news that night and I thought to myself, if I worked in the
fishery, I'd say that's my guy right there. That's the guy right there
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. P. DAVIS:
That's my guy, because he
talked very matter of fact and he talked about the importance of the fishery and
he talked about the need, and he's talking about it numerous times about the
need for leadership.
I was
down in his district on Saturday and paid him a visit on Saturday down to his
district. While I was there, we talked about the fishery. We talked about people
actually out on Saturday fishing. Talked about ice and the risk to gear and
equipment and so on to ice. What happens if their gear is torn to shreds, ripped
up because of ice, and destroyed because of ice, or lost because of ice? Then
they have to replace it. Is anyone or is government doing anything to support or
assist them on their risk?
We had
all those discussions. I tell you, I call him when I got questions about the
fishery, because I'm by no means an expert on fishery. I'm a townie and I'm
certainly by no means an expert on the fishery, but I'll talk to that man right
there, the Member for Cape St. Francis, when I want to talk about fishery.
His own
family relies on the fishery and he's fished himself. I heard a story he can
tell it himself, but I'll tell you the story. How old were you when you first
started?
MR. K. PARSONS:
(Inaudible) 13.
MR. P. DAVIS:
He was 13, his first job in
the fishery, carting fish, lugging fish and carrying fish 13 years old. He
worked in the fishery and has been attached to the fishery ever since my hat
off to him.
But it's
a time for leadership in the fishery. In 2014-2015, there was a lot of work
being done on the fishery fund. My colleague for Ferryland here was front and
centre involved with that. We wrote the prime minister in 2015, and I have it
here somewhere. I asked the prime minister, because the federal election was
coming I asked the prime minister what his position was on the fishery fund.
He was in the Opposition at the time. He wanted to be prime minister at the
time.
The
prime minister wrote me back and committed that Newfoundland and Labrador would
get that fund. That Newfoundland and Labrador was giving up a long-standing
policy in the best interest of the country, and being compensated for giving up
that policy. He wrote me and he committed to it. He committed to it in 2015. I
don't know what happened since then. We've asked questions on it many times.
We've asked questions here.
We've
had ministers get up opposite and say we're negotiating, we working on it. We
didn't know what there was to negotiate because the plan on the fund was clear,
but we suspected and we felt the fund wasn't going to come to Newfoundland and
Labrador like was committed to by the now prime minister. It wasn't going to
come here and we worried about that, and I know the fishery worries about that.
The fund
was very simple. It was built on five pillars, and they were all about
rebuilding the fishery. If there was an issue that was going to impact
communities and rural parts of our province, the fund could also be used to help
that out. Something has gone astray since then, because instead of a 70-30 fund,
$280 million from the federal government, $120 million from the provincial
government for a $400 million fund, there's a lower level fund now being shared
along Atlantic Canada.
Newfoundland and Labrador gives up its long-standing policy on MPRs, minimum
processing requirements. It essentially says I've had people say, what's MPRs.
Minimum processing requirements are when a boat lands at the dock in a small
community in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, what's aboard that boat is
processed in Newfoundland and Labrador. That's the policy.
The
European Union wanted Newfoundland and Labrador to give up that policy in order
to enter in the CETA agreement, the Comprehensive Economic Trade Agreement
between Canada and the European Union. They wanted Newfoundland and Labrador, of
all the provinces, to give up that.
Other
provinces had deals, too. There were agreements on wine for Quebec; cheese and
dairy.
MR. HUTCHINGS:
Lumber in BC.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Lumber in BC had their own
one-off deals to protect those industries that were important to them. The wine
industry and cheese and dairy industries are very important in other areas. The
lumber industry in Western Canada is very important to them and they were
protected.
It was
interesting, the minister responsible, Minister Fast, who I've had discussions
with since then as well Minister Fast of the day was the minister responsible
for the federal government. He's from BC and they protected forestry in BC. In
Newfoundland and Labrador it was to protect the fishery, but there was
opportunity for new markets, for industry development, for infrastructure
development.
I've
been in lots of fish plants around the province. I tell you, they're not easy
places to work. I only visited there but my visit there, it wasn't hard to
conclude they're not easy places to work; cold, concrete, damp conditions.
People work long hours and overnight. Quite often they work 24 hours a day and
so on overnight, very, very difficult.
That's
what the fisheries fund was supposed to be. We suspected very early that
something on the campaign promises that were made by the Liberals was going off
the rails, and it turned out to be right. It turned out to be right.
MR. HUTCHINGS:
What happened, I wonder?
MR. P. DAVIS:
Yeah. Well, that's a good
question: What happened? Yes, what happened, because we're finding out more as
times goes on, Mr. Speaker.
I can
tell you one thing that's becoming clear, the Government of Newfoundland and
Labrador, the current Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, the current
Liberal Government of Newfoundland and Labrador certainly didn't fight for that
fund for the Newfoundland and Labrador fishery. That's becoming very clear.
MR. K. PARSONS:
I think the premier of Nova
Scotia and New Brunswick did.
MR. P. DAVIS:
Yes, I think you're right.
There's no doubt, we know now that other jurisdictions were lobbying hard for
Newfoundland and Labrador not to get that fund and there was work underway for
Newfoundland and Labrador not to get that fund. We're not sure what Newfoundland
and Labrador was doing to protect the fishery in Newfoundland and Labrador. As a
result, if it was, Newfoundland and Labrador lost. Newfoundland and Labrador has
lost.
I've
heard commentary to say, look what we're doing for search and rescue. Search and
rescue wasn't part of the fund that Prime Minister Trudeau had committed to.
Search and rescue is not part of that. Development of wharves, small harbours,
small
AN HON. MEMBER:
Crafts and harbours.
MR. P. DAVIS:
small crafts and harbours funding was always separate from that. That was
funding beside the fishery fund that was happening. It sounds to us now like
some of that funding is being mixed in with, well, look what we're doing for
you, look what we're doing for the Newfoundland and Labrador fishery when they
were supposed to be separate.
Mr.
Speaker, when we come to work every day as Members of the Opposition during
the Easter break we had numerous discussions and so on. We come to the House of
Assembly here and we have limited opportunities to talk about what's happening
in the province and to talk to government and question government. In Question
Period we have 25 minutes to question government. We have opportunities such as
this to talk about matters that are important.
We know
government has the benefit of doing announcements, and has the power and thrust
and financial ability of government behind them to do that's the way it works.
In government you make announcements. You roll out announcements. You have
numerous resources available to you as you do those announcements. We had them
when we were in government. They have when they are in government, but we come
every day and prepare for the House of Assembly.
One of
the challenges we have faced in this year is there's so much material. There are
so many things of concern for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. What matters do
we bring up in Question Period? We get emails and messaging from people all the
time. I got several today before, during and after Question Period about what we
should be asking. Suggesting, ask them this? Don't let them they didn't answer
the question. We get those commentaries from people all the time.
So we're
going to continue to do our job. I know all Members come to the House of
Assembly, elected by their constituents to represent them and to do their best
in the House. Sometimes you fall off your way there, but you should always try
to find your way back.
As an
Opposition, I'm very proud of the team we have over here. I'm very proud of the
staff we have working for us. I'm very proud of the people that support us
throughout Newfoundland and Labrador. We'll continue to question the government.
We'll continue to be the Opposition that we were elected to be. We'll do our job
in questioning government to ask for details and explanations.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR. P. DAVIS:
And, Mr. Speaker, we will be
an Opposition for all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
I remind
the hon. Member his speaking time has expired.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Minister of
Advanced Education, Skills and Labour.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. BYRNE:
Thank you very much, Mr.
Speaker.
What a
pleasure to rise and to follow the eloquence of the Leader of the Opposition,
much appreciated for the opportunity to rise in some rebuttal to some of his
remarks but to refer of course as well to some of the expenditures of the
Government of Newfoundland and Labrador.
The hon.
Member took great time and pains to rebut and to dissuade against any advantage
or benefit from the marketing initiative of Marble Mountain. Well, I don't know,
and then he swayed into a discussion about MUN and sort of fused the two
together. That Marble and MUN, I guess where they both begin with the letter M,
must have some similarities. Well, Mr. Speaker, when you have to kind of sort of
grasp to find an argument about MUN and Marble you've already lost the debate I
think, because you really don't have a whole lot to offer.
Let me
give a little experience about what we did with Marble Mountain. To put it in
perspective of some of the things that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and
Canadians generally can also enjoy this year besides an opportunity to
participate for the very first time in some skiing and to understand what a
wonderful sport, what a wonderful activity that is and how good it is not only
for themselves but for the economy.
Really,
what this debate should be about is whether or not the hon. Member feels as
though it's totally appropriate, as clearly the hon. Member does, that MUN raise
revenue, additional revenue, on the backs of students before ever considering
any of their own expenditures.
That's
the real debate here, Mr. Speaker. It's not surprising that the hon. Member, the
Leader of the Opposition, wouldn't want to necessarily engage in that debate
because, as we know, in 2015 when he was premier, he made a very, very profound,
direct statement: This could be the last year of the tuition freeze. When he was
premier, he said that the tuition freeze from here on in must be considered on a
year-by-year basis. There are no guarantees for the future.
Now, Mr.
Speaker, this government, despite many of the fiscal challenges that we're left
with, what did we do as our value? We kept the tuition freeze for Memorial
University of Newfoundland students.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. BYRNE:
But at the same time, we
asked MUN to do something something I think that's quite reasonable. We asked
MUN to look at its expenditures. They did not and now of course they're
examining what they will call opportunities for revenue increase, tuition
increases.
Well,
Mr. Speaker, let's get back to Marble Mountain. The hon. Member, after 13 years
or 14 years of running Marble Mountain, had no problem whatsoever with operating
Marble Mountain under a subsidy. Now, all of a sudden says that subsidy, b'y,
that has to go. That's a wrong thing.
Now,
they had no problem with it, but do you know what? I can understand why they
would want the subsidy because of course it is a great economic generator. Do
you know what else is a great economic generator? Pippy Park. Pippy Park with
its 27-hole golf course it does receive a subsidy, but it's a great economic
generator for the City of St. John's and surrounding.
They
don't have a problem with Pippy Park, but they do have a problem with something
on the West Coast. Let them figure that out and when they come for the next
election, sometime soon, if they ever come out to the West Coast, they can stand
up and say: By the way, we're against Marble Mountain. We're against the
long-term care. We're against the new hospital. We're against a whole lot of
things. We're against the new land office, the headquarters coming to they can
explain that to the electorate in the next election; best of luck to them.
Now, Mr.
Speaker, what I want to talk about as well, how outrageous was it to actually
offer one weekend where those who did not already have a pass, where one weekend
they could get an opportunity for some free skiing to experience Marble Mountain
and to decide whether or not they wanted to buy a pass?
Well, if
it was really ridiculous assumption, what I'd ask is and they are dead set
against it, and I'm sure the people throughout Newfoundland and Labrador, who
are watching the House of Assembly right now, following the proceedings of the
House of Assembly, are saying where is he going with this. Well, here's where
I'm going with this. It's not unique.
Did you
know that right now throughout all of Canada in the national park system the
Government of Canada is offering free park passes, not for one weekend but for
the entire year of 2017? Right up until December 31 any Canadian can go to any
national park free of charge because it's offering free passes.
Do you
know what? That's going to cost $6 million in lost revenue but why the
Government of Canada is doing it is because they feel there's a value to it.
Let's bring people back to our national park system. Let's get people to
re-explore our nation's treasures: our national park system. It makes sense. So
instead of one week, or one weekend, for the entire year people can go and
attend, go to a national park free of charge.
Do you
know something? Right here in St. John's, The Rooms fantastic institution
regularly offers free admission to The Rooms. I think, right now, it's on
occasion of the first Saturday of every month, sometimes they do it for an
extended period, but they have regularly offered free admission to ensure that
everyone can gain access and so that everyone gets an opportunity to explore its
marvels and wonders.
Lost
revenue, not a problem for the Progressive Conservative Party, not a problem
with that and that's good because they understand a little promotion is a good
thing. But they have a problem with one weekend of skiing a year.
Well,
there's another organization that offers a freebee right now. It's called VIA
Rail. Did you know that in Canada if anyone has any constituents who have
anyone between the age of 14 and 25, did you know you can get a VIA Rail pass, a
60-day pass, which you can use to go on any train anywhere in the country for 60
days straight, back and forth, back and forth, any route you want, no limit on
the number of trips you take for $700 a loss of thousands of dollars per pass
but $700. VIA Rail sees this as an important opportunity because they want to
get people back on the trains. So for $700 anyone between the age of 14 and 25,
for 60 straight, consecutive days, you can go on any train in the country, back
and forth and back and forth and back and forth. Fill your boots. What a great
offer, Mr. Speaker. It will cost some money to do it, but it's a smart thing to
do.
Now, the
Conservatives, they haven't said that they're for or against it; they just don't
really mind. That's okay, but as long as it's not a Newfoundlander who benefits,
they're okay. Do you know what? There are no trains, expect for in Western
Labrador, on the Island of Newfoundland. So of course we don't necessarily get
to take full advantage of that. My hon. colleague always reminds me of this,
that we do have a train system in Labrador, don't ever forget, and a passenger
service. But of course that's not part of the Via Rail, so they don't get it.
But
Marine Atlantic now, here's an example. Come on, listen, listen, listen; don't
huddle, listen. Marine Atlantic, this summer, is offering anyone who does a
return fare booking for the summer gets a $50 gas certificate. No problem with
that, that's a great thing, that's a good investment, that's a great investment
in our province, a $50 gas certificate. I think it's a great investment. It's
going to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to give out $50 gas certificates.
They don't have a problem with that, but they got a problem with one weekend of
free ski rentals and one weekend of free passes. That's a big, big issue. And
that is why I should not talk about MUN, according to the PCs, because they seem
to have absolute comfort in the fact that $700 suppers are the norm there.
Why
would the Minister of Advanced Education and Skills speak up about $700 suppers?
We asked Memorial University of Newfoundland to consider their discretionary
spending and before they impose additional costs, tuition hikes on students,
before they ask for more money from taxpayers, that they simply consider their
own costs, their own expenditures and, in particular, their discretionary
expenditures.
We know
that from an academic point of view there are tenured professors, there are
relationships and arrangements that cannot be altered, nor should they be, but
there is significant amount of funds that are spent on travel and hospitality.
There is significant amount of expenditures on a number of different items. We
asked Memorial University of Newfoundland to consider examining those expenses,
before raising costs on students, before raising revenue on the backs of
students, that they lower their cost first. That makes a lot of sense.
They
don't like that. They think that's a wrong attitude to take. Well, Mr. Speaker,
I think it's the right attitude to take.
Now,
they would like to suggest that this is ridiculous because you're interfering;
you're meddling with the affairs of Memorial University of Newfoundland. They're
suggesting that something about autonomy is being broken here. Well, there's
been a great discussion about autonomy at Memorial. It was spawned from a
particular incident.
In 2008,
the office of the presidency was brought into question when a former minister of
Advanced Education and Skills decided that the selection committee for the
president was incapable of doing the job and rejected the two applicants, or two
nominees that the selection committee had brought forward. Mr. Eddy Campbell,
who was then acting as the president I understand, was rejected, left Memorial,
went on to become elevated to the presidency of the University of New Brunswick.
And claims of undue interference rang true.
There
are two words that describe this situation. I think the words are Joan Shea. I
think the words are Progressive Conservative interference. From those
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
I remind
the hon. minister that he shouldn't use proper names when discussing someone who
is not former Members of the House who are not here to protect themselves.
MR. BYRNE:
Thank you very much, Mr.
Speaker.
I'm a
firm believer that rules should be followed and that when you break those rules,
there are consequences. I withdraw unreservedly. Unreservedly I withdraw those
remarks.
Now,
there were rules that were broken all right when the PC government decided they
were going to choose the president, when they were going to interfere in the
entire process and scrub all of the nominees from the university.
Here's
the thing, from that came a very lengthy discussion within MUN and within
government as to what exactly is the definition of autonomy. It became very
abundantly clear the office of the president, the senior positions and the
selection of the chairperson of the Board of Regents: these are things that must
remain within the autonomy of the university. That's what the discussion
followed.
What was
really interesting is that scholars and experts came forward and said: The role
of the university within the province, within our society, it's so important, it
is so embedded in each and every one of us, the government this is what the
university said: The government has an important role to play, the people have
an equally important role to play and all stakeholders should feel comfortable
about voicing opinion.
In fact,
the discussion went ever further. It said: Tension between the government and
the university on matters of administration is healthy. It's actually warranted
and desirable because it means in the spirit of a university, in the spirit of
free expression, in the spirit of debate, tension promotes ideas.
That was
the conclusion of the governance review of Memorial University of Newfoundland
and the scholars that came forward, in response and in reply to the absolute
undue interference of the former PC government in the selection of the
presidency. They said that matters of utmost importance of the governance of the
university must be maintained within the autonomy of the university, but matters
of administration, which sometimes create a source of friction, should indeed be
encouraged because it leads to a better result.
Now, I
would not do as one of the hon. Members did today and sort of begin a discussion
about whether or not the government should start dismissing senior executives.
Mr. Speaker, this is not 2008. This is 2017. We respect Memorial University. We
have a disagreement. We have a serious disagreement about whether or not
Memorial University of Newfoundland should be considering raising additional
revenue from students, from parents, when they have not fully examined their
expenditures.
The
university has come forward, and it's vice-president of academic in particular,
and said: We have. There is absolutely not a dollar left to be able to spend
that's discretionary. There's not a dollar left to cut. And then it came forward
at the town hall session, well, what about the $700 supper that you hosted? It
came back to say, well, if we can't have a $700 supper, what do you expect us to
eat, a peanut butter sandwich? Do you know what? That's the words of the
vice-president academic. I could make great hay about that, but really, really
what that speaks to is there seems to be a culture of entitlement that really
needs to be addressed.
When
you're raising money, guess who is paying for that $700 supper event ultimately?
It's either the taxpayer or the student, or both. So we simply asked the
university to consider, before raising revenue on students, that they consider
their own expenses first. Exactly the way government departments have done,
exactly the way other agencies, boards and commissions have done. We understand
the university is different. We understand that with the position of tenure,
with the whole notion of academic freedom there are certain things that the
university must indeed stand pat and firm on, absolutely, but there is a huge
amount of administration which has nothing to do with the academics of the
institution.
This is
not a debate about nature versus nurture. This is not a debate about evolution.
This is not a debate about Euclidean geometry versus the merits of Descartes
mathematics. This is a debate about whether or not the university is spending
the funding that it has available to it as efficiently and as effectively as
possible. That's what this is about.
Now the
PCs, after standing up in 2015 and saying the future of the tuition freeze is in
doubt, it will be handled on a year-by-year basis from here on in, we cannot
guarantee anything. We on this side said, you know what? One of our values for
Newfoundland and Labrador students, there must be a tuition freeze. We had put
$56 million on the table to be able to encourage a tuition freeze.
We
supply, today, more money to Memorial University of Newfoundland from taxpayers
than the Government of Nova Scotia provides to all 10 of its universities
combined. That's how much this government values post-secondary education and
higher learning.
We value
Memorial University of Newfoundland. It produces greatness. It produces great
scholarship. It produces great students. It produces great graduates. It
produces great research. It produces great value to our economy, to our social
well-being, to all of our society, but we also understand that it's an expensive
institution. To get that value you have to spend a little money to make a little
money, but at the same time, when you're spending a little bit of money you
should also always consider whether or not that money is being spent as
effectively and as efficiently as it can.
It turns
out a $700 supper is A-okay by the university, while they're at the point of
raising revenues on the backs of students. That is an examination each and every
one of us as Members needs to examine that question and determine whether or not
it should hold past.
MR. SPEAKER:
Order, please!
Noticing
that it's 5:30 in the afternoon, this House now stands adjourned until 10
o'clock tomorrow morning.
On
motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, at 10 a.m.