The Committee met at 7:00 p.m.

CHAIR (Reid): Order, please!

Before you, you have a copy of the minutes from the meeting we had on the Estimates for the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation. If there are no errors, or if you do not see any errors or omissions, could somebody move that they be passed?

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Mr. Minister, I would like to welcome you and your officials here tonight - the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

The procedure we follow here, Minister, is that usually we give the minister - usually, I say - fifteen minutes for his opening remarks; but I do not expect you to use all of those, considering we are thirteen minutes late. Then we pass it over to the Vice-Chair of the Committee, or your critic, for an equivalent amount of time. Then we call the heading and go through your estimates.

Without further ado, I welcome you and you can start.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate the kindness you are showing towards this minister. I do appreciate it. I would like to introduce my officials. To my right is Robert Smart, Deputy Minister for our department. To my left is Dr. Mohammed Nazir, Assistant Deputy Minister for Forestry and Wildlife. Marty Howlett is the Assistant Deputy Minister for Agrifoods, and Sid Blundon is our Assistant Deputy Minister for operations for the department.

I am just going to take a few seconds to just say that this department - in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, basically - its involvement is in every aspect of rural life, be it in the forest, be it agriculture related or in wildlife; and the wildlife part of the portfolio includes inland fisheries. It includes the salmon rivers of the Province. It is a divergent portfolio and it has a lot of involvement with the stakeholders in a variety of ways.

I think what I will do is leave it there and let whoever wants to ask any questions about it, and I could make a couple of statements.

Basically, the pulp and paper industry has been having a pretty good year, a strong year, and we are working with the forest industry right now on a few issues. We are working on agrifoods, to develop the agrifoods industry.

I am going to leave it there and leave it open to you, Mr. Chairman, to take it from there.

CHAIR: Thank you.

If any of your officials want to speak, could they say their names first for Hansard.

Okay, Mr. Rideout?

MR. RIDEOUT: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Chairman, Minister, and your officials, I realize that the forest and agrifoods industry is a very important part of our economy in Newfoundland and Labrador. I realize that forest management is certainly one of the key areas that we have to look at for our future, particularly with silviculture and forest protection.

I think firefighting, insect control, and the education of the destruction in our forest industry - I think that might be one area that is very important for the future of our young people, that some type of education awareness would be very important to educate our younger people coming up, as to the importance of the forest industry in Newfoundland and Labrador.

I also realize that a wildlife resource in Newfoundland and Labrador is very important for our future, particularly with the outfitters and guiding companies that take people into our country and use our resource, which creates a lot of dollars in our economy in Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Minister.

I am certainly aware of the ecosystem and our ecosystem management planning for Newfoundland and Labrador. It is very important that we make sure our resource is sustainable and that we can take advantage of harvesting in wildlife and the forestry sector of our industry.

Also, I realize that our soils and lands are important when it comes to agriculture. I think that certainly agriculture should not take a back burner to the other part of your department. I think that agriculture is probably going to be, in the near future, one of the key areas where we can develop a different industry than we had in the past and take advantage of new jobs and job creation, particularly pertaining to the agriculture industry.

Mr. Minister, there are a lot of things in land management and forest management that do bother me, particularly when it comes to sharing of the resource and multi-users of our resources. I think the big companies are certainly taking advantage of positions of government, particularly your department, in keeping out other stakeholders in land use, particularly with certain sectors in our farming and agriculture uses.

I think we certainly have to look at some ways that have a balanced approach to multi-users in our resource, Mr. Minister. I think that certainly we have to protect our resources but also we have to enhance them. The greatest resource that we have today in our Province is our human resource. I think that by utilizing the resource we have now the way we are doing it now, I think that our human resource is going to take a devastating downturn in our Province. Too many people have to leave.

I know protecting our resource is important, but also, if we are not around to use our resource, and my children and grandchildren are not here to avail of our resources, then we are in for big trouble. We have to find a balanced approach to users of our resources. I think some times we are going to have to tread on the toes of our big companies.

I think your department certainly has to realize that for too long the bigger paper companies, the big sawmill operators, have taken advantage of the positions of some of our smaller businesses in Newfoundland and Labrador and forcing them to come under their foot, as we should say. They are controlling too much of what is going on in our resources. I have instances to show you, if you want to see the instances, particularly in forestry.

Also in the agricultural fields, particularly pertaining to some of our production areas with some questions that I will not get into tonight, but there are a lot of questions that I do have in mind, particularly pertaining to IPL. I think something your department should be looking at is the best way to spend our taxpayers' dollars.

Also, in the forest industry, Mr. Minister, from what I am hearing in my district, and I think some of my colleagues' districts, things are going on pertaining to A.L. Stuckless & Sons with some of their forest techniques and some of the way they are treating some of the other, smaller independent contractors and that.

Mr. Minister, I believe you have a good department. I believe you are doing a good job trying to keep your department in line, but I also believe there has to be a lot of changes made in our Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods. There is a lot of questions that we will ask you on the budget figures there when we get into them.

Probably now is a good time to ask you about some of the areas that I am concerned about, particularly in the agricultural field, and in particular to my district in Newfoundland. That is the area of crop specialists for Central Newfoundland, if you could make a note on that. That is one area a lot of people in my district are asking about. They say: How come we don't have that service, at least on a part-time basis?

Another area, Mr. Minister, is the ag. rep. for the Green Bay area. I think we probably should look at reinstating an ag. rep., particularly for the Green Bay area. I don't know if you have funds available to do that but at least if we could look at it that would be something.

A lot of good programs and a lot of good things have been happening in your department, particularly with your Safety Nets and your disaster income programs and stuff and I commend you and your department on that. I think it is not all bad but every department has some things that they have to do that they do not want to do. I'm sure you are looking at all aspects of your department that you do what you think is the right thing.

As of now, I will just pass it back to you, Mr. Chairman. We could get into the Estimates and ask questions pertaining to the Estimates here.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Ms Jones, would you like to comment now?

MS JONES: The only comment I want to make right now is regarding the outdoor resources management. I just want to say that I like the process that was put in place and the consultation that occurred over the last year including all stakeholder groups in our sector, not only with the management of inland waters and wildlife, but also with the management of other areas of outdoor youth, primarily the snowmobiling industry and things of that nature.

What I would say is that I think you have to continue that type of dialogue in order to ensure that all the concerns of the stakeholder groups are being considered and represented in terms of being able to manage this particular resource. I think it looks at all the multi-users in our communities and also across the Province. It is the proper way to ensure that proper conservation measures for resource development are put in place. I just wanted to acknowledge the work that has been there and say that I hope it continues.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Chairman, if I could comment on that?

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We appreciate the comment. I think you identified the further need to have a consultation process in place. One of the things we learned in the last year and a half, not just in this portfolio but in a couple of the portfolios that relate to the outdoor resources in the Province, is the need to have a process where people can, on a regular basis, make their views known.

We are looking at - where we have the inland fish and wildlife advisory council - revamping that to reflect it becoming more accessible to people in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. That is going to be something that we will be deliberating on shortly to make a final decision on. We definitely believe that we have to make it more accessible and make it so that its mandate is clear to everybody and also so that you can get the views of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians out there in a kind of process which is arm's-length from the Province, from the government.

We did learn some good things out of that consultation, a lot of good things, but we need a process in place for the future so you don't have to do it once every - you do it ad hoc. You should do it on a continuous basis. That is one thing we have learned and you are right.

MS JONES: If I could just add to the task force that was set up to deal with the Labrador resource management in particular, I think that was a good approach to the situation. I know that as a result of that particular document and the recommendations that are in it, it is going to lay a great deal of groundwork for future resource development in that area. Not only did it seek the input from the stakeholders but it also sought the input from all users in terms of people who live in the communities that are adjacent to it.

I know that your department was very timely in the implementation of a couple of the recommendations regarding the river management. I just hope that the other recommendations that are in it, although a lot of them pertain to federal departments, I just hope that your department will continue to follow up on those recommendations because I think it is important that when you have a document that looks at the entire strategy of it, that all aspects of it be addressed. Sometimes if we just look at one or two things we tend to lose sight of the full purpose, so I hope that you will continue to address those with our federal counterparts.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, and the other thing, Mr. Chairman, is that the seat that this member represents so well, she represents extremely well, has some of the best salmon rivers in North America, in her riding. We have to work with the people locally there to make sure that every benefit can be gotten locally for everybody there. That is one of the things I know they are working on, and watershed management is an area of interest for a lot of people there. It has worked in a positive way and we are doing that in forestry now.

We are doing a lot of consulting in forestry in different units. We have round tables there in the forestry units where people who are not just foresters - they are people who have an interest in wildlife or an interest in habitant protection, that type of thing - are all being invited to the table because there are more than just trees in the forest. It is the same thing you are talking about.

MS JONES: That is right.

Mr. Chairman, if I could just note something the minister did touch on, and I think it deserves to be said because it is ironic, I guess. In terms of watershed management, I think I have one of the watershed management groups in the Province that has been very effective in what it was designed to do.

While there are contrary opinions - or opinions to the contrary, I should say, in other parts of the Province -

MR. K. AYLWARD: Contrary, too.

MS JONES: (Inaudible) right the first time, yes.

While there are opinions to the contrary in other parts of the province, the watershed management group in my district has been primarily the most active organization in conservation and management of outdoor resources. I just want to recognize that as the minister brought it up.

Thank you, I have no questions.

CHAIR: Mr. French, do you want to lead off with questions, or do you want Mr. Hunter to start?

MR. FRENCH: No, I would rather (inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, I would like to ask some of your officials a couple of questions.

I was made aware last week of an incident in Central Newfoundland concerning one of your wildlife officers. I received an anonymous call that one of your officers was caught with possession of moose out of season, after the season closed. I do not know if that matter has been dealt with in the courts. Could one of your officials tell me about that?

MR. SMART: If there is an issue regarding a wildlife officer in possession of moose meat out of season and it is before the courts, I would expect that it would be dealt with in that forum. I am not very comfortable in discussing that particular issue with regard to a particular wildlife officer, particularly if it is before the courts.

MR. HUNTER: You are aware of it and it is before the courts, is it?

MR. SMART: I am aware of a situation similar, maybe, to what you describe, that did develop this past season that may be before the courts now. Whether it is the specific one you are referring to, I am not sure, but I am aware of a situation like that.

MR. HUNTER: Fair enough.

Another question I would like to ask someone concerning the water bomber fleet: Are all the water bombers back in the Province? If so, is there an estimate on how much money the Province benefits from leasing or renting the water bombers to other provinces?

MR. SMART: I will ask Dr. Nazir to comment on if they are back in the Province - forest fire suppression coming under his branch. With regard to how much money was made - and I am sure there was some - water bombers are administered by the Department of Works, Services and Transportation through their air services division; so the question of how much revenue was realized in that department by renting out our water bombers to other jurisdictions is better put to them. In terms of if all our water bombers are now back in the Province, perhaps you would be best to -

DR. NAZIR: They are scheduled to be back within the next two weeks. They are scheduled to be back, the first one on the fifteen and the other one a week or so later. My understanding is they are releasing them earlier because their situation has improved. The first one may be on its way, or may have already arrived, but it was supposed to be released a week early so it could be on its way. Within the next two weeks we will have all water bombers within the Province.

In terms of what revenue they generate, that was the second part of the question. On the average - it depends from year to year. It has been anywhere from $300,000 to over $800,000. The average would be around $500,000 to $600,000. It depends on our situation here, whether we are able to release them to other provinces. If we have low fire indexes then we would release them. If we have hot weather, windy conditions, then we do not release them. It would also depend on the fire situation in other provinces. In some years when they have very hot weather and their fire indexes are high, there is a great demand for them. In some years when the weather is down in other provinces and they do not have that hot weather, then the demand is less. Some years it is up and some years it is less, so it depends on their demand as well as our own situation.

MR. HUNTER: The amount that the Province gains from services provided outside the Province, would that be including expenses and overhead to run the water bombers while they are gone, or is that the responsibility of the people who lease the bombers?

DR. NAZIR: We have an agreement with the other provinces through an intergovernmental agency, a firefighting agency which is located in Winnipeg. There is an equipment exchange agreement with all provinces, in which the rates are established. Those rates, each province can demand their own rates but they are generally agreed upon rates. They include depreciation, they include operating pilot salaries, et cetera.

The local food, et cetera, accommodations, and travel costs are provided by the local province. The rest of it is hourly. Basic fee is separate and the hourly rates are separate.

MR. HUNTER: Minister, I received a call today from a constituent in my district who was looking for renewal of a timber licence. He was told to go to Corner Brook Pulp and Paper Limited. He talked to officials there and they told him: Well, from now on if you need timber licences or allocations then you are going to have to deal with A.L. Stuckless & Sons.

They said: What the future is going to be for you is that whatever A.L. Stuckless & Sons says then that is what you get. Is that true? Is there any agreement made with A.L. Stuckless & Sons to allocate timber resources, particularly in mine, in the Green Bay area there?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, thanks for the question.

Kruger has an agreement with A.L. Stuckless & Sons to supply to them an amount of chips. They have an agreement struck. Basically, some companies who are supplying to A.L. Stuckless & Sons will continue to do the same and some others may decide instead of dealing with - Kruger may decide they do not want to deal with the smaller sawmills. They may want them to deal with the bigger sawmill. If it is on their limits, then whatever arrangement they want to set up they can set up. What we are pushing is to ensure that as much wood as possible goes through sawmills around the Province.

Corner Brook Pulp and Paper Limited have put together in their facility a handling facility for chip receiving, which allows now sawmills to bring their chips, which was not there three or four years ago. It has only been in the last year or year-and-a-half that it has been operational.

They may well have decided that A.L. Stuckless & Sons will handle some of their dealings with sawmills. They may have decided that, but they do have a separate agreement with A.L. Stuckless & Sons and Corner Brook Pulp and Paper Limited. There is a separate agreement, and that was announced publicly last year in Gander.

MR. HUNTER: Doesn't your department have any control over the paper companies, like who they decide they want to give the contract to and who they don't?

MR. K. AYLWARD: We do not tell them who they do business with. They have to decide who they are going to do business with at the end of the day. We are pushing them, and our policy is to get into value-added. That is what we have been pushing for the last two or three years in particular. The sawmill industry has seen major increases in the last three or four years.

If Kruger is deciding they are entering into contracts with certain sawmillers, then on their limits we promote that and we expect them to do it. If they want to decide to have A.L. Stuckless & Sons or whoever handle some of their dealings with some of their sawmills then they have the right to do that, but we require them to deal with the sawmills within their limits; but they have licenses to certain tracks of lands in the Province. Of course, that was done many decades ago.

MR. HUNTER: I don't know what I could tell these small independent operators. They are pretty desperate right now. They tell me they have been in the business for thirty years, some of them, and now they are out the door. The future for them is welfare. I think that your department is going to have to do something particularly in Central to try to alleviate some of the concerns of the independent operators, particularly in the Green Bay area.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Why would they be out the door if they have an allocation and they are asked to deal with somebody else?

MR. HUNTER: They do not have allocations.

MR. K. AYLWARD: You are saying they will not get an allocation?

MR. HUNTER: They will not get one.

MR. K. AYLWARD: They have been told that directly for sure?

MR. HUNTER: Yes.

MR. K. AYLWARD: That they will not get an allocation. Yet they are being asked to go talk to A.L. Stuckless & Sons?

MR. HUNTER: According to what one gentlemen told me this morning, he said: You do not deal with us any more, you might go to A.L. Stuckless & Sons, that is who you will be dealing with from now on. He was in he field for thirty years.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We can check and see whether or not - they may be asking them to deal with a separate company, but they still may be willing to allocate to them part of their wood supply. Are they saying for sure they do not have any wood supply?

MR. HUNTER: That is what he told me.

MR. K. AYLWARD: That is what he told you.

MR. HUNTER: Yes.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We can check it. Any comments on that, Bob?

MR. SMART: I assume they are talking about land that is under license to the paper companies. In terms of Crown land and the allocation of wood from Crown land, that is under the control of the department and the minister. When it comes to land or timber on land that government granted or gave through licenses to paper companies many years ago, those companies do control access to that land and who cuts on it, and go through various processes to determine. If it is a case where you are talking access to company land, those types of limitations exist. If it is Crown land, it is under our control.

MR. HUNTER: It is Corner Pulp and Paper.

MR. K. AYLWARD: It is (inaudible). (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: He was also told by your department on Crown lands that there would be no allocation of cut for him. They told him to go back to Corner Brook Pulp And Paper Limited. Whatever chance he got, then it would be with the paper company.

MR. SMART: If you wanted to give us the name afterwards, as opposed to here, we can have a look at that situation for you.

MR. HUNTER: Is there any proposal of increasing the allowable cut for that area in the near future?

MR. K. AYLWARD: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: On Crown land, Minister, I'm talking about.

MR. K. AYLWARD: (Inaudible) comment on that one?

MR. SMART: The annual allowable cut is established every five years under a twenty-year forestry plan. The next review of the AAC is currently underway with a view to establishing new annual allowable cut levels effective April 1, 2001. That is when the next adjustment - and that could be up or down - to the annual allowable cut would take place.

MR. K. AYLWARD: So it stays in place until then, basically.

MR. HUNTER: I really do not know what to tell the people in the Green Bay area about forestry because it seems like there is a lot of discontent out there right now. There is a lot of people who are not too pleased in the Green Bay area, the Springdale-Triton-Robert's Arm area.

I had some really negative reports the past couple of weeks. I'm afraid that where we are so concerned about protecting the resource, if we do not have a balanced approach to multi-users of our resource and people in the forestry, particularly in that area, then God forbid that what is there now we are going to lose. Because they are some people out there who are pretty mad. Not saying that they will start forest fires, but there has been a lot of talk.

The way it is with Newfoundlanders and Labradorians today is: If I can't use it, then nobody will use it. That seems to be the attitude more and more that I am hearing. If I have to leave this Province, before I turns out the light there will be nothing left for anybody to come back to. That is serious business.

If you want to have the paper companies and the big saw millers control the resource, then I'm afraid you are going to have to put up with the consequences if something does go wrong. I would like to see this department sit down and try to make room for everybody in this resource. I think if we block out these small independents then we are in for big trouble. Particularly when it comes to mechanical harvesters. I've heard fellows say: Boy, they never said they were going to do it, but they are hearing talk that there are going to be a few charcoaled mechanical harvesters lying around in the woods.

That is serious business. I think we have to look at this situation. It is fine for us to say: Yes, we have to protect our future for our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren. I think if we don't seriously look at this and have everybody involved in it, all the stakeholders - which the minister just alluded to, that this is the beginning. I am glad it is because it is so serious a matter that there has to be a lot of consultation and a lot of input by all users. I think this should be done as soon as possible in the areas that pertain to forestry. I'm not getting good vibes from my district on forestry, and I think your department is going to have to seriously get cracking on that before it is too late, you know.

MR. K. AYLWARD: You know, that is a pretty extreme view but that is (inaudible) -

MR. HUNTER: It is. I regret to say it, but this is what I'm hearing.

MR. K. AYLWARD: No, no. We could decide that whoever comes in and wants to get an allocation we could decide to give it to them. We cannot do that anymore. We decided we cannot do that any more because we have to have a forest for the future. The forest companies a number of years ago had a lot more authority than they have now. They did not even deal with sawmills. As a matter of fact, they were not even encouraged to deal with sawmills. Now they are told they have to deal with the sawmills because we want them to, and if they do not we will force them to.

The capacity to handle sawmills has much improved and much increased in the last three or four years than it ever has been in our history. You can tell by the lumber production in the Province, which has gone - it saw over 100 per cent increase in the last five years.

If in an area there are some sawmills, or smaller ones, or the independents that are having more of a problem with a company that they have had a relationship with, say, for probably twenty-five or thirty years, then maybe that is what your are describing there, probably. We intercede on their behalf on a number of occasions around the Province. We talk to the bigger companies and we sit down with the sawmill operators in that area and try to work out a solution. I think that is much better to do. You are suggesting, I think, that we should do that and we would be willing to do that.

One of the reasons we are having the round table on June 1 this year on forest issues is to have these issues talked about at a table where you have the forest companies there, the bigger ones, that you have the bigger sawmills, you have the small sawmillers, and you have the other users of the forests sitting around the table looking at each other talking about the problems. Because a lot of times we deal with all of them independently. They will come to us and say: We need to have this or we need to have that. There are only certain limitations on a forest, and we have to make sure that as we go forward the rules are laid down and that there is some fairness to the rules. There is no doubt about that.

It is a concern for us as to the smaller independents, making sure that they can survive. We do not want to see the AAC cut back and put them in trouble, but at the same time we have to make sure there is enough forest for them for the future. It is a balancing act. We are trying to do that gradually. If we have an AAC that has to be reduced, we are looking at the smallest cut that we can make so that they can still keep their business going.

Some arrangements that the two big forest companies have, sometimes they have some disputes with some of their sawmillers. It has not been unknown to occur. We do get involved in those areas to try to see if we can resolve the issue, but again, they do have the licence to the land at the same time so they have rights to their land. At the same time, we have a forestry act which also gives us a lot of authority. You are right, there is a balance needed.

MR. HUNTER: A lot of their freehold licences are coming up for renewal in the next two or three years and their leases and stuff are coming up. What is your department considering to do with those to have these leases reduced to a short-term period and these long-term agreements will not happen anymore?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I appreciate your question again. I will basically tell you this, that there will not be what has been done in the past, in the sense of the long-term agreements that we originally signed off as a province. Or in some cases, I suppose, we were a colony at the time it was all done. We are looking at the process now about how we are going to deal with the new leases that will come up, the new land that will come back to the Province, and then how we would allocate that land. We are looking at the process. We are looking at a way to have public input into that too, so we are examining that now.

MR. HUNTER: There will be public consultation before any agreements are settled into?

MR. K. AYLWARD: As a matter of fact, under the forestry act we have a number of requirements that we have to do, but we are looking at a process to have public input. These are going to be big changes coming up, in the sense that the leases will come back to the Province. We want to make sure we have a policy laid down that is supported by the public at the same time. At the same time, you have forest companies that have hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of investment, so you have to try to find a way to keep them here and have access to a wood supply but not give away the wood supply. That is the big balance that we have to find.

MR. HUNTER: Does your department have a buyout plan for small operators, or any type of fund so that if they want to get out - rather than go bankrupt - there would be a buyout plan of some sort? Are there any plans of doing that?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Presently we have no buyout plan for small sawmill operators. We have been approached on that recently by one area in particular, but we have no plans at the present time to introduce a program. We have looked across Canada at some other provinces and saw whether or not they have done so. We have not been able to find any yet that have gotten involved in doing it.

What we are trying to do, what we are looking at, are our small sawmills, the ones that are really having a difficult time, the ones that do not have enough wood - some of them have small allocations on Crown - and are just not able to make it. We are looking at trying to get some of them together, to work together, so they can make a viable sawmill out of it.

We are not right now entertaining the idea of a buyout. They have made representations to us, but we have not made any decision on that at all.

MR. HUNTER: I talked to one of the paper companies last week on behalf of one of my constituents and the paper company said: We do not want to deal with small independents. They are only a pain to us. We want the big companies to come and see us and deal with us.

It seems like there is a plan behind the scenes to have these big companies walk over the small companies and put them out of business. I think it is unfair to people who have been in the business for thirty years to walk away and have bigger companies use their figures, particularly with some of the things that have been going on with A.L. Stuckless & Sons and their proposals to government to secure funding for increasing and expanding their businesses. Things have been told to me that I could not believe.

When the jobs numbers came up for A.L. Stuckless & Sons when they were applying for grants, or funding from government, the number of jobs created was based on a lot of the small independent companies. They figured they were used so that A.L. Stuckless & Sons could get the numbers in job creation to make it look attractive by government. These people are certainly mad over that.

The job increases that were promised were jobs that were already there by the small independents, and they figure that government has been misled to believe that this company was going to create a lot more jobs than they did and will create.

I do not know how aware you are of these things that went on in negotiations with A.L. Stuckless & Sons but, Minister, I think there is a problem arising and your department is going to have to answer some questions to the public, not to me. I am only speaking on behalf of people who call me. There are a lot of questions out there and these questions are going to have to be answered sooner or later.

Minister, one other question that I have is from a call I received today on some of the forestry access roads. Is you department responsible for using calcium or something on these in residential areas to keep the dust down? Is that part of your responsibility, in your department?

MR. K. AYLWARD: That I am not sure of but I think we have -

DR. NAZIR: The department of highways (inaudible). We do use calcium in certain situations but not in the communities themselves.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Not in the communities, okay.

We have a $2 million budget for roads but it is usually the highways department that has -

MR. HUNTER: I called highways, I called the supervisor and the superintendent. They said: Don't call us; call the Department of Forestry and Agrifoods. It is their responsibility.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Their responsibility? Give me the name of that fellow, will you?

DR. NAZIR: We do use some.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We do use some, do we? Do we have any? We have some calcium, do we? We do have some. Give me the name of the road after, will you?

MR. HUNTER: Alright.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We will check it out.

MR. HUNTER: They are the only questions I have. I do not know if any of the other board members -

CHAIR: Thank you.

Before I go on, I have one very quick question. Are you responsible for water bomber pilots? You are, are you?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: So the salaries do not come under your -

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Okay, then I won't ask the question.

Go ahead, Mr. Rideout.

MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, awhile ago I listened as you mentioned the words value-added in terms of sawmill operations in the Province. I twigged on to that because I think that is very important. I wanted to give you an opportunity, if you would, to elaborate for us on the policy and the process when it comes to specialty sawmill licenses.

I have a particular interest in that because there is an operation trying to get off the ground in Lewisporte - actually, it is just outside of Campbellton - that is having quite a lot of difficulty in terms of accessing a speciality sawmill licence. I know your department is aware of it because there has been correspondence back and forth on the matter, but it seems to me to be passing strange that if a private entrepreneur wishes to establish an operation in this Province based on the utilization of non-traditional species like birch, for example, and aspen, and if the operator says up front: I will buy that from any licensed operator that is in the area if I can get it in the quantities that I need, but can't be guaranteed a supply, why we would not issue a specialty licence for that kind of operation.

I know there has been a tremendous amount of difficulty for this particular operator to get off the ground. This person wants to use this stuff to make speciality products like picture framing, crafts and all of that. There is a big building down there, a lot of money invested, and somehow or other the stumbling block at the moment appears to be a specialty licence under the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

Perhaps you would like to take the opportunity to tell us what is happening in that regard and whether or not we can expect to see a policy put in place to ensure that is overcome.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thanks for the question. Our policy, especially in the last two or three years, has been to look at underutilized species and also to look at value added, not just in lumber but also on the use of other wood supplies that have traditionally not been used.

We have been evaluating - because there has been a lot of interest in this policy - the applications for licences that have come in. There have been a fair number of licences for birch, for example, that have come in. One of the things we are now doing - and I will ask the Assistant Deputy Minister or Deputy Minister to speak on this - is an inventory of some of the underutilized wood species that we have. Because we are getting such a demand for them that now that we are getting a number of licences out there we want to be careful we do not give out too many licences in certain areas geographically, so we will have fellows not able to make it who are in the business, entrepreneurs.

We want to make sure that if we are going to give out the licence that they have a good shot at it, a good business case, to make it. In this case I cannot speak to it directly yet, but I will ask, like I say, either gentleman to comment on it. We would be careful to ensure that there is enough wood supply in the area.

The companies that have the licences, the bigger companies, Kruger and Abitibi, both of them have been very cooperative in that area. They have been agreeable to have individuals go on and for them to take these underutilized species and use them for further job creation and value added. That has been part of the policy and that has been working quite well.

Dr. Nazir, do you have a comment on that?

DR. NAZIR: Thank you, Minister.

The minister is right that we are trying to encourage value added and utilization of the underutilized species. At the same time, we are trying to be cautious. There have been a lot of people in the past who applied for a sawmill or reprocessing for underutilized species. Our expedience has been that since these species are so scattered there are not contiguous stands of, let us say, birch or aspen. Therefore they are not as economical as some of the other conventional sawmills, if you are in to primary sawing.

As a result, our experience has been that in most cases within a year - in fact, within six months of getting a sawmill for hardwood, birch or something - they say: I cannot make go of it, you must give me some softwood allocation, which we cannot give because we have a shortage of wood. Then they say: Alright. Then they forget that they were requesting their MHAs, they were requesting other people, to give them a special concession because they will not be looking for a license for softwood. Then they say: I have invested the money, I have this much loan, so buy me out. The minister says we do not have a policy for buy out, so right away they get into trouble. We are just trying to be cautious to make sure whether it is a general operation or not.

In the case of primary sawing there is enough sawmilling capacity, both in softwood and hardwood lumber that any tree in Newfoundland, within allowable cuts, there is a capacity there, it can be used, and the capacity is being underutilized. In terms of re-sawing, in terms of manufacturing into another product, there is no restriction on sawmills. In fact, they are encouraged, if they are general. That means: if they are prepared to buy their lumber from the existing sawmills, not get into primary production. Because most of these guys try to get both in primary and then into valued added secondary manufacturing, but right away they get into trouble on the primary manufacturing, then they demand an allocation of softwood. We are simply trying to be careful.

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, I have no difficulty with the cautionary approach as enunciated by the minister and the assistant deputy. Where I have difficulty is when an investor, a business person, cannot get the guarantee supply from the other operators in the area. The other operators in the area are not prepared to guarantee that they will sell enough of the underutilized species to the business enterprise to keep them operating.

In those circumstances, I think, the department has to perhaps be a little less cautious than if there were squares out there to buy, if there was plenty of access to other operators to get the material necessary. That is what I am saying. When that set of circumstances presents itself, as it has in my case, then I think the precautionary approach has to be a little less precautionary and perhaps a little bit more proactive about creating every job we can in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. That is where I am coming from in this particular instance and I would hope that, with the picture being clear, perhaps the policy can be flexible enough to encourage the utilization of what is presently, as I understand it, underutilized species.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We will review that situation there, that you are speaking of, but again we would rather have somebody going into this with their eyes open and make sure that we all know what is available in an area. There are some people who have done their homework and they are quite comfortable. They will go and they do not want any guarantees or anything, but we will certainly look at that particular situation. We will get some more detail and we will be able to come back with a response. I will come back to your office on that.

Thank you.

MR. RIDEOUT: Minister, on another topic, IPL, it was briefly referred to here this evening. I think the public right to know would suggest that in a committee like this, the minister take an opportunity to give us a rundown on the operation. What is the exposure of the taxpayer of the Province now in that particular operation? How are its current operations going? Has it turned a corner? Can we expect it to be there for the long haul? Is it making money? Has the haemorrhaging stopped?

There is a significant public investment out there and I think there is a responsibility that the question be asked for a rundown on how the operation is progressing.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you for the question.

There is a significant public investment, and the public policy of the Province and of this government is to not run and be involved with the operation of a poultry processing plant, as we have been for the past twenty-odd years or thirty-odd years.

Our policy in the last two years, we decided to enter into an agreement and provide some upfront funding to the producers or the growers of poultry in the Province, after evaluating the proposal, and giving them the opportunity to run the operation in the private sector. That is the policy basis under which we entered into it.

The operation itself has been working steadily to overcome some of the challenges in front of them. They upgraded or recapitalized their facility. The old plant has basically been refurbished and a lot of new equipment has been added. Some new management have been added to kind of get the operation going in the right direction, to hopefully become profitable. They are working on that and we have been working with them to do that, but again they know the business and our policy is to have them run it and to make a go of it.

We are confident that they are making good progress, and we are working with them to do that. The exposure is the same as it was since December where we added $1.5 million, I believe, in loan guarantees. So the basic exposure in loan guarantees is about $12.9 million.

We have security on a lot of the assets, the buildings and so on, and also the chicken quotas for the Province, we have security on that. We have enough security but we are hopeful and confident that this business can move ahead. Its sales figures are very good. It has local contracts with major retailers and wholesalers of the Province, but it still going through challenges and it is working through that. They have run into scattered problems here and there, as you would, in trying to take a business that lost money for almost three decades and trying to make it work, but that is where it sits right now.

MR. HUNTER: Minister, could you tell me how much of the product produced at IPL is being exported out of the Province?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Basically it is all for domestic, I believe. It is all domestic, isn't it?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: There is none being exported?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Not very much, I do not think so.

WITNESS: I would not say; not very much.

MR. K. AYLWARD: No, not very much. Most of it is domestic. I think their average sales in the last couple of years have been $37 million or $38 million in revenue, around there?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: Okay, some going through the Sobeys out of the Province but a small amount.

MR. HUNTER: Could you tell me the percentage of your total production being exported out of the Province?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Let's see.

WITNESS: (Inaudible) 5 per cent or 6 per cent.

MR. K. AYLWARD: About 5 per cent or 6 per cent.

MR. HUNTER: Is that entered into a contract agreement with Sobeys, or is this based on demand?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, basically.

MR. HUNTER: It is contracted?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes. They have a deal with Sobeys, I believe, so Sobeys probably puts out (inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: Why would you export any of the product when you cannot supply the Newfoundland market totally?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Well, I think in this case it is Sobeys buying it and then deciding that they want to spread it around probably to some of their Atlantic Canada facilities. I suspect that is the basis of it, Marty?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: If it was a subsidized product, then none of it should be going out of the Province. If the taxpayers of Newfoundland and Labrador are going to produce this product, then we should not be subsidizing any exports of that product unless our total demand was satisfied in the Province.

According to what I understand, people have told me that only 60 per cent of their requests are being satisfied by the company and they have to look outside the Province themselves to get the other 40 per cent that they need; so I do not think we should export any of the product if we cannot satisfy our own market.

MR. K. AYLWARD: In that case there you have - I will ask the deputy minister to speak to this also - but in this case you have a company that about 90-odd per cent of their sales are basically being bought at point of sale in the Province. If the buyer of that product decides he wants to put it in some other of their stores around Atlantic Canada, then I am not sure I would argue with that.

MR. HUNTER: Taxpayers have to pay for it.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, but this is not so much subsidized any more. This is a cost that if we would have - if we wanted to take this facility and we decided we were not going to stay in the business and decided to shut it down, it would cost us a whole range of exposure, which is about the same amount.

We are not subsidizing the facility any more. We are not doing it on a ongoing basis every month like we used to do when we owned the facility. We used to subsidize it by about $800,000 to $1 million a month at the end of it. It is not a facility that we every month now write a cheque for. It is a facility trying to operate on its own with shareholders, trying to make it as a private corporation. Again, most (inaudible) sales are in the Province at point of sale, I expect. Bob?

MR. SMART: Perhaps just a couple of points. In terms of some customers in the Province not being able to get their full order filled, or still having to import, that is a very positive sign in the sense that while Integrated Poultry Limited is currently doing $40 million worth of business a year, the fact remains that there is still significant room in the local market. There are wholesalers and retailers bringing in product that they will gladly buy from Integrated Poultry Limited when the product is available. There is a lot of market potential there. That is a very good sign for IPL.

In terms of product going out, number one, they are a private business. If they can sell it better somewhere else than they can sell it here, they would do that. Those opportunities do not arise very often. The other thing is that in dealing with fresh and frozen chicken products that have a certain, not shelf life, but freezer life, they can run into periods in their production cycle when there are peaks, when they have certain products in their freezers that, if they do not move them quickly they decline in quality, the longer they are kept in the freezer. If the local market cannot absorb all their product at a particular point in time, they would obviously move it out of the Province rather than leave it in the freezer and subject it to a reduction of the quality.

It does happen on occasion, but this is predominately a company that is serving the local market and a local marketplace that has a lot of room for expansion and increase in IPL sales.

MR. HUNTER: How do you monitor how much goes out by Sobeys? Is there any monitoring process to see what percentage of what they buy is exported?

MR. SMART: We do not know. We are not in the chicken business any more. IPL would probably be able to tell you, perhaps, but we do not monitor.

MR. K. AYLWARD: To say it again, at the point of sale it is pretty well all bought by wholesalers or (inaudible) companies within the Province. If they decide they are going to have some of it marketed in some of their other stores, then that is fairly allowed. What we want to do is we are hoping that this can become a viable business, make it a viable business for the future that does not require any subsidy from government, that can move ahead, create jobs and be stable. That is our goal.

CHAIR: Mr. Rideout.

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, I have one more area I would like to briefly explore before I conclude, Minister, and that is the agriculture development area. As the minister is no doubt aware, Comfort Cove-Newstead in the District of Lewisporte is a prime agricultural piece of property, one of the few prime agricultural pieces of property, I suspect, that we have in the Province. There are not many of them.

In terms of root crops and that kind of agriculture, it has really grown in leaps and bounds in the Comfort Cove-Newstead area over the last five or six years. There is one particular operator out there who is supplying national wholesalers from September or October of each year up until March or April of each year. That is a tremendous improvement in agricultural production in a small area of the Province, and there is still tremendous potential for it to grow.

My question to the minister is this: Does the minister's department have any plans to try to somehow or another plug agricultural development into funding that will be coming about as a result of the post-TAGS investment in the Province? I understand there was a $80 million or $81 million fund announced by the federal government just recently that will flow to the Province. It seems to me that this is a perfect match. You have a fish plant in Comfort Cove-Newstead, one of the few that is still operating, because it is into shellfish and that kind of thing. There was a tremendous job loss in that area because of the groundfish moratoria. You have an opportunity here, by utilizing the agricultural development resource, where there is great agricultural potential, to marry the two and perhaps create some new job opportunities in the agricultural industry, utilizing some funding that might flow to the Province because of the downturn or the moratorium in the fishing industry.

Can the minister enlighten us as to whether or not his department is into that kind of thinking?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Rideout, I appreciate this question. It is definitely where we are at. As a matter of fact, we have down a lot of homework in the last two or three years. Martin Howlett and the officials completed an agrifood strategy document in 1997, which is a formal document that we have given out publicly which outlines the direction we want to go.

Further to that, the rural revitalization committee of the Cabinet met with all the regional economical development boards in the last year. Throughout those meetings one of biggest issues that come up was support for agriculture. As a matter of fact, the best opportunities identified were in agriculture around a number of areas in rural Newfoundland, in your area in particular, but in a lot of other economic zones.

We have reevaluated the funds that we have available, which is our Agriculture Safety Nets agreement, which is working quite well. Over 200 farm units in the last twenty-four to thirty-six months have received direct grant assistance in helping their operations. One example is in Bishop Falls. We have a cold storage facility that has been put in place because of the growth of root crops and so on in that area. I think well over $100,000 was put in there to assist them to do that and it is working quite well. I know in your area that is one area that we could be doing that also, so we are going to be looking at that.

We do have applications in now. We have put proposals into the post-TAGS agreement infrastructure that is under evaluation. We expect some decisions very shortly. We are expecting a number of dollars to go towards agriculture because it is not only the area that we think is the way to go, but also because the zone boards are saying the same thing. We believe there are some very good opportunities there in a number of areas, be it in root crops or cranberry development, which we are getting into right now pretty heavily, as another example, and in a number of other areas. We are going in that direction. A lot of the homework is already down, it has been submitted. You are going to see more on it in short order. Martin, do you want to comment on that a little further?

MR. HOWLETT: The minister is quiet right. We have prepared an industry profile in all of the economic zones that have agriculture in them. We have sent it out to the RED boards. I think the strategy is being developed.

About a month ago we had a round table on the vegetable industry which had producers - the producer that you speak of, Mr. Rideout, was there. We had representatives: the buyers from Colemans, Dominion and these people that do the buying. They are cooperating with us and with the producers so that the product that is produced is produced at a time when the market is there. They have had some discussion on price and so forth, but it has to be very well organized because those people buy two weeks in advance. They have to know two weeks before it comes into their distribution centre what is coming in, the quality and so forth.

We have done a lot of work on that in the last couple of years. We have involved all the producers and all the buyers and the entire industry. It was the first round table on the vegetable industry, I guess, since I have been around agriculture in the Province. It was really worthwhile, I must say, and all producers found it that way.

The producer you are talking about in your area, we have been working with him. As a matter of fact, he started probably three or four years ago. We have assisted him in getting some roadwork done, vegetable storage. He is working hand in hand with our staff.

MR. K. AYLWARD: One of the issues related to that is that we have also met with McCain's over in New Brunswick about potato processing, for example, to see what would be the numbers required for them to look at the potential of an operation in Newfoundland, even a smaller one. We have been given all the details about what they would need. We have small production levels, but it is starting to rise. We have done enough homework there. If you look at rural New Brunswick, they started way back when. If we get some good momentum going and get people going back at it again there is some value added that you could get into and you could do it in this Province. We have explored that at the same time.

MR. RIDEOUT: It is certainly a great potential growth area. I encourage the minister and his officials to try to get their hands on every dollar they can to further develop the infrastructure and support the industry. Because my understanding is we are only producing about 10 per cent of our own needs.

MR. K. AYLWARD: In certain areas, yes.

MR. RIDEOUT: I mean, talk about a tremendous market potential, as well as job creation potential, in areas of the Province where the soil and climatic conditions are such that you can do it. You cannot do down in Fleur de Lys, I realize that, but in Comfort Cove-Newstead you can.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Are you sure you cannot do it in Fleur de Lys? (Inaudible).

MR. RIDEOUT: There are too many rocks there, boy.

MR. K. AYLWARD: They have some berries down there, though. We can get some berries.

MR. RIDEOUT: I hooked enough of them out of the ground trying to grow a few potatoes when I was growing up there.

MR. FRENCH: I have a question. Is there anything going on between your department and the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology at this particular point in time whereby there are ongoing discussions to start producing, maybe bottling and canning, some of the things that we produce in the Province? Is there anything going on right now between your department and the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology? If there is, can you tell us what it is, and has it now hit a stumbling block?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you for your question, Mr. French. There is an ongoing discussion with Industry, Trade and Technology. They have sought out, I think, a consultant to help identify value added opportunities for processing. I will ask Martin Howlett, Assistant Deputy Minister, to give a comment on this.

We have identified a number of opportunities so we are working with the Department of Industry to see if we can attract some of those companies. We are also doing that on an ongoing basis ourselves, as a matter of fact. Mr. Howlett?

MR. FRENCH: In the project with Industry, Trade and Technology, is your department, or are some people in the industry, hitting a road block within Industry, Trade and Technology? I have been given information in the last couple of days (inaudible) questions.

MR. HOWLETT: Mr. French, I'm certainly not aware of a road block, but if there is I would certainly like to know it. Because there is a committee set up with our department and ITT. We are doing certain work to see who is out there in private industry because we see the value added further process as the area to take the agrifoods industry of the Province. That is where you get your greatest return. We are trying to, I guess, keep in tune with the eating habits of the population today.

As you are all probably aware in this House, I guess, every Sunday, or once or twice a week, not everyone puts on the corned beef and cabbage pot any more. Eating habits have changed. They are going for the more ready foods: the coleslaw and the lettuce and everything ground up and ready for the microwave and so forth. That is where we are trying to take the industry.

Back to, I guess, Mr. Rideout's concern where he talked about a guy out in his area producing a lot of turnip, cabbage and so forth, but sometimes they end up struggling to try and stay in the marketplace. They are looking at things like coleslaw, taking some of the larger cabbage and putting it out in coleslaw, ready to use, and what have you. That is where we are trying to take the industry.

The return on that type of product, if you pick it up and look at it off the supermarket shelf, it is unbelievable, compared to picking up, say, a head of cabbage.

MR. FRENCH: I do know that Industry, Trade and Technology have called for proposals. Are you part of that proposal?

MR. HOWLETT: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Where is that today?

MR. HOWLETT: That was only in the paper about two weeks ago, roughly, so the contract, as far as I am aware, is probably not even let yet. Unless there is some other snag that you are talking about that it is after running into that I would not be aware of.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Hunter.

MR. HUNTER: I would like to ask Mr. Howlett a question pertaining to the blueberry industry in Central Newfoundland. Is your department in full support of this new industry developing in the Grand Falls-Windsor area? If so, is your department prepared to help with funding of developing some of these new industries in Central Newfoundland?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Before the Assistant Deputy Minister speaks on that I want to jump in for one second.

The berry industry is a real opportunity for this Province, big time. I will give you an example of Markland Winery. Markland Winery is, I believe, expanding its production. It is hiring more people and it has pretty well sold out everything it has. It has buyers pretty well for everything that it is producing. Some of the best wine in North America is being produced there. They have contracts with local collectors of berries in the Province that are just spreading out across the Province. It is a real opportunity there. That is an example of something that was not here a few years ago that now is, and it is going to do okay.

Go ahead, Martin.

MR. HOWLETT: Well, there has always been some blueberry production in Central Newfoundland but they have mostly been picked in the wild; people have been going in and picking them. It is only in the last couple of years that we have been working with one producer out there who started to manage blueberry lands and actually farm them - go in and cut it off and burn it and what have you. There is a lot of interest in Central Newfoundland in the berry industry; not only blueberries. We have been doing quite a bit of work on partridgeberries. As the minister said earlier, we have been doing quite a bit of research and some pilot project work in the cranberry industry.

The berries, I guess, these days - cranberries, partridgeberries, blueberries - they claim that they have a lot of medicinal benefits. We are trying to capitalize on some of that benefit too.

MR. HUNTER: The question was: Are you in full support of this development in the Grand Falls-Windsor area? Are you in full support of that?

MR. HOWLETT: Wherever there is potential for development of any of the agrifoods sector in the Province, we are supporting it. We are giving some support in that area, yes.

MR. HUNTER: Are you lobbying on their behalf, through Crown Lands, to acquire the proper land base for that?

MR. HOWLETT: I always lobby on producers' behalf when it comes to argifoods, as most people in this House can attest to.

MR. HUNTER: For the record, then, you are in support of these producers in the Grand Falls-Windsor area? You are -

MR. HOWLETT: Yes, Grand Falls has a -

MR. HUNTER: - and encourage industry development in that area?

MR. HOWLETT: Definitely. They have the potential for a berry industry.

Now, we can get into a big argument about size and what have you but that is something we like to see privately led, which is happening out there with one individual, and he has other guys interested.

I think it stands a great chance of success, the fact that there are private entrepreneurs prepared to get in there, put in their own time, labour and dedication and what have you, and we give them some assistance when we can. We have blueberry staff who work - we refer to them as small fruit specialists, and we have a technician, so we get involved with them on a technical aspect also.

MR. HUNTER: Still, the question, are you in support of these blueberry producers acquiring more land base -

MR. HOWLETT: Yes, they would have to acquire more land base -

MR. HUNTER: Are you supporting them 100 per cent?

MR. HOWLETT: - in order to expand.

MR. HUNTER: Okay, thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Mr. French?

MR. FRENCH: I just have another question. I wrote the minister a while ago concerning crop insurance, concerning moose in this Province, and I got a letter back telling me about crop insurance and so on. I meant, Kevin, over the next little while, to actually address this to you when we had ten or fifteen minutes privately in the House, but unfortunately some of the people in my area, in Conception Bay South, are farming Crown land. If they had to go out and stick up a fence, they would be the next fifty years trying to earn enough money to fence it. Some of them had some pretty heavy losses last year; number one due to moose, and the other one due to a potato blight.

I know in one case the guy did not have crop insurance. I just wonder what, if anything, was there for an individual like him? I do know that the feds came out a while ago with a truckload of money for at least the farmers in Western Canada. I just wonder if any of that money is going to find its way here? If it does, is there anything we can do with fellows who have been hit with a potato blight or whatever else? Because I really find it amusing, any time I cross the Gulf, if I am driving, some jackabaun runs me through seven ways to Sunday through some bloody car wash, but I can come back with a load of horse shit from the other end of her and it does not make any difference what Province I am coming from; nobody gives two hoots in hell what I have. If I do not have apples or - I would not say apples, but they will ask you about one or two different kinds of fruit but other than that, that is it. It seems like when we go out of this Province we have to get the seventh degree and coming back nobody really cares. Why is that?

MR. K. AYLWARD: That is a good description of it, actually, I have to say. That one I will come to in a minute because I have looked into that one. I have been looking at that one very hard, trying to see if we can change that.

We are the only Province in Canada that has an amendment now with the crop insurance program that we had with the federal government that allows for protection from moose damage. We got it through last year. We have revamped our crop insurance program to make it free up to 60 per cent coverage so that any farmer can apply and have coverage up to 60 per cent and it is no cost. After that, if she goes up, you have to pay some extra.

Some people have not taken up the insurance for whatever reason. We went through it again and asked our people to go back and talk to each of the farmers, send out more applications, that type of thing. Now we are looking at having meetings in the regions, a meeting in each area specifically on crop insurance.

Also, the second program that has just been announced by the federal minister is a program for disaster relief. Again, that is based on the total farm income. If a farmer just has potatoes, or he has one big crop, and he has been participating in the normal program that we have, then he can qualify there again.

I will ask the assistant deputy of agriculture to just give an overview on the new program, just to see whether or not it might meet. Again, they have to have a way to evaluate and it is based on incomes that you have, income taxes and all that.

Marty, if you wouldn't mind?

MR. HOWLETT: Mr. French, you talked about a farmer farming on Crown land. Hopefully you meant he is farming on land that was leased from the Crown and not just going in and farming on Crown land.

MR. FRENCH: Call it what you like, he is farming it.

MR. K. AYLWARD: His farm is on Crown land.

MR. FRENCH: That is right, yes.

MR. HOWLETT: The moose damage one is an interesting one because we have been at this one, I guess, for years. The last two years we did a pilot project on the West Coast with some of the caribou herds where they were going in and eating up a lot of the forage crops and the vegetable crops. There was a new braided fence out, an electric fence, that had some promise.

The guy you are talking about, I am quite familiar with him because I have had a number of conversations with him and there is a possibility -

MR. FRENCH: I don't know if you have had as many as I have had.

MR. HOWLETT: Yes, I have. Both him and his wife, I think they alternate.

That is an area I have talked to him on that probably could be looked at because we do have a safety net program which has small amounts of dollars available to some farmers. I suggest to him that is probably an area that he could look at in terms of (inaudible).

There is also an AIDA program, an Agriculture Income Disaster Assistance program which was just announced. It is a federal/provincial program, cost-shared 60-40. It is based on an average of their last three years' income. If it falls below a 70 per cent benchmark they can apply, based on their income tax returns, for assistance. If their income has been down substantially they probably could qualify for some assistance.

As the minister said, it is based on whole farm. That is all your income - if it is potatoes, cabbage, turnips, mushrooms and whatever.

MR. FRENCH: Have you talked to Ches about all of that?

MR. HOWLETT: Yes, I have talked to him about all of that. When they file their income tax return there is another form they make out - our people are all trained in it now - that they can send in and the information will be made available from the income tax department through the NISA administration in Winnipeg. They will make a determination whether they trigger payment or not. The thing is a little more complicated than that but it will probably take too much time to go through it all tonight.

MR. FRENCH: Is (inaudible)? Can I ask you that? Is he going to involve himself in any of these programs?

MR. HOWLETT: I do not know what his income is. Each producer is going to have to make that decision himself because only they can sit down and determine what their income has been for the last three years and what that averages out to. Maybe prices were high enough that he will not fall below that 70 per cent bench mark. We would not be able to determine that. He would have to determine that himself. When he puts in his income tax return, he can apply for assistance if he thinks he will qualify. Next year it will be based on the previous three years, which means this year and the previous two would be on them. That is the way the program basically works.

MR. FRENCH: I am expecting very shortly to go to a meeting with some of those people.

MR. HOWLETT: Our people are prepared to come out and meet with them too and explain. Our crop insurance people administer the program.

The potato blight, as you may know, is controllable. If a farmer sprays he can control potato blight and not end up losing his crop. Once you start a spraying program you have to be consistent in your application. You cannot spray it today and not spray it any more for a month and a half. It does not work that way. I also explained all of that to (inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: We are looking at the possibility of helping with some of the farmers who were hit with potato blight in the sense of maybe some seed potatoes, something like that. We are looking at seeing what is possible to do because some people -

MR. FRENCH: I think that is one of the questions he raised with me. Was there something that could be done to offset what he lost, supposing it was seed or something to give him?

MR. K. AYLWARD: We are looking at that right now (inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: Is that a possibility for 1999, that you may be able to give them something?

MR. K. AYLWARD: We are going to determine that within the next week. One of the things we want to do is that we want people to sign up for the crop insurance from now on. A lot of people did not sign up. If they had signed up, they would have been covered this time. Because most of the applications for crop insurance this year - the people who signed up who were potato farmers got covered, and a fair number got covered.

One of the requirements might be that if we make a move to do something, even some seed, we might decide to have a requirement that you have to sign up. Because it is free anyway, up to a certain point.

MR. FRENCH: As well, the question that I have raised on the spray - because it just draws me crazy. I went to visit my daughter last year in Nova Scotia. I wanted to bring up - to tell you the truth, I did bring her up two little seedling trees about so big which I bought in Newfoundland and put in the trunk of my car. While I'm waiting in the lineup some jackabaun says to me: Would you open the trunk of your car? I had to really grind my teeth and bite my tongue. I got out and opened the truck of my car, which totally went against my grain, I have to say. I mean, as far as I was concerned, what was in the trunk of my car, without I was smuggling something, was really none of his business.

I suppose I was smuggling something because I had two of these little trees in there. What harm they were doing to anybody I do not know. He did not find them anyway and if he did, I would not have thrown them away, but that would have been another story. The fact remains that this stuff was there, and it really annoys me that when we go out of this Province we are treated that way but when we come in we are not treated like that.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Marty, do you want to comment on that?

MR. FRENCH: I can bring back what I like. I can bring back potatoes or I can bring back whatever.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes. Unless the ADM wants to give a comment on it, but we have been pursuing that for the last few months about whether or not there is a need for that any more. The federal agency responsible thinks there is a need now. I will let the Assistant Deputy Minister give his comments and I will come back and finish it off.

MR. HOWLETT: The reason why, I guess, the car wash has been put in place, as everyone is aware, is because for years we have had canker in the Province. They put it place to protect that moving out in any plants with soil and what have you because of P.E.I. and their big potato industry, and in New Brunswick and the other parts of Canada.

The other one was the nematode which we have here which can move out. As the minister has said, I guess from this side of the Gulf we could argue about the need, but when Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada looks at it, they look at it in terms of need for the entire country. They have determined as recently as the last couple of years that there is a need and the station stays there. Everybody that you talk to probably questions about how it gets done sometimes. You might get one tire washed or two or none or what have you so it stays there.

There is interesting thing too about - and the minister mentioned - the crop insurance. On a pilot project basis for a couple of years we offered 50 per cent coverage free. It is probably the first time that I am aware of in the Province of anything that you offered free that never got taken up. Very few took up the offer of free coverage up the 50 per cent, and then you could buy up to 70 per cent or 80 per cent for a set premium. Like we said, the producers if you at least have 50 per cent and you have a total loss, you have something. It is up to you whether you buy up to 70 per cent or 80 per cent. The take up was not that much but I think it will probably be up substantially this year.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister what his plans are for the Wooddale Tree Nursery, and if there is going to be any extra funding or extra programming available in the next few coming years to put into the Wooddale Tree Nursery, and if there are any federal agreements made for this year?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you for the question. We are very active with the Wooddale Tree Nursery. As a matter of fact, we are expanding its mandate into cranberry, the growing of vines. We are growing our vines within the Province for cranberry production. I do not know if you have been there recently or not but you should go in and have a look, Ray, because it is something to behold.

Besides the seedlings for trees for our silviculture program, it has expanded now for cranberry production, the vines. We expect for the future that it will be involved in doing that. We are getting more into a variety of growing of different types of berries and stuff. We are going to do a lot of experimenting at that facility. We expect to have an expanded mandate for it coming up.

As a matter of fact, we are going to be meeting with the member there and also with the council in the next month to talk to them about the facility and where we expect it to go in the future. It is really on a positive swing that it is heading. We expect to do more there in the future and more also in agriculture, which is really good to see, very positive actually.

Marty, any thoughts on that?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, the cranberry production is quite something to see. We are over a million vines now? Is it a million in cranberries?

MR. HOWLETT: We started off with 20,000 plants that we brought in from tissue culture. As we speak, I think, yesterday we made the last cuttings and we are up to $1.2 million vines right now. That will do four pilot projects.

MR. HUNTER: Is that an indication that you will be downsizing the seedling production in there?

MR. HOWLETT: No.

MR. K. AYLWARD: No.

MR. HUNTER: So the tree nursery itself is not going to be affected?

MR. K. AYLWARD: No, it is just extra space that is at the nursery.

MR. HUNTER: So the future for that facility is still good.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, very stable. I think it is going to be enhanced myself.

WITNESS: (Inaudible) timing.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, longer periods of work. Like they are working them longer instead of maybe the minimum number of weeks they might have gotten say, for example. We expect there will be more there.

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, if our colleagues are ready I think we can begin calling the heads.

CHAIR: Shall I ask the Clerk to start calling the heads?

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 carry?

MR. RIDEOUT: On 1.1.01, I just want to ask the minister to take an opportunity to explain something. Now, this question is not being asked in a critical manner, unlike Liberal oppositions years ago when they were questioning every dollar a minister spent on travel. I love to see ministers travelling because every time they spend a dollar to expose and promote the Province I think it is money well spent. I have to ask the minister how it is that -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) tell that to Chuck.

MR. RIDEOUT: Tell that to Chuck, yes. What was the special activity that caused the minister to more than double his travel budget last year from $68,400 to $131,000. I'm sure there is good reason. I just want the minister to have an opportunity to tell us the reason.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Gee, I really appreciate that question, I must say. Yes, there is a number of reasons for it. The public meetings that we did on the outdoors is one, because we did a lot of those. I was one of the ministers involved in that. Also, the Rural Revitalization Cabinet Committee did a lot of meetings on top of the - as the Rural Revitalization Cabinet Committee there were a lot of visits around the Province. Also, included in that there was a transfer of the communications director. Her travel is coming out of my travel, so it is included in there.

My total travel for the year was around $60,000, so all those other costs are included in that number. That is going to change for next year, I can tell you that. Really, most of it is related to the Outdoor Resources Cabinet Committee meetings and the Rural Revitalization Cabinet Committee meetings that were all over the Province.

MR. RIDEOUT: I thank the minister for the information. I will pose the same question in terms of 1.1.01.06, Purchased Services, in the Minister's Office. What was it that caused the minister to more than double his Purchased Services vote?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes. It is pretty well the same again in the sense of -

MR. RIDEOUT: That director of communications is a big spender, is she?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Well, no, we take more credit for that.

MR. RIDEOUT: (Inaudible) who it is. Is it a he or a she?

MR. K. AYLWARD: No, we take more credit for that but again, it is being around the Province, being on the road.

MR. RIDEOUT: Tell us what Purchased Services is, Minister.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We have office equipment here, we have miscellaneous purchased advertising, periodicals. We did a lot of advertising for the Outdoor Resources Cabinet Committee through our budget. We did the same for the Rural Revitalization Cabinet Committee. Again, a lot of moving around there. Because we did a spray program last year for example, the first time we did a chemical spray program, we did a lot more advertising there. Actually, more public meetings there also, so that is a fair bit of it.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 1.2.01, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report 1.2.02 through 4.6.01, carried?

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

CHAIR: Do you want to go through them all?

MR. RIDEOUT: No. If we are going to do it that way, then we will just basically flip through the heads and see where we want to ask some questions, Mr. Chairman, like we have done previously.

CHAIR: Alright.

MR. FRENCH: I have one question, Mr. Chairman. On page 127, Operations and Implementation, 2.1.02.06, Purchased Services, it says we budgeted $1,539,600 but we only spent $524,900. Why would that have been? This is going down but I'm just curious. We saved over $1 million, but why did we budget $1,539,600 in the first place?

MR. SMART: At the time the budget was prepared last year the department was still in the process of restructuring, so there were amounts put in the budget under this particular head that subsequently got transferred out to other parts of the department. That money was actually spent, it just was not spent under this particular head. It was just realigning the budget afterwards to make it consistent with the restructuring of the department.

MR. FRENCH: It was too big an amount of money just to - if it was so important (inaudible).

MR. SMART: We spent it.

MR. K. AYLWARD: It is just moved somewhere to another subhead, isn't it? Is that the way it is?

MR. SMART: Yes.

MR. RIDEOUT: Maybe it was moved to the head up above. Can we go back to 2.1.01, Administration and Program Funding?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. RIDEOUT: In head .10, I noticed that you budgeted $97,200 in Grants and Subsidies last year when you actually spent $1,109,000 in Grants and Subsidies. Could the minister tell us what those Grants and Subsidies were, to whom they were paid out, and some of the amounts?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Basically, the Newfoundland and Labrador Lumber Producers Association, $67,000. We have the Junior Forest Wardens for $2,500.

WITNESS: That is why it (inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: Oh yes, right there, okay.

The Canadian Council of Forestry Ministers, a small contribution. There were some other small grants there, but the $1 million that adds up there is this. There is a Legacy Trust Fund that we are establishing in the Province, arm's length from government, that is going to -

MR. RIDEOUT: I am sorry. What is it called, Minister?

MR. K. AYLWARD: The Legacy Trust Fund for wildlife habitat.

MR. RIDEOUT: Okay.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We are going to try and attract funds from outside the Province. That is $200,000 a year over five years, to my understanding, I think it is. It is $1 million dollars up front. That is put in the budget for this year for that. We are going to announce the details of that program in the next few weeks.

CHAIR: Can we go back to 1.2.01? Was that carried?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

CHAIR: Carried? 1.2.02?

MR. RIDEOUT: Are we going to put them all at the end of the evening, Mr. Chairman?

CHAIR: We could, yes.

MR. RIDEOUT: That is (inaudible).

CHAIR: I thought we were finished with the headings.

MR. RIDEOUT: We are finished with them in terms - but it is just as convenient (inaudible).

CHAIR: We will go through them and we will call them all at the end.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Okay.

MR. RIDEOUT: Resource Roads Construction, 2.1.05.06, Purchased Services. I assume that is the actual contracts for forest resource roads. Could the minister tell us where the department is planning to invest almost $2 million this year in forest road reconstruction or new construction?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you for the question. We have a priority list that has been established, recommended by our different regional offices. Those decisions are just about made. Tender calls are going to get ready in a short period of time. They should be underway to go shortly, as a matter of fact.

There are a number of areas where sawmillers need some roads done. Again, a lot of this is done to ensure continued employment of people who are in the business. We are ready to go with (inaudible).

MR. RIDEOUT: Maybe I could put the question this way. Could the minister tell us how many kilometres of new construction his department is planning to tender this year?

MR. K. AYLWARD: There is an estimated sixty kilometres of new and twenty kilometres of upgrading, so it is eighty kilometres total.

MR. FRENCH: Will this be public tender in the paper or will it be this new system that the government is talking about?

MR. K. AYLWARD: It is in the papers? Yes, this one is still in the papers. There is a new system coming in I think for procurement but this one will be in the papers.

MR. RIDEOUT: If we could just skip back for a moment, Minister, to Silviculture Development, 2.1.03. I notice there was a significant overspending between the amount budgeted and the amount spent in Purchased Services last year. There has continued to be significant - you know, over $3 million spending again this year.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. RIDEOUT: My first question would be asking for an explanation on the increase in the difference between the amount budgeted and the actual expenditure last year and how that projects on into this coming fiscal year.

MR. K. AYLWARD: The Cabinet decided later in the year to go with an extra amount for silviculture, for further job creation, so that was added on later in the year.

MR. RIDEOUT: For job creation.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, for job creation. We have pretty well the same amount budgeted, our regular amount for next year coming up. Usually in the fall they look at the program and see what the budget is like and so on. Last year it was, again, a benefit to rural areas because we were able to do some more work.

MR. RIDEOUT: Can the minister tell me how many jobs are created in silviculture in a typical fiscal year and how much is paid for silviculture work?

MR. K. AYLWARD: We have been averaging about $12 or $12.5 million the last four to five years, total. We also have an agreement with the federal government through HRD. We are entering into a new one - we expect to in the next month - with them again over the next three years. We have been averaging around $12 million. The industry also contributes that amount. It has created work for approximately 1,200 people annually around the Province, rural areas. It is a very good program. It is one of the biggest job creation programs that we have.

MR. RIDEOUT: How much are we paying those workers now, Minister?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Pardon?

MR. RIDEOUT: How much are we paying those silviculture workers?

MR. K. AYLWARD: We have two different scales of pay. Dr. Nazir?

DR. NAZIR: It depends whether they (inaudible) pay for (inaudible) chain saw (inaudible). I think in the order of $11 or $12 an hour.

MR. K. AYLWARD: They get a base rate of - is it $700?

DR. NAZIR: Seven something dollars plus a bonus.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Then they have a bonus for cutting.

DR. NAZIR: (Inaudible) chainsaw hire.

MR. K. AYLWARD: For hiring your chainsaw, that kind of thing. Probably it is around $9 an hour.

MR. RIDEOUT: I'm just wondering, as I look at Silviculture Development here, how come we are not showing any revenue. For example, I know that the minister's department, in silviculture on Crown lands, will sell the cut to whoever, so there is some revenue that is generated as a result of silviculture projects that are run on Crown land by the minister's department. So there should be some revenue returned to the department if that is the case. Can the minister tell me exactly what is happening in that regard?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Our revenue for stumpage goes into -

MR. RIDEOUT: Not stumpage. I am talking about selling. If you carry out a silviculture program on Crown land and there are saw logs cut, as a result of that they are sold. The firewood is sold, right?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. RIDEOUT: That is related revenue to the projects. It must show up in the budget somewhere, I think.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, you go ahead, Dr. Nazir.

DR. NAZIR: There are two ways of handling that revenue. One way is you could put out a contract and say the wood belongs to the Crown and then sell the wood. Another way is to announce that the contractor keeps the wood and therefore any revenue from that wood should be deflected in the price of the contract. To avoid any complications we have been following the latter procedure.

MR. RIDEOUT: It belongs to the contractor.

DR. NAZIR: The contractor sells it to the saw millers or to pulp and paper companies. That way he can bid a lower price on it and we get more work done with the same amount of money, so the end result is the same.

MR. RIDEOUT: Okay.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Some of the development associations are doing that too. Some of the development associations get some of the contracts, they do the same thing. We are trying to get the wood into the sawmills.

CHAIR: Anybody else?

MR. FRENCH: 2.2.01. Insect Control. I wish we had some way to do away with mosquitos. Again, in .05, Professional Services, there was $10,000 budgeted but we spent $191,000.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: When we decided to go with Dylox last year as a spray program we suggested we would do it, but we also were required to by the environment department and also by the federal agencies that were involved - Health and Environment Canada - to do monitoring studies of the Dylox spray program. We had to hire professional services in a variety of fields to ensure that we had these studies done and to give us reports. Those reports were completed and are attached to the new registration document that we have now registered for a spray program for this year and (inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: You are going to spray again this year, right?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Our proposal is to spray again this year, yes.

MR. FRENCH: We have only budgeted $10,000 again under the same heading. The spraying I would assume comes in somewhere else.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We did not know for sure if we would have to go this year with a second spray program but we are looking as if we have to, so we will have to find the funds within our budget.

MR. FRENCH: In your budget. Haven't you already announced that you are going to spray?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, we have. Our proposal is out now for environmental assessment. Basically there is a decision due from the environment department in the next two or three weeks.

MR. FRENCH: Every once in a while you get this big upheaval of people who - of course, we are not spraying stuff that I guess is harmful to the wildlife or the fish or anything in areas that we spray, are we?

MR. SMART: (Inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: You go ahead.

MR. SMART: Last year's monitoring reports monitored the impact on fish, water, rabbits, birds, insects, and the conclusion of those monitoring efforts were that, as anticipated, the spray program did not have any significant long-lasting affect on the environment whatsoever.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We were very careful with looking at which program we would do, which chemical we would use, because it is a tough decision to make to do this. Given the fact that we have a deficit in our wood supply in the Province, and given the fact that this sawfly is an insect that usually dies off after four years and it is now into its seventh and eighth year, for whatever reasons - be it the temperature or the weather; there is a whole range of reasons the biologists will suggest to you that this sawfly has stuck around - we looked at the least environmentally and human and public safety chemical possible to deal with it, and Dylox is the one recommended.

The most recent interview done with a toxicologist in Ontario is very indicative. It indicates that it is not very toxic and that it has been used to treat animals as a matter of fact, to help in the sense of dealing with parasites and so on. It is the most innocuous - and those are the words of this PhD who does specialty studies in this chemical - it is the most innocuous chemical you can use to deal with this issue.

At the same time, the Department of Health was consulted. Dr. Winnie Wasmeier is the health consultant for the Department of Health. She has reviewed all the correspondence on all the studies. She feels quite comfortable with this going forward. We are doing it very carefully. We are very careful about it. We are hoping that this is the last year because our National Forestry Service and our Provincial Forestry Service are working together on an alternative. They are hoping to have it developed - which is non-chemical - in the next twelve months. Within the next twenty-four months but maybe within the next twelve months we will be in a position to have developed an alternative.

Thank you.

MR. HUNTER: Minister, in 2.2.02.03, there is a big difference in the budgeted last year and the actual revised spending figure there. What caused the big difference in that? Also, the salaries there too. Is that due to forest fires?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: We had more than we anticipated?

MR. K. AYLWARD: More than we anticipated, yes.

WITNESS: More this year.

MR. K. AYLWARD: There may be more this year. We are hoping not, but we did have more.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: At this rate (inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: 2.2.02.04, also in that same section, the difference in Supplies. What supplies would that include? It went from $189,800 to $771,200.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We supply food for the firefighters. This would have been a lot of extra people we would have brought on. The pumps, all the different equipment. We had to purchase a lot more mobile equipment to have available and a lot more maintenance, hoses, feeder hose and so on. Supplies, construction supplies, setting up in areas, the fences for depots, batteries, purchase of mobile radios, and that type of thing.

MR. HUNTER: Are these figures higher than average and higher than normal?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: If you look at the fact that we had to increase the overall budget for it because of the fact that we had so many fires in different locations, then if you average it out it is probably about the same.

MR. HUNTER: Because for 1999-2000 you budgeted basically the same as you did for the 1998-1999 budget. Shouldn't there have there been an increase in that, or do you absorb that through other (inaudible)?

MR. K. AYLWARD: We got a special warrant for that last year. We would have gone to Treasury Board to get a special warrant because you cannot predict how many forest fires you are going to have or how big a season you are going to have. Previous to this, I think we were within the budget. For the number of years previous we were within our budget that we had projected. We are hoping this year that we will not have to but if we have to we will, in the sense of making sure we have enough resources.

MR. RIDEOUT: Moving into Wildlife, 3.1.0, this is an opportunity perhaps to ask the minister to tell us something. At least since I was here last, and over the last few years, I guess, the protection services of wildlife, fisheries, and forestry and all that, I understand, has been kind of merged into one core now of enforcers and protectors of various resources. From the minister's perspective, as the minister responsible for wildlife, can you tell us how this is working out? Whether it has been in force now long enough to be able to have some kind of analysis done as to whether or not wildlife is being properly protected, better protected or less better protected? Is there any sense yet as to how this is working out? I like the idea.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you for the question. We think it is -

MR. RIDEOUT: I proposed the idea back in 1989. I'm glad to see the minister ran with it.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We did read your manifesto. We went back and looked at it just to make sure we had it right.

MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, that is right.

MR. K. AYLWARD: No, we do appreciate the (inaudible) suggestion, (inaudible) from the idea carried forward.

It made sense to bring them both together to see if we could do it. Really, it is an expansion of resources with your existing personnel to give them some training in both areas. They are in the field so it allowed that to occur. The analysis so far has been very positive, actually, and it has been well received by the public. We call them conservation officers, and that is the right word to use because it puts out there the right view that a lot of what we are doing is conserving and at the same time using it on a sustainable basis. They are doing a lot of education. They are doing a lot of programs in schools. There are a variety of initiatives that they have undertaken. So far, from our point of view, from where I am sitting, it has been pretty positive.

We do have an issue where we have to look at our wildlife resources and our evaluation there of making sure we have enough research and so on. We are looking at that carefully to make sure that is not lost in our effort to have everybody trained and so on in each other's field. Other than that, I think it has been a pretty good success.

Some people alluded to the Newfoundland ranger type of event and that is what we are trying to get to, so it is looking very positive.

MR. RIDEOUT: Good. I am glad to hear that.

On wildlife, can the minister take a few minutes to tell us what the state of the big game populations are in the Province now, particularly moose and caribou? Do we have any annual studies under way? I believe in a number of areas last year there were actually reductions in the moose quota. Are we continuing population evaluations now on a yearly basis and so on? How are things going in that regard?

MR. K. AYLWARD: We are looking at now the next round of further evaluations and further studies in each of the areas, counting and so on, in a number of units. We are basically about status quo from last year, what it is this year, about 100 less big game.

MR. RIDEOUT: One hundred less?

MR. K. AYLWARD: One hundred less, out of 28,000.

MR. RIDEOUT: That is a negligible -

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, 100 less moose and more caribou, so we have 630 more caribou and 100 less moose. There are 28,000-odd moose and also 6,700 in caribou. Overall, the population is up but we are going to undertake a round of further research to make sure that we have a good sustainable resource.

We have identification in some areas from some hunters that they are having problems, and in other areas we do not have a problem at all. So far, she is stable. That is what our officials tell us, pretty stable, but we are going to look at our further evaluations that we have to keep doing on an on-going basis, really. So far it has been very positive and very stable.

The outfitting industry is still receiving 10 per cent when it comes to big game, and they are allocated by Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

MR. RIDEOUT: The caribou brain worm that created a problem for some of the caribou herds in the Province - I suppose most of us saw the interesting documentary on CBC not long ago. Honestly, I did not know that could be traced back to the reindeer that Sir Wilfred Grenfell brought to this Province in an effort to do some good. It really shows that when you start fooling around with bringing things in, you never know, you could be doing some heck of a long-term damage. I am sure it was not wilful or meant to cause any harm but in reality it has and it has hurt the population indigenous to the Province.

Can the minister tell us what the latest research is? Are we able to do anything to prevent or eradicate it? Are we able to do anything to eradicate the disease or, barring that, is there any prevention possible?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, it is an issue of concern for us, a big time concern for us. Shane Mahoney, our director of research, has been very -

MR. RIDEOUT: A very good man.

MR. K. AYLWARD: A good man, one of the top in North America. He is one of the best. As a matter of fact, he did a narration for the BBC in collaboration with National Geographic three years ago on oceans here, about the fish resource, and it has won seven or eight international awards. He is top gun and he has been doing a lot of evaluation for us as to what we can possibly do. Maybe Bob or Mohammed may have something to add to that because I need to get a further update on it myself actually.

DR. NAZIR: Yes, we have one professor from Ontario engaged in research. We have Memorial University, some of the scientists involved. Shane Mahoney is heading that effort. So all our efforts at this time are in trying to understand the causes of this spread, or how it behaves. It has been there in the past. It has increased in the past and declined in the past, so hopefully it will stabilize.

At this time there is no cure as such but it is related to habitat, it is related to snow conditions, it is related to the size of the herd. So we are studying all those causes and hopefully we will have a better handle on understanding the disease and how it spreads, and we may be able to intervene at some stage. At this time we are totally depending on nature but this has been mostly a problem on the Avalon recently.

The herd maximum was around 7,000 and now it is down, but when you look at the overall population of the Province it is up, including the Avalon herd. That is why almost 700 animals more were allocated for hunting this year as compared to last year. So overall our populations of both caribou and moose are very healthy. They are close to historical peaks. Generally they are doing very well.

There will be pockets of trouble here and there which we will have to learn to live with in nature. We depend on natural ecosystems and we depend on natural processes, so there is not much of an intervention we can afford. We simply like to understand.

The best way we can control is to manage the herds in such a way that the populations are in balance with nature, in balance with the ecosystem, in balance with the homes they lived in, and in balance with the food they eat. That is where our efforts are.

MR. SMART: I gather, Mr. Rideout, it never really goes away. What happens is that the caribou eventually become immune to the effects of it, and they get used to it. It is not that the brain worm goes away, it is just that the caribou can deal with it more effectively after they go through so many cycles or generations. With the help of Dr. Murray Lancaster and Shane Mahoney who bring a lot to that issue, we will monitor it. I am sure that eventually it will run its course the same way as it did through all the other caribou herds as you come down from the Northern Peninsula where the reindeer started.

MR. RIDEOUT: On black bear, I do not know if there has been a substantive inventory of black bear done since Shane Mahoney did one a number of years ago. I believe he went off and lived with them for weeks at a time. Can the minister tell us what the population of black bear is like? Number one, is it too healthy? Number two, are people taking advantage of black bear licences to hunt black bear? Is it a species that is attractive to - if it is not attractive to our own native people in terms of hunting, is it attractive to outsiders? Are we marketing black bear as part of the overall hunt?

MR. K. AYLWARD: That is an issue in the last year that we have taken a lot of interest ourselves, and also it has attracted a fair bit of attention. The non-residents like the bear hunt. They are strongly interested in it. The resident population is not so much interested in it.

MR. RIDEOUT: I suspected that to be the case.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Most of the demand comes from the non-resident. There was a question about people using the bear hunt to get involved in further hunting activity in the Province. We have reduced from two to one now what you are allowed to take, in the sense of non-resident, per trip.

Our bear population is very healthy. We had a briefing with Shane Mahoney a few weeks ago and he and the department are doing a further evaluation. The population itself is very healthy. It is really one of the best black bear populations in North America. It is well regarded and very healthy. We just have to ensure that we do not get too much demand for it.

Ontario just banned, I believe, the black bear hunt.

DR. NAZIR: The spring hunt.

MR. K. AYLWARD: The spring hunt, sorry, so there is some hunting pressure from non-residents, from some of the outfitters, that is starting to come aboard. We are going to be precautionary in how we approach that, but it is a very healthy population.

MR. RIDEOUT: One final question on the wildlife matters. The Georges River caribou herd used to be a very topical item at one time, particularly when they were going over canyons and drowning themselves by the tens of thousands and so on. Is that herd still a very productive and prolific herd, or is it starting to decline or what? It was up to around a million animals, as I recall, back a few years ago. I do not seem to have heard anything about the Georges River caribou herd in years.

MR. K. AYLWARD: I appreciate the question. It is the largest caribou herd on the planet, that we have in the Province.

MR. RIDEOUT: Did you ever see it moving?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I saw it moving. I went up last year in a chopper and we collared so many. Our wildlife biologist took us up to go see them where they were, and they tracked them. We came upon this hill and the whole hill started to move. It is just an absolutely amazing site to see. They are more than 750,000 strong, basically.

MR. RIDEOUT: So they are still healthy?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Extremely.

MR. RIDEOUT: I thought they would be starting to destroy a lot of their habitat by now, but I guess they have such a wide area to range.

MR. K. AYLWARD: A wide area to range, and they are moving around and changing their migratory patterns around. They migrate right into Quebec, right across Labrador into Quebec, and then come back in, so there is a joint kind of effort on both governments to monitor the herd.

There is a concern that in the next while down the road they might crash or they might have some problems, but so far it has been growing in strength. It is a spectacular herd to see.

As a matter of fact, the Quebec wildlife service has been able to put it on the Internet. You can turn on the Internet and, with the collars, track them moving around.

MR. RIDEOUT: Is that right? What is their Web site? I will have to look for that.

MR. K. AYLWARD: It is on the Web site. We are looking at doing the same thing, actually. It is great for kids and education but it is something that we want to do some more broadcasting about because it is just a spectacular herd. It is great for tourists and it is great for potential commercial production, which we are looking at.

MR. RIDEOUT: Tell me, are Labrador Inuit doing any commercial marketing on that herd now - or slaughtering on that herd now?

MR. K. AYLWARD: No, but we have a commercial operator for two now?

WITNESS: They are not Labrador Inuit.

MR. K. AYLWARD: That are not Labrador Inuit but they have an agreement.

MR. RIDEOUT: They are not out of Nain? They were doing it out of Nain at one point.

MR. K. AYLWARD: They were, but they are not.

MR. RIDEOUT: Not any more?

MR. K. AYLWARD: No.

MR. RIDEOUT: Who is doing it now then?

MR. K. AYLWARD: There is a company in Goose Bay.

WITNESS: There are two actually. Randy Badcock has a butcher's shop.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Randy Badcock has a butcher's shop; Uncle Sam's Butcher Shop still. He had about fifteen people last year working. The Innu were doing the harvesting. There is also a gentleman in Lab City, in Lab West, who also has an allocation, but they do arrangements with the Innu for the hunting.

MR. RIDEOUT: Anybody else? No? Keep going?

The Green Plan in Capital, 4.1.04., over on page 136, what happened? We had a budgeted amount there last year and did not end up spending it for whatever reason. Then there was no budget.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. RIDEOUT: That is Grants and Subsidies that I am talking about now. There was no budgeted amount this year. Has the program greened itself out of existence? What is the story on it? Or are we so green we cannot burn?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Good question. We were hoping for a federal-provincial agreement and we did not get the agreement with the federal government. That is basically where it is.

MR. RIDEOUT: Okay.

CHAIR: Mr. Hunter.

MR. HUNTER: Minister, there is one question that I would like to ask you concerning 4.1.02., Total: Limestone Sales. Is that the sell of limestone?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: Wouldn't that figure be too low for a province like this? Is that out sold to the farmers?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Pardon?

MR. HUNTER: This limestone, this is sold to farmers is it?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Farmers, yes.

MR. HUNTER: It seemed like an awful low amount that farmers would be purchasing. Is there a reason for that?

MR. K. AYLWARD: We have to have certain areas -

MR. HUNTER: Are farmers using limestone as much as they should be?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Well, this program has been in place for a number of years. Marty Howlett, do you want to comment on that?

MR. HOWLETT: No, the amount there has been sufficient. We had previous years where we had higher amounts when farmers were into more land development, bringing in new land, which requires a fairly large tonnage of limestone. That one there provides us with about 5,000 tons roughly, per year, of bulk limestone which we sell to farmers for $25 per ton and the balance we pick up out of that program. So the farmers do pay and that is the revenue that shows up, 140.

MR. HUNTER: So is that a regular amount that farmers would use in a year?

MR. HOWLETT: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: So it is not a low amount?

MR. HOWLETT: No, it is not a low amount. In the past three or four years that has been sufficient.

MR. K. AYLWARD: If we get some more interest we would bring some more in. We are looking at what we would do there.

CHAIR: I think that is about it, unless any other Committee member has any questions. Shall we start and call them?

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to thank the minister and his officials, on behalf of my colleagues, for being cooperative and forthcoming. We are not going to try to reduce the minister's salary or anything like that, so he can have his budget.

MR. K. AYLWARD: I appreciate it, Sir. You are kind.

CHAIR: I move that headings 1.1.01. through 4.6.01. be carried, without amendment.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 4.6.01., carried.

On motion, Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: I want to make a motion to adjourn. Before we do, I would like as well to thank the minister and his officials for coming tonight. It is a beautiful night out there, and I am sure you could have been doing other things but we appreciate you being here.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the dedication shown by the members of the Committee to be here on this sunny evening. The two gentlemen who did not get the supper, a round of golf is complimentary on behalf of the minister at a point in time here.

WITNESS: When do we pick up the pass?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I will let you know, not a problem.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. RIDEOUT: (Inaudible) arrange it to go ahead at 5:00 tomorrow evening, so I will leave it to you.

CHAIR: The rest of the Committee are in agreement, Mr. Rideout, so I will talk to the minister tonight or tomorrow morning and we can do it at 5:00 p.m.

Can someone make a motion to adjourn?