Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Mr. Joyce, MHA Bay of Islands, substitutes for Mr. Barrett, MHA Bellevue, and Tom Rideout, MHA Lewisporte, substitutes for Mr. French, MHA Conception Bay South.

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Mercer): Order, please!

The first item of business is we have the minutes of our previous meeting, a meeting to discuss the Estimates of the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture. We need a motion to accept the minutes as circulated.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Before introducing the minister, I will ask the members of the Committee to introduce themselves, starting with our friend to the far right, Thomas.

MR. LUSH: Tom Lush, MHA Terra Nova.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Ralph Wiseman, MHA Topsail.

MR. RIDEOUT: Tom Rideout, MHA Lewisporte.

MR. HUNTER: Ray Hunter, MHA Windsor-Springdale.

CHAIR: Bob Mercer, MHA Humber East.

I am sure you know the procedure that we will follow. Just before we do Eddie Joyce, Member for Bay of Islands, is sitting in this evening replacing...?

MR. JOYCE: Percy Barrett.

CHAIR: Percy.

MR. JOYCE: As usual.

CHAIR: The process that we will follow this evening is we will ask the minister to open the deliberations with opening comments. We will then ask the Vice-Chairman, which for the purposes of this evening will be Mr. Hunter, to respond and then we will ask other members of the Committee to ask questions alternating back and forth until all the questions have been exhausted or the members themselves have become exhausted, whichever comes first.

The way in which we will do the Estimates, which was agreed upon in yesterday's meeting, is that we will do all of the discussion and debate under heading 1.1.01, which will allow the members free range to ask any questions that they wish when it becomes their turn. That is the process we will follow, so if the Clerk would call the first head.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Mr. Minister, welcome to the Committee. I ask you, if you would, to introduce your officials and to remind your officials that when they speak into the mike that they clearly state their name for the purposes for the gentleman standing up here being ever present and doing the recording for Hansard.

Mr. Minister.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It is a pleasure to be here. It is always one of my pleasures to be here at the Estimates Committee to face the questions of such intelligent members of the House of Assembly. I always look forward to the task. I hope that you had a good supper, whoever was attending that supper. I couldn't get there myself, I had a soccer game to go to. There are certain things that come ahead in life and that is where I was.

I want to thank you for the opportunity. Len Clarke is right behind me here, he is the Director in our Financial Operations, or looks at finances for us; Dr. Mohammed Nazir, to my left, is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Forestry and Wildlife; Martin Howlett, further to the left, is our Assistant Deputy Minister of Agrifoods; and Bob Smart is the Deputy Minister of the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

I just want to take a minute for a quick opening statement. This department is a department that is really everywhere in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. It is a department that, I believe, is taking on more value on a continuous basis in the rural economy. There are a lot of challenges with the management of these natural resources that we are dealing with, but there is also a lot of very good opportunity starting to come out of it. In the forest sector we have seen some major advances by the sawmill sector, where a lot of new technology has been added and we are getting a better value, and more value, in the forest sector.

The paper companies themselves are investing a lot of money. This year it will be about $45 million between the three paper mills of capital investment, which is a high amount of money, but with that also, as I said, the sawmill sector has been growing. We also, on the Island, have a deficit in our wood supply which is a challenge for us to overcome. We are looking there at the possibility of a de-inking operation, we are evaluating with the companies the economics and feasibility of a de-inking operation which would certainly help us on the Island portion of the Province for the long-term.

That sector, while it has challenges, is a big opportunity and it is a big employer in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. We face challenges with making sure the land base that we have is protected, making sure that, at the same time, with the wildlife resource that we have, that we are also ensuring the protection of our wildlife resource while we carry on the other activities.

On the agrifoods side, I believe right now is probably one of the most exciting times that we have had in agrifoods development. We have more proposals now to our department than I have ever seen since I have been there in two-and-a-half years. These are a wide variety and a diversified group of proposals, different types of agrifood development, nutraceutical development that is just starting to take off, different sectors that are organizing themselves, that are putting game plans in place. This really bodes well for the future in the short term and long term because these sectors are organized and they are coming forward. They are not just asking in a disorganized way, they are asking in an organized way for some resources and we see some very decent opportunity in rural Newfoundland and Labrador arising out of diversification. There is a whole different range of sectors that are starting to move in that area.

On the overall, the other section of this department which doesn't get talked about too much is inland fisheries. The department has the responsibility for inland fisheries, the licensing aspects of our rivers, and that resource is a tremendous resource for our Province. We have the largest number of Atlantic salmon rivers in North America:160 to 170 rivers scheduled. It is a great resource and we are looking at ways to get more opportunity for our people with that resource, in a tourism way. The tourism industry there is a very great possibility with those resources, but again they have to be taken care of.

Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure to be here. I am going to leave it at that and entertain any thoughts or questions on any issues. I look forward to it.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Ray, if you could ask your questions and then we will go on to Tom Lush.

MR. HUNTER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Minister, department heads, and Estimates Committee.

Mr. Minister, I believe that Newfoundland and Labrador today has a big challenge ahead of us with respect to forestry especially. With sustainable forest management requirements now, it is difficult to balance between who harvests what resource we have. I believe that the resource we have today is certainly being profitable with respect to the paper companies. It seems like they are having quite a big investment, increased production and increased profits over the past couple of years, and I believe this department has to be really responsible to make sure that this continues.

Having said that, Mr. Minister, I am very concerned about the small sawmill operators in Central Newfoundland. I get a lot of calls from individuals who are very worried over their livelihoods being taken away because of the accessibility of the timber resource, particularly close to their communities and close to their operations.

I do not know if the minister has any plans to address the local sawmill operators in Central Newfoundland, but I do hear a lot from them and they are having quite a bit of trouble getting suitable answers from your department. I am wondering if you have plans in the near future to address some of the concerns about these operators on their wood supply, particularly one Baxter Butt in Springdale and Beothuck Logging in Triton, which operates on the Trans-Canada, just outside South Brook there. They have been calling me, concerned that their operations are being jeopardized. In rural Newfoundland today we have to try to sustain employment for the smaller communities, so could you bring me up to speed on what is being done for the small sawmill operators, particularly in Central Newfoundland?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for your question. We are working on a strategy to get a long-term plan in place that allows sawmill operators who are serious about staying in business and want to stay in business, and who want to advance.... We are looking at ways now and we have identified, really, a strategy to do this, where we can get some longer-term commitments from, for example, the limits that Kruger has and Abitibi has - that the long-term commitments be given to sawmill operators. That has been the goal, I think, of the department for a long time. A number of those arrangements have evolved and have worked out for a fairly large number of sawmill operators, but some are having a struggle because they seem to have trouble in negotiating with those companies.

Our Crown land operations overall, for the most part, are in fairly good shape in the sense that whatever we have in Crown land we try to push through sawmills; but the challenge is, there is a deficit there. In some areas we have had a reduction in the AAC, the Annual Allowable Cut, so it is a challenge to ensure that they can have an appropriate wood supply.

We have been looking at each case. A number of them we have worked out in the last year. As a matter of fact, I think on Abitibi lands it is fair to say that they have been fairly cooperative and that a number of the major sawmills are straightened away in a sense of their security, they feel much better. Their production levels have been very strong, they have been investing in their plants. As you have indicated, there are two of those and one in particular which we have checked on, and I was checking on it again today. We will have some more information on that for you tomorrow. Mr. Butt in Beothic is another one that has been ongoing.

The future for this industry and for those sawmillers is going to be a challenge, but we are dealing with the two major forest companies. What we are saying to them is that it makes much better sense to have as much wood go through these sawmills as possible, but we are also saying to the sawmills that the way they have been doing things needs to change also, for a better utilization of wood. It has been a two-pronged approach.

We are looking at a strategy now which could be a lot more aggressive in the next six months, it could be fairly aggressive in the next six months, in working out longer term arrangements. In some areas the AAC is a challenge because it may have been reduced and I think that is the case there, where we are talking about. Every effort is being made to get a wood supply that they can count on for the longer term. In certain situations there will be times when we are going to have to all sit down and try to figure out a solution to it. That is the approach we have been taking to it.

Any comments on that deputy, or anyone? No one? Okay.

MR. HUNTER: One particular sawmill operator brought to my attention that some of the larger sawmill operators, or the integrated operators, were being favoured over him, particularly in one area that he had been trying to get wood for a long period of time. Wood wasn't allowed to be cut, but all of a sudden now this other operator is in cutting that wood. He has questioned the reason why he couldn't cut it when he was told that he wasn't allowed to cut it because the department didn't want it cut at the time. Now another operator is in cutting it. That might be something that you might have to look at for that operator.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, I was just reading over the Agriculture Income Disaster Assistance program for farmers. It says here that Newfoundland and Labrador received $2.35 million annually out of a $1 billion fund set up by the federal government for the safety net, which was split $665 million for basic Safety Nets, and $435 million for Agriculture Income Disaster Assistance program. I am wondering: What is Newfoundland and Labrador's position with respect to percentage of production in Canada? This amount of $2.35 million, what percentage is that compared to the percentage of production? It seems like a small amount of money with respect to $1.1 billion. Is this money going to be Newfoundland's only allocation of funds from that amount?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thanks very much for the question, Ray.

I will give a comment on it and then I will ask Marty Howlett or the deputy to comment on this. When you look at the Canadian scale of agriculture we show up like a small blip, I believe, compared to Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, Quebec and even Nova Scotia. I think in Newfoundland and Labrador we probably have 900 to 1,000 farm units. They may have nine times that in Nova Scotia. The way that formula is calculated, a lot of it is on - there is crop insurance involved there, protection for farms when they get into some disasters, as the West is going through right now. It is based on an average income level over the last three years. These are all calculated out. They measure up where each of the sectors in each province are and the contributions they make and a formula is devised.

Would you comment on that, Mr. Assistant Deputy?

MR. HOWLETT: Thank you very much, minister.

The Safety Net (inaudible), I guess, for Canada is broken into two envelopes. One is called an AIDA program which is the $415 million you talk about, and with that one the money follows the hurt. In Saskatchewan and Manitoba, for instance, this year where they had a real problem in grains, that is where most of the money would go. The $665 million is in what we call the Safety Nets envelope number one. That is where our $2.35 million comes from. Before the recent allocation, Newfoundland's piece was $1.2 million, so we have increased our allocation from $1.2 million to $2.35 million. That is the biggest increase in the country to any province out of the new allocation. That roughs out to almost a 100 per cent increase. A lot of the other provinces probably would range anywhere from maybe a 15 per cent, 20 per cent to 25 per cent increase.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Further to that, we will put so much matching dollars in there. I think it is around 30 per cent. This year we will have close to $4 million to allocate for the development of agrifoods in the Province which is more than we have had in a long time for this type of agreement. Nova Scotia may have received $5 million to $8 million out of this whole thing, but their industry is bigger. Our industry is growing but we use these monies in a very flexible way, and these are grant dollars mostly, I believe, where we can allocate to different sectors. We have had very good take up on this. The increase in funds this year is very welcome and it is going to help us out there this year do a lot more in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. It is a good program and if we had more the better, but this year we will have more to allocate which is very positive.

MR. HUNTER: I also recognize the fact that the silviculture program has been increased by a couple of million this year plus there is probably more interest amongst the paper mill operators to get involved in silviculture this year. That is certainly a big plus this year, Mr. Minister, and I am happy to see that.

I am not quite so happy to see, when we get into the Estimates on the tree nurseries, that it has been pretty laid back for the last few years. Is there going to be any point in time in the near future where we will see a lot more activity being added besides what your increase for this year? Is there going to be more activity at the nursery, particularly the one in the Bishop's Falls area?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Hunter, thanks very much for the question.

We have been looking at the tree nursery, looking for ways to expand, actually to diversify that effort there. As a matter of fact, our cranberry development is now going on there. If you have not had a chance to go through there in the last few months, I would encourage anybody who is traveling towards Grand Falls to go and have a look. How much do we have? Over a million vines growing - ?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: - a great production of the cranberry vines that we are developing for the industry this coming year.

We have taken that facility not just now for silviculture, for growing seedlings, but we are now diversified into cranberry development and there may be some applications further for that facility. It could be nutriceutical. There a number of things we could do there yet, so the department has been very inventive.

Does anybody have any further comments on that?

CHAIR: Dr. Nazir.

DR. NAZIR: The minister has already mentioned the cranberry production for the tree nursery. We are producing about 7 million trees and about 1 million cranberry vines. In addition, we are investigating now diversification into faster growing native as well as exotic species in Newfoundland.

There is a program being developed. We are doing it locally, as well as participating at the national level. We are looking at more faster growing species such as scotch pine, our own white spruce, some of our own vines which are growing very well. They have been tested in Newfoundland, so we are diversifying. If we get more funding, either through federal or provincial sources, we are positioning ourselves in such a way that in the future we will be able to respond to those increased requirements for tree planting. The nursery is beginning to grow some of those additional species, but at a small scale at this time. We are designing the program in such a way that the program can be expanded very quickly.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We are also looking at having discussions with the federal department of forestry. There is some interest by the federal government now in getting back potentially into some funding arrangement, back into forestry again, which all of the provinces would like to see them do. We are going to see what happens this year, but we are going to be having a discussion in the next few months with the federal government. If we can get some more funding from them, then certainly it would be a big help.

This whole idea of looking at faster growing plantations and different types of trees, I think, is an excellent idea. We are hoping that can take - we are going to make some decisions on that in the next year. If that if the case, it would be long term. It would be for the future, but if we can cut the time lines on tree growth for ten, fifteen, or twenty years then it would be a big help.

Of course, I am speaking here and trying to be as knowledgeable as I can, knowing that the Chairman of the Committee here is a very knowledgeable person. He is pretty quite tonight, but he is very knowledgeable in forestry so I might have to ask him a question later on myself.

Thank you.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, do you have any plans in the near future to go with a bog reclamation program? Because that is probably where cranberries have to be grown, in boggy areas. Are there any plans for doing that this year? I know last year there were some grants made available to people to open up certain areas and I do not know if that happened. Did it happen in the past year? If not, is it planned to go this year?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Could you repeat that again? Is it log reclamation?

MR. HUNTER: Bog.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Oh, bog. I thought you said log. Bog reclamation, yes. I will ask the Assistant Deputy Minister, Martin Howlett, to answer that.

CHAIR: Mr. Howlett.

MR. HOWLETT: To answer the question, yes, we are continuing to develop peatlands. Last year there was a concentration on development for cranberry production. We developed four pilot projects of roughly five acres apiece in four different areas of the Province. There were twenty acres. We have continued doing some work for private operators who are operating in sods and vegetables. We have been cleaning some ditches and expanding some of their acreage.

This year we do have plans to do some more work on cranberries. We are going to have, I think, two new pilot projects and there will be a small expansion on two the existing ones, mainly for vine production, so we can get geared up so that when the private industry - and we have some demand now - when the demand increases for vines, we will have a resource for material.

The other area, I guess, will be the private individuals and peat on farms. We also have some requests for some peat work on some of our community pastures. That is basically, in a nutshell, the plan for peat development for this year.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Further to that, the peatland resource that we have has excellent potential for agriculture. We are now going at it very hard. We have met with a number of companies, one of them McCain in particular, in New Brunswick, and they were very interested when they saw the peatland acreage that we have on the West Coast and Central Newfoundland. They were very interested in what we are going to do in the future as to cranberry development, because we have probably some of the best acreage on the Eastern Seaboard. In the development of a cranberry industry you can cut your costs by probably 50 per cent if you have the good peatland that we have, so we have a strategic advantage. We have five or six private companies in the Province that have some farming backgrounds, that have put forward proposals which we have accepted, that are going to see this industry in the next three or four years - in two or three years we are going to have an actual industry start up, and one that is going to be right in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. It can be very positive for the long term. Once those operations start - fifty years, the vines are?

WITNESS: Fifty to 100.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Fifty to 100. It is annually. Those vines - the first three or four years are to grow and then, once they start, you get your first crop. It is on an annual basis, the same vine, for fifty years. It is a great industry. It could become a great industry in this Province, we think.

MR. HUNTER: Minister, one concern that I do have, particularly lately, since a lot of people are putting a push on the firearm registration, do you anticipate any problems with enforcement and problems with a higher level of poaching because of people not wanting to register firearms and probably not applying for a big game licence so they probably will do - the poaching will increase? Do you anticipate any problems in the near future because of this firearm registration? Are you addressing that, or are you thinking about it? Are there any plans for your department to investigate to see if poaching is on the increase and the reason why? Is this firearm registration a part of that reason? Have you any plans for dealing with that problem?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you for the question, Mr. Hunter.

That is a federal policy that has been brought in. We have the wildlife populations that we take care of, and our enforcement division takes its efforts seriously. Last year there were 1,600 violations reported for which charges were laid or warnings were issued. We have been more aggressive about it but, on that issue, that is a federal issue. A lot of people have a lot of different views on that issue about the federal gun law. We will have to see what occurs in the coming year. I think it is January of next year that it comes into effect? Yes.

Any comments, Dr. Nazir? I don't know if you have a comment on if we are expecting to have problems with enforcement on that issue.

MR. HUNTER: I see in the Estimates here, you increased your budget by $450,000 for enforcement. I don't know if that was in anticipation of any problems or not.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Again, thank you for the question.

No, we are looking there to do more wildlife management work, plus a more aggressive approach on the helicopter hunting issue. We want to get at that a little more on the enforcement side. Some of those monies we use for that, plus doing more evaluations of our big game at least.

DR. NAZIR: As the minister has said, the federal legislation deals with registration of the firearms and (inaudible) regulations there, but our mandate is more enforcement of wildlife and forestry regulations. In terms of our role in delivering the federal regulation, there is an agreement between the Department of Justice, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and the federal government. Under that agreement, our department has been asked to be the field agent in terms of some aspects of the federal regulation, and that is related to the training aspects. We have a training program. We have combined the two training programs, the firearms safety side as well as the hunter safety side. That is where we come into the picture, and we are paid for our services which we render to the delivery of the federal requirements under the legislation.

In terms of what impact the federal legislation will have on the hunters or any violations, in all of the hunting communities, there is a certain apprehension that all these hurdles, all these additional requirements, may discourage some people to own firearms and therefore may impact on the number of participating hunters. So our concern is from that point of view, not from a violations point of view, because those violations would happen regardless of whether the gun is registered or not. We do not know at this time what the impact will be.

MR. HUNTER: Mr. Minister, do you plan in the coming year or in this Budget to do more in-depth research study on the pine marten? Are there any plans of getting a greater amount of research on the habitat of the pine marten? Some people are crying out that a handful of pine marten are taking up too much of the forest, and loggers are telling these people: The pine marten live in new growth areas too. I understand we must protect the pine marten. I am not speaking against that. I am just wondering if there are any plans to do a greater research study on that aspect, and is there something to be done in the near future?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you for the question, Ray, I appreciate it. In the 1930s the pine marten on the Island portion of Newfoundland was declared endangered - it goes back that far - it was declared a species that we had to be very careful with. A lot of work has been done. As a matter of fact, we are very proud of the work that has been done. A number of studies have been done, and we have had a full-time staff on this evaluation around the Province. Even in the harvesting plans of the forest that we do now, we take care to look at all these issues up front instead of worrying about it later.

We just declared a pine marten reserve on the West Coast, which is now in the process, for the next number of months, going through public scrutiny. We have a fairly large area that was negotiated with all the different line departments and the public. Our Chairman here tonight was very much involved in that process and we thank him for that effort.

A lot of work has been done, and it has been done within the environment of the fact that we are in a tight wood supply situation. It has been tough to do. People think that you should just go ahead and do it, and some people advocate for that - protect the pine marten and take fifty, sixty or one hundred square miles of forest area - but you also have other challenges that you face. The government, together with the agencies and together with the public, in particular on the West Coast, for example, has been able to put forward a proposal to protect and, at the same time, to have other activities occur. That is the goal. Even outside of the reserve, in the Main River area, we did some work with the pine marten there, Dr. Nazir. We have done some studies and our wildlife officials have worked with the paper company there to work that out, to have a protection plan in place. Even without having a reserve, we can still have protection plans in place for the pine marten.

We are very proud of the record. We have had one of the best records across the country. Our wildlife division is one of the top wildlife divisions in North America, and its level of staffing is well qualified. We have a qualified staff and they have done a great job. Probably not with enough resources, but with the resources they have they have done a great job.

MR. SMART: Perhaps I could add something? On your specific point of the impact of pine marten study areas on logging, either for sawmilling or paper making purposes, we do have a study underway in conjunction with Corner Brook Pulp and Paper, which is in fact a study that is focusing on logging in a pine marten area to determine what impact that logging could have to test the hypothesis that you can in fact log in these areas and not have a significant impact on a pine marten population.

There is an area being logged that has pine marten and there is another control area that is not being logged. You can check your population of pine marten before the logging starts, check it again afterwards, and then compare it to the area that wasn't logged at all to see, at least as a start, in fact what impact the logging does have. That particular point that you raised is, in fact, the subject of a study right now on the West Coast.

MR. HUNTER: It will be continued, ongoing?

MR. SMART: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: There is another subject, Mr. Minister, that might be a little touchy to a point, and I hesitate to get into it because I am not quite sure -

MR. K. AYLWARD: Come on with it, boy.

MR. HUNTER: I understand there are ten chicken producers on the West Coast who are left high and dry, quotas gone, investments gone, and they don't know where to turn; all of them, or most of them, will probably end up losing everything they have within the next short period of time. I wonder if the minister has any plans to look into that situation and see what can be done in any sort of way for these farmers. Are there any plans?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I was going to say thank you for the question, but on second thought I am not sure. I am only kidding, I appreciate it.

We have communicated with the farmers who are former IPL owners. We have communicated in writing to them the position of the government, but at the same time we believe that a lot has been done for them thus far. The farm credit debt, which is the federal Farm Credit Corporation, has written off approximately $4.2 million of personal debt of the shareholders, which is the twenty. That is about eleven to twelve families, I believe, Marty? It is about probably ten families over all because it is husband and wife mostly, quota holders, shareholders. That is probably ten to twelve families out of twenty. Four point two million dollars has been written off of farm credit debt which didn't have to be done when we were in this process that we are in. We were pushing for it to be done from our end to the federal government. We had been pushing for it for the last seven months to ten months in the different processes that we were in. It was pre-IPL debt also. It wasn't debt that they took on. They had it before they went into IPL. That is the significant effort.

The next question we are wrestling with then as a government is what is the responsibility that we have. We have offered to help with the transition, in the sense of the programs that are generically available with HRD Canada and Human Resources and Employment for workforce transition, and we are also taking application under the AIDA program to see whether or not they might qualify, which is a generic program again. A few of them are asking for direct contribution, a direct kind of compensation. We believe that they also took the risk like we did as government. Nobody likes to see anybody be in financial difficulty. I am the last person, I am sure everybody else in government is, but my question is: How far do we have to take the responsibility? Right now, that company is now a new company that has taken over, it is really moving ahead. We are very excited about the new ownership and the new investment that is going into the facilities. We are hopeful that eventually things may work out for the farmers on the West Coast.

The East Coast has been able to negotiate. The growers have been able to negotiate a new growing arrangement with the ACA, but the West Coast is still problematic. We are looking at different ways to try to do it, but direct compensation is a question that we have given an answer to. We don't feel we have that responsibility, but there are other things that we might be able to do. We have offered to do that and we are working with them to do that. That is where we sit.

MR. HUNTER: Those are all the questions I have until we get into the Estimates.

MR. K. AYLWARD: I want to thank you also on behalf of your - Fabian Manning and the Opposition there - for the little chick I got today. I do appreciate that.

WITNESS: What?

MR. K. AYLWARD: See my little chick there? I got a little chick today from the Opposition. I appreciate this. It helped stir my spirits today. I do appreciate that. Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Mr. Lush, and then we will go to Mr. Rideout.

MR. LUSH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I only have two simple questions, one for forestry and one for agriculture. I have a short preamble first and a short closing comment after the two questions. The preamble is this. We often hear people talk about the great resource potential that we have in this Province, that we ought to be filthy rich, that we ought not to be in the present economic malaise that we are in, that it is just that we have squandered and mismanaged our opportunities. I just want to apply that to our forestry resource. What, really, is our potential? Where are we in terms of meeting our needs with respect to our three big operations, three mills, Stephenville, Corner Brook and Grand Falls, and then the many commercial operations that we have, plus supplying the domestic need? Because I am sure that is still there. Where are we in that regard?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I appreciate the question, Mr. Lush. It is a very interesting question you have just asked. We really have a resource that we are taking full advantage of in this Province. We are getting a lot of economic value for it, big time economic value in seventy-five to eighty communities in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. We have a demand of 2.4 million cubic meters and we are able to supply on this Island, excluding Labrador, around 2 million. So we are operating right now with a 2 million cubic meter annual allowable cut and we have a demand from the three paper mills plus the sawmill industry and the domestic cut of about 2.4 million. Then you ask the question: Where does the other 400,000 come from that we are short? That comes from being brought in from Labrador - some of it off the Coast, some of it out of Goose Bay - it comes from Nova Scotia, it comes from Quebec. We have been bringing in chips from Quebec in the past couple of years to the Stephenville mill and we are value adding somebody else's resource on the Island of Newfoundland. That is what we have been doing to make up the difference.

There is a way to solve the deficit. We are looking at a de-inking potential operation. We are pushing the industry to evaluate and to look at building a de-ink operation within the Island, and if they were to do that that 400,000 cubic meter difference could be made up by a de-inking operation. Then we may be able to free up also some more wood for the sawmill industry on the Island which is what one of our goals is to do. We are also working very hard right now to get the Coast of Labrador - we have a proposal call out. The proposals are in for the Coast in the Cartwright and Port Hope Simpson areas, and we expect to be able to make decisions shortly on those areas. For the first time there is going to be significant employment and development in both those communities in forestry. With the new road going in we are going to see some access to a good wood supply. The chips can come out of there and go into the Stephenville mill, potentially. That is one of the things that we are looking at.

That resource is really developed. There are almost 15,000 people working if you look at the whole forest sector. It is a big industry, fully developed. The three paper mills are all in excellent - environmental records have been cleaned up. Millions of dollars have been spent in the last five years in each of those mills. They are value adding their wood supply and now our sawmill industry is value adding even further that wood supply, but we have a deficit. If we can get a de-ink operation potential that would really help us for the long-term, and getting Goose Bay online. Besides the Coast of Labrador, we are also working now with the Innu. We are talking with the Innu about Goose Bay and I am hopeful that we will be able to get something to move there in the next couple of years, maybe in the next year or so. There is a big wood supply up there that is over-mature timber in Goose Bay. We have to start dealing with the wood supply there. A lot of jobs can be created right in the Goose Bay region that can really help the Goose Bay area, all of the people in that region. On the Island we have a very mature industry.

People ask: Have we reached our potential? We have reached our potential in the sense that we are using the resource that is available. Can we do it and utilize it better? That is what we are looking at now. We are trying to utilize it better to squeeze out every bit of economic benefit we can get.

MR. LUSH: What are we doing in terms of insuring sustainable yields? What are we doing to insure that future generations will be engaged in the forest industry? Are we satisfied with that initiative, with that effort?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Again, thank you for the question.

In the last twenty years, the silviculture effort has been a very dedicated effort with a lot of funds put forward by the industry and by the governments of the day. That has been to secure the wood supply in the future. The reason we say we have a deficit is that we could allow more wood to be cut if we wanted to meet the demand but we would not be sure that we could count on that wood supply for the future and that is why we do not allow it to be cut.

The 2 million cubic metres that we say we are allowed to cut on the Island is what our officials, our professional foresters and our science people deem as an allowable cut that we can sustain for the future. So it is evaluated and that is sustainable right now. So, 2 million cubic metres is sustainable for the future. The silviculture work that we have done in the last twenty years that is going to start kicking in in another fifteen to twenty years will see our forests allow us to do more harvesting. Our annual allowable cut will be able to be increased because our silviculture work and all this investment for this long term will start kicking in. In the short term we have a deficit on the Island, but in the long-term we will be able to expand harvesting capability if we keep doing what we are doing with the silviculture work.

MR. SMART: Perhaps if I could just add a piece to what the minister said. The process of determining how much wood we will allow to be cut, the annual allowable cut, is a very comprehensive detailed process that takes about two years to complete. We will set a new AAC level for the next five years. We will set that new level in April 2001. The process of determining what that level should be started eight months ago so it is a very concentrated effort. It takes a lot of resources, a lot of consultations with the science community and so on. It is very detailed and that is how the level gets set.

One of the things that does not get considered and does not get factored into how much wood should we cut is this: we do not factor in how much wood does the industry want. We have a concern when there a deficit, but we do not take into consideration in establishing our AAC how much wood does Corner Brook Pulp and Paper, Abitibi and the sawmill industry want. That is not a consideration. How much can we cut on a sustainable basis? We will establish that level. If that means that the current fibre deficit for sawmills or paper companies goes up or down, well, that is one of the outcomes of it. We are driven by exactly your point, sustainability and being able to keep this going forever as opposed to cutting a lot of wood to maximize economic gain in the next twenty years and then having to pay the price for the following twenty years.

MR. LUSH: I grew up in a logging community. Nothing else but. There were two people unemployed, or not involved in the logging business. One was a furrier and he was a deaf mute. The other person said he was sick. He died, so we all thought he must have been sick. We did not think that at certain points. I just make the point that I grew up in that situation. There were six sawmills in the community six miles long, and within 2,000 feet of me where I grew up there were two saw mills. Every morning I was awakened by a tractor and whatever else motorized the sawmill.

There is almost literally today, because of the involvement in the logging industry, a forced culture shock, if you will. I am just wondering whether or not we have sufficient education programs around to inform our people of the necessity of protecting our forests and respecting our forests. We have to start with the young people. I will say this: in the community where I grew up, I know that a lot of people do not respect the forests the way they should. I believe many of the small sawmill operators and the small-time logging operations do not understand what we are trying to do, and do not understand the significance of having a well-managed forest.

I just wonder to what extent - we are engaged in educational programs, I think, for example, again in Glovertown and Gambo, in that area, where we have forestry offices - and whether or not some of our people should not be involved in going to the schools if we do not have it in the program. I can see, if I were a teacher there, using these people, utilizing the forestry people, to come in and lecture to the high school students and the other students, to inculcate into them the necessity of caring and managing our forests, because that is where it has to start. I just wonder what kind of an effort we are putting on educationally, if you will, to ensure or to help us achieve the goals that we are trying to achieve.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Again, thank you for the question, Mr. Lush. It is a good question.

There is a lot of work being done. We are redeveloping a new Web site for the Internet - forestry and wildlife - and we are going to have a very lively Web site that people can access from schools, at home and so on, because that is one way to really make that information available to everybody in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

Our officials are in the field. We are very much emphasizing that they get into the schools, and a number of them are doing it. We are also going to be coming this summer with an education awareness program, amongst a number of lists of other initiatives, that we are calling Forest Renewal 2000. We are looking at a program of interagency initiatives, working with the federal departments on this, where we will do some advertising about the forest industry, talking about how the wood supply helps our economy, how we need to take care of our wildlife resources and so on. We are looking at a very aggressive kind of campaign, I suppose, to just talk about the resource and how we need to take better care of it and what it is doing for us already and so on. We will be doing that over the summer. We are also going to have a conference in Grand Falls-Windsor that is being hosted by the council, our department and the industry, to discuss forestry of the future, and we will extending invitations to all members of the House. We have also talked to the industry, the major paper companies, and we have told them that we want them to help us put out the message about what this resource is and how it does contribute to the economy.

Dr. Nazir?

DR. NAZIR: In addition to the problems the minister has mentioned, the department is also involved in two or three special initiatives. One is junior forest wardens, in which we support the young people. There are clubs throughout the Province that participate in them, get involved in the outdoor activities. They get education and environmental aspects in forestry, and the need for protection is inculcated in them and they become our ambassadors. That is one program. It is a volunteer program but we do support financially and with some technical support.

Another program we have is called EDUFOR. That means we train the teachers in terms of what type of forestry education they can offer in the school system. They would have some chapters in the curricula which are on forestry and we help the teachers deliver those. We support them financially and have annual meetings with them, the science teachers which delivered those programs.

In addition to that, we are involved in a non-profit organization called Newfoundland Forestry Protection Association. We participate, along with the two pulp and paper companies, the Canadian Forestry Services, and Newfoundland & Labrador Lumber Producers Association, through funding as well as staff contribution. That organization also runs programs which are aimed at public education for forest protection. In fact, they are considering expanding that program into a more broad-based type of educational programs.

We encourage all our staff, as the minister has indicated, to go and visit the schools, and the schools have open communications with them. They are invited to the school system, to go and make presentations (inaudible). We can always do more, but these are some of the things we are doing.

Thank you.

MR. LUSH: Now I just want to pursue the one on agriculture a little bit. Again, the question is much the same as the one that I asked about forestry. What is our potential, agriculturally? I am thinking about the growing of veggies, the traditional staple root crops. I am just wondering where we are in comparison to eight or ten years ago? Are we decreasing in production? Are we increasing? Are we standing still? Is the government encouraging people to get into agriculture, or do we take the view that there is no economic endeavour worth pursuing in that particular area?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you again for the question, Mr. Lush.

Actually, agrifoods in the round table that we had - we had a sectoral round table over in Gander I believe it was. I think it was in Gander, Bob, was it? Yes. We had a sectoral round table just a few weeks back, a couple of months ago, and we also - with the rural discussions that were held on jobs and growth by the government and also the rural committee of the Cabinet that was traveling the last couple of years, agrifoods is one of the major recommendations and one of the major areas of interest of the different zonal boards out there. We are very excited about it. There is reason to pursue, aggressively, agricultural opportunities; but what we are saying to the different groups that are interested out there is, if you would get organized we will help you. We will help you get organized, but you have to get organized.

If you look at the dairy industry, it has a tremendous success story in this Province when you have such a large geography to overcome to make it economical. We are now 100 per cent self-sufficient and going up continuously. Our production is going up by over a million litres again this year. We have about forty-eight, forty-nine, or fifty farms in the Province and they are all good, technically. We have some great farmers out there in the dairy industry. Where we were fifteen years ago, we were not self-sufficient; now we are. We are self-sufficient in eggs, in egg production in the Province, when we were not so many years ago. Now we are.

Our vegetable production can go up. There are three or four areas of the Province that we would call agricultural areas, that we are working on right now to try to get them to get organized. The Codroy Valley, everybody talks about the Codroy Valley. Well, I am working on that one personally, along with our officials, to reinvigorate people in the Valley to look at getting back into farming and getting the land freed up

We are working in your area there. We are working in Central Newfoundland, Bishop's Falls. We have a new vegetable storage facility, Central Vegetable Co-op, which now can offer their vegetables year round to the Sobey's and the Dominions of the world. We have agreements with Sobey's and Dominion that they will enter into contracts with our vegetable farmers if they can get the right product, grown the right way. They will give them a guaranteed contract at a certain price. They are ready to do that. The market is ready. The market can take it, for example, in vegetables.

The sectors that are really - for example, cranberry development. The reason we are looking at that is because the price is high. Once a person invests in it, they have a long-term future because they can get a good price for the product. If you are going to do vegetables and potatoes you compete with P.E.I. We are going to encourage people to get into vegetable production, but they may want to diversify besides potatoes because they have a big competitor. They have to be able to make a living at it. We are saying: Look at how you can make a living at this, and we are going to help you do it.

There are a lot of very good opportunities there. In the nutriceutical sector, we have tremendous opportunities here that have been identified. MUN Botanical Gardens is working us now, with the industry, to look at plant production that can be exported out of the Province. The St. John's Wart production that we are looking at, the trials we have been doing, are excellent. You look at Markland Cottage Winery. If you have not been out to Markland Cottage Winery - and we have two other wineries in the Province now - if you have not been to that one, I encourage everybody to go. It is a tremendous experience to go there and see what is going on, and to see the high valued-added product that we are getting.

In short, there are very decent opportunities. We have more applications than we have funding for, but now we have even more funding this year. We have a lot of young people looking at farming in Newfoundland and Labrador for their first time. We have more graduates coming out of the Nova Scotia Agricultural College than P.E.I. has over there. We have about forty to fifty students at the Nova Scotia Agricultural College. A lot of them are coming back and going into farm units, and they are going into Central Diaries. Look at Brookfield Diaries. Tremendous success stories in processing facilities. Now our chicken industry is getting straightened out, and that I think is going to be stable for the future. There are a lot of good opportunities, and a lot of young people are starting to look at it.

How is that, Mr. ADM or Mr. Deputy? Is that all right or what? It is exciting, actually.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Lush.

We will go to Mr. Rideout and then to Mr. Joyce.

MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have two or three areas I would like to briefly explore with the minister and his officials. Before I do, I would like to take the opportunity to thank the minister and a couple of his officials in particular who were very instrumental in helping us solve what would have been a grave injustice to a certain couple of operators in the district that I represent. When anybody takes the initiative as the minister and some of his officials did to make sure that that wrong was corrected, I want them to know publicly that I appreciate it on behalf of those constituents. It was only the minister and the minister's office could do it. I am delighted they were proactive enough and saw the right that ought to be corrected enough to do it. I want to thank both you and the officials who were involved in that process with us and tell you that it is greatly appreciated by me and by them.

Having said that, there are just two or three areas I would like to ask a couple of questions in. I noticed in the cranberry business there were some indication that there are four projects ongoing and two new starting this year. Could the minister tell us where the present projects are ongoing and where the new ones are anticipated to be started up?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I will let the ADM give you some more details on that. In Bay St. George region I think there are two sites. There is one in the Marystown area and one in the Terra Nova area, I think it is, in the Bonavista North and Central area. I will get Marty Howlett to go it in more detail.

We had an independent consultant come from outside the Province about three-and-one-half years ago who identified sites around the Province, and gave us a written report that said: If you are going to develop the industry here, you concentrate on these areas. That is the kind of groundwork that was laid, that is the plan that is in place. By going into different geographical areas of the Province we are also looking at weather patterns and seeing how the vines are going to respond. There are six altogether now and we can provide more details. They were all through proposal calls.

Marty, would you like to add anything to that?

MR. HOWLETT: As the minister said, we had a private consultant come in and look at a number of areas in the Province, a number of peat sites. He looked at, I think it was, somewhere around twenty-six sites. There are three components that are very important when you are looking at cranberry production. One is an ample supply of water, a second is a good supply of good quality sand, and the last is a good peat site.

When you go in to develop a site you have to have it as level as a table. That way it allows for flooding, for harvest, for frost control and so forth. The initial four sites were Frenchman's Cove on the Burin Peninsula, Terra Nova, Highway 490 and Deadman's Bay. We have looked at some other additional sites this year. There is another area in Terra Nova, there is one in Grant's Pit, there are a couple of more on the West Coast, and they, as we speak, are being assessed by our officials. We have had this consultant look at them and give us some recommendations on the suitability. There are two we are going to do a small expansion on. They are Terra Nova and possibly Deadman's Bay, and that is for volume production specifically. Because the volumes that we have produced - at the tree nursery we brought in 20,000 plants from tissue cultures. We propagated them to in excess of 1 million vines last year with over 800,000 being planted in the field. This is the first winter for them being overwinter. Things are looking good with them. I visited a couple of sites in the last month or so. If you went and looked at one of the sites - Terra Nova is a good one to look at - you would think you were looking at five or six hockey rinks in a row where they are flooded and a perfectly level ice (inaudible).

That is what we are looking at this year. What we have been doing is trying to follow the consultant's recommendations almost to a T, because if you do not have those three components you are going to run into additional costs and so forth. He tells us, I guess, and a lot of people, for instance, how it is in B.C. when you visit some of the sites out there. They tell us that we have a real advantage with our peat. As you know, we have in excess of a million acres which has pieces thirty acres and larger and they say you should have about thirty acres for a viable operation. The plants, as the minister said earlier, will last anywhere with good management - because basically what you are into here is water management - with good management your plants will produce anywhere from fifty to a hundred years.

MR. RIDEOUT: Thanks for that information. Could you tell me whether or not the consultant ever looked at the Horwood bogs and the Horwood-Stoneville area?

MR. HOWLETT: I could not tell you exactly, no. Because we looked at twenty-six (inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: We can get it for you.

MR. RIDEOUT: Could you (inaudible)?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Absolutely.

MR. RIDEOUT: (Inaudible) and whatever the result of the look might have been.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We can have him go look if he hasn't but he probably did, actually. He might have.

MR. RIDEOUT: I have reason to believe it might have been looked at so if you could get the information for me at some point, I would appreciate it.

WITNESS: (Inaudible) think he did (inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: (Inaudible). We will have it for you.

MR. RIDEOUT: The post-TAGS $81 million program, minister, that was finally signed up several months ago, we talked about that in Estimates last year, if I recall correctly. The tenor of my comments at that time was to try to encourage you and your department to, not exclusively, but certainly to try to steer some of that funding into new agricultural initiatives in different parts of the Province. Of course, speaking as the representative for the District of Lewisporte, I am principally talking about Comfort Cove-Newstead, but there are precious few areas of this Province where there is extremely good agricultural potential and that is one of them.

I do believe that we need to be able to take funding and put it into areas of sustained economic ability, like agriculture. My understanding is that we are still only scratching the surface in producing traditional root crops: potatoes, cabbage, turnip, that kind of thing. I think the market is unlimited, as I am told. We cannot produce enough yet on this day in the year 2000 in this Province to even meet our own needs. So in terms of creating economic activity in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, in the few good agricultural areas that we do have, what better way to create sustained economic development? I think one of the ways to do it is to take as much of that funding as you can fight, scratch and get your hands on and put it into agricultural development in areas of the Province where agriculture has a chance.

Perhaps it is more of a comment than a question, but can you enlighten the Committee on whether you have had some success in that regard, and what we might be able to look forward to in this fiscal year in terms of that and, in particular, enhancing agriculture infrastructure in the Comfort Cove-Newstead area?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I appreciate your comments and they are absolutely accurate. We are looking at areas where, for example - we say dairy and egg production, where they were maxed out we are doing well, everything is stable. The chicken industry can expand now but she is going okay, the processing is there. The vegetable side is competitive but now we have an agreement with the markets. Markets will buy. Now we are talking to the areas that are already into it, that have the land base, that can do it, and we are saying to them: What do you need to expand?

For example, with the new Safety Nets agreement which needs to be finalized through Cabinet, we pretty well will double the amount of money that we have this year: last year compared to this year, coming up this year. This is grant funds that we can give to a farmer who may want to expand a vegetable storage facility, for example. We put $150,000 in the last two years into the Bishop's Falls facility, and they want to aggressively expand that further. We are looking at those areas you are speaking about and, particularly in your area, if you want us to come out and have a look or to talk to them about how they want to expand a little further, we will have more resources.

The fur industry, for example, which is in rural Newfoundland areas - is it fox farms?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. K. AYLWARD: For our fox farms we have a strategy. We went through post-TAGS and we received about $750,000 or $800,000 out of that agreement just recently. That is now helping to expand and develop those farms, and a feed kitchen facility was put in place on the Bay d'Espoir highway.

If you haven't been to one of these fox farms these are something else. It is challenging for them but they are really coming together. That is an industry we have some money for from that agreement. We received again hundreds of thousands of dollars just about three or four months ago for cranberry development. We have proposals in now I would estimate for probably $4 million to $5 million for a variety of initiatives which are all agricultural based and they are all with organized plans - here is where it goes - and dedicated to sectors that we think - not that think, we know - that the private sector will take and run with it, and they want to take it and run with it.

It is being aggressively pursued. For example, there is an IAS committee now for agrifoods generally, but there are three or four IAS committees working on different sectors with HRD. HRD money is flowing into these projects, we are leveraging that up. We have also, just recently, had a discussion with the Farm Credit Corporation, and we said to them: We want you in the Province to expand your investment into these sectors that we are identifying. We want them on board. We have met with the CEO from Regina and we are saying: You come with us and we are going to do an MOU and they are going to agree to invest money, to set up loan programs for cranberries and for other sectors that want to expand. It is coming together.

MR. RIDEOUT: Good, and thanks for the answer, because I think it is one of the areas that you can have real sustained economic growth in rural Newfoundland and take some of the pressure off of traditional industries like fishery and forestry where it has gone down -

MR. K. AYLWARD: That is right.

MR. RIDEOUT: - in certain parts of the Province because of a lack of a resource base and so on. You can really turn, I think, the attention in certain areas where the proper conditions exist.

I just want to switch gears totally. I have one other question that I want to bring to the minister's attention. In the big game license renewal applications that came out this year there was, I believe, a big yellow sticker or flyer in the middle of the book, telling people that if they didn't have a firearms acquisition certificate, I believe, or a gun registration by a certain date you could not buy ammunition in this Province.

I would like to ask the minister, what is the legal basis for that position? My understanding is that people had completed hunter capability courses and were issued hunter capability certificates. I can't understand that it would be - I can't see that it would be the federal government intruding on the provincial right to regulate business and so on, that would be the legal basis for it. Could the minister explain this? I have had it raised with me a number of times, particularly out around the district, and I have not been able to get a satisfactory answer to it yet, to be honest with you.

MR. K. AYLWARD: On the buying of ammunition, we put that in at the request of the federal department responsible. The buying of ammunition, Bob, do you want to comment on that?

MR. SMART: We don't take ownership of the firearm regulations, or the certification and so on. What we were requested to do - given that we do send out big game hunting applications to a very large segment of the population who are presumably gun owners, we were requested to include, in the document we were sending out, this brochure. We did it as a courtesy to get that information out, but we don't have jurisdiction over or responsibility to interpret it. We simply pass the information along through our channels.

MR. RIDEOUT: Nor, I assume, is it something that the Province would be looking at from an enforcement perspective?

MR. SMART: No, we have no responsibility for enforcement of those rules either.

MR. K. AYLWARD: That is right. We do not enforce it. We enforce wildlife regulations and so on.

MR. RIDEOUT: As a courtesy to your federal cousins.

MR. K. AYLWARD: As a courtesy, and if I had known what flack I was going to get from some of the boys around the Province, I can guarantee you that I would have reconsidered that one. I guarantee you.

MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you.

Those are my questions.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Sir.

Go ahead, Dr. Nazir.

CHAIR: Mr. Joyce, and then we will go to the Wiseman.

MR. JOYCE: No questions.

CHAIR: No questions?

MR. JOYCE: Only on some of the Estimates. When we get into the Estimates I will have a couple of questions.

CHAIR: Alright.

WITNESS: There are a couple of questions that I would like to ask.

MR. RIDEOUT: You can ask them as you go through (inaudible).

WITNESS: As we go through, yes.

CHAIR: What we have done in the past is, we have called the heads from 1.l.01. to the end. If you want to ask some questions on the specifics of the details, now would be the time to do it.

WITNESS: Let me not interrupt the present flow of the Committee.

MR. HUNTER: There was some question in my mind with 2.2.02., Fire Suppression And Communication, page 129. I would like to know if the minister, in his estimates for the coming year, allowed the same increase in temporary firefighters as last year. From my understanding it increased from $50 a day to $75 a day. Will that same increase apply this year?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: So in the Estimates here there is not a real big increase in the amount from budgeted last year to what you have budgeted this year. I was wondering if it was allowed in the estimate for this year.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, it is. Basically, depending again, it is an estimate as to what we are forecasting, but if we have another hard season like we had last year then our budget will be over and we will have to - I think the $75 rate is fixed?

DR. NAZIR: The casual firefighters rate which you just mentioned, they get hired for fires which are extraordinary. If our people who are our regular staff as seasonal firefighters can respond and put out a fire, they will do that,;but if we need additional people then we have the casuals and their rate comes into affect. Our budget is designed to carry our seasonal firefighters, not the casual firefighters. Casual firefighters are added when there are extraordinary fires, larger fires for which we need additional help, and for that we always go looking for additional money though special warrants because we cannot forecast fires.

There are two ways of budgeting for forest fires. One is, you anticipate your abnormalities and budget it. The other way is, you budget the minimum ongoing budget and then look for additional money if the extraordinary fires come. Our (inaudible) is the latter one, where we budget whatever is the ongoing activity and look for extraordinary funds. If we do get a lot of fires and end up hiring additional people, money has to come through special warrants.

MR. HUNTER: Out of the Salaries, 2.2.02.01., on the same page, for last year it was $2,840,200. Is that the salaries for -

DR. NAZIR: For seasonal firefighters.

MR. HUNTER: For seasonal firefighters?

DR. NAZIR: Yes, mostly for seasonal firefighters.

MR. HUNTER: Does that include the temporary ones that you hire on, like social services people too? Does that money come out of that?

DR. NAZIR: No, we do not hire any social services people (inaudible).

MR. HUNTER: Last year, I know, some of the people called me complaining about the $50 daily fee they were getting. They were all social services people.

DR. NAZIR: When we call for people, we do not make any distinction between social services, whosoever is available.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Right.

MR. HUNTER: Yes, but the ones that came forward were a lot of social services people.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Sure.

DR. NAZIR: That would be fine.

MR. HUNTER: They did not want to work for $50 a day because they were only allowed to make $150 a month. Working fifteen and sixteen hours a day, they were complaining about it.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: Also the fact that there was not adequate transportation there to get to and fro, because a lot of the people did not have their own transportation.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: So was there anything budgeted in this year's budget for transportation and meals on emergency fires?

DR. NAZIR: We did not have any problem getting the number of people we wanted, but at the same time the rate now seems to be acceptable to the people. We try to make an effort to provide the meals when they are at a fire, but technically they are supposed to provide their own; but we do provide.

MR. HUNTER: I think the biggest problem was the $50 a day. When it went to $75 there were quite happy.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, they were, and we talked to them directly about that.

MR. HUNTER: So that is going to be in place again this year?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, the minister increased it 50 per cent.

MR. HUNTER: You don't want them starting fires to get paid.

There was another question on page 137, under 4.3.03. There were no Salaries revised for 1999/2000. It is left out there, as well as Employee Benefits. Does that mean there were no employees for last year - or employee, I guess. That was for the Farm Business Management Initiative. There wasn't anybody hired for that position?

MR. HOWLETT: That is quite right. What we do is, we allocate in that money one salary. Where the agreement was late being agreed to and signed, that was not done; so the same salary, as you see, is there for this year, as we have an agreement signed with the federal government. That is a cost-shared agreement, farm management.

MR. HUNTER: So there will be someone hired this year for that program?

MR. HOWLETT: There will be one salary, depending on the projects and so forth. What we do in a lot of these cases, we make a notional allocation and then it depends on the project approved.

MR. HUNTER: I guess the same would go for page 138, Agriculture Income Disaster Assistance. You budgeted $300,000 last year and there was nothing drawn down in the year for Grants and Subsidies. Was that program not initiated?

MR. HOWLETT: That is again a federal-provincial program. What the federal government agreed to do with us, they did our administration of the program for us because of administrative costs, I guess ours being one of the smaller ones in the country. What they did was, they paid up front for us and we will pick it up this year. Our last year's piece will be picked up this year. There was some money spent but the federal government spent it, I guess, front-end loaded for us, because it was easier to administer. So we will pay two shares this year.

MR. HUNTER: We don't mind the feds spending their money first. We don't spend (inaudible).

MR. HOWLETT: That is a good negotiation.

MR. HUNTER: That is pretty well all I have to ask questions on.

MR. RIDEOUT: Head 4.1.01., Soil And Land Management. Is there an allocation to help farmers clear new land? If it is, would it be in this particular area where you would find it?

MR. HOWLETT: No, there is no allocation in there. That is just our soils people. The only area that we have now that we could get some money for land clearing would be possibly in some of the safety nets allocation. That would only be for non-supply managed commodities.

MR. RIDEOUT: Would you mind explaining that to me?

MR. HOWLETT: Okay. The safety nets allocation that you see on page 137 -

MR. K. AYLWARD: Supply managed commodities are like eggs through a marketing board, dairy through a marketing board. Anything through a marketing board is supply managed - not a chicken, for example; non-supply, like vegetables, that type of thing. Vegetables could-

MR. RIDEOUT: That is what I am interested in.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, you want explained the land and vegetables, that you can come through that agreement. We have done that through the safety nets agreement. That is where we use funding for that.

MR. RIDEOUT: There is funding available for opening up new land and clearing new land and that kind of stuff?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, in your facility you might want to put some further storage (inaudible).

MR. RIDEOUT: Is there a dollar amount per acre now? How does your formula work?

MR. HOWLETT: I think in the last program, which is now expired, it was $1,000 per acre up to 75 per cent of the cost. I think that is the way it worked. That way the farmer contributes his share in cash or in coin, whatever makes it up.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We had, let's say, in the last three years, 300 farm units were able to get grants of anywhere from $5,000 up to $25,000, $30,000, or $40,000. A lot of them are taking advantage of it and trying to do things they need to do.

MR. RIDEOUT: Opening up a few new acres each year, I suppose?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, a few new acres each year.

MR. RIDEOUT: Good. Thanks for the information.

That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Any further questions?

MR. JOYCE: I would like to make a comment, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: Out our way, in the Corner Brook area, you never notice things until there is a problem. You never know how much it affected the whole West Coast when Kruger was on strike. As we all know, over the last number of years Kruger has modernized a lot of their machinery. Every time there is a machine modernized there is a lot more added pressure on the wood supply. On behalf of the people of the Bay of Islands I would like to commend the department for their ability to stay ahead of the demand on the wood for the West Coast of the area because if the mill in Corner Brook happens to fail it is going to be a disaster for the West Coast.

Along with a few officials - the minister, Bob, Marty and Mo - there are a few people who I have been dealing with in the Bay of Islands, and I would like to thank all you guys for all your help to help all those people. I thank you very much on their behalf. It has been a pleasure working with you guys on their behalf.

Thank you.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We appreciate it.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Joyce.

Are there any further questions from any member of the Committee?

There being no further questions I call for a motion approve the heads 1.1.01 to 4.6.01.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.6.01 carried.

On motion, Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Thank you, gentlemen.

The next meeting of the Resource Estimates Committee is tomorrow at 7:00 p.m. in the Committee room. We will be looking at the Estimates for the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology. Until tomorrow evening then.

Mr. Minister, to you and your staff, thank you very much for your courteous attention to all of our questions this evening and for the forthright manner in which you replied.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and congratulations on your appointment, sir. (Inaudible) aware of that. I told John Efford that in my next speech on this department I would be saying that this department, when you put together agrifoods and forestry, has a bigger GDP than the fishery of the Province. Of course, he really liked me when I said that.

Thank you very much for your time tonight folks, and thanks to the staff of the House of Assembly.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

The Committee adjourned.