Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Nick Careen, M.H.A. (Placentia) substitutes for Fabian Manning, M.H.A. (St. Mary's - The Capes), and Douglas Oldford, M.H.A. (Trinity North) substitutes for William Ramsay, M.H.A. (LaPoile).

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

MR. CHAIRMAN (D. Gilbert): Order, please!

Ladies and gentlemen, before we get into the meeting, there are a few little details we have to take care of. I ask someone to make a motion that we pass the Minutes of the last meeting.

On motion, Minutes adopted as circulated.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Again, before we start, I think we should point out what happens and what we are doing. This meeting is of three-hour duration, and we will decide about 9:45 p.m. if we can finish it off in the three hours. If not, we will adjourn at 10:00 p.m. and carry on again another day, so the people will be given an opportunity to question the minister.

Normally, what happens - this is a Select Committee of the House, so it is appointed and if there are any changes the Clerk has to be notified. I understand Mr. Careen will be sitting in for Mr. Manning tonight, and the Clerk has received the notification of that.

The other thing is, if any of the other members of the House, as I understand it, where this is a Standing Committee, want to come in and take part in this, it is by leave of the Committee. In other words, if the people and the members want to elect anyone to come in and ask questions, they can, but it is at their leave; is that the understanding we have of this?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay.

Normally, at this time, I introduce the Committee and then ask the minister to introduce his officials. I say to the officials, and the minister, when you are asking your officials to speak, please identify yourselves because of the fact that it has to be transcribed later on. In the case of most of the members here, the transcribers have no trouble with their voices because they have heard them speak before, but the officials are not as well known, so if they are asked to speak I ask that they identify themselves to make it easier for transcribing.

Normally, the minister is given fifteen minutes to make an opening statement if he so wishes. If not, he will pass on that and we will go for ten and ten, with ten minutes that the members can ask the questions and the minister will answer in between.

I say to members, give me some indication if you want to speak. You can wave or shout or something, so I will keep the list ahead of time, if you would.

If the minister elects to speak for fifteen minutes to open up, Mr. Fitzgerald, the Vice-Chairman of the Committee and the Opposition critic, will be given fifteen minutes to answer if he so wishes, or he can carry on a question and answer period with the minister for the opening fifteen minutes, if the minister uses his fifteen. If not, it will be ten and ten, and then the members will indicate and we will question back and forth for the ten-minute period when they start. They have ten minutes from the time they start to ask questions and the minister to answer back.

That being said, Mr. Minister, welcome to you and your Committee. You can now introduce them, if you would, and then if you are going to have your opening statement, go ahead.

MR. EFFORD: Gentlemen, on my right is Lew White, Deputy Minister of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. The young gentleman over here is Ian Chaytor, Director of Public Relations for the department; Terry McCarthy, ADM for Transportation; Ramona Cole, Director of Financial Operations; Harold Stone, the Director of Financial Administration and Support Services, and Mr. George Greenland is ADM in the Works side of the department.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, Mr. Minister.

MR. EFFORD: I thought you were going to introduce the people on the Committee.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I will now introduce the Committee for the record. I am David Gilbert, MHA for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir, and Chairman of this Committee.

MR. FITZGERALD: My name is Roger Fitzgerald, MHA for Bonavista South, and I am the Vice-Chair of the Government Services Committee.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am Jack Byrne, MHA for St. John's East Extern.

MR. CRANE: I am John Crane, MHA for Harbour Grace.

MR. WALSH: I am Jim Walsh, MHA for Mount Scio - Bell Island.

MR. CAREEN: I am Nick Careen, MHA for Placentia, replacing Fabian Manning, this evening.

MR. RAMSAY: I am Bill Ramsay, MHA for LaPoile.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to take fifteen minutes to go into a long spiel about the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. I don't feel it is necessary, since most members on the opposite side are familiar with it, especially my critic, the Member for Placentia. I will make just a few remarks.

This is my second year as minister of this department and I want to, in this forum, express appreciation to my staff, and especially those here tonight at the executive level, who have been not my right arm but my right and left arms, because I have done a lot of learning and searching since I went into the department, its having been a totally new field to me. I must say, the first year I had a lot of apprehension about the department and very little understanding, but I think, in the last year I have come to know it fairly well. I still have a lot of learning to do, but in the world of politics and in the world of ministers, you take it one day at a time and you go on from there.

On the executive level, the bureaucratic level, it is a much longer term and that much deeper. They are the individuals who are into the operation, direction and management of the department, and I rely on them, having total confidence in their ability. It is for this reason that I am able to be in the position as minister that I have been for the last two years, working with them for the knowledge that I have gained. You all know that the Department of Works, Services and Transportation comprised two separate departments; now it is a combination of Transportation and Public Works.

Our responsibilities - and I am not going to even begin getting into the responsibilities, it would take me half-an-hour to list individually all the responsibilities of the department. But I guess the service to the people from the Transportation side of it is the thing that is utmost on everybody's mind in the public view. We have made a lot of new policies and taken initiatives within the department over the last year and two things that come to mind that have been very controversial are the abolishment of mandatory registration of motor vehicles and the .05. Another is the photo ID license. I think those three are major things that we have brought in as a department, the three positive initiatives that I feel confident have been working very well and will continue, especially the .05 regulation.

As you know, the Roads for Rail Agreement brings us into - and average spending is approximately $55 million each year, when the then government bought, and I phrase it this way, bought a product, bought the railway from Newfoundland and gave us some $800 million of which we spent approximately $55 million on the Trans-Canada Trunk Road Agreements. We normally spend about $20 million to $25 million provincially on the roads each year, but this year, budgetary allowance allows us approximately $15 million to spend for the 1995 season.

Apart from that, there are a number of other issues that will be ongoing for the year. There is the capital works side of it which is certainly reduced, not only in Transportation but in the Public Works view, there are some ongoing things that I am sure you will all get into the questions of Budget that we will deal with, and any answers that I can't give, the executive is here for support and we will deal with them one at a time.

I see that committee is scheduled for three hours and we would hope that we can be out of here by at least 8:15 or 8:30. So I will conclude and leave it to my good friend on the other side to prepare his questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, in your opening remarks, you referred to a couple of pieces of legislation that you had introduced in the House. I am wondering if you are as adamant now as you were in the beginning when you introduced the legislation, that is, with regard to vehicle inspection? As you are no doubt aware - I am hearing it every day and I know you must be hearing it at least fifty-two times as much as I am hearing it - it has been a very negative piece of legislation. It has caused a lot of people to lose their jobs and I think it was a piece of legislation that was there for the well-being of all of us who travel our highways. Human nature being what it is, I suppose, none of us wants to part with money unless we have to, and we have a tendency to continue to operate something as long as it goes. I am wondering if you are considering or would you consider taking another look at that piece of legislation?

In questioning in the House of Assembly, I think you talked many times about the person who was carrying around his book in his pocket, and I have no doubt that some of that did exist where they were writing out inspection certificates and no inspections were taking place but I think that could have been covered in a completely different way. I don't think you had to bring in such stringent legislation in order to do away with that problem. Even if you had done away with the inspection fee itself, I think that would have looked after that. So I am just wondering, without continuing, if you are taking a second look at it or would you be willing to take another look at it?

MR. EFFORD: Well, my first answer is that I don't believe it is a negative piece of legislation, I think it is a very positive piece. If we were consistent in doing what you are saying or what the garage owners are saying, we would cause that to happen to all highway traffic regulations. In other words, the .05 - we brought in the regulation that it is illegal to drink and drive. It is illegal to operate a motor vehicle in an unsafe condition. So we brought in mandatory - if we kept the mandatory inspection of motor vehicles we would have to say the same thing, before you get into the car you have to go to the police station and take the breathalyser to see if you have been drinking, there is no difference.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, no, you are taking it to the extreme now, Mr. Minister. You know yourself, a lot of people get into their cars and drive and sometimes they are not aware that there is a problem until the problem happens or causes an accident and that is completely different from drinking and driving.

MR. EFFORD: Well, everybody has the option of taking his vehicle to a garage of his choice when he wants to get it serviced for grease and oil changes or whatever other maintenance it requires and he normally would ask the garage owner to check over his vehicle. I don't believe we should be telling the people of this Province, you have to take your vehicle to a garage on a certain day, one time a year and you have to pay a fee to have a mechanic or somebody inspect it. The only people that I am getting any complaints from are the garage owners, the people who are saying they are losing a profit margin through the abolishment of that regulatory mandatory inspection. It is very positive with 99 per cent of them, the remainder of the general public. We have no evidence - and we have been very careful of our highway safety checks - we have no evidence that it is causing any unsafe vehicles to be on the highway and until that evidence is proven to me, I will not change my mind.

MR. FITZGERALD: How do you intend to carry out the inspections? You say that you are going to be carrying them out on the highway itself where people will be stopped and periodically checked. Is that the right assumption?

MR. EFFORD: There is no change, that regulation was always there. When mandatory inspections were in force, roadside inspections were being done by police officers and by the enforcement agencies of Motor Registration. That does not change, it will continue.

MR. FITZGERALD: So people won't be charged as well. They will be given a certain amount of time to correct the deficiencies? They will be expected to have them completed and bring back an inspection form afterwards, and that will satisfy your department?

MR. EFFORD: The normal procedure, as I have found in the past, is, if a person were stopped for minor defects on a car, he would be shown what those minor defects were, and he would be given a forty-eight-hour period - I don't know if that is in all cases, is it, Harold? Sometimes a ticket is given out.

MR. STONE: Sometimes they give tickets, depending on the seriousness of it.

MR. EFFORD: Depending on what's wrong with the car. But roadside inspections today have not changed from what they were five years ago. The enforcement still follows the same procedure.

MR. FITZGERALD: In my district, Mr. Minister, Route 235 is a section of highway that you are no doubt familiar with, and it has been of grave concern to the people there. In fact, it has gotten to the point now that people are looking at blocking off the road out there. I think they have requested several times that you go there to a public meeting, or meet with a group of people. You, being the partisan fellow that you are - and I have no problem with that - have seen fit to go around my office and go to the people involved. I have no problem with that whatsoever, but I would like to see something done with the roadway there.

It is a piece of roadway that was identified - when I got elected in 1993, I think the first trip that I made was up to Works, Services and Transportation in Clarenville, and I met with the superintendent of the depot there. At that time, he indicated to me, that was priority number one on their list, to have some roadwork done on that particular section. I am wondering what your thoughts are on that particular piece of roadway. You keep referring to it as a piece of roadway that is no worse than any other, and the problems that are there are because of the type of weather and winter that we have been experiencing. I can assure you, that is not the case, because it just as bad in the summertime as it is in the wintertime. It is a situation where the road - and I'm not a road engineer or anything, but I think the road was put there at the beginning in a very haphazard way, and the paving, I suppose, was put there in such a way as to please the greatest number of people, and now we are paying the price for it.

The bottom line is, we do have a problem there. Kids are going to school and they are getting sick on the bus. The bus drivers are complaining about damage to their vehicles - the same with private passenger vehicles. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that, or if you have any plans for looking at that particular piece of roadway and giving it some priority.

MR. EFFORD: No, there won't be any work done down there on that section of road this year, I can tell you that for sure. My budget this year is about $15 million. We have already spent about $2.7 million when we called the tenders for the Roads for Rail money, so that leaves us $12.25 million. Therefore, when you try to divide that up among fifty-two districts in the Province, it doesn't give you a whole lot of money to spend on any particular area. I can assure you, while Route 235, in your particular area, and the road to King's Cove are in really bad condition, I can take you to many kilometres of road equally as bad, worse, and where there is no pavement at all. The problem that I have is trying to divide up such a small amount of money into areas where the worst need is. I'm not going to mislead you, I'm going to say no, there won't be any work done down there this year.

MR. FITZGERALD: I guess, taking that for an answer, you are also referring to the roads going out to Tickle Cove and Upper Amherst Cove and those places as well. Because they are equally as bad, if not worse. In fact, some of those roads, I think you would be creating a lot better road if you just took the pavement and tore it up and put it back to a gravel road. At least they would have a different road; they would know what they were travelling on, rather than what they are travelling on there now.

Getting back to the other question, Mr. Minister, the other concern, do you have any intention of going out and meeting with the concerned citizens or their representatives?

MR. EFFORD: Yes I do. I refused to go out before when you, yourself arranged a public meeting and to go down to King's Cove, because I'm not going to be drawn into a political meeting with yourself or anyone else.

MR. FITZGERALD: I didn't arrange the meeting.

MR. EFFORD: I've accepted an invitation from a gentleman down in King's Cove, and when I have the opportunity I'm going down to meet with the people. They have a public meeting planned for this Thursday - I think it is next Thursday...no, this Thursday.

MR. FITZGERALD: This Tuesday or Thursday, the last I heard.

MR. EFFORD: This Thursday. But I'm unable to go down there this Thursday. I have another commitment that I mustn't miss, I have to keep it. I've asked the individuals down there to change it for another week. Whether they will or not, I don't know, but they did say they would block the roads Friday morning if I did not go down Thursday evening. Well, that is their choice. If they block the roads the RCMP will go down and move them aside. I understand the roads are bad and if I had enough money to pave the roads requiring it in all the Province we would do it. The problem is the department does not have the funds to pave all the roads needing it out there and we have to say, no, to a lot of areas. Our job is to keep roads in good condition but we have to have the finances in order to do it, and unfortunately the revenues do not permit it, and the budgetary decisions made by the government just recently, as you in the House of Assembly are aware, limited us to $15 million this year, so that means there are going to be an awful lot of unhappy people in the Province, including Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, I would appreciate it if you would go down. I think if you drove down over the road you would see firsthand that it is probably one of the worst roads in the Province, and I think you will probably see yourself you are wrong. I have done a fair amount of travelling around myself, and not because it is in my district, but I have never seen a section of roadway so bad as that particular piece of road. Like I said, it is the same in the summertime as it is in the winter.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I recognize Mr. Byrne I would like to welcome Mr. Oldford who has replaced Mr. Ramsay on this Committee. The documentation is duly signed so now he is replacing Mr. Ramsay on this Committee.

I now recognize Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, is it fifteen minutes?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ten.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, I will jump right in.

Mr. Minister, you just spoke of the motor vehicle inspections and roadside inspections versus garage inspections. Obviously, a police officer on the roadside cannot do the inspection that a garage would do up on the ramp. Do you think that a roadside inspection is sufficient?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: You do? Then you say it is as up to par as an inspection in a garage?

MR. EFFORD: I did not say that. You asked me if I thought it was sufficient and I said, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: The purpose of a garage inspection, of course, was to pick up mechanical defects and not just minor defects such as headlights, signal lights, and that type of thing, so I have to agree with the Member for Bonavista that the roadside inspection does not do the job and we have vehicles on the road now, I know -

MR. EFFORD: It is not intended to.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, why did you wipe it out then? Was it the intent to put vehicles on the road that are not safe?

MR. EFFORD: We did not wipe out the requirement for you or any individual in this Province to keep their vehicle in a safe driving condition. The law states very clearly that you must keep your vehicle in a safe driving condition, and if you do not, and you are caught by an inspection agency, you will pay the fines for it.

MR. J. BYRNE: How would they be caught?

MR. EFFORD: If you take your car to a garage when you are told, one time during the year, in January or February, whenever it comes up for renewal, what about the other eleven months of the year?

MR. J. BYRNE: Who tells you that?

MR. EFFORD: That is the way it used to be. I am saying in the process there is only one time, so what about the remainder, the other eleven months of the year?

MR. J. BYRNE: But, you said, if you are caught. How would you be caught, if the tie-rod ends, or something like that are shot, how would you be caught with a roadside inspection?

MR. EFFORD: Very simply, if a police officer or highway enforcement officer stops you on the highway and checks your vehicle over, if they have any concerns they will require you to go to a garage and get that vehicle inspected and bring back an inspection slip.

MR. J. BYRNE: But you just said that would not be adequate, that roadside inspection does not compare to a garage inspection, so how would they pick up on it?

MR. EFFORD: You cannot do, as you are saying, on the roadside as you would in a garage, but that roadside inspection enforcement agency, whether it is the police, the RCMP, or the highway traffic highway enforcement agency can require you, if they have any concerns about that car to take your vehicle to a garage and get it properly inspected and bring it back.

MR. J. BYRNE: On what basis would they do that? Because they don't like the colour of your hair, or something like that?

MR. EFFORD: They will check over the vehicle. They can move the vehicle.

MR. J. BYRNE: But you just admitted that is not sufficient.

MR. EFFORD: If you look at a vehicle, a 1994, or 1995, or 1993 or 1992 or whatever, you could repair the vehicle to good condition, but if that vehicle is old and shabby and whatever else from the normal inspections that they have the qualifications to do, because those people are mechanics, the enforcement officers, and they can check over a car, if they have any concerns about it, they can require you - and it happens on many occasions, by the way.

MR. J. BYRNE: You can't tell that by looking at the vehicle. You have to have an inspection. It can depend on the driver, the roads it went over, that type of thing.

MR. EFFORD: The onus is on the individual to keep that vehicle in a safe driving condition.

MR. J. BYRNE: The onus is on the individual for a lot of things that don't happen. I would like to move on, anyway; this is beating a dead horse.

With respect to the photo IDs for your driver's licence, you have a number of areas across the Province, or locations, where people can go to have their pictures taken to put on your driver's licence. Mount Pearl is one here around St. John's. I have had a number of calls from people in my district who live in Pouch Cove, and in particular senior people, older people, and they had some concerns about leaving Pouch Cove and having to drive to Mount Pearl, and maybe have to wait for an hour or so to get their picture taken, and then drive back. You are looking at half a day gone, type of thing, for a senior. Is there any possibility of having a location set up in the Confederation Building for the east end to have pictures taken?

MR. EFFORD: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: Why?

MR. EFFORD: Because it is not necessary. You just made a statement, Mr. Byrne, that people find it inconvenient to drive from Torbay -

MR. J. BYRNE: I never said Torbay.

MR. EFFORD: Wherever.

MR. J. BYRNE: Pouch Cove, I said.

MR. EFFORD: From Pouch Cove to Mount Pearl, I find that a little hard because I can remember a few years ago, and I am not that old; I am only a boy myself, and it used to take us a full day, sometimes two, to come from Port de Grave, which is only now a forty-five minute drive, into St. John's just to get your eyes checked or something, but to drive from Pouch Cove, Torbay or Bay Roberts or anywhere else into St. John's is really not a long period of time. We are not going to put it at the Confederation Building - absolutely not.

MR. J. BYRNE: I never said the facility itself; I said another one, and I never mentioned Torbay; I said the people from Pouch Cove. I am addressing concerns that were brought to me, that I was asked to bring to you. So that is a definite no, no ifs, ands or buts about it.

MR. EFFORD: A definite no; you got that right.

MR. J. BYRNE: The White Hills depot, you know where that is, of course, you have been there?

MR. EFFORD: Do you want to get out of this by 8:30 p.m., or do you want to get at that stuff?

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, I have all kinds of questions. I might be here until twelve o'clock.

MR. EFFORD: Let's get at it, then; come on.

MR. J. BYRNE: The White Hills depot -

MR. EFFORD: I do know where it is.

MR. J. BYRNE: Ruthledge Crescent, you know the situation?

MR. EFFORD: Yes, I know Ruthledge Crescent.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you heard the complaints of the people in the area with respect to the White Hills Depot?

MR. EFFORD: You want to see a video on it?

MR. J. BYRNE: I saw it before you saw it.

MR. EFFORD: Before you were elected, actually.

MR. J. BYRNE: I saw it.

Anyway, did you see the video showing where the hole was excavated in the ground, where they took up the tank at the White Hills depot that was leaking fuel?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Do you think that has any connection with the situation in Ruthledge Crescent?

MR. EFFORD: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: I disagree.

MR. EFFORD: You asked me a question, and I answered it.

MR. J. BYRNE: But what makes you say that?

MR. EFFORD: Because the environmental studies show very clearly that is not the cause of it. Some fuel wasted, spilled out of a fuel tank in the White Hills depot, and you are telling me that caused that problem that they are having in Ruthledge Crescent? Absolutely not.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is just not the tank at the White Hills depot. It is also car wrecks buried up there around that building, also the study that you are saying that is being done now, the Minister of Environment only the other day, yesterday or the day before, in the House of Assembly, mentioned that there was a new study being commissioned by an environmental specialist to look at the whole area, so you are pretty well ruling out any results of that environmental study before it comes in.

MR. EFFORD: What I am ruling out, Sir, is based on the information given to us by a consultant firm that checked out the area of concern where we have a responsibility into the White Hills depot where there is fuel, or the wrecks, as you say. If you want to go back a number of years, I suspect there is a lot more buried in the ground than what Transportation has, as a result of the base that was down there, but that is an environmental issue. We cannot tell you what it is. We are as concerned about it as anybody else, and especially the people living in the area. They have a great concern. I hope somebody soon identifies what the problem is. From the best information that we have, we cannot see and agree that it is caused by the depot at the White Hills.

MR. J. BYRNE: That remains to be seen, I suppose. In last year's Budget, if I can remember correctly, there was a statement made - I'm not sure if it was in the Budget itself or the Budget Speech - but it referred to - there was just one line there saying that the government is going to accelerate the takeover of connector roads by the municipalities.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, you can remember. I didn't see it in the Budget this year, or anything referring to that. Has that policy been changed or are you planning on doing that? I mean connector roads - for example -

MR. EFFORD: I think what you are referring to is that any roads that are in the area of municipalities, that government is going to be working with municipalities, and the municipalities assuming responsibility of those roads. I think that is what you are referring to.

MR. J. BYRNE: The connector roads between communities that are now the responsibility of -

MR. EFFORD: Not the connector roads between communities. Those roads which are in the area of a municipality, within the boundaries of the municipality.

MR. J. BYRNE: Within the boundaries, travelling through, yes. For example, the Marine Drive leaving Logy Bay, going through Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove, right on down through Torbay, Flatrock, that type of a road?

MR. EFFORD: If that is within the boundaries of a municipality, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is in the municipalities, yes.

MR. EFFORD: Sure.

MR. WHITE: The one you are talking about is in the municipality of Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove. We have talked to the council down there and it has expressed an interest in taking over that road if we resurface it and bring it up to a standard. Okay?

MR. J. BYRNE: I'm quite familiar with the details of that.

MR. WHITE: Yes. That will happen if we can come up with the money to do what we have agreed with the council that it wants done.

MR. J. BYRNE: Because when I saw that in the Budget last year I went to the town of Logy Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove and I suggested that they approach the department on that issue because I figured in due course it would be down loaded anyway, and that we would work out a deal while the opportunity is there. I went to the town of Flatrock, same thing. I went to Pouch Cove and Torbay, same thing. That is why I'm asking -

MR. EFFORD: They told me you didn't have anything to do with it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Byrne, your time has expired. I recognize Mr. Fitzgerald again.

MR. FITZGERALD: How about my colleague for Placentia?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I didn't see your hand.

AN HON. MEMBER: No, he is replacing Mr. Manning.

MR. FITZGERALD: He is replacing Mr. Manning, so he would be next.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: I just recognize whoever identifies himself as wanting to speak. I'm recognizing you now, and if you don't want to I will give it to your friend.

AN HON. MEMBER: No problem.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm sure he will be recognized in due time.

On page 59, Mr. Minister, of the Estimates, 2.1.05, Snow and Ice Control.

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: Salaries. I notice in the Budget 1994-1995 it was $10,484,400. On page 59.

MR. EFFORD: Got you.

MR. FITZGERALD: It was budgeted at $10,484,400, and it came out right to the exact cent on the revision there. I guess the revision was put up to correspond to that. I notice this year it was brought to $10,182,200. When I look at that as salaries, am I thinking right when I think of the salaries paid to all government employees, like plough operators, loader operators, and all this kind of thing?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: So in spite of all the bad weather that we've had this year and the road conditions that we all complained about I suppose, or most of us complained about from to time, you were right on budget.

MR. EFFORD: Good department.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, it is not a good department. Because I think it is probably a reflection of the type of snow clearing that we've all witnessed and we've experienced with your office being called many times. I think it is probably a reflection that even though you never did admit that there was anything cut back or that there was anything taken away, I got a funny feeling that there might have been a lot taken away because as you have admitted many, many times this year has been certainly, certainly much, much worse than other years.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Fitzgerald, let's be reasonable and if we are going to make statements let's make them with some accuracy. We had one of the worse winters that we have had for the last fifteen or twenty years. I, myself have had the privilege of driving to and from St. John's on a daily basis. Do you know there was not one occasion this year that I could not or did not get into St. John's? I just do not agree and don't understand where you are coming from to say that we are not keeping our highways clear.

Everywhere I go across the Province, except for the minority, the complainers who phone in to the open line shows which is about .0002 of the population and that is a very, very small percentage of the population. Other than that, we keep the roads in excellent condition considering the snowfalls that we have had this year, the many changes in climatic conditions, the staff have done an excellent job. Because the weather is not the problem with our staff it is the people complaining all the time that always puts them under excessive pressure and stress. They normally would not have this stress if they could get up in the morning and do their jobs without having to listen to those damn open line shows. So I don't agree with you that our roads are not kept open. I think that we have been doing an excellent job under the circumstances, under the weather conditions that we have had and the complaints from the very, very few people -

MR. FITZGERALD: I am not saying that they were not kept open, Mr. Minister, but I can assure you that I do a fair amount of travelling too and I do it a lot further than going to the overpass on Roaches Line and then branching out for another twenty-five or thirty miles. I have left here many times this winter from St. John's and it was snowing when I left, probably foolish to leave, and have never seen a snow plough from here to Musgravetown, 300 miles. I have not seen a piece of snow clearing equipment and now I suppose I know why because -

MR. EFFORD: Yes, you had your eyes closed.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes boy, indeed I did. No there were none ahead either but getting back to that Mr. Minister, I must say that you were right on there and you must have a good department because those figures certainly balanced out.

MR. EFFORD: Excellent department.

MR. FITZGERALD: Considering the amount of overtime, I am wondering what your overtime cost was this year as far as snow clearing and ice removal are concerned?

MR. EFFORD: I don't have a figure for you now, we will check it out and if you need the figure we will get it for you but there was certainly an amount of overtime this year, more than last year. As I have already said in answer to your last question, it was because of the extreme weather we had this year that there was overtime and if you need the exact figures we can get it for you.

MR. FITZGERALD: I remember going into one depot one day, in fact it was in my mates district, and at that particular time, that was the end of January, their overtime up until that particular time was in excess of $60,000 from one small depot.

MR. EFFORD: Who told you that?

MR. FITZGERALD: It was posted on the board, Sir.

MR. EFFORD: Oh, is that right?

MR. FITZGERALD: $60,000 for one depot and that is why I am wondering why this figure here balanced out so accurately.

MR. EFFORD: Are you sure that was posted on the board?

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Sir, I am sure. In excess of $60,000 up until the end of January.

MR. EFFORD: What's wrong with that?

MR. FITZGERALD: That is why I am wondering why this figure here balanced out so accurately, that is all. I am not saying anything. I am just wondering but -

MR. WHITE: Can I answer here? We are still in the winter season, it is not over yet. This is a projection of what our salaries will be for this winter. These figures were done some three or four weeks ago, I guess, in preparation for the Budget so it was our forecast, based on what we had spent up to that time and to the end of the year.

The other thing I would like to add here. If you look down another couple there you will notice that we are estimating to spend $10.94 million this year on Supplies. That is sand and salt. That is the highest that figure has ever been in our history. So we may be down on salaries a bit but the materials that we apply are higher than they've ever been. This is the most salt that was ever purchased in this year.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, I often wonder - and I'm sure there must be an excuse for it - because I'm sure that you would like to see people working as well as I would. With the many people out there unemployed today, and quite capable of driving snow ploughing equipment and what have you, I wonder why you don't look at the possibility of hiring extra people in the wintertime. You always say you are going to put on another shift.

MR. EFFORD: Who said that?

MR. FITZGERALD: That is always said within the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. There is another shift going on.

MR. EFFORD: No.

MR. FITZGERALD: We are putting on a night shift. Well, it is the common talk among the people who work there.

MR. EFFORD: You said it was the common talk within the department. It is not the common talk within the department.

MR. FITZGERALD: Within the department by the people who work there. I've heard it many times. We are putting our second shift on. You do. Because you take the day shift and then you put on a night shift, so that is the other shift that you put on. Or else one group comes to work at 4:00 a.m. or 5:00 a.m. and there is another group that comes in at 3:00 p.m. or 4:00 p.m.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Well, it is. They are not creating jobs, because what they do is they split up the day shift. It is not two shifts as such: you just split up the day shift, that is what you do. I'm wondering instead of paying out all this overtime if the department has considered hiring temporary people in the wintertime -

MR. EFFORD: No.

MR. FITZGERALD: - rather than paying out in excess of $60,000 in this one depot alone up until the end of January. Overtime I guess is at time-and-a-half, and if you have people on as casuals you don't have to make them part of the pension plan or pay out all the other benefits. I'm wondering why.

MR. EFFORD: If you have any familiarity, and I will assume that you have, with collective agreements and the unions, then you know very well the cost of putting a second or third shift in place today in the system. It is a matter of dollars and cents and trying to utilize the amount of money you have to spend. I guess the best bang for your buck is the simplest way of putting it.

If we did not have the massive debt that we have in this Province and we had those monies to put in, instead of paying it out in loans and interest and putting out in services, then yes, we would be able to have more people in the department. What the department has been doing over the years, certainly long before I got there, is try to manage a system with the amount of money that it has to give the best service to the people that they have to serve, not only during the winter, summer and winter, twelve months of the year.

To put on two shifts would cost about two to three times as much as the shift we have now because of the collective agreements. The Deputy Minister just passed me this note. This single shift service has been on since 1981. I said it was long before I went with the department; actually, long before I got into politics. Here is simple economics. We don't have the money to do what people want done, and you are asking, expecting to be done. If you think that taking taxpayers dollars and hiring on people is a way of creating jobs, then make no wonder we are in the mess we are in.

MR. FITZGERALD: So you feel that it is much better to pay time-and-a-half than to hire people on at straight time, obviously, in the way you are expressing yourself. You also must think there is nothing wrong with people working twenty hours a day and having four hours off and going back and working another twenty hours.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, and also there is certainly nothing wrong with people when the sun shines and four and five and six and seven days at a time they don't go out at all in many instances.

MR. FITZGERALD: People are -

MR. EFFORD: When I gave my opening remarks I talked about the confidence that I have in the staff of the department. As the minister, I'm not involved in the day-to-day - and Alice has done the financial operations. Ramona, sitting behind me, and her staff, do those financial analyses; they have done that and, yes, it is much more cost effective to operate in the manner in which you are operating. When the need arises people do work extra hours, but then, there are a lot of occasions where they only work their regular hours. Lots of times during the winter they are doing very little because the snow doesn't fall and the rain doesn't freeze, and they have just a normal day's work of attendance at the department.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Fitzgerald, your time has elapsed. I now recognize Mr. Careen and I have Mr. Byrne as next (inaudible) anyone else.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Gilbert.

Mr. Minister, the roads in our Province - now, last year we were here talking about spreading out pavement as far as we could to get as much mileage as possible with the bit of money we have. I drive a fair amount, not only in my district but all over, and this past number of weeks I have noticed pavement down in certain places. I am not mentioning whose districts they are, but someone should be horse-whipped for the pavement that they got paid for. Now, I don't know at this - who can I blame? Is it the inspectors or the people or the contractors?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: No, I am not blaming God for anything because it's only insurance companies that bring God into stuff and we are not in the insurance business. I saw, the other day, pavement in the middle of the road beaten up - I would say there wasn't a half-inch of pavement in that particular area. I am not exaggerating and I am not here to make any bones about it. I don't know if it is true or not, but I heard that the minister, himself experienced a bit of trouble up around Glenwood or Gander. I don't know if that is true or not.

MR. EFFORD: False.

MR. CAREEN: We are having that out here just outside of St. John's, where you can take a good bounce and that could be - but I am saying, if it is spread out thin, that is one thing, but if it is going into something that is crooked, that is another thing.

MR. EFFORD: What do you mean by something is crooked?

MR. CAREEN: Well, I am just saying - I mean, if - you have to have a certain amount of pavement on it. Whatever the skim of pavement is in it, I wouldn't think it would be a half-inch. Would you?

MR. EFFORD: No.

MR. CAREEN: It has to be a certain minimum.

MR. EFFORD: Only in a Tory district, that's all.

MR. CAREEN: Yes, well, that wasn't a Tory district. It wasn't in Placentia district. But, I mean, someone got paid for it, Sir, and someone got a good dollar out of it. Will you be concerned about that kind of stuff if - I am not saying `if', something is going on.

MR. EFFORD: The normal thickness, Mr. Careen, is about an inch-and-a-half of pavement.

MR. CAREEN: Yes.

MR. EFFORD: The problem that you have is what I have just answered in answering other questions, that is, you have a certain amount of money to do an awful lot of roadwork with. You have thousands and thousands of kilometres of road and the budget is shrinking smaller and smaller. I don't know how many years ago, Lew, it used to be $40 million a year.

MR. WHITE: Seven or eight years ago.

MR. EFFORD: Seven or eight years ago, our department used to get $40 million a year to do the necessary road maintenance, grading and construction. Now, this year, it is down to $15 million and that is because of the massive deficit problems and the debt problem that this Province is encountering. So give us $40 million and we can do a lot more paving. What they are trying to do now is stretch out those dollars to serve the needs of the people and the requirements and that is pretty difficult to do but it is about a inch-and-a-half of pavement.

Now, the other problem we have - and I wasn't joking when you talked about the bumps and stuff in the roads - we do have three seasons in any one day, climatic conditions, and those extreme frost conditions, caused by mother nature, and we don't have a whole lot of control over that. Now, as long as roads are here in this Province, as long as Newfoundlanders are here, we are going to experience those frozen bumps and cracks in the pavement. That occurs in the area in which we live and we have to put up with that.

MR. CAREEN: I am not arguing with you, Sir. You know, to a large extent, I am agreeing with you. But I mean, in some cases we have seen pavement ruptured, and that pavement where it is ruptured, torn up is not very thick.

MR. EFFORD: Are you actually saying you are going around with your measuring tape and measuring that?

MR. CAREEN: No, I said: I mean, if it is an inch-and-a-half, you can tell the difference in an inch-and-a-half and something else that seems a lot less. I am hearing about the concerns from different people in different districts.

I will let you recover, Minister. (Inaudible) that your pocket knife or are you just glad to see me?

I ask your officials and yourself, Minister, are there many complaints from across this Province about slipshod paving?

MR. EFFORD: No. I said earlier and if you - look, I have talked about this and he and the department's public relations director is here tonight to verify this.

They do a monitoring of the Open Line shows; there are a couple of them, one on in the morning and one on at night and if you monitor those shows and listen to the number of calls that come in, compared to the population - and we call them the vocal minority - We had an instance here in St. John's on the Outer Ring Road with which you are also familiar, twenty-five or thirty people kicked up one heck of a racket for a number of years and that's what? - 150,000, 175,000 people living within the St. John's area, 275,000 living on the Southern Shore and the Avalon Peninsula. So you get a few calls, but some people feed on the negative and if the negative wants to fill it up - but the minority is doing it and we don't pay a lot of attention because those things are going to happen. It is not going to change either the financial picture or the climatic conditions.

MR. CAREEN: Okay, Minister. I saw a program on tv a short while ago and was mentioning it to some mates of mine and they said it had been on some months before. I ask your officials, an extrusion product that someone developed on the mainland -

MR. EFFORD: A what?

MR. CAREEN: An extrusion, he has it perfected that it can be used for pavement where you use tires and whatever else. Have your officials any information on that, please, and would it be cheaper if we could adopt the same thing here?

MR. EFFORD: We had a couple of people in to the department the other day who gave me a brief demonstration of it, and what I had asked them to do, was, to set up a presentation here in the city that they could invite all the players and give them a full day's presentation or whatever but I think - Terry, do you have any information it?

MR. McCARTHY: Well there is a lot of -

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you please identify yourself?

MR. McCARTHY: There are some provinces and a number of states in the United States that were experimenting with using old tires, cutting up and shredding them and using them in the asphalt. The latest I heard is that in the States now, they have put a moratorium on using the old tires. It started not as an asphalt need but as a possible solution to an environmental problem in the disposal of old tires. They have stopped now because they think it creates more problems than they are solving, in that, if you put old tires in it you can't recycle the asphalt anymore because you can't heat it up anymore with the rubber in it. So there are a lot of new products and so on coming out and we keep abreast of it and you know, we are doing some experimenting ourselves.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Alright, I will now recognize Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, you mentioned just now that you figure about .0002 of the population are complaining? Well, I tell you, you are doing a good job, because according to what I have here, you got about eight complaints for the year, which is not too bad. You also mentioned a few minutes ago that about eight years ago there was $40 million for road paving and now it is down to $15 million.

MR. EFFORD: That's right.

MR. J. BYRNE: Would that have anything to do with the minister probably not being demanding enough about keeping money in the till for transportation?

MR. EFFORD: No, that is silly. It is silly.

The problem, very clearly, is that the Tories were in power for seventeen years and they left us with a $7 billion deficit, $585 million in interest. That has all gone to the Japanese and the Swiss people, so we just don't have enough money.

MR. J. BYRNE: It is all our fault really.

MR. EFFORD: It is all your fault.

MR. J. BYRNE: Now, back to the connector roads.

MR. EFFORD: That is better.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to Logy Bay - Middle Cove - Outer Cove, it was I who went to them and asked them to come to the department. I wanted to highlight a couple of roads down that way, one is the Marine Drive. I don't know if you have driven over it lately?

MR. EFFORD: Yes. It is a nice place to drive in the nighttime, actually.

MR. J. BYRNE: There are a good many spots down there to haul into.

The Marine Drive, itself is in really poor shape. When tourists come to the Province the first thing they talk about is taking the scenic Marine Drive and what have you. The WindGap Road in Flatrock is absolutely pathetic; it is to the point now where it is dangerous, and on the Bauline Line itself. I would encourage the minister and the deputy minister to take a serious look at coming to an agreement with the municipalities down that way and putting some money down there, because that district has been seriously neglected with respect to capital expenditure on roads. There has been some maintenance, yes, not a lot, but enough to get by on. That is what has happened there this past number of years, so I am trying to encourage you to spend some money down there.

You don't even have to comment on that because I know the answer is, it is a Tory district. Right?

MR. EFFORD: Exactly. You've got it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Anyway - Budget 1995. I am trying to save the government money here, by the way. If you take the overall picture into consideration you would know that. Page 2 of the Budget 1995 -

MR. EFFORD: I don't have the small book.

AN HON. MEMBER: That's alright. He will read it for you.

MR. J. BYRNE: "Works, Services and Transportation. The re-organization of the department which started in 1994-'95 will be completed in 1995-'96." Can you comment on that with respect to how many jobs will be gone in that department in the re-organization?

MR. EFFORD: I am not prepared to comment on the number of jobs that are going to be lost, or if there are going to be any at all in 1995-'96. The department has ongoing re-organization on a daily basis. The book you are reading there states very clearly that what started a few years ago will be continuing this year. When those decisions are finalized, which will be later on this year, then I will be making the information available to the public.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, there will be job losses?

MR. EFFORD: I didn't say that. The one thing I don't want to do is to cause any unnecessary unrest among the people working within the department. That is something nobody wants to do, and once the word gets out there, it gets inflated and sensationalized by the news media, gets blown out of proportion, and then everybody working within the department has a fear of losing their job. Morale is bad enough now and I am not going to add to it, and I ask the hon. member to treat it in the same manner.

MR. J. BYRNE: The next section, says "A major effort will be undertaken to enhance the signage on the Provinces main highways." Can you make some comment on that?

MR. EFFORD: You are looking at him, the major effort.

MR. J. BYRNE: You are the sign?

MR. EFFORD: The department has developed a new signage policy, and we are aware of the need to have a signage policy right across this Province. Number one, it is being slowly downgraded every year because there wasn't sufficient money to, I guess, keep up a status quo. Number two is the demand of the tourism needs of the day and the future. We are putting this year about $900,000 new money into the signage policy right across the Province. Hopefully, that will continue for the next several years until we get the signage brought up to date to meet the needs of tourism in the Province.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Pardon? Yes, and they will be up to the standard size as a national policy on the signage and it will be much larger. You can see some now on the Trans-Canada that has been built, made to comply with today's national regulations. Wherever there is new Trans-Canada four-laning and improvements to the Trans-Canada, new signs have been put up. Similar signs are going to be put all over the Province.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the signage regulations and the compliance, if a person were to start a business (inaudible) -

MR. EFFORD: No, that is a different one.

MR. J. BYRNE: Different altogether?

MR. EFFORD: What we are talking here in this -

MR. J. BYRNE: Is strictly highway signs corrections.

MR. EFFORD: I am responsible and the department is responsible for highway signage. If you are talking about tourism signage or you are talking about municipality, then you have to address that in another area, but that is not what you are referring to there.

MR. J. BYRNE: So there will be no amalgamation of departments (inaudible) have consistent type signs for everything?

MR. EFFORD: You can't. Highway signage is totally different from the commercial signs.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible) says $81,200,000 has been provided for the Province's highways.

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MR. J. BYRNE: Eighty-one million two hundred thousand dollars has been provided for the Province's highways. Can you give me what the figure was last year?

MR. EFFORD: Where do you see that figure, $81 million?

MR. CRANE: It is in that little book.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, you are talking about the Roads for Rail and the -

MR. J. BYRNE: Everything. So I would imagine that is all-encompassing. I just want to compare that to last year.

MR. EFFORD: Fifty-five million dollars of that is the Roads for Rail agreement. The normal amount that we used to spend on the highways - last year we spent $24 million. That is in this year's budget. This year we are spending $15 million, so that is $60 million.

MR. J. BYRNE: Twenty-six, it would be here.

MR. EFFORD: Some of that money is into the property acquisition, like where we are four-laning or building new highways we have to buy properties, so all of that money - So there is $55 million in the Roads for Rail, $15 million under the provincial money -

WITNESS: That is $70 million.

MR. EFFORD: That is $70 million. There is $4 million under the SHIP program for Labrador -

MR. J. BYRNE: Seventy-four million dollars.

MR. EFFORD: - 50-50 monies, which is $8 million, and then there is $5 million in property acquisition. That comes out to about the amount of money.

MR. J. BYRNE: A little bit more.

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Eighty-three million dollars.

It says the Province will be assuming the ferry services currently being operated by Marine Atlantic on the South Coast and the White Bay service. I wonder if you could give me a few words with respect to the $55 million. It was so much last year and so much this year, I believe.

MR. EFFORD: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: And it is - wait now, let me finish, then you can comment on it, okay? Because I wouldn't want to interrupt you. Fifty-five million dollars - I was under the impression that so much of that money that was allotted this year, $30 million or something, is going into the Budget to help balance the Budget this year. Now, with respect to the ferry service, once we make this agreement, wasn't that the ferry services guarantee with respect to the Terms of Union, or during Confederation, and will the service -I know the answer before I ask you, I know what you are going to say - will the service decrease? (Inaudible) not go into as many stops or into as many bays. Again, and I've been on this kick the past eight or ten years, if the service would decrease on the South Coast with respect to the ferry service, are we kind of forcing resettlement here?

MR. EFFORD: My god, where did you get your information?

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible) -

MR. EFFORD: First of all, it is not under the Constitution, it is not under the Terms of Union.

MR. J. BYRNE: The ferry service is not.

MR. EFFORD: No, the South Coast ferry service.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

MR. EFFORD: And I can assure you of that.

MR. J. BYRNE: Just the Gulf?

MR. EFFORD: Just the Gulf. Secondly, we are giving a major increase in service to all the residents on the South Coast. We are giving them six days a week service to the nearest road link. Now, I think that is a major improvement, when you can François and be back again in the evening, Grey River, LaPoile and Rencontre. To say that is a decrease in service, it's a major -

MR. J. BYRNE: Is it going into the same number of communities?

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MR. J. BYRNE: Is it going into the same number of communities?

MR. EFFORD: No, that is ridiculous to expect. How could you take a ferry and leave François and go into six or seven different communities? To the nearest road link, the same as anybody living in Fogo Island, Change Island, Bell Island, Long Island, Little Bay Islands, it is the same service that people would expect. What the people wanted up there was to get out of their community on a daily basis. They asked for that service, a much improved service, and they will be getting that. By the way, that is agreed upon, so it is not `if' it goes in place; it will go in place, and when the Marine Atlantic normal summer season starts, which is June 15, we are hoping to have all tenders called and the boats all ready to take over and provide the people with a much, much improved service. So to say or to leave the impression that it is going to be a downgrading is unfair, because it is not close to accurate.

MR. J. BYRNE: Are the same size boats and that type of thing going in, and every community will have access every day?

MR. EFFORD: They will have the boats to be able to satisfy the needs. We visited and talked to every one of the communities down there, and the boats that will be there will be able to carry up to about forty passengers, with a four ton crane on, and they will be able to carry the freight that is required to go back and forth on a daily basis to those communities.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, the cost that was incurred this year in snow clearing in community councils, something new that was taken over, some community councils in my area, I know, that put work out on tender and it came back at an exorbitant price that they couldn't afford, and your department went in there and looked after the snow clearing this year, as they have in other years, and I would assume, with the new policy, that they will be getting a bill, if they do not already have one, for the number of hours and the amount of time that was spent there. What is going to happen when those bills are sent, and I know right now you are not going to be able to collect the money? What happens?

MR. EFFORD: Roger, if a community council finds itself in a difficult financial position, the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs told them very clearly last year that they could submit their financial statement to the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs and he would take a look at it, if they find themselves in that type of situation, but they would have to prove to the municipal minister that they cannot do it, and then he would consider helping them out, but we have had no problems to date. I don't know how many communities are asking us to do it, and I don't know how many are going out and contracting their own - a substantial number of communities have done it - but I can assure you that there was a lot of concern about it last September or October, but over the winter months I haven't had any calls, so we will wait and see what happens over the next couple of months.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. Mr. Minister, do you have any kind of a figure on how much money your department saved by closing down certain depots, as you did last year, in the summer months and then reverting back there in the winter months for snow clearing and that sort of thing? You don't have to be accurate.

MR. WHITE: In the vicinity of $1 million.

MR. FITZGERALD: Approximately $1 million?

MR. WHITE: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: So there is no doubt -

MR. WHITE: And that was management salaries.

MR. FITZGERALD: So it is, no doubt, a policy that you will be continuing.

MR. EFFORD: Whether we will be opening any more depots?

MR. FITZGERALD: No, I say it is a policy that you will be continuing; those depots will be closed down in the summer months -

MR. EFFORD: Oh, definitely.

MR. FITZGERALD: And opened in the winter months.

MR. EFFORD: Well, the department is undergoing reorganization, as was stated there to the MHA for St. John's East Extern, so there will be no change in that. I don't know what is going to happen in the future, but wherever the need is going to arise to make changes and close more depots, as more and more highways are built, and better roads are built, then that will take place over time.

MR. FITZGERALD: Back some time ago I think it was your department had put a $1 surcharge on a driver's licence - I think it was a driver's licence, or a car registration; Mr. Hussey is not here, and he would probably know for sure - in order to make people, or make your department, gain control over car wrecks so people would be responsible for them? It is something that hasn't happened a lot - I know it was a dollar in the beginning. I don't know if it was dropped or if it was continued or whatever. It was a good idea, I think it was an excellent idea, and maybe it should be brought up with the Department of Environment. There is still one hell of a lot of car wrecks out around there and in through the trees and in people's gardens. I wonder if you considered doing anything with a surcharge on a driver's licence or a motor registration to continue to do that or to try to hold those people responsible to see that their car wrecks are disposed of in appropriate places?

MR. EFFORD: No, because a couple of years ago government brought in new legislation and rules. The Department of Environment is responsible, actually, for that, to enforce the law. It is incumbent upon municipalities - you, me, everybody else, where we see a car wreck to report it to the proper authorities if it is off-highway, and it can be identified by a serial number or a licence plate number or whatever. No, I wouldn't consider doing that because the new rules and legislation that were brought in recently were certainly addressing the car wrecks.

I can tell you from where I live and my area out there I've seen substantial and major improvement in getting rid of the car wrecks. I think in the hon. member's district from Placentia somebody moved in there now who will be -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Yes. They purchase the car wrecks and they truck them out and ship them out.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Right. So it is happening. But you are going to find in off-highway places that are not commonly visited by the (inaudible) if the hon. member sees them in his own area, or any other area, you report it to the proper authorities. They are only too glad to get it out - because people are making money on that now.

MR. FITZGERALD: On page 61 of the Estimates, Mr. Minister, Capital, 2.2.06, under Purchased Services there. It shows that there was $5,000 budgeted, $359,000 revised, and it is up to another $300,000 this year. I wonder if you could give a brief explanation.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, that is the money we have for the new salt sheds. We have to build two new salt sheds this year so that $300,000 is to build the two.

MR. FITZGERALD: Two new salt sheds.

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. On page 62 of the same book, 2.2.07, Purchased Services again. It was budgeted for $60,000, revised to $55,000, and this year you have an estimate of $310,000 for Alterations - Leased Accommodations. Is that government buildings or is it - well, it is leased accommodations so I guess it is not government buildings.

MR. WHITE: I will answer that one. The Purchased Services is the rental of the buildings that are going to be used for this new one-stop-shopping program that government has introduced. That is what that is. New rentals.

MR. FITZGERALD: On page 66, 3.2.03, Improvement and Construction - Provincial Roads. You had budgeted $105,000 - I wonder if Route 235 was here; no, it couldn't have been, because it is Salaries - and it was revised for $5,000 and then $10,000.

MR. EFFORD: That is Salaries.

MR. FITZGERALD: That is Salaries. Where was the big drop there? You know, $105,000 was budgeted and you spent $5,000. Lay offs?

MR. WHITE: I can answer that one. In the bigger numbers, the $13.6 million that is shown there, these are the contracts that were done. The staff was charged off to the contracts. Essentially, really the Salaries and the Purchased Services could be combined into one. Because it really is the engineering staff on the projects, okay? There is no reduction as such, it is just a charge back to the construction.

MR. EFFORD: When you go out and call a contract on a piece of highway construction or research or whatever, there is engineering staff out there so what the deputy minister is saying, instead of separating it into salaries and capital, it is all in the $13,602,000.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. Down in the next one, 3.2.04. $400,000 budgeted for Transportation and Communications and $252,000 spent, and up to $400,000 again this year; I am wondering, is that work that was delayed and brought forward, Transportation and Communications again?

MR. WHITE: That's travel expenses and is really a block amount there of the $400,000. The actual amount that we spent was $252,000, the other things would be charged back into the Purchase Services when they are used on a particular project.

MR. FITZGERALD: So, would that be, Mr. White, 3.2.06 on the following page where there was nothing budgeted in '94-'95, $6,780,000 spent and the estimates for '95-'96 is $3,725,000 Purchase Services again, 3.2.06?

WITNESS: That's the federal initiative.

MR. EFFORD: That's the new program that we talked about earlier, 50-50 cost shared with the federal government, so last year, that's what we spent down in Labrador, wasn't it? That came after the Budget last year. It was an agreement we worked out with the federal government after the Budget was announced in '94-'95.

MR. FITZGERALD: Did you say it was $55 million spent so far in the Roads for Rails Agreement or just $55 million -

MR. EFFORD: No, that's just spent on an annual basis.

MR. FITZGERALD: On an annual basis.

MR. EFFORD: It is approximate, it could be $50 million, $52 million but it is around $55 million each year.

MR. FITZGERALD: Does the provincial government have total control of where this money is spent?

MR. EFFORD: Well, we put together the recommendations and it has to have approval from the provincial government, but pretty well in all cases, yes, they don't change their rules where the money is going to be spent; when the department makes a recommendation, they go along with it.

MR. FITZGERALD: So do you make your suggestions year by year or do you have a five-year plan or a three-year plan?

MR. EFFORD: Yes. The department has a plan now until the year 2003. I am not saying that something won't change from year to year but they have, on each road that needs to be done, and in your particular case the Bonavista Highway, the Trans-Canada, the Trunk Roads Agreement, the bypass roads, there is a plan in place until the year 2003 because that is when the agreement runs out.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Your time is up Mr. Fitzgerald.

I had Mr. Oldford down but he is out so I will now recognize Mr. Byrne. I think when we are finished with Mr. Byrne's questioning we will go for a little break. I understand the Clerk has set up coffee in the government members common room so anyone can go and have a coffee and a break at that time.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is my last shot at it I believe.

MR. EFFORD: Unless we are ready to clue up we can stay an extra five minutes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MR. EFFORD: We can stay an extra five minutes if we are ready to clue up.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, it won't take me much longer.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well I have Mr. Careen down, so if you want to carry on and clue up, I am quite happy with that.

WITNESS: I have a couple of questions at the moment but, no rush.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, I will go on. I will get some of the personnel involved now, maybe.

Under Road Maintenance, Section 2.1.01, Transportation and Communications; you had $95,700 in, spent $131,700 and $152,500 budgeted this year. Why such a drastic increase this year, what was budgeted and spent, and what is the increase for next year?

MR. EFFORD: That's for travel.

MR. J. BYRNE: For whom?

MR. EFFORD: For staff in the department. I can tell you it is not the minister because he doesn't like travelling.

MR. J. BYRNE: No, I know, but why such a drastic increase?

MR. EFFORD: Why? Because it is a requirement. When you are doing work in the department from all over Newfoundland and Labrador the staff has to travel.

MR. J. BYRNE: I understand that, but you had budgeted $95,000; you spent $131,000 - which is $36,000 over - and now it has gone to $152,000; so why the extra spending in transportation if there is such a serious situation with balancing the budget and all the cutbacks?

MR. EFFORD: Well, we are given a budget of x number of millions of dollars on an annual basis, and monies do change and move from one subhead to another depending on the need, but if there is a requirement to send staff across the Province for different reasons - emergencies, or whatever the conditions demand, you have to send a staff out. You are talking about $152,000 not $152 million.

MR. J. BYRNE: Hang her down, now, $152,000 in that section.

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: What about the next section down there, which is $666,000; and the next one down is more, and -

MR. EFFORD: Hold on, now. The next one, we budgeted $555,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, and you spent $620,000 and now it is up to $666,000.

MR. EFFORD: But at the end of the year, when this whole book is all put together, we live within budget.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, that remains to be seen.

The next section, 2.1.03, Traffic Engineering and Signs, property, furnishings and equipment, section 07, $15,000 budgeted, nothing spent, and $15,000 budgeted again. What are you planning on buying?

MR. EFFORD: That is an amount budgeted for the traffic counters that are used on the highway.

MR. J. BYRNE: The what?

MR. EFFORD: The traffic counters. The department didn't have any reason to buy any this year, and it has budgeted that same amount for next year. Whether it is going to be bought or not remains to be seen. It is very efficient, I think. You just said that up there we overspent, but down here we didn't spend.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, that is good; excellent, perfect.

Section 2.1.04, Maintenance and Repairs, section 06, $791,000 budgeted, $710,000 spent, and you have $897,000 budgeted this year. You were under budget this year, 1994-'95, yet you need to go up over $100,000 next year.

MR. EFFORD: Well, again you are talking about the maintenance and repairs for the summer maintenance program, and the estimations that the department has made that they will require to spend $897,000 for 1995-'96 may very well be the same type of thing that happened last year. They budgeted $791,000 and spent $710,000. To say that is going to be spent...

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, then, why would you not just budget $791,000 again, if you were under budget this year?

MR. EFFORD: Because the department has estimated that the amount of work they are going to do this year requires them to spend $897,000. Now, a lot of conditions may change.

MR. WHITE: We just told you earlier, we are down on our capital program, and I am sure we will hit that $897,000 this year because most of that will be to purchase asphalt for pothole patching, resurfacing, and what have you.

MR. J. BYRNE: Section 10, grants and subsidies, you had budgeted $279,000; you spent $279,000 and have $186,000 in this year, so you are -

MR. EFFORD: I guess we are going to give out less grants and subsidies this year.

MR. J. BYRNE: What are those grants and subsidies for?

MR. EFFORD: Those are the ones for the city, aren't they?

MR. WHITE: Most of that is a grant to the City of St. John's for when they took over the roads down in the Goulds with the expansion. We were obligated to continue the maintenance for a five-year period. Instead of doing that ourselves, we bought it out with the city - we paid them instead of doing the work - and we are at the end of the five years now.

MR. J. BYRNE: Section 2.2.01 (01) salaries, you had budgeted $3,374,000 and spent $3,614,000 and you have $3,811,000 in this year, which is a $500,000 increase. Why is that?

MR. EFFORD: Well, it is not a $500,000 increase; it is $200,000 over what we spent.

MR. J. BYRNE: From what was budgeted last year and what is budgeted this year, it is $500,000.

MR. WHITE: I will answer that one too. We did some reorganization, as the minister talked about earlier, last year. We decreased our management on the transportation side but we did some increases on the work side. Okay? That is where the increased cost is there. We split the Avalon region which was about 60 per cent of the size of the Works area of the department and we made two districts out of it instead of one. So there is an increase there in the management side on the Works side.

MR. EFFORD: Also, a moment ago you were saying -

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: - and criticizing us for laying off people and cutting our salary budget, now you got an increase -

MR. J. BYRNE: I asked you questions. I didn't criticize. I asked questions. I didn't say it was right nor wrong. I asked the questions. Whatever way you interpreted it, I can't help that.

MR. CRANE: Be nice now, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Section 2.3.02, Maintenance of Equipment, Salaries. You had budgeted $6,787,000, you spent $5,819,000, and you have $5,951,000 this year. Is that because of the difference, is that lay offs, or reorganization what you were just talking about, or what is it?

MR. WHITE: That is an area that we have generally saved money every year. We have not spent as much on maintenance of equipment as we have had budgeted. We will revisit that during the year and I suspect you will see next year a lower figure. We have saved money almost every year in that area. Not as a result of any lay offs, but we didn't require the money. A lot of it has to do with the fact that our equipment, especially our truck ploughs, are relatively new and we've been able to keep them in good condition.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Section 3.2.03, Improvement and Construction - Provincial Roads. Section .06 says Purchased Services.

MR. EFFORD: Which one is that?

MR. J. BYRNE: 3.2.03.

MR. EFFORD: Oh, 3.2.03, I'm sorry.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, .06. It says Purchased Services. I would imagine that is to do with - is it contract cuts? In the meantime, it says $18 million budgeted, $13.6 million spent, and you have $11,765,000 budgeted again this year, which is over a $6 million difference less. Would this be again a situation where the minister is not being strong enough in demanding money for the department or anything?

MR. EFFORD: I don't know how you arrive at that. I've already told you that we have $15 million in the provincial agreement this year and that is the money that is going to be spent on the provincial capital works program. So why are you saying that the minister is not strong enough?

MR. J. BYRNE: There was $18 million budgeted for last year, and you have $11 million budgeted for this year. That is $7 million, or roughly between $6 million and $7 million less.

MR. EFFORD: No, what we have this year is $15 million.

MR. J. BYRNE: Where did you get $2.7 million?

MR. EFFORD: That $2.7 million -

MR. J. BYRNE: Are you looking at the same thing I'm looking at?

WITNESS: Look down at the bottom.

MR. EFFORD: Just look down on the bottom of the column there.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

MR. EFFORD: Twenty million dollars was the total last year budgeted for the Province, and this year it is -

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible) $5 million.

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MR. J. BYRNE: Five million dollars less.

MR. EFFORD: Five million dollars less. It is because of the mismanagement by the Tories for seventeen years.

MR. J. BYRNE: It has nothing to do with you guys, not at all, nothing because you are cutting the guts out of the thing. It has nothing to do with that.

MR. EFFORD: Five hundred and eighty-five million dollars in interest.

MR. J. BYRNE: I take no responsibility for it, I wasn't here.

Section 3.2.05, Purchased Services again. You had $17.5 million budgeted and you spent $23,805,000. That is roughly $6 million. Why such a difference there?

MR. WHITE: I can answer that one.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, that is the trunk road.

MR. EFFORD: The federal.

MR. WHITE: That is the federal initiative. Every year we always tender more than the money we got because the work never gets finished in the one year anyway. Last year happened to be such an excellent summer that the contractors did much more work than we thought. That is that is why that number is high. We were lucky, we were able to claim all that money from the Federal Government. Even though it was above the allocation they still came up with the money and we were able to claim it.

MR. EFFORD: In other words, Mother Nature was good to us last year.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister and Mr. Byrne.

At this point I have three more speakers who indicated they want to speak. It is normally the time that we would take a break. If I get the understanding that when the three speakers make their statements we will then be ready to call the heads - is that correct? - we will go on without a break.

MR. WALSH: Mr. Chairman, I'm willing to withdraw my - I can always get together with -

MR. CHAIRMAN: In other words, we will have two speakers and we will be calling the heads.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Alright. Mr. Careen.

MR. WALSH: I have some pertinent ones but I figure maybe I should do them privately.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Minister, what is the status now on the Prince Charles Building?

WITNESS: Prince Philip.

MR. EFFORD: Prince Charles?

MR. CAREEN: Well, there has been money allocated over a period of time. Where is the -

MR. EFFORD: Tenders will be called in a week or so for the refurbishing of the Prince Philip Building. All the engineering work and design work has been done so it is now ready to go to tender - hopefully within a month?

WITNESS: Yes, Natural Resources are going down there.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, in a month the tenders should be back and the contract will be awarded to the lowest tender. When it is completed it will house the Department of Natural Resources.

MR. CAREEN: There is parking space enough down there for that department.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, most definitely.

MR. CAREEN: That was one of the drawbacks, really, about that area, wasn't it - the parking space?

MR. EFFORD: We don't find it is a drawback, no. The engineering work is all done and that has all been taken into consideration. The Natural Resources people, the minister and everybody, have looked at it and they -

MR. CAREEN: Who did the design work, Sir? Jerrett? No?

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

MR. CAREEN: Who did the design?

MR. EFFORD: E. K. Jerrett.

MR. CAREEN: E. K. Jerrett.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where are they located?

MR. EFFORD: Bay Roberts.

AN HON. MEMBER: The next thing you're (inaudible) to be (inaudible) is a Liberal, I suppose.

MR. EFFORD: You got that right.

MR. CAREEN: I don't know what he is, I don't know the man.

One small thing, and it seemed rather small to me at the time it happened. Your department, I think, spent somewhere like $52,000 the year before last for the phone-in toll-free about highways. I think it cost somewhere around $52,000.

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. CAREEN: Last year you incorporated that it was a pay, on a 900 number.

MR. EFFORD: A 1-900 number, that is right.

MR. CAREEN: There wasn't very much of a saving. I realize that we are in hard times, but I thought that was a rather small way to go about saving a few dollars. How has it worked out? You figure the year before last you got some 70,000-odd calls?

MR. EFFORD: Yes, the year before, the telephone companies set up this system. It was free and it worked out to be very beneficial to commuters, to the people who required the information. When the 1-900 was put in place - I mean, there is a minimum cost of seventy-five cents per call, so for the individual out there who wants to get information on the highway conditions, where that individual wants to go on any given day, that is a pretty cheap service, to find out that for seventy-five cents, and you can go with some ease or you can cancel or change your programs depending on the information you get. We know it has been working very well and unless somebody else in the department can say otherwise, I have not received one complaint from any user this year, and to my knowledge, nobody else has.

MR. CAREEN: I haven't called it lately. Originally, like when anything starts, there are always bugs in it. The first couple of days it was on - I forget what it was A or B, 1 or 2, whatever the Avalon Peninsula is, there were many, many hours behind their updates. So that stuff has been (inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: The hon. member realizes that the climatic conditions - as you know and we all know - change and vary from time to time, but there are certain hours in the day that the information is put on, and that every four hours -

MR. McCARTHY: It is put on at 6:00 a.m. and then when there is a change to it, it is updated. There is no set schedule.

MR. EFFORD: No set time, but when there is a need to have a change - so in other words, 6:00 a.m. and if by 10:00 or 11:00 a.m. that morning the weather has changed substantially, the snow has eased up, the sun is shining and the highways are travelled, then it would be changed to suit the information that is required by the users.

MR. CAREEN: The Marine Atlantic, the South Coast - contrary to a release put out today, I did not say there was going to be a downturn. I asked the questions yesterday, would there be changes? Anyway, Rose Blanche is where it will terminate?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. CAREEN: The road from Rose Blanche down to Port aux Basques - and I have travelled it, it was many, many years ago. To be honest, I don't know what the conditions are now, but there were more twists and turns in it. I was in a vehicle with a fellow at one time coming down that route, and going around a turn - I was in the front seat - I was looking at the rear license of it, it was that bad a turn! But there are quite a few bad turns in that area from Port aux Basques to Rose Blanche. Now, in the summertime, late spring or the fall, I wouldn't anticipate any trouble, but in the winter it could be a bad area for the travelling public.

AN HON. MEMBER: That's only your mind.

MR. CAREEN: No it isn't my mind. Has your department looked at that particular road link? Sometimes you might have to use Port aux Basques instead of -

MR. EFFORD: No, let me make a point here. Myself and - there were three of us - you, Tom Beckett and myself; we went up and visited those communities. LaPoile has over 200 people living there, Grand Bruit has about 50 to 55 people. We had a public meeting in LaPoile and we asked those people the type of service - we made a presentation, left them some options, and we asked those people what service they would like and they wanted - nobody, every person in that hall that day said they wanted to go to Rose Blanche. They never expressed one concern about driving from Rose Blanche or the road into Port aux Basques. So I don't know where the hon. member is getting these concerns.

MR. CAREEN: No, I am just asking a question from my own -

MR. EFFORD: Oh, because it is certainly not coming from the users. In fact, they applauded us. They heard so much comment on the news media before going in there, they feared that we would come in and take away the service they had, and they were not going to get anything in return. When I told them the options we had open, they just couldn't believe it because they said when listening to CBC and reading The Evening Telegram none of this had been coming across, but this is exactly what we want. If the hon. member has a concern, then the people of LaPoile haven't.

MR. CAREEN: I was just asking because I know the road conditions, and I know that coast, because I spent a good many years up there.

The Marine Atlantic, at the middle of April, are supposed to be making their presentation to the Minister of Transport on next year's plan. Does your department have much dealings with Marine Atlantic on how it affects Newfoundland traffic?

MR. EFFORD: Are you talking about the Gulf service?

MR. CAREEN: Yes, Sir.

MR. EFFORD: To date, as minister, I haven't had any meetings with Marine Atlantic as far as their making a presentation to the Federal Government is concerned. That is a responsibility of Transport Canada. It is under the Terms of Union. We haven't - I don't know if anybody in the department...I suppose Tom Beckett -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Our concerns have been mainly on the South Coast service and that deal is finalized. I don't know if the hon. member has any particular concerns but there are none that have come to my attention.

MR. CAREEN: There awhile ago there was a flurry of statements made regarding the privatization of Marine Atlantic. We all know that the Gulf is in the Constitution. But we were led to believe, and the minister has made statements, and I agree with him because I have made the same statements myself where I lived at the time - I was not in politics, the Roads for Rail, I didn't agree with it. I didn't think there was enough for what it would cost our Province in the first place to put it in. I told Peckford that if we had received 1000 times what we got it still wouldn't have been enough. But at the time we are privatizing, we see what happened to the railway in the Constitution, and I would hate to think we might see the same thing on the Gulf. Have your lawyers checked that to find out that it will stand up?

MR. EFFORD: First of all there is a Constitutional agreement -

MR. CAREEN: So there was with the rail.

MR. EFFORD: - for Transport Canada to maintain the Gulf service. There is no constitutional binding agreement that they must use CN, but they must provide a service.

MR. CAREEN: The nearest link.

MR. EFFORD: That's right, they must provide a service, but you have to remember that the Tories were the cause of that Roads for Rail agreement. You knew I was going to say that, didn't you?

MR. CAREEN: They talked about the privatization of the Argentia - North Sydney service, too.

MR. EFFORD: But you know that is not in the Terms of Union.

MR. CAREEN: And neither is the Northeast Coast.

MR. EFFORD: We operate the Northeast Coast.

MR. CAREEN: The Trans-Labrador Highway.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Careen, your time has elapsed, Sir.

MR. CAREEN: That's good.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you have one question to clue up?

MR. CAREEN: I want to ask a question about negotiations for the Trans-Labrador Highway?

MR. EFFORD: The department is now talking to Transport Canada officials and we are trying to work out a deal for the Trans-Labrador Highway, but I can assure you, it is going to be a very, very difficult job. There is no national transportation policy, and if there were, there is nothing that would be in the national transportation policy for Labrador. It is an outside agreement and we have to depend on the ability of the officials of the department and Transport Canada to work out a deal that can provide some monies. Is it going to come this year? I wouldn't send out any good signals, but there are going to be a lot of negotiations taking place.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Fitzgerald, to clue it up.

MR. FITZGERALD: Very briefly, Mr. Minister, you indicated there would be no money this year - I have to get back to Route 235 again - because it was no worse than any other road and you also indicated that the government have a plan for the Roads for Rail money and what money they have put in themselves; I don't know if you said it was a five-year plan or a three-year or a ten, it doesn't matter, it takes us up to 2003, I think you stated. Route 235 - that isn't a road that is included under the Roads for Rail Agreement, is it?

MR. EFFORD: I am talking about the Bonavista Highway.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, you are talking about Route 230 -

MR. EFFORD: Route 230, yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: - which is the main road going down.

MR. EFFORD: Route 235 is provincial money.

MR. FITZGERALD: Route 235 is provincial money, and the road going out to Tickle Cove and Upper Amherst Cove and those places. Can you give me some indication as to when we can expect to see some maintenance money spent on that particular road?

MR. EFFORD: On which one, the 235?

MR. FITZGERALD: On the 235, yes.

MR. EFFORD: No. To be honest with you, I can't, because I don't have enough - oh the maintenance? We will be doing some maintenance this year. We have approximately, what, a million dollars in maintenance this year? We will do some maintenance but to reconstruct -

MR. FITZGERALD: But the capital, you don't know when there is going to be any capital money spent on it?

MR. EFFORD: No, I thought you asked the question about capital money. I can't give any indication as to when we are going to be able to spend some capital money and the reason is that I don't have the money to do it; I wish I did. I mean, our job, the department's job is to construct roads, whenever necessary and whenever we have the money, but the problem is, we don't have the money.

MR. FITZGERALD: The $15 million you referred to, that is going to be in the provincial Budget for roads, would that be capital money or would that be -

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: That will be capital money?

MR. EFFORD: Yes. $15 million. We have already spent $2.75 million when we called the Roads for Rail contract in different areas around the Province, and then, a million dollars of that is for maintenance and signage?

WITNESS: Signage is $900,000.

MR. EFFORD: Signage is $900,000 and there is some more for maintenance in there, so we will get down around $11 million or $12 million of capital money for the whole Province.

MR. FITZGERALD: When will that be announced, Mr. Minister?

MR. EFFORD: I am hoping within the next two weeks - the sooner the better to get out the contracts call; so I am hoping it will be sometime in the latter part of next week or within the two-week period.

MR. FITZGERALD: One other quick question. In Plate Cove West, we have a small fish plant - and I brought this to your department's attention I think it was last year and you had indicated at that particular time that the money couldn't be included because it was a few thousand dollars and would have to come out of a capital project. And tractor-trailers are going down to that little plant which is still operating, in that it is a pelagic plant where they buy caplin, crab and other things. And the vehicles come up, and instead of making the turn to proceed up Route 235 to the Trans-Canada Highway, they have to come out and go in the opposite direction for probably five miles and then turn and come back up again. All that needs to be done there, is to have the turn widened and the guardrail moved back, and I am wondering if you would consider that and take a look at it.

MR. EFFORD: We will take a look at it.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. One other quick question regarding insurance for automobiles.

I am still not convinced that motor registration cannot give probably better service by bringing in a plan to identify people who buy their insurance one day, cancel it the next, and still be allowed to drive on our highways. It is happening out there time and time again; it has happened before and is still happening. People go and put a down-payment on their insurance and then they allow it to lapse, and for some reason, nobody seems to catch them once they have stopped.

MR. EFFORD: Let me say this, and don't take it as being sarcastic, it is not; it is not intended to be that way. If someone in this Province, yourself or anybody else, could devise a means of controlling that and keeping a check on it with some kind of system, not only the government and Motor Registration, but the insurance companies, would certainly be glad; because I tell you, it is a real problem out there, a very difficult problem to control. Because Newfoundland is rated to be the most - people change their policies more than in any other area in Canada. They can buy a policy one day, change it or cancel it the next, and change companies from year to year.

MR. FITZGERALD: But aren't most insurance companies tapped into Motor Registration?

MR. EFFORD: No.

MR. FITZGERALD: Because I know they very quickly get a driver's abstract when you want one, and I would assume that comes from Motor Registration. So I would think, if I were going to allow my insurance to lapse, that Steers Insurance or R.C. Anthony or whomever could very easily -

MR. EFFORD: It would be a nightmare administratively to chase down.

MR. FITZGERALD: I beg your pardon?

MR. EFFORD: It would be a nightmare administratively to chase down. The Deputy Minister wanted to make a comment.

MR. WHITE: Two comments. We did a survey some years ago on this. We took 100 names at random off the system, and it took quite a bit of time to work it out, but we found that 93 per cent - 93 out of 100 - had legitimate insurance. There is a problem in trying to keep track of it, but the big problem is, if we identify John Jones, who doesn't have his car insured, it takes quite a big effort to go and get that fellow and get the licence plates from him and so on. That is the big problem.

Some years ago - and you might remember - if you gave a NSF cheque to Motor Registration when you renewed your vehicle every year, they tried to go and catch you. Now, the types of people who do this are very difficult to catch. The car is not where it is supposed to be, they phone around, it is moved, all this. You need a fleet of vigilantes to get these people. That is the problem with the insurance, it is physically getting the plates from the car. Sure, you can send out letters saying: You are suspended, but that doesn't mean anything. You don't have the plates.

If somebody could come up with a system where we can just with the computers fix this, we would love it. But, as the minister said - and this is the other problem - we have talked to the Insurance Bureau of Canada and they say that Newfoundlanders, unlike people in any other province, switch insurance companies an awful lot. Almost every year they go shopping around and go somewhere else. And this becomes quite a job. You have to have staff to match where the guy moves and try to find him, and then, if you are convinced that he doesn't have insurance, you have to go out and try to get the plates off him. It is not an easy task and would require quite an additional number of staff to do it.

MR. FITZGERALD: It is a problem out there. In fact, I know of an incident myself where somebody was involved in an accident with somebody who had no insurance. I can assure you, it is a nightmare for them, as well, and it is something that we should try to correct.

Anyway, Mr. Chairman, that is all I have, and I thank you very much.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If there are no further questions, I will now ask the Clerk to call the subheads, please, inclusive.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 5.3.02, carried.

On motion, Department of Works, Services and Transportation, total heads, carried.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I ask for a motion to adjourn, let me say this Committee will meet again on Monday morning at 9:00 a.m. here. We will discuss what - what will we discuss then, Clerk?

CLERK: Finance.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We will discuss the Estimates of the Department of Finance and the Public Service Commission, I think.

I will now ask for a motion to adjourn.

AN HON. MEMBER: So moved.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. And thank you, Mr. Minister.

The Committee adjourned.