Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Wally Andersen, MHA for Torngat Mountains, substitutes for Percy Barrett, MHA for Bellevue, and Bob French, MHA for Conception Bay South, substitutes for Roger Fitzgerald, MHA for Bonavista South.

The Committee met at 4:30 p.m. in Room 5083.

CHAIR (Mercer): Order, please!

I ask the Committee to look at the minutes of the last meeting in which we deliberated the Estimates of the Department of Development and Rural Renewal. I ask for a motion to accept the minutes as presented.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I just have a couple of introductory comments. The way in which the Committee has decided that it will handle the Estimates is to do all discussion and debate under the first head, which then allows each member to be flexible. He or she can ask questions on any part of the Estimates without having to go through them step by step. So all discussions and debate will be done under head 1.1.01.

The way in which we have proceeded in the past is that the minister will make some introductory comments. We try to limit them to fifteen minutes - with some ministers that is easy, with some ministers it is not - and then we pass it to the Vice-Chairman. In this case it will be Mr. French, in the absence of Roger Fitzgerald, and then we alternate back and forth until all the questions have been asked.

Before we do that, though, I would ask the members of the Committee to identify themselves, starting with my friend at the far left.

MR. ANDERSEN: Wally Anderson, MHA for Torngat Mountains, Liberal.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Ralph Wiseman, MHA for Topsail.

MR. FRENCH: Bob French, Conception Bay South, Tory.

CHAIR: Bob Mercer, Member for Humber East, Chairman of the Committee. Absent are Yvonne Jones, the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair, and Mr. Ray Hunter, the Member for Windsor-Springdale, both of whom will be with us a little later.

That being done, I would ask the Clerk to call the first head.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: 1.1.01 has been called. I would now ask the minister to introduce his staff and to make some introductory comments.

Mr. Minister.

MR. FUREY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I do not have a prepared text for introductory comments but I will say a few words about the department.

On my left, first of all, is Robert Thompson who is the Deputy Minister, who I am sure most members are familiar with; and on my right is Gerry Crocker who is the Director of Finance. Also attending today is our newly minted Assistant Deputy Minister of Culture, Heather McLellan, who comes to us with a sterling reputation from Parks Canada, and we are delighted to have her on board as a member of the provincial team.

I guess my opening comments would be to say to you that since I reported last year to this Committee the tourism numbers are continually showing a growth path. In the last three years we have grown some 32 per cent which is phenomenal when you compare us against other jurisdictions, and when you measure it against the very small tourism budget that we have to work with versus other jurisdictions. I think our budget, even though it was doubled this year, when you compare it to other jurisdictions we have to be very smart with our money and leverage the money up.

A couple of examples of that that I gave last year proved to be true again this year. Last year I told you about Cabot where we spent something in the order of $8 million, but leveraged up $35 million worth of free publicity throughout the world. This year, as we started the new millennium, we spent $800,000 of provincial money on the waterfront to bring the world to Newfoundland and Labrador through St. John's, L'Anse aux Meadows, and other areas of the Province. It turns out that our leveraged ripple effect of free advertising right across the world turned out to be in the range of $45 million to $50 million. An example of that would be Kevin Newman working for ABC on the waterfront going live to New York City at the countdown of the millennium with Peter Jennings in Time Square. They gave us fourteen live minutes right across the United States of America where they showed us afterwards in the demographic counts that they had some 70 million viewers, and we were captured in that fourteen minutes. It is quite extraordinary how we take a small budget, leverage it up, maximize each dollar and triple, quadruple and get ten times - in some circumstances - for our advertising dollars.

You see the payback in the numbers that are happening in tourism. A 32 per cent increase in three years is nothing to sneeze about, and we are forecasting another 8 per cent growth this year with the Vikings.

The other thing I should report is that with respect to capacity, this was a very serious issue some time ago when we began the forum across the Province, where we held a forum in Port aux Basques, a forum in Corner Brook, in Central Newfoundland, Argentia and St. John's, to talk about and bring to life the whole issue of the capacity to get people to and from the Province. Because we believed, and we do believe, that if you cannot expand the capacity you are going to choke off and stagnate your growth in tourism and in business generally; because we saw the trucking problems, and we saw the problems of movement of goods to and from the Province. I am happy to report that I have been briefed privately by the Chairman of Marine Atlantic and there have been some substantive changes coming, both in respect to headquarters, the new president, changes to service upgrading, infusion of dollars for quality service, and indeed for capacity this summer. In fact, the configuration that they are looking at this summer, which will be a leased vessel because their purchase does not kick in until next year - incidentally the purchase allows them to recover enough money to pay for this leased arrangement this summer, so it is a net wash with respect to that system. The new ferry that will come on and will be announced in the next few weeks will gain a 25 per cent capacity on the Gulf, which is terrific.

We are projecting another very good year. This is the third ace in our deck. I would like to tell everybody we have four aces in our deck: Cabot 500 Celebrations, Soiree ‘99, Vikings!1000 this year, and Marconi next year. Marconi, in our celebrations office, have started a small group down that path to start thinking about it. We have met with the Italian Ambassador. We are doing some very big thinking on this subject, because you know that the wireless burst of communications that have occurred over the last 100 years all started right here in Newfoundland at Signal Hill when that first wireless message came through.

We have had meetings with expatriate Newfoundlanders who were very high up in the IT sector throughout Washington and other parts of Canada, to try to build around Marconi not just a tourism event but an international IT event and try to focus the world on the place where this whole revolution in communications occurred and began, so that is under way.

I am happy to report that the new monies that came into the department, we were one of the few resource departments to capture new money this year. Most of the new expenditures you saw in the Budget went to health care and education. On the resource side, we were able to contribute $400,000 to the Heritage Association of Newfoundland and Labrador. We bumped up sports by 50 per cent, and there may be other monies to be found for sports. Another $200,000 will be infused in there. We have contributed $500,000 to the Labrador Winter Games, and that is issued to them in trust. We have increased the Arts Council by 50 per cent, another $250,000 into their arm's length account to allow them to, under a peer review, spend as they see fit. A lot of people do not realize, but the arts community and the cultural community contribute some 6,000 jobs directly to the economy and have a net worth throughout the economy of $200 million. On the cultural side, we are building that and pushing that and trying to expand it.

We have set aside, as you know, $570,000 for the transition work for "The Rooms", which is the new museum, art gallery and archival building for which we just unveiled the conceptual plans with the architects last week. There is $40 million set aside for that; $5 million set aside for increasing the capacity of Sir Wilfred Grenfell College for a new art centre in Corner Brook. We have set aside $500,000 for the ten ports of call when the Islendingur, the ship coming from Iceland, will visit Newfoundland and be the centerpiece of the Viking! 1000 Years celebrations, to make sure we have a magnificent celebration in each of those ports. We have contributed $2.5 million to the Viking! 1000 Years celebrations, and I can speak to that issue if you want me to talk about the breakdown.

The last two points I would make is that under the payroll tax we have increased the threshold to allow 1,300 new businesses to come off the burden of payroll tax. Many of them are small tourism operations throughout the Province, I should tell you, and that is a big plus.

Lastly, we are working on the final elements of a federal/provincial agreement for cultural industries which will be somewhere in the order of a $5 million agreement over a four-year period to stimulate and keep the growth going on the cultural side as well.

With those opening remarks, Mr. Chairman, I would be happened to answer any questions you may have, or any of my team that are here can answer the questions.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Mr. French, and then we will move on to - it is up to yourselves (inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I will lead off today, rather than my colleague, Roger, who unfortunately could not be here.

I would just like to say to the minister that while we all watched the New Year's Eve celebrations from the St. John's waterfront, I believe that this government should give our national television network, CBC -

CHAIR: Mr. French, is your mike on?

MR. FRENCH: I am sorry.

CHAIR: When the officials speak, if they could identify themselves please.

MR. FRENCH: We should give CBC a royal kick in the pants because, if there was coverage on New Year's Eve, CBC, which is our national outfit, had to be the absolute worst, I say to the minister, that I ever seen. I have seen them do some foolish and stupid things, but CBC, on New Year's Eve, to me, was the absolute worst. There was certainly much better coverage on NTV; CBC had to be the absolute worst.

Minister, I think that somebody should probably put a bug in CBC's ear. If they are going to cover Newfoundland, and they are going to do a good job of it, then let's do a good job of it; because I really and truly do not believe, and a lot of the people I spoke with certainly do not believe, that CBC did a very good job of promoting our Province on New Year's Eve when it was a chance that CBC could have showcased us all across this country and even down in the United States. I have friends who live in America, who watched our New Year's Eve celebrations on American TV because there was absolutely nothing on CBC.

As well, it is nice to see some extra money in this budget for sport. As early as today -

MR. FUREY: Could I just make a point on CBC? I should tell you that I did register a letter of complaint to the CBC. Not only did they screw up and give just little snippets of Newfoundland - and I agree with you, there was arrogance beyond comprehension - but they even missed the final countdown. They were not there for Great Big Sea's finale, to count it down, the first place in North America.

I think there was a bit of friction there because they had come to us early in the game and wanted exclusive rights and we said no. We put it up on a satellite and let everybody run with it. CNN ran with it, Spanish Television - friends of mine saw it in Houston - ABC, NBC. All of them ran with it. I think there was a little bit of an arrogant slight to the Province because they did not have exclusive rights, but you are quite right. Your observations are spot on. They gave better coverage to Israel, Jerusalem and Cairo, and everywhere else on the plant but their own country, in my view. Even in little P.E.I., they chased around people on a train there for awhile and ignored Newfoundland. They didn't give Newfoundland and Labrador the prominence that it deserved, given that we would be the first ones to celebrate because of our time zone, so I quite agree with you. It was a terrible display of arrogance on behalf of CBC.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

As I was going to say, as early as today I called the department looking for information on the extra funding that is in the Budget for sport and recreation in this Province, and unfortunately I did not get the answer that I was looking for. I wanted to know if there was a breakdown done as to who was going to receive this money. Was it going to be Newfoundland and Labrador Amateur Sports? Was it going to be my old alma mater, Softball Newfoundland, Baseball Newfoundland, Soccer Newfoundland or the NAHA?. Who was going to receive this money? I was told that the decision had not been made yet as to exactly how the department had intended to spend that money. I would have hoped that, while a lot of these organizations have to get on with what they are doing over this summer and to plan for this year and into next year, the money would have been available today, that we could have said to Sport Newfoundland and Labrador: Yes, your grant is up by $40,000 or $50,000, or you don't get an increase. I would have thought that we would have been ready to do this by now. To me, that was a very disappointing thing, Mr. Chairman.

That is it for me for opening comments. If you wish I can now move into the questioning.

MR. FUREY: Would you like for me to comment on that just for a minute?

MR. FRENCH: If you can, yes. If you might, minister, could you tell us how we are going to spend this extra money?

MR. FUREY: Yes. You probably know that the director of sport, Jimmy Tee -

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. FUREY: - who is over there and does terrific work and is a terrific individual. I mandated him to come to me with a plan on how to spend the extra money. The problem, Mr. French, was that coming close to budget we had x, but has we got closer to the budget it changed to y and became more. We barely got our numbers in there on time so it changed some of the configurations and thinking over in the sport and recreation department.

I can tell you that I think he is ready to come with that plan very soon. It is just a matter of sitting down with him and saying: Here is how they propose it, here is why they propose it, and then we will let the groups know.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you.

Minister, you probably heard me today speak in the House because one of the questions I asked was to you. This really intrigues me as I go through this budget. In subhead 1.1.01.03, Minister's Office, Transportation and Communications, in the previous year we budgeted $88,900, we went up to $121,600, and now we are gone back to $88,900 again. Why is that? Is the only one whose travel list can be accessed is yours, or would it include officials from your department?

MR. FUREY: Mr. French, I say this every year before this Committee and I sound like a broken record. They have never, ever, in the last ten years kept up with inflation or real costs to do business in the world. They always pick a nominal sum and put it there. We always go over it, we always tell them we are going to go over it, and we are always sitting here looking stupid and embarrassed because it looks like we went way over our budget.

The reality is those are the real costs to do business, to fly to Labrador, to fly to Iceland, to go to Norway, to meet the Ingstads, to do the kinds of work that we do out promoting the Province. These are the real costs. It is really stupid. I keep telling them at Treasury Board - I am not saying the people at Treasury Board are stupid. I am saying on the political level we are just not being smart by putting in the real numbers. The real number that should be there is about $125,000 and I should be sitting here saying: I came in under $300,000. That is the real world, but those are the real costs. You look at entertainment and Purchased Services. I look like I have spent way up on the moon. One dinner in Iceland with the President at a state dinner over there, $5,000. One dinner. Think about it. The costs are enormous. Any time you move around the world, particularly if you are talking American currency, look out, because it is not a dollar you are spending, it is $1.50.

I am going to Ireland to receive some gifts that are made at the Waterford Crystal Factory in two weeks' time. They have built a crystal ship, a Viking ship, they are presenting to the Province. I was talking to the people today and they were saying the hotel is $700 a night. I said: That is ridiculous, just a straight normal hotel. Then we used the Embassy to get it down to $400, then we used some connections that we have here in the Irish community, and the room is all of a sudden now $350. That is still a lot of money, but that is the price of doing business. The cost of hotels in Iceland are outrageous. Even the hotels in Canada now are getting way out of whack.

MR. FRENCH: I guess, minister, you know for 1.1.01.06 you would give me the same answer. We budgeted $8,800 and we spent $31,300, and this year we have gone back to $8,800 again. It looks stupid to me.

MR. FUREY: It really looks stupid.

MR. FRENCH: If we are going to spend $31,300 this year and if it is necessary to spend $31,300 next year, I think we should have $31,300 in there this year.

MR. FUREY: I agree, and the real cost there should be around $25,000, but we had some extraordinary entertainment things that we did this year for various visitors coming. Like I just mentioned, for the Italian Ambassador we hosted a small meal for him. That is $2,000. You are right, it is not the real cost of doing business in the real world. Unfortunately, it makes us look stupid because it looks like we had a fixed budget and on the revised side of the ledger it looks like we have blown it right over the top of the roof. We really haven't, they are just the real costs in the real world.

MR. FRENCH: Further down the page, 1.2.01.03, Transportation and Communications again, we budgeted $57,300, we spent $101,300, and this year we are going to spend $57,300 again. Are those realistic figures or are they not?

MR. FUREY: Under Executive Support?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. FUREY: No, they are not real figures either, Mr. French. They are nominal sums and they could have picked any number out of the air and put it there. You see, the deputy gets called away to negotiations on the two national parks in Labrador. He has to deal with tourism associations all across the Province. He is going to deputies' meetings and negotiating cultural industry agreements and so on. It does not take long to chew up that $50,000. He is in the hundred bracket easily as we get partway through the year.

WITNESS: The two Assistant Deputy Ministers are in that category as well.

MR. FRENCH: We were not very much over, but again, under 1.2.01.06, Executive Support, Purchased Services, we have gone from $9,200 to $13,700.

MR. FUREY: Again, I would argue the same argument. You see, if you look at the Estimates even as far back as - and I remember having this debate with Neil Windsor when he was tourism minister. I would say put in the real number. Whatever your costs are, put them in, but they always, at Treasury Board, want to put in nominal numbers and the nominal numbers do not reflect the real world numbers of doing business.

MR. FRENCH: On page 162, under 1.2.02.03, Administrative Support, Transportation and Communications, we are going to spend $701,400. Can I ask exactly where that is going to be spent and who would access that money?

MR. FUREY: Seven-hundred and one thousand dollars?

MR. FRENCH: It is Administrative Support and it is .03.

MR. CROCKER: Yes, that is under administration. That is the telephone costs for the full department plus the postage costs also.

MR. THOMPSON: That also includes telephone and postage for the other two departments that we support, or is this just -

MR. CROCKER: .No.

MR. THOMPSON: It is just our department? Okay.

MR. CROCKER: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Again, in 1.2.02.06, Purchased Services, we are going to spend $216,300. What are going to spend that on?

MR. CROCKER: Most of that would be printing costs and advertising costs and also purchased repairs and maintenance for the whole department.

MR. FRENCH: Could I ask who does the advertising for the department?

MR. FUREY: You mean the tourism advertising?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. FUREY: Yes. It is a company called Bristol Communications and Bristol has had the contract, I think, for the last two-and-half years.

WITNESS: Less than that. Almost two.

MR. FUREY: Two years, yes. That is a three-year contract?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR. FUREY: So, they have another year left on their contract.

MR. THOMPSON: Of course, this is not the budget from which the Tourism account, the marketing expenditures, are drawn from. This would be for other kinds of administrative advertising. From this account as well we take repairs of office equipment or rental of photocopiers and normal office related expenses.

MR. FUREY: Yes, the Tourism account, Mr. French, you are talking about is 2.1.01 -

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. FUREY: - which is about $4 million there under that subhead for -

MR. FRENCH: Yes, I am coming to that.

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Again, it is not very much, but under 1.2.03.03, Planning, Policy and Research, Transportation and Communications, we spent double what we budgeted to spend and this year we are gone back to $18,500 again.

MR. FUREY: Yes. I mentioned earlier in my conversation the forum that we had across the Province, which were the five forums for the Gulf Ferry. You will see .05, Professional Services, an $80,000 variance; in .06, Purchased Services, a $30,000 variance; and in .03, Transportation and Communications, a $20,000 variance. That was the total cost of consultants and to move the committee across the Province, to pay for their transportation, hotels, to receive briefs, and to construct the report and put the final report in the public domain. So that was a one-shot cost.

MR. FRENCH: Yes. On page 163 under 2.1.01, Tourism, there is .03, Transportation and Communications, $376,200. Who would be using this money?

MR. FUREY: Tourism marketing, 2.1.01.?

MR. FRENCH: Under 2.1.01.03.

MR. FUREY: That is the tourism marketing group. How many are in that group?

WITNESS: Probably fifteen.

MR. FUREY: There are fifteen people in the marketing group. That is their travel expenses, trade shows and various things that we do around the world. They go and set up booths at various places. They do various trade shows: the large one in Halifax, the one in Germany, the one in Japan. These people go out and market the Province.

MR. FRENCH: Purchased Services, $4,036,300, that is going to be spent mostly with Bristol?

MR. FUREY: No, that is mostly spent on ad placement. Bristol, don't forget, because they are the agency, they take a percentage of placement and they take a percentage of the cost of actual new creative, but the lion's share of that money ends up in the television stations, in National Geographic, Maclean's and Time Magazine, the local newspapers here, the newspapers around the world that they target for us. Yes, that is where Bristol would be paid its percentage for its creative work and placement work.

MR. FRENCH: Who is covered off under Grants and Subsidies, $2,054,000?

MR. FUREY: Remember when I talked earlier in my talk about the Province contributing money to the Vikings! 1000 celebrations? That is where that money would come from, and that would cover such things as our cost share of the Islendingur. It would cover the Grand Encampment site that is being constructed at L'Anse aux Meadows, the Snorri project, the Sno Tour project, the Full Circle project. All of that would come out of there.

MR. FRENCH: On page 164, in Transportation and Communications we budgeted $58,000, we spent $57,200, and this year we are going to spend $56,100.

MR. FUREY: In Transportation and Communications?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, in 3.1.01.03. Who is covered off in there?

MR. FUREY: I am sorry, I don't have the pages in my particular book. Are you at 3.1.01.?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, 3.1.01.03.

MR. FUREY: It is $1,900. You are wondering why it is a $1,900 -

MR. FRENCH: No, I am wondering who is covered off in there.

MR. FUREY: Culture and Heritage, Heather, who is covered off there? I am just kidding.

MR. THOMPSON: The Newfoundland Museum is the main part of that budget, and all of the people employed at the main and branch museums as well as the historic sites group, and the director and related administrative staff at headquarters.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Down in the same category there, Purchased Services, $138,200, what does that cover?

MR. CROCKER: That would be the same type of purchased services; you would get your printing and advertising, repairs and maintenance, the generic type line objects.

MR. FRENCH: Grants and Subsidies, $318,700; who is covered in there?

MR. FUREY: Remember when I mentioned earlier in my talk that we gave the Heritage Foundation of Newfoundland and Labrador a one-time grant of $400,000? That is covered there, and I imagine our museum grants are covered there as well?

WITNESS: There are other grants there, yes, grants and subsidies.

MR. FUREY: Yes, that is right. Do you want me to take you through some of these, Mr. French?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. FUREY: Okay.

The Resource Centre for the Arts, the LSPU Hall, we gave them $11,500; the Newfoundland Quarterly, $16,000; Them Days magazine out of Labrador, $37,000; National Theater School, $1,000, because they take so many of our students; community museums and heritage, $81,000, which are small grants to the museums around the Province; the Labrador -

MR. FRENCH: If I just might interject here, do we have, under Culture and Heritage, a section there whereby an artistic group in Newfoundland who wanted to travel, for example, from St. John's to Port aux Basques to take part in a festival, do we have somewhere in here money budgeted where they might apply to government for help, or would they have to go to the Arts Council?

MR. FUREY: No, they would go to the Arts Council; but what happens near the end of each fiscal year when there are some lapsed balances.... For example, there was a group who came to me - I think Mr. Harris or somebody brought them to me - a group called Under Wraps and they had something like $100,000 raised and they needed to pick up $30,000 more to make the tour complete. So we made some calls to NewTel and picked up some money there and then we rifled through the department and picked up $20,000 for them as well. There is no set program - I wish there were - but we increased the Arts Council funding and they are an umbrella, arm's-length organization so we may be able to get some help there.

MR. FRENCH: At least I did not tell my constituent a lie. I told him he would have to go to the Arts Council. I did not think government had any money.

MR. FUREY: The Labrador Straits Historical Development Association, $18,000; Stephenville Festival, $16,000; Signal Hill Tattoo, $36,000; and Heritage Fair is $2,000.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

In 3.1.02.06., Purchased Services, we are going to spend $1,290,800. What is that for?

MR. FUREY: That comes under the Arts and Culture Centre. That is the theatre program for all of the theatres across the Province, when we bring various groups in, and to run those centres. You will notice there are offsetting revenues because the total cost of that is $2.5 million but the buildings themselves and the events that occur there only pick up $800,000 in revenue; so that $1.29 million is to pay for those various events that happen in the Arts and Culture Centres.

MR. FRENCH: I only have a couple left, Mr. Chairman.

On page 166, under Historic Sites Development, Alterations to Existing Facilities, we budgeted $600,000. Could the minister tell us what facilities they are going to be used on?

MR. FUREY: That is not for facilities, actually. That is going into one facility. We have a very, very sensitive historic property in Bonavista, the lighthouse. We had budgeted $600,000 last year to fix it but the problem was that the consultants told us they needed very specialized historic people to do a full analysis and to do it properly to restore it to its own vintage time. That lighthouse, if we do not move on it this year, will be lost forever. It is rated very high amongst the Heritage Association of Newfoundland and Labrador and it must be done.

MR. FRENCH: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, I thought I only had a couple of questions left but I have more.

MR. FUREY: Mr. French, there is one other point I think, that Robert -

MR. THOMPSON: I just wanted to add that we had a briefing today from the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. That is actually going to be going to tender within a week.

MR. FUREY: Great.

MR. THOMPSON: So the work will be all completed this year.

MR. FRENCH: Down in 3.2.01., Provincial Archives Operations, again in Purchased Services we budgeted $155,200. Can I ask who that is going to be spent on, or what it is going to be spent for?

MR. FUREY: That $150,000 is part of the transition for "The Rooms", the new archive museum and art complex. This is to buy, I think, specialized equipment for protecting the materials that are there. The $407,000 up top, in variance, is for salaries to hire specialists to look after this archival material before we transfer it into the new facility.

WITNESS: And for the museum and art gallery.

MR. FUREY: For the museum as well, and the art gallery.

MR. FRENCH: Will the Newfoundland and Labrador Sports Hall of Fame be in these new facilities?

MR. FUREY: No.

MR. FRENCH: They will not?

MR. FUREY: No, I don't think so.

MR. THOMPSON: Aren't they at the Corner Brook Civic Centre?

MR. FRENCH: I am not sure where they are now, Robert.

MR. THOMPSON: I believe so.

MR. FRENCH: They could be anywhere.

CHAIR: No, the one in Corner Brook is the Hockey Hall of Fame.

MR. FUREY: Could you identify yourself, please?

CHAIR: If he doesn't know by now, he will never know.

MR. FRENCH: On to page 168 - I still have a few more left - under Provincial Parks and Natural Areas, again under Transportation and Communications, $159,800, and Purchased Services, under the same heading, $153,200. Could the minister tells us again who is going to use it in Transportation and Communications, and what are we getting in Purchased Services?

MR. FUREY: It is the provincial parks and, of course, it is for our people who work in the provincial parks. There has to be a certain amount of budget there for mileage. Even though we provide vehicles and stuff, there is cost to maintain and run these vehicles and the phone services, et cetera, throughout the parks.

The Purchased Services, he tells me, includes maintenance, repairs and upgrading to parks, the T'Railway and provincial parks. Funding is also provided under Purchased Services for printing of brochures for the parks, advertising, vehicles and equipment rentals. We have replaced most of the vehicles this year in all of the parks.

MR. FRENCH: In Park Development, which is 4.1.02., in .06, Purchased Services, we have budgeted $200,000.

MR. FUREY: Again, this is a capital program to do some repairs in the parks. Did you want to know which ones we are targeting?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, okay.

MR. FUREY: There is installation of new park entrance signs at most of them; a continuation of a construction of a comfort station at Notre Dame Park, $35,000; a completion of installation of dual service at Lockston Path Park, $15,000; trail upgrade and remote campsites at Butter Pot Park, $30,000; complete the rest area and landscaping from the vandalism at The Arches last year, $10,000; install picnic shelter at Pistolet Bay Park, $5,000; instruct a new rest area and lookout at Pinware River Park, $10,000; a fire exit road improvements at La Manche Park on the Southern Shore, $15,000.

MR. FRENCH: In Notre Dame Bay Park, is that not privatized?

MR. FUREY: No.

MR. FRENCH: Might I suggest, minister, that that would be one park that the department would not privatize.

MR. FUREY: Notre Dame Park?

MR. FRENCH: It is a very beautiful park.

MR. FUREY: It is, it is gorgeous.

MR. FRENCH: It is a great spot.

MR. FUREY: In J.T.Cheeseman Park, we are going to put $28,000 in there; Notre Dame Park, $35,000 on top of what I just told you about; Squires Memorial Park, $6,000; Sandbanks Park, $18,000; Blow Me Down Park, $7,000; Dildo Run Park, $5,000; La Manche Park hiking trail, $7,000.

MR. FRENCH: Under 5.1.01.03, Recreation-Operations, Transportation and Communications again, $104,500 was budgeted. As well, .10, Grants and Subsidies, $1501,200 is budgeted, and I guess that is the grants for the sport governing bodies.

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: In that $1,501,200, the $500,000 for the Labrador Winter Games is not included in there. Am I correct?

MR. FUREY: I think it is, isn't it?

WITNESS: No it isn't.

MR. FUREY: No it isn't, no, right, it isn't.

MR. FRENCH: That would be the grants to the sport governing bodies.

MR. FUREY: That covers sports governing bodies, coaches, athletes -

WITNESS: The Newfoundland and Labrador Games.

MR. FUREY: The Newfoundland and Labrador Games. Is Canada Winter Games included?

WITNESS: Canada Winter Games preparations, the teams, for the next two cycles.

MR. FRENCH: As well as Summer Games preparations.

WITNESS: That is right.

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: The $104,500 under 5.1.01.03, that would be for people in the department to travel?

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Down in Community Sports Facilities under Grants and Subsidies, 5.1.02.10, there is $199,000 budgeted. Can I ask what that is for?

MR. FUREY: I am sorry. Where were you looking again?

MR. FRENCH: Under 5.1.02.10, Grants and Subsidies, $199,000.

MR. FUREY: Right. This is provided for a minor recreation capital grant program which will support improvements and construction of recreation facilities. Do you remember each year we manage to give each member $2,000 throughout their district? That is where that comes from.

MR. FRENCH: Under 6.1.01.10, Labrador Operations, Grants and Subsidies, there is $205,000.

MR. FUREY: That is the Labrador travel subsidy.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Under .03, Transportation and Communications, that is for people within the department to travel?

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: On page 171, 7.1.01.03, Economic Renewal Agreement, Transportation and Communications, there is a very insignificant amount. It was $52,000 last year and this year we are gone down to $10,000. It intrigues me as to why.

MR. FUREY: That is a phase down of the agreement. It has expired.

MR. FRENCH: Under .10, Grants and Subsidies, we budgeted $421,000, we spent $381,000, and this year we are only going to spend $47,100.

MR. FUREY: Again, that is the last part of that Economic Renewal Agreement. It is coming to an end. This will disappear next year.

MR. FRENCH: Who could qualify for the $47,100 that is left?

MR. CROCKER: This is cash flow on projects previously approved so this is just payouts of pre-approved projects.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Again, under Economic Renewal Agreement, 7.1.02.06, $95,400 is what we budgeted and that is what we spent. What would we have spent that on?

MR. CROCKER: This still would be a cost breakdown according to project. We are just dividing the cost between the main object of expenditure, whether it be travel, Purchased Services, Supplies or Property, Furnishings and Equipment.

MR. FRENCH: Mr. Chairman, if I might I would just like to make another observation. When I started I left this out. I didn't leave it out deliberately, it just slipped my mind.

Minister, when you talked about the ferry service between Argentia, Port aux Basques and North Sydney, I have traveled that service on quite a number of occasions in the last few years. I have family who now live in Nova Scotia so I usually drive over once or twice a year. I have to say that CN Marine, as far this member is concerned, treats us like cattle, they treat us like the scum of the earth. When you see people coming with sleeping bags, a man, his wife and two children by the hand, and they crawl in under a set of stairs to go to sleep then as far as I am concerned CN Marine does not give this Province the service that we deserve. I think we are at the last end of the mile and that is exactly how the federal government and CN Marine treat us.

I know over the last few days there has been questions asked of you in the House concerning CN Marine, but I hope that CN Marine have now got their act together, that their headquarters is eventually going to be moved to Newfoundland. This service would not exist if it wasn't for Newfoundland and Labrador. If it wasn't for us there would be no need of CN Marine. I, personally, don't like the way they treat us. I have to say, from the people who work on these ships that go across the Gulf and go from Argentia, I can only say nice things about them. I have never been ill treated on any trip that I have ever made, but the service that CN provides to this Province I think is scandalous. At the end of this year they should never again be allowed to get away with what they have gotten away with for so long.

MR. FUREY: Mr. French, I can only agree with you 100 per cent. That is why I coined the phrase ‘constitutional cattle cars.' That is what they are. They give us only what they are mandated and obliged by law to give us and that is not good enough.

MR. FRENCH: No, I agree.

MR. FUREY: That is not good enough when you are trying to build an industry.

We heard horror story after horror story on the road when we went around on the ferry forum. It was just awful. You see it yourself, like you just said. You go on with your family and go across. I used it a fair bit too, but it is sickening to see. The boats are dirty, they are not clean, they are not well cleaned, they are not properly staffed, the food is garbage, and you are tripping over people all over the place. I saw a little kid curled up on a counter in the bar falling asleep with drunk people everywhere. It is terrible. They have to clean that up. They have to make it a proper service. They have to put some real nice amenities on there for the kids. Movie theaters, get some good food on there, and make it a comfortable, joyful experience, not an ordeal. It should be an experience and right now it is an ordeal. It is a bloody ordeal. I get a pain the gut just thinking about going across on it. It shouldn't be the way it is.

MR. FRENCH: No, but it is.

MR. FUREY: I think we have a pretty good skipper in charge there now. He understands boats, he understands people. Captain Sid Hynes was a steward there twenty-seven years ago so he worked right in the bowels of the operation. I think he is building partnerships with the union too, and that is important. We really have to pick up the service and clean it up and make it first class rather than substandard. I lay a lot of it at the feet of the Government of Canada, by the way -

MR. FRENCH: Yes, there is.

MR. FUREY: - because they treat us exactly - and by the way, we should take some of the blame, too, for sitting back and taking it.

MR. FRENCH: For sitting and tolerating it, yes.

MR. FUREY: It is bloody stupid.

MR. FRENCH: I have watched these things for years. As I said, it is only the past couple of years that I have been going back and forth as often. I have traveled a few other times before (inaudible). You accept it because you figure that is the way it should be, but that is not really the way it should be. You deserve better than that.

MR. FUREY: Do you think this service would be like that if it were going between Montreal and Toronto?

MR. FRENCH: No, no way in the world.

MR. FUREY: Well, that is the issue, isn't it?

MR. FRENCH: Anyway, Mr. Chairman, I thank you, Sir, for you time.

CHAIR: Mr. Wiseman?

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I do not have specific questions as such but I certainly want to commend the minister for a tremendous job that he has done in that department in profiling the Province. I think it is only somebody with your flair, actually, and ability, who could do such - and I say that in all sincerity.

You have done an exceptional job with profiling the Province around the world actually.

MR. FRENCH: (Inaudible). With Beaton, he was trying to keep his job, Mr. Chairman.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I understand, Mr. Chairman, the kind of predicament it puts those people in who are not in Cabinet, or who do not have a hope to be in a leadership position like you are in, but that is part of the fray that we are in.

MR. FRENCH: It is a shame, Ralph, that you are talking about yourself again.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: I just want to commend you for the job that you have done, you and your staff. It is certainly paying dividends for the Province.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Is there anything else you would like to add to that flowered dissertation?

MR. FUREY: How many more of those shirts would you like?

MR. FRENCH: Give him what he wants, Chuck.

CHAIR: Mr. Hunter.

Then we will go to Ms Jones.

MR. HUNTER: I was told by my colleague here not to say anything tonight because I kept him here too long the other night, but I am going to say something anyway.

Minister, I found it very difficult trying to sell the waterfront celebrations in the rural parts of my district. Most people did not care. Most people did not see it. The problems that were most on their minds were their own conditions, where they live in the Province. Even though it may financially benefit us in the tourism industry, the fact that we rubbed rural Newfoundland's nose in the amount of money that was spent did turn off a lot of people in rural Newfoundland. I heard more negative comments than positive comments. It is not that I am totally against promoting Newfoundland, because I am certainly all for promoting Newfoundland, but it was a hard sell, I must say. That is all I have to say about that, Minister.

I do not know the department's policy on protecting Newfoundland artifacts and antiques and stuff. Could you tell me what the policy is in the department on trying to protect and keep these items in our Province?

MR. FUREY: Could you explain what you mean? Do you mean like public artifacts, artifacts that are discovered on public property or archeological digs?

MR. HUNTER: A combination of both. I can elaborate more on it. A gentleman in Central Newfoundland has thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, of dollars of stuff -

MR. FUREY: I know about that.

MR. HUNTER: - and he has been crying out for the past three or four years for someone to help him with it.

MR. FUREY: The logging?

MR. HUNTER: Yes. Pat Mulrooney is his name.

MR. FUREY: Mayor Walwin Blackmore was in to see me.

MR. HUNTER: Yes. I believe I have written your department, too, on it.

MR. FUREY: We have reviewed all of that and we have examples of everything he has. The question becomes -

MR. HUNTER: What does he do with the rest? Is enough, enough? Or is too much too much?

MR. FUREY: I understand his position and we are looking at this again. His real position is that he is getting older now and he wanted to move into the community and this is a way to purchase a house for himself.

MR. HUNTER: Yes.

MR. FUREY: We are taking a look at it but we have done a first brush on it, Robert, as I recall, and everything that he has we have samples or copies of.

MR. THOMPSON: We had a review and we are going to do another. Anything that he has that we do not have in our collection that is going to be of value we would offer to purchase, but if we have everything interpreted already then we would say, it is okay if you want to sell that to another collector because we at least have a good representation of all that already in the Province within the possession of, actually, the Newfoundland Museum, because that is the entity which the loggers exhibit comes under.

MR. HUNTER: So the policy of the department is, we only need one? Is that the policy of the department?

MR. THOMPSON: Actually, generally that would be the case. We do not need to have -

MR. HUNTER: You do not need a backup.

MR. THOMPSON: Not always. It depends upon the use but -

MR. HUNTER: Okay, I see what you -

CHAIR: Robert, you must have been a very difficult student in school. Please state your name.

MR. THOMPSON: I apologize. I am Robert Thompson.

MR. HUNTER: The point I am trying to make is that we cannot let things like this leave the Province because I have seen it firsthand and I have seen people there trying to buy it, to move it down to the Unites States or across Canada or other places in the world. Regardless of whether we have it not, I do not think we can allow this to leave the Province.

What if we had a fire somewhere, where all the other things are, and we lose it all? How are we going to get back that heritage? How are we going to get back these items to show our kids, grandchildren and great-grandchildren if we don't have the second lot?

With the federal funding, I notice a lot of the revenues that are coming are federal funding. Is it possible that we could find federal grants and subsidies to help that gentleman?

MR. FUREY: It is possible. We are reviewing the whole thing right now, as I told you, but we have a very limited budget, I am ashamed to tell you, on the heritage side. It is very, very limited. We don't have a lot of money. In the context of what we are trying to preserve and what we are trying to do throughout the Province, it is a very small envelope. I know this particular situation. I have reviewed it. It is being reviewed again at your request and the request of the Mayor of Grand Falls-Windsor. Let me tell you, we will just wait to see what comes back from archival people and the people who are reviewing it.

MR. HUNTER: I don't think he is asking for you to buy it. It is just that if someone can apply for a grant for some other organization, to set up even a local organization, to set up and buy it and run it.

MR. FUREY: I think his preference would be for us to buy it though so that he could move.

MR. HUNTER: He probably would, but the other solution is if someone else could apply for a grant to buy it out from him, that might be a way out.

Minister, your department does allocate grants for groups to attend different functions across the country, different interest groups, musical groups, and things like that. Is that true?

MR. FUREY: We used to do it under the Cultural Industries Agreement. That expired. We are negotiating a new agreement and there will be a piece there in that to help groups move around a small piece. As I said to Mr. French earlier, the only places we can really gather money now is under the umbrella of the Arts Council, which is stand-alone, but as we move towards the end of the year, if there are lapsed balances that we can take from one head and push it out into a grant - like, for example, the group that I just mentioned to you, Susan Knights group, we sent them away, the choir, and there are other groups that we helped. Mr. Sweeney and Mr. Hedderson came to see me about the Cantata out in Carbonear. We found, I think, $15,000 for them to continue their work. There is not a set pot that I could take from, unless we get the Cultural Industries Agreement back in place; but as we move towards the end of the year sometimes we do shift money around to try to help groups that are stuck.

MR. HUNTER: Did the money for the Bel Cantos Singers choir group come from your department?

MR. FUREY: I think so, but I can't - Central Newfoundland, you mean?

MR. HUNTER: Yes.

MR. FUREY: Yes, I am pretty sure; and the band in Torbay, from my department as well.

MR. HUNTER: Minister, I think guides comes under your department?

MR. FUREY: Who?

MR. HUNTER: Outfitter guides?

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: Do you have any plans in the near future to somehow professionalize the trade?

MR. FUREY: Yes. In fact, we just had discussions with the outfitting industry on that whole issue. Now licensing of guides, as you know, comes under Wildlife but we try to manage it in terms of promoting sports fishing and hunting and that kind of thing. I brought in the rules for the guides for outsiders coming in, to try to create some kind of an industry on that about ten years ago. Yes, you are right, we have to try to professionalize it more and we are working with the outfitting industry to do that.

MR. HUNTER: So you are already doing that, working towards that?

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MR. HUNTER: I see that there are new opportunities for people to go in and get trained as guides.

MR. FUREY: Absolutely.

MR. HUNTER: These people are saying: What's the point of going in to do the training if we are not going to be recognized as a profession?

MR. FUREY: Exactly.

MR. HUNTER: If we move that way then it would certainly be a good promotion for our outfitters -

MR. FUREY: I agree with you.

MR. HUNTER: - to use in their sale pitch.

That is the only thing that I have there, Minister.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to have my two cents' worth.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Hunter.

Ms Jones, and then we will go to Mr. Andersen.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

A couple of things, Minister, but first of all I would like to welcome Heather to the department. It is nice to see you join the provincial government, Heather, in Culture and Heritage.

I guess a couple of things I want to highlight to you today, Minister - and you are quite familiar with my district and the part of Labrador in which I live, and have certainly been instrumental to your department in terms of boosting the tourism industry in that area.

As you know, there are a number of concerns I would have with regard to tourism in the future, especially when you look at right now across the Province. We are probably one of the areas that is certainly in a prime opportunity to capitalize further on the industry. The new ferry system that was just put in place is certainly a tribute to the industry itself. With the highway opening up over the next two to three years, discussions with regard to national parks in Labrador, I guess my concern right now is that we do not have a body as such that is coordinating the tourism industry of Labrador.

I know it falls within the department. Just to tell you, as a local entity in Labrador we have put together a group now to look at a Labrador brand in the tourism industry, and being able to promote it as such. Because I do not think that us trying to do this on the coat tails of the Viking Trail tourism initiative is going to work for us. I think we have a brand of our own and we need to capitalize on that. I would certainly ask for your support and that of your department in helping us move that along. I guess part and parcel to that would be looking at something similar to Destination Labrador. Destination Labrador was probably the best thing that ever happened to the tourism industry in Labrador. Anyone who would have been involved in that back in those days would have seen us move from a stage of having tourism as a non-industry to where it is today. I think it is attributed to that organization and the work that it did as part of your department.

The other thing I would like to suggest to you, with the highway opening up, is looking at designating a provincial park somewhere within that area. Maybe it is something your officials could take a look at in consultation with groups in my district to see if there is a location there. I know there is. There are a couple actually that you might want to consider. I just make those two suggestions to you right now.

The other thing that I want to say is that it always amazes me when I see the limited budget that this department has in which to do the magnificent job that it does. I think that the celebrations with the Cabot, the Soiree, and again this year with the Vikings has opened the eyes and ears of people around the world as to where we are in Newfoundland and Labrador with this industry. It always amazes me how you manage to do that with such a limited budget.

The other thing I want to commend you for is your work on the Marine Atlantic issue. I think you did a magnificent job there. As you discussed with the Member for Conception Bay South earlier, this is an important issue for our Province. It is the crest of the tourism industry right now. You as minister, and your department, did the right and proper thing in launching that forum with those consultations. I hope we are going to see some results from it this year.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. That will be it.

CHAIR: Thank you, and I apologize for not giving you my full attention.

MS JONES: I noticed that and I will let it go for now. I certainly hope it does not happen again in the future.

CHAIR: Thank you kindly.

Wally, please.

MR. ANDERSEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Normally we have a process where we speak for ten minutes, so I plan (inaudible) take my forty or forty-five minutes (inaudible).

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. ANDERSEN: I have a couple of things starting out. First of all, usually we sit down to a table that has salt and pepper, but I am sure tonight there will be something else to tell the difference between the words from the Member for Topsail and the person next door for Conception Bay South, to hear their mixed emotions. I certainly know that was - you wonder where parity is in this world.

Minister, I say to you -

WITNESS: You can come back to us anytime you want, Wally.

MR. ANDERSEN: Minister, I say to you that I guess I would say the word disgusted with the Budget, not in a way to offend your department, but the work that your department does, and certainly when I look at my riding on what it has to offer. Pretty soon we will be referred to as the last frontier, where we will be the only riding without any roads, where we have the fiords, the icebergs, the Torngat Mountains, the polar bears, the caribou, and places like Hebron and Hopedale that are yet undeveloped. I know that your sources in Labrador, in people, the number you have, if you could only triple your staff in Labrador then you might be able to do some justice with the tourism industry up our way.

I want to compliment you for the cooperation you have shown. I know we have had some good talks on some things in my riding. In the year 2000 we are going to celebrate the 250^th anniversary of when the Moravians came to Labrador. That in itself should upon up the North Coast similar to what Battle Harbour did for Southern Labrador.

Minister, I too want to compliment you and your staff on the job you do with the limited number of people you have. Certainly, I know the Opposition quite often calls for an all party committee. Minister I think it is time that we had an all party committee travel to Ottawa to meet with the feds like Sheila Copps and these people to show them what we have in Newfoundland and Labrador. Certainly in my riding, where jobs are so difficult to come by, yet we have so much to offer only if we had the opportunity to provide that service to the rest of the country and the rest of the world. Food for thought. No doubt I will be back in your office in the next short while to go over some things from my riding.

Again, minister, I say to you with all sincerity that being a bureaucrat and working in Labrador for twenty years I admire you and your staff for the limited number of bodies you have that do so much for this Province that creates so much employment. Probably your department, more than any other, shows our Province, regardless of race, color, creed or culture, to the rest of the world. I compliment you and your staff and I look forward to working with you in the days ahead.

That is my forty-five minutes.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Andersen.

Are there any other questions from any other members? Judging by the shuffling of the papers I surmise that there be none. That being the case I would ask for a motion to approve subheads 1.1.01 to subheads 7.1.02.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 7.1.02 carried.

On motion, Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

That concludes our deliberations for the evening. I understand we are going to move to another venue for some other activities. Before I go, just for the purpose of the members, we seem to have agreed - and this is why I was preoccupied, Ms Jones - that the next meeting we will try to do on Thursday morning at 8:30. We will do the Estimates for the Department of Mines and Energy. I have to confirm that with the minister, but I am sure he will make time available before he has to go off to Cabinet at 10:00 a.m. or 10:30 a.m., as the case might be.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: That could very well be.

Thank you very much. Mr. Minister, are there any concluding remarks?

MR. FUREY: Just a couple of concluding remarks. Ray twigged my mind to it. We have a big issue that I should raise with you here and just point it out, dealing with the rivers in Labrador. We are starting to get pressure now for new lodges and new sports fishing licenses. There is increased pressure on certain areas of certain rivers like the Eagle River at the gorge for example, where there are bona fide outfitters, and yet people who have access to helicopters can just fly people in by the hundreds. It is really unfair. We have to try to figure out an answer to a very vexing problem so that there is balance for these investors on these rivers. It is an issue we need to talk to the Labrador members about in particular.

MS JONES: I don't know if you know, but we have asked Government Services and Lands to put a freeze on all demands in and around the rivers right now.

MR. FUREY: Yes.

MS JONES: Simply because there were so many applications (inaudible). (Inaudible) sit down and start looking at some of (inaudible). So my understanding from Minister McLean is that the freeze will be a temporary measure or (inaudible) and (inaudible). (Inaudible) guidelines on that.

MR. FUREY: We have put an interdepartmental committee of deputies together - Intergovernmental Affairs, Government Services and Lands, Tourism, et cetera - to give us a quick review of this too, because there are some problems emerging and they are emerging fast. That is one issue I wanted to just raise with the Committee. The other one, which Mr. French raised with me in the House today, is the accommodation modules for the Canada Games. Do you know if they are still available?

WITNESS: They were sold to a company outside Deer Lake. I don't know what he has done with them but I would imagine they are in pretty hard shape at this point. That is where they went after.

MR. FUREY: Do you know where they are, Mr. Chairman?

CHAIR: I don't recall the name of the company but they are stored on the Viking Trail.

MR. FUREY: EDM there?

CHAIR: In the EDM yard. I think -

MR. FUREY: Are they functional and usable?

CHAIR: They probably are but not to a very high level. Keep in mind that they were transported once to Bull Arm, assembled, brought back to Corner Brook, assembled, and taken apart again. They have been taken apart twice. They might be in rough shape.

MR. FUREY: Yes, but we can follow up for you on that and see where they are and what they are about and stuff.

MR. FRENCH: There are four trailers that I am looking for. I hope one will be used for the press, one will be used -

MR. FUREY: Do you want to just tell people what that is about, Bob?

MR. FRENCH: Yes. This summer Softball Newfoundland and Labrador are hosting the Canadian Junior Mens, and at this particular tournament we need four trailers. Not for anybody to sleep in. We need four trailers: one to be used by the medical people, one to be used by the people who handle the money at these tournaments, and it slips my mind now the other two things. We have to have four trailers on site which can be used. Another one is to be used by the press. We have to make places available for them. It is not for somebody to sleep in. It is just for kind of an office type thing.

MR. FUREY: I wonder could you rent four of them on the East Coast here for that period of time? Because bringing them from the West Coast - I saw those, Bob, driving up through my district. They are in rough shape.

WITNESS: Yes, you will get a grant for that.

MR. FRENCH: The reason I ask, minister, is if we could come up with some money to rent four of them I would be very much appreciative.

MR. FUREY: We will talk.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, sir.

MR. FUREY: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you all.

The Committee adjourned.