Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Lynn Verge, M.H.A. (Humber East) substitutes for Jack Byrne, M.H.A. (St. John's East Extern), and Danny Dumaresque, M.H.A. (Eagle River) substitutes for John Crane, M.H.A. (Harbour Grace).

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the House of Assembly.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Oldford): Order, please!

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I welcome everyone to the Government Services Estimates Committee meeting. I welcome the minister and his staff, and at this time I will introduce the committee.

To my left is Walter Noel, the Member for Pleasantville. The vice-chair of our committee is Roger Fitzgerald, the Member for Bonavista South. Sitting in for John Crane is Danny Dumaresque, the Member for Eagle River; Lloyd Matthews, the Member for St. John's North; Ms. Lynn Verge, the Member for Humber East.

MS. VERGE: Do you have the letter authorizing me to replace Mr. Byrne?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, we do.

I was going to say that we were doing the estimates for the Department of Works, Services and Transportation and the Public Service Commission, but I just found out that the Public Service Commission comes under Mr. Baker, so it's just the Department of Works, Services and Transportation this morning.

Before I allow the minister an opportunity to introduce his staff, I want to say that the format we're using is that the minister gets fifteen minutes to introduce his staff and his estimates. Then we go to the vice-chair, who gets fifteen minutes to question the minister and accept responses, and then we rotate on a ten-minute basis, so that's the way we'll be going.

Without any further ado, I would ask the minister if he would introduce his staff. I would like to remind the staff, if they are answering on behalf of the minister, that they identify themselves each time they speak because we are being recorded by Hansard.

Without any further ado, Mr. Minister, if you would introduce your staff and your estimates.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

To my right is Terry McCarthy, recently promoted from highway design to assistant deputy minister after the retirement of John O'Reilly. To the back right here we have Max Hussey, director of MRD, motor registration division; Ramona Cole, director of administration and financial management. Right behind me with the suntan is Harold Stone, from Hawaii, ADM responsible for tendering and many, many other functions in the department, central purchasing, government purchasing. To my far left over there is George Greenland, ADM responsible for the works side of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, and yours truly.

Can I continue?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I may not take the full fifteen minutes allotted to give an introduction to the department, but I'll take some of the time. I'll just start with my opening remarks. I will soon have my first year anniversary, in a couple of weeks time, as Minister of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. I was appointed just after last May.

Being new to the department - not only new in that it was the first time being minister, but new to that side of government services - it was a department in which I had no prior experience, not a great deal of knowledge about the department, so I made an effort, when I got into the department, to work with the staff of the department and spend a lot of time listening, too, because it is a very, very large department.

A few years ago we had the two, the Department of Public Works and the Department of Transportation, all rolled into the one department, and I tell you, with the number of employees, approximately 2,000 employees, about $250 million budget, and constitutes about 27 per cent of all government operations in that particular department, when I go down through the list of what the department is responsible for, you'll have some idea. It encompasses a whole area that was certainly foreign to me prior to being minister of the department.

I would think that over the past year the staff have had great difficulty, nevertheless they have taught me a lot about the department. It hasn't been easy for the staff to do that, but I have some patience and I listen quite extensively.

I feel now today that this department, being such a large department, is very, very important to the service of Newfoundland in many, many different areas. We start off, for argument sake, with the works side of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation where we're responsible for some 660 buildings across the Province, not only in the construction of new buildings but the maintenance and the operational, on a day to day basis, of that side of the department.

With the economic conditions and the financial restraints placed on the department as a whole, and in particular on that side of the department, we have to try to maintain the necessary components that we're responsible for in building, maintenance and services to the people with less dollars and I guess that's a responsibility placed on all departments in government. I'd like to say in the same tone from the Department of Works, Services and Transportation and the work side of it, that we are taking a lead in government as a department in managing the affairs of both sides of the department with less monies and providing - I'll boast for the department - providing more services for the people and a better quality of service. That's been proven over the last year, a better quality of service in the work side and in the transportation side.

One of the major things that transportation was in the process of doing when I got the job as minister was reorganization of the maintenance, winter maintenance and summer maintenance programs of the depots right across the Province. There was a lot of fear naturally among the people, not only within the department but outside the department, that there was going to be a problem. Naturally when you make changes in the area of any service that you're giving to the people there's always a concern that there's going to be less service. Naturally people are expected to be like that but given a fair opportunity presented over time you'll iron out the nuts and bolts of it and the growing pains. We proved over this winter that the reorganization in the transportation side has been proven to be very successful.

I met Terry and - Lou, the deputy minister is not here this morning as was my indication - we met with a lot of groups of people and listened to their concerns. That's the one thing that I've tried to bring into the department that it be an open department and whenever there's a concern by anybody, any group, any individual or any group of people, for whatever reason, we're to listen, get their ideas and see if can come to a solution that's satisfactory to both. We took that in the reorganization of the transportation side and we continually met with groups of people, town councils on a one and one basis sometimes and on a group basis at other times but it's certainly proven to be beneficial for both sides. We got an understanding from where they were coming from and they understood more, from a one on one explanation, of what we were doing.

The deputy minister said to me about two weeks ago before he went on vacation that he's been with the department - this is the second time around, the number of years in this department but it's the first time in the years that he's been working with the Department of Works, Services and Transportation that he's received letters of thank you and appreciation for the difference and the change in the working of the winter maintenance right across the Province. I've got the letters, I've got copies of numerous letters. The reason for this is, number one; the reorganization worked, secondly; the manner in which we were willing to sit down and listen to the people. To let the people have an input into the services, an open door policy and willing to listen and to work with people was a second part of that, making it work, and appreciation was shown by the general public.

I always took the way in thinking that you can't please all the people all the time and that's natural but if you do the best job you can and work with the people, for the most part people will appreciate and understand, knowing that all the answers can't be yes at all times. So they also did quite a bit of reorganization in the work side of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation in bringing the responsibilities of management together and trying to lessen the management operations in the work side of it as well as in the transportation side. We're giving a greater responsibility to the front line people. People who are out there actually doing the work, giving them greater responsibility and greater accountability and that's proven to be a success.

We've made some major changes also in improvements in Mr. Hussey's responsibilities, Max's responsibilities in the motor registration division. One of the things that I'm very proud of is the photo license that we recently approved and was brought in by government. That's going to be beneficial to all sectors of the population. You've got an identification, you've got a license in your pocket and you've got a picture on it which gives a positive identification of that individual. It is not only beneficial in the operation of a vehicle or vehicles, but in travelling, for the travelling public, in banking and in other things and in spending commercially. Travelling outside Canada one of the greatest difficulties you have is to try to get some financial assistance.

Walking into an area now if you are on vacation or whatever to do business, you have the identification necessary on one's person. I think it is beneficial. I think everybody is going to be quite excited when that comes into being. That is supposed to start in January of 19(inaudible)?

AN HON. MEMBER: Starts December 1 (inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: December 1, and be instituted over a three-year period as your licence becomes renewable. When your licence becomes renewable starting December 1, I think it will take about three years to bring that in. What other changes, Max, in your department?

MR. HUSSEY: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Oh yes. That was the second important one. Probably more important than the photo driver's licence if you want to put them on an equal level.

The new rules that we brought in in the impaired driving regulations. We brought in a regulation now that where you come up on a roadside test and if you have .05 per cent you will lose your licence for a twenty-four hour period and have to pay a $100 fine for a reinstatement. If you lose your licence in that manner three times in a two-year period you would lose your licence for a two-month period.

I've been quite heavy out in my own District with that, because people say: Heavens, you can't go to a wedding, you can't go anywhere and have a drink, one or two or three drinks, whatever. I said: That is quite correct - if you drive. You can drink as much as you want if you don't use your vehicle. You can drink a barrel if you want to. We are not saying you can't drink. What we are saying to the people of this Province is that you cannot drink and drive.

There is another component in that. There is going to be an education program in it, there is going to be a strategic....

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Do you want to explain that one?

MR. HUSSEY: This program is basically a screening criteria to determine if a person is alcohol dependent. If they've been suspended several times then this test would come into play and eventually the person would be subject to a rehabilitation process.

MR. EFFORD: Four departments work together on this. The Departments of Health, Justice, Education and Works, Services and Transportation. We feel very confident that over the long term this is going to prove very beneficial to highway safety and the drinking and driving problem. Twenty fatalities last year caused through drinking related accidents - and that is only the fatalities. When I say "only" I don't mean to place any less emphasis on it. The number of accidents that are caused through drinking, is a very serious matter. I think the younger people of the day are willing to take this on and be cooperative more so than the different age brackets, the older people. Because I'm very impressed with the youth of our Province.

I know in my own area over Christmas there is a high celebration, and one of the things I noted last year, Boxing Day is a day which means you usually travel around. I witnessed a group of young people doing the same thing on Boxing Day, going on what they call serenading with a designated driver. That shows you now the responsibility of the youth of our Province. I think this now is going to improve it that much more, and it is going to be a program working with the youth in the schools. We've got lots of input from the young people in the Province and I think it is just going to be a fantastic improvement. There will be very little negative. As the department said, and as I've said publicly, we don't care about the negative feeling of the people. This is something that must be done.

I don't want to use up any more time. I can go on for hours because of the size of the department. I will just quickly give you some of the things that we are responsible for. Highway construction, public tendering, government mail services, government purchasing, the ferry system around the Province, the provincial airstrips, air services, motor registration division. Am I missing anything? Building maintenance, building construction. The department has 660 buildings, 221 leases, right across the Island, and on and on the list goes. You can see the size of the department and the time and the demand that it puts on individuals working within that department to be able to properly function and work.

As I have said, we are working with less money; we are working on improving the operations and bringing it together, lessening managements' responsibilities and giving greater responsibilities to the front line people. I want to say in closing that I am very proud of the department, the whole department, from the top right down for the manner in which the department is working and continuing under the difficult conditions of dealing with the needs of people with the amounts of money that are available, and I think the strain and the pressure under which they are operating on a daily basis, when you walk through the department you can feel that the enthusiasm and the morale are at a good level, but I would like to see it higher in the department, even though it is at an extremely good level under the conditions that people are working with so I think that over time, all that will be improved greatly and once we improve that, then the service to the people and the people themselves will benefit outside from it.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, I fully concur with some of the things that your department has done and I can assure you that there are very positive things especially with the drinking and driving aspect of that, and I think you are 100 per cent right when you refer to the schools, because it is hard to teach old dogs new tricks. At one time it was an acceptable thing that you dropped into a hotel and had a drink and then get aboard your car and drove home. That is not acceptable any more, and I think the only place to change it, and the place to start, is in the schools, and somewhere we will reach a point where everybody will understand that it is not acceptable and it will look after itself hopefully, but there are certainly some good rules and regulations that you have brought forward there. The only thing that concerns me with the auto licensing and I think that is now increased; did you say to three years or five years?

MR. EFFORD: No, the old term was three years; the new one will be five -

MR. FITZGERALD: The new one will be five.

MR. EFFORD: - but it will take three years before everybody will be able to avail of the photo licence. Overall it will be five years.

MR. FITZGERALD: The only thing that concerns me with that and has been a concern of mine for some time is the insurance part of it, the automobile insurance part of it. At one time, at least people would have to go out and purchase automobile insurance and even though it is compulsory, at least once every three years they will be purchasing a policy; most people are responsible in purchasing it every year, but it has always been a problem of mine where people went out and bought automobile insurance and brought forward a policy number before they had their licences renewed, it was acceptable to go to registration and after that, many, many times, those insurance policies were dropped and no follow-up by Motor Registration and people were allowed to drive without proper insurance on the vehicle, and this is something that I think should be better correlated between insurance companies and Motor Registration. I don't know how we can do it but I know at one time it was a situation, especially with a younger driver, and I stand to be corrected, but if you cancelled your insurance somebody would come and take the license plates off your car and you would have to park it.

I don't think that happens any more and after being an insurance salesman myself for seventeen years, it always annoyed me, and you could always see what was happening; and it was never a situation that seemed to be resolved but it seems like the insurance companies never had a problem with giving driver abstracts, like getting in touch with Motor Registration and getting a printout of what drivers' activities were, and I am wondering if there can be a more passing of information between insurance companies and the Department of Motor Registration in order to solve that problem because it is a big problem; there is a lot of people out there today who are driving without insurance.

MR. EFFORD: One of the things we have been looking at, and I had an opportunity to speak on a couple of occasions with the officials of the department that raises concern with all of us, but I think what we are going to be doing in the near future - and I don't see any reason as you pointed out, why it can't be done, especially with the computer network systems that we have today in the process, it makes it very easy to be able to communicate and have information passed along, but we have a concern about that also and will be working with insurance companies to see if we cannot set up a mechanism where, if there is a cancellation of an insurance, the information is passed along, but it is a legitimate concern.

MR. FITZGERALD: I noticed here also that in the 1994 Budget government will be accelerating the transfer of local roads being maintained by the department to the jurisdiction of the relevant municipality.

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: I wonder if you could expand on that, please?

MR. EFFORD: Well it is very simple. One of the problems we are having now right across the island is we are duplicating, the municipalities, the Department of Works, Services and Transportation is criss-crossing - something like the school bus system in the Education Division. We are responsible for in excess of 9,000 kilometers of road. Municipalities are also doing roads in the same area. So what we are trying to do is, any roads that we are doing that are in the municipalities we are satisfied to bring those roads up to a standard that is satisfactory, just not bulldoze people under, we will go in and meet with the councils and get an agreement, we will either pass the money over to the municipality to allow them to do it or we will do the roads up to an acceptable standard and then pass that responsibility over for future maintenance. We will just give up all responsibility for that road in the future. It will then become the responsibility of the municipality. Keeping in mind once the road is upgraded and paved you should get a fifteen to twenty year life out of that road.

A lot of municipalities are finding this more and more acceptable. We have had requests, in fact, just yesterday I had a letter from a community which was passed on to my assistant deputy minister this morning requesting that we do the road up and they will take it over. We have not even yet approached this particular community. So the word is getting out, but it is just a matter of trying to separate and not duplicating, crossing over the same areas. I will give you an example. The Town Council of Clarke's Beach where I am from - we do the main road and we go right in through the community of Clarke's Beach. They have now come pretty close to an agreement - we will still continue doing the main road, but they will take over what is within the Town of Clarke's Beach.

MR. FITZGERALD: You are talking about Local Service Districts as well?

MR. EFFORD: No, because the Local Service Districts do not have the capabilities to maintain the roads. They do not have any means of maintenance winter or summer. Just municipalities where they have the equipment. This will not be forced upon anyone this is going to be done in agreement. So in other words where a municipality agrees and they have the means of tendering or the equipment to do their own work.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. That was a concern of mine because I know that several local service districts and community councils even today cannot afford to look after the local road -

MR. EFFORD: Exactly.

MR. FITZGERALD: - with the cutback in funding for the roads that we have seen in the past number of years.

Also, it mentions there planning funds of $300,000 are provided for a proposed archives, museum, art gallery, to recognize the 500th. Anniversary of John Cabot's landing. How far advanced is that? If there's going to be a proposed archives or museum, is there any site or location where that might take place?

MR. EFFORD: We are in the process now of awarding that contract to a firm whereby all the programming and planning will be put in place, and the government will make a decision. We're approaching the federal government and doing that, so that will be done, I would say, within several days.

MR. FITZGERALD: Appointing a committee?

MR. EFFORD: No, no, an engineering firm.

MR. FITZGERALD: So has the site been selected?

MR. EFFORD: No, not as yet. That's one of the things that will be looked at.

MR. FITZGERALD: So that will be something that will be done by the 500th. Anniversary Committee, or will it be done by your department?

MR. EFFORD: Oh, the 500th. Anniversary Committee will play the lead role in selecting. We do everything in co-operation. Nothing is forced upon anybody, except the Opposition.

MR. FITZGERALD: Contracting out, Mr. Minister, I have been hearing all kinds of rumours that your department is looking at contracting out snow clearing in the winter time, and contracting out the painting of lines, and directional lines and whatever on highways. Is there any truth to those rumours?

MR. EFFORD: One of the things that we always do, we're always open to new ideas. We don't like to stop, because once you stop it starts falling behind, so in any business or any operation you always like to be at least on the doorstep of moving ahead and improving the operations and the service to people. We've always contracted out winter maintenance, snow ploughing and snow clearing in communities right across the Island. We do not have enough equipment, so where it is necessary, where we don't have the equipment to do certain areas right across the Province, we contract out to local contractors, local companies. I think that's good. It gives local companies an opportunity to get work in the winter months when otherwise their equipment would be normally tied up, so this is not something new. This is an ongoing process with the department, long before I got there, and I hope we will improve it in the future.

As far as the line painting on the highway, one of the problems that we've got in Newfoundland is the weather. You can only paint lines on nice, warm days. You can't paint them when it's cold, and you certainly can't paint them when it's damp and raining.

We got accused last year of not painting the lines on the roads, and it's a matter of safety. I had numerous calls from all over the Province. In fact in one area in Labrador, and my friend from Eagle River can witness that, there was a very serious accident, and loss of life. It was foggy, and the lines... Those things happen, so what we want to do this year is ensure that we're going to be able to get the lines done all over the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. We've got three machines now, and we're going to look at contracting one of those machines out to compare it with the success of the department's operation to privately being operated.

It's just a matter of looking at how we can best do the work, and when I started off I talked about providing the service for the people with less money, and the department has a lesser budget than it did years ago, and the money is not available. The needs are greater, but we have less money to operate with those needs, so we've got to try to be able to do that in an efficient manner and provide service to the people, because the one thing, if you get out of bed in the morning and your road is not ploughed, the first thing you do is call up and belabor the person in that department, and we're getting that on a day-to-day basis.

I thought when I was in social services I was totally consumed by paper work and phone calls with people's concerns, but since I've gone to this department it is just absolutely unbelievable, but we are trying to provide service and that may be contracting out some of the work. If it works out it will be more. If it doesn't, we'll go back and assume responsibility.

MR. FITZGERALD: You're not looking at contracting out the whole aspect of snow clearing in Newfoundland?

MR. EFFORD: We're looking at everything.

MR. FITZGERALD: So you may be looking at it? Okay.

You also mentioned the closing down of some of the depots -

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: - over the past number of months. If I recall correctly, there have been very few which have been closed down where you can really judge to see if it's been effective because most of those depots have maintained their status over the winter months and there is a situation where you would only close them down as of the end of May, I think it was, and be closed down until September or October. It is kind of early to prejudge how successful that program has been.

MR. EFFORD: I don't mean to interrupt you but it is not early to prejudge. When I gave my opening remarks I gave you an example - and I can provide copies of the letters that we've got from people from all areas of the Province expressing appreciation for the improvement in services for our winter maintenance program and snow clearing. One of the reasons for that is the change in the mode of operation and closing depots.

You have to remember, back when Newfoundland joined Confederation we didn't have a very good network of roads across this Province, so you needed a lot of depots in all areas of the Province. That was back in 1949, and on into the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s. We are now into the 1990s. If you look at the trunk roads and the Trans-Canada across this Province, we haven't got too bad a system compared to the rest of Atlantic Canada. We are very proud of the roads. You don't need the same number of depots that you did back twenty, twenty-five, thirty years ago. The department worked on this, the team of people put together within the department. Again, I can't take credit for this, because this was done before I joined the department, but it proved to be very successful. I just inherited the success of that. I can boast a little bit about that.

On the serious side it did work. You can have the depots in some areas open just to store the equipment. You don't need management and staff there in those particular areas. We closed those thirty or thirty-five - thirty-five, but thirty seasonally and five permanently. Is that correct?

AN HON. MEMBER: Five permanently and twenty-two.

MR. EFFORD: Twenty-two, okay. Again, we are going to be looking at this, year after year. We are not going to stop. As I said we can't stop. You have to keep looking and hopefully to improve. This winter proved to be a success.

MR. FITZGERALD: So there were five closed down -

MR. EFFORD: Permanently.

MR. FITZGERALD: - immediately after the announcement was made.

MR. EFFORD: Five closed permanently, will not open again, but the twenty-nine -

MR. FITZGERALD: Those were closed down when the announcement was made?

MR. EFFORD: Oh yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. The other twenty-two -

MR. EFFORD: Twenty-nine.

MR. FITZGERALD: Twenty-nine were operating over the winter months. They will now go in and their status will change during the summer period.

MR. EFFORD: Exactly.

MR. FITZGERALD: Then start over again next winter.

MR. EFFORD: That is right. Closing down a depot doesn't necessarily mean it is out of full operation. You can store things, you can have a salt shed there on that particular piece of property, or you can have the equipment, but it doesn't have to be managed. You don't need managers in those. I mean, the truck driver knows very well that he has to get out in the morning at 4:00 or 5:00 and take over the truck. He doesn't need to be told. You don't need someone there in four or five different levels of management. What they have done is they've reduced the numbers of management and given a greater responsibility and accountability to the people who are actually doing the work.

MR. FITZGERALD: There were very few people laid off, if I recall, in the closing down of those depots. Most of the people were transferred to other depots. Is it a situation that the equipment will still be stored in the depots that they normally worked, or will they be expected to take them back to the new depot and be there at a certain time and leave at a certain time? If it is I fail to see where the great savings are.

MR. EFFORD: No. Depending on the area and the location of the depot equipment will be stored, but don't get the idea that if you close down one in Bay Roberts and twenty miles away down in Harbour Grace you have to travel that distance and take that piece of equipment. Equipment will be kept on site in a lot of areas close to the operation of work. We are not going to have a situation where people will have to drive three or four or five hours a day to and from, and only get one or two hours of production. I have greater confidence in the people who are responsible for setting up this not to lose sight of that. That was something that people said is happening, but it is not actually happening.

MR. FITZGERALD: That was the concern that I had. I know in my particular area the Amherst Cove depot is closed down. It is a fair drive over to the other depot that has been recognized. I think a lot of people would be happy to hear that, because that way they wouldn't have the longer drive in the morning and they wouldn't have the longer drive back to their depot and losing valuable time.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Noel.

MR. NOEL: No questions, thank you.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Noel.

MR. NOEL: I'll let the minister off with that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: I'd like to ask the minister about the current topic of the routing of the new four-lane divided Trans-Canada Highway in Pasadena.

MR. EFFORD: Surprise, surprise.

MS. VERGE: The minister recently received from the Pasadena Town Council a copy of a motion passed by the council, newly elected. The motion contains a number of recitals setting out the background of the question of the routing of the new superhighway and then a resolution of the council that the council affirm its support of a 1990 motion that the council approves in principle the southern bypass route.

The history that's been summarized in the recitals includes mention of the fact that there were three independent consulting engineering studies done about the route of the new four-lane divided highway, studies that were done from 1983 to October, 1989, studies which all recommended some variation of the southern bypass as the route of choice. A mention of the fact that the Town of Pasadena and the Department of Works, Services and Transportation -that would be after the change of government in 1989 - agreed in 1990 that the southern bypass route would be used in the reconstruction of the Pasadena section of the Trans-Canada; mention of the fact that the Town of Pasadena and the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, by way of a series of correspondence in early 1990, concluded an agreement concerning certain matters associated with the construction of the southern bypass route; next, mention of the fact that the southern bypass route was incorporated in the Pasadena's ten year municipal plan, 1989-1998, on December 17, 1990.

The Pasadena municipal plan was approved by the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs on July 23, 1991, after consultation with all relevant departments and agencies of the Wells Government, and published in the Newfoundland Gazette on August 2, 1991. Then it stated that the Pasadena municipal plan has formed the basis for long range decision making by the municipality and town residents. So why would the present minister, last fall, out of the blue, propose a route that none of the studies had even cited as an option or a possibility when his own government had approved the southern bypass route just three, four years ago? What has changed? The terrain is the same, the funding agreement with the federal government is the same. What has changed in the last three or four years that would warrant upsetting a decision of the same government?

MR. EFFORD: A very quick answer, the minister.

MS. VERGE: Okay, that's what I thought. That's the only obvious change. What studies has the minister done to support his proposal for a John Efford memorial trench along the transmission line in Pasadena?

MR. EFFORD: Well at least I keep up with Haig Young, he had a trench.

MS. VERGE: What studies has the minister done?

MR. EFFORD: Common sense.

MS. VERGE: Common sense, okay. Where did the minister study highway design and -

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MS. VERGE: Where did the minister study highway design and engineering? What are the ministers credentials in highway design?

MR. EFFORD: In common sense I can put my credentials up against anybody in this government or anybody in this House of Assembly.

MS. VERGE: Okay. Did the minister take the time to apply his common sense by sketching out a plan of his proposed transmission line route?

MR. EFFORD: You look on both sides of me, on my right and on my left and behind me and many more people who are not here this morning, and as I said, my deputy minister is away on vacation, a long, deserved vacation I might add. I never did anything in my life without the full consultation of the people working around me, and when I said I used common sense, I did use common sense, I sought the advice of officials of my department, in long, detailed discussions; they put a lot of thought and planning in this and based together, with all of our abilities - I am not an engineer, I never studied to be an engineer but I always placed myself in the position to listen to advice and to learn and to use a great deal of common sense in making decisions.

All too often decisions are made based on politics, emotion, irrational decisions and not for all the right reasons, so I have to look at all of those decisions. I have to look at the concerns of the people and how it will affect the people in that particular area. I have looked long and hard; I have listened to the people of Pasadena and they have very valid concerns. I am not taking an arrogant position that the people of Pasadena should not be listened to; I have met with them, I have met with the council, I have met with individuals, I read all the letters, I have returned answers to a lot of the letters, in fact most of them. We have looked long and hard at this and we have read the studies, the previous studies, and the officials of my department, the Director of Highway Designs sitting next to me has been an advisor to me as minister, but I take full responsibility for the decisions that have been made to date and the decisions that will be made in the future. I am not giving that responsibility or putting it off on anybody else, I am the minister, I am responsible.

MS. VERGE: Chair, one glaring aspect of the minister's proposed design is that most people think it is quite the opposite of a common sense design -

MR. EFFORD: I wouldn't expect anything else from you.

MS. VERGE: - submerging the new four-lane divided highway through the middle of Pasadena along a fairly lengthy stretch -

MR. EFFORD: Where is the highway now?

MS. VERGE: - below a level community street where -

MR. EFFORD: It is going through Pasadena.

MS. VERGE: - at it's deepest point it would be eighteen feet below ground level. Now, there is nothing similar in our Province.

MR. EFFORD: That's exaggeration.

MS. VERGE: In the heart of Montreal the (?) Boulevard is submerged and because of the congestion of that urban centre there might have been a requirement to build that major thoroughfare in that way, but we are talking about the Humber Valley in Newfoundland; we are talking about a small, attractive town with a population of 3,500. How does it make common sense to propose putting a wide, modern highway, eighteen feet below ground level in Pasadena, Newfoundland?

MR. EFFORD: The MHA for Humber East and Pasadena is putting a lot of her own words, her own personal words into this and trying to dress it up and to emotionalize and to exaggerate exactly what is going to take place in Pasadena.

On the one hand you said all sorts of things in the House of Assembly the other day in Question Period, tunnel vision and ditching and everything else; now, this morning you say it is going to be a modern, four-lane highway, and you are more correct this morning than you have been at any time in expressing it in the past. It is going to be a modern, four-lane highway going by the transmission line through Pasadena.

With all of the concerns of the people of Pasadena fully in mind, each and every shovel or piece of dirt is going to be removed, replaced and done, the design, the filling, the construction, the landscaping, the hydroseeding, the buffer zones, the noise potential, every consideration is going to be taken in the construction of that section of road by the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, from the minister's office right down, and at no time will any concern of any individual be ignored in the construction of that new, modern, beautifully constructed highway going through Pasadena.

I think, as did the people who had concerns last year when we re-organized the winter maintenance, a lot of people were afraid. They called me, we met with them, they said: We are not going to get our snow clearing, we are going to be stuck here all winter. I think when this road is built that the people of Pasadena may build a....

MS. VERGE: A shrine for (inaudible)?

MR. EFFORD: A shrine for John Efford out in Pasadena.

MS. VERGE: Chair, what studies has the minister done about contending with snow and water problems with an eighteen-foot deep pit off a highway in Pasadena? Pasadena, for those who may not know, is a flat community on a large lake. Pasadena gets a lot of snow in the winter.

MR. EFFORD: As does all Newfoundland.

MS. VERGE: Pasadena gets more than the East Coast. The Humber Valley gets a bit more snow than the East Coast.

MR. EFFORD: I'm glad to say that, yes.

MS. VERGE: How does the minister propose to contend with snow and water in this new highway, in a trench?

MR. EFFORD: You see, you don't show much confidence in the Department of Works, Services and Transportation.

MS. VERGE: That is because I don't have much.

MR. EFFORD: You were there for a long period of time. You didn't change that. You should have improved that when you were there. You were in government up until 1989. Thank God it is over now. We can bring some common sense and reality back to the people, and confidence to the people of the Province. Nevertheless, you leave the impression that there is going to be an eighteen-foot trench right through Pasadena. I mean, that is wrong.

MS. VERGE: That is at its deepest point.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. Time is up.

Mr. Dumaresque.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Minister, a lot of people in this Province do not know it, but I certainly believe, that probably one of the central elements of building this Province is the Northern Gulf Route or the Trans-Labrador Highway. A lot of people in this Province do not realize that this project is the only project in eastern Canada - I submit, and it is only because I don't have the thorough knowledge of all of Canada - but it is certainly I would submit the only economic development project in eastern Canada that government could put money into today that will have substantial, significant returns in terms of job creation, in tourism, forestry, mining, general service sector, fishery. It is the one essential element of transportation in this Province that we don't have in the largest part of this Province. Certainly we have campaigned on the fact that it is a number one priority of the Province.

I would like to know, and I'm sure all the people of Labrador would like to know, what has happened since you became minister on this critically important issue. In particular, is there now a negotiating team in place to look at a deal? Has any preliminary work been done on the surveying of that particular highway? I have talked publicly just recently, I guess, after the TAGS, the new fisheries program was announced, about the fact that many people in Labrador could be involved in cutting the right of way for this particular highway across Labrador. It would be bringing the people in at the bottom level and building this Province like no other project in Labrador could. Would you be able to tell me what progress you've been able to make? Maybe if you could, give us your opinion on that last aspect of the question.

MR. EFFORD: Yes. I agree with everything that you've said about the need and the importance of the Northern Gulf Route, known to us originally as the Trans-Labrador Highway. As you know, and most people know, an extensive amount of study went into the building of that highway. A report has been publicly released. The option preferred by government is the road right across connecting the coastal communities. I think it was option one in the study.

I, personally, as minister of the department, took the position from the outset that I am in total support of building the Northern Gulf Route. I think that the people of Labrador long deserve that highway network that we in the rest of Canada enjoy.

Some people publicly made a comment, imagine building a highway at that cost for 30,000 people in Labrador. My position was, whether there were 300, whether there were 3,000 or whether there were 3 million, it doesn't make a difference; the needs of people should be equal right across this country, and that's the basis on which I operate.

As you already know, there was no funding provided for the Trans-Labrador Highway in this year's maintenance program. I was successful in getting $4.5 million from the federal government to do work this year. It's going to take another $80 million to complete that section from Goose to Churchill - another $80 million. It's going to take approximately $500 million to complete the highway right across Labrador, and we don't think that's unrealistic. I think that's a reasonable amount of money.

We have a team being put in place which constitutes the Department of Works, Services and Transportation people and Intergovernmental Affairs, to negotiate all the leading negotiations on that particular part of the new network, and try to obtain the $80 million from the federal people.

We just recently gave a full documentation in the last three days to the Premier, because he personally met with the Prime Minister. In fact, if I'm correct, he's meeting with the Prime Minister this week, and that's one of the things which he's talking to the Prime Minister about. We brought him up to date on all of the things that have taken place, and he is right up to date, so he can present that information to the Prime Minister, because the Prime Minister is very keen and very interested in the Northern Gulf Route not only for the concerns of the people in Labrador and the benefits economically and socially for the people in Labrador, but the people who travel right up through the New England States, and the circle route down through Labrador and St. Anthony and Newfoundland back through. I would love to be minister of the department and I could make that announcement, because I think it's going to be one of the greatest benefits to the whole of Newfoundland and Labrador, the people of the Province, for tourism, for economic development, and to show that we are fair to all people right across this country.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I don't want to interrupt you, Mr. Minister, but when you mention that you're trying to get the $80 million now to do up the road from Churchill to Goose Bay, that's a big concern to the people on the Coast of Labrador, and I tell you why. We now have, I think, about seven communities that are not connected by road from Norman Bay to Red Bay, and it would probably take about $50 million to put a first-class dirt road, gravel road, to those communities. It would offset about 80 per cent of the Marine Atlantic freight subsidy to that area and obviously, if I am reading you right, if we get an agreement of $80 million to do the road from Churchill to Goose then these people on the coast are going to have to wait another five years before we even start negotiating for the construction of a road down that way, and that will be quite unacceptable to people in that area.

MR. EFFORD: You're jumping to conclusions, and that's not correct. What I said was that the Premier is meeting the Prime Minister on the issue you're talking about, $500 million to construct that whole road. What I said was that I've been meeting this past number of months with the federal minister and talking, communicating back and forth with the federal minister, on the present highway, because we do have a lot of tractor trailers coming in there. I was lucky to get $4.5 million this year - well, I got $10 million, which is $20 million cost-shared by the Province.

We put $4.5 million down there this year, more next year and for the next five years but that was on a 50/50 cost-shared program. What we're asking for is a better cost-sharing and money to keep on continuing that but the other meetings that we're holding separate from that, is to construct highways in the communities and right across Labrador and that's where the Premier is meeting personally with the Prime Minister on that very issue.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Yes, well -

MR. EFFORD: He's not meeting on the $80 million.

MR. DUMARESQUE: No, well as I said to you, people are not going to be very happy knowing that there's a negotiation going on for $80 million when obviously $130 million could complete the road from Pinware or Red Bay to Charlottetown and the road from Goose Bay to Churchill.

MR. EFFORD: Well hold on now, Danny, that's not fair. What I said was - and probably I didn't express it in the manner in which to be clear or probably I expressed it wrong I should say. What I said was that it requires $80 million to complete that section of road and that's ongoing. I mean the section of road is being used by tractor trailers, being used by traffic so we have a lot of problems with wash-outs, with bridges and different things on that section of road so we have to keep a flow of money coming to that. We just can't stop that and go and do something else. What we want to do is do that and at the same time find monies to do the section to connect those four communities.

You're talking about the $50 million but get the $500 million agreement signed on the Northern Gulf Route and then we'll be able to run the highway right across but you know as I know, you can't do one in isolation of the other. It's got to be an ongoing discussion on the whole issue. I'm not going to say we're going to get $5, $10, $15 or $20 million to do the Churchill to Goose and forget everything else, that's only a part of it, as we are doing the trunk roads, the Trans-Canada and the community roads in the Province. One is not done in isolation, it's all done on an ongoing basis.

So I want to send a message to the people of Labrador - and I thought I had already done that on the public announcement that I made - that I am in total support of doing what should have been done, what should be done and it will be done for the people of Labrador, providing a highway network system equal to anywhere else that they deserve. Those coastal communities, yes they deserve it.

MR. DUMARESQUE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I wasn't given a particular time -

MR. CHAIRMAN: About ten minutes on this round.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Ten minutes. I was not given ten minutes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Alright, you started at 9:47, it's now 9:58.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I didn't see it at the time but obviously -

MR. CHAIRMAN: I keep very close check on the time.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I'd appreciate it if you'd give me a bit of notice when I get to that because I had another question on that very important issue.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll try and accommodate you later on, thank you. Mr. Manning.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to apologize for being somewhat late this morning coming in.

I'd like to ask the minister a couple of questions in my ten minute slot. I'm not sure, maybe in the half hour I missed this morning, some of these questions were answered.

AN HON. MEMBER: You slept in did you? You slept in?

MR. MANNING: No, I was out in my district facing some of the problems that are out there.

MR. EFFORD: At 8 o'clock in the morning?

MR. MANNING: At 7 o'clock in the morning, sorry about that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Time doesn't bother this member. One question I'd like to ask you is about the transfer of local roads from the jurisdiction of the department to the municipalities. When is this plan to take place? Is there a time allotted that a municipality will have to respond in order to -

MR. EFFORD: What local roads are you referring to, the roads in municipalities?

MR. MANNING: Yes, the roads in municipalities. When is this supposed to have started or has it started already? Is there a time on when the municipality has to respond to -

MR. EFFORD: In Liberal districts there's no time but in Tory districts we're going to do it yesterday.

MS. VERGE: That's the truth.

MR. EFFORD: That's the truth. That's been ongoing Fabian, with the department for quite some time. This is not just something new that has happened. The department has been negotiating with municipalities over a period of years. Wherever there is a duplication of services by the local transportation depot, and the municipality, in clearing or maintaining roads, what we are doing is meeting on a continuing basis with different municipalities. There is no one area designated where we say we are going to do this next week, next month, or tomorrow.

We will sit down with the municipalities, when sometimes requests are initiated by them, or sometimes initiated by the department, and if there is an agreement that can be reached by both parties we will do the road up to an acceptable standard and they will assume responsibility for maintenance after that. There is no time slot put out by the department saying we are going to accomplish this on such and such a date. It is an ongoing discussion with all municipalities.

MR. MANNING: For example, when the department reaches more or less a conclusion with the municipality that we are going to do a road, once that road is completed up to today's standard does the department wipe its hands totally clear of that road then? Are they completely clear of anything to do with that road, like snow clearing, everything?

MR. EFFORD: If the agreement is reached between the municipality and the department of a section of road within their municipality we will bring the road up to an acceptable standard, and that means pavement, to their standard, or we could pass a sum of money over to the municipality. Either way, whichever agreement is met then the responsibility for the total maintenance of that road in summer or winter, or whenever, becomes the responsibility of that municipality. That is the purpose of doing it, otherwise we would not do it.

MR. MANNING: So if we do a road and bring it up to standard the municipality must be willing to maintain it. Is that the understanding?

MR. EFFORD: Yes, that is right.

MR. MANNING: Another thing I am also concerned about, and it may not be so important to some people but in my district, especially with the fog this morning, is the yellow line. I have a couple of questions on that. When does the department start putting the yellow line on the highway anywhere in the Province and how many crews are on the road doing this particular job?

MR. EFFORD: We start in the Liberal districts first. The Port de Grave district is already done, by the way.

MR. MANNING: More power to you, I have no problem with that. When I become Minister of Works, Services and Transportation I will do the same thing in St. Mary's - The Capes.

MR. EFFORD: In answer to your question, you can only start painting the lines when weather permits, and I said earlier in answer to the Member for Bonavista it is very difficult in Newfoundland to do the painting because of weather condition. You cannot do it when the temperatures are cold. You cannot do it when it is foggy or damp. It has to be done on a year to year basis because of the amount of salt and sand that is put on the roads. We had two pieces of equipment last year and we now have a new piece of equipment so we now have three this year. If mother nature, the weather, works on our side we will get started immediately when the sun warms up. That is what we are waiting on. Everybody is in full flight ready to go.

MR. MANNING: Is there a schedule?

MR. EFFORD: I already told you that. I already answered that one.

MR. MANNING: Seriously, is there a schedule, like do they start on one side of the Province or are they more or less spread around somewhat?

MR. EFFORD: They are spread around pretty good, I think.

MR. MANNING: What's that?

MR. EFFORD: It is spread around the Province pretty good.

MR. MANNING: I do not know who was driving the truck, but last year in my area just as an example, there is a side road down to the community of Point Lance, I guess it is around fourteen kilometres but I stand to be corrected and the connecting road is what we call the Branch Road which runs between Branch and St. Bride's. The truck came out one day and put the line on the road between Branch and St. Bride's and passed the side road, there is a community, Point Lance, and two weeks after came back out just do this road, but you would think, that in the effort of saving money, they would do the Point Lance Road when they were out to do it or, is there a reason for that?

MR. EFFORD: Well, I can't answer that particular question and I doubt if anyone here this morning can answer that, because you have to remember the numbers of roads and byroads, but then I have the confidence in the people within the department that there had to be a reasoning as to why that was done.

MR. MANNING: That's what I asked, was there a reason? What I am saying is that we continually hear about the efforts of saving money and -

MR. EFFORD: We are providing a service within this department for all people right across this Province with greater responsibility put on the people with less money and improving the services, so much so, and you missed it earlier because you slept in - that we had thank you letter after thank you letter after thank you letter for the jobs and for the way in which we performed the winter maintenance program this winter; but that's improving. Improving service with less money and there has to be an underlying reason why they would go through a community, bypass one of the local roads, a side road. I suspect it was a good reason but if you require, we can certainly check that out but I would have the confidence that there is a good reason for it.

MR. MANNING: Yes. You keep striking on the fact that I slept in. As I said before, I did not sleep in but maybe you should send out to some of the depots in the Province because from the actions of some of them in the past year, a lot of them were sleeping in.

MR. EFFORD: Just hold on a second.

MR. MANNING: No. I would like to -

MR. EFFORD: If you have a problem with anybody in your particular area, where the people were not getting out and plowing the roads, you bring it to the attention of the Department but I am telling you -

MR. MANNING: I did bring it to the attention of the minister.

MR. EFFORD: On one occasion but there was a good explanation for that. But I tell you very clearly that the people of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation have placed the responsibility on the people who are operating the trucks and the plows, they are on the road at five o'clock in the morning weather permitting, they are not Gods, they cannot be out in all kinds of weather but weather permitting, if they can get out there and plow those roads at no risk to their lives, they are out there.

Now you have to remember we have 9,000 kilometres of road and what people want - if a particular truck is responsible, and I use the argument, twenty-five kilometres of road to plow on any given day, that truck can't be everywhere at the same time. It has to start at point A and finish at point B, and in the meantime when he leaves point A and gets half-way to point B, from point A, from where he has already come, Mother Nature could have another snowfall down or slush or whatever, so you can't keep the roads the same in winter as you do in summer, I mean, it's a different season but people do expect that.

MR. MANNING: No, I just said -

MR. EFFORD: But they don't sleep in.

MR. MANNING: Pardon?

MR. EFFORD: They do not sleep in.

MR. MANNING: Well, I called you one time the winter and have no problem in saying -

MR. EFFORD: That truck was on the road.

MR. MANNING: - the thing was dealt with -

MR. EFFORD: That truck was on the road but it wasn't there when you wanted it there.

MR. MANNING: Pardon?

MR. EFFORD: That truck was out on the road. It was not in the spot where people wanted it to be at that particular time.

MR. MANNING: No, but what I am saying is that I am responding to your -

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I am responding to your comments, that has nothing to do with the questions I asked. I just came back with a view of my own but I brought that to your attention the year, the past winter and it was dealt with and I told you I appreciated that, no problem; but what I am saying is that I was under the understand that the trucks had to leave the depot at four o'clock, right? That was my understanding at time, that the truck had to leave the depot at four o'clock and it was touching half-past-six and the truck hadn't left the depot at that time, and that was the concern that was brought forward and several people in my area I called and the message was passed on to you.

MR. EFFORD: As we said, everybody wants it all done at the same time.

MR. MANNING: Yes. Oh I understand -

MR. CHAIRMAN: I am sorry, the ten minutes are up.

MR. MANNING: Ten minutes are up already?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave?

MR. EFFORD: No leave.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Matthews.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I will get right into the use of my time because the Chairman is talk happy this morning and I appreciate him being that way actually, but I should say in a very non-partisan way or as to the greatest extent that that can be said, that I have always been impressed with the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation as being -

MS. VERGE: You don't even have any provincial roads in your District.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Well, I have to talk about something.

MR. EFFORD: She is impressed too.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. L. MATTHEWS: He has always been deemed to be a take-charge minister in any department he has had. In the year that I've seen him operate on a first-hand basis I can only confirm that the perception generally in the population about your capabilities and competency, sir, has been vindicated.

AN HON. MEMBER: All the roads in St. John's North are going to be paved.

MR. EFFORD: You got that right.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: The department that you are responsible for lends great potential in my view to carrying forward, I guess, the policy and principles that were outlined in the Throne Speech with respect to privatization initiatives and contracting out efforts and that sort of thing. I'm pleased to see some of the things you've done in streamlining in the rural areas, but I don't have a big affinity of what is happening in rural Newfoundland.

I want to ask you first if there is an ongoing discussion or consideration in your department to be looking at the contracting out for goods and services to the greatest extent possible in view of maximizing the scare dollars that we seem to have these days, in the interest not only of saving money but providing a better level of service to our Province and its people.

MR. EFFORD: Yes. We have been looking at it for quite some time now. I will start off with the government purchasing, central purchasing. We've been looking at improving the ways of bringing together the purchase of government products that they use, government commodities that we used on a day-to-day basis. We brought together a number of products over the past while which have substantially saved the government quite a deal of money by centralizing on the purchasing of products, but we don't see contracting that out to private enterprise. That is done more efficiently in-house.

We brought together I think it was eleven or twelve products and saved something like $1.7 million in bringing together the bulk purchasing of products and then distributing them out to the areas in which they want to be used. Efficiency, improvements in purchasing, and centralizing the purchasing of government are utmost on our minds. In fact, I've had several meetings with the executive over the last two or three months. Hopefully the next one in the near future is going to give me a list of more products, commodities, that are being used by government, municipalities, Crown corporations, school boards, hospitals, right across the Province, and have the centralized purchasing brought up to a greater level. There is no good rushing into it and just jumping in, as you would know with your experience in business. It is better to take it a step at a time and then add on until finally we reach a plateau where we will have it all streamlined and the best dollar maximum of savings can be realized.

We are always looking at privatization or contracting out. In some cases it works, in some cases it doesn't. It has been proven by the Works side of the department - engineering - we can do it less costly by doing it in-house in a lot of instances. It is not always to the best advantage to give anything outside.

MS. VERGE: Hydro is (inaudible) such an example.

MR. EFFORD: I will get to that later.

Anyhow, we are on a continuous basis looking out to providing the contracting out of services, and construction and building, wherever possible. Like I said, we have to be very careful that we don't do it for the sake of doing it, and not to the best advantage of the efficiency and financial savings, what we are trying to accomplish. It is something that is an ongoing discussion day after day.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you. On to another issue - the clock is ticking - the Outer Ring Road. I'm pleased to see that initiative has been approved and I presume the work will commence this spring.

MR. EFFORD: Tenders closed on one section of the Outer Ring Road the day before yesterday. The contract was awarded to Pyramid Construction here in St. John's, and that is that portion that was going to be started up around the Nagle's Hill area, in that portion.

The other contract will be let in the near future. We still have a couple of things to get out of the way - land, environmental things out on the Trans-Canada, where it joins with the Trans-Canada. That tender should be called in the very near future. The intent is to spend about $6 million this year in the construction of the Outer Ring Road.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: When is the projected completion date of that in the context of the funding that we have?

MR. EFFORD: 2002.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: 2002.

MR. EFFORD: We have the monies, as you all know, to do all of the work, but we get $50 million a year, $30 million for the Trans-Canada, $20 million for the trunk roads. One of the things we try to do is not do a whole lot of construction that can get out of control in any one particular area, so it can be properly managed and done in a correct manner, but the other thing is to try to keep the construction across the Province, so work will be done in different areas and the roads will all come to a completion pretty well all at the same time, the year 2001, 2002, 2003, the final date of this Roads for Rails Agreement to run out.

It gives jobs right across the Province, and it gives everybody the satisfaction that there's something being done in my area, except the Member for Humber East; she's never satisfied.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: No, she's half happy. I've chatted with her.

MR. EFFORD: She's happy?

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Half happy.

MR. EFFORD: Half happy.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Happy to be here. I never said she was happy with you.

She's briefed me on the situation in Pasadena, and I'm almost convinced, John, and I'm really going to have to talk to you this afternoon.

MR. EFFORD: You're sitting too close; it rubs off.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: On to another issue of some currency with respect to the Pippy Park area, the Pippy Park Commission, there's been a group organized of land owners in that area, and I haven't, I must confess, had a chance to fully study the document that they presented to you, but in a general sense, because I'm not totally familiar with all of the concerns, are there some legitimate concerns in that document? I wouldn't ask you to respond to them, but in the context that if your answer is yes, there are legitimate concerns, do you think that we can work them out through the Pippy Park Commission, or are there some problems even with the operation of the commission?

MR. EFFORD: Well, you've got to remember that the Pippy Park Commission is responsible for the overall operation. I am the minister responsible for the Pippy Park Commission. The one thing that I disagree with the approach that this group of people, the residents of Pippy Park, took, they didn't go and sit down first of all and talk with the commission. Had they done that and not reached an understanding, they could have then come to my office; but they chose to go the public route first before I had a meeting with the commission first, or myself second.

Yes, they've got legitimate concerns. I understand the residents of Pippy Park, the people who live in the particular area, of the concerns they have. Secondly, I think yes, there are going to be some things worked out to the satisfaction of both parties.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: I am aware of some of their concerns, of course, because a small section of the area is in my district, and I've talked to the residents and campaigned there, and have seen first hand and have heard of them. Would it be fair to say that they've never attempted or haven't, over the years, tried to sit down with the Pippy Park Commission? I can't envisage that they wouldn't have done that.

MR. EFFORD: Well, I was called last week when they had the press conference. I was called 8:30 a.m. last Wednesday to be in a press conference at 10:00 a.m. and, as you know, we had a caucus meeting at 10:00 a.m. I said to the gentleman who called me: It's very unfair to approach me in that manner. Why didn't you at least give me twenty-four hours notice?

When I found out, he didn't even write me or contact me. He went over my head and contacted my boss to say to me to have the minister sent over.

So the manner in which they approached it was something to be questioned, but I asked that question: So why didn't you go to the Pippy Park Commission? I checked with the Pippy Park Commission and they told me that they have never sat down with this group of people to discuss their issues, because I had met with an individual two or three weeks ago and discussed his concerns, personal concerns, but not as a group. I didn't know this group existed.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: No, I think they're a newly formed group.

MR. EFFORD: Well, no, they've been on the go for some time.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Yes, I suppose in formation. I'm not totally familiar with them, but they contacted me the day prior to the press conference and I couldn't go either. To that, I suppose, I would ask that yourself and your officials keep me apprised of what's happening in as much as there's not a lot of things in my district that I can chase you for in terms of services and roads and attention, but on this one I want to be sure that as a city MHA, I guess, I'm involved in it and others are as well.

MR. EFFORD: They've requested a meeting with myself, so what I suggested to the committee is that I first meet with the Pippy Park Commission. There is a meeting being scheduled now so when I meet with the Pippy Park Commission I intend to meet with the group and the Pippy Park Commission. I am not going to do one in isolation of the other. I think the Pippy Park Commission should be in on the meeting. I will inform you so that you and any of the MHAs in the area can attend the same meeting.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, very much, Mr. Minister.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You are welcome.

Mr. Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, very quickly, is there much consideration given to the priority list that the MHAs submit to your department as far as road priority?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: Wasted effort?

MR. EFFORD: No, it is not a wasted effort.

MR. FITZGERALD: How do you decide on your priorities as far as doing road work?

MR. EFFORD: I cannot answer that on the grounds that it might incriminate me.

MR. FITZGERALD: Tell me the truth, and in that way I will not waste my time in going through the motions.

MR. EFFORD: If I were to look at Port de Grave district and Bonavista South I would have to say Bonavista South would get a fair hearing.

MR. FITZGERALD: It is reflected in the amount of work we got this year.

MR. EFFORD: I think so.

I am going to be honest in this. This is not joking. You have to remember, too, that we were on the opposition for seventeen years. I got elected in 1985 and from 1985 to 1989 in the opposition there was not one dollar spent in Port de Grave district.

MR. FITZGERALD: You would certainly not want to be tagged as bad as those fellows, would you?

MR. EFFORD: I would not say that. I believe in fairness and balance, bringing us up to the balance of what you people enjoyed for seventeen years.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, the cost of maintaining local airstrips. Is that fully borne by your department and the taxpayers of this Province? I am not referring to Gander International Airport. What I am referring to are the local airstrips like the one existing in the Clarenville area.

MR. EFFORD: What did you say about the Clarenville area?

MR. FITZGERALD: Like an airstrip similar to the one existing in the Clarenville area.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, that is the cost of our department except for the restoration of the ones in Labrador which would be federal responsibility. On the Island they are the responsibility of my department.

MR. FITZGERALD: Is there a fee charged to the private owners who use those airports for pleasure and recreation?

MR. EFFORD: There are no buildings or anything on any of those airstrips. It is just a service provided to the individual using that particular airstrip. The only thing they would have to do is notify in the normal safety of aviation, but there is no fee structure charged by the department. Is there a fee for flying they would have to pay Transport Canada?

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. EFFORD: There is nothing.

MR. FITZGERALD: So, they do not have to bear any part of the expense for using that particular air facility, or any facility of that nature?

Another pet peeve in our area, and I brought this up at the last meeting, I will not refer to it as boulders in the sand that you put on the roads in the wintertime, but as rocks, which are certainly causing a big problem. You never find it on the Trans-Canada Highways but on the other branch roads you do many times. It is almost a situation that if you see the snowplough go down and the sander you stay home for a couple of days because I can assure you that you are going to get your windshield broken.

MR. EFFORD: That is a bit of an exaggeration.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, it is not an exaggeration. It is a big problem. I am wondering if there is any intention of changing that or is it only me who continues to bring it up?

MR. EFFORD: You know very well that Glen Tobin, the MHA for Burin - Placentia West brought it up here but he referred to it as boulders and rocks, and mountains in the middle of the road. Now, I suggest there is a reason for doing that, too, but you know full well what the problem is. On the Trans-Canada we totally use salt; on the local roads or the off-roads we use a mixture of sand and salt. Depending on the climatic conditions, the temperature, sometimes sand freezes and you get a little, I wouldn't say boulders but you get a little -

MR. FITZGERALD: No, they are rocks. It is not sand frozen together I am sure.

MR. EFFORD: Now if there is rock in it, we will have to look at it but what we get is that it gets frozen very hard and then it flicks sometimes but I mean that's a part of the conditions that we have to drive under; I don't think it is as serious as what you are saying but what I will do and what I have already committed to doing, and prior to Terry becoming ADM, I spoke to his predecessor John O'Reilly, who was the then ADM responsible for this, and what we are going to take a look at is, sifting; is that the right word you use - to make sure that it is done -

MR. FITZGERALD: Screening, it's a screening process.

MR. EFFORD: Screening, the sifting or the screening of the sand for next winter, but after all, where using hundreds of thousands of tons of sand on the road so you are going to get the occasional rock, but I don't -

MR. FITZGERALD: No, it is not the occasional rock, Mr. Minister.

MR. EFFORD: If there are any mountains then I will go and remove them.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, no, it is not that. You are stretching the concerns -

MR. EFFORD: No, but you said boulders.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, I didn't. I said I am not going to refer to it as boulders as some other members have, is what I said -

MR. EFFORD: Oh, I am sorry, I am sorry. Okay.

MR. FITZGERALD: - and when you see a person who went and bought a new car and had to end up getting a paint job or replacing a windshield and a side window from the sand that comes from a Department of Works, Services and Transportation truck -

MR. EFFORD: What!

MR. FITZGERALD: - I don't think you can shrug it off and say there is no concern.

MR. EFFORD: How close were they driving?

MR. FITZGERALD: They weren't driving close at all, in fact, they met the truck. They met it, and I can refer you to the person because it was my sister-in-law.

MR. EFFORD: So? That's not saying they could not have been tailgating or something.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, they met the truck, they met it. It wasn't tailgating, they met it, it is as simple as that and what you will find is, most of the time when you get your windshield broken it is not the point of tailgating, it is the point again of meeting a vehicle on the highway. That has been my experience, and I'm sure that other people here can refer to the same thing.

MR. EFFORD: Yourself and the MHA for Burin - Placentia West are the only two I believe who brought that to my attention, but he brought it in the House of Assembly during Question Period. Certainly you can't be responsible for all the windshields that are broken on any stretch of highway. If there is a concern, if there is anything to substantiate - and we are checking this out - that the screening of the sand is causing us that, we are going to improve it next year.

MR. FITZGERALD: Also, the new rules and regulations. I spoke with Mr. Hussey about this on a couple of occasions, and I thank him for his advice and the time that he allowed me for it. The new inspections of licencing - well, inspecting dump trucks and buses. In my District there is one individual now who has a great concern. He was always allowed to do that. I don't know if he was ever allowed to inspect buses but I know he was always allowed to inspect dump trucks and that sort of thing. Is there any consideration that might be given to people who were always involved in that type of business being grandfathered in to the situation? Where you have an individual now who is fifty-five or sixty years old and not well versed as far as having a Level III education and this sort of thing. Has any thought been given to that?

MR. EFFORD: I will answer the first part of it and then I will let Mr. Hussey deal with that part.

You have to remember that the reasons why - you've got to understand, I shouldn't say remember - the department brought in these new regulations on these vehicles and dump trucks and school buses. It is strictly safety. We cannot have school buses or passenger vehicles of that magnitude out on the highway not being safe. All you need is one accident, the loss of one life. Heaven forbid it ever happens. Then the responsibility comes back on who?... on the department, on the minister, and on government as to why you are allowing this. Safety is the utmost consideration and is the thing that is promoted. Max do you have anything on that?

MR. HUSSEY: Yes, on the issue of certification of older individuals. We've looked at this. We've made many adjustments in the program since its inception just a couple of months ago. We've worked with the Department of Education through the trades branch that certifies these people and we have a bunch of people now taking upgrading. We have other people who have written exams and actually passed the certification process. Most recently we've had discussions - only yesterday, which I haven't even had a chance to talk to the minister about - about the possibility maybe of establishing a separate approval process for these types of people, whereby they could write some kind of a screening exam to ensure that they do have the knowledge to do the inspections.

MR. EFFORD: Again, I can just boast about the cooperation and the working of the department.

MR. FITZGERALD: That is something that I would like to see brought in, because if you notice we are doing it now with the Department of Employment and Labour Relations in electrical inspections and boiler inspections. The minister continues to refer back to the licensed mechanic or the person who was doing the work on the car. If we use that as an example I suppose there is no reason why we can't consider some of those people with a lot of knowledge and who have been involved in the industry all their lives, and now who've found themselves with most of their livelihood being taken from them.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It is close to 10:30 a.m. and if the Committee wishes we can break for ten minutes for coffee and come back. We will break for ten minutes for coffee.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, you are a gentleman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

We will begin the questioning with Mr. Noel.

MR. NOEL: I would be happy to yield to Mr. Careen if he wants to ask a few questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I welcome Nick Careen, the Member for Placentia. Nick is the critic for Works, Services and Transportation in the Opposition.

MR. NOEL: We know he just wants an opportunity to demonstrate his talents.

MR. CAREEN: I would like to thank the Member for Pleasantville. Good morning all.

Mr. Minister, of late you've been dickering with Marine Atlantic over south coast transportation situations, and the main goal, like anything else, is the improvements - it always has to be - but you know that Gaultois is an island, and up the south coast they've had trouble off and on over the years with Marine Atlantic. We've heard them through different political entities in government, and the latest on Gaultois, you were hoping to make some kind of announcement, or meet with those people shortly regarding improvements, because they say that the proposals thrown at them awhile ago, none of them are improvements really.

MR. EFFORD: Who said that?

MR. CAREEN: A couple of different people I was talking to, Sir.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Chairman again, you see, we make assumptions based on rumours and not on facts.

First of all the South Coast system, the ferry system provided by the Province and by Marine Atlantic, there has been a duplication of services, and really not looking at a cooperative agreement between both governments with the concerns of the people in mind to try to work out an improvement of service to the isolated communities. What the department has been doing over the last number of months is sitting down with the officials of Marine Atlantic and coming up with several different options that would take all of the communities along the Southwest Coast - Ramea, Grey River, François, McCallum, Recontre, Gaultois - and to try to put together a system there that will provide these services, much improved services, to those people. We've had officials meeting on a continuing basis.

A couple of weeks ago I said - well, I said it before that - but a couple of weeks ago we took the step to: Okay, we've looked at several different options. We don't want to make any final decisions in isolation of the people in those communities so let's go down to each community and present those options. Not final decisions, options. Let's give the people a chance for now to have their input into those options. Then we will come back, look at the input from the people - again we are allowing the people the time and the opportunity to participate before any final decision is made. Because too often the former governments which you are now a part of, but you weren't there then, you are now part of - the party you are part of now - often did things in isolation from people. I never ever did that in private and I don't intend to do it in government.

We've met with each community and we gave an opportunity for the local representatives and public of those communities to participate in presenting, looking at the options, and having an input. I went there myself. I didn't get into two communities because the pilot wouldn't land because of the wind. He was afraid, he said it was dangerous to land, so I missed Grey River and François. But officials went back and met with the people in those communities. In each instance they were told very clearly and carefully that these are not final decisions. These are only options in which we want your input. At the end of the day, when we take your input, we will go back to the department, the two groups - Marine Atlantic and our department - will be together and encompass it all. Then we will go back to each individual group and say: Do you like this? By God, I can't do any more than that.

MR. CAREEN: Now the other side of the coin is, the other thing is, that there are talks, and it is so close run, it might terminate in Rose Blanche.

MR. EFFORD: No "might" into it.

MR. CAREEN: Definitely?

MR. EFFORD: You got it.

MR. CAREEN: That is going to -

MR. EFFORD: No "might" into it.

MR. CAREEN: That is going to put a bit of hardship on people coming through on buses.

MR. EFFORD: No.

MR. CAREEN: It is not bad in the summertime if you have a shuttle bus going down to Rose Blanche from Port aux Basques. But in the wintertime when you have to try to get around places such as the Devil's Elbow up there, a severe winding road, and there are places where a boat can go in the wintertime -

MR. EFFORD: There is not a section of this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador where there are not hardships placed on people because of climate conditions.

MR. CAREEN: That is right. What I'm saying is, why only for the sake of an hour terminate at Rose Blanche? What is the saving to Marine Atlantic then? It had to be the savings to Marine Atlantic. It is not the savings to the travelling public of this Province.

MR. EFFORD: Probably I was too strong in saying the word. I don't know - did I use the word "definite"?

MR. CAREEN: I used "definite," you said, "You got it." So.

MR. EFFORD: Okay. Marine Atlantic wants to terminate at Rose Blanche. We have not been giving - except for the distance in the travel to Port aux Basques. What we are saying to the people is: If we can come to an agreement where the services are being provided to those people, and much improved services, that they will now be able to - well, there are three different areas. There is Burgeo and Rose Blanche and on this end it would be Bay L'Argent, not Terrenceville, it would be including Bay L'Argent. Why would people then continue to go to Port aux Basques? The next point I want to make is, I have to drive 600 miles if I want to get to Port aux Basques, so why would they not get into their vehicles and go into Burgeo or into Bay L'Argent and drive as everybody else? I think that is what will happen.

The people, by the way, when I presented those things to them, agreed. They said they did not even think about that.

MR. CAREEN: So you are saying there might be a transportation system that would take you from Bay L'Argent in the morning and go right up the south coast and terminate at Rose Blanche that evening?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. CAREEN: I would have to see it.

MR. EFFORD: Well, we are positive thinkers.

MR. CAREEN: So am I.

MR. EFFORD: You are not there now.

MR. CAREEN: No, I am not there now but I have seen too much stuff going on.

MR. EFFORD: Well, I have seen too much stuff happen over the last seventeen years.

MR. CAREEN: It is not that I do not trust you, Minister, but I am talking about some of the others you have to deal with.

MR. EFFORD: Well!

MR. CAREEN: That is what I am saying, Marine Atlantic.

About five weeks ago we had a terrific downpour of rain on a particular Friday and a section of ditching could not bear what was happening and the culverts were inadequate. In places such as Dunville there were a good many washouts in roads, also in South East Placentia and in Freshwater. Because of the number of letters that came into your department have you directed some of your officials to have a look at the damages?

MR. EFFORD: Earlier in my opening remarks - you were not here Nick at the time when I made the statement, since coming into the Department of Works, Services and Transportation on a daily basis it is unbelievable the amount of paper work that comes from every area of the Province concerning road conditions, flooding, and the build up of ice in brooks, culverts, and everything else, and also when you have heavy rainfalls. It is very evident because of the climate where you have three seasons in any one day, so it is an ongoing continuous problem all over the Province, especially this time of the year when you have run-offs.

I received letters from you and from individuals. They also wrote the Premier and the Premier sent a copy over to me so I have received three copies of each one. In each instance I put a note on it saying, sent it to the area officials, and had the area officials meet with the parties concerned, and then before any final decision is taken come back and let me know so that I have a clear understanding that the concerns of those people have been addressed.

MR. CAREEN: Prince Charles Place, you and I have talked about it from there to here a number of months ago and you had a designer come up with some kind of proposal.

MR. EFFORD: You mean Prince Philip Place.

MR. CAREEN: Prince Philip Place.

MR. EFFORD: I was going to say what is Prince Charles Place? I have enough princes to deal with now.

MR. CAREEN: I get mixed up in royalty.

Anyway, what is the latest on that?

MR. EFFORD: We have the engineering specs done but the department would like to see Prince Philip Place once it is renovated to the satisfaction of the department - we have that form completed but we are in the process now of deciding whether or not to call for public proposals for a private developer to use their own money in the total reconstruction of Prince Philip Place. That is something government is considering and we will be making a final decision within the next few days.

The approximate cost of renovations is about $6 million but we do not have the ability to go out and borrow that kind of money so we will get private enterprise again involved, privatization, with a lease-back arrangement to government. That is something that will be done in the next couple of days.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Minister. Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: I have a couple of more questions about the re-routing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Pasadena, what's the status of it now? When will the minister next meet with the Pasadena Town Council? When will the minister -

MR. EFFORD: When will I next meet with the Pasadena Town Council?

MS. VERGE: Yes. When will the minister make available to the public whatever he has on paper in the way of a feasibility study of his proposed trench transmission line route? When will the minister be going to Cabinet for a Cabinet decision on the route, if he hasn't gone already?

MR. EFFORD: When will I be presenting a feasibility study on the new route?

MS. VERGE: No, three questions, when will the minister next meet with the Pasadena Town Council?

MR. EFFORD: Why should we meet with the Pasadena Town Council? They've made their position known publicly.

MS. VERGE: Well the minister just wrote the council or the minister just had one of his officials phone the council office and say that he would be meeting with them or wanted to meet with them again. I'm wondering when he will have that meeting that he suggested and the council wants a meeting as the minister knows. When will the minister next meet with the Pasadena Town Council?

MR. EFFORD: I may not now.

MS. VERGE: Why?

MR. EFFORD: We will not be presenting a feasibility study, any further feasibility studies to anybody in the Pasadena Town Council on any further feasibility studies than have already been done. The transmission line is the route that I very clearly stated to the people of Pasadena in a public forum. I entertained questions and debated with several -

MS. VERGE: But they've rejected that. You've got a petition with signatures of more than 80 per cent of the Pasadena residents.

MR. EFFORD: For several hours I entertained -

MS. VERGE: Chair, I have three precise questions -

MR. EFFORD: But sure let me answer it.

MS. VERGE: The first question is, when is the minister next meeting with the council?

MR. EFFORD: When I decide to meet with the council I will talk to the council of Pasadena, not to the MHA.

MS. VERGE: Fine, okay. The second question, when will the minister make public whatever he has on paper in the way of a design or a study of his transmission line trench proposal?

MR. EFFORD: On the new superhighway that we will be putting through Pasadena, we have already made a public presentation on that superhighway.

MS. VERGE: But all that was, was a map with a red line across it.

MR. EFFORD: Well I'd prefer a red line to a blue one.

MS. VERGE: Surely there have to be technical engineering drawings?

MR. EFFORD: That was what was done that night. In fact, the director of highway design was sitting by my side and he entertained questions that night from the people of Pasadena about the highway design, about the buffer zone, about the -

MS. VERGE: I was at the meeting. I'm asking you about documentation. What we saw that night stuck on the wall was simply a red line -

MR. EFFORD: It wasn't satisfactory to you.

MS. VERGE: I'm asking, when will the minister make available to the public some detailed studies or design of his proposed transmission line route?

MR. EFFORD: We left with the Town Council of Pasadena, to be placed on the wall for public viewing, with the town council, the design of the highway, the routing and the design of the highway that's going to go through Pasadena.

MS. VERGE: Chair, the minister is just simply avoiding the question. All that the Pasadena Council has is the same as or similar to what was posted on the wall at the public meeting, a simple map with a line across it. I'm asking for some detail about the design of this proposed new route.

MR. EFFORD: I can't give any more detail about the superhighway that we're putting through Pasadena any more then I did for several hours - I shouldn't say I, we did for several hours at that public forum to all the Pasadena people, except I went one step further then that. I said at that public meeting - I've replied to letters sent - I said if any person or persons who are still not satisfied with the explanation can come into my office at any time that they request a meeting and I'll go over it in more detail. We have presented as much information as was presented on the southern bypass route; we don't see the necessity of going beyond that. We are not going to spend any more money for more studies and we will continue on with the plans of the department.

MS. VERGE: Chair, does the department have a plan? That's what I am trying get at.

MR. EFFORD: Oh most definitely. That's the one thing I pride myself on.

MS. VERGE: You can't give a map with a red line on it to a contractor and have the contractor carry out the construction project. Has the department done anything more than put a red line on a map?

MR. EFFORD: Most definitely.

MS. VERGE: Will the (inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: That will be in full consultation with the contractor or contractors.

MS. VERGE: Will the minister make available to the public by tabling for the Committee or tabling in the full House as I asked a couple of days ago -

MR. EFFORD: No.

MS. VERGE: - whatever more he has on paper?

MR. EFFORD: No.

MS. VERGE: Why?

MR. EFFORD: Because I have already told the people of Pasadena exactly what's going to take place out there.

MS. VERGE: But the people of Pasadena and their MHA would like to see more specifics of the minister's grand design. Perhaps the minister has a brilliant idea that we simply fail to appreciate but if we are shown more detail, we may conclude that, yes, indeed the minister is brilliant and he knows better than the three independent consulting engineering firms which have already examined options and the minister had a better idea, but we need to see more detail.

MR. EFFORD: We feel we have a better idea than the three studies that were done, two for the department and one for the Town of Pasadena. Take the southern bypass route, number one, $10 million; number 2, the grading; number 3, the extra distance -

MS. VERGE: Chair, the minister is straying from my questions.

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MR. DUMARESQUE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Eagle River, on a point of order.

MR. DUMARESQUE: The hon. Member for Humber East is obviously not happy with the answers but just because you are not happy with some of the answers that the minister is clearly giving to the hon. member does not constitute a privilege for the hon. member to keep badgering the minister because she doesn't get what she wants. The answers are given, they are clearly substantiated and I think the hon. member has to accept that she does not always get things her way.

MR. CHAIRMAN: As Chairperson, I didn't notice the badgering. Maybe I should pay more attention, but anyway there is no point of order. Ms. Verge.

MS. VERGE: The final part of my question for the minister which he hasn't answered is, has the minister gone to Cabinet or, if not, when will he be going to Cabinet for a decision on the TCH route in Pasadena?

MR. EFFORD: First of all, the hon. member being a former Cabinet minister, knows full well that you do not put Cabinet or government on any schedule.

MS. VERGE: So you haven't gone yet. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Now, I have other questions about -

MR. EFFORD: You assumed an answer.

MS. VERGE: - the recently constructed new, four-lane Trans-Canada Highway in the Corner Brook area, specifically the section above Riverside Drive. Last year at this time, it happened to be during the election campaign, there was bad flooding from the new highway down the hill to Riverside Drive. This year there has been worse flooding and a landslide; does the minister take any responsibility for -

AN HON. MEMBER: Landslide.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

MS. VERGE: - the flooding and the recent landslide since many people in that area believe that it was the earth moving and the new highway construction done by the government in rerouting the Trans-Canada and building the new four-lane highway, that has basically caused or aggravated a previous problem and caused the landslide this year?

MR. EFFORD: I take a lot of responsibility for the landslide experience last May 3rd.

MS. VERGE: How about the landslide on Riverside Drive this spring?

MR. EFFORD: As I understand, that is a council responsibility. In fact I watched, it was last evening or the evening before, the Mayor of Corner Brook, Mayor Pollet and another group at a public forum, some people attended a meeting and they discussed then the situation of the landslide that the hon. member is talking about, and was committed by the Mayor of Corner Brook, the council of Corner Brook that that was going to be taken care of in the very near future.

MS. VERGE: So the minister is not taking any responsibility?

MR. EFFORD: No. You are the first person who has even spoken or asked a question on it. I have never received any communication from anybody in the Corner Brook area about that situation.

MS. VERGE: Okay.

Now, moving a little further west, the government which recently built a new four-lane divided super Trans-Canada Highway bypassing Corner Brook made a colossal mess of it, and the minister has undertaken to make some modifications this summer, what exactly is the minister going to do to try to improve that highway network? In particular, is the minister going to upgrade the former highway -

MR. EFFORD: Arterial.

MS. VERGE: - as you exit the west bound lane entering Corner Brook by the cement plant, and is the minister going to make any alteration to the ramps connecting the Lewin Parkway Overpass; and is the minister going to add some signage to give motorists better direction since the current situation is quite confusing? Finally, what is the minister going to do to beautify the ugly, barren, rocky bank in Maple Valley?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

Your time is just about up.

MS. VERGE: Yes, I am finished now.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you require an answer for those series of questions?

MS. VERGE: I would like an answer to all of those questions.

MR. EFFORD: You see, on the one hand she accuses the department of making a colossal mess and on the other hand the member wants us to make a colossal mess out in Pasadena, so you can't have it both ways.

I inherited the Department of Works, Services and Transportation last year -

MS. VERGE: Are you promising only one mess, not two?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Could we have a short answer to that question, because we have to move on.

MR. EFFORD: We're looking at all options.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

Mr. Dumaresque.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, it being 11:08 a.m. -

MR. CHAIRMAN: It's 11:08 a.m., Mr. Dumaresque. You have ten minutes.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Okay, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to pursue a couple of questions on the Trans-Labrador Highway, the Northern Gulf Route. I am particularly interested in the process.

For the new road that we have stated in our Strategic Economic Plan, for the new road that the minister has been working hard on for the people on the Coast of Labrador, what is the process now? Has it been registered with the Department of Environment and Lands? Does that have to be done right away? Or what kind of process is there, and what's the time frame for that type of thing?

MR. EFFORD: First of all, the first thing we've got to do is access monies to do the environmental study. The estimated cost of doing the environmental study is going to be somewhere in the $3 million to $6 million range. I suspect it's going to be in the higher rather than lower range. That's one of the things that's got to be done in negotiation with the federal government for monies. As I said earlier, that's hopefully taking place as we're talking.

Once we get the money then we will go and register for an environmental process to take place, but we don't have the monies in our budget, as the hon. member knows, but that will be a part of the federal agreement.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Is that the normal process, that the federal government always provides money for an environmental process on a new road, any new road that will be built in the Province?

MR. EFFORD: Not for entire roads, but in this case where we want the federal government to take responsibility in the overall financial package, because we do not have and we will never have the total amount of money, as much as we would all like, to do the Northern Gulf Route, but it should be and we want to direct the responsibility to the federal coffers and get as much as we can out of the federal system in order to do that route, so we would like the federal government to become involved up front in any initiations of any environmental studies, but the federal do their own.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: The federal involvement, the cost-shared agreements, and that's the reason why I'm saying we're trying to encourage the federal government to take the lead in providing the greater portion. We certainly wouldn't be able to do it on a 50\50 basis. It has got to be more 70-30, 80-20, or 90-10 if possible.

MR. DUMARESQUE: It is like the Pasadena road, that new road you are just going to do there. That has gone through an environmental process that was paid for by the federal government?

MR. EFFORD: No, that doesn't need to go through an environmental process because of where it is located. For argument's sake (inaudible) -

MR. DUMARESQUE: By the transmission line.

MR. EFFORD: By the transmission line.

MR. DUMARESQUE: That has already gone.

MR. EFFORD: Consultation, we've had consultation with the Department of Environment and Lands from Day 1 and we've asked for any concerns, and we've got full approval.

MR. DUMARESQUE: For survey work to be done, does the environmental study have to be done -

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. DUMARESQUE: - and finished and completed?

MR. EFFORD: Yes. You see, if we went ahead and did a survey of what we perceive to be the right, correct route, then the environmental impact study was done and said: No, that is crazy, you can't go there, well then everything would be lost, it would be worthless. The environmental impact study has to be done in order for us to be able to survey. Is that not correct?

AN HON. MEMBER: That's correct.

MR. DUMARESQUE: For a new road, is it an automatic full environmental assessment?

MR. EFFORD: Oh yes.

MR. DUMARESQUE: As opposed to an environmental report?

MR. EFFORD: I would think that in the case of the route in Labrador then that would be a full environmental assessment. It is a responsibility for us to do that. Especially with the concerns expressed already in the (inaudible) report by the people of Labrador. I cannot see - even if we were allowed to by-pass we wouldn't - you know, you would have to do a full environmental impact study . We have no other choice, is that correct?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. DUMARESQUE: The proposal that you are putting together now then is for the route. One of the questions - Route No. 1, I guess, what you said earlier -

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. DUMARESQUE: - which goes down along the Coast. One of the questions that many people in Labrador are asking - they know what happened on the Northern Peninsula - is it the government's intention to have the construction start on both ends? Because if we didn't, for example, we could very well spend fifteen years going from Churchill Falls to the Coast, and it would be fifteen years before you would be able to start connecting the coastal communities.

As the minister knows, 80 per cent of the communities that are on the Coast are costing Marine Atlantic, or costing taxpayers, $20-something million a year. That 80 per cent could be freed up within four or five years if the road started on both ends. The precedent is already there on the Northern Peninsula as the Member for Naskaupi would rightly attest to. Has the government considered that aspect of it?

MR. EFFORD: Danny, as you know we are not at the stage yet where we can go to government to make a decision on where we would start. I can say very candidly to you that the point you make is a very valid point. I would be leaning very strongly towards recommending exactly what you are saying and for all the reasons and more of why you are saying it. I cannot see, as you said, starting on one end and then going over. It would be wise to start and come together on that road for the reasons that you've talked about. There is no doubt about it, if I'm still the minister, or whoever is the minister of that day, as the studies and talks go on those are the recommendations that we can work with. It will be in full consultation not only with the representatives, yourself and other people, MHAs like Naskaupi whatever, whatever area, but especially the people of Labrador will have a full input into whatever is being said and done and the proper procedure to follow.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I would like to point out for the record that we had a chance to also discuss the issue that was raised earlier this morning and that caused some confusion on my part, but I thank the minister for clarifying that aspect of the work being contemplated in Happy Valley - Goose Bay to Churchill Falls. I look forward to the results of the other endeavours that you are taking and the Premier is taking. One question on the Lodge Bay Road. This year we have the money I guess, to upgrade that seven-kilometre stretch from Lodge Bay to Mary's Harbour and the people there would now like to see the tenders called as soon as possible because of the short construction season. When do you expect that that will be done?

MR. EFFORD: In two weeks time?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, two weeks.

MR. EFFORD: Two weeks they will be all done. I understand the concerns because I travelled the area last year with my friend into that area and I understand the concerns of the people; they are anxious to get that section of road done because it is in bad condition and I suspect that it is in worse condition now after the winter months and the frost. Terry informs me that in two weeks time the tenders will be called to do that section of road.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Will that include upgrading the airstrip as well as the same plan as we -

MR. EFFORD: Yes, once you bring a contract in there, I mean, because of the expense of bringing it in you would have to do all that in the same time.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have about a minute, Mr. Dumaresque.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I noticed, but the answers have been so forthcoming this time, there is no need for the extra time.

MS. VERGE: You could praise up the minister.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Dumaresque. Mr. Manning.

MR. MANNING: You have a real fan club, Mr. Minister. That's good.

I have some work being planned in St. Mary's - The Capes this year -

MR. EFFORD: What?

MR. MANNING: - the slip of somebody's hand or maybe it is that fairness and balance that we hear the minister talking about all the time.

MR. EFFORD: No, it wasn't. It was a necessity.

MR. MANNING: Necessity? Okay, whatever the case anyway but it is -

MR. EFFORD: A bridge.

MR. MANNING: A bridge, yes. When do you expect this bridge to go to tender and approximately how many dollars are we talking about?

MR. EFFORD: We are talking about $1 million this year, a $2-million project. Tenders are in the process of being called now, I can't put a time on it. Any day now within the next week. We had no other choice, we had to replace that bridge.

MR. MANNING: It must be tough, it sent shivers up your back.

MR. EFFORD: It gave me the shivers.

MR. MANNING: Anyway, our district was the beneficiary of the shivers up your back but that doesn't matter. Will this money be coming under the Provincial Road Program now?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. MANNING: That's the program that it is coming under? On another piece of work that is very important to my district also is some work that is planned for Salmonier Line -

MR. EFFORD: That's Harbour Main District, by the way.

MR. MANNING: It runs into Harbour Main district but is used by myself six days a week, and many people in my district have been lobbying for this piece of work and we were very happy and have no problem in saying it. The minister allowed that to happen too; maybe it was a slip and -

MR. EFFORD: Well that's a Liberal district.

MR. MANNING: Yes, it is a Liberal district, but exactly what work is being planned there this year?

MR. EFFORD: Resurfacing.

MR. MANNING: How many kilometres of road?

MR. EFFORD: Eleven kilometres; approximately $850,000, that's already been publicly announced by the way.

MR. MANNING: Yes, and has that been tendered yet?

MR. EFFORD: Yes, that has gone to tender.

AN HON. MEMBER: That's too quick.

MR. MANNING: What's that?

MR. EFFORD: It closes tomorrow.

MR. MANNING: It closes tomorrow?

MR. EFFORD: Where is Don Whelan so he can go out and announce that.

MR. MANNING: I don't care, I will drive on it. For every time Don Whelan drives on it I drive 100 times so I don't care who gets the credit as long as it is done.

Another question I have concerns the inspection of school buses. It was touched on already but I was wondering: how many times a year are inspections carried out?

MR. EFFORD: Twice a year.

MR. MANNING: Twice a year, and is it the rule that a bus can operate if it is less than fourteen years old, is that the number of years used?

MR. EFFORD: Fourteen years or less.

MR. MANNING: Yes, and is that a rule of this department or Department of Education? This department here I guess, is it?

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MR. MANNING: Is that the rule -

MR. EFFORD: We are responsible for safety.

MR. MANNING: Yes, okay then. With regards to the reorganization of the highway operation section -

MR. EFFORD: Good job.

MR. MANNING: Oh, you didn't hear me roaring and shouting at you. There's a couple of concerns I have - I think I came in on the tail end of some questions from the hon. Member from Bonavista South.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, you slept in.

MR. MANNING: What's that?

MR. EFFORD: You slept in.

MR. MANNING: I'll use the example of St. Bride's where there's a depot and those people have been instructed, more or less, how to operate out of Placentia for the summer months. Would I be correct in saying that you said earlier that some machines may be staying at the depot in St. Bride's and operate from there?

MR. EFFORD: Well you're not suggesting that we'll be taking the equipment every day back to the depot in Placentia are you?

MR. MANNING: No, I'm not suggesting, I'm questioning?

MR. EFFORD: Oh no, we're not going to do that. My gracious -

MR. MANNING: So the equipment will be stationed at St. Bride's and operate from there.

MR. EFFORD: Wherever there is a need to keep equipment for ongoing maintenance. What we're trying not to do - has been done over the years - is to have one or two people on this particular section to do repairs or maintain that piece of road, ditch or whatever so the local people in the area - the foreman who is responsible will send out a group of people and take a section, do it and complete it in an efficient manner instead of spotting here and there all over the place. So the equipment can be kept in the vicinity or the area in which that work is being done.

MR. MANNING: Well it was more or less thought that they would have to leave St. Bride's every day and drive to Placentia, pick up a truck and then drive back out to Point Lance to do some ditch work, that's not the case?

MR. EFFORD: Oh we're much more efficient than that.

MR. MANNING: Oh yes, sure we all know that. I mean no problem and we're glad that you are.

I have a question concerning replacement workers or when somebody leaves, retires or whatever the case may be, when a person puts in an application for a position with the department, is there any thought given to people from the local area or somewhere else, or is it your fairness and balance once again?

MR. EFFORD: Fairness and balance.

MR. MANNING: Fairness and balance, yes but is there -

MS. VERGE: What if they come from Gander Bay?

MR. MANNING: I've had incidences in my district over the past year where some new employees to the department have come from outside the area into my area to work while there were people there quite capable of doing it. I know you go through applications and interviews but shortly after that the person left the depot and there was nobody hired afterwards to replace that person, the St. Joseph's depot I'm talking about. I think it was a Clerk I position, I'm not sure now off the top of my head but there was a position there where somebody came to work there, he later moved on and hasn't been replaced since. Is that position replaced now?

MR. EFFORD: No, what the government has done is make a decision to freeze all rehiring for awhile because we had a number of people retired recently from the department and we've slowed down the rehiring process only where it's absolutely necessary for labourers or maintenance within the department and take a look at the necessity of rehiring people. If people retire then you have support staff in place because people have bumping rights also, so it's not necessarily correct to say we hire outside the area. In most cases we have no other choice because of the union collective agreement. The bumping rights of somebody who may live in St. John's and because they have bumping rights, if they're laid-off they may be transferred and bumping somebody else in a different area but that's a matter of the collective agreement and the choice of that individual, if they want to go and do that.

MR. MANNING: If a person shows up at a depot and the other people at the depot haven't seen the job advertised, why would that be?

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MR. MANNING: If a person shows up to go to work at a depot and the job hasn't been advertised, why would that be?

MR. EFFORD: If a person shows up at a depot and the job has not been advertised?

MR. MANNING: Shows up to go to work at a certain depot, and -

MR. EFFORD: Well, if we have a position vacant at St. Joseph's, and we have a person in Foxtrap whose job is being terminated, that individual would have a bumping right, so that bumping right would bump him right into St. Joseph's - using that as an example.

MR. MANNING: Yes, I'm just trying to get the reasons behind it, that's all, so I can answer the questions coming to me.

A few years ago, back when there were some gravel roads in St. Mary's - The Capes -

MS. VERGE: B.C., before Crosbie.

MR. MANNING: We have a road through Mall Bay now that I've talked to the minister a couple of times about, and I know the answer you would like to give, and maybe you'll still give it, the one that you give me all the time, but that doesn't matter; I'm going to ask the question anyway.

They used to use calcium, I believe, on (inaudible). Is that still used around the Province? I haven't seen it used in my area in a long time because we don't have any gravel roads.

MR. EFFORD: No, because you've got no gravel roads there to be used. That's seventeen years of Tory political decisions being made on paving their own roads and forgetting all the rest of the roads around the Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I say it's good representation.

MR. EFFORD: Okay, that's good representation. I'm experiencing that right now.

MR. MANNING: Seriously, is calcium used on gravel roads in the Province now?

MR. EFFORD: Yes, where the gravel roads are going through communities. We don't use it on all gravel roads, but where it's going through communities, to protect the people from the dust, but we don't use it on byroads, or on cabin roads, or -

MR. MANNING: No, no.

MR. EFFORD: We get an amount of requests, but we don't...

MR. MANNING: But it will be used this summer, because I had a call from a constituent the other day who said that for some environmental reason you weren't using calcium this year, so that's not -

MR. EFFORD: Tenders are called, and there's no environmental reason why it wouldn't be used.

MR. MANNING: No.

MR. EFFORD: Again, that's another rumour.

MR. MANNING: Yes, but when I'm asked a question I have to ask it of somebody else to get the answer.

MR. EFFORD: You see, when I was in the Opposition from 1985 to 1989 I never asked a question that I didn't know the answer.

MR. MANNING: No, but you went on a good many rumours.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will go on to Mr. Matthews.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Chair. I've been intrigued, Mr. Minister, with the debate and discussion that has gone on both in the House and in the Committee this morning between yourself and the hon. member, my colleague to the left here, regarding the road situation in her area. It seems to me it is obvious that the government has paid a lot of attention and put a lot of money into upgrading roads and in that area, and yet there seems to be no way of satisfying the member with respect to what you've done.

I hate to put words in your mouth, sir, but would you agree that there might be some hint of ungratefulness on the part of the member here, and probably a little bit of politics involved in her continuously badgering the minister over his enormous efforts to upgrade and improve her area? Can you comment on that for me? Because if she was being unfairly treated I would come to her defence, but if she is being unfair to you I think that should be exposed clearly.

MR. EFFORD: Far be it from me to accuse the hon. Member for Humber East of being unfair and using the political system to her advantage, to motivate the people of Pasadena and the West Coast of Newfoundland to go against the minister and his department. I don't think she would do that. I guess she just gets caught up in the political thing back and forth here in the House of Assembly. When she goes out to her District she certainly doesn't - I don't think she would - stoop down to doing something unreasonable or unfair to the people in her District.

But I tell you, I'm amazed at how they never say thank you for the millions of dollars that we are spending on the West Coast. In fact, I get a lot of questions from people in my own area: How come you are not spending more on the Conception Bay North by-pass road that they want done out there. They need it done. It is long overdue, and it is all being spent on the West Coast.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Yes.

MR. EFFORD: Somebody else must be representing that District out there.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: The Chair is gone but I'm going to give her a minute of my time at the end in the event that she might want to express some gratitude to you for your enormous efforts in that area. I will try and do that for you, Lynn. I trust you will take advantage of it because it will be good.

The matter of streamlining government operations and that sort of thing. I guess it is a comment more than a question. I was rather impressed about a month ago with the operations of Motor Vehicle Registration when my wife lost her licence. When I say lost as: She couldn't find it in her purse.

AN HON. MEMBER: I just (inaudible).

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Not on the 0.05 per cent deal or anything like that. She took off on holidays and she asked me to get it replaced. I was thinking about having to send one of my staff members in for a full day to line up and get a licence, because that was my experience when I used to go in there years ago. I was amazed that all you had to do was fax in a letter saying: I've lost my licence. Free of charge they mailed a new one to you. To me that was representative of a streamlining of processes within government to make life easier for the public out there, right? I wanted to say that this morning. I trust that those efforts to streamline the processes of government and make government more friendly and more user-friendly to the individuals and the business community carry on. I trust as I got on to earlier that your department will take a lead in this, because certainly you are in the area of procuring services and providing services probably more so than any other department.

Has the Motor Registration branch ever thought about following somewhat along the lines of what they are doing up in Employment and Labour Relations - where they are giving responsibility to the contractors to certify and verify their own inspection work - whether or not the Motor Registration people couldn't do this for, say, people who operate driving schools and that sort of thing, so that they would have the ability to certify drivers rather than having to go through a course and then going through the process of being inspected by people working for your department.

MR. EFFORD: Well, first of all let me say thank you for those kind words to the department officials. Mr. Hussey is here this morning, and he is the individual who's leading the motor registration division, and I give him full credit for improvements being made in the services.

I've had a number of people say the same thing to me publicly about the efficiency of the department, and they deserve the thanks. Like I said earlier, and I've said many times, I just inherited the department. Hopefully I can contribute and add something to it in a small way, but they're the people putting all that together.

One of the things that government, as you know, is concerned about is regulations. We've got a committee put in place right now, government has a committee put in place right now, to look at all of the regulations of government, all departments of government, and at the end of the day, I suppose, whatever time is allowed, I believe it's one year they have to complete the report, during that time each department is responsible for making a presentation to that committee on the regulations, and justify why these regulations should be in place, or should we keep them in place, or why they should be let go, abolished, if that's the right word.

Vehicle inspections, just a few days ago we discussed that very issue because there's a lot of confusion and frustration out around the Province now about supposedly new rules brought in on vehicle inspections, passenger vehicles - not passenger vehicles, but private vehicles. There's a lot of confusion. We're trying to deal with that, but over the next few months the department officials, Max and his people, will be looking at this and come up with a way to improve, probably do away with the regulations, I don't know what the outcome will be, but to improve the system and to make it more efficient and a better operation and better service to the people, so hopefully by the end of the day that will be done, but everything will be considered. There will be nothing that will not be considered in trying to make it a more efficient matter.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you.

MR. EFFORD: Do you have anything to add, Max?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. L. MATTHEWS: The new concept of putting pictures on drivers licences, I think, also is a forward looking -

MR. EFFORD: It's very positive.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: - and a very positive initiative.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, the one thing I might add, we had a press conference about that. It seems like if you don't have a negative press conference you don't get enough attention. If you have a positive press conference you get very little attention, but I think that was a good news item. I don't know if it got the coverage that it deserved across the Province, but I think once it becomes a part of the initial implementation process come December 1 of this year, I think you're right, people will appreciate the value of the photo drivers licence.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: I have two or three minutes left, and I want to honour my commitment to my colleague here. Just a quick question: To what extent does your department interact with the City of St. John's? I realize municipal affairs is the key department there in terms of most of the things that happen in my district happen through the city, but the streets and roads - there are some problems in my district and some would be alleviated by the Outer Ring Road, but there are still problems down in the district, the Cross Town Arterial interchanging with Kenmount Road, with Prince Philip Drive, all of that. Does your department get involved in that at all?

MR. EFFORD: No. Any roads within the jurisdiction of the municipality of St. John's would be the responsibility of the City of St. John's.

We just completed this year turning over the remaining portion of road that we were responsible for within the jurisdiction, seventy-four kilometres of road, and that was about $1 million, was it?

AN HON. MEMBER: A year.

MR. EFFORD: A year, by three years. That relieves us of responsibilities for all roads within the city limits, but municipal affairs would be there.

MS. VERGE: Does that include Cross Town and Pitts Memorial?

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Does that include Cross Town and Pitts Memorial?

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MR. L. MATTHEWS: That includes Cross Town, Pitts Memorial Drive?

MR. EFFORD: Oh, yes.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: The whole -

MR. EFFORD: But on the Outer Ring Road, for argument sake, we will be maintaining that.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Yes.

MR. EFFORD: That's a Trans-Canada extension.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Mr. Careen.

MR. CAREEN: (Inaudible) of the four-lane highway will be done to Roaches Line?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. CAREEN: Then you're going to veer off and go down towards Conception Bay, fair enough. Anyway what are the plans beyond Roaches Line, say to Whitbourne?

MR. EFFORD: We're not stopping at Roaches Line this year. We're continuing 3 kilometres past Roaches Line for the base. We will be paved to Roaches Line this year and the replacement of the new overpass.

MR. CAREEN: You will go 3 kilometres further?

MR. EFFORD: Each year that's what we approximately do coming out on the Trans-Canada, 3 kilometres per year is what we tender.

MR. CAREEN: Very good, thank you. Now the next few questions I ask you, if you have discussed them earlier with someone else just say so and I'll throw them away.

The budget estimates on the Mail Services, 5.1.04, there's quite an increase in transportation and communications. Would you be able to tell me what that is there please?

MR. EFFORD: You'd better let me find it first because this is the first question on the book this morning.

MS. COLE: I think I can answer that question very simply, that's strictly an accounting fee related to social pay cheques. In order to provide for federal cost-sharing we had to go through a specific accounting process which allowed social services then to recharge the amounts to the federal government but if you look down below in the revenue-provincial, you'll see an amount of $400,000 which offsets it. So the net effect to government is zero.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you.

MR. EFFORD: That's under the Canada Assistance Plan for cost-sharing.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you. Now 3.3.04, Advanced Planning Studies, appropriation for professional fees -

MR. EFFORD: 3.3.04?

MR. CAREEN: Yes. There is an increase there, in your building construction, what future plans have you got projected by the increases?

MR. GREENLAND: There's $300,000 here, which the minister has already mentioned, for the advanced planning for the museum and archives complex. The fund was set up, I think last year for the first time, to take care of planning for projects that arise through the year and these will be approved by Treasury Board or Cabinet and announced as they're approved.

MR. CAREEN: Areas have arisen out of Newfoundland where people have put cabins in certain areas, then some people - particularly some retired - these areas closest to St. John's they become communities. Is there a certain residence number, four houses, five, six, where Transportation will do snow clearing or some upgrading and gravel and whatever? Is there a rule of thumb?

MR. EFFORD: One of the biggest problems that we've got in the department right now is people building without planning or permission from either a municipality, a regional plan or anything from the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. They build a house or build, in this particular case, summer cabins. After they build the roads then they come through the department and through the system to try to get the department to take over that road. What we're saying to all cabin owners with roads we are not now doing anything on, no, we will not take them over in the future.

MR. MANNING: Now I'm talking about some places - you've seen what happened to Brigus Junction, it built up and built up. Now you got Placentia Junction, there's a lot of cabins there but there is a number of families who live there year-round now too.

MR. EFFORD: That is a different situation.

MR. CAREEN: Last winter they got the beaver headquarters there. Your answer to me jokingly was to shoot the beaver. But you can't kill all the beavers either.

MR. EFFORD: I don't think I said shoot the beaver. I believe in protection, conservation measures.

MR. CAREEN: But anyway -

AN HON. MEMBER: Stop the beavers.

MR. EFFORD: Stop the beavers. Or talk to them.

MR. CAREEN: But there are no plans on looking at Placentia Junction and the people, residents?

MR. EFFORD: Not cabin areas.

MR. CAREEN: These people, there are some of them live there now year-round.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, but you have to remember -

MR. CAREEN: It is not in any municipality.

MR. EFFORD: One of the reasons why they built a cabin was for quietness, peaceful relaxation, and away from traffic. That was one of the reasons. Then they made the decision: This is so quiet and so peaceful that they want to live there, but that was a matter of choice. They knew full well before they constructed that home or cabin or recreational area, whatever, what the responsibility they would have in order to keep that road. What I've suggested to a lot of cabin owners, and I think you will agree with me on this one, in personally talking to people - I think the department suggested long probably before I did - but I know what I've done.

If you live in an area and you decide to build that cabin there, and there are ten, twelve, fifteen, thirty or forty cabins - in the case of some areas there are more than that - charge a yearly fee of $50 or $100 or whatever you decide and maintain that road. But if we took over every section of road in this Province we would need a budget three times the size of what we have, and we just can't do that.

MR. CAREEN: That is the reason I asked you the question, because there is an assumption out across the Province that with a certain - when they go from just weekend livyers to permanent livyers there is a certain kind of rule of thumb that Works, Services and Transportation will look out for them.

MR. EFFORD: No.

MR. CAREEN: I just wanted to put that at ease. Another thing. I talked to one of your men earlier, and I spoke about it last year. We all have a concern with it. We all know that wealthier states in the union, northern climes, or particularly Ontario, but the thing would have it if money could buy it. The yellow lines. Now the -

MR. EFFORD: What?

MR. CAREEN: The yellow lines on our highways. We all know that in our foggy conditions and whatever, I mean, when they start to fade at certain times of the year it is harder to drive. Because one eye, you are trying to find the yellow line, and on other occasions you are looking for moose at the same time. Is there any sort of overture made to any... not inventors but designers or whatever, to come up with a paint that will last for a longer period of time? Our hazardous conditions, our salt, our sand, our traffic, our winter.

MR. EFFORD: Terry here is responsible for highway design. I haven't seen the scientific cap on him yet. I don't know if we can put one on him.

MR. CAREEN: No, but you know what I'm saying, John.

MR. EFFORD: One of the problems we have with maintaining the marking on the highways is the climatic conditions, as you said: the frost, the snow, the salt, the tremendous things that happen with the changing of the weather, temperatures and climate causes that to happen. Salt is a prime thing that causes the line to disappear.

The only thing we can do, and we will continue doing naturally, is we can in calling tenders inspect the paint. We spec that out, the best possible paint to use to last the longest period of time. I tell you, it is difficult to get that. Weather conditions permitting we will keep the lines on the road during the summer months. In the winter months it doesn't matter because you don't see them anyhow. But in the summer months....

MR. CAREEN: I will be some glad when I find a streak at all.

MR. EFFORD: You make a good point you know, finding a type of paint that can last longer, I would say to you very seriously if there were one to be found or if somebody knows of one, we would be only too happy to use it.

MR. CAREEN: I don't know, I just -

MR. EFFORD: But it is a legitimate question, there is no doubt about it because driving along, the foggy conditions, with moose on the roads, it is very difficult, sometimes it causes accidents and we have a responsibility to try to provide a safe highway and that is a very major concern of the officials of the department.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Noel had to step out so we will go to Ms. Verge for l0 minutes. It is now 11:46.

MS. VERGE: Back to the Humber Valley.

The minister and his federal counterpart, Brian Tobin, announced that this year, with the federal Road for Rails money, the provincial department is going to continue the four-laning from Steady Brook East to Rapid Pond in Little Rapids. Some years earlier, the minister's staff had held public hearings and displayed to the public a route for that stretch of the highway.

This winter, the ADM, Mr. McCarthy, met with the Little Rapids Local Service District Committee and Little Rapids residents at a public meeting which was held in Pasadena and unveiled new plans showing some changes to the earlier design. When I last spoke to the minister about the Little Rapids section of the highway, it was a private conversation here in the House, and reiterated my concerns about the changes taking Strawberry Hill and involving two culvert or pipe type overpasses, the minister said that he was rethinking some of the design and I am wondering where that is now?

MR. EFFORD: First of all, we are not taking Strawberry Hill, we are taking a very, very, small portion of Strawberry Hill. There have been some changes as you indicated, as to the location of the road, where it is going. I don't see it possible to use anything other than the culverts which we are talking about. I have had on a number of occasions people from the North Star Cement, Mr. Manuel I think is the one who is leading the troops all the time, if they could give us a reasonable cost to be competitive with those steel culverts we would consider putting concrete wherever, ever possible, but the extreme cost of putting in concrete is prohibative. We just don't have the monies.

MS. VERGE: What is a rough comparison in the cost between a steel culvert -

MR. EFFORD: Or a concrete overpass?

MS. VERGE: - or an overpass such as the one in front of the cement plant, ironically, and a normal type concrete overpass?

MR. EFFORD: You are talking about two to one.

MS. VERGE: Two to one. Well in the case of the Little Rapids stretch of the Trans-Canada, in the original plan there was only going to be one interchange and now there are going to be two.

MR. EFFORD: Two interchanges.

MS. VERGE: So presumably if the two to one ratio is true then the cost will be no different. Now there are going to be two, whereas before there was going to be one.

MR. EFFORD: What do you mean? If you are going to put in two steel culverts compared to one, it is going to be four to one, total cost to replace it if you use concrete.

MS. VERGE: I thought the minister just said concrete was twice as expensive as steel?

MR. EFFORD: Yes, but if we use concrete instead of the culverts, and we put in two intersections and use concrete in both of them you are talking about a lot of extra cost.

MS. VERGE: That is not what I asked.

MR. EFFORD: Oh, I am sorry. I misunderstood you.

MS. VERGE: Is the minister still proposing to have the new highway go north of Rapid Pond and take Strawberry Hill?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MS. VERGE: I think that is a terrible mistake.

MR. EFFORD: Well, I would have been surprised had you said anything else because you have not agreed with one thing I have done yet.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: She has not used my minute yet.

MR. EFFORD: No, you have not used a minute to say thank you. I have to question why we are spending all that money out there when you do not want it.

MS. VERGE: I have to question the way you are spending it. It is federal money. Speaking of what you spent would the minister provide me, or the committee, with a detailed breakdown of what has been spent so far of the federal Roads for Rails Agreement money and in particular what has been spent in the Humber Valley? Also, give me a breakdown of what remains to be spent for the balance of the term of the agreement, and in the case of the Humber Valley would the minister provide the committee with a list of what has been spent of provincial funds for Humber Valley property acquisitions and compensation to property owners and businesses which have been injuriously or adversely affected by the changes in the Trans-Canada?

MR. EFFORD: Let me say one thing, I do not agree with what the member just said about this federal money. It is not federal money. The federal government purchased our railway and when they took away the railway they gave us $800 million in payment for that railway. It is now our money, the same as if I bought a piece of property off you and gave you a sum of money for it, that then is your money and not mine. The federal government does not own that money.

MS. VERGE: Nevertheless the money is coming from the federal government over a period of ten to twelve years.

MR. EFFORD: They bought a piece of property from us. They bought a product unwillingly against my best judgement. The $800 million was not to my satisfaction but I was on the opposition then. They bought a product and they paid us. That is a Newfoundland/Canada thing again.

MS. VERGE: Now, highway signs - Jim Walsh a few years ago -

MR. EFFORD: The former minister.

MS. VERGE: - before he was in the Cabinet, headed a task force, I think it was called, to go around the Province consulting people about a highway signage policy for the Province. The consultation process seemed to be quite satisfactory to many people I heard comment on it. I gather quite a few people participated in it. Does the provincial government yet have a highway signage policy and if so what is it?

MR. EFFORD: The Department of Tourism has the full responsibility

to implement the highway signage policy. Our responsibility as the Department of Works, Services and Transportation is at the advice or request of that department to either take down or to put up signs. There is, as you said, with the full consultation of the people across the Province a new highway signage policy and it is being left the responsibility of the Department of Tourism and Culture.

MS. VERGE: What is happening on the ground now is that people are putting up signs wherever they feel like it.

MR. EFFORD: Pardon!

MS. VERGE: What is happening in practice now is that signs of every sort and description are going up wherever people feel like putting them. Is that what is provided for in the new policy?

MR. EFFORD: That is not happening now. In order to put up a sign in any area within the Province now they have to seek permission.

MS. VERGE: From whom?

MR. EFFORD: From the Department of Tourism and Culture.

MS. VERGE: Okay. I will take that up with the Minister of Tourism and Culture.

I would like to come back to the question of the new four-lane Trans-Canada Highway in Maple Valley. When I raised concerns last year about the scarring of the landscape associated with the construction of the new highway in Maple Valley, and suggested to the minister that the department do more than hydroseeding, and instead, in co-operation with some business people in Maple Valley and the Corner Brook Chamber of Commerce and the City of Corner Brook, as well as the member for the district, that appropriate landscaping be done with perhaps some of the minister's professional staff who work at Pippy Park being enlisted. The minister responded favourably and I gave him profuse praise and I am really longing for an opportunity to reiterate that praise but I have to wait for some results. Now the minister -

MR. EFFORD: When do you want the opportunity?

MS. VERGE: - at the time, said that he was going to come to Corner Brook and we were going to have lunch, along with some of the people in the Corner Brook area interested in the beautification project but I am still waiting for the luncheon date and I am wondering if the minister is going to come through.

MR. EFFORD: Boy, I better be careful how I answer this one. Any press around?

AN HON. MEMBER: No, it is recorded.

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MS. VERGE: It is all being recorded.

MR. EFFORD: I am coming to Corner Brook in a couple of weeks time.

MS. VERGE: Yes?

MR. EFFORD: Leave it at that.

MS. VERGE: Will I be notified of the offered meeting -

MR. EFFORD: You could very well be.

MS. VERGE: - because seriously, there are people in Corner Brook, business people in Maple Valley and individual citizens, as well as the city, and the city has a planner who is a landscape designer and who has expressed an interest in co-operating to do something to alleviate the eyesore that is there now.

MR. EFFORD: As the hon. member knows, in the construction of any piece of highway, it has to be an eyesore for a period of time. The department has always, and will continue to consult with every area group, in this case the residents of Corner Brook as you clearly outlined, in the proper procedure to the satisfaction of all parties to do the of the area in which we have constructed new roads, because you have the steep inclines and grades out there. Because of that reasoning, we will work with the people in the area to make sure that when the landscaping is done, it's done to the beautification and the satisfaction of all parties interested.

MS. VERGE: Chair, I'd like something more specific. We have a very short growing season, and spring is approaching.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. Could this be a short question? Your time is up.

MS. VERGE: Yes.

Would the minister give me some specifics about how - and he, personally, doesn't necessarily need to be present in Corner Brook to initiate something, but would he give some specifics about how his department, and in particular the people in his department with some specialized knowledge about landscaping - I think he does have some who work for Pippy Park, and who work on the grounds of the park and Confederation Building - how they can be involved in a co-operative effort with the Corner Brook Chamber of Commerce and the Corner Brook City Council.

The Corner Brook planner in particular who, as I mentioned, is a landscape designer, is quite enthusiastic about a co-operative effort to try to beautify what now is a blight on the landscape of what originally was a beautiful part of the Province.

MR. EFFORD: Well if that person - I don't know if it's a he or she; I use the phrase `that person' - is quite enthusiastic about being a part of it, they certainly haven't been enthusiastic enough to contact myself. They have never spoken to me about it, but I have the full confidence -

MS. VERGE: Well, if the minister would outline a procedure I can indicate to people in Corner Brook how they should go about... The minister had promised me that he would come and meet with the committee, and I am still waiting for him to give me the times. He stood me up.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. Your time is up. I think Mr. Manning wanted a couple of questions. You've got one minute.

MR. MANNING: Just a couple of quickies.

Would I be correct in saying that government carries no insurance on their vehicles? Is that correct?

MR. EFFORD: They carry liability insurance on the vehicles. It's an overall policy, one policy. It's one policy to cover all of the vehicles operated by government.

MR. MANNING: Okay.

MR. EFFORD: When you say no insurance, what do you mean?

MR. MANNING: I mean, insurance per vehicle, there's not, is there? I heard something about some accidents that have occurred or something, and people saying -

MR. EFFORD: It's a group policy.

MR. MANNING: So every vehicle is under the one policy?

MR. EFFORD: Oh, yes.

MR. MANNING: In regard to buildings, the same thing with buildings?

MR. EFFORD: Yes, there's an insurance to protect the general public.

MR. MANNING: Okay.

MR. EFFORD: A blanket policy.

MR. MANNING: I will go back, if I could, for just a quick moment concerning the yellow line. This has been a concern in a lot of places, but I travelled down to the States a couple of years ago and there was a kind of light on the highway, some type of reflector.

MR. EFFORD: Reflectors.

MR. MANNING: Yes. Did the department ever consider something like that for Newfoundland, or is it possible? What's the situation with that?

MR. EFFORD: It's been tried here in the Province on one occasion, but again let's go back to the conditions of winter and snow ploughs. Can you imagine having those reflectors on the road? We can't keep the paint there, so we would have a problem keeping the reflectors.

MR. MANNING: That's the reasoning. I just wondered about that, so it has been considered.

That about clues up my questions. I have no problem in saying thanks for the few bucks that you managed to get in -

MR. EFFORD: What?

MR. MANNING: I have no problem in saying thanks for the few bucks. I don't know if I'll be in your fan club, but we'll see what happens next year.

MR. EFFORD: I will be very honest with the hon. member. That was definitely a matter of necessity, for the safety of the people.

MR. MANNING: The reason doesn't matter, it is the end product that matters to me. We will see next year.

Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Manning.

Mr. Dumaresque, do you have any questions?

MR. DUMARESQUE: I would like to move the headings if you would, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you moving those in total?

MR. DUMARESQUE: 1.1.01 to 5.3.02 inclusive.

On motion, Department of Works, Services and Transportation, total heads, carried.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister, and thank you to your staff. Thank you to members of the Committee. I would like a motion to adjourn.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

The Committee adjourned.