The Committee met at 9:00 am in the House of Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Wiseman): My name is Ralph Wiseman and I am the Chairperson for the Government Services Committee. We are here this morning to review the Estimates of the Department of Government Services and Lands. I want to welcome the Minister and his staff here.

I take this opportunity to introduce to you the Members of the Committee: Mr. Jack Byrne, the Member for Cape St. Francis who is the Vice-Chair of the Committee; Gerald Smith who is the Member for Port au Port; Anthony Sparrow who is the Member for Placentia - St. Mary's; and Rick Woodford who is the Member for Humber Valley.

Now I should tell you that we have established some ground rules. We will allow the minister fifteen minutes to introduce his staff, and to make a statement, if he so desires, the Vice-Chair will have fifteen minutes to respond, and we will then change to a government member for ten minutes.

I would ask everyone to identify themselves before they speak for recording purposes. I think we can now get this meeting under way. I would ask the minister to lead off, if he so desires, if you have a statement, Mr. Minister.

MR. McLEAN: I do.

CHAIR: You do. Okay. So after you finish with your statement we will ask the clerk to start calling the heads. The hon. Minister, if you wish.

MR. McLEAN: Good morning, Mr. Chairman and committee members.

It is a new department, and I felt it appropriate to at least give an overview of the responsibilities of the Department prior to getting into the estimates part. So I have a short presentation here, if you would permit me to proceed.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am pleased to be here to present my department's estimates and to answer any questions that your committee might have. I would like to introduce the members of my staff who are avail to provide specific details on respective budget items. To my immediate left is Barbara Wakeham, the Deputy Minister; to my right is Mr. Winston Morris, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Commercial and Corporate Affairs; Mike Dwyer to my far left is the Assistant Deputy Minister for Government Services; and behind me, on my right, I guess, is Mr. Wilson Barfoot, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Lands. We also have Mr. Felix Croke, the Manager of Financial Operations. Felix is with the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, but we have shared administration with that particular department; so he is responsible for our administration.

Mr. Chairman, as you are aware Government Services and Lands is a new department established by the current administration which brought together most of the permitting, licencing, inspection and regulation of business by government under one department. This process is not completed, and, in fact, government has asked us to look at other program areas which might logically fit within the department, as well as particular complimentary services presently administered by the federal government which should be delivered under agreement by my department.

The department is comprised of three main branches, and a total of fifteen divisions. Its delivery of services embodies a number of regional and subregional offices to ensure the best delivery of the services in the most efficient manner.

We have a total of 454 permanent positions, and approximately thirty-six temporary and contractual positions, for a total staffing complement of 490.

I will just briefly outline the divisions under each branch and the major responsibilities and funding levels.

The Commercial and Corporate Affairs Branch is comprised of eight divisions which provide for the licencing and regulation of all businesses covered under the various acts and legislation. These include Trade Practices, Licencing and Enforcement, Criminal Code Licencing, Commercial Relations, Registries of Legal Interest, Securities Administration, Pension Policy and Real Estate and Landlord-Tenant Relations. There are seventy-five permanent positions.

The Credit Union Deposit Guarantee Corporation which regulates the credit union system in the Province also falls under this branch, but its operations and personnel are funded fully by the fund. There are five people involved in this program. This branch administers approximately seventy-five different acts and has a budget of (inaudible). It operates in St. John's, Gander and Corner Brook and generates revenues of approximately $18 million a year.

The Government Services branch is comprised of four divisions. These include Motor Vehicle Registration, Support Services, Regional Government Centres, and the Vital Statistics Registry.

The Motor Vehicle Registration division has 147 staff, including permanent and seasonal, and is located in Mount Pearl, Grand Falls - Windsor and Corner Brook, with subregional offices throughout the province. Its major responsibility is the administration of the Highway Traffic Act, the Motor Carrier Act, the Dangerous Goods Act, the National Safety Code and its regulations.

The Regional Services Division is responsible for the delivery of regional services with respect to land use, building permitting and inspection functions. Regional offices operate in St. John's, Clarenville, Gander, Corner Brook and Happy Valley - Goose Bay.

The Support Service Division provides the program planning and technical support to the regional operations. Together they employ 160 permanent and temporary people.

The Vital Statistics Division, with a staff of fourteen, provides for the registration of births, marriages and deaths, and the issuance of certificates to the public.

Over all, the Government Services Branch has a budget of $14,763,500, and generates revenue of approximately $50 million, and administers approximately twenty-five acts.

The Lands Branch is responsible for the management of some 62 million acres of Crown land and there are three divisions: Crown Land Administration, Land Management, and Surveying and Mapping, with a combined staff of eighty-one. The branch has a budget of $4.2 million and is expected to generate revenue of approximately $10 million through its fees, rentals, land sales, the sale of maps, photos and geomatic products. This branch administers four acts.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my opening statement. Either my officials or I would be pleased to answer any questions your members might have. Thank you.

CHAIR: Before we move along, I want to apologize. We had thought that Mr. Oldford wouldn't make it so Mr. Woodford had decided to fill in, but I now want to welcome Mr. Oldford here. Doug Oldford is the Member for Trinity North, and he is the real member of the committee. Hopefully the recorder will make the necessary changes. Ed Byrne just arrived, the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Well, I was a little bit easier on you than I was on Anthony, I think. So if the necessary corrections can be made.

I will now ask the clerk to call the head.

MR. J. BYRNE: Do we do questions on that first?

CHAIR: Well, we call the head, then we will go into questions.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Mr. Jack Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: I appreciate the opportunity, Mr. Minister, to ask you a few questions with respect to your new department.

First of all I would like to make a comment with respect to the minutes of the last meeting, on May 22. In section 4 they had: without amendment, on the motion of Mr. Sparrow as seconded by Mr. Jack Byrne; I didn't second that. I believe it might have been Mr. French. Just a correction.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. J. BYRNE: Also, Mr. Minister, would I be able to get a copy of the statement you just made?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, sure.

MR. J. BYRNE: Alright. Now going to the questions I have on Government Services and Lands, page 39, 1.1.01. Transportation and Communications, in $88,900. I'm just curious, because I made a comparison between a couple of other departments. One was Environment and Labour, which has $40,900 in for their department, and Fisheries and Aquaculture has in $60,700. Yet Government Services and Lands has $88,900. Why would there be such a vast difference between those departments?

MR. McLEAN: I will refer that to my deputy to respond.

MS WAKEHAM: Basically, in consultation with Treasury Board, we looked at the regional operations and the nature of additional activities in terms of Labrador; therefore the increase is the result of our regional operations. Environment and Labour does not have regional operations nor does Fisheries and Aquaculture. So that is the difference.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

CHAIR: Order, please!

I would ask everybody to identify themselves for recording purposes.

MS WAKEHAM: I am sorry, Barbara Wakeham, Deputy Minister.

MR. J. BYRNE: The same section, Purchased Services, $8,800: What would you be planning to purchase with that $8,800?

MS WAKEHAM: Normally purchasing services for government business, for entertainment by the minister, for any specific things that the minister may require over and above normal supplies within the office. The number that is actually here is a number that was estimated by Treasury Board itself in terms of the requirements for the Minister's Office.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Under General Administration, Executive Support, you have in Salaries, $566,500 for this year, and last year it was $302,700 budgeted at $320,900. There is a big difference. I know it is a new department, but is you are under Executive Support, shouldn't it be roughly the same amount of money. Why $200,000, (Inaudible) difference?

MS WAKEHAM: The $302,700 that is listed right there only included four particular staff. There are now eight staff in the divisions, the deputy, three ADMs and four secretarial support. Also included in that is a contractual position for public relations because we didn't have a public relations person on staff.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you are saying it went from how many ADMs? From four to eight staff.

MS WAKEHAM: When the original figure was developed, the two ADMs were included in this particular salary here, plus the secretarial support. This is the information that was provided to me by Treasury Board. What has happened now is, the $566,500 includes a deputy minister, three ADMs, four secretarial support, and a contractual position for a public relations specialist which was not included previously. There is some additional contractual money in there for an assistant analyst, or for secondment.

MR. J. BYRNE: Could you tell me what the contract would be for that public relations individual? What is the salary?

MS WAKEHAM: The salary right now is estimated at approximately $50,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: Fifty thousand. Is it not true that government has public relations people hired on, generally speaking? Is it necessary for every department to have public relations people?

MS WAKEHAM: At the moment what we are doing is we are sharing a public relations person with the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs; but because of the nature of the department, in terms of its front line activity with the public, we have some difficulty in terms of being able to respond in a timely fashion. So we had requested, through the Premier's Office, that we be allowed to have, on a contractual basis, a public relations specialist.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that person in place now?

MS WAKEHAM: No, no. We do not have anybody in place now.

MR. J. BYRNE: Will that person by coming in from outside or will it be someone hired from within the Civil Service now?

MS WAKEHAM: They will be hired through the Public Service Commission.

MR. J. BYRNE: Through the Public Service Commission.

MS WAKEHAM: Through the Public Service Commission, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: What I am asking is: Would that individual - I do not know if you already have a person in mind for that position or not, but will that position be filled from someone within the Civil Service or will you be bring somebody in from outside?

MS WAKEHAM: I am assuming, and I have not been involved in the actual selection of the person, I have been dealing with the Public Service Commission on this - and I am assuming that if there is a person presently within the Public Service who has the requirements then they will hire someone from within the Public Service Commission.

MR. J. BYRNE: When will this position be filled?

MS WAKEHAM: I am hoping as soon as possible.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Transportation and Communications: again $127,600 budgeted, up from $27,300. That is $100,300 more than was actually spent last year.

MS WAKEHAM: The $100,000 basically is the splits that were brought in from the other departments. We didn't have any when this department was created. The only thing they had, basically, was to bring in the stuff that I had. So this is the result of the postage, the communications in terms of the actual telephones, and what was spread out in the other departments when they put it together. This is the money that was generated by those other departments, Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 40, 2.1.02, Real Estate and Landlord-Tenant Relations, Transportation and Communications, from $37,300 up to $79,400. Can you address that?

MS WAKEHAM: The monies that are established under the Residential Tenancies Boards are related to monies that are needed for the five appeal boards that are set up. This is transportation costs associated with the appeal boards. There had been an intent to eliminate the appeal boards in 1996-1997, and we had reduced our operational costs last year based on - that $37,000 from $84,400. The $84,400 is more realistic in terms of the actual cost of operating the five appeal boards. What we had done is we had reduced the number of meetings we had with the appeal boards in order to be able to meet a reduction, our targets for 1995-1996. Consequently we have gone back up now because the appeal boards are in operation again, at $79,400.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to Purchased Services, $97,200: What was actually purchased for $89,300?

MS WAKEHAM: I would like to ask Winston Morris, the ADM for Commercial and Corporate Affairs, to answer that.

MR. MORRIS: Purchased Services in this subhead: The vast majority of that relates to payments to members of the Residential Tenancies Boards, of which there six in the Province. They are paid on a per diem basis for the number of hearings that they hold.

MR. J. BYRNE: What is the per diem for those boards?

MR. MORRIS: The per diem: I'm not sure what the actual amount per day is that they receive, but it is the same as whatever the Treasury Board guidelines are for per diems for boards and commissions. I don't know the daily amount, I'm sorry.

MR. J. BYRNE: Did you say there were six boards?

MR. MORRIS: Six boards, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: On Property, Furnishings and Equipment, there was $11,700 spent. What was that actually spent on?

MR. MORRIS: The Property, Furnishings and Equipment relates to a few areas. We had last year a full-time chairman for the St. John's Residential Tenancies Board. Prior to that it was operated on a half-time basis, so when we had a full-time chairman we needed furniture for that person. Also we moved premises form the Ashley Building to Elizabeth Towers where the rest of the branch is. Prior to last year there were separate offices rented out to hold hearings in St. John's in the Ashley Building. We acquired some space in Elizabeth Towers where the rest of the operation is, after another government department moved out, and that required some more furniture. There was also a photocopier that had to be replaced for that area.

MR. J. BYRNE: If you have the position - first of all, who fills that position?

MR MORRIS: The chairman? Right now it is a person by the name of Dale Sudom. He just started recently, in the last few months.

MR. J. BYRNE: If that position was half-time before and you made it full-time, you must have had furniture that that person was utilizing. Why couldn't that furniture be moved into the new office?

MR. MORRIS: The previous chairman had other offices. He was also chairman of the Pippy Park Commission, I believe, and I think that was his main office, with the Pippy Park Commission. That is where he operated, to my understanding, out of that building.

MR. J. BYRNE: So Dale Sudom is no longer with the Department of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture, is he?

MR. MORRIS: That is right. Last year Martin Howlett was actually the chairman, and he was the first, I think, full-time chairman. He went back to Fisheries, Food and Agriculture this year and Dale Sudom moved from Fisheries, Food and Agriculture over to this position.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 41, under Licensing and Enforcement, Salaries, $124,200 budgeted, up from $111,000 actually spent: Why? With respect to all of the cuts that are going on, you would think that would be less, not higher.

MR. MORRIS: What happened in that area - last year, as you can see, the budget was $123,500. We had one of our licensing officers seconded. We were in the Department of Justice last year. That person was seconded to the budgeting division, and that position was left vacant for about four, five or six months, something like that. Therefore, we did not fill that position while she was gone. That was the reason it went down from $123,000 to $111,000. This year it is estimated at $124,000, which is slightly more than the previous year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Under Criminal Code Licensing, the same page, Purchased Services, $34,400 last year, $38,400 this year: What services would they be?

MR. MORRIS: That is mainly related to rental, the difference there. We were renting space again over in, I believe it was the Prudential Building on Elizabeth Avenue, and again this was centralized into Elizabeth Towers. The original budget was $47,000 for 1995-1996, and we had some savings in rent in the order of $6,500, I believe. Also, some printing costs and that sort of thing comes out of that as well, and we had some reductions there.

MR. J. BYRNE: You say you moved into Elizabeth Towers?

MR. MORRIS: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Doesn't government own that building?

MR. MORRIS: Yes, but we do pay rent to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

MR. J. BYRNE: Renting from yourself.

Property, Furnishings and Equipment in that same section, you spent $3,500. What would that have been spent on?

MR. MORRIS: I believe that relates to - and I am not 100 per cent sure - a photocopier, again, that we had to replace last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

On page 42, section 2.1.06, Registries of Legal Interest, Salaries, $695,300 budgeted, down from $775,000 spent: That $775,000 was up $24,000 basically, or almost $25,000, from what was budgeted. Can you just address those two items, the increase spent and the decrease now?

MS WAKEHAM: The salaries of $751,600 included an additional three positions for $68,000 that were eliminated as a result of the reduction in the monies that were actually there, the $775,000, the actual cost of the positions. The three positions that were eliminated as a result of the reduction for 1996-1997 were a Clerk-Typist II position, a Deputy Registrar position, and a Clerk-Steno III position. That is why we are down to $695,300.

What you have here is an annualized (inaudible) happening with respect to those positions.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to those three positions, Clerk, Secretary and Registrar -

MS WAKEHAM: Deputy Registrar.

MR. J. BYRNE: Deputy Registrar?

MS WAKEHAM: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: What classification would that Deputy Registrar be? Would that be union or administration?

MS WAKEHAM: Winston, can you answer that?

MR. MORRIS: The Deputy Registrar was, in fact, a unionized position. In fact, in our Commercial and Corporate Affairs the only staff, prior to this year, who were not unionized were the directors. We have no other managers other than directors.

MR. J. BYRNE: Those three positions, were they with the most recent cuts announced in the Budget?

MR. MORRIS: No, actually the Deputy Registrar was a retirement last year. That was before the cuts, and we decided not to replace that position.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

What I am getting at here, because I listened to the information coming out from government, that in the new cuts they would be more or less addressing the middle management type of thing and not the front lines. This obviously was the front lines, I would think.

MR. MORRIS: Yes. As I said, a few years ago when the previous round of government cuts in commercial and corporate affairs - and again, this was before I got there. The middle level management of managers - for example, you have the director level and below that in most departments there is a level of managers and then you have your union people - the entire level of management was eliminated. As a result we just have directors with unionized staff reporting directly to directors and no managers in between. So the only positions we have left to eliminate are the directors and unionized staff. In fact, in this level of a go around we are eliminating one director position when that person retires, and we will not replace that one. In the last few years there were two other director positions eliminated. So quite a few management level positions have, in fact, been eliminated over the last few years in this division.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would like to finish off that section. With respect to the same section, Purchased Services, $47,600 spent last year, $53,000 budgeted for last year and now you are looking at $34,100 this year: What services would be purchased there?

MR. MORRIS: Okay, the change there relates to a couple of things actually, an upward expenditure and a downward. Starting last year we have to pay for the gazettes that we have printed, and in this particular area there is quite a bit of printing for registrations of new corporations. When a new corporation is registered all of this is printed in The Gazette. So that resulted in us having to spend $15,000 which, prior to this, was just absorbed by government, but it is money spent to another government department. So that was an extra expenditure.

Then we had a reduction of $33,600 and this relates to rent from the Bills of Sale Division. They used to be in Elizabeth Towers and we paid rent. Although it was paid to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing we still had to pay it out to another government branch.

MR. J. BYRNE: Could I interrupt for one second?

MR. MORRIS: Sure.

MR. J. BYRNE: You said there was an increase, but actually there was $53,000 budgeted, it went to $47,600 spent and down to $34,000. Where is the $15,000 increase you are talking about?

MR. MORRIS: There is an increase in expenditures for The Gazette but a reduction of $33,000 in rent for a reduction of $18,000 altogether approximately. That is from 1995-1996 to 1996-1997. So the rent is a reduction and the increase is in Gazettes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under Information Technology - now that system in government has been underway for a number of years now - and I have asked this at other committee meetings. They had budgeted $200,200, spent $132,700 and it is back up to $200,500. Is this for the purchase of equipment or putting in place an information technology system or is it for maintenance and follow up? What is this money being spent on and how much longer are you expecting to spend this kind of money, in every department almost; large sums of money?

MR. MORRIS: In this particular area, the $200,200 budgeted relates to a number of things, including equipment and maintenance but also a project to improve the system that we have in the Registry of Deeds and Companies which is totally inadequate and is creating a lot of problems, actually, for our searchers when searching titles and what not. There was supposed to be a project last year to get it under way but because of cutbacks and what not it did not get under way last year. It is put back in this year, hopefully that it will get under way.

I guess the ongoing costs would be roughly in the $132,000 to $133,000 range but we do need to spend some extra money to get that system upgraded. It is creating a lot of difficulties for the business community by having the current system the way it is.

MR. J. BYRNE: A general question to the minister, with respect to the Registry of Deeds, the Crown Lands Registry and what have you, more particularly the Registry of Deeds: Is there any talk or any money being set aside for going to a title system? Is there any talk of combining the Registry of Deeds and the Crown Lands Registry, any talk or consideration?

MS WAKEHAM: The whole question of trying to do a combination or at least an interface between the Registry of Deeds and Companies and the Registry of Crown Titles, I would say this has been ongoing for about ten or twenty years. It is anybody's guess. Unless we bring in an actual compulsory ownership of registration within the Province there are a lot of difficulties in trying to combine the two systems.

What we are doing right now, though, is we do have an interface between the Registry of Crown Titles and the Registry of Deeds and Companies, so that our checking back and forth, in terms of the documentations themselves, is a lot better than it was in the past.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

My time is up I believe, isn't it?

CHAIR: Before we move on, I would like to welcome Mr. Bob French who is the M.H.A. for Conception Bay South and who is a member of the Estimates Committee. He arrived shortly after we did the introduction. So for recording purposes we want to make sure that he is listed here.

Now if you want to move along here, do the government members have any questions at the moment?

MR. E. BYRNE: I do.

CHAIR: Okay, Ed Byrne.

MR. E. BYRNE: I will be brief this morning, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you.

MR. E. BYRNE: Just a couple of questions. On Page 45, dealing with subhead 3.1.04, National Safety Code: It says in the head: "Appropriations provide for the National Safety Code Program which is a cooperative effort between the Federal and Provincial Governments and the commercial trucking industry to improve highway safety." Is it possible that you could elaborate on the exact nature of that program, what work within that area the department does and what future work it intends to do. I am not very familiar with it.

MR. DWYER: The whole issue of the National Safety Code deals a lot with widths and dimensions of commercial vehicles, the weigh scales that you see on the roads for overweights and over-widths and different things like that, the Commercial Inspection Program of where there are a number of planned inspections on the roads in concert with the RCMP throughout the year. Basically what it is, is a National Program that gives the individual truckers the ability to be able to cross over to different provinces knowing that the same set of standards apply.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay. Fair enough. Thanks.

On page 46, Support Services, Permitting and Inspection Services, item 06, Purchased Services: Purchased Services are up from what was actually spent last year, $470,000, projected this year to $779,000. Could you just elaborate on the increase. I know it is a new department and there are a lot of crossovers coming in.

MR. DWYER: That is the accounts centre which is primarily used for leased accommodations. Last year when we projected we would be in different facilities, for argument's sake, we had a projection, but we did not get into a number of the facilities on time, so therefore there was a reduction in the actual expenditures.

When we did the original estimates for last year -

MR. E. BYRNE: So this was for when you were moving into the one-stop shopping centres, you are talking about?

MR. DWYER: Yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay.

MR. DWYER: So that figure of $779,400 would reflect all of our leased costs, whereas last year it probably reflected 80 per cent or something like that.

MR. E. BYRNE: How are the centres working?

MR. DWYER: They are working well. We are getting quite a positive response from the public in the area and I think the public are encouraging us to add as many other services as possible.

MR. E. BYRNE: If there much left to be done in terms of the work there?

MR. DWYER: There is always lots to do. Yes, there are other opportunities there. We have been identifying -

MR. E. BYRNE: Pardon me?

MR. DWYER: There are other opportunities and services that we are identifying, and over time hopefully we will add a few more.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay.

On page 48, subhead 4.1.01, dealing with Crown Land: Salaries have increased somewhat under the Salary Estimate. Again is that an administrative sort of function where there may be more people coming in because of the new department?

MS WAKEHAM: The switch from the $1,542,100 to the $1,830,000 reflects adjustments that were made by Treasury Board as a result of - in 1995-1996 what they had done was they had used the variance with respect to the overall total salary vote for Natural Resources and did the variance off Crown Lands as one unit. So there was $255,000 overall that was shown against Crown Lands, against positions, for the overall balancing of the salary vote. When we moved out of Natural Resources and moved into the new department, what they did was they adjusted that variance.

MR. E. BYRNE: What you are saying then is that would account for the -

MS WAKEHAM: That would account for the $1,542,100 to the $1,830,000, for the revised.

MR. E. BYRNE: What accounts for the $1,830,000 to what you are budgeting this year?

MS WAKEHAM: Now, for the $1,830,000 to the $2,220,700, the $400,000 there is the contractual positions for the additional ten bodies who are required to implement the new value market pricing program that government is putting in this year, or that was announced in the Budget. This is five people who are required to do the actual -

MR. E. BYRNE: What is the name of the program?

MS WAKEHAM: Market value pricing policy.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay.

MS WAKEHAM: (Inaudible) the ten positions that are there. That is for twelve- and eighteen-month periods, basically to deal with the processing of those applications for grant conversion.

MR. E. BYRNE: That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Oldford.

MR. OLDFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to ask a question about the increase in licensing fees. For trust and loan companies it has gone up to $3,500. In the case of banks, is that for individual banks or is it a fee that is charged to each branch of a bank?

MR. MORRIS: Those trust and loan company fees don't relate to the chartered banks at all. Chartered banks are federally licensed and federally incorporated. This deals with trust companies that operate here in Newfoundland. Most of them operate in every province. We have Fortis Trust, which is the only Newfoundland incorporated one. Trust and loan companies have to be licensed in every single province because that is provincial jurisdiction, whereas banks are federal jurisdiction. Every province licenses the trust and loan companies separately.

MR. OLDFORD: That would be loan companies like Avco Financial Services and that type of loan company?

MR. MORRIS: No. Loan companies, like the finance companies, are treated a little separately because they do not take deposits. These trust and loan companies refer to companies that take deposits and lend them out. Any company that strictly lends money out and does not take consumer deposits is under a separate act. In fact, under regulatory reform that act is being eliminated and we will no longer be licensing companies that strictly lend out their own money, if you like.

MR. OLDFORD: So the trust and loan companies would be like Fortis or Canada Trust?

MR. MORRIS: Canada Trust, Royal Trust, Montreal Trust, all those types of companies, yes.

MR. OLDFORD: There isn't a great number of those in any case.

MR. MORRIS: No, there isn't a large number.

MR. OLDFORD: The other question I was going to ask was on the front- line services being provided. When we went around the Province with the Budget consultations. that was one of the things that people talked about, was to down size government but yet preserve front-line services to people. I understand you are going to do some things in the rural areas of the Province on a regional basis. I'm wondering what your plans are for the next fiscal year when it comes to your one-stop shopping and your service centres.

MR. McLEAN: Mr. Oldford, the whole concept of what we are trying to do with the government services is devolve them out into the regions as much as our budget will allow us to do. By those services I mean the kinds of services that people complain they don't get presently, in terms of Vital Statistics and Motor Vehicle Registration in different areas, in particular, and of course Crown Lands, which you may be interested to know, we are putting out into Clarenville. Those are the types of services we are focusing on immediately, if it is permissable to the budgetary process, to get out into the regions.

Mike may want to expand on that a little bit, as to exactly where we are with the service centres right now.

MR. DWYER: Right now we have our five regional offices set up in St. John's, Clarenville, Gander, Corner Brook and Goose Bay, and there are a few sub-offices which we have still yet to finalize, for example, down on the Burin Peninsula and down in Carbonear, that area. What we are doing since the Motor Registration Division became part and parcel of the same branch, is we have taken the opportunity of combining some of those services also, for example, recently in Goose Bay and recently in Gander.

There are other options out there where we will be looking at providing lesser services. I think government has a view; it does not necessarily have to be the government service centre to provide the services that the government service centre provides. There are certain places where we do not have staff but we would like to have another department, on government's behalf, to provide some of the basic services that we would provide.

So we are taking these on one at a time, evaluating the different options. We have been approached on several occasions by some rural communities saying: Why can't we have a smaller version of what you have in Gander or a smaller version of what you have in Corner Brook? So we are exploring all those opportunities.

MR. OLDFORD: Thank you.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, may I have one more comment on that please?

CHAIR: Sure, go ahead.

MR. McLEAN: The whole concept, I think, of trying to provide a better government service out in the regions is to tap into the resources that are already available through other departments, as Mike said, and there are a lot of those in different parts of the Province that you may not realize. We have many departments in many different areas of the Province that maybe - and we will be looking into it - can provide some of the services that our department is responsible for delivering out there. That is the objective we are looking at.

CHAIR: Thank you, minister.

We now go to Mr. French, the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, Mr. Chairman, thank you.

I would like to go back to page 39 on the PR person again. I just wonder if the minister, once this person is hired, could send me notification as to exactly who the individual is, the salary that we are paying, and whether they were hired through the Public Service or through some other means?

MR. McLEAN: I have no problem with that at all. Once the person is in place, we can certainly do that.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. The other question that intrigues me a bit is on the Landlord Tenancies Boards. I think somebody said there are six of those around the Province. I just wonder again, if my office could receive a list of those boards, exactly what they are paid as honorariums, who they are and who the chairman is; if my office could be supplied with that information as well, please. As well, the number of years they have been sitting as members of these boards?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, I don't see any problem in having that provided to all the committee members if they want it.

MR. FRENCH: I would like to have it anyway. I don't know about the rest but I certainly would.

MR. McLEAN: Okay, it will be done.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you.

I think probably, Jack, you are going to cover the one on the (inaudible). That's it for me, Mr. Chairman.

As well, sir, if I might, I was late coming and I am going to have to be excused. I have some meetings upstairs that I have to attend. I just got away for a few minutes and I have to go back to them. So if I might I would like to be excused?

CHAIR: No problem.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you.

CHAIR: Okay, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. I will just continue on the way I was going. On page 43, under Securities Administration, Salaries went from $136,900, budgeted in 1995-1996, up to $165,200. Why the increase? Then it is budgeted again even more, at $173,900. I would just like to know why that would be.

MR. MORRIS: In Securities Administration there was a new position of administrative officer created. That was the main reason for the extra increase in 1995-1996. The increases in 1996-1997, which are not that large, are about $8,000 really, mainly to step increases for the individuals in place. Most of them are at the lower end of their scale and they are entitled to a step increase, even though there are no salary increases. They go up another step on the scale.

MR. J. BYRNE: The new position went through the Public Services Commission, did it?

MR. MORRIS: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Since I've started these Committee meetings, I was surprised to find out that - I thought there was a freeze on salaries throughout government, yet people are getting their step progressions.

MR. MORRIS: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: So there isn't really a freeze as you would normally think there would be.

MR. MORRIS: There is no freeze on step progression. Anyone who starts off and is given a scale, if they start off at the bottom of a scale, and there are two or three steps - for a union, I think it is three steps and management has a broader range of steps - those steps have not been frozen, no; but the annual increases, if you like, have been frozen, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Same page, 2.1.08, Pensions Policy, item 05, Professional Services. You had budgeted $15,000, you spent $20,800, and that is down to $1,000 this year. Can you explain that?

MR. MORRIS: Yes. Last year there was a new pensions act being drafted and there was money spent on Professional Services in order to get that in place, in the order of $10,000 I understand. Also there were some actuaries required to be hired to analyze some of the pension plans in the Province. It isn't anticipated that any actuaries will have to be hired in the current year. That is why it is just reduced to a minimum of $1,000 this year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Page 44, 3.1.01, Administration. Transportation and Communications: "Appropriations provide for administrative costs relating to motor vehicle and driver registration." Item .03, as I said: You spent $358,000 and $361,300 is budgeted for this year. What would that money be spent on, in particular?

MR. DWYER: That basically covers employee travel and communication costs of the administration division.

MR. J. BYRNE: The employee travel to do what?

MR. DWYER: There are different types of travel. For argument's sake, a lot of the travel that is done in this is done in conjunction with some of the federal boards and different things like that. It relates to a lot of that type of travel.

MR. J. BYRNE: Travel outside the Province or within the Province?

MR. DWYER: A certain amount of it, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much, do you know, outside?

MR. DWYER: We will have to get that information for you. I haven't got it for you right here.

MR. J. BYRNE: Could you do that?

MR. DWYER: Yes, that isn't a problem.

MR. J. BYRNE: Supplies, same section, up from $49,800 to $125,300.

MR. DWYER: The supplies were an issue. MRD came over from the Department of Works, Services and Transportation with the establishment of the new department, and that particular item there, they did not have their fuel for their vehicles in MRD. It used to come out of general administration in the Department of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, there is $70,000 for fuel?

MR. DWYER: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: For who did you say?

MR. DWYER: For motor vehicle inspectors and weigh scale operators.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Under Purchased Services, again up from $162,000 to $273,400, that was down and up again. Why would that be?

MR. DWYER: Well, it was with the Department of Works, Services and Transportation last year. I would suggest that there was a concerted effort not to spend it in that area. What that is spent for are items such as advertising for seat belt usage, impaired driving, ATVs, and also there are some areas in there for printing supplies.

MR. J. BYRNE: You say there was probably a concerted effort to keep the expenditures down in 1995-1996, from $273,000 to $162,000. With the amount of people being laid off and what have you throughout the civil service, wouldn't you think there would be the same effort made this year?

MR. DWYER: Again, I will have to get back to you with that answer as to why the differential in the $100,000 on the Budget in the revised.

MR. J. BYRNE: What time frame are we talking about in getting this information, the committee on the whole, any information that we don't have that we would be receiving?

MR. DWYER: Some time next week.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. The same page, Driver Examination And Vehicle Inspection, Supplies, $48,000 spent, up to $71,500: I am having problems with these figures because of just the general lay-offs. It seems to me there could be savings elsewhere, not in personnel necessarily.

MR. DWYER: Supplies in this area covers things like examination forms for testing and different things like that. Sometimes there is stock on hand which drives some of the costs down and sometimes there is an under stocking. So from time to time those particular types of account centres actually fluctuate.

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 45, Licence and Registration Processing, Salaries, $1,180,900 budgeted, up from $1,133,000. New positions?

MR. DWYER: That I believe is a position which the federal government funded this year. It was an auditor position.

MR. J. BYRNE: That's for 1996-1997, you mean?

MR. DWYER: Yes, the difference between 1995-1996 and 1996-1997.

MR. J. BYRNE: Supplies, the same section, $166,400 up from $99,300, and that was down from $316,400. There seem to be vast differences here.

MR. DWYER: Well what happens in that area there, for argument's sake, that would be the licence plates, stickers and different things. What that is, when they go out and they purchase those types of commodities they just don't purchase them every year they purchase them in periodic years. So it will be up $150,000 one year rather than spread over four years, for argument's sake.

MR. J. BYRNE: Information Technology: Basically the same questions as before. There is some money being spent on computers and a lot of the computers of course are doing away with jobs; we all know that. When is there going to be a handle on when that is going to be completed, when we are not going to have to spend this kind of money? If we go through every department and look at Information Technology, we are up in the tens of millions of dollars, I suppose.

MR. DWYER: I can only account for what technology is going on within our department or our branch. That question would probably better lend itself to the IT people in Treasury Board as a whole. As you are probably aware, we submit an IT budget and in conjunction with the people at Treasury Board - of the dollars that are available for government spending, they are allocated based on government priorities.

MS WAKEHAM: I would like to add to the question on information technology. This new department has probably one of the most important functions in terms of registration and information about individuals and companies that are operating. One of the things that we have to do is we have to cooperate with federal agencies with respect to information. The systems that are put in place in most cases are ones that can interface as well with the federal government. There is a lot of information within the Motor Vehicle Registration Division that is passed on both to the courts in terms of what is happening, in terms of the federal agencies, in terms of what is happening with individuals, and also there is a check in terms of criminal activities with respect to motor vehicles that go across the whole of North America. So there is a requirement for a fairly sophisticated system with respect to the retrieval and the flow of information.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

MS WAKEHAM: Thank you.

MR. J. BYRNE: National Safety Code, Salaries: It is up from $604,200 up to $651,300. If I remember correctly, it was either the fall or the winter that the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation with respect to the commercial trucking, talked about deregulating the trucking industry. I would assume that were would have been layoffs with respect to that, rather than an increase in salaries. What is going on there?

MR. DWYER: The small increase in the budget figure for last year and this year would be for step increments. The difference between the budget and revised for last year would have been not filling certain positions. I am not aware that there was anything done with respect to deregulation of the trucks.

MR. J. BYRNE: Definitely there was deregulation announced with respect to the trucking industry. I just assumed then that, of course, if he was doing that there would be more jobs gone. Obviously there are no jobs gone here.

MS WAKEHAM: The federal government has provided some monies to the department under the National Safety Code in order to ensure that their safety standards are carried out. If you look at the whole National Safety Code you will see that there is revenue from the federal government of $207,000. That $207,000 is spread, if you look at the $730,000 to the $914,000, throughout those categories to accommodate that person who is working, from the federal government, to do audits on some of the commercial registrations and standards that are ongoing.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 46, 3.2.01, Support Services, Salaries up $73,000: Why would that be?

MR. DWYER: You are going to find in that particular page here, page 46, that from time to time there are going to be discrepancies between the estimates for this year, the budget for last year and the revised for last year. That is because when we started out we did not have all the persons in place at the time, and when we did our salary details in conjunction with Treasury Board for last year's budget, we were not funded for 100 per cent of the permanent positions that we had because of the unlikeliness of being able to fill them. To be able to fill them April 1, for argument sake, we had to go through competitions etc. which meant that there were certain jobs that would only be filled for six months during the first year. There were certain offices that were not scheduled to be opened until July or August. In light of that there were certain positions associated with a particular office that were not projected to be filled until July, August, or November, for argument's sake.

MR. J. BYRNE: These are new regional offices you are talking about?

MR. DWYER: Yes. What happened there, when the number of bodies and services came under the one department last year, Government Services Centre, there were a number of vacancies in the system at the time, and there were a number of vacancies which got reclassified and moved around. The fact that the 160 positions that are in those divisions now were not in effect and operating April 1, Treasury Board basically took the difference and projected a savings for that year because of the inability to be able to fill all the positions effective April 1.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good. Same section, Transportation and Communications, up $56,000 from what was spent. Same reason?

MR. DWYER: Same reason, yes. However, there is a certain amount of forced savings in here from last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Supplies doubled, what was spent to what you were planning on spending, $15,000 up to $29,300.

MR. DWYER: When we took the particular budgets and the monies from the different departments and put them all under one, we found out that throughout the first year of operation all the money may not have been put in the appropriate places, in particular account centres. So something you will see here this year that you won't see next, you will see underruns and overruns, but at the end of the day it is pretty consistent with respect to staying within budget.

MR. J. BYRNE: Purchased Services: Last year it $470,000, this year it is $779,400, which is $309,000 more. What would Purchased Services be? Again, same reasoning, I suppose.

MR. DYWER: As I explained, Mr. Byrne, that was on the leased accommodations.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes. Bob asked that question, I think.

Property, Furnishings and Equipment, $40,000 last year and you have $43,500 this year. What would the $40,000 have been spent on? Was it actually furnishings? What was it?

MR. DWYER: It could be anything from furnishings, like photocopy machines and different things like that. When we took over staff from other departments, if we took over 50 per cent of the staff we basically had to give and take on some of the items such as photocopy machines and that. Basically that is the majority of what would have been spent on that, some machinery like that.

MR. J. BYRNE: When the department was formed and the different sections came into the department, wouldn't the sections - I mean, I don't even know if the department is actually set up as a department yet, with respect to, say, Municipal Affairs has its own section and Environment and Labour has its own floor or whatever the case may be. Is the department actually together now as a department type of thing? If they are, when it did come together with these different sections, and you had the employees coming to the department, wouldn't they have their own furnishings, desks, computers, and all that stuff? Why would it be necessary to buy more?

MR. McLEAN: We are certainly not together. We are all over -

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what I thought.

MR. McLEAN: - the Confederation Building and beyond, in terms of the office space. Even the headquarters is not together. We have Mike down in Municipal Affairs, Barbara and myself are up on the third floor, and Winston is somewhere in the Confederation Building. When we do get together, when we are able to put the department into one section, obviously some of these things are going to fall into place, but right now we have taken things from different areas. There is going to be a lot of confusion in terms of what comes with us and what doesn't. Until we get that squared away there is going to be a lot of flexibility in these types of figures.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well then, if that is the case, and obviously it is the case, some of the answers that Mike was giving with respect to when the new department was formed and you had to have money for Property, Furnishings and Equipment, if they are still in the same place, why would you need this extra money to be spent?

MS WAKEHAM: With respect to the new department, there was no Property, Furnishings and Equipment vote either for the minister's office or the deputy's office. I brought my furniture as an ADM. That left a hole back down in the other department when I took mine out, so that somebody in another department had to find it. As far as I understand there has been a freeze on property, furnishings and equipment. And consequently, if you are very good at relocation then you may be able to find some furniture to put into your offices.

The other thing that happens is when you move out of a department there are shared services. There are shared photo copiers, there are shared shredders, there are shared printers, there are all kinds of shared things. Consequently, depending on how many people are moving out, they decide whether or not they keep the equipment or you have to find it some place else. So there is always the problem of trying to find some extra equipment as a result of changes within the organization itself.

As a matter of fact, the minister was using a director's furnishings until we managed to find some over in the Viking Building for him when there were some changes over there. So basically we are using furniture that somebody else had in another department that we have managed to relocate into ours.

MR. J. BYRNE: But a lot of these sections have not relocated yet.

MS WAKEHAM: No, no. What is going to happen in terms of the department is, we probably have a requirement for about 60,000 square feet and we do not have that. The regionalization of the operation that we have right now will stay the same. Mews Place will stay Mews Place. So, the regional operations in terms of the government centres will stay where they are. The Executive will move into Confederation Building and hopefully we will have the Commercial and Corporate Affairs Group, part of which is now down in Elizabeth Towers, part in the East Block, and I do not know where the other part is, but anyway we are hoping to put all of that together in one group so we can actually have some kind of efficient operation in terms of the Executive in at least one of the branches.

The Lands Branch will not be moving. Howley Building will not be moving, nor will the regional operations. We have just finished doing the Co-location of the Crown Lands and the GSCs together. So they are completed now, with the exception of some annualization that has to be done because of the nature of the operations.

MR. J. BYRNE: The people who moved recently who moved into Elizabeth Towers within this past year will be moving again?

MS WAKEHAM: The people who are in Elizabeth Towers right now have been there for a number of years.

MR. J. BYRNE: Didn't we ask a question earlier and there was some answer given with respect to somebody moving into Elizabeth Towers?

MR. MORRIS: The Landlord-Tenant Relations Division, most of the staff were in Elizabeth Towers, but what moved in last year was the Board. There is a hearing room. That is what moved in last year, and that will have to be relocated again; it is true.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good. What else? I had Property, Furnishings, and Equipment under Regional Services highlighted again, up from $20,000 to $37,900. We just kind of hashed that out, didn't we?

Under Vital Statistics Registry, Information Technology: the same question. It needs to be directed to another group, okay.

Crown Land, page 48, Transportation - we basically touched on the salaries already - Transportation and Communications up about $96,000. Why would that be? I mean, Crown Lands is Crown Lands. I do not think there is anything new there, is there?

MS. WAKEHAM: The increase in the operational funding is in relation to the ten new people that are being put in place and the requirement to do the additional assessments and to do the checks for the title documentation on the Grant Conversion Program.

MR. J. BYRNE: Purchased Services, up $22,000. What Purchased Services would that be?

MS WAKEHAM: We are going to have an increase in our requirements for printing and an increase in our requirement for supplies to cover -

MR. J. BYRNE: Hopefully.

MS WAKEHAM: Hopefully. This whole program, basically, the one program itself is impacting. The only thing that has changed in Crown Lands is that one program and that is why it is showing throughout some of the this. It is really in relation to our requirement to deliver that particular program.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under Surveying and Mapping, Salaries went from $484,500 to $525,300 and then back down to $484,500. Why would that be?

MS WAKEHAM: The $525,300 that is showing there is not an actual increase in terms of - what has happened is there has been a shortfall as a result of no vacancies, and consequently there hasn't been any money to cover reclassifications or to cover step increases. This is an accumulated effect that has been there that has been covered up by the whole salary vote in question. This is not actual dollars in terms of an individual body. This is an accumulated shortfall they have had as a result of their salaries.

MR. J. BYRNE: So there won't be any changes in reclassifications or anything this year coming up? Very good.

With respect to the $6.2 million - this is the last page (inaudible) - in revenues that the department is expecting to get this year, is that shown here anywhere?

MS WAKEHAM: The revenue shows up in government's overall central revenue. We have made cases in the past to be able to show that it is a self-efficient operation. The revenues go into the Consolidated Revenue Fund, they do not go into the individual departmental accounts. The revenue is showing in government's overall Consolidated Revenue, not in the department. There is, I understand, a supplement to fee increases that should show some of the different changes in the fee structures that will result in some of the contributories to the Consolidated Revenue.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, but you have revenues here in different sections going to this department.

MS WAKEHAM: The revenues that are shown right now in here are based on federal-provincial agreements, they are not based on general revenue. If you look at the geomatics agreement, that is a federal-provincial agreement. If you look at the National Safety Code that is a federal component that is in there. In terms of provincial government, we do not show revenues associated. We would actually like to be able to show revenues associated with our jobs so that we could show we are doing a good job and generating more revenue, but unfortunately that isn't the case.

MR. J. BYRNE: But under Surveying and Mapping there is Revenue - Provincial, $75,000. Under Crown Lands there is Revenue - Provincial, $180,000.

MS WAKEHAM: Yes, but that is basically the sale of maps that are purchased from the federal government that have come back. We purchase the NTS maps from the federal government and we sell them here in the Province; that is all that is.

MR. J. BYRNE: So any of the monies that you would normally have been taking in through Crown Lands over the years with respect to leases and/or grants, you know, your yearly fee or your rate, is not shown? That goes into general revenues.

MS WAKEHAM: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have a few more questions that I was prepared to ask, but I think I will save them for a later date. That is it for me, thank you.

CHAIR: Gerald.

MR. SMITH: Just a couple of quick questions, Mr. Chairman.

That one Jack just touched on, I noted as we were going through it, that was the revenue side. Just as an addition to that. With the Motor Vehicle Registration, I would assume right now that we should be generating enough revenue from that operation to look after the costs that are reflected in this budget. Would that be accurate?

MS WAKEHAM: Motor Vehicle Registration generates approximately $45 million per year to the Consolidated Revenue Fund.

MR. SMITH: Forty-five million dollars.

MS WAKEHAM: Forty-five million dollars. In fact, the department as a whole generates somewhere between $70 million and $75 million on an expenditure of roughly $20 million. So we have about a four to one ratio in terms of our revenue generation to our expenditure.

MR. SMITH: I can understand why you would want to see these figures reflected here in your budget.

MS WAKEHAM: I would certainly love to see it.

MR. SMITH: The other point that I would just want to raise with the minister, if I might, because it is an area that, certainly as a new minister, I think I would like to avail of this opportunity to raise.

Most of us, in our capacities as MHAs, receive a number of complaints with regard to Crown Lands. One of the areas is in terms of applications especially for people who are looking for permits to occupy remote cottages and things of that nature. What, in your understanding right now, is a reasonable turnaround time from the time that a person makes an application until they either have a rejection or they have received their permit?

MR. McLEAN: My understanding right now is that it is a two- or three-month period of turnaround, and that is required presently, I guess, where a number of referrals come into the office, and I guess the decision comes back into St. John's to be made. One of the areas that we are targeting in that respect is to be able to have the decision-making done in the regions with the regional office. Once the application is put in there, referrals go into that particular regional office and the decision is made there which will substantially reduce the turnaround time for decisions to be made, either yes or no.

MR. SMITH: Okay. The message I would like to give you this morning - and I speak from personal experience on this one - about a year and a half ago I decided I was going to make application for a permit to occupy and to build a cabin. The first thing I did is meet the Director of Crown Lands, and I must say the office was very supportive. We went down, went through the maps and looked at the area with the Director's understanding and that of his officials, that in the area I was looking to get a permit for there should not be a problem. I made application. Nine months passed before I received my rejection. The letter that came simply gave the reason why it was denied and: Would you please select another site and reapply again.

Now, Minister, I say to you, if you are receiving that kind of a reply, I mean that is - and I give you that message this morning because I think it is the sort of thing where our officials have to be more understanding. They are there to serve the citizens of this Province, and it is not good enough when a citizen makes an application and waits nine months for a rejection. It would not have bothered me, if I had gotten a rejection even in two months. I think that is understandable. But after nine months, then to come back with a rejection, just a terse statement, select another site and please reapply, I mean, your time is nothing. That kind of thing at the time really, really bothered me.

Now I was able to get - because I guess I have easier access to the office here. Somewhere along the way, in the change, something is breaking down when this is happening. It is not isolated. This instance here, I speak from personal experience, but I have also had a number of people who have called me and related these experiences in terms of dealing with the Crown Lands Division.

I give you that this morning because I think it is something that, as a new minister, you can take on and communicate to your officials. First and foremost, we are servants of the people of this Province, you and I and all the other officials here this morning and everyone who works for this government. I think if we had that message out there, and people see that, then all of our jobs may be a little easier.

MR. McLEAN: Certainly that is not acceptable to me either, to go through that kind of a time frame without a response. These are the things that we will be dealing with and I can assure you that I will be taking that under advisement. Hopefully, as I said, the regionalization of the actual approval itself, you know, staying in the region, in my mind, should be able to take care of a lot of that. Besides that, my understanding is we have some problems with the referral process, that some of the referral agencies and departments do not necessarily get back to the Crown Lands Branch. Therefore there is a wait on a referral that may come in. Take for instance, a cabin development along a highway, the Department of Highways - in my case, in just the last little while I have been involved in a couple of them - have not referred back in the last four months. We have to do something about that and we are in the process of doing something about that. Certainly that is an area where we will be improving the service, I can guarantee you that.

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: I get a sense that there are no more questions. So, if we could -

MR. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, I move that we move the Budget Estimates, please, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.1.05.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through to 4.1.05, carried.

On motion, Department of Government Services and Lands, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Before we move on then, could we have a motion for adoption of those minutes, with the correction that was seconded by Mr. French instead of Mr. Byrne, the last meeting.

On motion, minutes adopted, as circulated.

CHAIR: I want to thank the Minister and his staff for being here this morning and giving such detailed answers without any problems. It certainly shows how efficient you people are, and we greatly appreciate it. I want to thank the Committee members for being here.

MR. McLEAN: Just a final remark, (inaudible) and also the other information that was requested will be forwarded to the Committee, as quickly as we can.

CHAIR: I appreciate that, Mr. Minister. Thank you.

On motion, Committee adjourned.