Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Mr. Gerald Reid, MHA for Twillingate & Fogo, substitutes for Mr. Rick Woodford, MHA for Humber Valley.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in Room 5083, Confederation Building.

CHAIR (Canning): Order, please!

Welcome to the Estimates Committee for the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

Before we get into the business of the day perhaps, given that the minutes are circulated, we can make a motion to accept the minutes of the last meeting.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Before we get into the minister's speech, I would like to make a presentation to the minister and her department - in fact the government - on behalf of the committee that organized the Newfoundland and Labrador Winter Games. They have sent this plaque out and have asked that it be presented to you for all the work and dedication of your employees in the department to ensure that the games went off in a star-spangled fashion, and they did. So, Minister, I would like to make this presentation this morning. This is not normal for an Estimates Committee, but I thought it would be appropriate.

MS KELLY: Thank you very much.

I feel bad in some ways in accepting it, but I will make sure that it is passed on to the staff. It is absolutely beautiful, actually. These were the medals that were at the games.

I have to say, given that Labrador West, I guess - because it was both communities who put the games off - only had about twenty months to prepare... No, it was less than that.

WITNESS: Eleven months.

MS KELLY: It was eleven months. Was it that short a time? They really did a fantastic job. Thank you very, very much. We will make sure this hangs in a prominent place in the department, and I will make sure that all the employees who worked so hard on it - because most of what I had to do with the games was all very enjoyable, there was very little work associated with it, so thank you very much. I will put it here now so I will not leave it.

CHAIR: Okay, Minister, perhaps you would like to have your staff introduce themselves. Also, as members of the staff speak or answer questions, they might want to identify the names for the purpose of Hansard. Minister, if you would like to take a few moments to go through a brief outline of your department...

MS KELLY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I welcome, actually, the opportunity to present to the Committee the Estimates of the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation for the 1998-1999 year.

First of all, I should apologize for the sound of my voice. I have a heavy head cold and my hearing is a little affected, so if I have to ask you to repeat things please excuse me.

I will start by introducing the officials in my department. To my right is Elizabeth Batstone, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister responsible for Cultural and Natural Heritage. To my left is Mr. Rick Hayward, who is the Director of Financial and General Operations.

I guess I should start by talking about last year first. We feel, from a departmental point of view, that 1999 was very successful with the Cabot calendar of events. The 500th Anniversary was definitely a significant event with an estimated increase in the visitation of over 69,000 non-resident tourists over the previous year, which translates really into 22 per cent.

I remember when we first started setting our goals for the year. Many said that getting an extra 5 per cent is considered a very good year, 10 per cent is excellent, 15 per cent is almost unattainable, and that 20 per cent was probably too optimist. So we were very fortunate in exceeding our goals and getting it up to 22 per cent.

In 1998-1999 the department has been provided with $1.5 million to undertake product development, planning and marketing for Soiree '99 and the Viking Millennium celebrations in the year 2000. I am sure that you, as members of the Committee, will have further questions on this as we proceed today.

In addition to the above, I would like to highlight the following for 1998-1999: The Canada Games will be held in Corner Brook in February, and funding of $445,000 has been provided in our Estimates to improve the Corner Brook pool and the Stephenville recreation centre.

The department was also able, in 1997-1998, to provide a $600,000 endowment to the Heritage Foundation to continue its efforts in conserving our built heritage. Additional funding of $140,000 was also allocated to the cultural sector, and $238,000 was provided to the Wheelchair Sports Federation and the World Triathlon planning committee for recreation initiatives. The World Triathlon, actually, will be held in the western part of our Province in August.

The Economic Renewal Agreement funding of $3.7 million has also been provided to continue with tourism related initiatives under that program. This is in addition to the $7.8 million spent in 1997-1998 in this area.

So with the above highlights - I have kept my comments very brief because I am not really good at making them here this morning - I would welcome all of your questions and we will do our very, very best to answer them as well as we can.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Fitzgerald, would you like to begin with the questions?

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, under the Minister's Office heading, 1.1.01, $199,000 was budgeted; $198,300 was the revised; budgeted this year is $213,400. Is that new -

MS KELLY: I am sorry, which one are you referring to again?

MR. FITZGERALD: 1.1.01, Minister's Office, Salaries, 01.

MS KELLY: Oh, under Salaries. Yes, right on.

MR. FITZGERALD: Is that new staff being hired?

MS KELLY: No, we have no new staff hired by the Minister's Office this year.

WITNESS: Twenty-seven pay-days.

MS KELLY: Oh, yes, it was the extra payday, twenty-seven pay-days for this period. Right on.

MR. HAYWARD: Mr. Fitzgerald, you will notice that all the way through the Estimates there are twenty-seven pay-days in this year.

MR. FITZGERALD: What is the total number of staff you have in your office, Minister?

MS KELLY: I just have my executive assistant and a political assistant and my departmental secretary.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, so the amount of monies that is shown there for salaries would be the extra payday for just those three people?

MR. HAYWARD: It is an extra payday and five people; you have communications.

MS KELLY: Oh, yes, I am sorry, communications is also under my department this year. That is the PR person in my department, Doug Burgess.

WITNESS: There is a 2 per cent raise there too, isn't there?

WITNESS: The raise is there too. (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Under most of the headings there is a large amount of money, and I noticed it in all budgets in all departments, for Information Technology. I am trying to figure out what that is. It cannot be the purchase of all new computers or new software. There is a tremendous amount of money there.

MS KELLY: In our department this past year we have gone into some major IT developments. The biggest one, of course, is TDMS, the Tourism Destination Management System, that we have entered into a partnership with, and that would be the 1-800 number into the Province.

Last year, for the first time, you could call and not just get information - to request a tourist guide. You can also call now and make reservations. We are further expanding that this year in that all of the (inaudible) accommodations this year are being given a one-time free access to sign up to the TDMS system. You have to have a fax machine in your bed and breakfast, or whatever type of accommodation you are offering. That is mostly the major big expenditure that would be under my department in IT. Do you have anything that you would like to add to that?

MR. HAYWARD: Mr. Fitzgerald, some of the other costs that are expended there would be like the communications back and forth to NewTel Systems I guess they are called now. There are some communication costs involved in there; there is some hardware and software maintenance budgeted for the Arts and Culture Centre systems; there is some small work being performed in our parks area on a geographic information system, and some infrastructure upgrades. The hardware that we run our programs on is constantly breaking down. We need upgrading to run the new products.

MS KELLY: We still have a long way to go.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes. So there are a bunch of things in there and -

MS BATSTONE: Also, we were able to start the museum system onto a new inventory collections management system that is linked into the national system across the country, and the purchase of that software and the training involved in making sure that our staff are capable of utilizing that so that our collections are on the national (inaudible) is also part of that, and that will continue this year.

MR. FITZGERALD: Most of that money is spent with NewTel Communications.

MS KELLY: Not this one.

MR. HAYWARD: That was mostly hardware and a purchased software product that the national government -

MS KELLY: Yes, the museums (inaudible) connected to the NewTel -

MR. HAYWARD: So I would say that roughly 40 per cent or 45 per cent of our funds are spent on NewTel and the rest are hardware, maintenance, communication lines, et cetera. That would be a rough breakdown, Sir.

MS KELLY: Because last year we were also trying to upgrade everything in our home page and everything. In tourism, that is one of the big ways we will promote ourselves in the future and, of course, we need to do major, major upgrading there. We have done some, but nowhere close to where we intend to go in the future.

MR. FITZGERALD: Heading 2.1.01, Tourism, item 05, Professional Services. In the budget for 1997-1998 there is $27,600 budgeted; then it was revised to $206,200. What would be the big expense there of almost $200,000 over and above what was budgeted for in the -

MS KELLY: Which one was that?

MR. FITZGERALD: 2.1.01, item 05, Professional Services.

MS KELLY: Oh, yes, this is the one that I pointed out right here of the planning for Soiree '99. Some of the Viking planning is also in there because we are leading out into planning a major Viking exhibit now for the year 2000. We are already holding meetings with the Smithsonian Institute, the Canadian Museum of Civilization and the Nordic Council of Ministers in the Scandinavian countries.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS KELLY: Right on. I think we went out last December, actually, having to start getting the master plan done while we were just going into the Cabot Celebrations. If I remember correctly, M5 advertising were given the contract to start the planning for Soiree '99.

MR. FITZGERALD: So most of that work is now completed.

MS KELLY: No, but all the preliminary work has been done. We are now putting the special events agency staff in place, and I would say we are past the middle of the planning stage.

MR. FITZGERALD: Because this year there is just $83,000 there compared to $206,200 last year.

MS KELLY: Yes, but some of that is down under .10, Grants and Subsidies, if you notice the big increase there.

MR. FITZGERALD: That was the next one, yes. That is the same thing?

MS KELLY: That is for the planning and implementation of next year's Soiree '99. Because the Soiree celebrations will start, of course, on New Year's Eve of this year. The first lot of money that will be spent on Soiree had to be in this year's budget, because the major celebration that will be held through Soiree '99 is the March 31 period of next year, before the year end. The first quarter money had to go into this year's budget.

MR. FITZGERALD: Under heading 2.1.03.01, Revenue-Federal. Am I reading that correctly when I see $350,000 budgeted there? I would assume your department expected to have received $350,000 from the federal government, but only received $150,000.

MS KELLY: That's the Canadian Heritage money for, I assume - Rick, you can correct me -, the Year of the Arts. That is not all in yet.

MR. HAYWARD: We are waiting for a final report out of the (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: There is a further $200,000 to come?

MS KELLY: They are waiting the final report, and I think the Festival of the Arts actually has that completed now. Rick also indicates to me that that's the way that we had agreed that we would allow them to cash flow it.

MR. FITZGERALD: So the whole thing was actually changed. Because if you look at Grants and Subsidies it is the same thing, $1.7 million, and you received almost $1 million more. Right?

Minister, the sportsplex that has been proposed for Clarenville, is that still a go? I haven't seen much happening there. Every time I drive by there I expect to see something. I am wondering if it is still on the go.

MS KELLY: I think most of the funding for that is all through the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, if I remember correctly.

MR. FITZGERALD: Is there some funding through your department or not?

MS KELLY: No, I don't think so.

MR. FITZGERALD: None.

MS KELLY: No. It was all done I think through municipal infrastructure, if I remember correctly. There would have been consultation with my department, but the actual budget item and everything would be all done through Municipal and Provincial Affairs, if I remember correctly.

MR. FITZGERALD: Some time ago I had a question regarding a constituent of mine. I contacted the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods about a gentleman who was operating a sawmill up in the Terra Nova area. He wanted to use the railroad trestle there. He had agreed to do whatever work needed to be done to allow him to pull his timber over the trestle so he might market it. I think I wrote your office probably six weeks ago. Is there any problem with that, Minister? Do you see any problem with it?

MS KELLY: My understanding when I sent it out was that there would be no problem with it, from the description that was in the letter that you sent to me. I had assumed all of that was in place and done by now. Is it?

MR. FITZGERALD: I haven't heard, but maybe your department may have contacted me (inaudible). I haven't talked to him either.

MS KELLY: We can certainly take a note and you can check. Liz, do you know anything about that?

MR. FITZGERALD: It is the main trestle in Terra Nova.

MS KELLY: Most all of them we just sign agreements on the side with them. We have had several.

MR. FITZGERALD: It is the main one going across the river. I don't know exactly where it is.

MR. HAYWARD: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I think so.

MR. HAYWARD: Because the other one is done out the (inaudible), towards the park.

MR. FITZGERALD: This is an individual who has got some cutting rights to land owned by Abitibi. His problem was that he was in fear that -

MS KELLY: Has he contacted you to say that it hasn't all been taken care of?

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. The last time I spoke to him, which was about six weeks ago, prior to my letter to you.

MS KELLY: Yes. I'm assuming now since then that would have been put in place. When I sent the letter out to my staff there was no indication that this would be any different than the other agreements we are currently doing with companies like Kruger and Abitibi and smaller sawmill operators.

MS BATSTONE: Is this on the main line? I cannot recall this one.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I think it is.

MS KELLY: Yes, but it is not to go along the main line, it is to cross the main line, I think, if I remember correctly, is it?

MR. FITZGERALD: It was only to use the trestle. He was not going to use any other part of the railroad bed. It was to use the trestle to get across the river. He had agreed to do whatever work needed to be done to upgrade it so it might accommodate his works there at his own expense.

MS KELLY: We will check that for you.

MR. FITZGERALD: He had no problem with using it, by the way, at certain times, certain hours, certain months of the year, weeks of the year. That wasn't a problem, so that it would not interfere with the whole trailway.

MR. HAYWARD: If you can give us his name it will be easier to track it down.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you. Minister, are there any other provincial parks to be privatized this year?

MS KELLY: No. There is one park that is not completely privatized of the twenty-one, and that is Windmill Bight. We have the ad in the paper for that one now.

MR. FITZGERALD: Is that fair to say, then, that is the end of privatization of provincial parks?

MS KELLY: Yes, it is fair to say. We have a core now of thirteen parks. Three of those will be keystone parks and the rest will be regional parks. We have some six natural and scenic attraction parks left.

MR. FITZGERALD: Culture and Heritage, 3.1.02, Arts and Culture Centres, .06, Purchased Services. You had $1,755,00 estimated for the budget, and it was revised to $1,076,200.

MS KELLY: I think that is mostly - yes, okay, Rick.

MR. HAYWARD: Mr. Fitzgerald, during the Cabot celebrations the Province provided an extra $500,000 in purchased services. If you look down at the bottom of the page, the difference between Revenue-Provincial - $1,557,600 and $1,057,600 - is offset by revenues of the same amount, $500,000, in anticipation of incremental activities at the Arts and Culture Centres.

While there were incremental activities, the $500,000 was not necessary to deal with the work that the Arts and Culture Centres performed in that year. The remainder of the difference between $1,755,000 and $1,076,200 relates to monies transferred to salaries. If you note up on the top, the budget was $1,004,700 and it went to $1,189,800. The department has the ability to change around its expenditures to match its programming, and the $500,000 was provided to be offset by revenue. Neither materialized. If you noticed down under we have less revenue as well.

MR. FITZGERALD: The totals remain pretty much the same.

MR. HAYWARD: The nets are pretty much on, yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: 3.1.05.05, Museum Assistance Program, Professional Service again. You had $100,000 budgeted and it was revised to $44,200, and this year it is up to $157,300.

MS KELLY: Maybe you should give the details of that, because we have two or three things happening in the museums this year. A strategic plan was done, and then we had also revised our grants and subsidies under the Museum Assistance Program. Rick, could you provide the details of that, please?

MR. HAYWARD: Basically, Mr. Fitzgerald, two things happened there. This program is an application based program to the federal government. As you can see, down below Revenue-Federal takes care of most of these numbers. It is an application based program. We were late applying and/or the federal government was late approving the projects in 1997-1998. That is why our budget looks like it does.

Last spring we budgeted $176,000. They approved a fair amount of that, around $150,000 of that, of which we were only able to spend $44,000 because I think the decisions did not come down until October or November. They just did not leave us enough time in the year. Therefore Treasury Board permitted us, because it was cost-shared, to move all of this unspent money, I guess, if you want, or a cash flow issue to the new year, where we have got $261,200.

Basically, it is an application based program that was late in application and/or approval or a bit of both, and we moved it to the new year. The money was not lost. The federal government committed to the program. It is just that it was a delayed implementation.

MR. FITZGERALD: Heading 4.1.01.01, Provincial Parks and Natural Areas. Salaries there have gone the other way. Does that have something to do with the privatization of parks?

MS KELLY: Yes, it does. That was our major Program Review decision. I think altogether we were heading for a $1.8 million savings. In the end I think we were about $200,000 short, because of the fact that in the parks that were privatized the decision was made to hire the parks officers in the newly privatized parks into the core park system that was left. Our savings are between $1.6 million and $1.8 million, which was the main initiative in my department of the cuts that were made because of the Program Review process.

MR. FITZGERALD: Will that be the same thing pretty well all down through those headings there? I notice there was quite a difference in figures there with what was budgeted and what was revised.

MS KELLY: Yes, because of having less parks. That is correct.

MR. FITZGERALD: So as parks came out the savings were reflected in the -

MS KELLY: They did not need the Professional Services, Purchased Services, and obviously not as much equipment. It had an impact right down through the provincial park system.

WITNESS: Including revenue.

MS KELLY: That is true, including revenue. While there was not a lot of revenue in the parks, there certainly was some, so the amounts were decreased for last year.

MR. FITZGERALD: Park Development, 4.1.02.01, Salaries. There was nothing budgeted and then it was revised to $47,000, and this year it is being done away with altogether.

MS KELLY: I think that was in privatizing the parks actually and doing it in-house. Could you confirm that, Mr. Hayward?

MR. HAYWARD: Mr. Fitzgerald, the budgets were basically provided in Professional Services and Purchased Services subsequent to that, and with the privatization we decided to use some of our staff. That $47,000 was used to supervise the projects, to make sure that proper processes and proper controls were exercised over the various projects. That was the use of in-house staff that was unanticipated when we did the budget.

MR. FITZGERALD: Minister, is there any money in your department today small communities can access in order to provide such services as playgrounds, and to enhance playgrounds and recreational facilities out in rural areas?

MS KELLY: Very small amounts, but we are trying to identify now some money that could be used for that. In particular, we are finding that communities who have employment grants, sometimes through the HRD process, that they sometimes are unable to complete small recreational projects in small communities because of not having the money to acquire the materials. We are putting together a program that we think will only give a couple of thousand dollars - I wish it was a couple of hundred thousand dollars, because that is what we need - to each area, but we will know the exact amounts. People are starting to apply, and we are trying to find projects where we can give small grants of $500 to communities. Of course, then we still have the active living program that is done through the recreation division in my department.

MR. FITZGERALD: There used to be, as you know, always a few dollars there that those small communities could access. Now I think most of it is being channelled through the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. There are a lot of communities out there that are not incorporated. It was a good area where they could access funding and maintain a small playground, or buy some playground equipment. That now has been taken from them. I know when I drive through my district I see the fences falling down, I see things there in a state of disrepair. If there was a small amount of money there, even if it was $1,000 or $1,500 a year, it would certainly go a long way to enhance those playgrounds.

MS KELLY: We are attempting to do that. One of the bigger problems, actually, that we are having on a large scale also is that many of the stadiums and larger recreational facilities, ball fields and that, have deteriorated over the years. As you know, the budget has been very limited for the last several years, or for the last five to ten years actually. We need a small scale capital program, but we also need to have a retrofit program. Hopefully, if there is a new infrastructure program in the upcoming year, there will be a hope that communities will be encouraged to apply for those funds. Not for necessarily new facilities, but to retrofit facilities that we already have.

Those are a big concern in my department at the moment. We are trying to at least start putting back in place a small recreational grant program, but it is very difficult with the budgets as tight as they are right now.

MR. FITZGERALD: It was a big help to some of those small towns and small communities, I can assure you, as you know. Minister, only the other night on my way home I popped into a local pub to have a beer, and I chatted with the owner. He indicated that he has something like fifteen or sixteen motel units, and it is the first time since he has owned the establishment that he has not been fully booked this time of year for the May 24 weekend. Then he went on to talk about Trinity Loop being much the same thing. Have you had any other people wondering what is after happening to all the people who went out and around on the May 24 weekend?

MS KELLY: No, and this is the first indication that I have received about it, actually. Most of my travels throughout the Province are indicating that hotel reservations, bus tours, and airline reservations are all up for the upcoming summer. Most of our May 24 traffic would be in-Province traffic. I guess because of the lateness of the spring, and also the fact that the May 24 weekend is fairly early this year, I think people are anticipating that because it is happening just next weekend - May 15 and 16, I think it is - the weather could still be quite cool, and they are not planning to travel that weekend. To be very truthful, this is the first I have heard of it. I am only speculating.

MR. FITZGERALD: Has your department received a request to contribute financially to the June 24 celebrations that are going to happen in Bonavista this year? With the launching of their own Matthew, and the opening of the interpretation - well, I do not think the interpretation centre is going to open at that particular time, but there is a major event planned there for the June 24 weekend.

MS KELLY: I know that the invitation has been scheduled into my calendar, but I do not believe that my department had planned to participate in the financial arrangements for June 24.

MS BATSTONE: The funding for that project, as you know, came under the Economic Renewal Agreement, so any funding connected with that from a p.r. point of view would have come through that area. There is none from our department for (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I will pass for now, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Fitzgerald.

Mr. Barrett.

MR. BARRETT: I do not have any questions. I think Roger mentioned all the (inaudible) in the area, (inaudible) asked questions on it. There are no questions for me.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Ms Thistle.

MS THISTLE: Minister, I must say I was really pleased with the Heritage Foundation of Newfoundland and Labrador, the money that your department put forward, the $600,000, and delighted that our own Town of Grand Falls-Windsor, (inaudible) Hall, received a designation. When you consider that we are a very young community, only formed in 1905, and already we are designated as an heritage property, we are really grateful for that.

I would like to know what is happening with the T'Railway, particularly in the District of Grand Falls-Buchans, the region from Leading Tickles to Buchans. How will that come about during the summer? What is the progression on it? I know we are waiting on final funding. For instance, the Exploits Valley Snowmobile Club in Exploits, they are going to be handling the one our way. Do you know if they will be tendering out that to local communities as they go along with the T'Railways? What is the procedure?

MS KELLY: Most of the funding for the snowmobile initiative, the trail, only part of that is on the T'Railway. I think in total over the three to five year period the budget, through the Department of Development and Rural Renewal, is about $5.6 million under the federal-provincial cost-shared program. It will come from the tip of the Northern Peninsula down to connect to parts of the T'Railway or a loop off the T'Railway.

I think five or six groomers have been purchased and all the warranty work is in the Province. Here is how it will be done. Right now there is a committee made up of my department, the Department of Development and Rural Renewal, and the Newfoundland and Labrador Snowmobile Federation that is making the decisions or planning the trail. Sorry, the Newfoundland T'Railways sit on that committee also, working very closely with the Snowmobile Federation.

The plan is that as the trail is done and the groomers are in place that the local snowmobile clubs will take over the operation of their portion of the T'Railway throughout the Province. We have not signed a memorandum of understanding yet, but we anticipate that what will happen will be very similar on the T'Railway as has happened in Prince Edward Island when, on November 30, the snowmobile federation takes over the T'Railway through that province for snowmobiling purposes, and then in the spring it is passed back to the T'Railway association again.

Ours is a little different, in that the T'Railway across the Province is a provincial park, but many of the other trails that lead into it - the snowmobile trails - are not a part of that system. We have to put together a multi-service agreement. Mostly what will happen is that in the wintertime the snowmobile federations will groom and operate the trail system. There will be standard signage right throughout the Province, very similar to what is in Labrador West now. They probably have the most advanced trail system leading from Labrador City into Fermont, I think. That is the main portion of the trail that has been completed with signage and under the operations of the snowmobile club in that area. White Wolf, I think it is called.

MS THISTLE: Minister, I know there was a trial groomer throughout the winter that went from Leading Tickles to Buchans, and there was a great deal of excitement when we say this groomer go through. Everybody could not wait to be on the trail. What do you see as the schedule for our particular area? What will happen this summer?

MS KELLY: This summer? I am sorry, I thought you were referring to the snowmobile operation in the winter time. The T'Railway right now that is in place from St. John's to Port aux Basques is administered by my department and the Newfoundland T'Railway Council. There is very limited funding in this year's budget. We have been trying to do all the priorities throughout the Province, in particular the culverts and trestles and areas that are of a safety concern. It is being done in an ad hoc way on a priority basis throughout the Province, so I would have to check to see how much has been done in the (inaudible), how much is left to be done, and what is in the budget for this year. Terry Morrison, with the Newfoundland T'Railway Council, and my own parks department, Bob Halfyard, I think, would be the person to ask what is planned in your area.

I am not sure how much upgrading has been done through your areas, but more is done through Central Newfoundland than through the rest of the Province, because in some areas of the Province (inaudible) T'Railway has to be constructed; for instance, in the area of Marble Mountain along where the road has been widened to the Trans Canada Highway in the Corner Brook area. Part of the federal-provincial funding that was put in place, the highways agreement, put money aside, and over this winter the plan has been put in place and that part of the T'Railway will be rebuilt. There will be major work going on, on parts of the T'Railway this summer, but much of it will not be spent through my department. There is very limited funding for the T'Railway because of budgetary restraints for the T'Railway this year. The T'Railway is still usable through most of the Province, except in the Western area of the Province, by hikers and snowmobilers. It is just not upgraded to the same high standard that it is in specific locations, in particular through municipalities.

MS THISTLE: Local people have an expectation that they are going to be involved in the actual work in preparing this trail. How will I find out (inaudible)?

MS KELLY: Through the T'Railway Council and my own staff, through Bob Halfyard and Terry Morrison, as funds become available. Some communities work with the T'Railway Council and access money through HRD. You do get work done that way when materials money can be found, but the most important thing they are working on right now - and I think most of it has been done - is the safety features on the trestles, bridges, and culverts.

MS THISTLE: With respect to the celebrations for next year's Soiree '99, going through different events in my district over the past few months since Christmas, I am surprised to see how many things are going to happen, like the 50th next year. I did not realize it until Soiree '99 came up. There are all kinds of organizations that are celebrating (inaudible). Are there any monetary incentives for groups throughout the Province, other than the ones that have been designated, like the Corner Brook Games and so on?

MS KELLY: Many events will be able to be designated, but because they are designated it does not mean they are getting funds.

MS THISTLE: No.

MS KELLY: The budget will not be as high as it was for the Cabot celebrations but there will be some anchor events and some events very similar to the Cabot celebrations, like the Festival 500 choral anchor event which will go ahead every two years. Of course, we will have it again next year because we had it in 1997. Already the planning is in place for that and they are putting together the corporate sponsorship.

There will be events like the Confederation Symposium around March 31, and hopefully a large national gala concert on the night of March 31. We also hope to introduce events called `Community Times'. In many Provinces - in particular, I think, the one that comes to mind would be the lobster suppers like you see in Prince Edward Island, that we do not have in many of our rural communities that have good tourism infrastructure now and there isn't a place for tourists to come and appreciate the old-fashioned (inaudible), the music heritage, the storytelling heritage, and our food heritage.

We are working with communities to put standards in place to develop Community Times. We will work with communities to do that, to put standards in place, and that can be done even through private business, if they want to do it in a profit-making way, or by community groups who wish to put it in place and use it as a fund-raiser.

Most of the programs that will happen through Soiree '99, very few of them will receive additional funding over and above designations, pageantry items, and that type of assistance.

I think the community of Gambo will receive some because they will be opening their Smallwood Interpretation Centre; because, of course, the Father of Confederation for our Province comes from that area. What are a few of the other major events I could mention?

There will be a marketing tour, a national tour, that will go to about six major cities in Canada in February of next year promoting our music, and just promoting the Province in general, taking in our music and pageantry and food. Then in the summertime there will be a provincial tour. That will be, I think, the biggest advantage to communities who already put off major festivals like the salmon festival. We will be able to offer them a part of the provincial tour. We will try and slot this provincial tour that we will be putting off into all of the major events around the Province as much as we can. It will occur all throughout July and August, so that will enhance all of the major festivals and community events in the Province.

MS THISTLE: Minister, is your department soliciting participation from all communities throughout the Province for this celebration, like you did with the Cabot year?

MS KELLY: Yes, we are. Communities will write us and tell us what they are (inaudible) and we will participate with them in the way that if we can - of course, the provincial tour will be just one provincial tour; so if there are six festivals on a Friday night, the provincial tour will only be able to go into one of those. So we will be choosing the major already well-established festivals and events that are occurring.

I should point out that we were very surprised, as you were, of how many 50th anniversaries are occurring next year. Of course, when you look back, many of the service clubs and all of the other 50th anniversaries came about because in the year we joined Canada many of the groups in other parts of Canada extended their hand to our Province to form local clubs and associations and that. I was surprised at how many of them took the rest of the country up on it immediately, so there are a lot of 50th anniversaries next year.

MS THISTLE: I would say there is a big market there for someone who is into plaque making and so on for the 50th for next year.

MS KELLY: Yes.

MS THISTLE: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Thistle.

Good morning, Mr. Osborne. Would you like to ask a few questions?

MR. T. OSBORNE: Sure, I have just a couple of brief questions.

Good morning, Minister.

MS KELLY: Good morning.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Last year during the Cabot celebrations there were communities that did extremely well and others that did not do quite so good because of those celebrations. Even some of the communities that did extremely well during special events found that after those events were over there was a decline in what they would consider their normal rate of visitorship and usage of restaurants, hotels, and that type of thing. Are you doing anything for the upcoming celebrations to curtail what happened during the Cabot celebrations?

MS KELLY: Yes, we are, to a degree. Now sometimes that is very uncontrollable. Some of it even last year was related to weather. If you look at July month, the weather was not very good so a lot of the parks did not do as well as they normally would, but in August when the weather was fine they did quite well.

Then, other communities felt that because the Cabot celebrations were on and there was so much enhanced marketing occurring last year that they did not need to do any themselves. Some of them learned a lesson the very hard way, that even when there are major celebrations on it is important to continue with the usual amount of marketing that they would do every year.

Then, of course, many of the events that happened last year were first-time events - the first time this Province had ever attempted to do such a large scale celebration. In many ways the visitation of the Matthew was more successful than anyone ever dreamed it could be, and many people followed the Matthew around the Province. So what you have highlighted as a concern, that people had huge increases in visitation and then after the major events occurred it was lower, is certainly true.

As we plan upcoming celebrations, in particular Soiree next year, we are looking at putting in place - I am not sure if you were here when I described a theme called Community Times, that we will assist communities in helping them put standards in place to host old-fashion concerts and community suppers and that, so it is done once a week all around the region so that it will keep tourists in an area.

The other thing I forgot to describe when I was previously discussing next year is that we are looking at a program called Bergs, Birds and Whales. What we are going to do is put in place programs that will get people out into regions in particular that have natural scenic attractions, and certainly areas where you can see icebergs and whales, where there are tour boat operations or where you can see them from land.

I think that Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador and the Bed and Breakfast Association all recognize that while there were many, many benefits to Cabot celebrations last year, there are also lessons to be learned. In particular, I think when we encourage so many thousands of expatriate Newfoundlanders to come home, you have to realize that when people have company in their house they are not off doing their own vacations in areas like they normally would be, so there are pro and cons to that also.

We have to now study and do research on: Is it really a good thing to plan, in any one given year, to encourage tens of thousands of Newfoundlanders to come home and stay for the summer? Because, while there is increased visitation and they all spend money, it also means that our own local residents - because 70 per cent of our tourism is in-province; it is our own residents travelling a lot in the summertime.

We did learn some lessons, and we are looking at ways to rectify it with future celebrations.

MR. T. OSBORNE: The 1-800 number that has been put in place, I guess just over a year ago, to bring together the hotel operators and different tourism operators and that type of thing, I commend you for your involvement in getting that up and running. Is that going to be promoted more heavily this year, and in following years, to ensure that out-of-province tourists have access to that number and have ready access to different tourist operators and accommodations and so on?

MS KELLY: It is one of the major programs that we are doing in the upcoming year. I just announced several weeks ago that this year we are offering every (inaudible) accommodation in the Province that has a fax machine - because you need a fax machine in your establishment to avail of it - we will offer them a free one-time sign-up to the TDMS, the Tourism Destination Management System, so that they can determine this year if there is increased business in it for them; or would they rather, like some of them are doing, have their own 1-800 numbers.

I think if we are to offer one-stop service this will be very important, that when tourists call our 1-800 number they are extremely pleased to not just get information and to say, `Well, we will send you out our travel guide'. Now we will send you out the travel guide and we will do a follow-up and find out, after you receive the travel guide: Are you coming? Can we make the reservations? Where would you like them made?

In years to come we hope that every tourism industry business in this Province - parks, whale watching tours, everything - will be on the TDMS. Of course it will take about a decade, I think, before all of that is fully developed, but we hope to have one of the best, if not the best, in the country developed in the upcoming years. We are certainly well under way now.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Just a couple of other quick questions and I will let you off the hook.

I know Nova Scotia, through reports on a meeting and so on, have cashed in big time on the Titanic frenzy. Some of their operators are booked to capacity for the upcoming tourism year already. Some people say they have more to offer in regards to the Titanic than we do. Are we as a Province, or is your department, doing anything to attract tourism through the benefits, I guess, of the Titanic legacy and what has happened there, and our connection, as a Province, to the Titanic?

MS KELLY: We certainly are. I would anticipate, actually, that we will maybe even do better than Nova Scotia. I think it was in February month that we put a press advisory out on the worldwide press service and we had 2,000 inquiries back. We have been pursuing this angle a lot. In particular our (inaudible) tours have been. We have been working somewhat - some of our tour operators have - with Nova Scotia. We have certainly, in all of my speeches last week in Toronto, emphasized icebergs as much as possible, and there is an intense amount of interest.

The Newfoundland Museum have put in place a small Titanic exhibit, because we just have very few artifacts from the Titanic; but those that we have - we have certainly put the exhibit in place and advertised it as much as we possibly can. There has been a huge amount of interest, and we make the point that there is nowhere else in North America where you can see Titanic-size icebergs from land. There is no doubt that it will be a big attraction in years to come.

Also, it is a very expensive tour. I think it would cost $35,000 to got into a small semi-submersible to go down to see the Titanic. All of that, I understand, the people who are doing this in the upcoming year, will be doing it from Newfoundland. There will be a fair amount of Titanic activity here, I think, this year.

MR. T. OSBORNE: What type of budget has the Province put in place to promote Titanic tourism?

MS KELLY: We have not put a specific Titanic budget in place. We are using our regular tourism marketing budget. Very luckily for us, the main icons that we choose now to promote this Province are whales, icebergs and birds, so we already have all of it in place.

While I was in Toronto last week, at the beginning of my speech - we have a wonderful new video; it is whales to the tune of Oh Canada. It shows all of Newfoundland's coastline, and the major part of that video is icebergs. Of course I theme all of my speeches, we theme our TV ads and things around that idea. It is very lucky for us that the iceberg was already greatly profiled. It is our biggest icon this year for tourism.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I have another question regarding the Titanic. The wireless messages that were sent back and forth and picked up by the station in Cape Race are now in the possession of somebody in Nova Scotia, I think a museum in Nova Scotia. Does this Province have any legal claim to those documents? After all, they were picked up by the station in Cape Race. Has your department done anything to -

MS KELLY: I have not been asked that question before, actually, but I can certainly check. I know that we had copies; but, Liz, you may be able to comment on this.

MR. T. OSBORNE: The original documents, I believe, are in Nova Scotia. My feeling is, I don't know what legal ground we have, but they probably rightfully belong to this Province and should be here to promote tourism and maybe added to the exhibit that the Newfoundland Museum has.

MS BATSTONE: We have made some initial inquiries about that but we would be on very tenuous legal grounds to try to reclaim it, mainly because at the time the notes were made by the individual, and it was back at a time when the kind of legislation about documents, who owns what and what is personal notes as opposed to official records and so on, was a very fuzzy line. So the notes in particular that are most referenced are the ones that this man made himself as opposed to actual reports that would have been filed and placed in government hands.

So there is a very fuzzy line there and obviously, for a lot of different reasons, you have to tread very carefully. Some sort of a big PR hassle over reclaiming documents - you would have to have pretty good legal grounds. It is being looked into, but right now it looks pretty much as if these were personal notes of his rather than official report documents. He moved from Newfoundland a long time ago, and when he died that was among his personal possessions, so his family donated them to the museum in Nova Scotia.

MS KELLY: I think it is safe to say that we have the best artifacts of all, the icebergs. There is just no doubt that is what people are tensely interested in, when they see the huge icebergs. To us who see them almost on a daily basis throughout the summer months we take them for granted, but there is certainly an intense interest in them this year that we intend to capitalize on.

MR. T. OSBORNE: One more question in general. Beyond the Soiree events next year, and looking forward to the Viking events, what plans and what have you put in place at this point? What are you working toward regarding the Viking celebrations?

MS KELLY: Well, several main things: working very closely with the VTTA, the Viking Trail Tourism Association; have already met with people both in Iceland and Norway to look at some partnerships there and met some businesses in Norway who are doing business in Newfoundland who are interested in getting involved in corporate sponsorships.

The main thing we are working on right now is a major Viking exhibit. There will be a Level I exhibit and a Level II exhibit that Liz is working on, and Penny Houlden, with the Smithsonian Institute, the Canadian Museum of Civilization, the Nordic Council and the Scandinavian counties put together this exhibit. The Level I will travel through major cities in the world but it will not have the capability of coming here because we would not have the type of facility you would need to host it.

The Level II exhibit - we will also work with these three agencies: the Smithsonian Institute, the Canadian Museum of Civilization, and the Nordic Council - will come to Newfoundland. It will actually be put together in Newfoundland. Our Newfoundland Museum is leading the way for this major (inaudible). Then, after it exhibits in Newfoundland in the year 2000, it is hoped that this exhibit will be put together in such a way that it will lead people to the Northern Peninsula, to L'Anse-au-Meadows. After it is finished here in the year 2000, then it can go to other smaller cities of the world; but, of course, that will be a major attraction for Newfoundland, a major marketing tool for Newfoundland.

Over and above that, the master plan is now being put together for, in particular, things like a Viking reenactment - a ship that will leave Greenland and travel to Newfoundland that year. Then, most of the other details we are not prepared yet to put forward because they are in the too preliminary and planning process.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Actually, I thought of another question. The City of St. John's, I know, has been investing money in trying to attract cruise ships to the port of St. John's. I know you have been active as well. Can you give us an update on what advances you have made in attracting international cruise lines to adopt Newfoundland as part of their itinerary?

MS KELLY: We have several that are coming this year actually. A huge one, I forget, is (inaudible)### the name of it? Is it out of Norway? It will be the first year. We are also putting a cruise authority in place. That will be done through the Legislature. I am not sure if it will be done in this sitting or in the fall sitting.

The other thing that we are looking at and working closely with is in St. Pierre. St. Pierre is building, at this time, a small cruise ship for 100 passengers, which I think will be of great advantage to Newfoundland. We are working very closely with them. That will sail from St. John's along the South Coast, stop in St. Pierre, and on along the South Coast and probably to Halifax for a part of the year. Then another part of the year they will be able to go up north to the Labrador Coast, but of course that season is much shorter there. The planning is all in place for that now. I have great hopes actually that this will be a business that in the upcoming decade we will see great growth in, as we have seen in the past fifty years in the Alaska area, that the cruise operators who are coming to the Province do see the incredible potential.

Newfoundland now, in particular since last year, is much better known throughout the world, and people are viewing us as an exotic location. There is a higher degree of interest, but it does take years to develop this industry. One of the biggest problems that we have is that if you are going to home port cruise ships here, we do not have the number of hotel rooms you need for cruise ships that take 3,000 people. You just need them for one night usually as they all fly in over night and you change passengers. It is something the whole Province will have a difficulty with. I am really pleased we are on the itinerary of some major cruise lines, and that some smaller cruise lines will home port here in the upcoming years.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Something you and I have worked together on to some degree is the Fort Amherst site. I am not sure if you are aware that the rotary club has taken that on. They are putting some seed money into that to develop a cost analysis of what types of money would be required to upgrade that facility. Is there any funding or are there any programs available now through your department to assist them in putting that plan in place and perhaps moving forward with some restoration of the project?

MS KELLY: I think the plan would have to be devised first in order to know what sort of work would be anticipated to be done there. There are no programs that I can say to you outright, but through the Economic Renewal Agreement there are different programs. In my department mostly the funding initiatives are not in place. They are done through the Department of Development and Rural Renewal, but of course would be referred to my department before funding would become available for analysis and for our opinion.

MR. T. OSBORNE: So probably, rightfully, direct them through the Department of Development and Rural Renewal first?

MS KELLY: To a degree for funding, but I think before that it would be appropriate to have them meet with officials in my department to see which way is best to go about spending what money they have. Because I think that people like Mike Clair in my department would be very interested.

MS BATSTONE: We have actually had meetings with (inaudible).

MS KELLY: Have you? It has already occurred, it is in the process.

MS BATSTONE: It is an ongoing liaison. Unfortunately we do not have a program in the department to be able to assist in grants and that sort of way. We try to work very closely with projects like that in terms of available expertise that has been built up in the past and advice and assistance in being able to access, particularly community groups like a rotary group, that has the ability to be able to access funding programs that are not confined to the provincial government. Between that kind of liaison we have been able to do a fair amount. I do not have a recent update, but I know Mike and our historic sites people have been working with that committee to try to do our best under limited circumstances to assist, because it is a good project.

MR. T. OSBORNE: It is, yes. Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Osborne.

Mr Reid.

MR. G. REID: I will pass.

CHAIR: Mr. Shelley.

MR. SHELLEY: First of all, I apologize for being late. I will not go over what has been said. I'm sure my colleagues have brought up a few estimates questions. Instead of repeating any of those I will (inaudible) -

MS KELLY: Mr. Fitzgerald did a fine job.

MR. SHELLEY: What I will do is just stick with a couple of things. If I am repeating something they have already said you can just let me know. That is why I just try to limit (inaudible). Talking about icebergs, by the way, I just came from Westport on the weekend, and as soon as I drove down to Westport there was a iceberg 100 feet offshore and about 10 stories high. Huge. Right on the point. What a picture it would be.

You talk about the icebergs, well, myself and the Member from Twillingate & Fogo can tell you that that area right there, in by Botwood and so on, that is the turn of the Labrador current. As I always say, and it is a little slogan by the way, if somebody wants to use it for marketing, it is the busiest corner on iceberg alley. Because that is what it is. It come down like that, and the icebergs pack up in there, especially in White Bay, in around Twillingate and that area.

Tom was just mentioning about the Titanic this year and the uses of boat tours and everything. I will let it be know that a friend of mine and another partner of mine just got a boat tour last year. He is working with the whale watching and boat tours in my area. There are not very many in my area, as you probably know. I think there are only two in the whole area. I would like to see it (inaudible). The name of the place is Iceberg Alley Adventures, actually (inaudible). There are always icebergs (inaudible).

MR. BARRETT: There are five icebergs off the Narrows here.

MR. SHELLEY: Is there one there now?

MR. BARRETT: There are five off the Narrows here.

MR. SHELLEY: Is there? You get the end of them, yes.

MS KELLY: Before I went to Toronto last week I had a call from the Canadian Ice Patrol to say that there were 500 icebergs floating down off Labrador now approaching the Northern Peninsula. It looks like we are going to really be in luck this year. A lot of people thought that because we had a mild winter, and not much ice offshore, we would not have many icebergs, but maybe the opposite is going to happen.

CHAIR: Times have changed. There was a time when we would consider that unlucky.

MS KELLY: Yes, that is right.

MR. SHELLEY: It is a funny thing you said that, because my question, leading into all of this, is: Does the Province do anything in monitoring what we are going to see coming along? Because for boat tour operators and so on, it is pretty hard to leave your wharf and go out and find out if you have to go right or left of your harbour to find an iceberg. You can get reports pretty easily from an aerial survey and so on about icebergs.

MS KELLY: That is exactly right. Most of the iceberg tour operators already have developed the liaisons with the Ice Patrol to let them know exactly where they are.

MR. SHELLEY: So you can do that. That is a good idea. Anyway, I think that is coming on. The second thing I was going to ask you is this. I heard this Japanese lady speak this morning on CBC. What is her name? I keep forgetting.

MS KELLY: Niki Ishi Wata.

MR. SHELLEY: She talked about the Japanese, that there may be a bigger influx than usual even this year because of the icebergs coming in. Is there?

MS KELLY: It is certainly an item of interest to them. Last year, because the Province was so full - the promotion that was usually done - we did not have as many Japanese tourists who came through because we simply could not accommodate them. My understanding from Ms Ishi Wata is that the numbers will be significantly up this year, and she feels there is a very good future there.

One of the things though we have to do in this Province to cater to the Japanese market, a discriminating market, is that we have to have the types of accommodations, facilities and services they require. Of course, more and more each year now, either with new facility development or upgrading, we are finding that we do have the type of facilities that are required for this discriminating market.

MR. SHELLEY: Is she helping you with that market? This is all part of what I am just asking about.

MS KELLY: Yes, we work very closely with her.

MR. SHELLEY: Because she would know what the Japanese are looking for. Is she the liaison to the Japanese tourism district?

MS KELLY: She works very closely with us, and she also works very closely with the bed and breakfast operators and with Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador. She is the biggest asset we have in developing our Japanese tourism market.

MR. SHELLEY: Next question. I think it is really important because more and more, like everybody else, I am sitting down with the computer dealing with onlines and Newfoundland Kitchen and you name it. How much work is being done by with your department with technology as far as onlines and promotions with Newfoundland tourism? Have you a program in place, are you doing a master plan?

MS KELLY: We are doing much better that what we were, but we still have a long way to go. We want to be the best in the country, of course, with Newfoundland's abilities in the IT sector. Our major imitative, as I was pointing out before, in the IT sector is the Tourism Destination Management System, or 1-800 number. I think it was two weeks ago I announced that this year we will be giving free one-time sign-up to all roofed accommodations that have a fax machine in their facility, so that they can see the benefits of one-stop shopping when a tourist calls our 1-800 number for information.

They will also be able to book reservations and book their car. Eventually we hope they will be able to book everything: their tour boat, their tickets to go see whales on a tour boat, all of that sort of thing. It just started last year. It was a very busy year for it to start, but now I sense this year that things will work much better than what it did. Last year there were some difficulties, for instance in the Trinity area: the operator who answered had the ability to make reservations for the business that had signed up, but could only give information about the businesses that were not signed up, the information that was in the tour guide. Most of that has be rectified this year because everyone will have the ability to become a part of that service for no cost.

MR. SHELLEY: I am taking it from the international level and I am working down my questions that way. I will just try to get a few in anyway. Now I will ask more questions at the local level.

Internationally and everything you have to do things through technology, and of course we have got to promote and do marketing properly. I really do think that especially with Cabot last year we are getting more people here. Once we get them here we have to have the services. Minister, this is so true, if you are out around - and I'm sure you are aware of it - especially with the situation with the fishery and everything now, the positive thing about all that is everybody is thinking differently.

I have people coming to me now - and I am sure it is like it in a lot of other areas - who have an idea for tourism. We have something here people should see. For example, two fishermen have an idea. One guy is from Snooks Arm, one is from Seal Cove. Snooks Arm is a small community, a beautiful little place. Betts Cove - nobody lives there anymore - on the Baie Verte Peninsula was an old mining place, and a whaling site at one time. The cobblestone streets are still there. There is all kinds of stuff. These guys want to go in there and refurbish the place like an old town. It is a real good idea for that type of promotion of small towns. What help can you give to people like that who have those ideas?

MS KELLY: My first suggestion would be that they should work with the regional tourism association and with the zonal board to see if it is a priority, and have them also look to see if it is worthy of support; and then through contacting my department. Mostly out in the area I think you described it would be Terry Fudge, who is the regional tourism development officer out there, to work with him. Then of course as it proceeds to the stage that you need funding, it would be done through the Department of Development and Rural Renewal. I assume through the SRDA agreement, although most of the funds in the SRDA agreement are gone, and we need to be negotiating a new agreement. I have the feeling that as we proceed now with post-TAGS initiative that if there are any community development funds in the post-TAGS agreement, these types of good ideas might be fundable under those. They of course would all have to be assessed through my department. Mostly I do not have the funding sources in my department but we provide the analysis to `D2R2.'

MR. SHELLEY: That would be a good idea to get some of those funds that way. Now I am going to bring up this point to you - it is sort of overlapping into your department - about signage on the highway. I have had a lot of complaints about it. I meant to bring it with me, I was hoping, but I just came right on direct into here. It is something like if you are so many kilometres off the Trans-Canada you cannot put a sign on the Trans-Canada. I do not know if you are fully aware of that. I think it is 15 kilometres if I am not mistaken.

MS KELLY: Seventy-five kilometres, I think.

MR. SHELLEY: Seventy five kilometres from the Trans-Canada?

MS KELLY: Yes. The main area that is a problem I think is in your area, and also along the Trans-Canada Highway. People who have bed-and-breakfasts, for instance, in Burgeo and Harbour Breton. We are looking at that now with the Department of Government Services and Lands and also with the Department of Works, Services and Transportation to see if it is reasonable. Because there are certain areas of the Province that you need to know before you go down that road how far away accommodations are. It is something that is being actively considered right now.

MR. SHELLEY: You look at it now. I wanted to ask that question, because the more I listen to the people who have a concern the more discriminatory it seems to me. For example, I have a fellow in the Green Bay area with a fish-out pond who did a lot of work, got it developed and so on, but because he is a certain distance from the Trans-Canada nobody knows he is down there. He cannot put a sign up in any way. A bed-and-breakfast is another one. I think it is a real problem. I am glad to hear you are working on it. Do you know what time it is during the summer we are going to (inaudible)?

MS KELLY: One of the things we hope in particular we will work with regional tourism associations on is to have plaza drive-offs when we come to, say, the Baie Verte intersection, the Springdale intersection, the South Coast intersection, so that anyone considering going down into those areas can do the drive-off. There will be signage plazas there that will indicate all of the services in that area. That is one of the ideas that the regional tourism association and the zonal boards are very interested in seeing put in place. Of course, these are fairly expensive operations, but I know the Viking Trail Tourism Association has probably have done more work on that idea than anyone in the Province.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes. That is a real good idea, because they can really notice that. Like I said, it is all tied into signage and everything. Just to throw something in with that, I am sure what you just said (inaudible) Bonavista and driving on down to Burgeo, they have not got a chance of getting recognized. They are the ones that are really struggling. Let's face it, the further you are from the Trans-Canada the harder it is for tourism.

MS KELLY: That is right.

MR. SHELLEY: They go along that trail and stay there. Another thing I will just tie in - and you can comment if you like - on signage, and I know that this is with the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, it is under them, is this. When you leave St. John's and it says: You are coming to Grand Falls or you are coming to Clarenville, from Grand Falls to Deer Lake you would not know but we do not have a province.

I am not saying that Baie Verte or Springdale is the capital of any area, but for two hours of driving, once you leave Grand Falls, there is no mention that there is a Springdale turn-off which has twenty-something communities, Baie Verte which has twenty-one communities. Twenty-five thousand to 26,000 people in that catchment area and there is not a mention. I do not expect to see all signs coming out leading from St. John's from either side, Minister.

I brought this up before, and I would like for somebody to at least discuss it. You talk about tourism and knowing where things are. I had people up here last year - just for an example, it is a real example - relatives of my wife from New York. They landed in St. John's and they decided for the first time, after coming here for years, because we live out there, to come visit Baie Verte. They started to drive. They said: We drive all over the place down there, we shouldn't have a problem. They were really disappointed. They had to slow down and take out the maps again.

People will do that, but at the same time there should be some indication at the Springdale junction, maybe after Grand Falls, or at the Baie Verte junction, or coming from the other side. That whole section of Springdale-Baie Verte is not on the road sign anywhere until you get to the exact turn-off. I would just like to mention it.

MS KELLY: (Inaudible) be noted. Those problems are being advanced all over the Province, and they are one of the reasons we want to work closely with the regional tourism associations. Because they can give us the best advice about where we need to improve signage.

Another one of the difficulties is the cost of signage also. I know that a lot of signage has been developed which we do not have the funds at the moment to put up. I am working with the Department of Works, Services and Transportation on that so that this summer we can get at least what signs have been developed over the winter months up as promptly as we can.

MR. SHELLEY: Even a suggestion, by the way. I do not expect to see Baie Verte to (inaudible) Springdale, but their Dorset Trail now, of course, for the Baie Verte Peninsula, twenty-one communities. Even if after Grand Falls, somewhere in that area, the Dorset Trail, like the Bonavista highway or the Burgeo highway, whatever they are called - I know there are trail names on them - you can even use those. At least it is some indication when you are driving.

Some member mentioned to me a couple of years ago: You do not know your way to your district. I said: I know my way to St. John's, and I see signs for that ten times before I get here. That doesn't make any sense. I think it is a pretty practical thing that should be looked at. Why not put signs up? They help everybody who is developing tourism plans wherever.

Here is another thing I was going to mention to you. There was a golf course study a two or maybe three years ago now. What has happened to that? Because I am still a firm believer in them, because I am a golfer I guess too, but I do not know a golf course around this Island that is not full and growing all the time. There are so many beautiful places. I did read that study a while back but I have not seen it for a while now. I am just wondering what happened with developing golf courses around the Province. If somebody is interested in any area, where do they go? Who do they discuss it with in your department? Who is taking care of that?

MS KELLY: The sport and recreation division. Sandy Hickman and Vic Janes would be the main people to talk about the idea, but also the tourism development officer in whatever region you might be referring to.

We are proceeding with the study. We have worked very closely with ACOA over the last two years, trying to get them to agree that Newfoundland does have a bright future when it comes to the development of golf courses. We finally seem to be making some headway. We hope that in the upcoming months, actually, we will be making some announcements about future developments of some of the nine-hole golf courses that are already in place.

We have a great deal of interest, actually, and a lot of new developments happening, in particular in the Terra Nova area and here in the city, that are strictly private operations that are going very well. In the Codroy Valley there is a new nine-hole course opening this year, but all of the plans are there for eighteen holes. That, I think, will be one of the major golf courses at the entry to the Province in the very near future.

In the Corner Brook area they have just done a study on Blow-Me-Down in the middle of Corner Brook, looking at if it can it be made into a championship golf course. I am not sure what the indications proved, I have not seen the details yet, but many people felt that while improvements could be made there is still a need for an eighteen-hole championship golf course in the Steady Brook area where you would have lots of land that could be developed. The one in the centre of Corner Brook, while it can be improved, could not be a full-scale championship golf course because the amount of land they need is just not there.

MR. SHELLEY: Isn't there a proposal for one across the river from Marble Mountain now?

MS KELLY: There are several proposals, and this summer we hope to be doing a feasibility study to look at the four or five areas that have been identified so that we can put all of the information together in the hope that the private sector will take on developing that.

Then, of course, in the Deer Lake area, we have the private sector; and in Hatchet Cove, I think, Percy, out your way, there is a nine-hole that is opening this summer.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MS KELLY: Since that study was done, it is amazing how much golf course development has actually happened.

Frenchman's Cove, of course, want to expand - theirs is at capacity - and they are worried about where they are going to do it. They would like to expand into the Provincial park but we are not very keen on that idea, and the residents in the area are not very keen on it either.

MR. SHELLEY: I am just going to finish off with two or three local things; I am sure everybody brought some local ones up. The first one I will mention - I know it is sort of (inaudible) into your district - is the Copper Creek ski facility in Baie Verte. Of course, you are quite aware of what is happening there. The strangest thing, and nobody can answer this, of course, is the weather. It has been strange in the Baie Verte area for years and years and it is getting stranger all the time; you never know what it will be like again next year.

In any event, I just want to make this point on Copper Creek. I still say - and I am certainly strictly bias on this one - I still think it is one of the most viable ski facilities in the Province. I am just talking about for the size of it; it is very compact. It was built by the people, as you know. I was there when they started that, when they actually cut the hill open themselves and did a lot of things that cut down the cost a lot.

This year I have a little report from the twenty-five ski days they had in. They had cool weather, just a little bit on the ground, but, of course, they did not have enough to ski. They only had twenty-five days - this is just a preliminary report - but they have broken even or better, even with that many days in, not counting their back debt with D₂R₂, which is over $200,000. They paid off all their debts because they had gone beyond, because of the season and everything, the weather conditions and the fund-raising and auctions. They do all of that stuff, and the town really supports it.

Minister, I tell you, in that little town of a couple of thousand people, on that Peninsula, those twenty to twenty-five jobs over there - and besides the jobs, which is the tangible thing you see, when that hill is open and people are skiing, there are people in and out of there all of the time. The gas stations are full, the hotels are full, and just the whole (inaudible) when it is open. When it starts to rain and close down for the summer, you see the big difference; you see the whole town changing.

They had 11,000 visitors the first year they opened, right? Even the people from Marble Mountain come out there and they say: We ski in there but we come out for a difference. It is a great mountain, and there are a lot of improvements that can be done there.

I said I would raise it with you and, of course, the other minister, Mr. Tulk, later on when I talk to him. Copper Creek are basically saying that they have had a tough year but have still done okay. Of course, snow making is going to be a big issue - not full scale. We are not talking about Marble Mountain, or anything to that extent, but they have some plans and a proposal gone in there - a small amount of snow making, because they usually get their base and the weather stays cool.

For example - and it is in this report - Christmas holidays is one-third of the revenue for the year, because people are in the mood at that time and they want to go skiing and so on. If there was a snow maker there in November, they could have been open on the first of December with a small snow-scale effort. They are going to be looking for that, and with what they have seen in the last two or three years with the weather and everything else, they are going to be looking for support for snow making for the coming year. I think their proposal is already (inaudible) taking to you. I just wanted to raise that because I said I would.

I am sure you are very familiar with the Green Bay Tourism Association - they are very active - and the Alexander Murray Trail situation out there. Have you been discussing any of that with those people out there lately; what is happening with the Alexander Murray Trail? Do you have a proposal in to do some things?

MS KELLY: Is that the trail that the two gentlemen, last year at the 100th Anniversary, I guess, in Springdale, took the old trail - I think it was two teachers -

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MS KELLY: I just remember, actually, something coming through the department about it in the last couple of weeks, and sending (inaudible) for a review, Bob Stamp. It may be that they have applied for funding through the SRDA and they were asking our opinion. I would have to get an update for you.

MR. SHELLEY: Could you get an update for me?

MS KELLY: I simply do not know where it is right now.

MR. SHELLEY: Well, that is why I brought it up.

MS KELLY: We have hundreds of trails being developed in the Province.

MR. SHELLEY: I know you do. These people are doing some real good work out there. I was just looking for an update of what is happening with that.

The second one, and the last one, is Fleur de Lys, the Dorset Eskimo site out there. There is big potential out there for that one. I do not know if you are aware, but a report just came back from the professors who took some wood from ruins and stuff down there and found out that it was dated back to 1624, I think. So the potential -

MS KELLY: (Inaudible) last year, actually, for that one. Let me see; we have $200,000 estimated to be spent on the Dorset Trail site within the next year, and that is the final lot of funding through the ERA. I think in total the amount is $500,000 that is being spent at that site.

MR. SHELLEY: So the final amount is to be spent this year?

MS KELLY: Yes, $200,000 this year.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay.

One last question now and it is back to recreation as a whole, I guess, sports governing bodies - Basketball Newfoundland, soccer, softball and so on - their funding and how is it holding. What is the outlook for the sport governing bodies in maintaining their funding and so on?

MS KELLY: I am hoping we will be able to maintain it properly. Actually, the department is just going through now the revised budgets and that. The main thing that I am doing in that area right now... It was about eight weeks ago or longer that we brought the High School Federation, Sport Newfoundland and Labrador, and the Newfoundland and Labrador Parks and Recreation Association, the PRA, together to ask them about looking at having an arm's length agency; that they would all come together and we would look at doing sport and recreation development differently in the Province, and look at some of the models in the other provinces, and they have agreed to do that.

Over the upcoming year - Sport Newfoundland and Labrador just finished doing a strategic plan, so they are very interested in seeing how this plan would fit into initiatives with the other agencies. I am hoping that we will be bringing them together now again in the upcoming six weeks to see - because each of them would go back to their agencies and seek opinions. We will see where that goes now in the upcoming year.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay.

Thank you very much, Minister.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Shelley. Mr. Woodford?

MR. WOODFORD: I will pass, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Are there any further questions? Mr. Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: I just have a couple that I would like to ask.

Minister, going back to signage, Mr. Shelley brought up the need to improve or change the way we do things, and I totally agree with him. I think that is a wonderful idea that we talked about. If we do not put those signs directly on the highway, then maybe we can have somewhere that people can just make a little detour or whatever to find out what lies beyond. Because I am getting all kinds of calls from people in my district who run businesses, and the name of the community - not on the Trans Canada but on Route 230 leading to Bonavista. It is frustrating when they drive over the Trans Canada and see signs on the Trans Canada telling somebody that there is a particular hairdresser, or there is a particular person who develops film, or you can get two sets of eyeglasses for the price of one, but still we can't put the name of their community there, or some business as it relates to tourism. That is one thing I commend you on, and I hope it changes.

The other one I would like to ask you is concerning student employment. Will your department this year be notifying the local Members of the House of Assembly, asking for their input into hiring students? I say that not for any partisan purposes, but I remember that you did it the first year you were minister and I think it worked very well. Because it was a situation, I know, at Cape Bonavista, where we had three people, three students from the same family, who were working at Cape Bonavista lighthouse. To me that is wrong. I do not think people should be hired according to their political stripe or anything else, but I do think, with the keen interest out there in student employment, that we should be able to spread it out a little bit more and not have two or three people from the same household almost being able to be employed year after year at the same facility while others go without anything. I think the local MHA may be able to rectify some of that and have input. You could still have the final word on any you want to hire, but I think it might do away with that.

The other one is identifying tourism attractions. I think you are right there as well, where we have to get away from thinking that because we have a particular funny shaped rock, or we have a hole in the ground, that people think it is a tourist attraction. I think we have to identify places that are tourist attractions. One place in my district is the Coaker premises. There has already been some money spent there, and there is a great need for more money to be spent there in order to at least preserve the buildings before they drop down or become eyesores or firetraps. I am just wondering if your department has been looking at putting any funding through one of the federal-provincial agreements into that particular facility.

MS KELLY: The Coaker premises have been funded through the SRDA. I do not think they are ERA, but are SRDA, if I remember correctly. The fundings are getting very limited in that particular fund at this time, so until the new federal-provincial agreements are put into place... The full amount that will be needed - and we know the detailed work has been done, some fine work actually on developing the Coaker premises; there is work proceeding this year - will not all be spent this year. That is my understanding, if I remember the last time I met with Minister Tulk.

There is just many millions of dollars more of requests of that fund then there actually is money available. I do not know now, as I was saying earlier, if there is community development money and any post-TAGS (inaudible). Some of these programs that are in rural Newfoundland that we are very strongly committed to may not be able to be funded through new programs.

Getting back to student employment, a lot of it is done on a recall basis, because we put a lot of training in. We do not provide student employment for the sake of providing student employment. We provide it because we need these jobs in our various historic sites and parks. In parks this year there are very few student jobs because of the fact that we privatised twenty-one parks last year, and we are absorbing the staff from those twenty-one parks into the remaining core number of parks.

At our historic sites, last year we had a big turnover. Many of the same students who were trained last year we will rehire for the upcoming year and the year after, because we do not have the resources to constantly, every year, change the students. They become fully qualified, actually, by the end of their term many times, interpretation officers. We continue to build on that. By the time the student is into the third year they are able to be a supervisor, and then we will bring new students in. I would have to check to see what specifically happened in your area last year. I do not know if you remember that students who might have been hired, it may have been their first year there, so that in some facilities they are all recalls this year. I would have to check on each specific site that you mentioned.

MR. FITZGERALD: Is your government looking at the possibility of moving the provincial museum from its present location? Did I read that in the paper somewhere the other day?

MS KELLY: Yes. We have a big problem, and not just with accessibility but that is where the public issue has been. We are looking at the site of the old Memorial College on Parade Street. We feel it would be ideal to use as a provincial archives and museum, and of course it would be accessible. It would need somewhere between $15 million and $20 million worth of work done on it.

We have so many precious artifacts that are stored all over this city, a lot in Pleasantville, and we have very little exhibit space. There is a crying need for this, but it has been difficult addressing the funds. The Parade Street facility is empty at the moment and, of course, that would be a very historic building that the government owns that we certainly would strongly advocate would have to be kept, from the point of view that it is the original Memorial College, and also from the point of view that it is memorial to our Province's war veterans. We are actively working on that.

MR. FITZGERALD: Have you looked at the possibility of using part or all of Government House in order to house the museum as well as other things like the arts? What was the other one, the other place you were looking for?

MS KELLY: The archives, (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Have you thought about looking at Government House (inaudible)?

MS KELLY: Government House would not come close to being able to provide, and it would be very costly for us to do, because you would have yet another off-to-the-side attraction. It would cost a lot to operate and staff. It would be our preference to have the archives and the museum in one large building. Also, where the artifacts can be stored you would need environmental controls in that, and also work space for developing the exhibits, and then to have the exhibits in the very same building. It would be a big boost. We think the area that Parade Street is in would certainly be a big boost to downtown St. John's; it is still in the downtown core and would certainly revitalize that area.

CHAIR: Mr. Osborne.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Just one other question before we clue up. It is about the old General Hospital down on Forest Road. We had some correspondence back and forth on that. Was there a final decision made on being able to restore, preserve and keep that building down there?

MS KELLY: It has yet another reprieve. I think I found out several weeks ago that a group of people - Beaton Sheppard, Ruth Canning, and Garnet Kindervater - have formed a group to look at putting in a proposal for the use of those buildings. By July 1, I think they have to have it in?

MS BATSTONE: They are looking at the possibility of putting in a proposal as early as possible, because the deadline for the Health Care Corporation is July 1. There has been a year of trying to find some adaptive reuse that some developer would take on. It has been a very difficult and very trying process because these are very valuable buildings. Without a developer who can agree to put in some adaptive reuse proposal then neither the Health Care Corporation nor our department are able to undertake the building.

MR. T. OSBORNE: It would be a shame to lose those. They have significant historical value.

MS KELLY: Yes, they certainly do. I trained at that facility as a nurse many years ago. I know it well.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Now, don't go giving away your age.

MS KELLY: The Soiree '99 is not just the Province's 50th anniversary of Confederation, it is mine too.

CHAIR: Are there any further questions?

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 7.1.02, carried.

On motion, Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: The next meeting will be with the Department of Development and Rural Renewal at 7:00 p.m. Tuesday, May 12, in the House.