The Committee met at 5:30 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Forsey): Good evening, everyone.

Before we start, I would just like to say for the information of any new people, normally we run for a maximum of three hours; hopefully, we will finish in less. That would be nice, but there are three hours allotted for it.

What we will do first is ask for introductions. I have a couple of more items I would like to look after but we will do introductions, starting right down at the end with Mr. Lane.

MR. LANE: Paul Lane, MHA, Mount Pearl South.

MR. RUSSELL: Keith Russell, MHA, Lake Melville.

MR. PEACH: Calvin Peach, MHA, Bellevue.

MR. MURPHY: George Murphy, MHA for St. John's East, NDP.

MR. SMITH: Daniel Smith, researcher with the NDP caucus office.

MR. LETTO: Graham Letto, researcher with the Official Opposition office.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA, Bay of Islands.

CHAIR: Clayton Forsey, Exploits, and Chair.

Before we introduce the minister and his staff, I would like to have a motion to adopt the minutes of the last Estimates meeting with Service NL on May 7. Can I have a motion to adopt the minutes?

MR. PEACH: So moved.

CHAIR: So moved by the Member for Bellevue.

Okay, can I call for the subheads before we…?

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01.

Normally what we will do is we will let the Opposition start with fifteen minutes and then we will go to George there, and back and forth. Unless you feel you want less time or something like that. We do have three hours, and if we go to that time, hopefully you can get through the headings that you want to get through in due time.

Minister, I will ask you to introduce yourself and your staff, and I must say, if you are responding to a question it would be nice to announce your name for the purpose of the boys and girls in the media room and Hansard, so as they can identify who you are when you are responding.

Minister Hedderson, if you want to introduce your staff and we will carry on with questions when you are ready.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister Tom Hedderson, Member for Harbour Main.

MR. CHIPPETT: Jamie Chippett, Deputy Minister, Transportation and Works.

MR. GOSSE: Gary Gosse, Assistant Deputy Minister for Transportation Branch.

MR. MOORES: Weldon Moores, ADM, Strategic Corporate Services, also acting ADM Marine.

MR. ANTLE: Kevin Antle, Departmental Comptroller.

MR. BOWDEN: Keith Bowden, Executive Director, Works Branch.

MS VOKEY: Sharon Vokey, Executive Assistant to the Minister.

MR. CARD: Jason Card, Director of Communications.

MS TIMMINS: Emily Timmins, Communications Manager.

CHAIR: Are you ready for questions, Minister?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, just to welcome everyone here tonight.

I know it is probably the last Estimates, and I am certainly looking forward to some questions and some discussion. In the interest of time, I am just going to open it up, because I am sure that throughout the course of the evening we will get to my budget estimates.

CHAIR: Okay. Thank you, Minister.

Eddie, we can start with you. We are starting at – I have already announced it, I believe – subhead 1.1.01.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

First of all, Minister, thank you and to all the staff for this. As I always recognize, it is the staff all throughout Western Newfoundland, Corner Brook especially that I deal with, the good job that they do. The many times that I deal with them, it is always on a professional basis and always a good working relationship. If you could pass that on to the staff, that it is well recognized and well appreciated.

Minister, I am going to ask some questions instead of going through line by line, starting out, if that is okay with you.

MR. HEDDERSON: Go ahead.

MR. JOYCE: The first thing – and you heard me ask it many times in the House of Assembly – the design of the hospital in Corner Brook, is that with your department? I am assuming it is.

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, yes. The works part of it would cover any of the buildings that are going up and any of the projects. We have been very much involved to date.

Usually, you look at it as four stages. The business case, which presented to government and the decision made to move forward with a project, followed up by pre-design. Obviously, that is the stage we are in right now. We look to Health to come forward now with the final program. Once we get to that stage, then we move on and engage the necessary consultants to do the design and move towards scoping out the work for tender. Then the construction stage begins and we move on.

Right now, we are just on the verge of moving into the design stage; henceforth, the dollars that are reflected in the budget will reflect the ability for us to carry into that stage and move forward for the coming months.

MR. JOYCE: Who is commissioned to do the design work?

MR. HEDDERSON: You can go down through the names.

OFFICIAL: The design work has –

MR. JOYCE: I just want to be fair, because I know the minister, I am after asking a lot of questions and I have been trying to get answers on this. Whatever is said here that I may be speaking about publicly, as you know, is on public record.

MR. HEDDERSON: We have nothing to hide in the sense of – this is work that has been carried out and I just want to identify. Because there are a number of consultants and companies that have been involved, both from the aspect through Western Health, through my department, and as well through the Department of Health and Community Services.

Any project of this nature – and I will mention that this is really the first major hospital that we as a government or any government has built since the Health Sciences, and obviously we want to make sure the direction we are going in is following the standard best practices that are in effect throughout the country.

With that in mind, we will just go through who has been involved to this stage.

MR. CHIPPETT: The contract for pre-design services was Hatch Mott MacDonald and they were tasked with developing a program. That is the stage we are at now, is looking for that program to be finalized, as the minister said, by our colleagues in Health. At this stage there has been no engagement of a firm to do design by government until that program is signed off.

MR. JOYCE: What is the expected date to have the design work done?

MR. HEDDERSON: It is too early to talk about the stages because that depends on our ability to move forward. The same way with the dollar value. We have to be very, very careful in pre-design until we can get into design and move forward. What usually happens is that once we get into the design stage, we will be talking about some sort of a dollar figure in the sense of plus or minus maybe 35 per cent. Then we will narrow that down to a number that is within ten. At that stage then we will be going out to tender.

Really, the design stage, depending on how quickly we can get it done, and obviously we would like for it to be done as quickly as possible, but we have to engage a company to come in and to basically lay out what is involved and then we will put a timeline on it.

I am very reluctant, Eddie– if I said six months or I said a year, I would only be guessing and on a project of this size, I would not guess.

MR. JOYCE: I would hold you to it.

It is only in the pre-design stage right now? It is not in the design –

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, again we are in transition at the end of the pre-design and ready to move – not ready yet, but we have some final touches to do to the programming to make sure that it is fitting with the business case that we began with and that we can move into what we call the design stage.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

So, there is no consultant hired yet, like for the design work yet.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, not for the –

MR. JOYCE: I just want to get it correct because I know I am going to be asked later.

MR. HEDDERSON: The pre-design work that has been completed, the program has been presented to government and it is that program now that is going to have to be looked at to make sure that it fits exactly what we want it to be.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

You cannot give a completion date.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, I will not give a completion date because, again, I would be guessing and I am not going to go there. I have learned valuable lessons that guessing in this game is not where I should be.

MR. JOYCE: Again, I am just looking for the (inaudible). I know the House was expecting it to be completed by 2017-2018. Is that realistic to be completed? We are not even in the design stage.

MR. HEDDERSON: When we are looking at the timeline, I think I am still a bit premature in going to a timeline. That would be once we get into the design stage we can talk with more certainty as to when it will be complete, and as well as to the amount of dollars it would cost.

Naturally, in moving forward in our fiscal forecast that we have, we know that this is going to be a multi-million dollar facility. In comparing it to others throughout Canada, we know it is going to be fairly extensive. It is going to be the biggest project that this government has tackled, that even the government of the Province has ever tackled. Timelines, I am very reluctant to even –

MR. JOYCE: You should tell your colleagues; they are the ones putting the timelines on it.

MR. HEDDERSON: What is that?

MR. JOYCE: Your colleagues are the ones putting the timeline on it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes indeed, but delays happen in these projects. Sometimes we need to put a pause button on to make sure that the direction that we are taking – this is not simply four walls. This is a regional hospital.

MR. JOYCE: Can I ask when you started the pre-design work? How long ago did you start the pre-design work?

MR. CHIPPETT: I believe it was 2009 when Hatch Mott MacDonald was engaged. I can check on that date. I am pretty sure, though, it was in the year 2009.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

As you know it is a big issue out in Corner Brook and people were expecting it to be started by now, and not by you, Minister, or anybody in your department –

MR. HEDDERSON: As you know, the same way we can talk about the Labrador West hospital that we put up, and that is the closest that we have done to putting up a hospital. Graham probably realizes that there were some delays with the land and so on and so forth. These things happen.

As well, you know that we are ahead with the land. Pennecon went out and won the tender to do the levelling, or the scoping, or whatever of that. We have gotten that much further ahead, and I think we are up to about $17 million now of what we put in.

It is the same old story, the more that you can frontload and get closer to where you need to be, the easier it is in the construction stage then to carry it out. If you get into the construction stage and you have not done the homework on the pre-design into the design, that is when you start to get into major – because you have to take steps backward.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, I am going to go on another topic that I brought up: the ferry replacement.

MR. HEDDERSON: Oh, yes.

MR. JOYCE: Marystown with Kiewit, can you give us any more information of where that is at now, the cost that is in dispute?

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically when you look at where we are – and I laid it out a couple of weeks ago to the media and to the general public – there were two aspects of the snag or the stop, or the pause or whatever you want to call it that got us in the negotiations. The first part of it, Kiewit have come back and indicated they are ready to move forward off the adjustment. Basically it is settled but not settled in the sense there are some conditions. Part of it is that we settle on the boat. What it is, there is an adjustment they have asked for, and in the contract they have every right to go to arbitration. They wanted that to stay.

Basically, we are moving forward. We have agreement in principle on a settlement on the adjustment. Now we have to go into the second stage which is to sit down and negotiate the price for the third, and the contract for it to move forward. We are very optimistic. With regard to it, negotiations have not finished on either part of it, but we are moving forward. Hopefully it will be done in a timely fashion so we can come back and report.

MR. JOYCE: You do not want to divulge the amount?

MR. HEDDERSON: No, I am not going to, simply because the negotiations have not been completed. We have an agreement and that agreement allowed us to move to stage two, which is now negotiate for the boat. Then the two of them will come together and we can release the details.

MR. JOYCE: I am going to get back to the hospital for one more second because I do not want any confusion here. I asked at least ten or fifteen questions on this hospital and the answer I got – and I have it marked down – is this $1 million will complete the design of the hospital. What I am being told here is that all we are in is the pre-design and we have not even started the actual design of the hospital yet.

Am I correct in that?

MR. HEDDERSON: What you look at, at this stage, is that you have to have the program. The program is the heart or the framework.

MR. JOYCE: I understand that.

MR. HEDDERSON: The program has to be dead-on before we even start to put up walls, concepts, or whatever. That is the big part that has to be done and has to be settled on. That is not done yet.

MR. JOYCE: That is the pre-design?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but you end up out of the pre-design with the program for that hospital. From that program then you can start making: how many operating rooms, how many waiting rooms, and all that sort of thing.

MR. JOYCE: I understand that. I am just trying to be –

MR. HEDDERSON: That is going to be carried out in this fiscal year and the $1 million will make sure that happens.

MR. JOYCE: The pre-design, but the design work has not even started yet on the hospital.

MR. HEDDERSON: We have to put a consultant in place before (inaudible) –

MR. JOYCE: Oh, no, I agree with you. I am not arguing with you. I am just telling you the questions I asked. This is why it is very important. The people who are asking me out in Corner Brook are telling me that the design work has not started yet. Now it is being confirmed that they are still in the pre-design phase.

MR. HEDDERSON: There is pre-design work and there is design work.

MR. JOYCE: That's right, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The design work now will take that program and basically build a hospital around it.

MR. JOYCE: I agree, yes. That is different from what I have been getting. Yes, okay.

The other issue, Minister, is once we get the issue straightened out with Marystown – which I hope you do by the way, and keep going at it and get it done – what is the timeline to build the other ferries in the Province?

MR. HEDDERSON: First of all, look at the sizes of them. The third one, we are talking about a medium-size one, right.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: We know that Kiewit has already built two of them, and the third one should be the gravy part of it in the sense that – now there might be some changes, because you learn lessons in the first one, the second one. Like the Comm could be moved a foot over so you get better view of the back as well as the front.

Also, we always have the opportunity of maybe lengthening it out a little bit because on St. Brendan's, for example, we discovered that the size fits the number there, no problem, but we missed being able to take a mobile home over by so many feet. Again, we might entertain the part of maybe lengthening it a bit but those are modifications that would be no problem. That should roll out as smoothly as anything because with two already in the water we do not anticipate any.

The small ones, five for the South Coast and one for Labrador, they are in design stage right now. They will be finished up – correct me if I am wrong, Jamie – by, I think, the end of November of this year. We are approaching that one a little bit different than the Winsor. Just put the Winsor aside, that is the large one.

What we are trying to do with the small boats is to make sure that we are encouraging shipbuilding in the small yards. We asked for expressions of interest already –

MR. JOYCE: In Newfoundland?

MR. HEDDERSON: In Newfoundland, and I think – are there two shipyards that responded?

OFFICIAL: There are actually three, Minister.

MR. HEDDERSON: I will not name them or anything but there are three shipyards, and it is not Marystown. There are three, other than Marystown, that were interested in building one or more of these boats. We have looked at them and our consultant has gone back to them and said: okay, in order for you to be able to do it you need this type of lift, you need this type of space, you need this, that and the other thing, to give them the time to get ready for when we probably, in the New Year, put out not only expressions of interest, but actually a tender or an RFP.

What would we be putting out, Weldon?

MR. MOORES: (Inaudible) because they are so far designed.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, it would be a tender because it is already scoped out. They are all going to be the same, except the Labrador one would have more ice strengthening for the fact that, as opposed to the South Coast.

MR. JOYCE: When is the timeline, do you expect? Again, I am not holding you to it.

MR. HEDDERSON: What would happen if one or two, or three of them bid – some bid for two, some bid for one, some bid for six, and that sort of thing. We will have to work our way through that. The six of them – well with three shipyards, obviously three of them could be built concurrently if the three of them are – or one might take two, and one after the other.

Once we get it in the shipyard, have we any concept of the time it would take, because it would be a guesstimate again?

MR. MOORES: Yes, you do what you said. It is difficult to confirm because it depends on how many, or what part of a boat the shipyard bids on.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. MOORES: We do not know that yet.

MR. HEDDERSON: What we have also done is – they are all the same propulsion systems, they are all the same electrical, they are all the same navigation gear and that sort of thing, so we are tendering that out. As a government, we tender that out and we will be providing all of that. Basically, what the shipyards will be doing will be building the hull and putting all the components together.

MR. JOYCE: It is not a fixed date to have them built, but is there a time you are hoping to have them out in the water, all of the boats? All the – I know it is tough.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, it will depend on who gets them. Let's say the three of them are there now and qualified to do it, maybe only one would bid. Then I would have to come back to you and say: Listen, it is going to take probably three times as long now to get those boats in the water as opposed to the three of them doing it.

When the tender goes out, and that will go out in the New Year, we are very, very hopeful that – to build a boat, usually you are talking years, not months.

MR. JOYCE: Two or three years, yes.

CHAIR: Excuse me, Eddie.

I know fifteen minutes does not seem very long sometimes, but I think we have gone over a little bit.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. That is fine.

Thank you.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

We will hold it on the Winsor. We will stop there and go on to George, but just hold it and we will come back to the Winsor, unless there is agreement for me to finish this up and then we will go on. It does not matter to me –

CHAIR: We will have time to do it after.

MR. HEDDERSON: - but George is chomping at the bit there.

CHAIR: What I was going to say is generally in Estimates –

MR. HEDDERSON: I will leave it up to the Chair, sorry.

CHAIR: - we try to get through the subheads first and then some general questions at the end, but it is your time. You choose it as you wish. I just wanted to let you know that. It is not your first time, Eddie.

George, do you want to have a go?

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, sir.

First off, I guess, thank you very much to the staff for coming out here. I know it is a beautiful evening and everything. I know that you have a tremendous department to try to keep ahead of. I want to thank you for your efforts.

I know with twenty-one pages of data here in the Estimates book, I have to say that three hours, Mr. Chair, I do not think it is going to do it because I think we have a lot of questions as regards to the numbers that are being kicked around there. I would like to make that note, that possibly we can go a little bit past that particular time if need be.

I will not be asking any questions of anybody over there if the Liberals have already asked the question, unless I have kind of a supplementary question to align or something. That is the process that I would like to go through. I will start off with a couple of questions as regards to general policy for the department first before I start getting into line items.

You mentioned the Corner Brook hospital, and as far as I know through history that was mentioned by a former Health Minister. I think that it might have been Tom Osborne at the time. That goes back a long way, that Corner Brook announcement for the hospital. I think the year might have been 2006, this is now 2012. We are talking about seven years and we still have a hospital in the design work stage.

I would like to get a comment basically on the timeline. Seven years for designing of a hospital I do not think should be acceptable by anybody. Is there anybody there who can answer the question as regard to…?

MR. HEDDERSON: Was it 2007?

MR. MURPHY: 2007?

OFFICIAL: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: We are talking six years then for the announcement of a hospital and then actually kick starting this hospital and getting a cinderblock down on the ground here. Is there some reason why there was a six-year delay between the formal announcement of the hospital and the actual design work taking place?

MR. HEDDERSON: First of all, it has to be done right. I will tell you that right upfront. There are some times that we have to step backwards because it is not working out to be where we need it to be. Usually there is an announcement done. Probably a Blue Book commitment was involved there in that election, and then it unfolds. You put things in place and you drive it as much as you can.

There has to be consultation. Remember, it is not only the government just taking it and saying we are going to build a hospital, it goes back to Western Health. Western Health takes it then and basically they have to present to government what they see as necessary. That is consultations with the community, and that is consultations with the medical people who are involved in the hospital.

All of these consultations take place. Then they are collated, looked at, and then they move forward. That is where we are today. We are moving it along and doing what we need to do. Again, when it comes to a project of this size, it has to be done right.

MR. MURPHY: I tend to think that I would agree with you on the aspect that it has to be done right; I am just wondering why it took six years to do it. I do not think it was made either during an election campaign, I think that was a formal announcement.

MR. HEDDERSON: We are thinking – I do not have it in front of me but we can go back over it and we can have this another time.

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: I was not there at the beginning, to be honest with you. I came in three years ago, and this is a priority for this government. We are moving it forward as a priority, but even with priorities we do not circumvent any of the stages, and sometimes we have to go back over stages to make sure we have it right.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, and I trust that the department would do that right. I just have a question about the six-year time frame. Again, we are hearing announcements for the announcements of the former announcements. So, as regards to that, that is fine and dandy, I am good with that answer.

The second question would have to be direct concerns about the ferry replacement program, because I know the ferry replacement program, again, we are dealing with tie-ups as regards to Kiewit. Are we going to be dealing with – I know that the old stories are out there, that there were flaws in design and there were warnings from the people who were putting the ferry together.

MR. HEDDERSON: Excuse me, flaws in the design?

MR. MURPHY: Apparently, there were flaws in the design. That is the word that I get. Under requirements, for example, for –

MR. HEDDERSON: This goes back to what we were just talking about. Before we get into the construction stage, we have to make sure that from pre-design to design is – and the ferries are no different from what I just described. What happened there was that we had consultants that did the pre-design and then into the design, and there was a period of time, when Kiewit took the contract, that they went back over it and they identified areas. Between the officials and the consultants, we came to a design that we felt was adequate. It was only then that the keel was put down and we begin.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, but part of that process, was that not a flaw in the design that Kiewit had warnings about at that particular time?

MR. HEDDERSON: You do not talk about flaws in design, what you talk about is making sure that the design suits the waters, making sure that the design suits the infrastructure that we are putting it in, and it follows from the business case that we put in as a ferry with so much capacity in a particular part of Newfoundland and Labrador with the right.

Of course, Kiewit wanted to make sure that the work that had been done, that they had nothing to do with; they had to go back over all that work and move it along. You are familiar with construction, I am sure. We have contingencies that are built in, and in any construction job there are change orders. I think we ended up initially with something like sixty change orders as we started to design the boat – as we started to construct the boat, I should say.

MR. MURPHY: That is what I am getting at.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: That was the problem that Kiewit had to keep on coming back. So that is part of the reasons for the cost overruns?

MR. HEDDERSON: That is natural with any project.

When you are building a boat – and we knew when we built into it, and we talked with Kiewit in indicating that the first one was going to be the most difficult one, because the expertise for building ferries was lost. We had not built a ferry in Newfoundland and Labrador since 199, so that was a stretch there. We were putting three of the same ones in. We realized and we worked very closely to make sure of that first one that we were moving along. You move along, a bit of plate is put on, you check it, look at it, and say: Oh my God, that should have been that much. So you have to go back over it. The first one was a challenge. Kiewit rose to the challenge, as did the workforce in Marystown.

MR. MURPHY: What I am asking you in a nutshell: Was that part of the reason for the cost overrun and the argument between Kiewit and government?

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, you are asking me now to go back over negotiations and so on, which I am not going to do. I will tell you that we did have a contingency. We worked closely with Kiewit and any change orders that were necessary were done. If it was our responsibility, we took responsibility; if it was theirs, they took responsibility.

There were delays. As a matter of fact, there was a delay in getting the boat out; but we were understanding, because we would push the date forward when we realized Kiewit could not deliver. It was because we understood it was a great big learning experience. We wanted to make sure that boat came out and that boat was the boat we wanted.

MR. MURPHY: That is fine and dandy. I did not mean for you to go on that far with it.

I will ask you a couple of line items for now. Line 1.2.02, Administrative Support, line 01, Salaries – from $1,085,600, you showed an increase in Salaries for that year, and along with that a projected increase in your budgeted Salaries for this year.

MR. HEDDERSON: You can go ahead, Jamie.

MR. CHIPPETT: Is that 1.2.01, correct?

MR. MURPHY: It is 1.2.02, line 01.

MR. CHIPPETT: So you are asking about the change in the salary vote, correct?

MR. MURPHY: The change in Salaries, yes.

MR. CHIPPETT: The difference in 2011-2012 between the budgeted amount and the revised amount was due to severance payments. In 2012-2013 you would have step increases. I would suspect as we go through the evening we will repeat ourselves a little bit in that the department salary plan is fairly flexible from year to year. Obviously the number of projects and the number of workers assigned to projects varies depending on the progress of projects and so on. It is really just an allocation of dollars that matches up with the particular need in that salary vote and in other instances it will be less, but for largely the same reason.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you.

Line 03 in the same section, Transportation and Communications, I noticed $204,300 budgeted and you spent $152,400 and the amount is just off a little bit from the 2011-2012 to 2012-2013 budget at $202,300. Can we get an explanation on that line?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is basically travel. Again, it is an indication of the need in a particular year. It is basically static between the two budget years, but we spent less in 2011-2012.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect.

Line 06, Purchased Services, I noticed $221,800 in 2011-2012 against $191,800 in the 2012-2013 Estimates. I wonder if you can explain to me what you would be using for Purchased Services.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is advertising, promotion, printing costs and so on.

MR. MURPHY: Advertising through any particular media, besides printing costs (inaudible) –

MR. CHIPPETT: Really, anybody who would run our moose-vehicle campaign ads, as an example.

MR. MURPHY: So that is where we would find that?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is where you would find some of it.

MR. MURPHY: That is where you would find some of it. Okay, perfect.

Strategic Human Resource Management, 1.2.03, line 01, I guess is already self-explanatory as regards to the Salaries. It is probably step increments, that sort of thing, wage increases.

MR. CHIPPETT: Yes, and part of it is the salary plan adjustments, as well.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

I noticed a huge amount of Employee Benefits here in this line, line 02.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is workers' compensation claims; that would all be run through our Human Resources Branch.

MR. MURPHY: That is a lot of money there.

Transportation and Communications, line 03, the amount $67,700 was spent against an actual of $39,800, but again there is $39,800 only budgeted for this year.

MR. CHIPPETT: I do not know the specific details, other than to say it would have been for increased travel. Our HR people look after our Occupational Health and Safety requirements. They look after things like training for our snowplow operators for schools and so on. So there would be some travel involved, and there would have been a greater need, obviously, in that year. I do not have specifics in terms of –

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Can we get a breakdown of the transportation costs for that particular section? Is that possible?

MR. CHIPPETT: Sure, yes.

MR. MURPHY: Again, in this section, Strategic Human Resource Management, line 04 Supplies, $60,000 worth against a budgeted $4,500.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is increased requirements for office and training supplies.

MR. MURPHY: Do you have a listing of where those offices would be? It sounds like a classroom of some kind or something.

MR. CHIPPETT: We have an HR training room in Transportation and Works, but I would imagine some of that training material would be for snow schools. We run those all around the Province.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. Again, that would be connected to the above line item, the $67,700 there. We will get a breakdown of that. That is fine for that section.

Subhead 1.2.04 Policy, Planning and Evaluation, I notice a difference of about $35,200 in Salaries, lower than what it was budgeted for last year, $533,500 for this year. Line 01, 1.2.04 Policy, Planning and Evaluation.

MR. CHIPPETT: That would be adjustments, again, within the salary plan. The lower amount for revised in 2011-2012 was due to some vacancies in that division. The higher number in 2012-2013 reflects the actual salary expenditures; no reduction in the numbers, but sometimes we pay for people in Policy and Planning out of other areas in the department, depending on the projects they are engaged in.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Just down at the bottom there, line 10 Grants and Subsidies, $50,000 for this year, $294,000 spent for last year. I am wonder if I can get any explanation as regards to that one?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is a reduction in our grants. The particular grant that was reduced in that case was the grant that is usually given to the Grand Concourse Authority.

MR. MURPHY: The Grand Concourse Authority has lost money in this year's budget, according to that.

MR. CHIPPETT: Their grant is the reduction in that line item.

MR. MURPHY: Did they lose a lot of money overall in the budget?

MR. HEDDERSON: (Inaudible) that is the only thing I am responsible for.

MR. MURPHY: Just as regards to Transportation and Works. That is the only place where you can answer for. Okay.

I guess I will switch over to policy. I will leave the numbers for now. Just a question as regards to the government fleet of vehicles; you obviously keep an inventory of fleet vehicles, the grey cars, hybrid vehicles. I am not talking about the flex fuel vehicles now. The flex fuel vehicles are completely separate from hybrid vehicles. Hybrid vehicles, of course, are the mixed gas-electric.

MR. GOSSE: On hybrid vehicles, we have somewhere in the mid-thirties.

MR. MURPHY: Thirty-odd vehicles. How are they working out?

MR. GOSSE: We are seeing savings in fuel on the SUV type vehicles, and on the newer true hybrid car vehicles we are seeing savings in fuel, significant savings.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

So, it is only about thirty vehicles right now. Overall, Minister, how many vehicles in the government fleet that you would be dealing with?

MR. GOSSE: It is about 800 light vehicles in the government fleet now.

MR. MURPHY: Just 800 vehicles. How many tractors and that sort of thing? Do you have a complete inventory of it?

MR. HEDDERSON: Vehicles or automobiles, trucks or equipment? You are looking for equipment.

MR. MURPHY: Yes. Equipment is equipment, vehicles are vehicles, whatever burns gas.

MR. GOSSE: In the equipment, there is between 400 and 500 pieces of heavy equipment and about 800 light vehicles.

MR. MURPHY: Is that number relatively constant? Because I know there was an effort some time ago, a number of years ago now, that government was trying to reduce the number of vehicles it had at one particular point in time.

MR. GOSSE: That has been relatively stable over the last number of years.

MR. MURPHY: It has been stable. So we can get a perfect count on how many vehicles and everything that are out there.

The other question I had is with regard to the vehicles and everything that are out there. I think Transportation and Works is probably responsible for things as well in the government inventory, like ATVs and that sort of thing. Do you have a listing of ATVs, snowmobiles that various government workers would be using, for example, Wildlife, et cetera?

MR. GOSSE: We do have a listing. Those vehicles are not in our department, but we do have a listing of all the ATVs, snowmobiles, that are in the government fleet.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. So that is separate from Transportation and Works all together.

MR. GOSSE: It is in our inventory, but they are not located physically in our department. They are primarily in Environment and Natural Resources.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

CHAIR: Excuse me.

George, we are gone over a couple of minutes.

MR. MURPHY: All right, okay. Go ahead.

CHAIR: So, we will go back to –

MR. HEDDERSON: (Inaudible) next budget, obviously, we are the conduit for providing vehicles for the rest of government. They come through us and we have standing orders.

CHAIR: Before we go back to Mr. Joyce, I remind the responders to say who they are when they are responding. Sometimes they cannot find you with their lights as well.

Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, sir, I will just give you an opportunity there on the Earle Winsor. It was mentioned about the flaws. From my understanding, and you can explain, it is more of a design change as you go ahead during construction.

MR. HEDDERSON: When you are coming out of pre-design – with regard to design for boats, you have to put that out to agencies that would look at it.

Weldon, can you just talk a little bit about that?

MR. MOORES: After pre-design on the vessel we will put it to a classification society. They will come back with certain suggestions, some are mandatory, some are just suggestions. We will make a decision which ones if they are discretionary, and they could get incorporated in the final design.

Once you go to final design and start construction, as the minister said, sometimes as you are building it you find an oversight and there is an adjustment needed as you progress. That is why we have contingencies in our estimates to cover that.

MR. JOYCE: It was not a design flaw; it was change of design along the way.

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, when you are building that boat for the first time, and there were great concerns naturally, and sometimes you are taking a step forward and have to take a step back. There is a lot of work, and that is the front-loading again. As you can see with the Winsor – and I will get Weldon to talk about the Winsor again, just to go through where we are, and that might give you a better picture of how we are getting to the design.

Weldon, can you just take us through that?

MR. MOORES: There are different ways you can approach the construction of a vessel. You can do pre-design and then go to a yard to complete detailed design.

In the case of the Winsor, what we have done is we have decided to go to full detailed design. We had a consultant to do a preliminary design and then we have gone ahead and put the pre-design through the classification society. Based on the comments that have come back, we have asked the consultant to do a full detailed design. In this case, when we are ready to go to the yard it is basically a construction tender that we will be looking for, the design will be complete.

Now, that said, as you proceed through construction you may need to make some changes. You might have second thoughts, like the minister said earlier: Oh, look, we have built it for a mobile home that is say twelve feet wide and now they are making them thirteen feet wide. Again, there can be always contingencies and slight adjustments as you go through the construction process.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, Minister, you explained that. Are you all right? Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: What is that?

MR. JOYCE: Are you all right? No, I just wanted to give you the – about where it flaws as it changed design, it is a big difference.

Another question – and I have been bringing this up for a long, long while – is twenty-four hour snow clearing. When I say twenty-four-hour snow clearing, I do not mean to have staff on twenty-four hours. It is to have the ability to have someone called in. I will just use the Bay of Islands, for example. If people have to go to work at the hospital and they leave, say, 5:30 or 6:00 o'clock and it is snowing that night and there is a lot of snow, a lot of times they cannot make it, or they run into major problems or they have to wait for the tractor.

Can anybody give me a cost estimate of what it would cost for those eight or ten days of the year where you can call staff in to do snow clearing, instead of having to wait for the tractor to go 6:00, 7:00 or 8:00 in the morning?

MR. HEDDERSON: I am going to get Gary to talk about the operations, because he is more familiar with the operations. Supervisors do have flexibility with an impending storm coming and so on, and Gary will talk a little bit about that. The weather forecasts these days are pretty spot-on. As well, the midday shift that is in, if there is a snowstorm pending, the supervisor, again, can basically make the decision to hold on to some of the plows so that we can continue on.

Gary, if you just go down, I think you know –

MR. JOYCE: I do not mean to interrupt you, but in your own manual, which I have a copy of, it says that they have to be off by 9:30 o'clock unless they are in the high-density areas. I know the Bay of Islands – and I use the Bay of Islands, because I am very familiar – 9:30 o'clock, they are off the road. Snow coming, storm coming –

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, I will just get Gary to go through the operations, because there are times when there is an emergency, for example, and you need an ambulance down at the Bay of Islands at 3:00 in the morning, the RCMP or the ambulance driver is responding, and all they have to do is pick up the phone and there is a plow dispatched to go down. That is just the way that we do it and we have done forever.

MR. GOSSE: Our normal time frame for operations for our snowplow operators is 5:30 in the morning until 9:30 in the evening; that is correct. If, at 9:30 in the evening, we were in the middle of a snowstorm all day, the snow is stopped and we are cleaning up, the operators will continue to work until it is cleaned up. If it is still snowing and it is going to snow on through the night, we send them home to get some rest so they can be back safe to operate again at 5:30 the next morning.

So, if the end is in sight and we are cleaning up, they stay, and the supervisors have full authority to do that. They do not need to seek anybody else's approval; they have that authority. If it is continuing to snow, the guys go home, take a break, and come back at 5:30 in the morning. As the minister said if we are gone home and there is a call from a medical practitioner at 3:00 in the morning who says we need to get an ambulance or a fire truck has to go, we respond immediately.

MR. JOYCE: I do not mean to argue with you, Gary, but I can tell you (inaudible) 9:30 at night the operators are in that depot. I can assure you, I went up there myself and watched them haul in, snow coming down. If that is the department policy, like the minister said, if there is snow coming, they can stay on or if the foreman has that flexibility, I can assure you that the foremen in the depots do not have that memo sent down – I assure you of that.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is not a memo. This has been a practice. Again, I stand corrected but –

MR. JOYCE: No, the practice is, and it is even in the handbook, that at 9:30 p.m., off the road.

MR. GOSSE: I think that what you said there a minute ago was key. You said you were at the depot and the snow was continuing to come down. Like I said, if it is still snowing and there is no end in sight, they go home and rest for 5:30 the next morning. If it is stopped and we are in the cleanup mode, they clean up before they go home.

MR. JOYCE: No, 9:30 p.m. no matter what. I am not here to argue with you, but I have seen it and the thing with it – and this is very important to me because I know a couple of people who went off the road just last year up on Hughes Brook hill. I do not know if you are familiar with it. It is big hill coming off the North Shore.

The problem with it was there was no snow but a lot of ice and the truck was going down one way, all the traffic was coming this way, and two vehicles went of the road. I know the two people who went off the road – they called me – because the salt and the sand truck did not go all night. They come on again 5:30 or 6:00 a.m. By the time they get there at 6:00 or 6:30 a.m., people going to work for 6:30 or 7:00 a.m. are coming this way and it is not done.

My question to you, Minister, is: Can anybody give me a breakdown for those ten nights or twelve nights in the run of the year on the West Coast, what it would cost to call in those extra staff to ensure that if someone is coming home at 10:00 at night like from the mill – a prime example is the mill in Corner Brook – or from the hospital, if they are going home after 9:30 p.m. and it was snowing, if they are going home at 12:00 p.m. and it was snowing since 9:00 p.m., the road conditions are unsafe.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but again the driving public know or should know the hours of operation that we have.

MR. JOYCE: They do.

MR. HEDDERSON: When it comes to 9:30 p.m. there is a judgement call that can be made by the local supervisor as to whether to hold on, to send them home as usual or whatever. That has been the practice throughout the Province and we adhere to that. If you are making individual incidents, I cannot comment on them, but I do know, and Gary has just reiterated that it is the way we operate.

MR. JOYCE: Is there any way to look at it and see if you can change it or see what it would cost to change it?

MR. HEDDERSON: It is not a matter of cost. We can give you a costing on it. We have a base budget that we use to take care of our 5:00 a.m. to 9:30 p.m. or 5:30 a.m. to 9:30 p.m. and we also make provision for those times when there would be – there is a fair bit of overtime involved with maintaining our roads in the wintertime and we make provision for that as well.

MR. JOYCE: Can you give me a cost or can you do up the extra cost it would be?

MR. HEDDERSON: You are just looking for your depot out in Little Bay Islands or the Province?

MR. JOYCE: The Bay of Islands, not Little Bay of Islands. That is a different one.

MR. HEDDERSON: You had me on the ferries, see. Scratch that, whoever is there. I am sorry about that, Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: If you can, just what it would cost because it is a big issue. Bay of Islands goes fifty kilometres one way and forty kilometres the other way after 9:30 at night, especially if it is late at night.

That brings me into the other thing, Mr. Chair. I did not know you were Chair. My understanding of the snow clearing now is it goes into Botwood. For example, it goes from Corner Brook to Deer Lake now, twenty-four-hour snow clearing to the airport in Deer Lake. Apparently it is done on the amount of traffic.

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, the pilot project was three years ago, I think it was. Three or four –

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: It was closer to four years ago, and from that pilot project we had to go forward last year with the results of that. It was a very successful program for the areas we were doing. We used that as a base and also asked for an enhancement last year. We looked at the traffic flows and there were a couple areas in and around the city here: Outer Ring Road, Veterans Memorial, and CBS. We were able to enhance it to that degree last year. This year we looked at it and of course, given the Budget year it was, we are sticking to base and no enhancements this year.

MR. JOYCE: Is the road being cleared to Botwood now?

MR. HEDDERSON: It always was. That was part of it. We did not take any of the originals off. I do not think we did. Whatever we used for the pilot, that stayed, and we have only enhanced it.

MR. JOYCE: Botwood was only added last year.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, you are incorrect there.

MR. JOYCE: It was not? Okay, sorry.

Can someone forward to me after the traffic flow for Botwood as compared to, say, Port aux Basques? God bless Botwood, and I think they deserve it, too, but how someone can tell me that people getting off the ferries 12:00 o'clock at night, that there is not more traffic going – and I use Port aux Basques because I know Andrew wrote you on that. You cannot say that more people are coming from Port aux Basques on a regular basis to Deer Lake than (inaudible) Trans Canada-Highway to Botwood.

MR. HEDDERSON: We provided the numbers to Andrew, but we can certainly provide them to you.

MR. JOYCE: Can you provide them for me also for Corner Brook?

I can explain why Corner Brook, and I will pass it on just after this question, Mr. Chair. If you use the Lewin Parkway in Corner Brook - and people are familiar -the Lewin Parkway is almost like the Ring Road here, in Corner Brook. It comes on the other part.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, I am very familiar.

MR. JOYCE: The Lewin Parkway is done. On both ends of the Lewin Parkway is the Bay of Islands. It starts, none of it is done. So people have to – 4:00 o'clock comes and if they are catching a flight in Deer Lake, they have to go from Cox's Cove over from Lark Harbour to come up that fifty kilometres until they hit the Lewin Parkway and then it is all done. It is amazing to me why – the traffic flow, because there is no one who can tell me that there is not as much traffic coming out of the Curling part as it is Botwood.

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, the numbers will show you that basically –

MR. JOYCE: Port aux Basques over there –

MR. HEDDERSON: If you go back to the basic pilot project, the decision was made to include whatever sections of road were included. Like I said, we got the go ahead from the government last year to continue that on a permanent basis. As I pointed out, every year we review it.

Last year we reviewed it and there were high traffic areas that needed to be included, which we did, given the money that we could garner this year, as I pointed out. You will see throughout my estimates that it is basically base budget for me right now. This year, even though there might be a couple that we could add on – and I will not say which ones because it is all guided by the traffic flow.

MR. JOYCE: Can I get a copy of the phone numbers, the numbers for Port aux Basques to –

MR. HEDDERSON: The traffic numbers?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: The same with Botwood, and any around Corner Brook that you have, please.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, we can provide that.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will step aside and let –

CHAIR: No, that is okay. You are doing good.

George.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to come back to the vehicles again in the government inventory. Can we have a list of the total inventory numbers that we have, like a breakdown as regards to cars, trucks, vans, that sort of thing? If you could make that available to us it would be great.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: I want to come back to Snow and Ice Control, section 2.1.04, page 6.7 in the Estimates book. Salaries, line 01, went from $18,268,400 down to $17,114,700. It is a drop of over $1 million with about $600,000 less than what was actually spent in the department this year. I would like to get an explanation on that line, 2.1.04.01.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is actually a correction based on having, in this case, too many salary dollars under winter maintenance and not enough under summer maintenance. Under the summer maintenance category you will see a corresponding increase in the budget numbers there. So, the amount for the winter and summer maintenance, from a salary perspective, is the same, but it is a correction to indicate the actual salary dollars in winter versus summer maintenance.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

This is winter, so where would we find the summer maintenance number, then? In the book, or are we going to have to find that line by line here, do you think?

Oh, there you go, right above there, okay. That explains the difference up there between 2.1.03, because I also had a question on line 01 there, in that section for salaries. So that explains the discrepancy.

MR. CHIPPETT: Yes, that is correct.

MR. MURPHY: All right, okay. Perfect, that is great.

As well, we will stick to 2.1.03 Maintenance and Repairs. At the same time, while everybody's finger is on that section; Transportation and Communications, $146,400 was budgeted, $207,400 was actually spent. I wonder if you can give me a breakdown or an explanation on the Transportation and Communications number there.

MR. CHIPPETT: You will see this in a few places. It is difficult to predict exactly in the run of a year where our roads employees will have to go for maintenance or for snow clearing and so on. So, there is often some variability in what we actually budget and what we spend, because certain elements of our operations we simply cannot predict the conditions in advance.

MR. MURPHY: That should be worker travel from one area to the other, that sort of thing?

MR. CHIPPETT: Right.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Line 06 Purchased Services, $3.512 million basically in 2011-2012 budget, the actual that was spent was $4.4 million, plus change, and the budgeted amount for Purchased Services for 2012-2013 is going to be well up. I wonder if I could get an explanation there on line 06.

MR. GOSSE: That is largely to do with the change in maintenance operations on the Trans-Labrador Highway, as we get into things and there is more paved and so on. Their maintenance activity has changed somewhat. That is a reflection of, primarily, the change in activities on the Trans-Labrador Highway.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so more people are working up there and that sort of thing?

MR. GOSSE: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

While we are on the Trans-Labrador Highway topic, I do have a question as regards to – the Auditor General had some concerns as regards to the inspection of bridges. A lot of these bridges were particularly up in Labrador.

I wonder if we could get an explanation as to what the department has done to clarify the inspection of bridges and such up on the Trans-Labrador Highway, the construction areas.

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, when we look at the inspection of the bridges, we do have a regiment that we follow. I am going to pass it down the line to go into that. Sometimes we are challenged, especially with regard to the seasons.

In Labrador, in particular, weather closes in a lot quicker. Of course, we come back then immediately in the spring. By the time you get to the fall, if there are a couple of bridges that need to be done, that they are looked at to make sure there is nothing particular. Then in the spring you would follow up with it.

Gary or Jamie, do you want to go through bridges? Do you want bridges in general, too?

MR. MURPHY: Well, yes. It is just a bridges question, but at the same time to quantify your last remarks, one of those bridges I think that he mentioned in the report did not see an inspection for four years. I think it was four years he mentioned in the Auditor General's report. I wish I had it in front of me now.

MR. GOSSE: I do not know which one would have been four years, if there was one that was four years. Actually, at the time the Auditor General's report was done there were two bridges that were not inspected.

MR. MURPHY: There were two bridges that were missed?

MR. GOSSE: No, by the time – it was late in the fall, and there was ice and so on around bridges. We would not send our employees down around to do inspections when it was not safe. As soon as that ice is gone now in the spring, those last two bridges will be done.

MR. MURPHY: How long does it take to inspect a bridge?

MR. GOSSE: The two bridges that are left are fairly large bridges. They will probably take half a day or so each.

MR. MURPHY: We are talking, I think it was twenty-nine bridges in Labrador, basically, that were missed I think it was, in the Auditor General's report. I am just trying to remember now.

MR. GOSSE: Most of those have been done. The data had not been put into our system when he did his review. There were two bridges that were not inspected.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. We are just basically playing catch-up with data?

MR. GOSSE: We are playing catch-up right now with the last two bridges.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, all right.

So we will have some answers to that one, I guess, at the end of it all and see how you are doing with it next year.

Thanks for the answer, by the way; it is great to know.

Heading 2.1.04, I want to come back to Snow and Ice Control. I had a question as regards to one or two more lines here in this particular section. Line 04, Supplies, I take it that might be salt or equipment acquisitions. There was $23,339,000 budgeted for this year, it was $21,982,000 that was budgeted in 2011-2012, and the actual that was spent was $25,283,000.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is indeed salt and sand. The explanation for 2011-2012 is we were able to stockpile some salt at the end of the year and store for next year. It also reflects that fact that we had more roads to deal with, particularly with the increased paving of the Trans-Labrador Highway.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect, okay.

Next, Purchased Services, Line 06, there is a discrepancy in the numbers by $2.3 million between the budget of 2011-2012 and the actual that was spent, and the actual that is budgeted for this year, I guess, is $9.1 million, as well.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is the same rationale Gary mentioned earlier in terms of the type of work changing and, in particular, between the summer and winter maintenance period for the Trans-Labrador Highway. There is also some additional funding in terms of 2012-2013 for contract increases.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

I want to ask you a general question when it comes to salt and sand purchases: Are you finding that you need less, in recent years? Well, just as a sign, with of changing weather patterns and everything, I know there has been some moderation in the weather lately, but has there been a change as regards to the quantities the department is using?

MR. HEDDERSON: You have to understand that even though we did not have the snow, it is wintertime, and there is an obligation every morning for the run to be done, and oftentimes a layer of sand in anticipation of freezing temperatures or whatever. So, in actual fact, I think we used more sand this year than we did – no, more salt. Would you say more salt? Of course, you would have to take in to account that the Trans-Labrador Highway may have added a little bit to that.

MR. MURPHY: I am just wondering if government has been keeping track of those numbers. It is more of an item of curiosity because maybe somebody might want to know one of these days. It might be an idea just to compile some data and track it.

I guess I will leave it on that particular note, but I will leave you, particularly when it comes to salt and snow clearing – I do not know who the driver is who lives on Legion Road out in CBS, but he is one helluva driver and he is a heck of a snowplow operator. If that is any sign of the crews you have on the road, my hats off to them. This fellow, I do not know who he is, but he is out there usually by about 4:45 o'clock any time that I have ever seen. There were a lot of times I worked nights when I was on the way home, only to find this particular driver just crawling into the truck and getting out there to clear the roads.

If you can, if there is some way you can do it, pass along my compliments to the drivers who are out there. I know they are a hard-working bunch and they do a good job.

MR. HEDDERSON: That will be done.

Sometimes, George, when we do that we will make sure that all the drivers hears it. We have had some incidents where they have saved people's lives. We get a lot e-mails back or letters complimenting, as you just complimented.

MR. MURPHY: I just want to make sure that is passed along.

How am I doing for time? Do I have a couple of more minutes?

Transportation and Works is responsible as well for the water bomber fleet so I just want to change track here.

MR. HEDDERSON: We are responsible in the sense that we maintain them, but the deployment of them rests with Natural Resources.

MR. MURPHY: I just want to ask you a general question about that. You do keep a good stock of supply parts and that sort of thing. I noticed in the purchase manuals that we get on a monthly basis here in the House that there have been some acquisition of parts and everything for some.

How up to date now is the water bomber fleet? Are we on track? Are we okay in that regard? Are we going to need new planes in a couple of years?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, we have four new ones and we have held onto two of the other ones. These were great acquisitions. They are the updated ones. We are in very, very good shape.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

I had a question about that one: Any anticipated extra costs this year? It seems they are going to be in for a tough year as regards the temperature by all predictions.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, it is our like winter season, George, or our spring season in that it unfolds and we have to make sure we have contingencies in place and that we have the resources that we need. Sometimes when we do not we have to find it elsewhere because these are absolutely necessary.

We are anticipating they will be poised and ready to go. As a matter of fact, as you have probably heard in the news and that, they have been out around even as we speak.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, they have been worked already. That is a global warming question.

How many water bombers are in the fleet?

MR. HEDDERSON: Six.

MR. MURPHY: There are six, are there?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, and they are stationed strategically throughout the Island portion as well as Labrador.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect. Thank you for that.

My hats off to them, too; they are a gutsy bunch whenever they are flying low. The kids love them.

MR. HEDDERSON: They do.

MR. MURPHY: I want to come over to 2.2.04.

How am I doing for time, Mr. Chair?

CHAIR: You are okay.

MR. MURPHY: Still okay?

CHAIR: You have a couple of minutes.

MR. MURPHY: All right.

Subhead 2.2.03 and 2.2.04, I guess we will stick to that page. I have a couple of more line items, if I can. In 2.2.03, Building Utilities and Maintenance, I am just looking to get an explanation on line 03, the discrepancy there. There was $78,400 budgeted and $140,800 was spent, the revised number for 2011-2012.

MR. CHIPPETT: That would be similar to some of the other cases where the travel was more requirements than we would have anticipated when we budgeted.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Further down in the line 06, Purchased Services, $30,427,600 was budgeted in 2011-2012. The Estimates this year show $34 million budgeted. The revised number, though, that was actually spent for 2011-2012 was $32 million. I wonder if I can get an explanation there.

MR. CHIPPETT: A large portion of that is increase in fuel costs, also some contractual cost increases under some of our service contracts, provisions in the contracts. There are also some additional buildings, so we have taken on additional hangar space in Gander to deal with the new water bombers, and the Johnson Building and Argyle Building that government purchased, as well as the Labrador College of the North Atlantic. So, it would be operational costs and contracts associated with those.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, you mentioned fuel costs, if I can get into that a little bit. Are most of them using diesel-type heating oils, that sort of thing, for most of these buildings that you are talking about as regards to fuel cost?

MR. HEDDERSON: Diesel?

MR. MURPHY: Well, diesel, heating oil, in some cases –

MR. HEDDERSON: Oh yes, heating oil it would be.

MR. MURPHY: Distillate, anyway, either way.

OFFICIAL: Yes, it would be light oil.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, it is light oil.

OFFICIAL: Light oil would be –

MR. CHIPPETT: The fuel of choice.

MR. MURPHY: I do not know if it is the fuel of choice of too many any more, the way the price is going.

MR. CHIPPETT: No.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, thanks for that.

Line 2.2.04, Rentals, it says, "Appropriations provide for the leasing costs incurred by the Department and for moving, alterations, modifications and minor maintenance expenses related to all Government leases."

As regards to the Professional Services in this particular section, the revised number of $15,000 against a budget of $65,000, and the number is the same for this year, I am just wondering, for all intents and purposes, how come you did not spend the money?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is a budget for consulting services in instances, for example, where we might need to do renos and so on to lease the properties. So there would not have been a great deal of that in 2011-2012.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, great.

CHAIR: Excuse me, George.

We are going to pass it back to Eddie now. I am sure you have lots more.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, I was just going to finish off that section with one more question. Do you want me to just get that one out of the way?

CHAIR: Okay, that's fine. Sure.

MR. MURPHY: Line 06 Purchased Services, $1,573,900 was spent against a $2.2 million budget for this year.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, that is the hangar we are going to have to look at to house that fleet that I just talked to you about, the water bombers.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. So that is the one in Gander?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thanks, George.

Eddie?

MR. JOYCE: I am just going to ask some general questions and I am going to ask the $10 million question: What is the difference in the mixture of the pavement than what it was before?

You always see the ruts, and it is just not highway pavement. We see it in the City of Corner Brook. We see it all over the place. Is there a change in the formula, the mixture, or something?

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, the recipe – I guess we would call it, Eddie – has always been a challenge I suppose, depending on the type of road, depending on where we are in the Province, the aggregate, and everything that goes into it. Generally, most people compare our liquid asphalt to perhaps our liquid asphalt of thirty years ago. There is no comparison.

With the price of oil rising in the 1970s and 1980s, the refineries got very good at taking out a lot of the stuff, right down to the very end of their process, whereas probably in the 1960s and 1970s you really got tar. What has happened now is we, as well as other jurisdictions, are having to put some of those additives in to put some of that back. It is simple but complicated, because we look at everywhere we go and we work with the contractors to try and make sure.

The supply of asphalt to the Province as well was sole sourced in a lot of ways. Even though two companies were bringing it in, they were using the same source. Some of our contractors now are looking at alternate sources. As a matter of fact, we have a case where they are stockpiling. They have their own tanks and bringing it in, as well as other ways of bringing it in direct.

There is a question as to the quality of the asphalt. Even with the quality of the liquid asphalt, our lab makes sure that the mixture that goes together is the best possible mixture that we can get. They are on the job all the time.

I am going to pass it down the line to Gary because he can talk a little bit more technical about it than I, but I get your gist. We have changed that recipe over the years and we have had consultants come in. We have done some experimentation and so on. We are working with the industry because they want a good product, we want a good product. In some cases we have gotten a fabulous product, but in other cases we have had to go back over some of the work.

As well, you have to take into account the volumes of traffic now that are travelling our roads, not only the volumes but the weight. You can well realize the tractor-trailer of thirty years ago is a different tractor-trailer today and can carry a lot more weight. We have more volume. We have more numbers of vehicles on it and heavier weights. It is creating some good challenges for us.

To get back to the original, I did not mean to drift off there. Gary, do you want to add anything to that with regard to the recipe that might help the member understand what we have…

MR. GOSSE: I think the minister pretty much touched on everything that I could possibly touch on. The mixtures are changing slightly. We are trying to find that right mix. It is a fine line between asphalt that lasts a long time and asphalt that does not rut. You can have asphalt that is very flexible and lasts a long time; that same asphalt is going to rut. If you try to make one that does not rut, then it is brittle and you lose material from the surface. It is a very fine line that you are trying to walk on here.

One of the variables that we have trouble controlling is the liquid asphalt itself. As the minister said, refineries now are taking out a whole lot more material. They are taking out the gasolines, the naphthas, the high value materials. Asphalt was always the leftover stuff from refining oil that nobody could use. They found a use for it, for putting on roads. Now there are very little materials left into the liquid itself.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. GOSSE: You are truly left with the leftovers.

MR. JOYCE: It is all over.

MR. GOSSE: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: I know in Corner Brook that it might come from the same supplier but from different contractors. It is the same thing in Corner Brook, it is all over.

MR. GOSSE: There are essentially two suppliers of liquid asphalt. Up until this year there were two suppliers of liquid asphalt in the Province, one was Irving and one was Ultramar. As the minister said, it was the same product that both were supplying.

MR. JOYCE: Ultramar used to buy it off Irving, they still do.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, the same source; stored in the same tanks.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. GOSSE: There is another entity that is in the business now. They have built their new tank farm last fall and are supplying liquid this year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, thank you.

MR. GOSSE: They are not getting their liquid from the same source.

MR. JOYCE: It is a tough one for everybody, I know, and all municipalities also, not just the department.

Minister, I am going to ask some questions. How much work was done, say roadwork was done last year, just a dollar figure?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, roadwork contains a lot of stuff because you have to look at the Trans-Labrador Highway; you have to look at the Trans-Canada. There are different funds. It basically totalled last year, I think up to maybe $230 million.

You go ahead, Gary, and give the member the breakdown.

MR. GOSSE: Last year we had approximately $252 million in roadwork that we tendered. About $230 million worth of that was completed last year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. GOSSE: The remainder to be completed this year.

MR. JOYCE: How much carryover this year, about $20 million?

MR. GOSSE: About $20 million.

MR. JOYCE: How much roadwork is going to be done this year or is committed to be done, if it can be done? I know some of it may be –

MR. HEDDERSON: You want the grand total again, do you?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: What are we going to put out this year?

MR. JOYCE: Including the carryover.

MR. GOSSE: It is $225 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes and the carryovers are included in that.

MR. JOYCE: There is a decrease in the funding this year.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but we had some carryovers last year as well.

Every year, traditionally it has been anywhere from $10 million to maybe $15 million. Last year it was more $15 million into –

MR. JOYCE: So, there is about $206 million new money this year.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but you have to put another factor in there, because the last two years we have been dealing with Igor. That has to be factored in as well. Last year I think it was $23 million and this year it would be $8 million.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. That includes all road construction, the Trans-Labrador Highway?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. We usually run $200 million-plus but some of it is carryover and so on and so forth, and Igor is involved in it.

MR. JOYCE: My next question; if there are some districts that has a bit of carryover, will there be other funding given if there is necessity shown in that district?

MR. HEDDERSON: There is necessity shown in every district, and we look at prioritizing every district throughout the Province if it falls within that category of priorities. What we do basically, I guess what you are looking at is that there is some essential work that is in all districts. Those are bridges and those are culverts, and it could be some road deterioration. Those are automatically done. Then, once we get that looked at, we look at the next priority. This is really new work to be done. We look at the priorities.

The principle usually is: the most travelled roads. This year will be no different from others. I have not gotten to that stage yet, because we are looking at our carryovers and they are all re-tendered out so they are gone. The essentials now are what we are working on because we want to make sure that none of that is ever carried over, so that is the first to go out.

The next wave will be –

MR. JOYCE: I am just trying to ensure that the districts that have carryovers are still being looked at.

MR. HEDDERSON: I do not know. I have not looked at your district, so I really do not know what you got.

MR. JOYCE: I am not sure if there is carryover there –

MR. HEDDERSON: No, you have a carryover of, I think, two point two, if I am not mistaken. I stand to be corrected on that.

MR. JOYCE: I am well aware of it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, I am going to bring up another thing. I think some officials in your department may be aware of it and it is a concerning the Bay of Islands. The Frenchman's Cove area – I am sure you are aware of what is going on there. Probably about a year-and-a-half ago there was a water and sewer project that went through the town, about three kilometres. What happened is they paved it late, probably early December, and the road right now, from my understanding, there already have to be patches put into it and there has to be one or two spots actually dug up.

I am just wondering if the Transportation is going to insist upon Municipal Affairs to do this road again before it is turned back to Transportation because it is less than a year-and-a-half and there is a lot of work that needs to be done to it already.

MR. GOSSE: We are certainly aware of the condition of the road in Frenchman's Cove where the water and sewer was done. We did give permits to the appropriate authorities to cut the road. We have not signed off on the quality of work that was done to take it back at this point.

From where we sit, I think it is safe to say that the proper job with patching or repaving was supposed to have been done as a part of the water and sewer, and that was not done.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

What is the next process now because what is happening is the road now is worse than it was, say, back in September or October. I am sure by the time next year comes around it almost has to be repaved again.

I do not know what happened, but whatever happened the road which was done a year-and-a-half ago needs to be repaved now.

MR. GOSSE: I will be speaking with my colleagues in Municipal Affairs and they are aware of the condition of the road as well.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. GOSSE: They are also aware that the repaving of that road was a part of the water and sewer program.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The other question: How many temporary employees are there in Corner Brook Transportation? I do not want the names. I am just looking for a list of temporary employees within the last two years from Corner Brook Transportation and Works? Can I get a list of –

MR. HEDDERSON: (Inaudible).

MR. JOYCE: Both, if you can? I can get it under Freedom of Information if I can do it, if I need it –

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, we can do that.

MR. JOYCE: Say, go back two years, if that is all right.

MR. HEDDERSON: In Corner Brook proper –

MR. JOYCE: Just the Corner Brook Department of Transportation, either through the Sir Richard Squires Building or through the Highway Division in the department itself.

Now, one more question from me. I know it was passed up the line and I do not know how to get around it. For years, myself and the regional manager or the assistant regional manager would always jump in the car, go for a drive, see what spots need to be done, stop off, go through it, and explain technically why it should be done or not done. The department has stopped that now.

MR. HEDDERSON: I think you are quite aware of an incident that happened on the Outer Ring Road.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: It involved the death of one of our workers. Naturally, we did a review of the circumstances, and so on and so forth. From that came a change. We were doing it all over the place, what you just described. You have in your area some very high-traffic areas.

We are insisting within our own department that there would be, if anyone is going out looking at roads or whatever, a plan that has to be put in place. You meet and there is an indication of where you are going, what you are doing, and so on and so forth. You have to wear your safety vest and so forth. There is an onus now on our employees to make sure that no matter where they are, the short-term, even just getting out of the truck – not that they were not doing it, but we are now insisting.

What has come back is: Well, what do we do when we have visitors? They have to be treated the same way.

MR. JOYCE: I understand, and I understand the safety part. I will use Cyril, for example, because Cyril is the regional manager. If I wanted to go with Cyril now to take a drive, if I wore a safety vest and a safety hat, is it –

MR. HEDDERSON: No, what it is, first of all, you know that it ties up that particular person depending on what you want done. You would have to present to Cyril, first of all, a request of what you want to do. Then Cyril would try to work out some sort of a schedule to make sure that could be done.

MR. JOYCE: So, it is all right if I say to Cyril someday – it is too late now for this year, probably the fall, to look at some of the roads – let's two of us take a drive in my car or Transportation and Works –

MR. HEDDERSON: No, it would have to be in Transportation.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

If I committed to wearing the vest and the safety helmet –

MR. HEDDERSON: He would not take you out unless you did.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: He takes control of you.

MR. JOYCE: No, I agree with it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, it is not just a frivolous drive around the district going here, there and anywhere, but it has to be something specific, plotted out, and done properly. We are just asking that MHAs – and this is for all MHAs – to make contact with the depot –

MR. JOYCE: That is done.

MR. HEDDERSON: – and then it is up to the individual who you asked to arrange, if they can, to comply with your request.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

It can be done if we follow the regulations and set out what we are going to go and have a look at. It would not be a frivolous ride when you go down and look through the district.

MR. HEDDERSON: What I am saying is that you just cannot go in and say: Well, listen, we are going to drive every road in the district. You have to plot out exactly where you are going, the stops that you are doing, so that you can have a plan before you go. Cyril might tell you that you are not getting out of the truck.

MR. JOYCE: I know what you mean. So it can be done, if we go ahead and plan it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. Again, I still leave it up to the supervisors because sometimes that can be very time consuming and there is some judgement involved.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, I agree.

Do you want me to keep going, Mr. Chair, or pass it back? I had fifteen minutes – the new me is being nice.

CHAIR: Your fifteen is up now. You still have a few questions.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, I have another (inaudible) –

CHAIR: All right, we will give it back to George.

George.

MR. MURPHY: He can finish off –

CHAIR: You have several more, you said.

MR. JOYCE: I will finish off; I will keep going.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: As we already know, one of the standard questions that we are asking all of the departments is how many employees, but I think the Minister of Finance is going to supply that for everybody.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, that is the Salary Details that you have been asking for.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: We have provided our information to the minister and, I guess, it is up to him as to when it comes out.

MR. JOYCE: I am going to ask some very specific questions and it could be just numbers. I was asked by some of my colleagues on this.

How much money is being spent in 2012-2013 on Phase II and III on the Trans-Labrador Highway?

MR. HEDDERSON: We have not started Phase II and III.

MR. JOYCE: I think it is Phase II and III of Phase I.

MR. HEDDERSON: Phase I, we are completing from Happy Valley-Goose Bay – let's go the other way from Lab West, Wabush down to Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

MR. JOYCE: For upkeep?

MR. HEDDERSON: Oh, you are looking for the maintenance of Phases II and III.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, sorry about that minister.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, not a problem.

OFFICIAL: Resurfacing too.

MR. GOSSE: Our maintenance contract is on the Trans-Labrador Highway. It is all contracted maintenance services there north of L'Anse-au-Loup. Our maintenance contracts total approximately $9 million a year.

MR. JOYCE: A year?

MR. GOSSE: A year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The other part here: Is there any new blacktop being put down the year?

MR. HEDDERSON: You are asking what kind of allocation is going to come out of the roads budget, right.

MR. JOYCE: Crushed stone.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, again I am working down through that, so I am not giving a figure here tonight. I have gotten down to the essentials. I do not know how many essentials we are doing. We are finishing off the Pinware diversion that is up there. That blacktop will go down this year and that should be finished. As well, we will be doing some regular maintenance. Whether or not we are going to be able to add some additional materials, the decision has not been made yet.

MR. JOYCE: The other question: Has the Province applied to the federal government to cost-share in Phase II and III of the upgrade?

MR. HEDDERSON: I am going to turn that over to my deputy minister. You have to have an understanding, we are coming to the end of our Building Canada Funds and the associated infrastructure funding, that will be in 2014. Of course on a go-forward basis we are currently now working with the federal government on a new phase of that from 2014 on.

There have been some preliminary talks, we have been assured that we are going to get the same level of funding, but the criteria may change as we go through it. We are currently doing I think what we call a three-phase process as we work through the negotiations, not only us but right across Canada. Jamie, do you just want to indicate –

MR. CHIPPETT: The focus in the Budget this year of course was the $65.8 million to complete the widening and hard surfacing on Phase I. We do have federal funding remaining and the current round of Building Canada funding expires at the end of March, 2016.

We are currently looking at all the potential priorities for that funding. Once those priorities are set, those priorities will be advanced to take up the remainder of that federal funding. Obviously, we are aware of the need on Phases II and III and those are in the mix.

MR. HEDDERSON: Gary, how much do we get for Phase I under Building Canada?

MR. GOSSE: The total federal contribution on Phase I was $50 million.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, thank you.

MR. GOSSE: The project as a whole will be $300 million.

MR. JOYCE: How much money is being spent in 2012-2013 on Route 510 from the Quebec border to Red Bay?

MR. HEDDERSON: That is regular road money and, again, those decisions have not been made yet.

MR. JOYCE: No decisions?

MR. HEDDERSON: No.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I guess the next question is also; we are asked to ask it: How much money is being spent on Route 360 through Harbour Breton?

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, these are questions that I cannot answer right now because we are working down through – the budget is working its way through. We know what we have and we are going back over our priorities and the place that I am at now is essentials, work, bridges that have to be repaired and culverts put in, and the next stage will be then to look at the new repairs and new money.

MR. JOYCE: I guess the next question is already answered. Will the expansion of twenty-four seven snow clearing program in 2012 –

MR. HEDDERSON: No, I think we have gone through that.

MR. JOYCE: No expansion, okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: The base budget stands on that one.

MR. JOYCE: The next one: What bridges are on the schedule to be replaced in 2012-2013, and is there a cost put on to it? What bridges are on the schedule to be replaced?

MR. HEDDERSON: I am going to pass this over to Gary. Bridges are not usually built in a year, so there are some that have already been announced, Ed.

MR. JOYCE: Can you just send us a copy?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

Are there any new ones that they are doing? I know we are doing, under the essentials, would be – wait now, I better not say.

These have not been announced yet, so I have to be careful.

MR. JOYCE: You can send me a copy.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

You can go ahead Gary –

MR. GOSSE: One of the larger bridges that we are going to be doing – and the contract is awarded actually – is the E.S. Spencer Bridge over the Terra Nova River on the Trans-Canada Highway. The contract is awarded. Construction is not started yet. That is pending. Several other bridges along the Trans-Canada are Robinsons and Middle Barachois. Some of those are in various stages of completion now. We can give you a list of bridges.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, thank you.

How much money has been spent on the Confederation Building, the rehabilitation, the outside? Is there a cost estimate on how much has been spent on that yet?

MR. HEDDERSON: (Inaudible) Keith will take care of that.

MR. BOWDEN: I can have a look.

The bulk of the money spent to date was in the last fiscal year, which is just under $11 million spent. There was a little bit spent in the previous year. I do not have that amount, but can get it. The bulk was in the year just ended.

MR. JOYCE: So, how much more work is to be done? Do you know?

MR. HEDDERSON: You can see how much more needs to be done, because we are doing the whole building, and –

MR. JOYCE: Wasn't this one tender that was done?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: How much was the initial tender?

MR. CHIPPETT: (Inaudible) Olympic Construction was for $39 million.

MR. JOYCE: Is it over $39 million yet?

MR. CHIPPETT: There has only been $11 million spent so far. We anticipate spending more on the entire project. There were significant envelope issues that were not realized until some of the limestone came off the building. It did not fall off, when the contractors took the limestone off the building, so it will be –

MR. JOYCE: I have to ask a question – oh, sorry about that, I did not mean to cut you off.

MR. HEDDERSON: Go ahead, Keith.

MR. BOWDEN: The anticipated cash flow for current fiscal year on the windows is about $13.5 million, $12 million for 2013-2014, and $6.8 million in 2014-2015 to finish it off – that is the windows.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I have to ask this question: Did it cost extra to get those windows tinted blue? I got to ask.

MR. HEDDERSON: Any building that is put up now, we do tinting or we get tinting for obvious reasons, and that is for energy efficiency. So, there was no extra cost if it had to be purple. It was just that we wanted to make sure that what we were putting in was not only aesthetically looking good, but also that it was providing a purpose, which was to contain the energy and lower our heat bills.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, I am not even going to ask who made the decision.

What is the estimated –

MR. HEDDERSON: Why, you do not like the colour? I guess we looked at it and we wanted to match up something with the beautiful blue skies that we have here in Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, Minister.

What is the estimated completion date for the hospital in Labrador West, and what is the total estimated cost of the project?

MR. HEDDERSON: Keith?

MR. BOWDEN: The completion date for Lab West – I can get that in just a moment. That would be later in the current fiscal year for completion, in the total.

MR. JOYCE: The completion date and the estimated cost, the total cost of the project? We can come back. You can look it up and we will come back. I will just go on with some other questions now.

Purchased new equipment, does the department have a budget set aside for new equipment this year?

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, we have been on track to try and replace our equipment and to keep it within a certain age.

Gary, do you just want to go down through that?

MR. GOSSE: We have $8.5 million for replacement of heavy equipment this year. Our plough truck fleet, we have targeted a maximum age of twelve years. We have met that target and we will retain that target. Heavy equipment, we have targeted at twenty years of age maximum. We are working towards having all of our heavy equipment meet that goal.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

This question just popped in my head. Are there safety guards being put in on the side? Do you remember the issue -?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, that is standard on all of our equipment.

MR. JOYCE: All new equipment?

MR. HEDDERSON: All of our equipment, isn't it? They were installed on all of our equipment.

MR. JOYCE: Perfect, okay.

Yes, I thought it was.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, it was. I think some of the municipalities did the same thing.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, perfect. Thank you.

That is a good job, by the way, to have that.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: What is the plan for freight and passenger service to the North Coast of Labrador in 2012-2013?

MR. HEDDERSON: Freight and passenger? We will start off with the freight.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The RFP has been let in the sense of we had five proposals come back in. I will say they were surprisingly all from the same company. We are working through those right now. It looks like we will be on track. I guess it comes down to a couple of choices, whether it is going to be a new build or a boat that is under fifteen years of age.

In the interim, I am pretty well assured that the Astron will begin the service this June. Now what time in June, will depend on the ice conditions. Your colleague, Randy, tells me that there is 165 miles out of ice or something. He is still on the ice up there, so it may be a while. ‘

The passenger is the Northern Ranger, and that was tendered out last year. Basically, that is in refit right now and will be ready for passenger service as soon as the ice permits. As well, our Bond, she came off The Straits run. She is currently in refit now. She should be ready to come back out, I think a little later in the summer, and she will be there to supplement the Astron as is needed.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

In the long term, especially where the freight is, is getting a new ferry or one under fifteen years.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. Well, that is the choices, because that is what the RFP said. That it had to be under fifteen or a new build, and it is for fifteen years.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

What is the contingency plan put in place to handle the increased passenger traffic on the Northern Ranger?

MR. HEDDERSON: On the Northern Ranger?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: The Northern Ranger running last year basically kept up with the passengers. It is just a passenger, and a little bit of freight. The contingency there, of course, is that if needed we would have to provide some alternate if it were to break down or whatever, but the Northern Ranger for the most part has been able to maintain that run with some degree of capacity.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

What is the status for the long-term plan for The Strait of Belle Isle ferry service once the Apollo contract expires?

MR. HEDDERSON: The contract is out as of March of next year, and right now we are following on the heels of the RFP for the freight. We are preparing now an RFP for that service. Of course, it is too early for me to be talking about it because we know there is interest out there.

I think you will see much the same as we have offered in the freight service to the North Coast. It seems to have worked out well. We have some excellent proposals there, and some of the same will apply to The Straits. We are hopeful that we can get that out, see what interest is there, look at the proposals and in short order award it so that they can be ready then for next March.

MR. JOYCE: The same question here for the increased traffic across the Strait of Belle Isle.

MR. HEDDERSON: I am sorry, that is a correction. Just make that correction, Jamie.

MR. CHIPPETT: The minister stated March, but it is actually January that the Apollo contract is up.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: When she comes out the Bond will go in to take care of the winter thing and that will bring us up to March and then the new contract will (inaudible).

MR. JOYCE: The same question, Minister, for the Strait of Belle Isle. What contingency plan is being put in place to handle the increased traffic across the Strait of Belle Isle, or is it being handled pretty well now?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, the Apollo has probably worked out to be one of the finest boats that have been on the Straits. Obviously, age-wise she is starting to get up there, but the capacity of that boat has been more than adequate.

There are some peak weekends, like the school-closing weekend in June and now with the added traffic coming down from Lab West that you do have some peaks, and it was initially. The reservation system has kind of straightened that out. As well, the people coming down from that part of Labrador are starting to get a feel for when they should be coming and so on and so forth.

MR. JOYCE: You feel that it is being taken care of now?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, the problems we have on the Straits are the times of ice and breakdowns. On a go-forward basis, the RFP going out will include in it the contingencies and the redundancies that would be associated with that type of a run.

CHAIR: Excuse me, Eddie, are you –?

MR. JOYCE: I have about three more questions, and they are right quick.

CHAIR: Three more?

MR. JOYCE: No, you go ahead.

CHAIR: We do owe him the time and we have gone over. If you just have three and you are clueing up, and we can do it within five minutes, then George will get the rest of the time on the next upward swing, if you want to do that.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, I have that one done.

Oh, here is one: Is Port Saunders still being considered as a possible destination for the Strait of Belle Isle ferry service?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, looking at the coast, there is no option there in the sense of St. Barbe, Port Saunders, and Corner Brook.

MR. JOYCE: Is Port Saunders being considered?

MR. HEDDERSON: They have always been considered. They know that.

MR. JOYCE: Each year is the decision made?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, we are not going to put any improvements to infrastructure or even add infrastructure until we know what boat is going in on the Straits.

MR. JOYCE: So you are going to wait until the new ferry comes in?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, our people will go out and we will see the boat that comes in. In all likelihood, it is not going to be as tall in the water, perhaps, as the Apollo or the Bond. We are hopeful that we do not have to make major renovations or improvements in the infrastructure.

MR. JOYCE: I was thinking, Minister, I know in Corner Brook it is more for the winter operation.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, it is.

MR. JOYCE: That is what you are talking about also?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

Now, the Bond will not be there for fifteen years. Once we get an idea of what boat is coming in and the redundancy – and maybe the redundancy will still be the Bond, but we know somewhere down the road we have to replace the Bond. That is another story in itself because the Ranger is too small; the Bond is too big. If we could knock the two of them together and get a mini Bond, we would have our roll-on, roll-off for the North Coast, and as well we would have a roll-on, roll-off mini Bond for the winter. Then we could make sure that the alternate port then with the size of a mini Bond, she could go into Port Saunders even as we speak.

OFFICIAL: Let us call it: The James.

MR. HEDDERSON: What is that?

CHAIR: James.

OFFICIAL: James Bond.

MR. HEDDERSON: Oh.

MR. JOYCE: Minister –

MR. HEDDERSON: She is not a 007, I can tell you that.

MR. JOYCE: Two last questions and that is it then. Has your department done a cost analysis for the air ambulance services in Happy Valley-Goose Bay?

MR. HEDDERSON: We do not do it. That would be Health. Weldon, what is the story on that?

MR. MOORES: It would be Health.

MR. HEDDERSON: It would be Health.

MR. JOYCE: What?

MR. HEDDERSON: We provide the planes; Health provides the services.

MR. JOYCE: Health provides the services, not –

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: We house them, we buy them, we maintain them, and we fly them. We are directed by Health as to where they go and so on. Any type of cost analysis about a service, you would have to look in that department.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

My last question for now and I am not sure if you have it all there now: Would your department be able to give me the cost since the closure of the mill in Grand Falls, the cost of the security?

MR. HEDDERSON: What is it about $1 million, $500,000?

OFFICIAL: I think it is $450,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is $450,000 or something per annum.

MR. JOYCE: How much?

MR. HEDDERSON: Was it $450,000?

MR. BOWDEN: The $450,000 is for salaries. That is not the only cost though; there are some other maintenance costs that are around $260,000, $270,000 a year on top of that, and it is per year. It would be annual costs.

MR. HEDDERSON: Are you just looking at salaries?

MR. JOYCE: No, the costs –

MR. HEDDERSON: The full cost of it would be –

OFFICIAL: Roughly $700,000 or $750,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: About $700,000 and change.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, perfect.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you, Eddie. That was certainly a long stint. George, all yours, buddy.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, sir.

It was also amusing and entertaining, Eddie. Thank you for digressing in some regard, I guess. I have a couple of questions on general policy, just to come back to a couple of things that Mr. Joyce referred to.

Mr. Gosse, I think you were dealing with this question earlier about finding the right soup mix. I guess we will call it the soup mix for the roads. I am just wondering if there has been any consideration as regards to using rubber in the mix, recycling of tires, that sort of thing –

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, we have explored that.

MR. MURPHY: You have explored that one?

MR. HEDDERSON: Gary would be better off telling you about it. It is the flexibility of course and the changing weather conditions, but I will go to my technical advice there.

MR. GOSSE: We have had a look at all kinds of options for asphalt, including the use of rubber. There are so many uncertainties with rubber. I mean, we are having enough trouble getting what we feel is the right mix right now or something that is working to everybody's satisfaction. To throw in such an unknown with rubber various compounds would just be another variable that you could not control.

One of the big things we looked at for rubber was tire-derived aggregate, which is used as a fill under the road.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, right.

MR. GOSSE: The amount of tires that we had here in the Province just did not make it feasible. You could build about two kilometres of road with the rubber.

MR. MURPHY: Have you put it into any of the roads?

MR. GOSSE: We have not, no.

MR. MURPHY: So you have not put it into the roads. Nobody has done any kind of study as regards to the effect, for example. What I am wondering about, what I am getting at is that we have the potential here for something that could be used in roadwork that may allow government not to revisit a road for X number of years, in some cases.

MR. GOSSE: If we were going to build a road out of it for that material that was under the road –

MR. MURPHY: Using that purpose the same way they do in other jurisdictions.

MR. GOSSE: About two kilometres of road, if you ground up all the tires that we had two years ago, we had enough to build about two kilometres of road.

MR. MURPHY: In the Province?

MR. GOSSE: In the Province.

MR. MURPHY: In the Province, two kilometres of road, okay. That answers that one, I guess.

The second question: Minister, you talked about bridges earlier, I am wondering about the bridge over the Exploits, the Bond Bridge.

MR. HEDDERSON: The Bond Bridge is being monitored, as all the bridges are in the Province. It is high on our priority list. Again, I am not in a position to announce anything right now, but obviously it will in the coming years be addressed.

MR. MURPHY: I would guess that the bridge is going to be twinned and expanded upon, a new bridge put in –

MR. HEDDERSON: No, basically the bridges that we are putting back on the Trans-Canada, Gary, would be –

MR. GOSSE: When the Bond is to be replaced, it will be parallel to the existing structure there now and the old structure will come out. It will stay that way until such time that the Trans-Canada traffic volumes in that area warrant twinning.

MR. MURPHY: Has costing or design or anything like that taken place?

MR. GOSSE: We have some preliminary work done.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so obviously within the next couple of years –

MR. HEDDERSON: We are knocking off the bridges. How many have we done so far? I do not know if we can get a number on the Trans-Canada, but we are knocking off the bridges on the Trans-Canada on a priority basis. What I mean by priority basis is that they were all built basically at the same time – finish the drive in '65 – and we are monitoring and replacing them as we can. The Bond Bridge is certainly earmarked for replacement.

MR. MURPHY: What is the recommendation? How much life do we have left in that bridge?

MR. HEDDERSON: On that bridge, Gary, we do not usually (inaudible) –

MR. GOSSE: Structurally, there is not a whole lot wrong with the bridge. It is starting to show its age. It is narrow. The biggest issue with the bridge is that it is narrow.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. GOSSE: Everybody speaks about the narrowness of the bridge when you have two tractor-trailers – it is wide enough, but where it is so narrow and so long, it gives people the illusion that it is very long and narrow.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, but it is on the schedule for –

MR. GOSSE: Yes, structurally it is not bad.

MR. MURPHY: We will look for an announcement in 2014 or 2015.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. MURPHY: That will probably do it.

Okay, thank you.

I am just wondering about the ferry across the Straits to Blanc-Sablon, the Labrador ferry, or Northern Peninsula. I am just wondering: How come we do not make that a dedicated service, as part of the Newfoundland ferry system? It is tendered out. The Apollo and everything is running there now, but is there some reason that we cannot make that part –

MR. HEDDERSON: I guess the history is where that is at, and I am not entirely sure of the history. I am just looking now for the corporate memory – that was a federal service that was given over to the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador in the mid-1990s.

Graham might remember that more than I – I do remember it, but obviously it involved Labrador. There was a dollar value attached to it. The feds got out of the coastal boats and they turned over all of the assets to the Newfoundland government. That particular run was always contracted out. I am just looking at –

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, that was always contracted out, so it continued to be. That is just the way it is. We have not changed it. The same way with the freight service to the North Coast –

OFFICIAL: That was part of the Trans-Labrador Highway first settlement agreement.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: I am just wondering how come we do not make it a dedicated service.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is a dedicated run; it is just that it is operated in a different way. Our ferry services on the South Coast, we contract those out; whereas, the St. Brendan's, we have our own crew and a unionized boat. That is just the way it evolved and we see no reason to change it.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

I guess the government is happy with the service, then, that they are getting.

MR. HEDDERSON: When you contact out a service, as we do the Apollo service – they have done yeomen service. As with any contractor, there are times when we have disagreements, but overall that service has been okay – and I think Graham would attest to it. It has come to a point now where the Apollo's shelf life is at an end and we would like to see a more modern boat. That is what we are putting out an RFP for.

MR. MURPHY: So if nothing happens as regards to anyone answering that RFP, is there –

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, it is like a tender. If it is not answered, we seek out then a way to provide that service. I am pretty sure someone will answer the call, but if it is going to be appropriate or not we will have to determine that at that time.

MR. MURPHY: I am just wondering. It seems to be that the service is getting to be – well, it is, I think, a necessity as well as some of the constituents we talked to from time to time, some of the people.

I am just wondering: How come we do not just go out and put a spec for a government-owned operation to take over that so that people know there is not going to be any problem as regards to maintenance and we get a dedicated service run, year-round?

I know ice and everything like that are problems, and ice has been a big problem as regards to the Apollo. I know she has had her problems because she is probably at the end of her life. If we put something new in there, it might be a better chance for commerce to carry on their commerce, if you will, and for people to get back and forth across the Strait.

MR. HEDDERSON: You realize the RFP going out is a long-term contract, much the same as we just discussed with your colleague down the road here. It is an RFP going out. It is a fifteen-year contract. We are asking for a boat that is less than fifteen years of age, or a new boat. Someone hopefully will answer the call. We will make sure what goes in there is adequate and that it is and remains that dedicated service.

There has to be redundancy built in. There has to be ice strengthening and so on so it can travel through ice. We will put the specifications in. It will come back to us from the people who use it. Of course, we have been involved with that now for years, so there is corporate knowledge in our department that I am hoping we can use to give the best service possible.

As well, long term, we all know that is an area where somewhere down the road we will look at hopefully a fixed link.

MR. MURPHY: So the fixed link is in the radar between the Northern Peninsula and Labrador?

MR. HEDDERSON: We have updated our feasibility study and basically put it in today's dollars. This year we made a commitment to put an overall transportation strategy in place and that will be part of that strategy as we project where we are going to be in the next ten years or so.

MR. MURPHY: That is where I was going.

Do you have a copy of that feasibility study? Can we have a copy of that?

MR. HEDDERSON: I guess it would be somewhere along the way there.

MR. MURPHY: So it is possible to get that? Can you give me a time frame of when we can get our hands on that one and have a look at it?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, I am just seeing if we have a copy somewhere along the way. We have updated the figures, but you can have what is there.

MR. MURPHY: Is that the same 2004 study? I think that was the year.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so we can get that readily enough? Okay, perfect, thank you for that.

Getting back to the roads question again, down on the South of the Avalon Peninsula, I think the Placentia area, they have had their times with roads here lately, so much to the point that they have managed to block a few roads down there in the last week or so. Any update on the road to Cape Ray down in that area? I think it is Cape Ray, is it? Not Cape Race, Cape Ray down St. Mary's way anyway.

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, we treat those roads like we treat all the roads. We look at them – from the standpoint of regional or area, our people are on the road, they do a determination of what kind of maintenance needs to be done on these roads, the state of them, and they keep it updated.

During this time of the year, we look at what needs to be done. Hopefully through the maintenance or through reconstruction, we can get to some of the roads. I can tell you 9,000 kilometres of roads and I think 800 bridges, it is not going to be done all in the same year.

MR. MURPHY: Any plans for that road though this year?

MR. HEDDERSON: The plans are to make sure that we continue our maintenance on it. Whether there is going to be any reconstruction that decision has not been made yet.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

We will come over and do some line items. That is all I have as regards to that for now. Okay, yes, a couple of line items I think.

As regards to the maintenance of equipment you already mentioned earlier that your twelve-year target is the target for the age of your equipment. This is a question for you, Mr. Gosse, or I guess the minister can answer it anyway.

I am just looking at Maintenance of Equipment, 2.3.02 here in the book. I know that Salaries seem to be relatively stable within a couple of hundred thousand. I would take it that is probably wage increases based on the dollar amount. I am thinking as regards to Supplies: $14,630,700 was budgeted, actual cost of $18,836,600. The Supplies number has been budgeted to be up this year as well, so I am just wondering about getting an explanation on that.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is fuel costs, primarily.

MR. MURPHY: All right, that answers that one. That is for all of the vehicles that would be in the fleet or just highway vehicles?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is the fleet and the heavy equipment.

MR. MURPHY: That is everything? All right, thank you for that.

Over in Salaries in 3.1.01, Administrative Support and Design, there was a budget of $891,800. The actual that was spent was $1,258,500.

MR. CHIPPETT: On the construction projects, the advice we got from the Comptroller General of the Department of Finance was to re-charge all of our salaries to the capital account so you can budget the actual cost of every capital project or every infrastructure project. So, basically at the beginning of the year when we anticipate progress on projects, we try to anticipate the salaries involved; the staff that are assigned to those projects.

So, you will see, in several instances associated with infrastructure projects, variations like that. In this particular case, in terms of the $891,000 versus the $1.3 million, the re-charges did not quite catch up to what we had originally planned in terms of the project, so there would be more dollars left in our current account for salaries.

MR. MURPHY: So, it is somewhat of a rollover?

MR. CHIPPETT: Or a re-profiling, if you will.

MR. MURPHY: Re-profiling would be a good word for it. Okay.

Further down in Purchased Services in line 06, budgeted $39,800, and the actual spent was $106,800.

MR. CHIPPETT: That was for increased need for repairs to vehicles –

MR. MURPHY: Repairs to vehicles?

MR. CHIPPETT: – and other equipment.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, because I was just looking over here, the Maintenance of Equipment, I figured that that might have been costed out over here. Is that for the whole department – $106,800?

MR. GOSSE: It is also for traffics light as well.

MR. CHIPPETT: It is also for traffic lights, Gary is telling me.

MR. MURPHY: So, how many vehicles would be covered under that $106,800? It does not sound like it is a big amount of money, is it?

MR. HEDDERSON: That is equipment, I think, George, rather than –

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: – cars or trucks. Traffic lights – you usually have to get people to go out and repair those and so on. Is that what you are talking about, Gary?

MR. GOSSE: Traffic lights on the harbour arterial, for example, maintenance of those come out of that account, maintenance of the equipment in our soils and materials engineering lab, survey equipment and so on.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, that is good.

We are getting into the line items again, now. Page 6.12, section 3.2.02, Pre-Engineering. I am wondering if you can give me an explanation as regards the Salaries in that particular department.

OFFICIAL: Can you repeat the question?

MR. HEDDERSON: That is under Salaries, George, somebody said?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, under Salaries, I was asking for –

MR. HEDDERSON: That is Pre-Engineering in 2011-2012. I do not know for what reason – I guess many of the projects in the 2011-2012 had entered the construction phase of the development and less pre-engineering was required.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, that is good.

Section, 3.2.03, Improvements – Provincial Roads, line 05, Professional Services, and line 06, Purchased Services. I will start off with line 05, Professional Services: $544,000 needed in the budget, only $350,000 spent, $450,000 in the budget for this year.

MR. GOSSE: On line 05, Professional Services, that is to cover consultants' costs, should we have to hire a consultant to do some specialized work for us. Line 06 is actually our Purchased Services contract payments.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so line 05 would be –

MR. GOSSE: Line 05 is Professional Services. We have to hire a consultant –

MR. MURPHY: That would be retainers or money that is already paid out?

MR. GOSSE: No, we do not pay retainers. We pay a consultant on a fee-for-service basis.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, I mistook that one – and the purchased services?

MR. GOSSE: Purchased services are contract payments for tenders and contracts that are called and awarded.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. Can we have a list of those purchased services?

MR. GOSSE: That would be all of our road contracts.

MR. MURPHY: That is all your road contracts?

MR. GOSSE: Yes, it is all road contracts – road and bridge repairs. The contracts in Current account; there will be additional – in the next section is the Capital account. So that is Current account expenditures on road maintenance and bridge maintenance repairs.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so that is ongoing.

MR. GOSSE: It is all tenders, all contracted.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Carrying on over then to the next page, 6.13, section 3.2.04, Canada/Newfoundland and Labrador Infrastructure Framework Agreement, I think we had a basic explanation from that earlier; I am not quite sure. I just wanted to get into line 06 and line 01 – both of them at the same time. I noticed a big discrepancy in Salaries; $1.1 million was actually spent against a $320,000 salary uptake for this year.

MR. CHIPPETT: Both of those reflect the progress of already approved projects under that particular infrastructure agreement.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. CHIPPETT: So in both cases, the projects, some of them would have been completed, I think, Gary, and the remainder would have been completed this year. I am pretty sure all of our funding under the infrastructure framework agreement is associated with approved projects.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. CHIPPETT: So that would be the end of that funding.

MR. MURPHY: So, basically in line 06 we are dealing with the end of these projects again, and that is why the big discrepancy in the dollar amount?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is correct.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect; we are whizzing right through here.

Section 3.2.05, Canada/Newfoundland and Labrador Infrastructure Framework Agreement again – Salaries are the same this year as projected for last year, but all of it was not spent for the last year, in line 01.

MR. CHIPPETT: That would be similar to the previous item. It would reflect construction projects not advancing as far as we would have expected.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so there is a little of a rollover here again?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is correct.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect. Thank you.

Further down in Purchased Services in line 06 we are dealing with the same thing there, I guess?

MR. CHIPPETT: Yes, and they would be the actual tenders and contract costs for the projects.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, thanks.

MR. HEDDERSON: George, on that, in all of this is the Team Gushue Highway, and I think I heard you reference one day that it was Roads for Rails money – no.

MR. MURPHY: No? Okay, that was Canada –

MR. HEDDERSON: Did you explain that, Gary?

MR. MURPHY: Somebody had referred to it as Roads for Rails, the tail end of the Roads for Rails.

MR. HEDDERSON: What was the last thing that was done on Roads for Rails – that was the Outer Ring, was it?

MR. GOSSE: The last thing done on Roads for Rails, I believe the last project we finished was actually Veterans Memorial Highway down through Carbonear.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect, okay.

While we are on the fact of the Team Gushue Highway, too – I take it this would be provincial jurisdiction – I have had at least one phone call as regards to where the road is gone through, and there was no transfer of the land over to government; there is still an ongoing legal issue there.

So, I am just wondering, according to this family that I was talking to, they had not sold the land yet, but the land and everything was cleared already. Is that a normal process, for a road to go through without it being bargained for?

MR. GOSSE: Normally, when a new road is being constructed and we need properties, we negotiate with the property owners. If we cannot reach an agreement with the property owner, we do not hang up a major project because we cannot reach an agreement. We will expropriate. Once you expropriate property, you post the expropriation and we own it within ten days. It does not mean that people lose their property. A lot of people think that land is expropriated, we have lost it, but that is not the case.

We continue to negotiate with the owners. We have the appraisals done. It could be a year, two years, three years down the road before we finally reach an agreement on price, but we cannot allow a major public work that is to the benefit of everybody to be hung up because one or two, or however many property owners decide to say no, I do not want to let my land go.

MR. MURPHY: I think that is my point. I know that it is only one person, but the needs of the few sometimes outweigh the needs of the many, and I am just wondering if there was another option as regards to putting the road somewhere else when that project was planned. That might be another issue, too, and I suppose we –

MR. HEDDERSON: (Inaudible) we are more gentle than that. Obviously these people have made representation to the department, they have been told this, and they know as well as anyone that it is a process now that we go through. Not only that, but people have come forward and indicated that this is land that is theirs and we have to do the title search and, oftentimes, that is an onerous process.

Like I said, we do not hold up projects. We move forward, give them due notice, and due process. It is not just an overnight thing because sometimes, again, the land that people think they know is probably actually Crown land.

MR. MURPHY: The other thing I wanted to mention, according to this family, is that now they own land, let's call them east of the Team Gushue, but now they are divided from their land that is now west of the Team Gushue, so now there is a problem there with access. It is probably a serious situation that may be perceived by the family. So will the government make a judgement with regard to the value of the land that is west of the property that they own, seeing how they have been divided from –

MR. HEDDERSON: We deal with each case individually and whatever presents itself works its way into negotiations. Even if it is expropriation, we still listen to their concerns and try to bring out a resolve to it. Like I said, I know with land, as you know with land, it is an onerous process when you get two lawyers going back and forth and so on.

Again, once we announce that the road is going through, we give due notice and we are open to questions and so on and so forth. Hopefully, we can be as gentle as we can because people are sometimes losing land that has been in their family for generations.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. I will leave it to the government people to decide what the definition of fair value is and I guess we will all find out one of these days.

MR. GOSSE: Can I just add to that answer, Minister?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. GOSSE: It is not government that decides the value of the land. We hire independent appraisal companies to do it. If there is land to the east, as you said, that is isolated now from their properties there is a value put to that impact as well. It is all included in the appraisals, and that is what we work with.

MR. MURPHY: Fair enough. Thank you.

I want to come back to another question I have written down here in regard to highway line painting. I do not know if it has ever been tried. Mr. Gosse, again, this might be a question for you: I have never seen it on Newfoundland and Labrador highways, but is the government considering anything else besides the paint that we are using on the roads right now, for example cat's eyes, that sort of thing, as they do in the US? Is there any consideration for that?

MR. HEDDERSON: Anything you put in the road, like cat's eyes, you have to make sure with our conditions, our winter conditions with our salt and sand, and so on, there is not very much that can stand up with it. Especially if it is sticking up out of the road, your plow is going to take care of that the first cut through.

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

I am just wondering: What has government been looking at besides – I just threw that out there in regard to that. Are they looking at anything else to show some more permanence to the line painting?

MR. HEDDERSON: I do not know what the history of it has been.

MR. GOSSE: We are looking at some inlays, actually, in new asphalt on the West Coast to see how these types of things work. We are not thinking so much about the lines themselves because that will be a very, very intensive process to try to do all of the lines. We are looking out for some arrows, stop bars, and the like just to see if there is truly a difference in the life of the markings.

MR. MURPHY: That is good to know. That is what I was wondering about as regards to the alternatives. I know the long-term plan would probably be to save the department money and if an inlay and that sort of thing is going to save the department money for painting and everything, I would say it is probably a worthwhile venture. That is what I was getting at. Thank you very much that.

We will come back to a couple more line items. Section 3.1.01 – did we do that? Yes, we did.

Section 3.2.07, under Road Construction, Improvement and Construction – Provincial Roads, line 06, Purchased Services: $12,732,000 was budgeted for 2011-2012 and the revised figure was $7,407,000. I am just wondering, is this another program that might be –

MR. HEDDERSON: (Inaudible) referring to carryover, so these would be –

MR. MURPHY: These would be carryovers?

MR. HEDDERSON: Sometimes, as it gets late in the year we are not putting pavement down, so it would be carried over. Would it be bridges, Gary, or pavement?

MR. GOSSE: That is the capital part of our roads program. That would predominantly be bridges. We had $12 million in contracts and we completed about $7.5 million with the rest carried over this year.

MR. MURPHY: The rest is carried over. So that would be the amount that I am looking at here in Purchased Services: $11,886,400.

MR. GOSSE: That would be the carryover plus the new projects, the new budget.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, that is great.

Is that the same thing in 3.2.08, Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund?

MR. GOSSE: That would be the same thing for our cost-shared program.

MR. MURPHY: That is perfect. Now we are getting through her.

The Trans-Labrador Highway, 3.2.09, again the numbers look like they were all rollover here from one year to the next.

MR. GOSSE: That is correct.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect.

Transportation Services, Air Support, 4.1.02, Airstrip Maintenance, I am looking at Salaries here: $803,300 against $702,200 going to be spent in 2012-2013, line 01.

MR. GOSSE: That is for our ongoing maintenance predominantly on the airstrips on the Coast of Labrador. There were some positions there that were vacant for a little longer than we anticipated in 2011-2012.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. Again, this is a rollover factor here?

MR. GOSSE: No, the $702,200 would be new salaries for this year.

MR. MURPHY: New salaries for this year?

MR. GOSSE: Yes, that is salaries for our airstrip operators.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Farther down in that section, line 05, there were two concerns there; Professional Services of $300,000 in line 05.

MR. GOSSE: We did not need to hire any consultants to do any work for us last year, not on the airstrips.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

With line 06, Purchased Services, $476,000 budgeted against $276,200 spent, but there is $476,000 that is again in the budget for this year.

MR. GOSSE: We had a reduced requirement for contracted services last year, but we are anticipating the normal amount for this year.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

What kind of contracts could you be looking at there?

MR. GOSSE: Resurfacing and grading on the airstrips.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, thank you very much for that.

Further down in 4.1.04, Atlantic Gateway and Trade Corridor, there is $5.8 million in Purchased Services going into that program this year. Can you give me a listing as regards to – this is going to be directly towards airports and everything and Smart Bay. I wonder if the minister can give me a little bit more background as regards to where this money is going to be spent.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, that is St. John's International Airport, Gander, and Smart Bay as priorities.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, that is great.

We are looking at longer runways in St. John's and in Gander? Or no, St. John's is the –

MR. HEDDERSON: St. John's is the navigational.

MR. MURPHY: That would be the navigation and in Gander it is the longer runway?

MR. HEDDERSON: Gander would be – what was it Weldon?

MR. MOORES: For Gander, it is resurfacing of an existing runway.

MR. MURPHY: Resurfacing of the existing runway, okay. In St. John's I was thinking that it was going to have a bit of an expansion to the runway there as well.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, I do not know, but this is basically to make sure the ceiling is better for landing and that.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, thank you for that.

Marine Operations 4.2.01, Administration – I think we are starting to get close to the end now; we are flying through this, so it is pretty good.

MR. HEDDERSON: Soon be docking.

MR. MURPHY: Soon be tying her up.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Subhead 4.2.01, under Marine Operations, Transportation and Communications: $167,800 budgeted and the actual spent was $208,500. This year, Transportation and Communications budgeted $223,200.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, you can answer that one, Jamie.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is basically a right size. We talked earlier about trying to spend in the areas where rather than relying on transfers, spend more appropriately in the areas where we need them. In this case we have identified a need for an increase in travel in that division.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so increased travel costs.

Subhead 4.2.02, Ferry Operations, Transportation and Communications: $159,000 appropriated for 2011-2012, $313,600 spent, and budgeted this year for $161,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is for our workers' travel costs when the vessels are in refit. That depends on how many days they are in refit and that sort of thing.

Go ahead Jamie.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is another area where it is very difficult to predict unexpected outages in service for some of the vessels. When we can plan for them, they are scheduled annual refits, is one thing, but when you do not plan for boats to be in or they are in for longer than you expect.

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. CHIPPETT: It is also related to training for employees on the two new ferries. There would be increased training needs associated with the new boats, the new systems on the boats and so.

MR. MURPHY: As regards to, for example, if a boat breaks down, let's use Fogo for an example, we know that the Nonia is moved up there now to do the service, so we are talking about the transfer of workers, for example, from St. John's to Farewell or vice versa, the transfer of crews. Not all of them are going to be staying up there every time they are off shift for a week or whenever they do the rotation. How is that done?

MR. HEDDERSON: Weldon, you can take that one.

MR. MOORES: The Nonia is classed as a swing vessel, so the crew stays with the vessel, per se. The Beaumont, which was up in Fogo for a while, that vessel's normal home is the Bell Island service. So, when we send that boat, we have to pay travel costs from Bell Island to Fogo. The Nonia, being a swing vessel, it is considered home in Lewisporte, so then we pay travel costs from Lewisporte to wherever the vessel goes. It depends on the vessel and where we send it.

This year, the Sound of Islay has been spending time on the South Coast of Newfoundland. Its home base is Lewisporte. So, we pay travel from Lewisporte to wherever on the South Coast. It varies depending on where the vessel is stationed, whether it is classed as a vessel that belonged to a service or a swing.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

CHAIR: Excuse me, George; I think we have been a little bit generous on this particular round by a couple of minutes. Eddie, we have a half hour left and if you want to take your fifteen or five or two –

MR. JOYCE: These are just questions I was asked to ask.

Twenty-four hour snow clearing – I know we went over it from Port aux Basques to Stephenville. Is there any way the department can reconsider that, look at the numbers or look at the flow of traffic from Port aux Basques with the ferries?

MR. HEDDERSON: We do review it every year. This particular year we decided not to enhance anything, kept it at the base budget that it is. I do not know the exact figures or whatever that is there, but any time that we were to enhance it, it would not be for a specific area, it would be where the volumes would dictate.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The ferries for La Poile and Grey River, will the people in the area be consulted on the ferries, the design for the ferries?

MR. HEDDERSON: Our consultant, Fleetway, who are basically doing that design, have done that work in going to the islands and looking at the infrastructure, the island itself, the waters, spoken with the communities, basically got their feedback and have incorporated that into, we hope, the design.

MR. JOYCE: I am going to ask – and I already know the answer cannot be given – there is no time frame when there will be a possible ferry in that area.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, we would be getting ahead of ourselves, Eddie. It would only be a guesstimate, and I am not going to do that. I will say that what we are at now, we know we are coming to the end of it in November. From there, we can get it allotted out and then we will see where it all fits. The timeline will become obvious then.

MR. JOYCE: This next question – and I already know the answer also – the roadwork for Margaree and Burgeo, is that under the same consultation within the department?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, again.

MR. JOYCE: On top of it, for all projects, when will the decision be made?

MR. HEDDERSON: I am working through it right now. Like I said, we have feedback from our officials, from MHAs, from anyone, mayors; we have put it all together. Basically, there is so much money to allocate throughout the Province. That is what we are down to now, the last strokes on that. Naturally, given the construction season you know it is going to be imminent.

MR. JOYCE: Any time you are ready to discuss the Bay of Islands, Minister, I am ready.

MR. HEDDERSON: I think we have discussed that.

MR. JOYCE: No way, no – wrong again.

Brush cutting – and I know you wait until the end of the year to see what people need, a bit of work. That is a great program, it helps out – I know down our way this year there is a lot of moose sightings this year compared to normal. Is there any way you can move that up? I know it is hard because you have to wait to see who needs a bit of work, what needs to be done.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. Basically that program has been cancelled this year and work projects will go back to Municipal Affairs. The brush cutting has not been as successful as we would have wanted it to be. Even last year, to be quite honest with you, we had some great difficulty getting sponsors. There is no glory in brush cutting and the safety issues have to be considered there as well.

We have put it back to community enhancement, which gives communities a better opportunity to get work done. As well, cutting manually is not holding up like the mechanical. We do the mechanical and it grubs it right down. We do that usually in the fall of the year and then follow in after the spring of the next year when the shoots are coming up with vegetation control, which then gives us probably up to ten years.

There are some factors that are involved there as well. We have been asked to look at our mandate, and obviously our mandate does not talk about employment creation or whatever. It is gone back to Municipal Affairs and you will not see that program this year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I can tell you, there was good work done out –

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, and that is not to take away, I say to you, Ed, about the good work that was done in some areas, but again, of late, there have been some concerns expressed about the safety and also getting the sponsors. Even some of your colleagues, there was money allocated last year and they passed it up because they could not get a sponsor.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I have two more questions, Mr. Chair. St. Barbe – is there any chance to get a washroom in down there?

MR. HEDDERSON: St. Barbe?

MR. JOYCE: St. Barbe.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, it is not St. Barbe.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

Again, with the infrastructure, we are looking at trying to match it up once we get our boat. This year we are still looking at maintenance, but there is no capital to go down – as a matter of fact, there is a proposal being developed by the community group down there, which looks at the full development of it. In the meantime, we did provide what I call a portable washroom down there and I do not know if any of you have –

MR. JOYCE: So, will it be considered, like something permanent once –

MR. HEDDERSON: Not this year, no.

MR. JOYCE: Not this year?

MR. HEDDERSON: No.

OFFICIAL: I do think it is St. Barbe (inaudible) –

MR. HEDDERSON: That is what I am thinking –

MR. JOYCE: No, it is St. Barbe.

MR. HEDDERSON: I know what you are talking about. The problem down in St. Barbe was that your ticket booth is down in the hotel. So, once you go up and you do your marshalling, basically you have to get out of your car then and go back to the hotel. So last year we did.

Keith, would you describe the unit that we put in?

MR. BOWDEN: It is pretty modular, very much like a mobile home, if you will, that kind of size and self contained. The trouble with many of the sites is the ticket booth or the washrooms themselves are fairly modest structures. The problem in many of the sites is the infrastructure, the water and sewer, and that can well dwarf the cost of the actual structure itself. That is the real challenge at many of the locations, and even getting power to the site.

So even though the washrooms or ticket booths can be quite modest and appear not to be a big investment, the difficulty is the site, and that will vary significantly from site to site. So every site has to be assessed on its own.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

One last question, I am going back to the hospital because it is –

MR. HEDDERSON: You are going to drive me to the hospital, boy. You must not sleep at night at all thinking about that, do you?

MR. JOYCE: I sleep very well, actually.

I will say it now because I do not want any misunderstanding, to say that I am taking something out of a meeting that is (inaudible). From what I learned here tonight, is we are still into the pre-design for the hospital?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you, Eddie.

George, you can clue it up, sir.

MR. MURPHY: Just a couple of more questions. Eddie, we are into a six-year plan for the hospital design.

I have just a couple of more on some of the line items, Minister; 4.2.06 Ferry Vessels in Marine Operations. There are a couple of discrepancies in some of the numbers here that I am looking at, subsection 01, 03, 05, and 07, all sections there. I wonder if you might have the information there and if you might be able to give me an explanation.

For example, Property, Furnishings and Equipment 07, $38,300,000 in the budget for 2011-2012, there was only $2.716 million spent, and budgeted for $10,359,500 here.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, Jamie, go ahead.

MR. CHIPPETT: The $38 million in the 2011-2012 budget included the funding for a third ferry should we have reached an agreement with Kiewit.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. CHIPPETT: As we had not moved very far in the negotiations as of budget time, that funding was not included in 2012-2013. Your $2.7 million in 2011-2012 revised reflects the fact that we did not have a contract for a third ferry.

The $10.4 million in 2012-2013 includes the $5 million for the Winsor, money for the design of the Winsor and the six small ferries, and the remaining payouts for the first two vessels. There are still some milestone payments. I think after a year for each vessel in service there are some milestone payments for Kiewit on those.

I think that is the total, Weldon, for the $10.4 million.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

This $38,300,000 that was not spent then – well basically, about $36 million that was not spent for the third ferry. I just wonder where that money would have shown up when that third ferry is going to be constructed. Shouldn't this number show up somewhere else in the books as being re-appropriated back to general revenue, or where would that be in the department?

MR. CHIPPETT: If we are able to negotiate a successful contract with Kiewit we will be able to structure a contract. We are confident we can structure a contract and make sure we can start construction on that vessel this year. We did not roll the money over per se, and some of that funding was transferred for other capital purposes; as an example, to take our water bomber in March of this year past.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

I was just wondering why that $38 million was not showing up on that particular line. Total ferry vessels, $39,300,000 against that line of $10,359,000. I guess that explains that one there, too.

One more line item, 4.3.03, $18,971,300 in Property, Furnishings and Equipment, there was $34 million plus change spent, and again only this year an appropriation for $1.4 million. I am just wondering if you can explain that one.

MR. CHIPPETT: That is actually the water bomber. That reflects the transfer from the ferry capital account to take possession. Originally, the fourth water bomber was scheduled to be taken from Bombardier in this fiscal year, 2012-2013, but it was actually ready earlier. So we were able to take possession in, I believe it was March.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. What kind of plane was that, a Bombardier?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is the fourth water bomber, the 415 model.

MR. MURPHY: That is the 415, okay. So they are gone from – what was the first one, a 142?

MR. CHIPPETT: The 215s were the six we had before.

MR. MURPHY: The 215s yes, and they were the replacements for the Cansos. There are no more Cansos in the fleet now, is there?

MR. CHIPPETT: No.

MR. MURPHY: They are all gone, right on.

Okay, that does it for the line items. I only have two more questions. As regards to the air ambulance, are we presently dealing with an updated fleet of aircraft and everything, like no problems there? Are we looking at any need to replace them this year?

MR. HEDDERSON: As a matter of fact, we have a little bit of a bonus, because the old air ambulance that we thought we would be retiring still had some time left on it. We still have the third ambulance, the older one and it is still operational. We have that as a spare.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: Plus, we have the other two that are relatively new.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Is there any chance of seeing one of those transferred back to St. Anthony maybe?

MR. HEDDERSON: You will have to ask someone else on that. We fly them, we maintain them. It is Health that decides where they go.

MR. MURPHY: We will have to ask the minister. If there is an extra plane there though, it is ready to go?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, wait now. I had better qualify that.

MR. MOORES: The third plane does not have sufficient hours left on it without significant maintenance to run regularly; the plane we use as a back up. Planes are a lot like boats, they have to come down for scheduled maintenance per Transport Canada requirements.

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. MOORES: There are enough hours left in the plane that we can put it in a week or two at a time when a plane comes out for its scheduled maintenance. The plane is not crewed on a regular basis. We use the existing crews from one of the other planes. It is basically a swing aircraft. It is quite good if you only use it for a few weeks or months of the year.

MR. MURPHY: How many hours left on that one?

MR. MOORES: I am not sure; I would have to check exactly. As a plane gets older it has to go in for regular maintenance more frequently. We figure we can use it two to three months of the year for several years, but to put it in regular service she would not last a year.

MR. MURPHY: She would not last a year on regular service.

MR. MOORES: No.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so are there any plans? Does the department have any plans then to update at least one aircraft anyway in the future?

MR. MOORES: No, because we –

MR. HEDDERSON: We have two relatively new planes. We just took one in last year and the other one came in a year before that, or two years?

MR. MOORES: One is a year old and one is three years old. The remaining life that is left in our old plane, we will use it up rather than go to a contract plane. The back up is contract planes to fill in when our own are on refit, if ours is not available.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

How about helicopter usage in Transportation and Works?

MR. HEDDERSON: We hold the contract for – I think we have six or five?

Go ahead, Weldon.

MR. MOORES: We provide a contract that can be accessed by any department in government for helicopters. On a year-round basis there are six. During the peak seasons in the summer there is a seventh available for several months.

MR. MURPHY: They are holding up the scheduled replacement time on –

MR. MOORES: They are under contract. The existing contract expires April two years from now, so six or eight months prior to then we would go to tender for a new contract.

MR. MURPHY: We do not really have to worry about the maintenance then?

MR. MOORES: No, that is all inclusive.

MR. MURPHY: That is what I was wondering.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is Universal that provides that service.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect.

Just one more question, and I am not even sure, Minister, if you can deal with this one or not. The moose alert system on the highway – is Transportation and Works looking after that?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, we are responsible for them. Basically, we have them at a place now where we are starting to get satisfied that they are working on a regular basis. We have had some challenges. I am not sure if it is the weather or whatever.

Jamie, you can give us the latest update on that.

MR. CHIPPETT: They have worked fairly consistently for about a month. We have had consistent contact with the contractor. They basically replaced all of the major components of the system near Grand Falls. From a software perspective and some of the wiring, the hardware perspective of those, they have done the same software replacement on the Salmonier Line detection systems as well. They have been working and we have been doing tests. There is a log with each of those that shows the times they were triggered. We have been following those and they seem to be working as planned right now.

MR. MURPHY: So they are working for now anyway.

What sort of a warranty did the department get on that particular equipment? I am just wondering about that. Did the department have to expend any more funds for something like that? Did they get warranty coverage from the company when you bought the equipment? Is there such a thing?

MR. GOSSE: We have a one-year warranty on all of our projects, except paving which is a two-year warranty. Warranties do not start until we accept the product. We have not signed off on acceptance of the moose-detection systems at this point. The warranty will kick in after we say: Yes, we are satisfied.

MR. MURPHY: That would be something for anything government is getting?

MR. GOSSE: Yes, and there was no extra cost with the upgrades that Deputy Chippett just mentioned.

MR. MURPHY: I was just wondering about if there were any extra-added cost to government because of the problems that they had in breaking it in. So, it did not cost the government a cent to have this repaired anyway.

MR. GOSSE: The extra costs would have been totally the contractors.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, perfect. That is great. At least the taxpayer does not have to pay for that.

One last question, I guess, and I will finish off with this one. It is still the moose question. Over on the West Coast they have a section of moose fencing over there, am I right? How is that working out as against –

MR. CHIPPETT: It is in the Stephenville area. There is about ten kilometres of the fence up. There will be total of 17.2 or 17.3 kilometres, I think. Initially, our tender was for fifteen kilometres, but based on the end points of the fence, it was more convenient to extend it for longer. We know it keeps the moose on the outside, but we have not completed an evaluation, given that the full fence is not up. It would be premature to comment on how it works over time. They also have gates for the moose to get off the road if they get in between the section of fence.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. CHIPPETT: I guess the choice to put it where it is was based on the number of accidents in that area and also the geography or topography of the area. It is a good place to put a fence, and I think there is an underpass. There is a multi –

MR. GOSSE: There was a large multi-plate structure over a brook that was much bigger than the brook needed to be and it gives large animals, like a moose, an opportunity to cross under the highway. The fence comes into this structure. They should naturally follow along.

MR. MURPHY: Yes, New Brunswick has it in some other areas.

I will, for sure, finish up this time. On the evaluation question and accidents and everything, is the department – and may be a question for Justice Estimates and they are already passed. Is the department keeping a record of accidents or incidents with moose in these particular areas that they will probably run some sort of an awareness campaign on it in the future. Are you keeping stats on accidents and that sort of thing?

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, over the last year or so, we are moving to the GPS system. Before, accident reports were coming in, but they were talking about a stretch of highway rather than a specific point. In January, we have our traffic collision management system up and running and we are using that as well.

Gary, just continue on there with your technical –

MR. GOSSE: As the minister said, starting January of this year we have started using a new Collision Data Management System. All of the reporting by both enforcement agencies, both the RNC and the RCMP, now are done electronically and they locate collisions by GPS coordinates. We can do reports out of our new Collision Data Management System by type of accident; exact location now rather than a stretch of highway that could be five kilometres long.

MR. MURPHY: What is the most recent statistic that you have as regards to the number of accidents? I keep saying I am going to finish up but I just want –

MR. GOSSE: This year's collisions, we have them in our database now up to the end of March. We do not have the accident reports for April or May entered yet. The last full year of data that we would have is 2011, and unfortunately I do not have that number with me tonight.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

You will make that number available?

MR. GOSSE: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Mr. Minister, I will clue up there.

As regards to a final comment, our role in the House of Assembly here is to hold the government at account. We have to question numbers and everything all the time. It is part of our duty. It is part of our role too as Opposition to make sure that government is going to be carrying on its role by giving good governance to the people; having said that, hopefully we have been kind and gentle towards the staff here as regards to our role.

I want to thank you again for answering the questions on behalf of the NDP, and on the part of Eddie as well, Mr. Joyce. Thank you very much for doing the service that you are doing. Thank you very much for being forthright and answering some of these questions for us tonight, Mr. Minister. You have a fine staff. I want to congratulate you for having such a fine staff and being around tonight to answer questions.

Again, thank you.

MR. HEDDERSON: George, to be fair, you have to love it when one last question leads into another last question and then another last question.

MR. MURPHY: It is just the journalist in me.

MR. HEDDERSON: To be fair, I would have to go back to Eddie and say: Eddie, would you have one last question?

MR. JOYCE: One last question.

MR. HEDDERSON: If it is on the hospital, I am going.

MR. JOYCE: I am not going to bring it up and I do not know the technical part –

MR. HEDDERSON: No ifs now, or buts.

MR. JOYCE: If you had a project ready to go to design at the vicinity of say a $750 million hospital, just hypothetical, how long would it take to get that design work done, an estimate? I know if it was a school it is about a year, a year-and-a-half.

MR. HEDDERSON: You are not going to get a timeline out of me tonight.

MR. JOYCE: No, no, because I know a school took a year-and-a-half to do. I know the long-term care facility took about a year-and-a-half to do, a year. Is there any estimate of how long a design would take for such a large structure?

MR. HEDDERSON: It will take a while.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. MURPHY: Can I ask you my next part?

MR. HEDDERSON: What is that?

MR. MURPHY: Can I ask you –

MR. HEDDERSON: George, just to go back to the stages: business case, pre-design, and once you get to pre-design that is where a lot of the bulk work is done.

Jamie, one last word from you.

CHAIR: We just took the last question from Eddie. You clue up, Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: I am just going to thank everybody. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for your leeway tonight. Thank you, members, also for sitting in tonight.

Minister, thank you and your staff, I know it is a tough road because the conditions in Newfoundland and Labrador always present challenges to the department. Please, please, if you can, recognize the workers out in the field who do a lot of work to keep our roads safe and keep our roads up to an area. I know a lot of them personally and I know how much they put into that.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, to my colleagues on all sides of the House, thank you very much for participating, and our support staff.

Of course, I cannot say enough for the people in my department. We have probably the largest number of employees and doing some of the services that are so crucial to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. They are out all hours of the day and night, either on boats, flyers, or in the air. Again, we are very appreciative.

I will take the liberty of making sure, through my deputy minister and ADMs, that the comments you have made with regard to our workers will be passed on to them. I am sure they will be very appreciative to know that you notice and that you appreciate what they do.

To our Chair, back to you, and we will finish up.

CHAIR: Yes, we still have a couple of little details to look after.

First of all, I will call for the subheads.

CLERK: 1.1.01 to 4.3.03 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 to 4.3.03 inclusive carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.3.03 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Department of Transportation and Works, total heads carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Transportation and Works carried without amendment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: ‘Aye'.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Transportation and Works carried without amendment.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

I would like to do the same and thank our members, our Committee, the staff, and here at the Clerk's Table as well for all of the patience and co-operation.

With that, I will ask for a motion to adjourn.

MR. JOYCE: So moved.

CHAIR: So moved.

Thank you.

On motion, the Committee adjourned sine die.