The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the Legislative Chamber of the Colonial Building.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Smith): Order, please!

I will now call the meeting to order and first of all have the members of the Committee introduce themselves.

My name is Gerald Smith, I am the MHA for Port au Port and Chairman of the Committee.

MR. WOODFORD: Rick Woodford, MHA, Humber Valley.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Rick is Vice-Chairman.

MR. WHELAN: Donald Whelan, MHA, Harbour Main.

MR. PENNEY: Melvin Penney, MHA, Lewisporte.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, Minister, I ask you to introduce the members of your staff here with you this evening.

DR. GIBBONS: Okay, I have with me, on my left, Hal Stanley, Deputy Minister and to his left, Martin Sheppard, Assistant Deputy for Energy; on my immediate right, Barbara Wakeham, Assistant Deputy for Support Services and Lands; next to Barbara is Paul Dean, Assistant Deputy for Mines and next to Paul is Len Clarke, our Director of Financial Operations; I am not sure that is the exact title Len, but it is close; and we are missing Dr. Nazir, the Assistant Deputy for Forestry and Wildlife. At lunchtime, Dr. Nazir had to go home with the 'flu but he is hoping that he will be here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Minister.

Just to briefly outline the way the proceedings will run here this evening: you will be given the opportunity to make an opening statement, you are allowed a period of fifteen minutes if you so desire and - I think Dr. Nazir is here now.

If, on any of the questions, you defer to members of your staff, I ask that they first of all identify themselves before speaking so that it will be properly recorded. As you see, these proceedings are being recorded this evening. After that, Mr. Woodford will have fifteen minutes to make a statement or to question and then, for each other person after that, it will be ten minutes.

Mr. Minister, over to you.

DR. GIBBONS: Thank you very much.

I note now, Dr. Nazir has arrived, and I know he has the 'flu, so we will keep over on the left corner here.

Mr. Chairman, we are pleased to appear before you this evening. This is the first time that I have appeared as the Minister of the new Department of Natural Resources, in addition to my former responsibilities for Mines and Energy matters, we now have as well, the responsibility for land, wildlife and forestry. I think that covers it, doesn't it?

AN OFFICIAL: Inland fisheries.

DR. GIBBONS: And Inland fisheries as well, as a growing future responsibility, and we have a little bit of that that is our way right now.

I have in front of me, a document that is thirty-three pages long, and last night, when I read it for the first time, I think it was about forty-six. I discussed this earlier and the thought was that, maybe I shouldn't read it all into the record because that would keep us probably for an hour. What I can do, is, quickly go through it and it will be available here and I guess it could be available to be part of the Hansard. Is that the way it would be if I deposit a copy?

MR. CHAIRMAN: If that is your wish.

DR. GIBBONS: I just want to touch on some of the highlights of this new department that we have brought together in the last six months.

The new division, in this department, of Lands Management, all aspects of lands including the management of ATV regulations, that was transferred to the department about three months after the department was formed, transferred to us from the Environment department, and all other aspects of the Lands Management Division including surveys and mapping etcetera. I won't get into great detail, as we can get into some detail in discussion of that particular section later; enough to say, the Lands branch has allocated $3.7 million of the total Budget of the department, about $3.7 million, and this year we are expecting about $2.6 million in revenue from the various lease payments etcetera, in lands.

The second part that I have in the notes covers the mineral industry, and before I get into describing the structure of the department relative to the mineral industry, I will say just a few words about the industry itself. In the last year the industry has really turned around. Back about two years ago we hit rock-bottom in terms of the value of production, and the number of dollars being spent on mineral exploration. In 1993 we were down to a little over $8 million being spent annually on mineral exploration from about $40 million back in 1988, so we really went down rock-bottom, but in the last year we started to turn around and in 1994, came back nicely.

In the value of mineral production, as an example, we increased by $136 million last year over 1993. We had an increase of 19 per cent in one year, so we started to climb back. As we go into 1995, looking forward, we are now forecasting a further increase this year of another $95 million which is approximately an 11 per cent increase in 1995 over 1994, so the value of production in the industry is going to continue to grow. We are forecasting now that we will probably reach about $930 million this year, and it could be higher than that, depending on what further things may happen with price. The iron ore sector is going flat out compared to some previous years and they can sell every ounce they can produce - Mineral exploration likewise.

Last year we came back to about $12.5 million from $8.5 million the year before, and now as we go into 1995 we are forecasting probably a doubling in value in 1995, from about $12.5 million to about $25 million. Of course, a lot of this is tied to the big mineral discovery in Labrador, the Voisey's Bay nickel/cobalt/copper discovery. That was announced around the end of October or around the first of November and since that time I think we have about 48,000 mineral claims staked, new mineral claims. I haven't heard the final figure today - Paul?

There were about 48,000 mineral claims in the last six months, since the first of November, and that number of claims alone reflects the requirement to spend at least $10 million in grassroots exploration for first year work. That doesn't count the advanced exploration that will be done in terms of drilling and so on, on advanced projects, so we have a lot of excitement this year in the exploration sector, particularly all over Labrador and particularly focusing on Nain and the regions west, south and north of Nain. There is going to be a lot of action.

On the Island there are good things happening as well. Up on the Baie Verte Peninsula we have the Nugget Pond project which we expect to be in production before the end of this year. There is a possibility that the Rambler deposit may be getting back into production before the end of this year. Over near Springdale, a project called Hammerdown, a gold project, the company is talking about going underground this year, 1995, and that, I believe, will also become a mine in the near future. And an antimony deposit south of Bishop's Falls on the Northwest Gander River, an announcement came out on this one only about a month ago, about a million tons, which we translate into being about a ten-year mine for antimony. I don't believe there is another operating antimony mine in Canada right now. This project will have underground exploration this year and that is going to become a mine in the near future. There is also activity at St. Lawrence. A company has taken an option on the St. Lawrence fluorspar property and it is presently going through a feasibility study. We gave them an option which expires next April and we hope that between now and then they make a decision to go forward.

With all that excitement in the field, in the industry, we are still going to continue to do some of our programs through our geological survey. Our mineral lands people are busier than they have ever been before and in total, in the mines branch, we expect to spend about $6.8 million this year on all aspects of our programs.

In the Energy branch, of course, the key thing is what is happening with Hibernia. Hibernia is going very nicely. A few days ago, I believe it was on Friday of last week, the company put out an announcement that the M-20 super module being built at Bull Arm was completed. They had signed a certificate of completion of the M-20 and delivered it to the company that was doing the construction, Passb, a real milestone. That one was completed before any other super module being built elsewhere in the world - two are being built in Italy and two in Korea. So things are going very well at Hibernia right now and as we look forward to other milestones over the next year or so, between now and July we will have four super modules arrive from Korea and Italy, to be put together with the one just completed out at Bull Arm. Drilling modules will be delivered to the site, other components will be completed. Between now and next April - twelve months - there will be two supply boats completed at the Marystown Shipyard. One is due to be completed by January, one by April, and as we get into 1996, if everything stays on schedule, Hibernia by the end of 1996 will basically be completed, waiting for mating and waiting for tow-out in July of 1997, and first oil in December, 1997.

We have some other things happening in oil. We are having discussions on the Terra Nova project. They have been ongoing now for a few months. They are ongoing this week, continuing, and we hope that some time this year we get a decision on a development plan for Terra Nova, and maybe - possibly - even the submission of a development plan, but first and foremost we would like to see a decision on the submission of a development plan.

We have a land sale going on in the offshore, announced recently - closes in September. Of course, the other area of oil and gas, what is happening in Western Newfoundland, onshore - Hunt Oil spudded a well last September - September 18 - on the Port au Port, at Garden Hill. They have continued to drill and operate that well. Right now, we are expecting that they will still be working on it for a few more weeks, but they are getting close to completion.

We are looking forward to the results of this, and what comes next. Is this company going to do another well onshore or off? They are struggling with that decision right now because they do have some offshore licences which expire next January 15, and they must be diligently pursuing a well by that date or else the offshore licences expire. So they have some serious decisions ahead of them, and based on what they find, they have to make that serious decision relative to a future well in their offshore lands, so I am hoping we get some positive decisions.

There are other things I could talk about in energy, but I will keep moving right now instead of getting into further detail. Maybe I should mention the budget. I don't see the summary budget figure there, so I will keep moving on into the Forestry and Wildlife sector, starting first with forestry.

This year, 1995, is the first year that we are going to see our paper mills in the black for at least, I think, five years, Dr. Nazir? At least five years. The forestry sector also has turned a corner in the last few months. The prices have increased substantially. Since last March, a year ago, the price of newsprint has increased by 40 per cent. A year ago we would never have believed that was going to happen, and the company, certainly, a year ago did not expect that to happen. We all know what they were going through a year ago in terms of their labour relations. But something happened in the international markets and the price has just continued to climb, and we expect further increases this year, so the paper mills should do well - but not only paper.

Two years ago, in our lumber sector, we broke 50 million board feet for the first time since 1954. It took thirty-nine years to break 50 million board feet again. We went better than 55 million in 1994, and this year, 1995, we are expecting to reach maybe 60 million board feet, so even that sector is going well, but within limits.

Not everything is perfect in forestry. I want to mention, in particular, one item that has been in the news recently - that's our insect infestation. We have been very fortunate in the last few years. For the last five years we have primarily had budworm, very low levels of budworm infestation, not very significant at all, but the budworm. This past year, was a gorgeous summer and the hemlock looper must have loved the weather as well as the rest of us did because when the egg counts were made this Fall in the sampling that was done, we found a significant increase in infestation of the hemlock looper right through the heart of Newfoundland - right from Grand Falls down to Stephenville and from the Codroy Valley up through to Gros Morne, right through the heart of our paper mill country, a major increase in infestation.

Last year, we had to spray about 10,000 hectares and this year our people are telling us that over 200,000 hectares are significantly infested and over 100,000 is moderately to severely infested. Moderate infestation is ten or twelve eggs per branch sample. This year in the sampling that was done we have had many samples that have gone beyond 300 and we have had some gone beyond 500 in egg counts per sample. So we have a significant increase in infestation and we are addressing that.

In the next little while we have to decide how we are going to attack it in terms of our spray program. We are dealing with that now in terms of finalizing the boundaries of the areas that are infested to determine just what we need to spray and we are going to be finalizing and announcing a decision shortly on how we are going to do that. Because we have short opportunity to get the logistics in place and we have to do the spraying in the second half of June and in early July.

That summarizes the forestry side. Wildlife: There are some things happening in wildlife. Of course, it is a great concern to make sure that our wildlife species are managed properly. And because of concerns about the lack of adequately counting the number of moose and the number of caribou on the Island, in particular, over the last many years when only one or two or three areas might be counted, we made a decision a few months ago to put money in for a major count of our big game over a three-year period, starting in the past fiscal year and going into this fiscal year and the next one. In this past fiscal year, we counted ten moose areas and two caribou areas and we are going to do ten of fifteen areas next year and the rest the year after. So we are making good progress in that, with a $1.8 million budget, for example, for the major big game count. Otherwise, there is enforcement in wildlife and various other related matters that we can talk about when we get into questions.

One subject I want to touch on in particular is the George River caribou herd. We have had to pay some particular attention to this one because of concerns raised about some hunting practices in the area. We have just completed, I have it in my brief case right now, what we call a discussion paper on hunting practices in Labrador for the George River caribou herd and we are expecting to make that public in the next few days. We would then be starting a process of consultation with Mr. Whalen, who is legislative advisor to me in the department, chairing a committee to make the rounds of Labrador communities to have some discussions on the George River caribou herd. Altogether, the Forestry and Wildlife branch of the department has a budget of $35 million to carry out its numerous projects.

Mr. Chairman, that covers my introductory remarks, I could have gotten into much more detail, but it's all here. Mr. Stanley is bringing to my attention, on the forestry side in particular, one thing I forgot, we did have a federal-provincial forestry agreement for the last five years; it expired last week on March 31 and normally we were spending about $12 million federal-provincial money per year. With this agreement expiring, we made a budget decision provincially to put in $10 million to replace that this year. When we get into the details of the budget, you can see that we have effectively replaced the forestry agreement money with provincial dollars.

Thanks very much. I open it to whatever questions you may have.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Minister.

Before we start the questioning, I would just like to welcome Mr. Shelley. For the record, Paul, I ask if you would introduce yourself.

MR. SHELLEY: Paul Shelley, MHA for Baie Verte - White Bay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Paul.

Okay, Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like, if I may, afterwards, Minister, to have a copy of your opening statement as soon as possible.

DR. GIBBONS: Sure can.

MR. WOODFORD: If not after the meeting, then sometime in the House in the next week or so.

DR. GIBBONS: Sure, you are welcome.

MR. WOODFORD: A couple of questions as it pertains to the mining sector. What about Goose Arm? Is there anything new on that marble find in there now in Goose Arm in my particular area?

DR. GIBBONS: There is not a lot happening on it right now.

MR. WOODFORD: No.

DR. GIBBONS: It is a nice deposit with a variety of colours. I'm going to ask Paul Dean, the ADM of Mines, to see if he is more up-to-date on it than I am because I have not heard anything on it recently myself.

MR. DEANS: No, Mr. Woodford, there is not much new to report. The deposit is still held by Tiara Marble which is a Newfoundland-based company. There was a fair amount of drilling and evaluation of the deposit done really in late 1993. Some of those reports from the consultants and so on were coming forward in 1994. Really, not very much has happened with that particular deposit during 1994. I know that the principals of the company are interested in bringing it forward but haven't had the financial resources to devote to it in recent months.

MR. WOODFORD: What about the Glover Island drilling, anything new on that?

DR. GIBBONS: Paul.

MR. DEAN: There was some drilling done this past summer again on Glover Island, some of which was encouraging. In general, there is a fair amount of gold in several different prospects on Glover Island but not yet enough, in enough grades or tonnage to say there is an economic deposit. Our view in the department is that more drilling is required to evaluate all the resources on Glover Island.

MR. WOODFORD: Minister, you mentioned the Voisey's Bay find down there. I was just reading an article - I think it was in yesterday's paper, or the day before - about some aerial surveys done now that have gone somewhere from three kilometres up to approximately seven kilometres in length, the possible length of that deposit. What do you expect to see there this year? More claims staked? The claims that are staked worked? To what extent do you see any activity there this year?

DR. GIBBONS: Labrador is going to be crawling with prospectors this year. Voisey's Bay is a really intriguing story. Voisey's Bay was discovered by two prospectors. About six years ago, a young man named Albert Chislett was given the first $5,000 prospector's grant by the Minister of Mines at the time, Jerome Dinn. He got our first prospector's grant. He was into construction out in the Goulds at the time and he gradually started to get into prospecting, and over the last few years more and more into prospecting. Mr. Chislett and his partner, Chris Verbiski out of Buchans, another prospector -

MR. WOODFORD: Oh yes, I know him very well, Mort's son.

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, Mort Verbiski's son. These two guys, looking for prospects in Newfoundland and Labrador, noting all the excitement about diamonds in the Northwest Territories a few years ago, said: There must be some rocks in Labrador that may have diamonds, there must be, like the rocks in the Territories. They went and staked some rocks in Labrador that are similar to rocks in the Northwest Territories. They went up there doing some prospecting back in 1993.

They found some rusty rocks - they didn't find diamonds, yet - but they found some rusty rocks. It turned out to be nickel. When they went back up there last year they did some geophysics on the target and came back, and said to Diamond Fields, with whom they had an option agreement: We think we should do some drilling on this. Diamond Fields gave them some backing to drill four holes. They struck immediately, right near the surface, massive sulphide and the rest is basically history.

Voisey's Bay has turned into what we are now saying, and the world is now saying, in the mineral sector, one of the most significant mineral discoveries in North America in recent history. At this time, they have said publicly, they have 30 million to 35 million tons of good grade nickel, cobalt and copper. In the announcement that you, Mr. Vice-Chair, just referred to that was put out earlier this week, the company has completed an aeromagnetic survey and the three kilometre zone is now seven, so they need to continue to drill to see just how big it is. They need to drill it off, then they need to get an average grade over all of it, so in the months ahead we are going to see, I believe, a lot of drilling in that area.

Apart from that, outside of that area, we are going to see a lot of people looking for rusty rocks and other prospects.

MR. WOODFORD: The way it seems to me now, from the discussions and the talk I've heard on it, there is a real possibility that if it is developed it will be an open pit mine. Am I right?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, it is right on the surface.

MR. WOODFORD: Right on the surface.

DR. GIBBONS: But the way it is now you can see that it could be an open pit mine initially, and as they do more drilling it is possible that some parts of it would have to be done as an underground mine. We don't know yet. We need to see the more extensive drilling. Certainly, when you go right through the gravel and immediately into the massive sulphide and the orientation structure, it is certainly open pittable. It has all the prospects to be a mine that will last a generation. It is like Buchans when Buchans was found in 1905 and lasted until, what was it, 1970-something? I don't remember.

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible) late -

DR. GIBBONS: It's the most exciting thing we've had happen in my lifetime as a geologist in Newfoundland.

MR. WOODFORD: I would say there are a lot of base metals there - a little bit of gold in the mine, too, I would say.

DR. GIBBONS: In the Voisey's Bay case, we are talking nickel, cobalt and copper.

MR. WOODFORD: That is it? Those are the three identified?

DR. GIBBONS: Nickel, cobalt and copper.

MR. WOODFORD: In the Buchans one there was gold - in fact, the company used to always pay their overhead with it.

DR. GIBBONS: That was copper, lead, zinc, gold, silver, a different type of mine.

MR. WOODFORD: Copper, lead, zinc, silver, yes. Well, it is interesting.

Forestry: I notice in the estimate, the head 4.1.11, Corner Brook Pulp and Paper Ltd. (Statutory), under Property, Furnishings and Equipment, there was nothing budgeted for last year, and I can understand that if it is - this, I would say, refers to the $15 million for the land acquisition?

DR. GIBBONS: There is a -

MR. WOODFORD: Page 148 of the Estimates.

DR. GIBBONS: Page 148, 4.1.11. That is the money for the Kruger lands, yes. Initially, we were going to make one payment in the last fiscal year and make the other payment by June coming, a month from now. We decided, because of our Budget situation, that we could make the full payment by the end of the fiscal year. You notice there we get $100,000 revenue.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, I know.

DR. GIBBONS: We got a discount for the interest that would have been accumulated. So we paid for it all.

MR. WOODFORD: So really, they got the $15 million in one year.

DR. GIBBONS: They got it all now. Instead of having to wait two months to get the second payment they have it all now. But they discounted that second payment by the $100,000 which would have been the interest equivalent.

MR. WOODFORD: What about the documentation of the released properties now? How has that proceeded, with regard to release of properties for Crown land?

DR. GIBBONS: I will ask Ms. Wakeham, who is responsible for Crown Lands, the ADM, to come and answer, tell us where that is right now. I know they've been working on it diligently because there are a great number of properties and a great lot of documentation. She can up-date us.

MS. WAKEHAM: We have approximately 6,000 files that have been transferred as a result of the transfer of the lands with Kruger. We are microfilming all those files at the moment. We are hoping to have them completed - probably some time in May all the documentation will be completed. We have as a priority any commercial properties that have to change their tenure. We have been dealing with them on a case-by-case basis as they are coming through.

With respect to the cottage developments that were there and had been registered with Kruger prior to the conveyance to the Province, those, we have now sent letters to all 573 people and have provided them with permitting documents. And they are in the process now of coming through, so they should all be cleaned up I would expect, probably by May as well.

DR. GIBBONS: After that date we should be ready to start.

MS. WAKEHAM: We essentially asked for six months from November so that we could be able to integrate all of the information into the lands titling system and to allow us to go and do the change-over in terms of the tenures into Crown land. So we expect it will be in good shape then to open it up for applications from the end of May.

MR. WOODFORD: So, this summer then, the Crown should be accepting applications for anything in those particular areas.

MS. WAKEHAM: Yes.

MR. WOODFORD: Well, I must say that I had a few problems, as I stated in the House when we were dealing with that particular legislation, with respect to residents in my area who had problems in obtaining a title to their properties. And I must say to Barbara, it was straightened up in conjunction with Don Windsor on the West Coast and so on; so we have the three residential properties, I must say, straightened up fairly quickly.

I ran into a problem afterwards - and I might as well bring it up now, I think you are aware of it - especially with one property that we didn't expect to come up. It had to do with the actual signing of the debenture for this particular money with Kruger; it was one property, I don't know if you can recall it or not. I am wondering if that was just straightened up for that particular person or - apparently, it was a problem with the banks and the people with whom they signed the agreement.

MS. WAKEHAM: There are two things that happened with respect to the Kruger properties. In the first case, when the agreement was signed, there were a number of properties where the transactions had been completed and with respect to those properties, they had all been listed in Schedule A attached to the actual conveyance; and two of the cases that you brought to my attention were actually listed in the Schedules so we solved that without any problem.

In the third case, the property had not finalized the transactions prior to November 28 and the land reverted to the Crown. In the urban areas, what had happened was that all the land Kruger had was underwritten by the banks, so there was a mortgage on that. And the requirement would have been, in order to finalize that, to get a release of that mortgage from the bankers themselves and, in the past, that had been done on a quarterly basis and Corner Brook Pulp and Paper themselves were bringing the things back, doing the releases of the mortgages so the houses could be sold. And what we have done right now - I have talked to Doug Kendricks at Corner Brook Pulp and Paper and we have asked the solicitors to bring forward any requests of that nature to Corner Brook Pulp and Paper so they could still take the action.

MR. WOODFORD: I must say, they are acting a lot more expeditiously now than they did before. I don't know if you have a certain characteristic that someone else didn't have, but Doug Kendricks' crew weren't too easy, they didn't move it along too quickly before, previous to this legislation, believe you me, even though it was done on a quarterly basis, because I had all kinds of cases of them.

MS. WAKEHAM: I haven't had any problems with Mr. Kendricks since.

MR. WOODFORD: That's great.

On the access roads, I notice that last year you budgeted $1.8 million and you spent $2.4, which is wonderful, I wouldn't have complained if you had it up to $4 million, to tell you the truth, because as far as I am concerned, some of the money that is being spent on access roads, the ones I know about anyway, has benefited and is one of the reasons why you had an increase, I think, in the total lumber production and board feet of lumber this year - and it is going to be bigger next year. You said it is going to 60 million board feet.

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, we think it may go to 60 million.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, I think it may go to that, for sure, and more because I know that one operator in my area has 1.3 million board feet of logs on the ground now, and that to him is about a 50 or 60 per cent increase already on the ground, and ready to go to the mill.

But, in any case, what about the - now, I know this year you have budgeted $1.8 million again, the same thing. Tenders, for that - I think last year when I talked to you, Minister, you said that you were going to try to get tenders for those access roads out early, in January or February, because there is always a problem in late Summer and into the Fall with people at those roads when it is messy, snowy, frost in the ground, and so on. Is there any indication that tenders will be out in the near future?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, it won't take very long. I have already seen the prioritized list, myself, that our people have put together, and we have our budget right now. I am not sure of the exact timing. I could ask Dr. Nazir when he expects the tender call to be made, but we have no reason for any delay.

DR. NAZIR: (Inaudible) the contractors are able to inspect the site so that they can bid properly. A number of tenders are, in fact, ready but we want to delay it a little bit so that they are able to inspect the site a little bit.

MR. WOODFORD: This is one of the problems they have every year, that of the tenders coming out early enough in the Fall so that they would be able to bid, and when the snow goes they would be able to start construction, but I guess you didn't get that done this year. Is there going to be an extension to Bridgers Pond, the White River Road area and Chouse Brook?

DR. NAZIR: Yes. Bridgers Pond is in, and Chouse Brook I am not sure. I will have to check the list here.

DR. GIBBONS: It looks like number eleven on the priority list, and Bridgers Pond looks like number four on the priority list, so I would expect that both of those would be on the program.

MR. WOODFORD: Two actual projects, I must say - well, really, for the community of Hampden it is the lifeblood. There is almost nothing else there, and that is where the Chouse Brook is located, and the Bridgers Pond - White River Road one is the lifeblood for the Cormack area, Reidville, and parts of Deer Lake, for both pulp wood production, and lumber, but where you have the first call on saw logs I think is a big plus and something that should be followed up, especially in those areas where this would benefit, because there are people there working all this winter, just cutting the logs, bringing them to the mill, and those particular people, the sawmill operators are paying the loggers. It is a good, excellent program and I think it should be kept up.

Wildlife, you mentioned the study that was done. You did ten or twelve areas this year?

DR. GIBBONS: We have completed ten moose areas and two caribou areas this past year and we are going to do another ten to fifteen in the year ahead, depending on weather. It will probably end up around the same as 1994-'95.

MR. WOODFORD: You probably won't give me all the information, but what does it look like now, overall?

DR. GIBBONS: Well, there are ups and there are downs. The staff are getting the details together right now and we are hoping they will have all the details together within the next month, I would think - Dr. Nazir? because if we need to make any adjustments we have to make them before the draw is done, and the draw is normally done by the middle of May, late May, so there is a real push on to compile all the statistics from last year's count, just in case we need to make any adjustments.

MR. WOODFORD: With those particular areas?

DR. GIBBONS: With those ten areas, plus two caribou areas that have been done, yes.

MR. WOODFORD: So, if any of those areas are down there will be an adjustment made on the number of licenses issued to that particular area?

DR. GIBBONS: It is possible, yes. It is possible they could have adjustments down and adjustments up, based on the count, and this is what we have told the public. We are doing this big count and in the guide that was mailed to hunters we said, `We warn you now, if there is a serious problem with an area we will have to make an adjustment downwards. If, on the other hand, we see a significant increase in some areas we could make changes the other way as well.' We hope, in the next few weeks, to have all the statistics ready so that we can make these decisions.

MR. WOODFORD: Will the outfitters, if they happen to be in those areas, be adjusted?

DR. GIBBONS: Well, again, it depends on how significant the adjustments are, because right now we have a guideline in place that we give outfitters no more than 10 per cent of the total number of licences that are issued, so if there is an increase in the total number of licences, then automatically there would be an increase for outfitters. Unless we change that policy, there wouldn't be, so right now we haven't made any change in policy.

MR. WOODFORD: Because there was some adjustment made last year to the outfitters. I know there was one about the outfitters, that licences they didn't use reverted. That was, as far as I am concerned, a good thing. I don't know how that went over with the outfitters.

DR. GIBBONS: It worked very well and last year, I think, for the first time, or one of the few times, we used up all the licences because we did redirect to people who could use them -

MR. WOODFORD: Exactly.

DR. GIBBONS: - from people who were not using them. I think, for the first time, a year ago we had the full 10 per cent used by outfitters, and they are bumping that ceiling again now this year. They are coming in and saying: We can use more if we can get them.

MR. WOODFORD: That's good.

I have to get back to forestry again, for one question I missed. I am after having quite a few requests from loggers in the Hampden area specifically who primarily cut for Abitibi-Price. They are cutting in the Chain Lakes area. Abitibi has very little wood left there. In fact, they may finish it this summer. I think there is only about 3,000 or 3,500 cubic metres left there. They have made some requests to Kruger - I think Kevin has probably been talking to you about it - to access some of what they call over-mature timber in that particular area that Kruger is not harvesting. Is there anything new on that, or anything you can do on it besides - I know the first thing they are going to say, Kruger is going to say, well, we need more land; if you offer us something we will give you something.

DR. GIBBONS: I don't have the answer on that. Although it has been raised with me, it slips my mind right now. Dr. Nazir?

DR. NAZIR: We had checked with both companies, Abitibi-Price as well as Kruger. Kruger have indicated that they plan to harvest that area, and they have no intention of leaving it unharvested, so if the area is not surplus to their needs they don't intend to release it for Abitibi-Price. So Abitibi has only that area which was with the Crown and which was already turned over to them.

Abitibi has been advised of the situation. The paper union had also raised this issue. We approach Kruger, and Kruger's response was that it is fairly close to their mill.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes.

DR. NAZIR: And it is a low-cost wood, therefore, they want to harvest themselves.

MR. WOODFORD: So Kruger is going to harvest it themselves?

DR. NAZIR: Yes.

MR. WOODFORD: That is the bottom line.

DR. NAZIR: So far, that is the position they have taken.

MR. WOODFORD: It will be interesting to see, now, when Kruger is going to harvest it.

DR. NAZIR: Now, if they don't take that position and they don't harvest it, and the area is beginning to fall down, then certainly the department will step in again and ask them to either harvest it or lease it.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, because the department would have some control there, to a certain extent, because is it still so that your department has to approve their annual allowable cut?

DR. NAZIR: Yes.

MR. WOODFORD: So it still has to come to you for approval. You could probably tell them, that particular area should be harvested.

What happens in those cases, especially when it is close like that, is it creates a lot of friction. Here are loggers, thirty-five or forty loggers, looking for work, and there is all kinds of timber there but it belongs to another company. They can't understand why it couldn't be cut for Abitibi-Price.

Anyway, there are discussions on the go now and it is nice to be able to hear that at least they are going to harvest it; that takes the pressure off everybody.

DR. GIBBONS: It certainly was a hot issue with the loggers' union. It came (inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: Oh, yes, in fact, they are probably in this week to see you again, are they? Were they in or on the way or something?

DR. GIBBONS: Not this week. A couple of weeks ago.

MR. WOODFORD: Well, I won't take any more time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr. Woodford, thank you Minister.

Mr. Penney.

MR. PENNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, I only have a couple of very general questions, but before I put them to you, I wonder if we could look at a couple of the figures in the Estimates.

First, 2.1.06, page 137. There is a significant difference in the figures for 1995-1996 compared to the previous year for Geological Survey, from $92,000 up to $485,000. I think the bulk of that is in .01, .02 and .03. Could you explain it, please?

DR. GIBBONS: This particular one, 2.1.06, you will notice it is called Geological Survey - MDAII. A few months ago we signed a one-year extension to our mineral development agreement with Ottawa, so we have some extra money in there because of a one-year extension to our mineral development agreement. Therefore, we are going to be able to carry on some extra programs this year. That is where that money comes from - extra field programs. There are some significant field programs, one, in particular, in Labrador, in what we call the Kanairiktok belt, and another one in the Buchans - Robert's Arm belt on the Island. Two big multi-disciplinary programs are going to be done under that looking basically at mineral potential.

MR. PENNEY: So some of that money you are talking about, coming in from the Federal Government, is actually shown in the revised 1994-1995 figures, $338,000.

DR. GIBBONS: We had - I'm not sure what the explanation is for that one. Paul?

MR. DEAN: The one-year extension to the agreement the minister mentioned was actually signed in July, I believe, of 1994, so at the time when last year's Estimates were approved, we didn't know whether we were going to get the agreement or not. The agreement was signed in July. That enabled us to enter into contracts with the Federal Government, to contract some of their funds to the Province in order for us to start field programs in 1994, which we did in the case of the Buchans - Robert's Arm project.

MR. PENNEY: So the federal revenue is actually $338,700 plus $284,000.

MR. DEAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR. PENNEY: Okay, 4.1.03, page 146, Forest Management. We are looking at again a significant increase from $689,000 to over $3 million. Obviously, the answer has to be the revenue line. Last year, we had a revenue from the Federal Government of over $2 million. This year it is down to $228,000. Could you just elaborate a little bit, please?

DR. GIBBONS: Well that is -

MR. PENNEY: That is the one you referred to earlier.

DR. GIBBONS: That is the magic $10 million.

MR. PENNEY: That is it, okay.

DR. GIBBONS: Alright? That is one of the areas where the provincial money is starting to show up. The revenue for last year was from our federal forestry agreement. This year, all that money is on a provincial line because $10 million from the Province is partly going into that category, and part of it, another significant amount of it, is going right across on the other page on the top, 4.1.05, under Silviculture.

MR. PENNEY: Yes.

DR. GIBBONS: You see a similar thing over there. We have a significant increase.

MR. PENNEY: Yes.

DR. GIBBONS: Alright. These are a couple of units where we are reflecting the $10 million provincial money now replacing the federal money in the forestry agreement.

MR. PENNEY: Okay, 6.1.05 - I think you have already answered this. Mr. Woodford asked you questions about it. I think he saw my list of questions there before he asked you about the moose and caribou counts. The Wildlife Monitoring last year was $638,000, this year we are looking at $1.2 million. You said that last year you did twelve areas - ten moose, two caribou and in 1995-1996 you expect to do ten to fifteen more. So, the number of areas that you will be doing the counts on should be basically the same last year and this year?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, about the same.

MR. PENNEY: Why would the budgeted figures have been doubled this year compared to last year?

DR. GIBBONS: Again, the money -

DR. NAZIR: The moose survey is in the next one.

DR. GIBBONS: The moose survey is in the next one, is it?

DR. NAZIR: Yes, 6.1.06.

DR. GIBBONS: 6.1.06, has the moose survey.

MR. PENNEY: Okay, 6.1.05, is ptarmigan and caribou and other species.

DR. GIBBONS: This is where we get leverage money that is coming out of various other organizations. We put in a little bit and we get money out of a number of other organizations. We have a list here two pages long of other types of wildlife organizations that we have involvements with; so that for a little bit of provincial money, we get money from Ducks Unlimited and various other organizations, nationally and internationally and provincially that get involved with us, and that's where you got all this revenue coming in. We have everything here: Migratory Birds, Trapper Education, Model Forests; federal money is shown under Model Forest, for example, Terra Nova National Park, NAWMP - I am not sure what that stands for, EHJV - Eastern Habitat Joint Venture. There are a number of stewardship agreements, I know I have to sign one in Stephenville Crossing next Monday night - a stewardship agreement for the water problem in that area. So we have a page-and-a-half of that type of activity, where we leverage money from other organizations, and it varies from year to year.

MR. PENNEY: Just one other question, and it pertains to the CN land. We have had an ongoing problem in a number of communities for some three or four years. Lewisporte would probably be on the top of the list of communities that have been in to, whichever department was looking after it at the time. I tell Ms. Wakeham, I can remember seeing delegates from Lewisporte on at least four occasions. It has been a major problem out there because we discovered two years ago that there were dozens and dozens of residential houses built on what they thought was their land, only to discover that they didn't own the land at all, three generations later, I am assuming from what I have been hearing lately that the problem has been rectified. Could you confirm that for me, that that is no longer a problem, that it has, for all intents and purposes, been put to bed.

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, I believe so, because we made a decision as a government, just a few months ago, that we were going to dedicate the main line, as a Linear Park, and a few days ago, the minister of Tourism announced that, as a Linear Park, but at the same time we made the decision that branch lines would now come back to Natural Resources, Crown Lands Division for management at Crown Lands. So again, we are looking at all the conflicts that are out there, we are doing all the documentation on it, but we will be managing the branch lines at Crown Lands.

I could ask Ms. Wakeham again to speak to the details of where that sits right now. I am familiar with the Lewisporte question, but we do have about 5,000 or more conflicts that have to be rectified in the next few months. So this is another example similar to the Kruger lands, where we have to address situations where people have built cabins, gardens, houses, roads, etcetera, on former railroad land.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Wakeham.

MS. WAKEHAM: I met with Mayor Betty Clarke, the deputy mayor, the town manager and one of the councillors on Monday. I was able to tell them then - because we have most of the land surveyed there, and we had the diagrams - that we are sending documentation to each of the individuals now who have been listed and are encroaching on the land and are providing them with the procedures to get title to those lands. In some cases where the construction, even though it was on CN land which has now come back to the Province, if in fact they constructed the houses before 1957, under normal policy within government at the moment, twenty-year possession under the new lands' act, they can receive a grant of land. For those houses constructed prior to that, what we will do is we will apply a pro rate to the portion of land that is outside. Because what has happened is that not all of the property is actually on the land that has come back. So we have portions of land that is - and it goes like in kinds of squiggle ways in terms of the diagrams. We are very familiar with each of the specific people who are affected by the lands.

MR. PENNEY: How many of them are there, do you remember?

MS. WAKEHAM: We counted forty-nine that are in Lewisporte. We also did a survey in Lewisporte on encroachments, illegal occupation, and a sample showed 123 illegal occupations as well. That is not necessarily all CN land, so we have to deal with that as well. Lewisporte is not the only place where that has occurred. We figure there are somewhere around 5,000 illegal encroachments on the CN properties at this moment that we have to deal with in some way.

We have all the letters drafted for everyone, and we are going through all the facilities and all the requests and everything that came in. We were not in a position until there was a public announcement made with respect to the linear park in order for us to be able to go out to the people who were on the branch lines, because that would have undermined the decision with respect to the linear park itself. We have all the preparatory work done. It is a matter now of moving it along and hopefully clearing it up within as quick a possible time as we can.

MR. PENNEY: Mayor Clarke and her delegation were pleased with the information you gave them when they were here on Monday? They were satisfied with that?

MS. WAKEHAM: Well, they told me it was the best meeting they've had in three years, so I guess they were pleased.

MR. PENNEY: Excellent.

DR. GIBBONS: New department.

MR. PENNEY: Mr. Minister, that was the best meeting they had had up until that time. They were here all the next day.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

Before we move on, I would just point out that there is coffee and tea available. We will not break for a coffee break unless this process proves to be a little more protracted than I think it will be. In the meantime, if anyone wishes to go back and avail of coffee or tea, then we would certainly like for them to do so.

Mr. Shelley.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I will start off with, I guess, my favourite section of this, and for obvious reason, that is, the mining sector. Of course, it is very interesting to my area. It is good to hear the minister talk about Voisey's Bay and it is good for the Province and it is good for everybody. It is something that I'm very interested in and I hope it does develop. With what we hear recently, I hope it does develop very soon. We need it, that's for sure. It is also a good boost for mining in the Province. In particular, now, I will talk about my district because it has a lot to do with mining.

I will start off by asking the question - first of all, we haven't mentioned a lot about the exploration yet. I will just get a little update from you on what you see in exploration this summer in the Province in general and, of course, I would like to know specifically, too, with the Baie Verte Peninsula, how much increase and whatever.

DR. GIBBONS: As I said in my introductory remarks, we had about $12.5 million spent last year. Before Voisey's Bay was announced really we were expecting maybe $15 million would be spent this year of which about $12 million or so would be spent on the Island. The Baie Verte - Springdale region has always gotten probably a third, at least, of the exploration dollars, because it is one of the most prospective regions on the Island. We think it is going to be still a very active area, especially with the work that is going on around the Rambler, Nugget Pond, and a lot of claims still held in that area.

So you are going to have a lot of activity and, of course, the development of Voisey's Bay, a drilling company out of Springdale, which I am sure must have some people from your region working with them, they have the contract for Voisey's Bay.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, that's right.

DR. GIBBONS: So there is probably, some spin-off into your area as well, from that.

MR. SHELLEY: Put this on record now so that I can say to you, too, that the mining conference which will be held in June - I have been asked and you will be asked again, of course - I have been asked (inaudible) every now and then for you and the Premier to be there at this particular conference. They will officially invite you because they will be presenting an award to those people from Voisey's Bay who made the discovery.

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, boy, I am aware of that, I have already received my invitation and I think the Baie Verte Mining Conference should be a great one again this year; I think there will be lots of excitement there.

MR. SHELLEY: I think so, too.

So that's on exploration, and I am pleased to hear that. Now, I will go to a couple of specific sites down there and then ask a couple more questions on it. But before I do that, just specifically, with the numbers here, 2.2.01 and 2.2.03, Mineral Resource Management- MDA11. In both of those, in the Grants and Subsidies, could you, very briefly, just - I mean those Grants and Subsidies, there is half-a-million under the financial project analysis and also Mineral Resource Management, could you be a little more specific on what those Grants are, to whom they go and for what?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes. Now the first one, the Mineral Resource Management-MDA11, that is reflecting this new mineral development agreement, the one-year extension we have with the feds, so we have money that is going into that; and over to the other one: Financial and Project Analysis on the top of page 139, a half-a-million dollars in Grants and Subsidies, so it is in these two subheads that we have the money that goes towards our Mineral Industry Assistance Program, our Prospectors Training Program, prospectors grants, this is where that money comes from. The other MDA money that was asked about earlier, is the geological survey type money. This is the industry-related, prospector-related money.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. Thanks very much.

You mentioned Nugget Pond earlier; it looks as if they will be up and running and hopefully that will be a little boost; I think we need a little catalyst in that area to get things going, and I think this group thing you have there is a good sound group of people.

They have also mentioned in a press release that Betts Cove and Tilt Cove are being looked at. Can you update me on how serious they were about that and what they planned on doing, if anything, this summer?

DR. GIBBONS: Well, what happened a few weeks ago, is that the people who have Nugget Pond made a deal with Bi-tech, bought the Bi-tech share of Nugget Pond but also they took the Bi-tech mineral rights in the Betts Cove, Tilt Cove area, the other mineral rights they had in that area, so I would expect that in 1995 they will do some exploration on that. I would expect some exploration there. I don't know if Paul has anything to add to that.

MR. DEAN: No, I think the minister has essentially summarized it; only to add that the company that is developing Nugget Pond was drilling at Nugget Pond up until about a week ago, and it has been a very active year for drilling on the Baie Verte Peninsula since Christmas, essentially, up until about a week ago when some of the projects were completed.

MR. SHELLEY: Now, we will move on a little further there. The Rambler update; I need an update on that. I haven't talked to them in the last couple of weeks but they still don't have their funding secured, as far as I know, as much as they want. I think the environment situation looks pretty good there, as far as I can understand, so what is the next step for them?

DR. GIBBONS: Well, I think, as you say, the environment should not be a problem; it is not a previously operated mine and we expect that they should be given environmental clearance in appropriate time if they don't have it already, and it is a matter of having their financing finalized. But that one looks like a real prospect for possible development in this year again.

MR. SHELLEY: You are feeling pretty positive about it.

DR. GIBBONS: I do feel quite positive about the prospects for the Rambler this year.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. Pine Cove, which was not mentioned a lot yet but I know they are just looking at financing and I know just last week alone they were - can you update me on that?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes. I am almost afraid to say anything about Pine Cove.

MR. SHELLEY: I know you are.

DR. GIBBONS: I never mentioned it deliberately. I don't know what to say, because last year at the Baie Verte Mining Conference, it seemed it was about to start and the year before that at the mining conference it was about to start; it is a great prospect, it has over two million tons in the ground, it is open pittable and it is purely a matter, in my mind, of the company getting its financial house in order and moving forward.

MR. SHELLEY: That is the bottom line on that.

DR. GIBBONS: It is the bottom line. It already had clearance from environment, so it is up to them.

MR. SHELLEY: The other question about using it, how much time do they have to do something about it before they -

DR. GIBBONS: Five years.

MR. SHELLEY: Five years?

DR. GIBBONS: Five years. If it is not done in five years, then the minister responsible for mines has the option to cancel the licence.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. Terra Nova - an update on that.

DR. GIBBONS: That is one that has been tenuous. It operated last year and I am hoping and expecting that it will operate again this year. I don't have any new information on it, but again, I could ask Mr. Dean if he has anything -

MR. SHELLEY: If you could, because I cannot hear anything on it and it is really (inaudible) to deal with that.

MR. DEAN: We have been in touch with the company, in fact, throughout the winter. The company's stated plan is that they have some product in inventory that needs to be sold to give them cash flow to start up, and that product has not yet been sold. There is about, I believe, 5,000 tons of asbestos fibre, of lower quality, that is in inventory, both in Baie Verte and in Halifax, and the company says, as soon as we sell that fibre and move it, that will give us the cash flow to start operations.

There is some restructuring of the company going on in both Australia and the United States, and in Canada, and that restructuring hopefully will be completed this spring also, but there is no firm date for start-up except that when that fibre is sold that will give them the cash flow to start recalling the workers, do the maintenance and start up.

MR. SHELLEY: Minister, when the waste disposal was rejected for the Baie Verte area there was still talk then, I know there was drilling done just before that on the potential for underground asbestos, because I understand there was potential there to go underground, and high class fibre there. Has there been any discussion on that?

DR. GIBBONS: There has been no interest shown to me at my level. I don't know what has been heard by Mr. Dean or others in the department, but we did two projects on that, including the drilling, so we are satisfied now that we know enough about what is there in the ground and it is a good prospect, and sometime somebody will probably say the price of asbestos is good enough to go underground and mine what is left there, but I don't see anything happening in the near term.

MR. SHELLEY: There has been no indication from anybody who is interested in that type of thing?

DR. GIBBONS: I am not aware of anything, and I honestly don't expect anything to happen in the near term, but I will ask Mr. Dean if he is more up to date on it than I am.

MR. DEAN: No, as the minister mentioned, we conducted a drilling program under the minerals agreement, and we did two separate economic evaluations of underground mining, and I think the conclusions on those were although the projections were for a positive rate of return on investment, they were not positive enough, if you like, not a high rate of return, and also it is difficult, perhaps more difficult than with other mining projects, to raise funding for asbestos projects.

I think we will just see what happens with Quebec's production over the coming years. There is some indication that their production may trail off, and that may translate into increased prices, and if so, then the potential for underground mining at Baie Verte perhaps will get a higher profile than it has today.

MR. SHELLEY: The potential is still there, anyway.

DR. GIBBONS: It's money in the ground.

MR. SHELLEY: The last question I will ask on the mining: C-Core did some work on the bay in Baie Verte about a year or two years ago - I cannot remember now; I think it was two years ago. They had some problem with the fishery there, the lobster fishermen there at the time. Is there any thought of continuing that? Because I know there was some great potential talked about there.

DR. GIBBONS: Well, there is certainly some gold in the placer offshore. You are right, when they wanted to go there and do a trial, they had some difficulty because of the conflict with lobster fishing in the area, and concern that it would interfere with the lobster fishery, because they wanted to do it during that season, and they moved over to Indian Island area, or Fogo Island area, or somewhere like that, and did their experiment, so there is no plan at this time, that I am aware of, to go back.

MR. SHELLEY: Those are all the questions I have about mining, but I will come back to forestry after that.

AN HON. MEMBER: Carry on; go ahead.

MR. SHELLEY: I will start with that but I am going to come back - okay, I will just skip the forestry questions. I just have a small part on wildlife and then I will come back to forestry.

You were talking about the moose population a little while ago. Did I hear right, when I was up getting a coffee, that in a month or so you will have the newest count on that?

DR. GIBBONS: We have the counts done for this past year, and our people who did the counts are now getting all their data compiled. Within the next few weeks they are expecting to make representations to us, to the executive, relative to any changes they would want in the license allocation that we are going to have for this year's moose and caribou draw.

MR. SHELLEY: Are there any indicators yet that the moose population could be down and could actually be in danger?

DR. GIBBONS: Well, as I said at the beginning, there are some indications upwards and some indications downwards but I will have to wait until I get all the details. I don't know what unbalance there is going to be until I get all the details before me, but I don't have any major concerns right now because I am seeing ups and downs. Maybe it will come out even, or maybe it will be slightly up or slightly down. I have to wait and see.

MR. SHELLEY: I am no expert in this. It is just a personal opinion, but I have some great fears about the moose population in this Province, especially in an area like mine that usually has a high moose population. I drive the roads early in the morning and evenings and I never see a moose anymore. This is the first time in years and years, so I have been wondering about it.

DR. GIBBONS: There is no question that in some parts of the Province the population is down a bit and in other parts it is up a bit. We are doing the count now so that we will know exactly what the situation is, and once the details come to us then we will have a much better feel for it in general, because the areas that were done this year were geographically disbursed from the top of the Northern Peninsula to St. John's, in the ten, so we picked one here, one there, and so on, so we could get a feel for the whole Province. Once these numbers are in we will have a feel for it.

MR. SHELLEY: I hope that is a good indicator, and these are pretty legitimate studies, I guess?

DR. GIBBONS: This was a great year for the count because we had a lot of snow and with the low-level flying they do it was very easy to see them, and a great year for counting big game.

MR. SHELLEY: That's good, because I just used the road there as an indicator, but sometimes I fear that sometimes we might have a miscount over the years.

DR. GIBBONS: Well, we did not really do many counts over the years. We did one area, or two or three, but we never really did many counts and there was a lot of uncertainty. It was all on trend data, etc., but we finally have some good data this year.

MR. SHELLEY: That is good. I am glad to hear that.

The last question I want to ask before I turn it over concerns the outfitter's license. I remember asking another minister this about a year or so ago. When you look at the outfitter's licenses and how they are disbursed over the Province I still have a problem with our area. We have the full Baie Verte Peninsula and there is not one outfitter's license on it. There are so many people wanting them but it has never been allowed because of the way they are allotted out. I also asked another minister for a review of how they were disbursed, the user/lose policy, you use the license or you lose it. I think it should be looked into again, how these are spread out over the Province, and that it is done fair and evenly across the Province. Do you have any comments on that?

DR. GIBBONS: We had a meeting with the Outfitter's Association just a couple of days ago, myself and Minister Grimes who is the minister responsible for outfitters. I am sort of the minister responsible for animals and he is the minister responsible for people. We had a meeting with the Outfitter's Association and they talked to us about outfitters in general, how they are distributed and how many licenses they would like to have, and what they see as the potential for the future. I think, for the most part, they see some possibilities, some areas where there are no outfitters where it might be possible to have an outfitter started. That is how they saw it from the industry perspective and it might be reflecting what you are saying, it may be an area where there is nobody. There are some other areas, though, where they are crowding each other.

MR. SHELLEY: That is the whole point I am making. I know the situation - on the Northern Peninsula down to where we are there is nothing.

DR. GIBBONS: Those who are outfitters and are successful - and they are all being successful. The success rate is 80 per cent, plus, and none of them are saying we want to get out of the business to allow someone else to come in. The only question is whether or not there is enough of a population to allow someone else to come in, so the only question is whether or not there is enough of a population to allow someone else to come in in another specific geographic area.

MR. SHELLEY: That is my whole point, the disbursement of licences around the Province. I think that should be looked at very carefully.

DR. GIBBONS: After we get our moose counts done, our caribou counts as well, we may be able to look at it in an area-by-area basis a little more than we've done in the past.

MR. SHELLEY: I think that would solve a lot of problems.

DR. GIBBONS: We may be able to.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Shelley, thank you, Minister.

Mr. Whelan.

MR. WHELAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, you mentioned earlier about the offshore Terra Nova oilfield and you said negotiations are ongoing. Could you sort of bring us up to speed on the negotiations, and I was wondering - probably mention in particular whether there is any decision yet with regard to the type or mode of production platform?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes. Well, a few months ago - I can't remember the exact timing - we made a decision as a government that we were going to get serious about Terra Nova and we put an officials' committee in place, chaired by Mr. Stanley, my Deputy Minister, but with other deputy ministers of the related departments. Mr. Stanley's committee has sub-committees working on financial aspects, benefits aspects, other aspects, regulatory, of Terra Nova. They have been having meetings since last Fall, up to and including this week, continuing to discuss Terra Nova and the progress on it. We are all hoping that sometime this year we will get a decision on the submission of a development plan.

It is clear from the companies that in their mind it has to be a floating mode of production. This is not going to be a gravity base like Hibernia. The field is not big enough to economically carry a gravity base. There are a number of different types of floating options and the consortium led by Petro Canada is evaluating the various types of floating options. They have not made a decision on the type and that will probably one of the last things they do decide. The decision we would like to get from them now, though, is the decision to move it forward, because we would like to see Terra Nova come very shortly after Hibernia so that we don't have a break in the momentum. Let's get our industry developed. That is our interest.

MR. WHELAN: Administration - 5.1.01. There has been some increase there, from $218,500 to $367,200. I notice Supplies, $135,000, up from $124,000; Purchased Services, up to $86,000 from $20,400. Could you elaborate on that somewhat?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, what is covered there, as I understand it, is the cost that we have for maps and for surveying. We are reflecting some extra costs there. Ms. Wakeham could probably get into more specifics on it but that is what is covered in these numbers. These two particular numbers that you are mentioning are for maps and surveying. We buy Crown land maps, for example, from the federal service and we sell them, and that is the cost of getting the maps but also (inaudible). I will ask Ms. Wakeham to probably speak to it more specifically.

MS. WAKEHAM: The increase - if you look down at the bottom you will see there is $125,000 in provincial revenue associated, and that is associated with the $135,000. Basically it is a supply-demand. Dependent on what the demand is, we go out and purchase more maps at the NTS, from the Federal Government, and then we re-supply those. We are the only agency that keeps sort of a whole supply of the national topographic maps and these are purchased basically by the general public and by a lot of professionals who are out in the field who require maps. Basically you have an offset. Really, it just fluctuates from year to year, dependent on what the demand is out there. So that is the increase there.

The $86,000 on Purchased Services: We previously were putting some of the survey and technical services that we were doing under Professional Services, and we had to re-categorize those because it was the wrong category. Basically that $86,000 is a combination of what we had on Purchased Services, which would be our normal Purchased Services in terms of supplies, plus some of the surveying and technical services that we are now contracting - that is the increase there. It is just a re-categorization - instead of having 04, 05 and 06, we have combined 05 and 06 into one.

MR. WHELAN: A few minutes ago, Mr. Penney was talking about some people who had problems with their land after CN turned over the land they had in this Province, to the Province, the Provincial Government. They found that the land they were on wasn't theirs. They were referred to as `illegals'. I have heard that term mentioned a number of times. How long have they - have they always been there illegally, and if not, how long have they been illegal? Because this term `illegal' sort of has connotations of a criminal intent and criminal action.

I know, back in the 1400s and 1500s there were a number of people who came over here and for some reason had to go into the backwoods and had to build shanties and I suppose, they were considered `illegals', but in a sense, it is our heritage and our tradition and for some reason, it strikes a note of disharmony with me, when we refer to our people who, probably have been living in an area for seventy years or 100 years, people who, at the time did what was the norm for the day, they picked a piece of ground and they built a house on it and homesteaded it and did whatever they had to do, raised families, generation after generation and today, for some reason, we look on them as `illegals' and I was wondering: why now, are we looking at them as `illegals', and how long have they been illegal? Have we been criminals for generations? I would like to get this thing straightened out.

DR. GIBBONS: I know we use the term `illegal' because they are illegally occupying land without having legal title to the land, but I don't think anyone is saying they are criminals. I think all of us probably have relatives and friends, if we don't do it ourselves -

MR. WHELAN: No, but it has connotations.

DR. GIBBONS: - who built a shack on a piece of Crown lands and afterwards applied. And that is one of the battles we have in the Crown Lands division, that even today, a lot of people do not, adequately follow the procedures of coming in and applying first for a piece of Crown land and get approval for it before they start construction. We have regulations in place to address that, but we probably have almost as many people who are in that category, if not more, as in the categories that we talked about when we discussed the railroad lands and the Kruger lands, quite a lot of people we are dealing with on a daily basis but they are not criminals. It is just that we wish they would get legal title.

MR. WHELAN: I didn't say they were criminals; but I said the term `illegal' has connotations of some sort of a criminal act or that they are living outside the law; even if we just change the term `illegals' to something a little bit more acceptable, I suppose, but it sort of grates.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WHELAN: Yes, probably just call a spade a spade maybe, yes.

AN HON. MEMBER: Call them squatters.

MR. WHELAN: Squatters, well, squatters have rights in some areas.

DR. GIBBONS: But it is pretty tough. I know I have only been the minister for Crown lands for a few months but it is pretty tough to keep people from going out and building their cabins without having first gotten the title to the land, to a Crown land lease. We are struggling with it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

DR. GIBBONS: Oh, yes, and some who do get legal title, then they go and build somewhere else. I don't know if they get lost or something when they go in with their wood.

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible).

DR. GIBBONS: Exactly, and the Vice-Chair and I are both familiar with that exact case.

MR. WHELAN: But there are people as well who have lived on property for generation after generation and are termed as illegals. I understand that people today, where there is a law in effect and if you go in and you spot a piece of ground, the procedure is to go to Crown Lands and stake your claim and get permission, pay your fee and build your cabin, but it has not always been the case, it was the accepted practice years and years ago that you go in and find a piece of ground and that is where you could stake your claim and you could live on that and you could work it and you could raise your family. And these people are subject to the same stigma and the same penalties, I suppose, as people who go in today and actually break the law by doing just that type of thing.

It is basically, I suppose, just a point that I was trying to make. As I said before, there is something about it that just grates on me every time I hear it, because that is where our heritage has been, that is how we came to be here. If we didn't do that we would be still speaking with an English accent or a Scottish or Irish accent.

AN HON. MEMBER: Some of us are.

DR. GIBBONS: Across the ocean some of us are. When did these people become illegal? I mean, people who have been living on a piece of ground for generation after generation.

I think this government and the former government tried to address that problem. I know, a few years ago, the former government gave an amnesty period and said: If you are on a piece of Crown land, you are on a piece of land, and you don't have a grant or a lease for it, come in and declare yourselves and we will give you an amnesty and we will give you legal title and process it. A lot of people came forward at that time who had been on land for a long time under the traditional way of doing it. Now, we are trying to identify every individual who is not on a piece of land that has legal title and, as I said, it is a regular continuous problem.

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible).

DR. GIBBONS: No, it is continuous. I can ask Ms. Wakeham to speak to it because she is into it daily, continuously.

MS. WAKEHAM: The term is not a term that has been developed by me or one that is used.

WITNESS: No, I didn't say it was.

MS. WAKEHAM: Basically, it is part of the property law which states that you either hold title that has been duly granted or leased by the Crown in "a legal fashion," or you don't. If you don't have legal title then you are illegally occupying Crown land. I could say that you are occupying without legal title but that is the only other way that I can possibly state the status of the people who are on the land.

We have over 85,000 files on transactions in this Province, and that is grants, leases, licences, easements. We probably have - and this is an estimation - another 25,000 people out there who do not have legal title. The lawyers come to us to search the deeds to find out whether or not there are transactions. Unfortunately, most people believe that if their father gave them a piece of land in a will, that that will in fact has legal title, when in fact unless that will can be tied to an actual grant or lease there is no legal title. That is a piece of paper that is registered in the Registry of Deeds that has no validity in law. This is one of the difficulties. People do not understand. They say: My father, my grandfather, my great-grandfather gave me this piece of land, but unfortunately the father, grandfather, or great-grandfather never obtained legal title to the land to begin with.

Under the legislation, the lands' act which is - in 1992 we amalgamated some seven or eight different acts into one act called the lands act. Government originally, back in 1976, said: If you could prove that you were on the land for sixty years then you would have adverse possession and could be granted, or the Crown would have extinguished its rights. When the new act came in, the term was changed to a twenty-year continuous term.

This has been disputed in the courts. We are in the courts maybe 200 cases a year, because we have another mechanism for people to use if, in fact, they believe that they have possessed the land; it is called `quieting of titles', and they can go to court and the Crown would then have to prove that it is Crown land, and they would have to prove that it is their land, and the documentation would have to be brought forward. Then the court decides and will provide you with a title based on the evidence as presented. The term, unfortunately, is not intended to provide - it is not meant to be seen as negative. It is just a matter of a legal term more than anything else.

MR. WHELAN: Maybe we should be doing another title search.

With regard to resource roads, road construction, are there any plans for resource roads in the Central Avalon area, Mr. Minister?

DR. GIBBONS: I don't know which ones. I have a list here now, and I don't know where they are because all I have is the name of a road. I have a list of roads and I would assume they are distributed across the Province. If I go down to $2 million, approximately $2 million was on that budget subhead that we looked at earlier, we have about twenty-five different roads in various parts of the Province, and it is going to total up to about sixty or seventy kilometres for us in these various areas. Dr. Nazir might be able to speak to it.

DR. NAZIR: Yes, there are a couple of roads planned. There is a Mr. Fowler, a sawmiller with his (inaudible) of wood, and he is supposed to operate as one (inaudible) and there is another of the operators. But with respect to those roads, we have had some public meetings and there are others ongoing. There is no decision whether they will proceed or not. Last year we had to postpone the construction of one of them because there was a group of people involved in tentative planning of the resources exercise, and since the exercise was not completed they postponed the construction last year. This year the minister has not made any decision yet. In fact the list the minister has is a tentative list, and some of the lengths of the roads will change depending on our ability to deliver them during the year, and he will also decide whether those two roads will go ahead or not.

MR. WHELAN: Thank you. It is the first time I have seen the list, actually.

DR. NAZIR: It is a very preliminary list.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Whelan. Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: I will let it go to Paul.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So you are finished?

MR. WOODFORD: Not necessarily.

MR. SHELLEY: Is that list of roads the final list now for this Spring, or is it tentative?

DR. GIBBONS: I think it is the first time I have seen it. It just got put in front me here when the question came up earlier, so I guess it is a tentative list and it will come forward for decision-making, but I know it is there by priority basis.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. With forestry, first of all, 4.2.01.05.

DR. GIBBONS: 4.2.01.05.

MR. SHELLEY: I assume that is for the spraying.

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, that is the money that is put in for the spray program.

MR. SHELLEY: So basically $2.5 million from last year will suffice for the spraying for this year.

DR. GIBBONS: Well, the amount that is in that program for Insect Control, it looks like $3.1 million total there on the `amount to be voted' line; and Professional Services, I guess that would cover all of the contracts for aircraft and other types of contractual services that would be associated with it.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay, Minister, these are the last few questions I will have and they are going to pertain to forestry. I have a hard time actually getting down to being specific, because I think if we did that then I think I could be into this discussion for a couple of hours because I am very concerned about forestry. I have said it for quite a while now. As I said, if we had to go through it specifically, one by one, I guess we could be here for a long time.

I am very disappointed with the federal agreement being finished as of March 1997. Is that right, March 1997?

DR. GIBBONS: The federal agreement just ended last week.

MR. SHELLEY: No, I am sorry. The federal agreement ending: The CFS Centre will be finished as of March 1997.

DR. GIBBONS: The Canadian Forestry Service, yes, the phase-down.

MR. SHELLEY: First of all, back to the forestry agreement itself. I am very disappointed in it, I am sure you are as minister, too, and this whole Province should be, in fact, we should be outraged with it. As a matter of fact, I have documents in my files now, letters that I wrote to the previous Prime Minister discussing the outrage. Because this Province just saw what happened in the fishery; and under the Terms of Union, of course, when we joined Confederation, we would be able to depend on the Federal Government to help us with a renewable resource such as forestry, and I really think they owe us more than that. I don't care what the Administration's political stripe is up there. I really have some very serious concerns with the renewable resource of forestry in this Province.

I suppose, more specifically right now, in March 1997 we will see the CFS Centre practically closed down here - I think the minister has already confirmed that there will be seventeen workers left. The numbers are really not that important, the whole principle of this is that that centre provides some very good services to this Province. I don't have to go into that, the minister knows, and I am sure his officials here know that. Especially, as it pertains to silviculture, I don't see somebody in New Brunswick monitoring anything in silviculture or having anything to do with forestry in this Province and telling us what we can do here. I just will never buy that from anyone. If it is my party in there or any other, it just doesn't matter, it goes far beyond political stripe.

It is the renewable resources left that I still get fears about right now. If we could go into the specifics, the bottom line is that all the negatives, the taking away of trees, whether by cutting - commercial, private, trees dying, over-maturing, forest fires, insects, and everything else, the number of trees that are being taken away each day compared to the number that are growing in this Province is a concern. I think we can all agree with that. This particular centre and what it does for this Province is vital, I think, and its closure would be a real nail in the coffin for forestry.

I want to ask the minister here - I asked a few questions in the House and I plan on asking more. You said you were having discussions with the federal people. How do you feel? Is there a chance that can be reversed? How strong a stand is this government and all of us as a Province going to take to renew that, and have them reconsider that particular centre?

DR. GIBBONS: Well, as I said in response to questions in the House, I am continuing to have discussion with the federal minister on it. I do not know if there will be any change. There are certain parts of the forestry sector that have been covered by this particular service, particularly insect control, insect research. We do surveys every year and research on types of spray and insecticides, etc. They have done great work for us and I hope they will continue to do a lot of great work for us. We had to be there to do our part as well.

Forestry is a provincial responsibility constitutionally and we are going to ensure that our forests are properly managed. We are showing that again with our Budget decisions this year and when we look at the Department of Natural Resources in total we are putting $22 million into forestry, almost half of our Budget for this particular department. We, ourselves are not going to be slack, we are going to ensure that the resource is properly managed. I express my own disappointment with how far back the federal forestry centre has been projected to be cut, and I am continuing to discuss it with the minister.

MR. SHELLEY: Well, Mr. Minister, I am glad to hear you say that and I am sure you say it in all sincerity, but as for the budget this year, I am glad, too, that the Province has seen fit to put more into it, and to be blunt about it, it is the least we could have done. The truth is, that is fine for this year, but when we had a national-provincial agreement, we had assured money there for a period of time. But what is going to happen next year, Minister, that is the question, and I think it is a fair question.

We know how restraint goes, the balanced budgets, and everything else - what is going to happen next year? How short are we? I will answer the question and say we are not very short at all and next year the Provincial Government can again put that money back in the Budget. I think the solution is, or at least what we have to lean towards for a solution, is back to the Federal Government again. I know it is a provincial responsibility, yes, but the Federal Government also has a responsibility to this Province and I think the answer lies back with the Federal Government.

As the forestry critic, and somebody who is very concerned about it, and I know you are, too, I am going to try every avenue possible. I am discussing some of those now with some groups and I am hoping to even get the support of you yourself as the minister and anybody else in this Province who will help and lobby, and not to just let the Federal Government know very calmly how we feel, but to show outrage and tell them that this Province will not stand for it in any shape or form. Another reasonable force is to go the same way the fishery did.

Although I think you have said as much as you can say at this point, I am, as the forestry critic, just letting you know that I have talked to a lot of people during the last two weeks since I brought this up, including groups who have called me and want to meet. I will talk with any of them and we are going to find ways to fight this, and fight it now. I really think we are going to look at the eleventh hour again in forestry as we did with the fishery. I think we are on the brink of that right now. If there is one time in our history that we do not need to go back on such a thing as the CFS Centre here and anything to do with silviculture it is right now.

It is not for you as the minister, or somebody else to stand up in this Province two, three, or four years from now - and I do not think I am too far out on a limb in saying it, that we might have a call for a moratorium in this Province if we are not careful. I do not think it is too far out to say it at all. My message here tonight, and one of the reasons I wanted to get here, was to say that I do have a fear for forestry in this Province.

Yes, I think there are good things being done provincially, as much as we can, and yes, I'm glad that that the Provincial Government added money to the budget this year to offset this end to the agreement. But no, we are certainly not safe and comfortable in the forest industry in the Province. I will certainly do everything I can to make sure that the Federal Government, whichever party is in power, realizes that we need the support of the Federal Government. That is all I wanted to say, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Shelley. I don't know if you want to respond, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Andersen III.

MR. WILLIAM ANDERSEN III: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have three or four questions here, Minister. The first one is with respect to new staked claims in Northern Labrador, in the Torngat Mountains district. I understood yesterday - I cannot remember with whom I was speaking - but where I have my cabin up in Okak Bay area apparently it has all been staked as well. The question I have with respect to the staking of claims - the new staked claims, is: Have the stakers been advised of an outstanding aboriginal claim still to be settled?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes.

MR. WILLIAM ANDERSEN III: The same as the prior ones. That is the first question. The second question is with respect to Crown lands, since Mr. Whelan brought it up. I know that the Church and the Labrador Inuit Association have been negotiating what is called the Moravian Church land grants. I have also heard through the grapevine, if you will, that the Province is interested in those Moravian Church land grants becoming Crown lands.

Without siding with anyone, first of all I have a problem with the principle under which the church land grants were granted to the Moravian Church, anyway. Because if you read the church archives, the grants were given to the Church to christianize the Eskimos like myself, and if they didn't christianize on those lands, then they were banned from those certain areas. Has there been any movement with respect to that process between the government, the LIA and the Moravian Church?

DR. GIBBONS: I will take your first question first. For anyone who stakes mineral claims in Labrador through the map staking process, they are informed that we have outstanding native claims in the area and that any staking is subject to a final resolution. I'm not sure of the exact words we have on that particular notice that we give them. Paul Dean could probably speak more specifically to that. We do inform everybody who is doing any mineral staking in Labrador about the outstanding land claims negotiations that are ongoing.

Relative to people who might have staked around your cabin, there is a requirement of anyone who stakes around any private land obviously that he is going to have to deal with the private landowner before they can go in and trespass. Because you have the surface rights if you have the private land, and they have the mineral rights, for now, for the sake of mineral exploration. Depending on where your cabin may be, or others may have cabins, we have made exempt mineral lands in seven different areas, around seven areas that either are today occupied by LIA members - like around Nain, Hopedale, Makkovik, Okak - and some that did have people living there. So there are seven areas that are off limits now to any further staking.

There might have been some staking in the first round after Voisey's Bay was announced, but now, no one can stake - it has been frozen and it will continue to be frozen until July 1 1996, I believe it is, Paul? Again, they are all informed when they stake outside of these frozen areas that there are ongoing negotiations for land claims.

As for the Moravian land grants, there have been some discussions relative to that. I think we are trying to bring it to some type of resolution. I know that Ms. Wakeham has been involved in the details on that with representatives of the Moravian Church. I don't have the details so I would rather ask her to speak to that particular aspect.

MS. WAKEHAM: I think the first thing that has to be clarified is that we are talking about Moravian interests as opposed to Moravian land grants. In fact, the 1776, 1779, 1824 documents that were filed with the Church by the British government, the Orders in Council, are in fact, only a permission to occupy, as opposed to a granting of the land. There was no title that was actually given to the Church.

We were directed by Cabinet last year to have discussions with the Moravian Church. A letter was written to the representative, Mr. Edmunds, and we had our first meeting on May 11 of last year. Subsequent to that, we required the Moravian Church to come back to us and provide us with a resolution as to who were going to be their negotiators. We did not receive confirmation of that until October 24 of last year. There have been numerous overtures made to try to get meetings. Meetings have been set up on five occasions now and have been cancelled by the principals. Mr. Andersen, last year - I think it was Sam Andersen, last year, who was president of the LIA - and Mr. Barbour, this year, have both written requesting input into those discussions. We have responded, and the Premier has responded, to those.

At the moment, we are treating this as a separate issue, as a separate set of negotiations outside the overall native land claims negotiations. The position of the government is that - and I know this has been an ongoing situation. The documentation that I have read goes back at least seventy years. They have, on nineteen occasions, tried to resolve this issue and it has never been resolved. I think somewhere around 1974 they came close to having some real discussions. The situation right now is that Barrie Heywood of Heywood Kennedy Belbin has been named as the solicitor for the Church - I understand Mr. Heywood has some Moravian connections - and representative, Walter Edmunds is from the Church itself. We do have a resolution that has been signed by the Church nominating these two people for the discussions.

I have been trying - I made nineteen phone calls and set up three sets of meetings between January of this year and March 20 and all of them were cancelled. I am going to continue to try to bring that to some form of a resolution this year.

MR. WILLIAM ANDERSEN III: I wish you well, because I had the same experience with Walter Edmunds and Mr. Heywood. In fact, Mr. Heywood has been a legal counsel to the Church since the early- to mid-1980s. Anyway, that was the briefing I wanted on the Church.

My greater interest is the George River caribou herd. Some years back I was involved in trying to help push the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and the Government of Quebec into creating a joint management board for the George River caribou herd. I raise this issue because I know that the two governments were always at odds as to what the total allowable harvest from the herd could ever be. When I was with the Wildlife division back in the late 1970s and early 1980s, at that time Newfoundland was saying the total allowable harvest would be somewhere around 30,000 animals and Quebec was saying 50,000 per annum. Right now I believe it is between 40,000 and 50,000 animals per year.

I have developed a great concern because since December, the George River caribou herd, the bulk of the herd has been spread out from Makkovik - I am going by district - up as far north as Hebron which is about a 600-kilometre stretch of area, and in four different instances, Makkovik, Hopedale, Davis Inlet and Nain, hunters have said they have seen caribou heading out towards the ocean on floes, not in large numbers, I mean, you see herds of 100 or 200 heading out that way, it is not a large number of animals, but how many of those little herds have gone out and perhaps not come back?

In the dead of winter when the Arctic floe is pretty much stuck together because of calm conditions, they could head well in excess of 100 miles offshore and if a storm came up, there is no chance for those caribou. And how many might we have lost in that manner? And I think that bears thinking about, the possibility of this government, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and the Government of Quebec perhaps, looking at a joint survey again of the herd once it is back together.

I know it is difficult to do a survey on a large herd like that because they are so spread out, and this only happened in the last couple of years. I was involved in a couple of surveys and you know, you could count the 500,000 animals in the span of 120 miles, but right now, you are looking at 300 miles and God only knows how wide. So, is there any possibility of looking at another survey of that herd just to ensure that, you know, if we are going to have a total allowable harvest in another year of 45,000 to 50,000 animals, are we overtaking or are we not?

DR. GIBBONS: I am not aware myself of any plan to have a new count. I don't know if Dr. Nazir is aware of any plan to have a new count in the near term.

DR. NAZIR: Since the herd, as you have rightly pointed out is migrating, it moves in both provinces and various territories, and it is very difficult to do a survey unless you have some kind of a co-operative approach, as you have rightly pointed out, but in terms of co-management or joint management, there have been some problems with Quebec in the past. The herd has increased since you looked at it the last time around from 500,000 to, people say now, around 700,000 animals and currently, I think it is around 40,000 being harvested in both provinces, thirty-eight or so; so there is room for more harvest if it is 700,000 plus or minus according various estimation.

There is a lot of interest and some scientists have studied and we have done some work but not a comprehensive survey which would count all of the herd at the same time. The thinking there, is that maybe the herd has started growing for the last two or three years, and one of the reasons it is spreading out in areas it never was, is looking for new ranges, new places to eat and shelter, and that is probably a reflection that the herd is too big and is getting into areas it never went. So, how to stabilize so that the range is not deteriorated, it has future feed for itself on the range, those are the types of issue which we have started looking at very intensively and, of course, the harvesting practices themselves which Mr. Whelan will be looking at, as the minister mentioned, the discussion paper. Some of these issues which you have raised, the size of the population and hunt, will also be brought up when Mr. Whelan goes up there to get some input from other people and certainly we will by intensifying our efforts.

DR. GIBBONS: The mention of the joint management board we talked about - I know that when the ruling on low-level flying came down, one of the recommendations there as well was that a joint management board be put in place between the two provinces and various other people who have interests. We have not taken any action on that, but I guess that is one of the things we will have to take a look at now in months ahead.

MR. ANDERSEN III: If I may, one more concern with the George River caribou herd. You are well aware, I would just like, for the record, to suggest that government might look at greater enforcement, if you will, on the management of the herd. Last year, in Labrador City, when I attended the conference on managing the George River caribou herd, one of the operators up there indicated to me that IOC had shipped out from Labrador City to Quebec approximately 130,000 pounds of meat which, in our view, was illegally taken. Now, 130,000 pounds of meat would probably translate into about 2,000 caribou.

So, if that is happening, I think greater emphasis should be placed on enforcement personnel in the area. I know, even in my own district, Aboriginal people mostly, the Inuit are abusing the herd. I took my little fellow with me in January to go and get a caribou, and we were only gone twenty-five minutes from the time we left Nain until we got back home with our caribou, but during that span we came across two caribou that had been shot and left. How much more of that is happening? And for all of the Torngat Mountain district we have one wildlife officer; protection officer. I think it certainly bears looking into to see if there could be more done.

DR. GIBBONS: There is no question about it, in the last few months the enforcement question has been brought home to us, strongly, and that's why we have initiated this review of all aspects of the George River herd and how we management it. You mentioned the thing about IOC. This is the first I have heard of that, but that certainly does not sound right to me, clearly. Over the next few months, I am hoping that we can make some decisions that will help with enforcement in the future.

MR. ANDERSEN III: I think that is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Andersen. Thank you, Mr. Minister.

MR. SMITH: Are there no more questions? We ask the Clerk to call the heads and with the agreement of the Committee, I would suggest that we call heads 1.1.01 through 6.1.08 inclusive.

On motion, heads 1.1.01 through 6.1.08, inclusive, carried?

On motion, Department of Natural Resources, total head carried without amendment.

Before we adjourn this meeting, there is just one other item of business. You had Minutes of two previous meetings, April 3 and April 5, and I would entertain a motion to have these adopted.

On motion, Minutes adopted as circulated.

I would like to thank the minister and his staff for their co-operation, I would also like to thank the members of the Committee and our support staff here this evening, Elizabeth Murphy our Clerk, Paul Kelleher, the Page here this evening, and Colin Chapman, looking after the recording.

With that, I will now ask for a motion of adjournment.

On motion, Committee adjourned.