Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Anthony Sparrow, M.H.A., Placentia & St. Mary's, substitutes for Bob Mercer, M.H.A., Humber East; and Bill Ramsay, MHA for Burgeo & LaPoile, substitutes for Perry Canning, M.H.A. Labrador West.

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m.

CHAIR (Mr. R. Woodford): Order, please!

Have members had a chance to look at the Minutes from the other day? Would someone move that the Minutes of the last Resource Committee meeting on the Department of Mines and Energy, be adopted, please.

On motion, Minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: First of all, we would like to have the members introduce themselves. I will start with Anna.

MS THISTLE: Anna Thistle, MHA for Grand Falls - Buchans.

MR. SPARROW: Anthony Sparrow, MHA for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. RAMSAY: Bill Ramsay, MHA for Burgeo & LaPoile.

MR. SHELLEY: Paul Shelly, MHA for Baie Verte.

MR. OSBORNE: Tom Osborne, MHA for St. John's South.

CHAIR: I am Rick Woodford, MHA for Humber Valley. I will now ask the minister to introduce her staff as well.

MS KELLY: Okay. Mike Buist is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Tourism and Recreation; my Deputy Minister, Robert Thompson; and to my far right, Elizabeth Batstone, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Culture and Heritage. Next to me is Rick Hayward, the Director of Financial and General Operations.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

We will get right into the Estimates. Who is going to start? Paul will start it off.

MS KELLY: Would you like us to do an overview first?

CHAIR: Oh yes, I am sorry. Do you have a prepared statement?

MS KELLY: I had prepared just a couple of notes as an overview, yes. It will only take a minute or two.

CHAIR: Okay.

MS KELLY: I should start off by saying thank you for the opportunity to present to the Committee the Estimates of the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation for the 1997-1998 fiscal year.

The department reduced its budget this year by $2.3 million, representing approximately 10 per cent expenditures in our area. The biggest reduction, of course, was in the provincial parks area, as all members here this evening, I am sure, are aware, and it will, I am sure, come up for discussion during the course of this evening.

In addition to the parks reductions, we also made reductions in the recreation division, and in the area of general tourism counselling, and finally, by reducing government's administrative structure. There are some minor user fees that I am sure we will discuss as we go on through the evening, but not of any great amount.

On a more positive note, the department retained funding levels in the Culture and Heritage area, and the Tourism Marketing program. Cabot celebrations will receive their final budget allocation this year. We are less than sixty days away from the Matthew arrival and only a few days away from its departure. Of course, the Matthew is the centrepiece of our year of celebration of 500 years.

ERA funding of $9 million has also allowed some very significant projects to proceed that will no doubt serve the Province's tourism industry well into the future, and we can discuss those in further detail, if you wish, later.

With the above as the highlights of the budget for the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, I welcome any questions you may have, and would conclude my remarks by encouraging all Members of the House to get involved and to enjoy the Cabot celebrations. We hope, and we feel very strongly, that this will be our best tourism year ever, and one to truly build on. Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Now Paul, you can start with the questions. We will go with fifteen-fifteen, if you so desire.

MR. SHELLEY: I have a few opening comments, then I am going to jump around a little bit in the Estimates just for some specifics maybe, I guess. But I will make a couple of comments first.

First of all, I guess like everybody else, we are all looking forward to a really good summer with the Come Home Year celebrations and Cabot 500 - especially, Minister, I would say the Come Home Years of the communities around the Province. First of all, do you have a number on how many are actually having...?

MS KELLY: A little over seventy.

MR. SHELLEY: Seventy.

MS KELLY: Yes. Some are fairly major. Gambo is, I think, expecting 5,000 people. Green's Pond is also celebrating its 300th Anniversary this year, so theirs will be quite significant, too.

Okay.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. That is interesting because there are eight in my district alone. So that is a pretty good number.

MS KELLY: Pardon me?

MR. SHELLEY: There are eight in my district alone so that is quite a number for a - and I am very lucky that the opening celebrations are on different days so I can make every one of them. That is quite a lot for just one district, then, if there are seventy for the entire Province. But anyway, there is a lot of working going on with these, of course. Just one little thought of mine - I have not really discussed it a lot, except with a couple of people - the Matthew leaves soon, of course, and is supposed to arrive on June 24th, right? Is there any concern - with the type of vessel it is and, of course, weather conditions on the Atlantic - that it might not arrive on time? Was there enough time given to get here? Have there been any concerns raised about that?

MS KELLY: No, I think there is very adequate time for its arrival but I think we also have to remember, this is the adventure of a lifetime. This is a wooden boat that is seventy-five to eighty-five - I can't remember which now - feet long -

AN HON. MEMBER: About seventy.

MS KELLY: - seventy feet long and when we all see it for the first time I think we will marvel that these brave souls took on this adventure - because it really is an adventure. We hope they have good weather on the way over but, of course, the responsibility for the boat rests in Bristol. We lease the boat as of its arrival on June 24, I think a few days before. Our hope is that the boat will get here a few days before the celebrations. Three of the crew will remain with the boat. After that, of course, we will be staffing it with Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. You may know that we have a big application process in place right now that people can apply under three categories -

MR. SHELLEY: Quite the response, I hear.

MS KELLY: Yes, just a couple of days after we made the announcement we had 800 phone calls asking for applications. I have not received a count since then and I think the application process closed on April 24. So we will soon be deciding now how to have a big public draw for it because it will be done under a draw system. It will be divided into three categories; novice, intermediate and expert.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes. I raised that because actually there was somebody who studied the people across the Atlantic and these different things. They talked about the number of days; and this is a person who is on the ocean quite a bit himself and mentioned that to me. I said, I assume that is plenty of time to get here because it would be a disaster, I guess, if it did not make it on time for the 24th.

MS KELLY: Well, the Marine Advisory Committee, of course, and the Coast Guard people like Lauren Humphries, have all been involved with this - Sid Hynes, Tom Harris, people who have great experience with all of this. Then, besides that, of course, the people in Bristol have been for years and years planning this and they feel that they have left, if I remember correctly, an extra seven to ten days leeway there. So they may be here early enough that they will be hiding away in some little cove somewhere for a little while.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. So I will just go through a few specifics in the headings here, that is all. The first one, 2.1.01 number 10 or line 10, Grants and Subsidies under Tourism, Marketing and Development - Grants and Subsidies are over-budgeted by $197,000 if I have it calculated right. Could you give me some reason for that?

MS KELLY: Rick, maybe you could give us the background or I could go back, I suppose, to all of the background information here.

MR. SHELLEY: Where is the bulk of it? I mean that is quite a bit, $197,000. That is number 10 in Grants and Subsidies under Tourism, Marketing and Development.

MS KELLY: Rick, could you take that question?

MR. HAYWARD: Mr. Shelley, this is where we would allocate to the Grants and Subsidies area anything that would come to the department for action during the year that would fall from any other category and it was one of the areas that we did not pick up when we were going through. It deals with such things as grants to the Trinity Pageant, our local information chalets and our Signal Hill Tattoo but we did not pick it up going through our review and I did not notice that number. We can provide further information if you so desire. I cannot -

MR. SHELLEY: It is interesting to know. That is quite a bit. It was budgeted in 1997 for $170,000 and now has reached $367,000.

MR. HAYWARD: The Gambo - I am trying to think now -

MS KELLY: Oh, yes, the sculpture that we matched; I remember now a part of it, anyway. We agreed to match twenty-five cents on every dollars they raised, was it, I think? They, of course, when they unveiled the statue last year, had raised more than was anticipated; so there is part of it there.

I think the other one that you did not include there was the Stephenville Festival, which is another (inaudible).

MR. HAYWARD: The Stephenville Festival comes under there as well.

MR. SHELLEY: If you could give some further information on that later.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: It would be interesting to see, with that much of an increase.

Down under Marketing Agreements, for $250,000, what kind of activities are financed by this $250,000? Can you give us - Purchased Services, there.

MS KELLY: Oh, yes, the ACTP Agreement which, I guess, was just announced last week. That is a program whereby we co-op partner with the other three Atlantic Provinces, and a lot of it is for international marketing but, in particular, would be very broad-based marketing, I guess, brand-name marketing, that would look at encouraging people all over the world to know where Atlantic Canada is and what we have to offer as a region.

MR. SHELLEY: That is where it comes from, okay.

Right under that, then, under John Cabot 500th Anniversary Celebrations, of course, from the revised Budget to the Estimates, that is a difference of some $1.2 million. What was that decrease all about - Grants and Subsidies?

MS KELLY: That is our total, I guess, $5 million, that we had to implement the celebrations, and this year, of course, we are into the implementation of the celebrations, but the anchor events in particular would be all going through there, and the seventeen ports and the regional festivals.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay.

On the next page, 3.1.02., Arts and Culture Centres, Purchased Services again, number 06. -

MS KELLY: Right on.

MR. SHELLEY: Which services will be purchased for these to increase by that much?

MS KELLY: Well, mostly the increase this year is because of the increased activity, in particular, in certain Arts and Culture Centres. St. John's, for instance, with the Festival 500, there is an extra $500,000 put in there because of the extra activity in them, but if you notice, we will also be balancing it out, that we will make $500,000 increased revenue also. Most of that, I think, has to do with the St. John's Arts and Culture Centre, but some would occur in Corner Brook and I am not sure -

MR. SHELLEY: Those are basically extra things that would happen with (inaudible).

MS BATSTONE: Yes, and it is a net -

MS KELLY: The International Drama Festival is also the other one that will cause greatly increased activity in St. John's.

MS BATSTONE: But it is meant to be a net amount. If the entire $500,000 is not needed for incremental events that take place in the summer, then it would balance out. It is a contingency, to make sure we do not have to shut the centres at any time they are needed during the Cabot year.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay.

On the next page, 3.1.04., Grants and Subsidies again, under Cultural Industries Support, which programs and activities come from that? What are we losing there?

MS KELLY: Well, this is the end of the agreement. As you notice, there is only $30,000 left in the agreement.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MS KELLY: So this is just sort of like, I guess, the infrastructure program, it is the end of a federal/provincial agreement and this is just the tying up of all the loose ends.

MR. SHELLEY: I have one more and then I will pass to Tom for a few minutes and maybe come back. Not on park development; I will leave that. On Recreation and Sports -

MS KELLY: Which page?

MR. SHELLEY: I know one job that was over there had to do with travelling around to promote different recreation... Maybe I will just ask a question in the Estimates and get an answer to it; that would be the best way. Community Sports Facilities.

MS KELLY: Yes.

In the Grants and Subsidies there, in 5.1.02.10, it went from almost $1.5 million down to $852,000.

This particular allotment, you see huge fluctuations in it from year to year, depending on what is happening in that year. Like, when you have the Labrador Games and the Summer Games were held this past year now. A lot of this is related to development of infrastructure and so on for the Canada Games for 1999. So $756,000, I believe, of this is for the Canada Games that are upcoming. Then, of course, we have some expense involvement this year with the Canada Summer Games that are occurring in Brandon, Manitoba.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. Back up on top again. In Salaries, $558,700 to $405,000. What positions were lost there with Administration and Support Services?

MS KELLY: Mainly in headquarters - not out in the regions, in (inaudible) -

MR. SHELLEY: Was that - I forget -

MS KELLY: This is Program Review.

WITNESS: (Inaudible) recreation consultants.

MS KELLY: (Inaudible) recreation consultants in the department. The recreation consultants out in the Province, all the positions were kept. But some of the recreation consultants within the Province, of course, positions were lost.

MR. SHELLEY: There was a position out in Corner Brook for the Canada Games, was there not?

MS KELLY: No. That position is sustained. We still have that position in place.

MR. SHELLEY: Do you?

MS KELLY: We of course have to have that position in place.

MR. SHELLEY: I thought a person -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS KELLY: Well, it has been - I guess it is still there -

MR. SHELLEY: It is changed, is it not?

MS KELLY: - but I guess we need to explain how it is still there.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MR. BUIST: That position - Jamie Schwartz -

MR. SHELLEY: Jamie Schwartz, yes.

MR. BUIST: - Jamie is seconded, Mr. Shelley, until the end of the Canada Winter Games.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MR. BUIST: The department is picking up his salary.

MR. SHELLEY: Oh, okay.

MR. BUIST: We also have a regional consultant in Corner Brook, who was Lorne Barbour, who is now Josh Carey, so - but Jamie Schwartz was seconded about a year-and-a-half ago to assist the 1999 Canada Winter Games society. He will continue in that role as general manger, funded by the department, until the end of the Games.

MR. SHELLEY: Until the end of the Games?

MR. BUIST: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. I thought he was gone.

MR. BUIST: No.

MR. SHELLEY: Another one, then, I will ask in particular. Sandy Hickman.

MR. BUIST: Actually, I can tell you that there were three manager positions in the support and recreation headquarters. All three of those positions have been made redundant. The support and recreation consultants are reporting directly to the director, Vic Janes.

MR. SHELLEY: But Sandy Hickman's job?

MR. BUIST: Sandy has actually been redeployed in the department as a marketing specialist, sport, leisure, and festivals, in the touring-sightseeing market on the tourism side.

MR. SHELLEY: What was he doing just before that?

MS KELLY: In sport.

MR. BUIST: Sandy had been deployed on a secondment to an SEP, a Strategic Economic Plan initiative, called the Festivals and Events Commission.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes. He was getting some good results from that.

MR. BUIST: Actually, we were, and still are. That is why he is still in that area, Mr. Shelley. We actually made it a full-time position now as opposed to one that he was seconded to.

MR. SHELLEY: Because I follow that. I have been involved with the sports scene for quite a while.

MR. BUIST: He will be working with the Mount Pearl Sport Alliance, with Sport Newfoundland and Labrador -

MR. SHELLEY: Oh, good.

MR. BUIST: - in attracting those major sporting events, the Brier, et cetera.

MR. SHELLEY: That is good.

MS KELLY: If you look at the success of that division, really - Brenda Walsh also works there, and there is another person, too. Paul Thomey was there. I think there are an extra 40,000 people coming this year for conventions, special events, festivals, and sports tournaments like what Softball Newfoundland is putting off

MR. SHELLEY: It means a lot to the Province.

MS KELLY: - and the national junior men's -

MR. SHELLEY: Softball.

MS KELLY: - softball in Clarenville. All of that, I think, is a - that was a very successful initiative and one which will change its focus somewhat, but will stay, and we want to do an even better job with it. This was a learning experience and one that a lot of people in the Province felt we ought to be doing. But I think we proved in spades that it is well worth doing.

MR. SHELLEY: It certainly is. I am a big supporter of that, by the way, because my life previous to politics was involved with that. As a matter of fact, we brought one of the biggest, the national junior women's and men's basketball championships here back in the early 1980s, and it was very successful. Those types of things mean a lot to the people who are involved in the sports in the Province, plus, of course, the revenues it brings in to the Province. And it gives our athletes a chance for exposure that -

the cost of travel and it is very good. Sandy Hickman has done some very good work in that field over the years, so I support that.

Anyway, I am going to pass it over to Tom for a little while for a few questions. I have a couple of more but not too many more - or you can alternate back and forth or whatever. Mr. Chairman, it is up to you.

CHAIR: Go ahead, Tom.

MR. OSBORNE: Good evening, Minister, and executive members.

On page 1, the expenditures for tourism and promotion have decreased from $8,492,600 to $6,402,200 under the Program Funding Summary. What is the reason for the decrease there?

MS KELLY: Which one, Tom, are you referring to - the total program estimates?

MR. OSBORNE: Yes, under the Program Funding Summary; Executive and Support Services and Tourism.

MS KELLY: Okay, and you are asking for the difference in why $34,815,000 as opposed to $27,716,000?

MR. OSBORNE: Well, no, I guess under expenditures for tourism and promotion there has been a decrease of roughly 24 per cent in expenditures.

MS KELLY: We are looking at different figures here from what - which page are you on?

MR. OSBORNE: The Program Funding Summary heading.

CHAIR: What is your heading?

MR. OSBORNE: Under Executive and Support Services and Tourism. Yes, I guess the bottom totals are $34,815,000.

CHAIR: That is the gross expenditures there.

MR. OSBORNE: Yes.

MS KELLY: Okay, so you are looking at the difference, because the two top figures on mine - the totals are the same under current and you go over to totals. So are you talking Culture and Heritage, the two -

MR. OSBORNE: Yes, well, the program estimates, the total.

MS KELLY: - and Parks, Recreational Services and Facilities?

MR. OSBORNE: Yes.

MS KELLY: Okay, well parks, I think, as you certainly are quite aware that the Parks are the privatization of twenty-one parks. The amount of $1.8 million will not be fully realized this year because this is an implementation year. So this is the amount for this year.

Recreational Services and Facilities, I would have to go back to my notes here now because I did not put my notes here at the beginning as we went through. Recreation and Sport would come in under Recreational Services and Facilities, I believe, and some of that - as I have just outlined to Mr. Shelley - would be mainly in headquarters or program review. The (inaudible) and the winter games - I am not giving you the correct information here because what I am pointing out to you is that some of it has decreased but the winter games are actually an increase.

MR. HAYWARD: Mr. Osborne, you are looking at the first page 160-164, I guess, the 1997-1998 Estimates?

MR. OSBORNE: Yes.

MS KELLY: Title page? What was the question?

MR. OSBORNE: Well, the program estimates - why the decrease in the amount for the programs?

MR. HAYWARD: Are you looking from last year to this year?

MR. OSBORNE: Yes.

MS KELLY: Staffing, mostly, through program review and, of course, the parks. I think, to get a complete answer to your question we would really need to take each of the sections.

CHAIR: Your headings, this will all be picked up in your headings. That is the gross.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay, yes (inaudible).

MS KELLY: And it is very difficult, just off the top of my head. If we went through each of the headings through Executive and Support through Tourism, I think we would catch the answer for you there very clearly.

CHAIR: Yes, you pick it up in your headings under each -

MR. OSBORNE: All right. Now, you mentioned, Minister, that the $1.8 million this year, the savings would not be realized because it is an implementation year. The parks will be privatized this year. What expenditures will cause that $1.8 million not to be realized?

MS KELLY: The expenditures that started right from the announcement: preparing and working with employees and doing consultations, the meetings that we held to encourage employees to put together business proposals. We, of course, provided seminars for them and paid their way in to do that. This year we have a person seconded totally, Mr. Jim Byrne, to that process, who is helping us work through it now.

We will also have a person in place for park inspection this year to ensure that there is someone to work with them to keep the parks up to the absolute best standard that we all want to see in this Cabot celebration year. We have put together a major manual to give to all of the new operators - and, of course, that can be given to any of the private operators in our parks - that starts, you know, how to open the park and how to get on with it.

The forty-seven park rangers who will be re-employed in the - I guess it is ninety-two people altogether who would be in a lay-off position with the closure of the twenty-one parks. As you know, some of them have been going through voluntary retirement packages, special severance packages, but forty-seven of them we will re-employ in the core thirteen parks that are left. Of course, that will cause extra expense this year, because these positions would have been fewer weeks and at a lesser salary in previous years. But we are re-employing these people as park rangers. So, of course, there is extra salary cost there.

What others might I...? Oh yes, marketing now for the summer so that we develop the proper information for tourists who are coming into the Province, that as they go through our gateways and through our VICs they are given all of the correct information about the parks.

MR. OSBORNE: The forty-seven employees who are going to keep their employment, will that be just for this year?

MS KELLY: No, not necessarily.

MR. OSBORNE: So that -

MS KELLY: But there will be extra costs this year to getting them re-employed. The plan is that they will continue their employment in the thirteen core parks and any of the extra weeks that -

MR. OSBORNE: Will they be kept on as permanent employees next year, and the following, and the following year, for example?

MS KELLY: Yes, they will be.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay. So if that is part of the master plan, should that not affect your $1.8 million in savings?

MS KELLY: It will to a degree, because there is even - we will probably have to find savings in other areas to ensure the cost savings of $1.8 million and be able to re-employ all forty-seven.

MR. OSBORNE: What cost is it to keep those forty-seven employees on?

MS KELLY: What cost is it? I would have to get their hourly wages and get the benefits and get it all computed. Would you like that information? I mean, it is just the normal, standard whatever the park rangers - some of it also will depend, I guess, on what level they come in on, how many years of experience they have. So until everything is all set I would not be able to give you an exact figure. Would we have a ball park figure?

MR. THOMPSON: Yes, but the -

MR. OSBORNE: It is just the ball park figure I am looking for.

MR. THOMPSON: The key point is that instead of re-employing students in the parks this year, we are taking that salary budget and using it as a basis to redeploy the forty-seven additional rangers. In doing that, there is approximately $100,000 additional cost. We will carry that cost in the future years by finding savings in the overall departmental salary envelope. So the commitment that we make to the forty-seven redeployed employees will be carried forward into all future years.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay. So that is at an approximate cost of $100,000, you are saying.

MR. THOMPSON: That is right.

MS KELLY: One hundred thousand dollars extra over and above the salary allotment that was there for students.

MR. OSBORNE: For the students. So the student employment loss will be an indefinite loss, I guess, as far as student employment goes.

MS KELLY: Well, this year in particular, my understanding is that we have the most student employment opportunities throughout government, through the various programs throughout government, that we have ever had. We felt that students could be employed under other programs and, of course, some of the private operators certainly will want to pick up some of the experienced students. We felt there were good employment opportunities in the privatized parks, and even, like, through SWASP and that students could be applying to get work experience in our public parks.

We felt that our first obligation was to our displaced employees, and we also felt that we had to find the extra funding to employ them at the same salary range as a park ranger had always been employed at.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay. So the student employment - am I understanding there will be no student employment now in the thirteen core parks?

MS KELLY: That is correct.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay.

MR. SHELLEY: Can I just ask a question related to that?

MS KELLY: Although I should clarify that, because it does not mean there will be no student employment. It may mean that students, by choice, will apply through various government programs, and parks may also, when they are eligible, be able to apply. But from our point of view, from our budget allocation, there is no money allotted to employ students in the thirteen core parks.

MR. OSBORNE: As was in previous years.

MS KELLY: But that does not mean there will not be any there.

MR. SHELLEY: Sure. Just to add to that. The historic sites that are still there, you had students for those, too. Will there be - like you did last year, you gave the members an opportunity to put the names forward for historic sites.

MS KELLY: Yes, and also some in VICs. Now, I anticipate that many of the students - we had gone through the year before last a lot of students who had worked through their third year with us. So we employed a lot of students for the first time last year. We will have many students who will qualify to have a recall. There may not be many employment opportunities in those areas for new students that, you know, we -

MR. SHELLEY: But historic sites will still have students?

MS KELLY: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. Sorry about that.

MR. OSBORNE: That is alright. I wonder if you can give me a rough idea of the total number of employees who will be losing positions through the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation this year?

MS KELLY: Numbers. You can probably do more so than I can. Year one, year two, year three. I know we are - the 150 range?

MR. HAYWARD: Besides the parks numbers, which I think you have been informed of before, and I do not know very well, I believe there are around fifteen, sixteen positions. Robert?

MR. THOMPSON: Yes, it is a funny thing, because it is a moving target. In the parks area where there were ninety-two seasonal employees displaced, I had a report today that there are approximately eighteen left that we have not either found another job or we had not taken a voluntary early departure, early exit option. So we have whittled that number down to a very low number.

With regard to the approximately fifteen to twenty other redundant positions within the department this year, we have either re-employed into other positions, or had taken early retirement, virtually all of them. We may be down to one or two who are left. We have been very successful in re-employing. While the number of positions have been reduced, there are very few people who will actually not have an employment option of some kind, or a retirement option of some kind, this year. We can get you more precise numbers on that one as well, if you would like.

MS KELLY: They will even continue to change for a while yet, will they not? (Inaudible) was telling me.

WITNESS: Oh yes, (inaudible).

MR. OSBORNE: Just going through the Estimates, there are a number - like the Minister's Office, for example. There is a reduction in Salaries by $16,700.

MS KELLY: Right, I had forgotten that. There are really no changes in mine. When I first became minister, actually I think a month or eight weeks into the position, the departmental secretary, there was a redundancy there. That was $16,000, you said?

MR. HAYWARD: It was around $15,000 - $20,000 in retirement (inaudible).

MS KELLY: Yes, so really, my departmental budget is exactly the same. There are no staff changes in my office.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay, so that does not constitute a lay-off or a reduction in employment?

MS KELLY: No.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay. In Executive Support, again there is another $20,000, for example.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) steps in classifications, we have new people and that kind of thing.

MS KELLY: Yes, because we have had - the deputy minister has changed this year. The secretary position has changed there. So it is the difference in work experience, years of seniority.

MR. OSBORNE: So there are no positions lost there, for example?

MS KELLY: No, there are no positions lost.

MR. OSBORNE: In Administrative Support there is $218,800.

MR. HAYWARD: Mr. Osborne, the three departments of Industry, Trade and Technology, Environment and Labour, and Tourism, Culture and Recreation - that is where the funding for the human resource and the financial and general operations sections of those departments is budgeted. As part of government's continuing reduction to its administrative component of government, they have continued to amalgamate and that kind of thing. As a result, at that level you will see a savings of around $250,000 from the original budget of 1996-1997. So there is an ongoing effort there to reduce the size of the administrative structure in financing Human Resources, and that is why there are savings there.

MS KELLY: Of course, you need less administration when you have less staff also, with twenty-one fewer parks and all of the other staff with positions lost through program review. I think it would be expected that you would have less administrative costs when you have fewer people to administer.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay. I will not badger you with any more questions on the - I think for the most part we can figure out what the estimates are reading. I went through the salaries just to get kind of an idea of why the reductions.

Just one further question: Are you expecting tomorrow or Thursday to release the names of the new operators of the provincial parks, the twenty-one parks?

MS KELLY: No, I would not expect to see it that soon because while we have done interviews and we have started notifying people, we now have to negotiate with what we hope will be the new operators. So until you reach a successful conclusion I think it would be very unfair to say who you have been negotiating with because it may be that when we go back to some of them now they might change their minds and you will have to move to the next person on the list. So until we have concluded a successful negotiation, we would not be announcing who will be operating each park.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay, so you have reduced your short list to one on each park?

MS KELLY: Yes, we have started notifying people so now we have to start the negotiation period, and if the negotiation is not successful you will move to the next person on the list.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay. Are you at liberty, at this point, to give me an indication of the range of bids on the parks?

MS KELLY: No, not at this time.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay, thank you.

CHAIR: Yes, Paul.

MR. SHELLEY: Nobody else has a question? I just have a couple to finish off with that's all. Cabot flags - I have seen some of them. How are they being distributed? I guess they are coming through your -

MS KELLY: Municipalities and local service districts - who else might be on the list? There was a package mailed out to all of them.

MR. SHELLEY: Communities that are having Come Home Years?

MS KELLY: No, every municipality in every community in the Province received a package. Now, we also have made available information, because many people have wanted to have a flag and, of course, the flags are of very good quality because, as you know, the celebrations started in January. In Labrador they have been flying the flag since the international dog sled race and the same thing, I guess, on the West Coast since their festival that we - for private entrepreneurs we supply the names to everyone who calls in of where to buy, not just the flags, but all of the very different and very high quality Cabot souvenirs that are available this year. I have just started to see a lot of them recently, and there are just incredible things being produced by people in this Province, everything from Cabot watches, clothes, really nice high-quality items, and some craft items, too. I am told that in Bonavista, some people are preparing 3,000 hand-crafted items each in some areas down there, so there should be great availability and, I am told, very high quality - everything from lawn chairs on.

MR. SHELLEY: Back again to the Matthew just for one minute, before I get to the last question I have tonight, like weather... There are certain locations that are picked now, of course, in trying to prepare for it. As they travel, you are going to have bad weather along the way, for sure. Often it is -

MS KELLY: There are contingency plans built in. There are good time lines there, and contingency plans built in for that. Of course, once you are over here, I think, and you can sail closer to land, it is much easier to plan their itinerary, but there is a significant amount of time built in there for weather contingency.

Of course, I think everyone in this Province realizes - we all grew up on these 10,000 miles of coastline and we know what can happen to schedules. All of us who have been travelling this week have known that airline schedules are sometimes off. The ferry today, I understand, out of North Sydney, has been delayed. I think people know that everything to do with the Matthew is based on weather, and I think people in Newfoundland will be very understanding of that.

MR. SHELLEY: I am sure they will be. It is just that all I can think about is all of the preparations going on. For example, in LaScie, in my district, where the Matthew is coming in, like everywhere else where the Matthew is coming in, there is so much energy going into preparing for this, and I guess if it is late or whatever, all I want to be sure is that it is getting there sooner or later.

MS KELLY: I remember last year when I was in your district, in Fleur de Lys was it, and they had a Come Home Year last year, and the weather was absolutely terrible. I think they all agreed at the end that it was probably the best celebration the community had ever had. They worked so hard for it, and people came up with a contingency every single time the weather stood in their way.

I remember going to one event, and everybody in the community who had an orange or blue tarp had put them all together and made one great big stage area with all of the tarps that everyone owned in the community. When you sat on the stage and looked up, there was a big marker with the name of whoever owned the tarp all over your head. So I think here we are used to the vagaries of weather.

MR. THOMPSON: If I could add, in terms of the schedule, the Matthew has a towing apparatus built in and the HMCS St. John's, or certainly coast guard vessels, will be accompanying the Matthew all the way around, and if, for some reason, there are strong winds and the vessel cannot navigate -

MR. SHELLEY: A good idea.

MR. THOMPSON: It will make it to port on time. So there is a good contingency plan built in to make sure of that.

MS KELLY: I had forgotten that.

MR. THOMPSON: Now, if it is still raining and blowing when they have to do the landfall ceremony it might be quite as pleasant an event for outdoor theatre, but nevertheless -

MS KELLY: It might be more accurate.

MR. THOMPSON: It will be on time.

MR. SHELLEY: That is good.

I am just noticing. The last thing, then, before I close, is back to the parks again. I never leave the estimates without at least asking one district question. Can you tell me - or maybe you cannot, I do not know - if there is more than one proposal for the park in Baie Verte, the Flatwater Pond Provincial Park? I know there is at least one. Is there just one?

MS KELLY: I could not tell you.

MR. SHELLEY: You cannot tell me anything, can you?

MS KELLY: No.

MR. SHELLEY: Can I find that out?

MS KELLY: There was quite a good proposal, actually, on that park, and in the upcoming two weeks I anticipate we will be able to give you that information.

MR. SHELLEY: The obvious reason I am asking, I know the one that is in. If it is only one then I assume that person will get the proposal. That is why I was asking.

MS KELLY: No, I think we have to conclude the negotiations before we would give out information like that, because all of this was done in a way that many of the proponents asked that their proposals be kept confidential; that if, for instance, their proposals were not accepted, the parks were not awarded a negotiation to them, that we would return them.

A lot of these business people have put a lot of good information on the line that they really would not want us, as a government, if we are not going to be awarding the parks to them, to be making all of their financial records and everything available to the public and to others, so I think we have to respect their wishes until we make the announcements.

MR. SHELLEY: I just mentioned about all the communities that are having Come Home Years. Can you just give me a brief outline again, to make we have not missed anything with the eight I had, what your department is able to do for them. I think there was a flag and -

MS KELLY: Well, mostly what we have been doing, of course, is the pageantry package and so on, but the main thing we have done for them, which has been very helpful in our marketing efforts and, of course, very helpful to the Come Home Year celebrations committees, is that they have provided us with a list and we have done all of the mail-outs. We have done as high as three mail-outs for some committees and, of course, at forty-five cents a stamp - or higher, I guess, when all of the information is put in... They give us a list and then we send out their package of information, and we also provide the Province's information, either the tour guide or all of the information on the festivities themselves that are occurring all over the Province. That has been the major financial help that we have given to the Come Home Year celebration committees.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. I do not have any other question. I just hope it is going to be a good year. I think it should be. Even the number of people coming back throughout the Province, with that many - seventy - communities having Come Home Years alone will attract quite a bit besides, of course, the offset of tourists that will be coming back with our advertising across the country and around the world. There are a lot of Newfoundlanders coming home, so hopefully it will be a good summer for everybody.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Tom?

MR. OSBORNE: In closing, I have just one final question. Minister, once the new park operators are released to the public, the names and so on, will the information - I understand the tendering package itself cannot be released to the public, but the number of proposals on each park, and the amounts, and who actually submitted the proposal?

MS KELLY: I guess, whatever from the Department of Justice and what would be available under Freedom of Information we would certainly be providing at that time.

MR. OSBORNE: Okay, thank you.

CHAIR: Bill?

MR. RAMSAY: I move, based on the conclusion of the hon. members, that we now move the subheads from 1.1.01 inclusive.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 7.1.02, inclusive, carried.

On motion, Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Minister, I would like to thank you and your staff for the -

MR. RAMSAY: Mr. Chairman, if I may.

CHAIR: Yes, go ahead.

MR. RAMSAY: It seems that the whole process - and this is just general, nothing to do with your department - of Estimates committees almost seems to have become somewhat redundant. The information that is provided by departments, it seems now that it could very easily be provided - because I know that ministers have access to information in making decisions. Often it is compiled in a format such that as your officials would, the minister would know exactly what to tell us in the process. It is almost as if there maybe should be some changes to the whole process of examining the Estimates. If it were in the form of a book that would have all of this information in it, the Opposition - the media does not pay any attention to the committees anymore. At one time they used to be a grand tour for media and a lot of things, but now -

MR. SHELLEY: It is information-gathering. What Bill is saying is right. It can be done, and also we do not waste any time - not that we are here to waste time. Certainly, I am not going to use three hours asking particular questions on that. Besides, the pertinent questions are asked in the House.

MR. RAMSAY: Maybe if the committee can have that noted and can make a suggestion to the House along those lines when the report is made.

MR. SHELLEY: Also a suggestion that if we are going to end off this early, the minister should have us out to dinner. Agreed?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RAMSAY: We forgot to tell her, where she was not feeling well after last night.

MS KELLY: It is a bad day to ask me to go anywhere near a restaurant.

MR. SHELLEY: (Inaudible).

MR. RAMSAY: Perhaps the Clerk could note those and have that made a part of the report.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister, and your officials for the information and I thank the members.

This meeting is adjourned.