The Committee met at 5:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Ralph Wiseman, MHA for Topsail, substitutes for Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands.

CHAIR (Reid): Order, please!

Before we get to the Estimates of the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, we have one bit of housekeeping. The minutes of the meeting on the Fisheries Estimates on Monday, May 3, 1999, are in front of you. Can someone move that they be adopted?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: We have the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation tonight, ladies and gentlemen. What we have been doing, Minister, is allowing the minister to introduce his staff and speak for the first fifteen minutes, if you need to. Then we allow the vice-chair or the critic from the Opposition to speak for fifteen minutes. We then follow with ten minutes for each remaining member, if they so wish, and they can rotate.

Without further ado, we welcome you here tonight.

The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

MR. FUREY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I thank the members of the Committee for accommodating the time change to allow me to go and participate up at White Hills with the release of this new video from National Geographic which, by the way, was written and is narrated by Shane Mahoney, who is with the Wildlife Division of the Department of Wildlife.

On my left is Robert Thompson, who is the Deputy Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation. He has been there longer than I, so if there are real tough questions he will answer them. We also have Gerry Crocker, who is the Director of Finance and General Operations for the department.

I just have a very brief statement. The total gross expenditure of the Department this year will be $24,630,500. This represents a substantial commitment to programs in the areas of tourism, culture, heritage, parks, reserves, sport and recreation.

The department also has a separate set of activities for Labrador operations and other money which flows under the Economic Renewal Agreement.

The major new initiatives in this year's Budget include continued funding for Soiree celebrations, $1.4 million; new funding for the Viking Millennium celebrations $1.1 million; growth in the tourism marketing budget of $1.8 million; and a new commitment to historic sites restoration $600,000.

Through existing new budget, the department also looks forward this year to bringing the tourism industry to a new plateau of visitation and expenditures. Planning for the development of a new art gallery, museum and archival complex is under way. That is long overdue. Anybody who has visited the three current facilities, the museum on Duckworth Street, the Provincial Art Gallery, particularly our storage space in the Arts and Culture Centre in St. John's and the archival space at the Colonial Building, will see that this is long overdue.

It is borderline negligent to leave all of this historic material and artistic work in less than reasonable facilities, so we are moving on that and we have budgeted some money this year to start the planning and engineering for a new major complex which could be upwards of $35 million.

We have asked Mary Pratt, who is a prominent Newfoundlander and national and international artist, to chair a committee to help us with site selection. We have appointed Wayne Trask, who ran the Canada Winter Games in Corner Brook, to sit on that; Dr. Phil Warren, who did an arts report a number of years ago; Robert Thompson, my deputy, sits on that committee as well; Clyde Granter, who was a former Deputy Minister of Tourism; and Robert Jenkins, who was a former Deputy Minister of Tourism. They comprise that committee.

They are doing a fair bit of work on that and we hope to have some things to announce on that in the near future. Revitalising our approach to the Arts and Culture Centres to make them more community oriented - we are looking to do that - advancing new plans for protected areas and implementing the Labrador Winter Games Association, which will be, I think, the best Winter Games ever in the Province.

I should tell you that in 1997, with respect to tourism, and that is the central core of the department, we had an increase which was phenomenal. It was the largest increase anywhere in the country, of 22 per cent growth in one year. Coming off of Cabot, we sustained that growth of 22 per cent and added 1 per cent to it last year. We had a 23 per cent growth rate last year.

The early indications, as I mentioned in the House the other day, on the first quarter - which are usually break-even or in the negative because of the winter months and it is not the traditional tourism season - spurred on by the Canada Winter Games, the East Coast Music Awards, the Gala event, Soiree, et cetera, the first quarter statistics are absolutely mind-numbing.

Chartered flights into the Province are up 61 per cent; non-resident traffic is up well over 15 per cent. Every single indicator in the tourism portfolio has shown an increase in the first quarter in the winter, the non-traditional tourist season, although we are working on looking at ways to grow the tourist sector as well in the winter. Every single indicator is heading for a new record, so we are very pleased by that.

Some of the problems we have in terms of Tourism, Culture and Recreation are promoting it. It seems to be a good news department in many regards, but the media tends to turn a blind eye to good news. Those who have served in Cabinet before - the Member for Lewisporte and others - know that it is very difficult to get a positive story out there. Our job is marketing, and marketing is all about creating a perception. Creating that perception costs a lot of money. We spend a lot of money. Even when we do not spend money and we host various events, like we did today out here in the lobby to kick off Tourism Awareness Week, consistently, every time, VOCM shows up and sometimes NTV. I will just give you a couple of examples of where we should be celebrating our culture and celebrating our youth.

The other day I had the pleasure of being with Mr. Byrne from Cape St. Francis. There is a fifty-piece youth band down there, ages twelve to seventeen. They are absolutely first-rate, young Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who invited the press to come down, because they have been selected to play the national anthem right across the country. This group had been selected out of all the groups in the country to play the national anthem next month at a Blue Jays-Detroit Tiger game. They are going to promote the Holy Trinity Band. Nobody showed up. Nobody in the media came to celebrate these young people.

You look at other groups too. We announced the Musical Ride. It is the largest RCMP Musical Ride, the largest number of events, anywhere ever in the country. They are going to nine different places. CP has put up $1 million to help the tour. They are going to stop in nine communities and raise money for charities in every one of those communities. One media group showed up. They did not talk about it for three days later. I am not talking about showing up to photograph me, I could not care less if they photographed me, but celebrating what we are doing as a people, and celebrating what our young people are doing, and raising them up and giving them confidence and saying: What you are doing is good and we are proud of it. They have a lot of lessons to learn in the media.

We recorded that week the number of stories on both television stations, including NTV, which usually slips in a positive story from time to time. Each station had fifteen stories on for the five nights running. Every single story was negative that week. We provided them with five examples of celebrating young people in this Province. None of them carried it. I think that is shameful.

Anyway, our tourism numbers are on the right path. Our major provincial archives, museum and arts complex are on the right path. The cultural industries agreement which we are about to negotiate with Ottawa - Newfoundland had the first one, and I happened to have negotiated it six years ago. We are looking for a new cultural industries agreement. A lot of people do not realize the value our painters, poets, musicians and writers bring to the economy. It is not just creativity, it is not just innovation, it is not just works of art, but it also has an economic impact. You would be surprised to know that that agreement spun out $30 million worth of activity, a $5 million agreement over a five-year period. We are pretty proud of that. We think that is worth doing again and we are going to do that.

Mr. Chairman, with those few comments I would like to go right into the Estimates, if you wish.

CHAIR: Thank you. Before we do, I would like for the Clerk to call into the record subhead 1.1.01.

CLERK: 1.1.01. (inaudible).

CHAIR: Mr. Rideout.

MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will have a few brief remarks. The minister is right. If there is one good news department in government, Tourism, Culture and Recreation is it. It used to be the same, I would say to the minister, in other days when it was the old Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth, which I had the privilege to be minister of for a short period of time, a few months I guess before I went into fisheries.

It is a very vibrant, important and positive department. It cuts across all the broad aspects of our society. I am delighted at some of the progress. I do not mind giving government credit when credit is due, as I will be just as quick to give them a backhand smack in the side of face if I think they are doing something wrong. In the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation this government has done something positive. That is, they have dramatically, tremendously and significantly increased the amount of promotion money. We have for years been bedevilling ourselves, in my view, by nickel-and-diming ourselves in terms of not promoting what we have money-wise in this Province outside to the outside markets.

I think the minister, in quoting the statistics that he mentioned in the House yesterday and here today, is now seeing the results of that. Granted, we have had some major celebrations. We had the Canada Winter Games this year, we had the Cabot 500 last year, we have Soiree '99 this year, and we have the Viking thing coming next year. These are major generators that will attract a lot of tourism into the Province anyway, but I think the key is that you are able to sustain and still grow a little bit in a year after a major celebration like Cabot last year.

I think that is very important. I would encourage the minister that when he is fighting and arm twisting with his colleagues around the Cabinet table for major promotional money for his department that he continue to do it. Because while we are spending significant dollars on it now, I think we are starting to have significant results and it is very important.

In other areas in this department, like in culture and historic resources, again there is a lot of community support and fitness. There is still a lot of positive news and a lot of good work that the department can do around the Province. I believe a few years ago the government embarked on some kind of a program of privatizing Arts and Culture Centres. I do not know if that bit the dust, as I think it should. The minister made some reference to it. Perhaps as we get into that area of his Estimates he might be able to elaborate a bit more on where we are going with that view that was around a few years ago.

We will have some general questions or specific questions as we go down through the subheads. For openers, that is all I want to say. I do not know if any other of my colleagues on the Committee have anything they would like to add. We can go on into the individual subheads as far as I am concerned, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Mr. Collins.

MR. COLLINS: (Inaudible), Mr. Minister, in terms of tourism for the Labrador portion of the Province. It is very difficult because of the costs which are associated with accessing Labrador. When you see rates advertised in the papers here - like $99, Halifax return; $199, Toronto return - and you look at the cost, at the best of times, for an excursion rate, say from Wabush to St. John's return, you are looking at $800-plus. If you have to travel regular fare you are looking at $1,400.

It is kind of hard to compete in Labrador, to attract people into the area with the costs associated with it. Those costs do not only apply to air travel. If you look at the ferry from Lewisporte to Goose Bay return, even in spite of the high cost of airfares, it may still even be cheaper to fly than to take that ferry and pay the associated costs that go with it.

We have great potential in that area. We have great potential particularly during the winter months and in the spring of the year. I would say the spring in most regions in Labrador, from March on, particularly in the area of skidooing, sight-seeing and all these sorts of things. I am not sure what can be done with the transportation costs, but it is something that has to be worked on, sort of in the way, like I said in response to your ministerial statement yesterday, in terms of trying to develop partnering with the airlines. I know that some of that has been done in the past in promotional activities for the area.

There is a lot to offer. There is a lot of virgin territory there. I think there is a market for that. There are people who would pay big dollars if it was promoted right to come to areas that are uninhabited, and probably in some cases be the first to walk on the shoreline and all these sorts of things. There are ways I think it can be done with the right and proper promotion.

Like I say, the big deterrent right now to anybody coming to Labrador has to be the cost. There is no question about that. I think until we can address that in some way, shape or form it is probably going to restrict tourism in Labrador from what it could be. I am sure that is true as you carry on up through the Coast of Labrador, particularly the far north regions of Labrador, the fiords and all these areas, which is marvellous scenery. Again, I think until something is done in some way to address the cost of getting there, then it is probably going to be very difficult to develop tourism, particularly in certain sections of Labrador.

MR. FUREY: Just a couple of quick points, if I can just come to your points. Shall we go back and forth like this?

CHAIR: We are pretty informal.

MR. FUREY: With respect to Mr. Rideout's comments on advertising, I agree. When we doubled the budget - it is a tough one because when you sit around the Cabinet table you have health, hospitals and education. You have been there, and you know what the struggle is. It is very difficult to leverage out more money but we have doubled the marketing budget for the first time I think in fifteen years.

WITNESS: Ever (inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Maybe ever, yes. I know it incrementally went up at one point during 1985-1989 but this is the first time we have really doubled it. The impact back is quite phenomenal.

I will just give you an example. On the Cabot celebrations when we took some federal money, some provincial money and took our own marketing money and went out and started marketing and spending on Cabot, I think we spent that year $6 million. We spent it very wisely. We went to certain areas, brought in (inaudible) writers, used it to leverage up money. We have calculated now that just in the Cabot year alone we leveraged up $36 million worth of free publicity in Time magazine, National Geographic, on the American stations, Europe, et cetera. When we added it all up and factored in what we got for what we spent, we spent $6 million and got $36 million free. We are going to try to do that again in the Viking Millennium. I can talk a little bit about that if you want after.

We are doing some deals with CNN, for example, to come down on the waterfront. We are going to have the Festival Of First Light. Newfoundland and Labrador is the first place in North America to cross the threshold into the 21st century. CNN is going to do what they are calling Beacons Of Light. We are the first place to light up at the dawn of the new millennium. It happens right here in Newfoundland. They are going to come here and through technology and television move from St. John's around the world as the dawn happens. That is going to get us magnificent free publicity with hundreds of millions of people watching. We are talking Times Square. There is a whole range of other things that are happening there to leverage our money our limited money in the Viking Millennium.

Just let me switch gears back to the Arts and Culture Centres. You are right. During the periods of restraint when there were significant cutbacks across departments Arts and Culture Centres, training centres, et cetera, were looked at to privatize them. We did not have much success. The closest we came was in Stephenville and the deal started to get a bit too rich for the government's blood. They wanted the building refurbished, the roof repaired, they wanted an ongoing subsidy for five or six years, et cetera. So we have come to the conclusion that you cannot privatize the Arts and Culture Centres and I have no intentions of privatizing it.

I want them, however, to be community based. I would like to have community advisory boards and I would like to have the people in their communities kick open the doors and windows. It is not an elitist place, it is owned by the community. We would like the communities to advise us on what kinds of shows should be coming in there. The communities should be saying to us: Hey, we have some things. I used to teach high school theatre. I had to go in to the Arts and Culture Centre in Stephenville and pay to bring the children in for practise. Practice what? To practice the sound board, to understand the lights, to work on the theatre and understand it. We had to pay money for that.

Maybe there is a community role where the communities can pitch in and we all together can make these places work. We subsidize them very heavily, though. Don't ever kid yourself. When we bring in talents like Liona Boyd she makes money for us. When we bring in Buddy Wasisname and the Other Fellers they make money for us. When we bring in other shows that other people are asking for, we lose a lot of money. When we match what we make with what we lose we are cross-subsidizing these shows very heavily.

So we would very much like the communities to be involved. We are going to be looking at setting up community advisory boards. We are not going to privatize them. We will continue to decide and run the show and we will pay for it and we will continue to do that, but we would like the communities around these areas to become more involved. I think that is a pretty fair statement on where we are heading policy-wise.

With respect to Labrador, we focused a lot of money over the last number of years on Destination Labrador, but you hit the nail on the head, and it not just Labrador's problem, it is the problem of the whole Province. I saw it when I just had discussions with Icelandair in Reykjavik recently. It is very difficult. Transportation is the key. It has always been a detriment to us both in terms of the economy generally, whether it is moving goods and services or moving people in and out of the Province. It is a very difficult one. It is even more complex in Labrador but we really put a lot of money, effort and time into Destination Labrador: the brochures, the magnificent film footage that we did, the advertising we did. It was award-winning, incidentally, as the Member for Labrador West probably knows.

There are a couple of things that are going to really happen in Labrador, as I see it, over the next number of years. The outfitting business I think can be promoted more aggressively in Europe, in places like Germany where Lufthansa will bring chartered airlines right into Goose Bay and shuttle them around Labrador. We have to be more aggressive in that area. There are world-class salmon and world-class trophy trout in the rivers and streams and lakes of Labrador. Look at Minipi, for example, Jack Cooper's outfitting lodge up there. There is world-class rainbow trout. There is the Eagle River, and I can go on and on. It is just amazing what is happening in Labrador if we can get it opened up and correctly marketed into the money markets of people who like to come and sports fish and hunt and that kind of thing.

For Soiree '99, we are putting a big focus in Labrador. Labrador City, as you know, has its own focus for this celebration. So does Goose Bay. The Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair is having a series of celebrations around the coastal communities, as is the Member for Torngat Mountains.

There is something else that is happening in Labrador that I think is really a winner, and that is the discussions with the federal government to establish two pristine national parks: one at Torngat Mountains, which is the Ramah area, and North which will pick up that whole coastal line. It is above Hebron, right?

WITNESS: It goes right to the tip.

MR. FUREY: It goes right to the tip. Has anybody ever been north of Nain to the "Pearly Gates" and Hebron and these areas? It is just awesome. Maybe that is where this Committee should have lunch.

The other area is the Mealy Mountains which we are now trying to define. We have had discussions with the Innu and they seem to be very much on side, but we now have to define on the map what that will look like. We have frozen permitting, mining, all development in the Torngat area north of Ramah and North, and we are now looking to define the Mealy Mountains area so as to give the best possible bang for a national park but not to lock out resources. We are studying that very carefully. Those discussions are proceeding with the Government of Canada and we should be in pretty good shape, I think, in six to eight months from now on both of those national parks which I think will lend a lot of credibility to our advertising and which will appeal to eco tourists all around the world.

So there are things we can do but I'm not sure I know the magic answer on transportation. It is a devilish, terrible and vexing problem and it is not easy.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Do you want to start, Mr. Hunter?

MR. HUNTER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Mr. French.

MR. FRENCH: (Inaudible) before I get into this just to say that I would just like to say I would like to see from this department - and I've spoken on this in the House - more money probably from the tourism side to be spent in the sport side of this Province.

In 1994, and with the help of government, we hosted the world ladies softball championships in St. John's. For seven days you could not rent a car, you could not get a hotel room, you could not get a ride on any of these boat charters out of St. John's, and I took people out to Brigus. Everywhere they went they spent money. The St. John's Board of Trade estimated in 1994 - their report, and not the group that I was associated with - that that tournament left a estimated $2 million in new money in the City of St. John's and around the Avalon from hosting that one event.

I don't think we do enough. I would like to say that because I know a year ago there was another world tournament here. We had a different minister, not the minister we have now. To get a small bit of help, we actually had to go to the Premier's office. I would like to see consideration in that department for those particular things because I think we get the money back ten times over. I just want to say that.

MR. FUREY: Can I just make a point on that?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. FUREY: I think you are right. You are talking about the softball tournament that yourself and Vince Withers and others were involved in. I remember helping behind the scenes with getting some capital funding to finish the fields and stuff.

MR. FRENCH: That is right, yes.

MR. FUREY: You are right. It is the economic benefit. It does contribute to the economy. I just talked to Sports Newfoundland and Labrador. It was my first meeting this morning when I went in. They too are saying it is really important for government to try to leverage out more money wherever we can. There are a number of programs, I should tell you, that they are looking at to bring back to us to help underprivileged kids all around the Province get access to equipment and get access to sports.

You are right. It is not just about kids playing and enjoying themselves, but it impacts on the justice system, the health system and the education system, making them physically fit, giving them the facilities to go out and do things. I saw it in my own district in Port au Choix. We built a stadium three years ago, finally. I think the former minister of recreation was going to go up and announce it in 1985 but he didn't. We finally built it.

I talked to the RCMP and other people up there. The kids are off the street, they cannot wait to get into the arena. They are playing ball hockey in the summertime. There are tennis courts. We are bringing in trade shows (inaudible), the shrimp festival happens up there and in the wintertime you can't book ice. It is fascinating to see, and it is fabulous, these ancillary consequences of giving young people something to do.

AN HON. MEMBER: It is.

MR. FUREY: On the economic impact, I was just out in Airport Heights with the Member for Cape St. Francis the other day. We were looking at those facilities out there. The Snickers soccer national tournament will occur at Airport Heights this summer. Seven hundred and fifty kids and coaches from all across the nation are coming here. They will be here for a week. Snickers, the chocolate bar company, is sponsoring it. I just looked at some of the preliminary numbers of what will spin out into the economy. It is fascinating and fabulous. I just want to tell you, I agree 100 per cent.

Look at what happened in Corner Brook with the Canada Winter Games. It was awesome. The Member for Lewisporte was out there. I've never seen so many smiling and happy people, and people spending money. The economic spinoffs were just out of this world and great to see. So we are aware of that, and I want to be very helpful wherever I can in those areas.

MR. FRENCH: I would like to go to, I guess, page 161. The page is not numbered but I assume it is 161 because the next numbered page after is 163. Part way down it says, "Program Funding Summary Fiscal Year 1999-00 (Gross Expenditure)." The amount in there for Economic -

MR. FUREY: Could you give me the subhead just in case I am not on the right page?

MR. FRENCH: It is "Program Funding Summary Fiscal Year 1999-00 (Gross Expenditure)."

MR. FUREY: What is the subhead, the number?

MR. RIDEOUT: It is right on the front.

MR. FUREY: Oh, right on the front! Okay.

MR. FRENCH: The first page. It says Economic Renewal.

MR. FUREY: I have it.

MR. FRENCH: There is a vote of money there, so much for Capital, Current, and so on. I just want to know what that is all about.

MR. FUREY: It is the Economic Renewal Agreement that we structured with the Government of Canada which was, I think, about a $40 million agreement. Various departments have cut away certain blocks of that fund for various things. Did you want the specifics on what we spent it on?

MR. FRENCH: No, I'm just curious as to what we would tie in there.

MR. FUREY: It would be marketing, cultural industries, festivals, living interpretation. For example, the Ferryland Interpretation Centre out there. On the capital side, we spent $246,100 at the Colony of the Avalon which we think is a magnificent tourist draw; community museums around the Province, $160,000; Fleur de Lys, I spent $220,000 last year on I think it is the Dorset Eskimo Interpretation Centre which we are opening this summer. Those are the kinds of things - instead of just spending all provincial dollars, we snuck into the federal pot and got 70-30 dollars.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

On page 164, 1.2.02, Administrative Support, I am just curious about the heading. It says: "Appropriations provide for the financial, administrative support and human resource activities" - I am going to assume, and you can correct me, this is a misprint or something, for it continues - "for the Departments of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, Environment and Labour and Industry, Trade and Technology." Is that just a printing error?

MR. FUREY: No, there is very simple answer to that. A number of years ago when we restructured departments, rather than have an administrative and financial arm of the smaller departments we collapsed it all into one and the three of us share that service. We did not need to have our own director of finance, our own financial officers, our own chartered accountants, our own payroll people, our own human resources people, because they are smaller departments. Rather than have three sets of these divisions in each department we now have one. For example, Gerry works for all three. He is the financial director for all three. We have a human resources person who operates all three. Perhaps you saw Gerry at some of the other Estimates. That is why he would have been here.

MR. RIDEOUT: Could I follow up with my (inaudible), Bob, on that?

MR. FUREY: Yes, go ahead.

MR. RIDEOUT: Is the funding that we are providing here then, Minister, in 1.2.02, is that your department's share?

MR. FUREY: Share, yes.

MR. RIDEOUT: Okay. So there are similar provisions in other departments.

MR. CROCKER: Not entirely.

MR. RIDEOUT: No? Maybe the Director can tell us.

MR. CROCKER: The salary allocation -

CHAIR: Excuse me. Could you identify yourself (inaudible)?

MR. CROCKER: Yes, Gerry Crocker. The salary allocation is for the three departments.

MR. RIDEOUT: The salary allocation.

MR. CROCKER: I think there are two positions under Environment and Labour. There is only a systems manager and a program person. All the other salary items here are for the three departments. The other operating items are for Tourism only.

AN HON. MEMBER: Can you explain (inaudible)?

MR. CROCKER: If you look under Environment and Labour and Industry, Trade and Technology you will see administrative support (inaudible).

MR. THOMPSON: If I may. The salary component that is in here and under Gerry's administration serves all three departments but the budget for, say, Supplies under this section only pertains to Tourism. The other departments will each have a supplies budget for this function.

MR. RIDEOUT: Purchased Services, the same thing?

MR. THOMPSON: That is right.

MR. RIDEOUT: Property, Furnishings and Equipment, the same thing? This is strictly for your department.

MR. THOMPSON: That is right. Our department, in a sense, is inflated overall because we are carrying the Salaries budget for all three administration service departments.

MR. FRENCH: The rest of the breakdown and under that is all expenses of Tourism, Culture and Recreation. Okay.

Minister, on page 170, 5.l.02.10, Community Sports Facilities, it says Grants and Subsidies, $199,000. Can you tell me what organizations that would go to fund?

MR. FUREY: Yes. If you look at the budget for 1998-1999 it is $644,000, and then it goes to $604,000. The reason why that is inflated is because we made a special one-time grant of $500,000 to the Canada Winter Games. What that was used for is they had to do alterations to Marble Mountain to make provision for the 143 TSN television crew people there so that when they filmed they could actually film the back of the mountain, and we would have Marble Mountain in every shot. That is why that looks a bit inflated. It was a one-time grant.

The $199,000 is for sports facilities. For example, the Member for Ferryland talked to me yesterday about getting a couple of thousand dollars for a facility in Petty Harbour where they are building If he could get a couple of thousand dollars he tells me he could leverage it up and get so many other thousands from Human Resources, et cetera. It is really a very small and modest capital program to help various communities with ball fields or small repairs to facilities. It really should be a couple of million dollars but that is all I could get.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. I would like to go back -

MR. FUREY: That is an example, Mr. French, of Mr. Sullivan getting a couple of thousand dollars from there to leverage up $20,000 or $30,000 from Human Resources. Other members have written to me about this as well.

MR. FRENCH: I would like to go back to page 169, 4.1.01.01 at the top of the page, Provincial Parks and Natural Areas. It says Salaries were budgeted at $1,827,800. Is that for parks?

MR. FUREY: It is for parks, wilderness, and ecological reserves. WERAC comes under that, the committee that advises us on protected areas, the T'Railway. There is a whole range of things that come under that.

MR. FRENCH: Because most of our parks we do not own any more, right?

MR. FUREY: A good many of them are privatized, yes.

MR. FRENCH: I am just wondering, because it is almost $2 million.

MR. FUREY: Yes, we staff up quite a bit though during the summers, as you would probably know, in the parks that we have. How many do we have left, twenty?

MR. THOMPSON: Thirteen provincial parks and a variety of reserves (inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Protected areas and reserves and places like that.

MR. FRENCH: So this would include, say, places like Salmonier Nature Park.

MR. THOMPSON: No, that is not in our department, that is in Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, so it is, right you are.

MR. FUREY: It would include places like The Arches, which is a drive-in area of a natural volcanic rock area along the Great Northern Peninsula which we govern, maintain, look after and put some people in there to work.

MR. FRENCH: Just a question. I do not see it here anywhere. I know the Canada Winter Games were in Corner Brook. I believe the next set of games for Newfoundland and Labrador are the Summer Games, if memory serves me correct. I believe they are to be held in the City of Mount Pearl. Am I correct?

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: I just want to know, because there was some interest on the part of the City of Mount Pearl - my colleague will probably shoot me for what I am going to say -

AN HON. MEMBER: You have not said it yet.

MR. FRENCH: I am going to, though. I had the pleasure of one time of being chairman of the 1996 Newfoundland and Labrador Summer Games. I am sure all the members here feel the same, that I would not want my district to be left out of bidding where somewhere down life's road communities such as mine or the Chairman's or whoever's might want to bid for the Newfoundland and Labrador Summer Games or the Newfoundland and Labrador Winter Games. I do not think it would be fair to give them to Mount Pearl forever and a day, which is a proposal that one of their councillors, I believe, at one particular point in time was going to make to government.

Somebody in there asked me about it one time and I told them I was dead opposed to it. I just want to know if there is anything on the books that would kind of lead to one community in Newfoundland and Labrador being assigned them. Because for anybody who has ever had the opportunity of hosting them, it is a great thing, it is a tremendous thing for our own youth. A lot of the kids who participate in that somewhere down life's road get to go on to the Canada Winter Games or the Canada Summer Games. I have not been to a Canada Winter Games but I have been to the Canada Summer Games in Saskatchewan at one particular point in time. It is a tremendous thing for the kids who go from our Province. It is a tremendous thing for any of us. I was a provincial president of a sports organization and I got the opportunity to go. It was one of the greatest sporting things I think I was ever at in my life.

MR. FUREY: No, I think you are talking about the Conception Bay South games -

MR. FRENCH: In 1996 they were, yes.

MR. FUREY: - which were terrific. I have absolutely no intention of giving these games to one place. These are Newfoundland and Labrador games. They are not Mount Pearl games.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Mr. Sweeney, you would like to say a few words?

MR. SWEENEY: Just a couple of brief comments, I guess, to reinforce the Member for Lewisporte comments on what a great job you are doing for the -

MR. FUREY: Can I quote you on that?

MR. SWEENEY: I have been around for a couple of month and -

WITNESS: You are learning quickly.

MR. SWEENEY: I am learning quickly.

Minister, just the fact, I guess, that I think we all realize from the success of the past number of years in particular the real benefits that happen and occur in the various communities around the Province. When you look and see foreign licence plates, bus tours from other provinces, people getting off the buses and going into a restaurant and having meals and so on, buying the local souvenirs, all that kind of stuff helps the communities. The smaller the community, I think, the greater the benefits.

Employment being as it is, just preparing for the summer season, or the tourism season as we like to call it, creates that much more employment for us.

I would just like to keep up the good work. I think the next two years are very important and I hope that the year 2000 is not going to be a dying-off period for us.

MR. FUREY: No.

MR. SWEENEY: The other concern I might have - the one concern I really do have - is ferry rates. I think we are all cognizant of the importance of doing something with the Gulf ferry run to keep them within reasonable rates that we can all afford.

Thank you very much.

MR. FUREY: I will just make a couple of points on that. I do not know if the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair heard the hospitality president last night, who is from L'Anse au Clair, talking about the ferry trips from St. Barbe over to L'Anse au Clair - the Northern Lights. Their bus tours, I think, have tripled. One hundred and twenty bus tours are booked to go across the St. Barbe ferry to Southern Labrador.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: That is the other thing. We have to get that road fixed. The member from Labrador City talked about transportation.

The deputy just reminded me that Saga vacations out of the US, I guess, have just instituted a new program called the Road Scholar Program - road - and there are eight new departures coming into Newfoundland.

We were just notified yesterday that the Concorde is coming back to Newfoundland in two weeks' time. They will spend three days here, despite the shenanigans on the Southern Shore.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Maybe they were affected by the moon but they are coming back again. You all heard that story, I guess. Anyway, they are coming back and they spend a considerable amount of money.

I just met with the Chairman of the Board of Icelandair in Reykjavik. They had one chartered flight in here last year. Just to give you an example - I do not know if you know much about Iceland but it is a very expensive country, an extremely expensive country - they had one flight into St. John's last year for two nights. They spent $300,000 - two nights - so we are really encouraging that connection through the Viking Millennium to get more Icelandic flights in here and charters in here.

I met with a number of charter companies and other people involved in tourism in Iceland as well, so it is really picking up and it is pretty exciting.

Your last point was on Marine Atlantic. That has been a tough issue for ministers right back since they signed the Terms of Union. I am not sure they even got it right in the Terms of Union but we need to get an extra vessel on. We need new modern capacity. We need to beef up service. We need to do a whole lot of things on that system.

I agree with you, pricing is starting to get a little ticklish too, but I have committed to having a forum, and I am going to do this in the next thirty days or so, where the unions are at the table, hospitality industry is at the table, Marine Atlantic is at the table, and Tourism is at the table, my department. We really need to start talking to each other about what it is we are doing because - it is very interesting - it is not so much the strikes that impact. They are bad enough, but every time there is a threat of a strike you can see the numbers fall off. You can see the bus tours being cancelled, you can see a decline right away in this industry, and that is not fair. It is not fair to hold captive an entire industry because of geographic circumstance, because we happen, a portion of our Province, to be an island. So we really need to start that dialogue. We need to look the unions in the eye, they need to look back at us, we need to start understanding each other, and we need to come out of that forum with a plan to try to fix this and correct it.

Incidentally, I don't think Ottawa is doing half enough to beef up these ferries, to really expand capacity and to look at their - because many of these people, from the bureaucrats right up to the political level, in my judgement, see these as constitutional boats. Constitutional could easily be cattle, but they are human vessels that transport people who are spending real money. I think we have to re-educate people, refocus them on what this is all about. It is not just moving from point a to b. It is moving from point a to b with a good, clean, comfortable experience.

We have put musicians on the boats. We now have young people on from our department giving out literature, giving interpretations, talking about where to go, where to stay, helping people, but we have to do a whole lot more. Unfortunately, like many things in provincial/federal constitutional governments, we have very little control on so much of what we really want to do.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Mr. Collins, any questions?

Mr. Hunter?

MR. HUNTER: I have a couple of questions to ask you. When you mentioned the $199,000 for community sports facilities, does that include any subsidies or grants for community arenas?

MR. FUREY: No. You are looking under the capital subhead, so it is $199,000 just for capital infrastructure and capital dollars for helping to fix places that are already in place.

MR. HUNTER: Are there any subsidies or grants available to -

MR. FUREY: Not from my department. There may -

MR. HUNTER: There used to be one for - an electricity subsidy, or something like that? Is that still in effect?

MR. THOMPSON: I think now that is fully expired but we will just check. It has been reducing over a number of years as all communities were getting hooked up. We will just check now and see if there is anything left there.

MR. FUREY: I do not think there is, because if there was I would be having subsidies at Port au Choix, St. Barbe and Rocky Harbour.

MR. HUNTER: Maybe it is time to go back to some, particularly for some of the smaller communities. Not in my district now, but I know one in particular in Badger who is having a really rough time trying to survive.

MR. FUREY: They are just pointing out to me that it has dropped down now to $12,000 and it will phase out.

MR. HUNTER: It is in this year's budget, Minister?

MR. FUREY: Yes, $12,000.

MR. HUNTER: Twelve thousand dollars. Minister, also I would like to ask you a question about the outfitting potential in Labrador that you just touched on. With the potential in Newfoundland on the Island -

MR. FUREY: Can I just make a quick point? The subsidy that is left is for really remote areas. I mean, it is Nain Sportsplex, but they have limited ability to raise money. The other one is the Makkovik Rink. That is what is left.

MR. HUNTER: Minister, I am wondering if there is going to be any change in the moose allocations for outfitters on the Island this year?

MR. FUREY: The moose? Oh my.

MR. HUNTER: I believe the percentage is 12 per cent of the annual harvest.

MR. FUREY: I'm sorry?

MR. HUNTER: Pardon?

MR. FUREY: Twelve per cent of...?

MR. HUNTER: I believe. I'm not sure. Is it 12 per cent?

MR. FUREY: No. The way it works is the total allocation of moose licences is determined by the Wildlife using their science - Shane Mahoney and others, I mentioned earlier, developed a science. In fact, when I was the acting minister two years ago, we put just about $2 million in for a major study of the moose populations around the Province. We are waiting for their reports to come in this year.

If my memory serves me correctly, I think their total allocation this year is 30,000, or slightly over that, moose. The way it operates for tourism is we set aside 10 per cent of whatever the allocation Wildlife gives as a total percentage of the total allowable hunt. So in this case if it is 30,000, 10 per cent is 3,000, and 3,000 are then made available to the outfitters.

It is based on criteria: the ability to sell the licences, the amount of money you put into marketing, the state of your facilities, because we really want to bring these up to first-class facilities. I'm ashamed to say that not all of them are, but many of them are. We need to reward people who are out hustling, getting that new money in, giving a good experience, providing good lodging and clean, really well-constructed facilities in the wilderness. That is the case with moose.

We are waiting for Wildlife to give us what their science is telling them over the next few years. I have put a moratorium in place for new outfitters because I do not think we should expand, but rather take those that are now inside and enhance them and give them the ability to grow and make some money and develop the industry. If they come back and say: We have a 50,000 allocation for you we will revisit the policy, but it is not my intention to reopen that.

With respect to caribou which is in less demand, and the populations are in greater numbers, and they are very healthy numbers, we take 25 per cent of that allocation and set it aside for outfitters. I think you said, was it, 12 per cent? No, I think our number now is about 10.3 per cent or 10.4 per cent.

MR. HUNTER: There are some areas, Mr. Minister, that can identify an overpopulation of moose. I was wondering if you would consider increasing the allocation on a special basis for some of these areas. Is it possible?

MR. FUREY: Would you support me for that?

MR. HUNTER: In some areas, I would. Yes.

MR. FUREY: For residents, as you know, it does get increased automatically, but I think what you are saying -

MR. HUNTER: Yes, not for residents, for outfitters, non-residents.

MR. FUREY: You are asking me to do that for outfitters, are you?

MR. HUNTER: For some areas, overpopulated areas.

MR. FUREY: What I have to do is wait for the science to come back from the Wildlife division and say: Here is what is the state of the whole Island and Labrador is and here are the areas that may be trouble areas.

MR. HUNTER: Is there money in this budget for an aerial moose count?

MR. FUREY: No, all of that comes under Wildlife, which is in the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. HUNTER: Minister, I know with the -

MR. FUREY: I take your suggestion to increase outfitters and get more licences into their hands, and you see the economic benefits.

MR. HUNTER: Not to the existing ones. Increase the number of outfitters, yes.

MR. FUREY: The number of outfitters? You want me to bring new outfitters in.

MR. HUNTER: Yes, in some areas.

MR. FUREY: Do you agree with that? Does the Member for Lewisporte agree with that?

MR. HUNTER: Identified areas, underutilized.

MR. FUREY: I hear you. I'm teasing you. (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: Minister, with the Travel Guide, you mentioned yesterday that you did do something for the town of Grand Falls-Windsor. Did that include the Exploits Valley Tourism Association?

MR. FUREY: The mayor came in to see me and he said: When your guide came out we had produced an ad, which is a very good ad, I have to tell you. Their slogan was: Exploits Wild and Free. What happened was this. You know how the Travel Guide is divided into regions. They had asked us to put their ad, which makes sense, just before the Central Region. Through some printing error or misplacement error it was put in front of the Western section. When a traveller or tourist is coming and flips open to the first part of it they see Exploits, then they turn the page and see Gros Morne, Western Newfoundland, et cetera, and all of the amenities, maps, B&B's, restaurants, et cetera. It was an error in judgement and somebody made a mistake and it was probably honest. I simply said: What we will do is place that properly for you next year in the Central area.

MR. HUNTER: So those are the same as the concerns the Exploits Valley Tourism Association had, was it? That was the same one?

MR. FUREY: Yes. We will fix that. We will not charge them.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Rideout.

MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (Inaudible) heads and ask some specific questions if the minister is prepared.

I would like to go to Tourism, 2.1.01, on page 165 of our Estimates. I assume the doubling of the marketing budget is Purchased Services where there is $4,211,300 this year as opposed to $2,492,300 last year. Is that correct? That is a promotional spending arm, right?

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MR. RIDEOUT: Okay. Grants and Subsidies, 2.1.01.10. Last year you budgeted $1,554,000 and you ended up spending $5,181,700, a significant difference. Can you explain to us what took place there?

MR. FUREY: Yes. What we did is we booked the money and allocated it to the various groups that are going to run these shows for us. For example, the Viking Trail Tourism Association and the Viking Millennium Project. While the money is booked there and it looks like an increase we just booked it and passed it right out to that corporation. Soiree '99, for example, is booked $1.4 million there, but it is right over to the corporation for their merchandising, promotional tours and all this kind of stuff which is happening this summer.

The Labrador Winter Games is in there, $400,000; $1.5 million for the Viking celebrations which we have booked out now to VTTA; Soiree '99, $1.4 million; and there is a miscellaneous of $150,000 which would make up that total.

MR. RIDEOUT: Who is doing the promotional tourism work for the department now? What company?

MR. FUREY: Which agency of record?

MR. RIDEOUT: Yes.

MR. FUREY: Bristol Communications Inc.

MR. RIDEOUT: Okay.

Culture and Heritage, 3.1.01.05. Professional Services is increased to $51,400 this year from an actual spending of $20,600 last year. Can the minister tell us what is happening there?

MR. FUREY: I do not know exactly, but if memory serves me correctly I think that is a budget we put in place. It is provided to cover the cost of professional services in delivery of the public programming component to Newfoundland Museum. I guess what they are doing is putting in new exhibits and sponsors and that kind of thing.

MR. RIDEOUT: Purchased Services, 3.1.01.06, Minister. You are going to be spending $138,000 this fiscal year. What are you spending that on?

MR. FUREY: Pass me my note and I will give you the exact amount. Do you have it?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: It is 3.1.01.06. We have gone from $104,000 to $119,400 to $138,000.

MR. RIDEOUT: Yes.

MR. THOMPSON: Generally that would be complementary to the Professional Services for the creation of new exhibits, public programming, whatever is required in terms of that. It might be purchasing the services of an exhibit designer, or purchasing materials to make up new exhibits at our workshop down in Pleasantville, new artifacts that come available on the market, all those generic types of purchases. Why it is increasing that amount would just be normal expansion and contraction of the budget within the overall envelope.

MR. RIDEOUT: Okay.

Grants and Subsidies, 3.1.01.10. We are spending $244,200 this year. Who or what is that going to?

MR. FUREY: Is that the provincial arts council?

MR. THOMPSON: That is community museums.

MR. FUREY: Oh right, yes. You know how we have these community museums all over the Province. I have one in Cow Head, for example. We give them $1,000 operating.

MR. RIDEOUT: Okay, yes.

MR. FUREY: We spread that all over the Province.

WITNESS: There are a variety of others as well.

MR. FUREY: That is not the whole amount though. The other ones are: Signal Hill Tattoo, $30,000 here in St. John's; the LSPU Hall, $11,500; the Newfoundland Quarterly, $16,000; Them Days magazine in Labrador, $37,000; TickleAce magazine, which is a collection of Newfoundland writers, $5,000; and about $100,000 goes to local museums.

MR. RIDEOUT: So the funding for the Arts Council then I guess is in 3.1.03, is it? Is that the Grants and Subsidies, $480,300?

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MR. RIDEOUT: That goes directly to (inaudible).

MR. FUREY: It goes directly into the Arts Council. They use a portion of it for administration, but the lion's share, about 80 per cent, is then set aside for artists, writers, musicians and dancers. It is all done by peer review. In other words, it is a collection of artists who have a specialty in a field who judge which art to buy and how to invest that money.

MR. RIDEOUT: In the Museum Assistance Program, 3.1.04, we have Professional Services, .05, in the amount of $135,000. What are we doing with that money?

MR. FUREY: I mentioned earlier - and I did not get it quite right - that there are museums all around the Province that can apply to that.

MR. RIDEOUT: Right.

MR. FUREY: It is application driven?

MR. THOMPSON: Yes. This is a program that we budget for each year. The Newfoundland Museum makes application to the federal government, to the Federal Museum Assistance Program. If they are successful for the creation of new exhibits, for touring our exhibits, then we will be able to draw down from the federal government on a cost-shared basis. That is the design here.

MR. FUREY: Where is the small museum grants? Is that built into this one?

MR. THOMPSON: That would be under Grants and Subsidies, Culture and Heritage.

MR. FUREY: Okay.

MR. HUNTER: Minister, under 3.1.03., $480,300, you said that was for performing -

MR. FUREY: The Newfoundland Arts Council.

MR. HUNTER: Would that include any special grants or funding for any student studying outside the Province?

MR. FUREY: No. This is a block of money that is passed to an arm's-length corporation, which is for the artists of the Province. They take off their overhead for administration, et cetera, and then what they are left with - it is application driven then.

If I am a writer, and I want to write a book, and I write in and say, "I need $5,000. Here is my plan. Here is what I want to do.", then a peer jury is formed to determine which writers will be given what.

A lot of it goes into painting, of course, as you know.

MR. RIDEOUT: Do we still have a book publishing program?

MR. FUREY: No, we phased that out last year. You know that has been on the go since 1982.

MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, I know; it was on the go when I was there.

MR. FUREY: Every single year. It is basically for publishers. Last year we signed off on it with a letter to Clyde Rose, who was the Chair at that time, to say - Sandra Kelly did, the former minister - this is the last of it. It is a one-time hit and off you go.

That does not mean they cannot access other programs. It just means that we do not have the money in our budget to carry it. It has had a pretty good life since 1982.

MR. RIDEOUT: Oh, yes, and it has been going on for quite awhile.

Under 3.1.06, Historic Sites Development, Minister, on page 168, we have an amount of $600,000 for Alterations to Existing Facilities in Capital funding. Can you give us a breakdown of what that is?

MR. FUREY: Yes. We do not have much money. There are a lot of our historic sites that we would like to put a lot of money in but the only capital we could get was really for stuff in dire straits. There are two, essentially, that were identified by the department that really need to be done. One is the Quidi Vidi Battery. The ramparts, through erosion - there are a lot of problems down there and we are going to be putting about $100,000, if my memory serves me correctly, into that. It has to be done. Otherwise we will be losing a really valuable piece of our history.

The balance of the money has to go into the Bonavista lighthouse which is in desperate need of repairs. We want to preserve that. It is a historic site and we have to do a lot of work there.

Those are the two.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: Socialist and Tory districts.

Notice how none of this is pushed into Liberal districts. It is in the districts of Mr. Harris and Mr. Fitzgerald. I just wanted to make that point. I think Mr. Efford would have done the same.

WITNESS: I have my doubts. Some of my colleagues tell me he would. I do not know.

MR. HUNTER: Do you have on staff an archaeological specialist to deal with artifacts?

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: Is this a permanent position?

MR. FUREY: Yes, her name is Martha Drake. She is top-drawer, one of the finest, best people you will ever run into, and top-notch in her field.

MR. HUNTER: That is it. Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Rideout?

MR. RIDEOUT: I am just looking down through here now. In Capital, Park Development, 4.1.02., you are going to be purchasing services in the amount of $200,000. Can you give us a breakdown of what that is to be spent on?

MR. FUREY: Purchased Services, 4.1.01.

MR. RIDEOUT: 4.1.02.05.

MR. FUREY: That is for the hiring of small construction crews, et cetera, to go in and maintain and do some things we need done in the parks that we still have. You are thinking Notre Dame Park (inaudible).

MR. RIDEOUT: I am thinking Notre Dame Park, of course.

MR. FUREY: Duly noted.

Here are a few examples they just passed to me: electrical hook-up, park entrance improvements, trail construction, road improvements, and those kinds of things. We have duly noted Notre Dame Park.

MR. RIDEOUT: We did Grants and Subsidies, community sports facilities. My colleague did that. I think that is about the extent of the specific questions.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Ms. Jones?

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just wanted to make a couple of comments. Certainly one of them is for the benefit of the Member for Labrador West who, I guess, is not going to hear it now. One of the things I wanted to note was with regard to tourism in Labrador, Mr. Minister. One of the other things I think is noteworthy is that we have a national historic district in our Province. It is in Labrador and this year it will be commemorated as such.

The other thing has already been mentioned. We had increases last year of almost 30 per cent in the tourism statistics in my district alone. The previous year it was a 22 per cent increase in the number of tourists coming in. I want to say that tourism is fast becoming one of the major contributors to employment in my district, which is very rural area of the Province. I'm pleased when I see investments in the marketing side and more money being put into promotions for tourism in our Province. I think it is one of the industries, next to the fishery, that is a larger contributor to the rural areas of the Province.

The other thing I wanted to note, and I guess it has already been said, is that this year we have booked 120 bus tours into Labrador, which I think is remarkable. It is up from a little over eighty bus tours last year. Most of these are coming out of the New England states. In addition to those tours, we also book a number of Canadian tours from different parts of Atlantic Canada.

The other thing I wanted to note is that in tourism you will find, and it is my experience in Labrador, that you always appeal to different markets, and some markets do have a higher end than others. When you promote Labrador, you are promoting one of the last frontiers in Canada. I think that when you want to come and experience that kind of development within the country, you are willing to pay for it.

Such was the case last year. We hosted five to six different groups from the Netherlands and all of them came by chartered flights. I think that was remarkable and it speaks well of where the industry is going. I just want to commend you and the investment that you have made in Labrador through Destination Labrador and the promotions that it has brought.

The only question I have is in terms of the Labrador Straits ferry service. You would know as well as I, or probably even better than I, as the service crosses over both our districts, that the contract is up for renewal this year. Although it is a responsibility of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, I would like to see the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation have some input into the specs and the level of service that are going to be required there. I think this tendering right now could be a three- to four-year process. With the projected infrastructure developments that is going to occur there with the road -

MR. FUREY: Where?

MS JONES: Of course, where. From Red Bay to Cartwright.

MR. FUREY: I was thinking about St. Barbe.

MS JONES: I'm very pleased about that.

MR. FUREY: I was thinking of my side of the water.

MS JONES: I want to ensure that these stats are going to keep going up every year as they have been. I would like for the department to take a vested interest in that particular contract and have some input into the specs.

MR. FUREY: Thank you for your comments. Mr. Chairman, you can be sure we will. It is near and dear to my heart too. I just happen to represent that area.

MS JONES: I know it is.

MR. FUREY: For far too long, you know, you see the traffic winding around St. Barbe and there is nowhere to pull in. There are no decent facilities or washroom facilities. There is absolutely nowhere for the tourists who are waiting.

What is interesting is there is a community based group that is just doing an RV park there, just near the ferry stop. The Member for Lewisporte probably remembers this. Remember Nickerson's were going to build that plant and they had all this steel there? All that is wiped out now, and that is ready now for development of a major terminal which will hook up with the Trans-Labrador Highway coming down through Red Bay and on over to Blanc-Sablon and across. It is going to really pick up. We are watching it very closely. It is something we are concerned about. You and I probably should talk some more about it as time goes by.

MS JONES: I'm really pleased to hear that. Because you know more than I do that that is one area of the Province that has tremendous potential in this industry, and we do have to make every effort to improve the infrastructure. I know that doesn't necessarily come under Tourism but the infrastructure in those communities do have to be improved. I'm sure you will take it into consideration.

MR. FUREY: I agree 100 per cent.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you. Mr. Parsons.

MR. PARSONS: Minister, I would just like to comment. I was very pleased to hear your comments about Marine Atlantic. That is probably, without doubt, the principle issue for 80 per cent of the people in my district.

With regards to the essential service issue, there was a meeting three weeks ago here, with all the unions that were involved, as well as Hospitality Newfoundland and the Chamber of Commerce, with the Minister of Environment and Labour to deal with that issue. I can assure you that all those parties are on board in terms of wanting to resolve the issues. Your suggestion about further consultations involving recreation and transportation would certainly be most helpful as well.

I would comment as well that this is not a case of crisis management with Marine Atlantic. I happened to be chairman of the restructuring committee by the town of Port aux Basques, appointed last May. It is not a case of crisis management. I would suggest that at this time there is no management. There is a severe lack of management with Marine Atlantic. Operations are run out of North Sydney. Finance -

MR. FUREY: They just don't get it, do they?

MR. PARSONS: Finance and administration is run out of North Sydney. One hand does not know what the other is doing, and we are sitting with a lame duck president in Moncton who is waiting to go and be appointed.

We have issues of capacity, we have issues of service, and we have no president. There is nobody at the wheel. Until the federal government gets it clear that first of all we have to put somebody in charge who is prepared to make a decision, the guy sitting there now, as an interim president, has publicly stated that he is not prepared to make any decision. He made that statement in my presence and the presence of the committee in Port aux Basques last fall. He is not prepared to make any decisions with regard to the service, with regard to new vessels, because he is only an interim president.

We have a vice-president sitting in Port aux Basques, who is also an aspiring president, who has passed back to the federal government, who has cut things to the bone to the point where he, with great pleasure and glee, passed the federal government back $7 million of the subsidy this year and clapped himself on the back in doing it.

Meanwhile, we have truckers sitting on the ramp-ways in Port aux Basques and North Sydney complaining because they do not have enough vessels. This same management team have reduced the federal subsidies into the Marine Atlantic service from $82 million in 1991 to $20 million this year. They may be getting brownie points for themselves but they are doing a disservice to this Province.

In terms of tourism and where it ties in, I said in my response to the Speech from the Throne, first impressions are lasting; and that is where they get their first impressions with the service, on the Gulf service when they come that route. It is just non-existent.

MR. FUREY: Tell me something. What is the whole raison d'être for Marine Atlantic now? Why does it exist? It exists for Newfoundland.

MR. PARSONS: That is right, and solely for the benefit of Newfoundland.

MR. FUREY: You know, it really -

WITNESS: You are right.

MR. PARSONS: Until this Province, I would suggest, Mr. Minister -

MR. FUREY: It really bugs me the federal government will not get off their arses and look at Newfoundland and say: Yes, this is now a Canadian service in Newfoundland, and move all of that to Newfoundland. It makes no sense. It made no sense to run it out of Moncton. It was a political decision where Newfoundland got shafted yet again. There is example after example, after example, because we are just a poor cousin off on the Northern Continental Shelf and it really, frankly, makes me mad.

MR. PARSONS: I recently asked the Chairman of Marine Atlantic Board, Ms Cahill, what the situation was regarding the president; because, again, I think if you do not put someone at the wheel, nobody there is prepared to move. They are all in a state of flux, and just waiting.

Apparently they have not even decided upon the process yet to select a new president, let alone select a president.

MR. FUREY: Who has not decided?

MR. PARSONS: This is the information I had from her.

MR. FUREY: Who has not decided?

MR. PARSONS: The federal government.

MR. FUREY: Maybe they should get off their arses and start doing something.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: I have to tell you, he is making some very good points.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: You are absolutely right. Would you go on record on that one? I sense your frustration. We are all frustrated, and we are all in this together. We are all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, and look at the way we are treated. It is despicable. It is shocking.

MR. FRENCH: (Inaudible) on the Joseph & Clara Smallwood, there used to be seats that you could sit in and -

MR. FUREY: Recline.

MR. FRENCH: My wife is a smaller person, and she could sort of stretch out if she wanted to. What they have done now is, they have put -

MR. FUREY: Barriers.

MR. FRENCH: - barriers in, so you have to sit up if you cannot get a cabin. You have to sit up all night. I have watched people with children coming up the stairs with pillows and blankets, and they would crawl in under the stairs - there are people walking up and down those stairs the whole night - and they would sleep under these stairs.

One of these days I might have the opportunity myself to address some of the CN crowd, but they really and truly turn my stomach as to the way they treat us in this Province. There is no better example than Port aux Basques, either coming in or going out.

When you can sleep in a chair, that is fine, but when you allow children to crawl up with their mother and father under the stairs, and throw a blanket or sleeping bag over them so they can get a few hours sleep, it does not do much for our tourism.

MR. FUREY: I agree with you.

To the federal government it is an aggravation, not an industry. They give you that body language at the bureaucratic level, at the political level, at all levels. It is shameful; it is despicable. No other province would put up with it. They would not get away with it in Ontario. They would not get away with it in British Columbia or Alberta. They would not get away with it in our sister provinces across the Gulf, and they sure would not get away with it in Quebec.

MR. FRENCH: I believe the only thing that went to Port aux Basques - I may be wrong on this - was a few jobs that we probably had here in St. John's; because what they sent in from Moncton, or anywhere else on the mainland, was little or nothing. I think all they paid to us in Newfoundland and Labrador was lip service.

MR. FUREY: I cannot argue with you because I have to tell you, in my own heart of hearts, that is the truth. I think the hon. member would agree with that. They gave us a sprinkling to shut us up.

MR. PARSONS: Yes, there is no doubt, it was a political move. We did get some jobs out of Moncton, some IT jobs, and that has been very beneficial.

MR. FUREY: Are the decision-makers in Port aux Basque where they should be?

MR. PARSONS: No. The big decision-maker with regards to operations is in North Sydney.

MR. FRENCH: Try making a reservation; you have to phone Nova Scotia.

MR. FUREY: You see, that, to me is scandalous, absolutely shocking.

MR. PARSONS: The operations part is in North Sydney, and that is what controls what boats we have and when they run.

MR. FRENCH: I have just one quick question, if I might. On page 164, Minister, 1.2.02., Administrative Support, down the page to 1.2.02.06., Purchased Services, $216,300. I was just wondering what that was for.

MR. FUREY: Page 164, 1.2.03.?

MR. FRENCH: 1.2.02., Administrative Support -

MR. FUREY: Oh, yes.

MR. FRENCH: Purchased Services, 1.2.02.06., $216,300.

MR. FUREY: Go ahead, Gerry.

MR. CROCKER: That is to cover the departmental printing, and also the copier charges. There is a small amount there for protocol.

MR. FRENCH: I have one other question. It is where we started out, Program Funding Summary, Fiscal Year 1999-00, Gross Expenditure. This is where I asked my first question. It says, Recreational Services and Facilities, $2,024,400. Can you tell me what that is for? There is $199,000, Capital.

MR. FUREY: The rest of it is for the operations of the recreation division of the department, sports and recreation, and all our grants.

MR. FRENCH: All grants to government, or funding for the Canada Summer Games, would be in here?

MR. FUREY: Absolutely.

MR. FRENCH: Some of my buddies, by the way, Bob, are looking for a bit of an increase.

MR. FUREY: Yes, they told me this morning. There are a good group, by the way.

CHAIR: Is that it?

MR. FRENCH: That is it for me.

MR. RIDEOUT: I have one final question. I suppose, if there is anything at all, it would be in the historic resources museums section. Is there any program funding available to assist private museum operators out there?

MR. FUREY: I am sorry?

MR. RIDEOUT: Is there any program funding available anywhere in this department to assist private museum operators?

MR. FUREY: The programs, as I understand them -

MR. RIDEOUT: I notice for community -

MR. FUREY: I do not think so.

MR. RIDEOUT: I have a unique situation - I do not know if there is anywhere else in the Province - in a little place called Embree there is this fellow who is a bit of a fanatic, I guess, about - and maybe, Mr. Reid, I do not know if you have been down or not - he has a great collection of old Newfoundland engines. He has bought private property, spent his own money on it, but the problem is getting it properly catalogued and stuff like that. As he earns a dollar, he puts it into this. He does not charge people to come in and see it. It is there as a community resource, except it is privately owned.

I was in to see it the other day when I was out there, and it is kind of a shame that it could not be properly catalogued and put together and even marketed as an historic resource in that area. I do not know, it just happened to pop in my mind when we were talking about historic resources.

MR. FUREY: If you can send me a note on it, I will be happy to send someone from the historic division to go out and have a chat with him and see it.

MR. RIDEOUT: Okay, I would appreciate that.

We are going to be very kind to the minister. He has provided us with some excellent work tonight. We know we have a commitment of 7:00 p.m., so we are going to give the minister his salary. We are not going to try to reduce it to $1, as I saw Liberals do in this Province once when I was minister. We are going give the minister his salary and thank you very much.

MR. FUREY: Did they get you? Did they reduce your salary?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. FUREY: I heard about it, though.

CHAIR: Minister, before we call the headings, we would like to thank you for coming. Tourism is the second-largest industry in my district, behind the fishery, and it is growing by leaps and bounds. The tour boat operators, as well as the bed and breakfast operators, tell me just recently whatever we did in Ontario last year keep it up because they had a dramatic increase in tourists from Ontario last year. They did really well.

When you talked about ferry rates as well, they are trying to develop a tourist trade on Fogo and Change Islands. I know we have a freeze on the rates right now, but I would like to see a reduction in the rates to Fogo and Change Islands and the other areas of the Province that are serviced by the provincial ferries because they are too high for tourists to (inaudible).

With that, I would like to thank everybody for coming. I would like to thank you and your Committee.

MR. FUREY: Can I just have a concluding comment?

Thank you all very much for accommodating me tonight. I should tell you that I have a chance to speak in Halifax on Tuesday to 1,100 writers and tour operators from around the world. I have taken that opportunity and we are going to put on a good show for them. We have some good Newfoundland music and food. We are going to give them a good waltz.

Thank you all for coming out tonight. I appreciate it.

CHAIR: Thank you.

We are going to call the headings. Elizabeth?

CLERK: 1.1.01. through 7.1.02.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 7.1.02., carried.

On motion, Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Thank you.

On motion, Committee adjourned.