The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Mr. Harding): Order, please!

I would like to welcome you all this evening as we debate the Estimates of the Department of Environment and Conservation.

After the Clerk calls the first subhead, the minister may begin speaking. He has up to fifteen minutes. He will introduce the people from his department and give an overview of his department's estimates for this coming year. After that, then, the Committee members may begin asking questions.

I would like to remind the departmental officials, before you speak, if you could identify yourself so that the people in Hansard will be able to know who is answering or commenting.

I guess we are all ready now and I would ask the Clerk to call the first subhead.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall subhead 1.1.01. carry?

Minister Jackman.

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the department's estimates for the fiscal year 2007-2008.

Joining me today are my officials: Mr. Bruce Hollett, Deputy Minister; Mr. Bas Cleary, Assistant Deputy Minister for Environment; Mr. Allister Taylor, Assistant Deputy Minister for Lands. Unfortunately, the Director for Policy and Planning could not make it. He has been on a flight and delayed for the last two days due to fog and everything else. He didn't get in until some time this evening, so he spent the last two days, like I said, pounding around the airports. Also, we have Mr. Gerry Crocker behind me here, the Director of Financial and General Operations, and Ms Diane Hart, Director of Communications.

For the 2007-2008 fiscal year, a gross budget in the amount of $42,730,000 is reflected in the Estimates to cover departmental costs for the protection and the enhancement of the environment, and the management and regulatory protection of the Province's provincial parks, ecological reserves, natural areas, wildlife, inland fish, water, and Crown land resources. To offset a portion of the cost related to the revenue, $18,214,000 is budgeted, which results in an estimated net total expenditure of $24,516,000.

The gross budget for the department's four main programs is as follows: Executive and Support Services, $13,415,100; Environmental Management and Control, $8,719,700; Lands, $5,532,000; Wildlife Parks and Natural Heritage, $15,063,200.

The Department of Environment and Conservation is responsible for the Environment Branch, which includes pollution prevention, water resources and environmental assessment. Mr. Bas Cleary is the ADM responsible. In addition to the head office, we have offices in Corner Brook and Grand Falls-Windsor.

The Lands Branch includes Crown lands, surveys, mapping and land management. Mr. Allister Taylor is the ADM responsible. Our Lands Division has satellite offices in Corner Brook, Gander, Clarenville and Labrador.

The Natural Heritage Branch includes parks, protected areas and wildlife. The ADM position is currently vacant; however, we are actively looking to fill this position.

The Parks Division is located in Deer Lake, and the Wildlife Division is located in Corner Brook with a satellite office in Labrador.

Sustainable development and strategic science manages the sustainable development issues and the Institute for Biodiversity and Ecosystem Science, known as IBES, in Corner Brook. Shane Mahoney is the Executive Director of this branch.

I am pleased to report that we have several significant initiatives funded this year. Probably the most important is the funding to ensure appropriate management measures are in place to mitigate the declining caribou population.

In addition to the remaining $1.4 million of the two-year $3 million strategy announced last year to be used to study the Northern Peninsula caribou herds, there is $650,000 in new funding to test management plans related to a pilot predator strategy, and another $330,000 to carry out ongoing long-term caribou data synthesis, herd composition surveys and calf mortality studies.

Also, we have increased our investment in the provincial park system by $1 million and we have expanded the parks renewal strategy from a three-year commitment to a four-year $4 million initiative. This will mean service improvements to make our parks more attractive and to provide a range of services and amenities demanded by park users.

Funding is being provided to support government's commitment to sustainable development programs, including a round table and strategic management plan. As well, there is funding to promote co-operative wildlife projects, to strengthen the environmental process and to ensure projects are in compliance with environmental standards, and to promote and enhance research initiatives through IBES.

The department has also received $23 million from the federal government that will be used to move forward on clean energy related projects like energy efficiency of public buildings, greenhouse gas reductions through enhanced waste management techniques, including methane gas recovery and utilization, and a climate change innovation fund.

I appreciate the consideration that you will give our budget today, and my officials and I will do our best to answer your questions.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Who is going to begin now, Mr. Joyce or...?

MR. JOYCE: I will start quick.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you, Minister.

I will just go through some of the line items first, and I have a few general questions after.

In 1.2.01., Executive Support, the budget Salaries last year was over a fair bit. From last year, it is over about $250,000. Can you just explain?

MR. JACKMAN: We had two individuals who finished up with the department. These are payments that were paid out as per their termination benefits. One was an ADM who retired. That is what those fund were, additional funds to offset that.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The Transportation and Communications line under Executive Support is over budget again this year, but your office appears to be under budget. Is this a separate line item?

MR. JACKMAN: No. As I indicated in my preamble, there was no ADM stationed out in Corner Brook. We are actively trying to recruit one there, but, on a temporary basis, to deal with some issues related to wildlife and trying to get someone right there in the field, we temporarily placed an individual there. Those expenses are related to travel back and forth to Corner Brook.

MR. JOYCE: The ADM in Corner Brook has not been filled yet?

MR. JACKMAN: No, we were very close. We had advertised for it and we had an individual who was all lined up. We were very confident that individual was going to start, but, at the very last minute, due to, my understanding, personal issues and so on and so forth, he had to withdraw, so we are actively pursuing that again now.

MR. JOYCE: Is that the ADM who was terminated? Because the termination benefits are -

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, that is one of the positions that was mentioned earlier, but, like I said, we have not been able to fill that yet.

MR. JOYCE: He should have never released that information beforehand, should he?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. JOYCE: Under Supplies, Purchased Services, and Property, Furnishings and Equipment, it is all over budget.

MR. JACKMAN: You are looking at 07?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, that is related to the purchase of some routine furniture. If I can just give you an example, in one of our boardrooms we replaced the chairs and that there. When you go into a meeting and there are three or four of them squeaking, and you grease them up with oil and is still doesn't work, it is time to replace them.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

Under 1.2.02., since 2004-2005 most of the Employee Benefits have been over budget. Again, you are budgeting - you stay around $55,000, but every year -

MR. JACKMAN: You are looking at the $55,000 there gone to $105,000?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, and that has been two or three years in a row.

MR. JACKMAN: You are right on that one. As a matter of fact, it seems to be an ongoing issue. Like you say, it seems to show up every year.

We have put forward to have that increased because, like you say, it is anticipated every year, but it did not get approved. So we will go through the process again, and I will imagine in the following year that will go up. Those things are related specifically to Workers' Compensation issues.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, so it is all benefits in the -

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Last year in 1.2.03., Salaries - I guess this is why this sticks out. The budgeted Salaries was $688,000 but there was only $572,000 spent.

MR. JACKMAN: There was $572,000 and we are budgeting for $688,000. I will tell you, that one in particular - the 3 per cent increase is one of the things that is taken out of that and, secondly, we are going to put in place this year a mobile environmental education team. What we are basically looking at is putting in place a vehicle that we will take out to the Province and get out the message about climate change, waste management, all these types of issues related to the environment, and we are looking at a $30,000 allocation there. When you take that into consideration, the $30,000 and a 3 per cent increase, that is where those things are coming from.

MR. JOYCE: In the same line item, there was budgeted $400,700 for Purchased Services but only $70,000 was spent.

MR. JACKMAN: This one here is - climate change is central. This was not an initiative that we had budgeted for, we put it forward to the federal government. We were anticipating that, through climate change initiatives - and this started under the former Liberal federal administration - that we were going to get $1 million through climate change. That did not result, but we had budgeted that we would put $400,000 there. When that did not happen, just from our regular funds then, we allocated $70,000 there. As you can see, that is down to $10,000 budgeted for this year. So that initiative is no longer going to be into effect. We will probably get into it a little bit later, funding that the federal government have brought forward in terms of the equal trust.

This entire segment, if you are looking under Policy Development Planning, what was budgeted for 2006-2007, you see that a lot of these funds - the second one is $15,000 down to $2,000; $131,000 down to $65,000, because we had budgeted for climate change initiatives but that did not come about.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

In the same subhead, there was approximately $800,000 in Grants and Subsidies that was supposed to go towards some cleanups of some contaminated sites.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay. Where are you right now?

MR. JOYCE: In the same subhead, 1.2.03., but there was only about $100,000 spent.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay, I am missing you. This one right here, $810,000 under Grants and Subsidies?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: That, again, is just what I have spoken about. That was not specific to cleanups or anything of that nature. That was money that we had anticipated getting from the climate change sensor, which would have been $1 million. That did not get realized. As a result, you see where it is, it is down to $100,000.

If you go to the next section there, the Grants and Subsidies - in our present allocation we have placed in there a portion of the equal trust fund, that we are going to be getting $23 million over the next three years. What we have budgeted in there this year is the one-year portion of that $23 million.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

This Grants and Subsidies, $810,000 was mainly some kind of federal contribution that did not come through?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. We had a number of projects that we had put forward to the federal government under climate change initiatives which did not get realized. Like I said, it was under the previous federal government and then when the government changed, as you know, the present Conservative government are going with their own green plan initiative, which is different, but we have acquired the monies under the equal trust, a total of $23 million over the course of three years.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

Section 1.2.05., Administrative Support capital. It says that there was $1.1 million for provincial parks last year but there was only about $900,000 spent, it looks like.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, it was.

MR. JOYCE: How come the other -

MR. JACKMAN: You are looking at - there is a $90,000 variance?

MR. JOYCE: Two hundred thousand, pretty close.

MR. JACKMAN: The consultant's work for assessment and design, in connection to the park revitalization, did not come up to the full amount that we had anticipated.

MR. JOYCE: Is that study done now?

MR. JACKMAN: The work completed in terms of park renewal?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: No, that is ongoing. This year we have committed an extra million. We had a $3 million fund put into it over the course of three years. We have expanded that now. We have put another $1 million into it, so we are going to make it a four-year program.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Park improvements was supposed to be done to four or five parks around. Was that work done?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, it was.

MR. JOYCE: I will just ask the officials or yourself, and this is just from my point of view in the Bay of Islands: Was there anything done for Blow Me Down Provincial Park? I do not think there was, but is there anything slated? It has been a while since there has been any capital investment out in that park.

MR. JACKMAN: Gerry, do you have that list there that we were talking about, to see if Blow Me Down is on there?

I will say one thing, this past summer I went around and visited eight of our parks and if there is one thing I can say, is that certainly the staff is a committed group to the parks.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Secondly, our parks, I think, are comparable to anything in this nation, and I think we recognize that, and those are identified.

Do you have that list? Yes.

In Blow Me Down, it says year two there is going to be some $25,000 spent there on trails and signage. In year three we are looking at electrical hookups.

MR. JOYCE: Is this year two, this year?

MR. JACKMAN: This is year two, this year. There is $25,000 for that one this year and in year three, like I said, there is going to be electrical hookups and a kitchen shelter is going to be developed as well.

As result of my travels around, I am going to be sitting down with staff and taking a look at trying to advance some of those projects. What I heard this past summer is that we are losing some clientele, because we have tourists, for example, who are travelling and expecting to find a particular service in a particular park and when it is not there they are passing by. It is something that we have to take a look at.

Secondly, I think clientele in our parks are changing. In the last couple of years attendance at the parks have picked up. I think it may have been down before that and I attributed it to this very simple fact. Ten or fifteen years ago those of us who were willing to sleep on the ground in a sleeping bag kind of want memory foam under us right now, and we travel around with bigger rigs and we want more comfort. This plan here is something that is going to cater to that type of individual.

MR. JOYCE: This $25,000 for trails, will that be spent within the parks or in the surrounding area to help complement the parks?

MR. JACKMAN: I cannot speak for certain on that. That is something we would have to check with the -

MR. JOYCE: Would you mind?

MR. JACKMAN: Okay, can you -

MR. JOYCE: And I will explain why. Out in Lark Harbour where the park is, there are two or three trails and we get a lot of tourists. With a bit of upgrade it would keep a lot of tourists in the area itself. There is a big development going out there, a $1.5 million development with ten or twelve new self-efficiency units out in that area.

MR. JACKMAN: So you are talking about where local people would stay?

MR. JOYCE: No, tourists would stay.

MR. JACKMAN: Tourists would stay.

MR. JOYCE: When they come out, yes. (Inaudible) now with the upgraded trails done. I am trying to get money for the other trails, but in the park itself there are some nice trails there, that if they were upgraded people would stay.

Plus, out there with the new development, with the self-efficiency units, it would be a great complement if the trails in the park and the surrounding area were upgraded. So, that is a good move to keep people in the area.

MR. JACKMAN: I do not know if you heard, but today we launched our official Web site for making reservations on-line. I will put a little plug in for that now.

AN HON. MEMBER: Do they have to put a deposit?

MR. JACKMAN: You just go in and you make a reservation. It will cost you $10 plus GST. So, it is a total of $10.60.

AN HON. MEMBER: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: This provincial park recapitalization strategy, is that a public document or is that a departmental document?

MR. JACKMAN: Now, I cannot say for sure. Do we have that as a public document?

MR. HOLLETT: No, to my knowledge, there is not a public document out that details all of the plans. The plans are sort of evolving based on the total funds that are there. As we get planning work done -

MR. JOYCE: The document itself is an internal document, it is not a public document itself?

MR. HOLLETT: That is correct.

MR. JOYCE: Like, I cannot get my hands on that document to see what the strategy is for the parks in the Province?

MR. HOLLETT: That is correct.

MR. JACKMAN: If you want to sit down and have a discussion about it, we might find the time in the House one day -

MR. JOYCE: The reason why I asked is because I know the potential out in Blow Me Down, mainly. I would just like to sit down with somebody, because I live out there a lot in the summertime.

MR. JACKMAN: I think the issue with it is that we have allocated, for example, in year one $1 million. When we got into starting the work we were finding that in order to get this segment of the park completed you may run over. So, you have to adjust your project accordingly. First and foremost, we have it as a three-year plan, extended to a four-year plan. All of the parks in there, including Blow Me Down, have been slated to have some work done with them.

Having said that, there are also priorities, like the J.T. Cheesman Park, for example. We have a bridge that needs to be done. We did not have that slated to be done until, say, year three, but we have had to readjust our schedule because there is a liability involved there.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Another thing that I always bring up every year, even when we were in government in this Administration, is the extension of the season for out in Blow Me Down, out in Lark Harbour. You will find more and more tourists are coming now later in the season, in September. Last year I brought it up, the year before I brought it up, the year before. I do not know if there is anyway to extend it by three or four weeks, or four or five weeks, because there are a lot of people who drive out and just have to turn around and come in.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, we will take note of that. You brought it up last year -

MR. JOYCE: I brought it up last year. I have been bringing it up now for six or seven years. It is almost like somewhere in the department there is a discussion on the number of people who go through, and if it does not warrant it - I just feel a lot of times - out our way, on the West Coast, we get a lot more tourists in the fall of the year than you do in the - now not more than the summer but there is enough to warrant it in the fall.

MR. JACKMAN: I think your statement is valid in that we have seen weather conditions change a lot over the last three years. Our September and October now are as good as our July and August were a number of years ago.

Yes, okay, we will check into that.

MR. JOYCE: It is just a suggestion. If there is any way to extend it by three or four weeks, it would be great for the area, great for the park staff, a great morale boost.

MR. JACKMAN: You would get away from the snow on May 24, too.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, we have lots of (inaudible).

I am not sure, Minister, if this is information that you guys would have. When they had the play out there, probably about six or seven months ago, they left a ship out there. Did they put that in the park? They made a boat of the Vikings and they were putting it up as a tourism site. I am not sure if they put it in the park or not.

MR. JACKMAN: I can't recall that.

MR. JOYCE: I know the request was coming in.

Under 2.1.01., Pollution Prevention, last year you were going to create some new positions and fill some vacancies. Was that carried out?

MR. JACKMAN: What we have is that there were some vacancies that we did not get filled, but one of the things is that we have added three new positions this year. We have a position for industrial and commercial environmental issues, we are going to address spills and leaks as it relates to oil tanks, and we have revised pesticide regulations now so we have another individual around enforcement for that.

The industrial and commercial environmental issues, there is going to be a position that specifically will take a look at the traffic in Placentia Bay, for example. We need to develop a plan in the event that something should happen.

The federal government are active on it right now through the SmartBay project. We have individuals on that. Now we are taking the component as to, we need to do something from a provincial perspective, so a position is there for that.

MR. JOYCE: Was there any position created for the Waste Management Strategy?

MR. JACKMAN: The Waste Management Strategy? Well, the positions that were there under -

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 2.1.01.

MR. JACKMAN: Are you looking particularly now at 2.1.02?

MR. JOYCE: No, 2.1.01., Waste Management Strategy.

There is going to be a plan developed. I was assuming that there was going to be a position just for that, the Waste Management Strategy.

MR. JACKMAN: There will be.

MR. JOYCE: There is not yet, though, is there?

MR. JACKMAN: No, we do not have a position there yet.

MR. HOLLETT: Those positions were going to be funded by the Multi-Materials Stewardship Board, so the funding for three positions for the Waste Management Strategy would be down in the Revenue - Provincial line. They would not show up in the Salaries line.

MR. JOYCE: Is there a Waste Management Strategy plan done yet, implementation of the plan or the strategy done?

MR. JACKMAN: That is a policy thing, working with Municipal Affairs. That is close at hand. You are talking about the overall provincial strategy?

MR. JOYCE: The provincial strategy, yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, that is close at hand.

MR. JOYCE: The cleanup site up in St. Anthony, I know a few years ago when I was sitting here they were going to hire a consultant - and it was almost done.

MR. JACKMAN: All done.

MR. JOYCE: All done? All cleaned up?

MR. JACKMAN: All done.

MR. JOYCE: Done, perfect.

Subhead 2.2.01., Water Resources Management, Salaries, Transportation and Communications and Professional Services increased by approximately $500,000.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

These projects, again, are joint projects with the federal government. These are matching funds. Under Salaries, you are looking at it gone from $1,420,000 up to $1,697,000?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: The additional funding is provided to cover issues as they relate to municipal waste water effluent, a Waste Water Technician II, a water use analysis study, and we have pilot studies of performance indicators and the national water supply expansion programs. That increase is basically salaried positions on partnerships with the federal government.

MR. JOYCE: Minister - and I don't know if this is appropriate for the department - is there any chance to get a breakdown of what programs the Department of Environment are partaking that are cost shared, and the amount, with the provincial and federal government?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: That wouldn't be a problem to get, would it?

MR. JACKMAN: No. As a matter of fact, if you are looking at this one, Water Resources Management, continued again as 2.2.02., we can get you that. I will wait until you get to the wildlife. It is the same thing.

MR. JOYCE: It is the same thing. Well, a lot of it, even if you could send me over all of the agreements that you have, that you can release, that are provincial-federal cost shared.

MR. JACKMAN: In the department of wildlife it is the same thing; we have those projects. The thing about it is - and I will just use this as an off the top of my head number - by putting in, I don't know, $700,000, we can leverage $2.5 million from the federal government. We can provide those to you.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, perfect.

Section 2.3.01., again I will not get into Salaries because I would say that is cost shared also. In 2005-2006 there is about $30,000 in for revenues, and this year the revenues are expected to be over $200,000.

MR. JACKMAN: In provincial revenues?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: As you are probably aware, we have the megaprojects that are on the go, and these are fees related to such things as registration of the EA processes.

MR. JOYCE: So they are mainly just fees that have to be paid to the department or to the government itself to clean up sites?

MR. JACKMAN: It is part of registration processes. We have LNG that are looking at environmental assessments. These types of projects, megaprojects, are just the normal run of the fees that come in. These are cost recovery items.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

Crown Land, 3.1.01., the Transportation and Communications budget goes up by $40,000 this year. Is that a - Transportation and Communications.

MR. JACKMAN: More communications than anything else. It has gone up by $40,000 and it is related to Crown titled mapping.

MR. JOYCE: Under 3.1.02., Minister - I am almost finished - I think there was a commitment last year to hire additional staff to collect some overdue accounts on land.

MR. JACKMAN: Since we have Allister Taylor we don't need additional staff; he is doing quite well collecting.

[Laughter]

MR. JOYCE: There was an increase there of about $590,000.

MR. JACKMAN: Which line are you looking at right now?

MR. JOYCE: Under 3.1.02.

MR. JACKMAN: In terms of Salaries?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: We have gone from $590,000 budgeted to $596,000, so that is a $6,000 increase.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Those are basically for minor variances, and we had hoped that we were going to move on the Salmonier project with recruitment and 3 per cent collections.

Do you want to comment on it? Bruce will comment.

MR. HOLLETT: In part, that is a very small increase. Some of it is the 3 per cent wage increase for staff.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The next one, Professional Services, it was budgeted for $100,000 and it went up to $170,000, and last year I think there was only about $64,000 spent, in 2005-2006. Am I correct, in that last year it was $64,000 spent on Professional Services under Land Management?

MR. JACKMAN: Under Land Management right now under Professional Services we have $170,000 there.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, and last year I think there was only about $64,000 spent.

MR. JACKMAN: No, we had $160,000 spent, a $10,000 difference.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: We budgeted $170,000, we got $160,000, and this coming year we are budgeting $120,000.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Was it budgeted at $100,000 last year and it went up to $170,000?

MR. JACKMAN: No, we budgeted $170,000.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Wait now; he is right on that, isn't he? Because there was a one-time $100,000 - is that right, Gerry?

MR. CROCKER: There was a revised variance there of $10,000 as a reduction of contractual services required last year, and in 2006-2007 there was an additional $50,000 provided for cottage lot development.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. CROCKER: There was $100,000 taken off the base, so it went down to $70,000.

MR. JOYCE: It did, yes.

MR. CROCKER: There was an additional $50,000 put in to cover cottage lot development.

MR. JACKMAN: That would have been the $70,000; and this year what we have done is, we have put in an additional $50,000 for the cottage development.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, can I ask you a question? I don't even know if it is the right department or not. What is going on with the Kruger land out around the West Coast? They can't get a piece of land approved. I think it is Government Services, but I am sure your department is involved in it. Kruger, I guess, is into a dispute with Crown Lands and they will not recommend anybody get a Crown land permit.

MR. JACKMAN: I will let Allister speak to it, but there is the ongoing issue as viewscapes versus Kruger's land, and so on and so forth.

Allister, do you want to comment on it?

MR. TAYLOR: What has happened on the West Coast is that Kruger has decided that its forest space is being eroded and what they want, more or less, and what they have been doing, is refusing certain applications. Cottage areas they have refused; some agriculture leases they have refused. It all has to do with - they are sitting down with government and we are trying to work out some kind of compromise which will meet their requirements for future fibre resource as well as our requirements for cottage development, and they are able to do it under their legislation.

MR. JOYCE: There are some disputes on the go, I can assure you. I think there are well over 150 or 175 cabin applications. People just cannot get any headway because of Kruger; they just refuse to - I don't know if this is the right place to ask it, but can the department go ahead and issue it without...?

MR. TAYLOR: No, we cannot.

MR. JACKMAN: (Inaudible).

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. TAYLOR: That right gives them also the right to refuse other uses of that land.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, I am going to ask a few general questions, if you do not mind.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: The oil tank, it is my understanding your department - was it your department that gave an extension for two years?

MR. JACKMAN: Extended it for two years.

MR. JOYCE: I was asked to bring up something by Wally Andersen for Torngat Mountains. Part of the concern they have up there is - the extension is great, but for the people who have to fly in, whoever gets their oil tanks inspected got to pay for the cost to have the person fly in to actually do the inspection. So, it does not matter if it is five or ten years, the cost is just extremely high. Are there any allowances made by the department for that?

MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Andersen has mentioned that to me as well. If we were to look at the Island of Newfoundland, for example, I can get my tank done. I would call the inspector to come in.

I think what we are going to have to take a look at is, rather than having individuals pay for it, we are going to have to look at, possibly, a couple of trips a year in there. Say to people that: Okay, we are coming in December and we may be coming again in April or whatever; whatever is the best month to do that. An inspector then can go in and inspect a number, as opposed to having one done here sporadically. So we will have to work out something like that.

I will get you just to jot that down. We will follow up on that. It is something that we definitely have to address and if we have to address it through the Combined Councils or something of that nature, it is a topic that we need to deal with. Maybe that is the route to go. We will sit down and have a meeting with the Combined Councils and come up with a practical way. I think that is what we will do.

MR. JOYCE: Yes. Another thing is, just from my own - is there any way to get a list of approved companies that can actually approve the oil tanks?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, any of your oil providers can.

MR. JOYCE: Some say they cannot. There are a few of them - I do not know if there is a standard list because some of them who are just burner mechanics, they are not certified to do it. I know two or three of them with Ultramar, they cannot and some more can. I do not know if there is a list because we get a lot of calls at the office looking for people who can do it and sometimes if you have to go through a private company, it costs a lot more than if you get somebody who is out on their own or who has a smaller company. I do not know if there is a list or not.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, what we will do is we will check into that and just -

MR. JOYCE: And just forward me a list so I could give it to people who call.

MR. JACKMAN: So, you are looking into your particular district?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, Bay of Islands and -

MR. JACKMAN: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: - it would be the Cormack area because we deal with them.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Then you can give them the list of suppliers and let them contact them and get the best price they can, because some of them feel -

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, but generally your provider are the ones who would inspect.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Bay Verte Mines, where is that at now, Minister? I know it was just announced for the cleanups of the mines there.

MR. JACKMAN: I am going to ask Mr. Cleary to answer that one.

MR. CLEARY: The responsibility for clean up of that site rests with the Department of Natural Resources since they are the owners of the property. What our role would be in the department is to ensure that it is cleaned up to the proper environmental standards.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, there are a lot of comments on just what the department is feeling on it. I am getting, not a lot of calls, but there are a few people who have outfitters lodges and live in the Bay of Islands, about the caribou herd, especially with the coyotes and -

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, and I am trying to get the point out there as much as I possibly can, that as much as we look at the coyote as a predator, research is indicating that the black bear is equally the predator that the coyote is. Of course, this past year we put in $3 million to do some research on it.

I noticed today, the Member for Humber Valley mentioned that we need to take action now. So, this year we put $650,000 into a pilot predator program. What that is basically going to do is - and this was at the request of outfitters and some resident hunters - we are going to seek the assistance of the outfitters and local hunters and trappers to enter into a predation program. Then, based on that - this is our first investment. As a result, then we will see what goes from that and then if we feel we need to have a follow up in subsequent years, we will. The studies are showing us that calves who make it past six months, their survival rate is a lot higher, but the survival rate of calves from zero to six months is very low.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, the issue of caribou licences - I am not sure if that is under your department for outfitters.

MR. JACKMAN: No, that is under Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

MR. JOYCE: It is an issue that a lot of people have where -

MR. JACKMAN: In terms of issuing to -

MR. JOYCE: The outfitters themselves.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, that is under Tourism.

MR. JOYCE: The Centre of Excellence for Biodiversity. I think it is 4.2.02. Can you tell me the status on that?

MR. JACKMAN: Subhead 4.2.02?

MR. JOYCE: Yes. Biodiversity, please.

MR. JACKMAN: Subhead 4.2.02. I think you are referring to 4.2.07.

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 4.2.07, yes. Sorry, you are right.

MR. JACKMAN: The Centre for Environmental Excellence is quite different from what we have here. That does not fall under our department. This one does, the Institute for Biodiversity.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: What we have done this year is increased support for that. As a matter of fact, there are two positions there right now. We are increasing that to five. We are putting in a director, a research manager and a funding officer, in addition to the two people who are there. My argument to this was, as a government department, likewise any other government department, if we are looking for information on a particular matter we really do not have an arm of government that we can look to, to get that. I think this - an institute such as we have here allows us to do that.

Just a simple fact, it is going to be operating out of Corner Brook. If I want some research done on turrs out in Placentia Bay, we do not have a body that we can go to. I see something of this nature getting into that, plus things around climate change and environmental issues. I think it fits the West Coast quite well. When you look at the tourism that we have over there, on a seasonal basis, how the forest industry, tourism and so on also intertwine, I think it is key to that particular area. So, we are supporting that more.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

I am finished with the questions, but before I go, minister, I just want to thank you and the staff. I deal with the staff out in Corner Brook on a regular basis. They are always there to be helpful and very cordial, very supportive and hardworking individuals. The dealings I had with you personally, just thank you very much for the assistance that you have given me personally on some of the matters that I brought forward to your attention.

MR. JACKMAN: No problem. This crowd here is not bad either.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Joyce.

Any further questions?

Mr. Barrett.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. I brought this issue up with the previous minister on many occasions, the whole issue of Agent Orange and the use in the Province. I asked the minister, at the time, to conduct a study in terms of how it was used, but I also have some concerns in terms of a lot of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians - of course, former Armed Forces people and what have you, were involved in New Brunswick. We all know that there are serious implications in New Brunswick at the base there. Has the department taken any leadership role in terms of trying to identify these people? I know that I did have one in my district who has since died with cancer.

MR. JACKMAN: You are talking specifically about people who worked out of New Brunswick and are residents of the Province?

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Now, I would have to check on that, but I am not aware that we have investigated anything as related to that particular situation, people who were away, because at Gagetown they did, but I am not aware.

MR. CLEARY: We have done some preliminary work in just trying to contact some of the industries in the Province, like the pulp and paper industries and the utilities, in terms of their use of this product. We have not found very widespread use of Agent Orange in this Province to this date, based on what we have received back from industry and others who may have used these types of sprays.

MR. JACKMAN: I know of one (inaudible) they have identified that Agent Orange, as the chemical that you know it, was never used in this Province. There was a compound of it, 245T, which was used but investigation seem to tell us that there has not been anything identified in regard to that.

MR. BARRETT: I am just wondering in terms of, have we identified the number of people, Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, for example, who were involved in New Brunswick? Are we doing anything for them or are we just leaving it to the federal government to investigate and to follow up on what happened to these people? Some Newfoundlanders and Labradorians might not even be aware that - I think there is a compensation package that is going to be given out to these people. I am just wondering, what are we doing to assist these people?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, the first thing we have to do is to check and see if there is an investigation to identify people in the Province who are there. So that is something - I will check on that.

MR. BARRETT: I think a letter, for example, to authorities that are handling this in terms of what is happening and what is going on with it, then we would be able to communicate that to the Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who had served time at Camp Gagetown.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: I mean, I could write a letter but it not going to have the same impact as coming from the Minister of Environment and Conservation of Newfoundland and Labrador or from the department. I think we would provide a valuable service because I know some of these people are asking me these questions and I cannot answer their questions in terms of: What is the update in terms of what is happening? Probably you could do it as a ministerial statement tomorrow.

MR. JACKMAN: Pardon?

MR. BARRETT: Do it as a ministerial statement tomorrow?

MR. JACKMAN: I think probably -

MR. BARRETT: - and start off by giving the Member for Bellevue credit for it, right?

MR. JACKMAN: We always give credit where credit is due.

MR. BARRETT: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: I think we will check with Intergovernmental Affairs on that as well.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, I think it is important that we be seen as supporting them in terms of - they might even need some legal advice.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, okay.

MR. BARRETT: The other issue that I directed many times to the other minister was: Have you still said no to putting independent monitors on our oil rigs, our offshore platforms? Is that still the answer of government? Are we waiting for an oil spill out there to happen?

MR. JACKMAN: You are talking specifically on the actual rig?

MR. BARRETT: On the Terra Nova, on the White Rose and all the other ones. Right now, we do not have independent monitors, environmental monitors. We saw a few cases that happened. Thank God, we have not had any lately, but I think there should be someone from the department, independent of everybody else, to monitor what is going on out there.

MR. JACKMAN: It is something that I will follow up on but I will say this, I would hope that oil companies now are environmentally aware enough that they would do everything in their power to avoid such incidents.

I will be very honest and up front with you, my biggest concern will be with traffic as it relates to Placentia Bay. If we see the development of these mega projects, we are going to see a huge increase in the number of oil tankers that come into our bay. You and I both have a lot at stake in that particular bay. Therefore, as I said to Mr. Joyce, we have recognized that and we are putting staff in to start to develop a plan specifically around that.

MR. BARRETT: I hope they do not hit the sandpiper.

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. BARRETT: You know the sandpiper, do you?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. BARRETT: Okay. I will tell you after what the sandpiper is.

MR. JACKMAN: You can tell us all now. You cannot go just telling me.

MR. BARRETT: It is a big concern, there is no doubt about it. I travel that bay in a boat, on the sandpiper, from time to time and there is a lot -

MR. JACKMAN: Okay. Is it a tanker? You travel on the sandpiper. Is it a tanker?

MR. BARRETT: I travel on the sandpiper and there is a lot of traffic in Placentia Bay, there is no doubt about it.

MR. JACKMAN: Oh, there is no doubt about it.

MR. BARRETT: When it is foggy it is pretty scary, actually.

MR. JACKMAN: You and I have both been out on that bay and you know the number of tankers that are moored off out there now.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: The potential for increase is great there.

MR. BARRETT: Yes.

I do have concerns on the rigs offshore in that I do not know how well it is monitored in terms of - now that we have all of that money from the oil coming in at least we should be able to hire some Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to be offshore to monitor what is going on.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. I will just ask Mr. Hollett to speak on it.

MR. HOLLETT: One of the conditions of the environmental release for any of those projects would have been proper emergency plans in case of an oil spill and proper contingency plans in terms of how to deal with those situations.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, but I am talking about preventing it, before it happens, not what the response is going to be when there is a spill. Let's face it, they are out there drilling and doing all of this activity and our biggest resource is swimming around them, which is a renewable resource. What they are pumping out is going to be gone in ten or fifteen years, but our whole fishery resource and our whole ecology out there is probably just as important, or more important in terms of our long-term sustainability and our future in terms of our fishery. Sometimes we seem to get lost in the money coming from the oil. I think we probably should be monitoring it more and more.

I hope I will never get to the point where I will say, I told you so. I would feel more and more comfortable if there were independent monitors from the Department of Environment and Conservation of this Province out there. I would.

MR. JACKMAN: It will be interesting that we have an individual who will be in place this year to develop some policy around that and to see where this might come into play.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. Even if there was some spot monitoring or that sort of stuff. Right now we seem to depend more or less on the petroleum board to monitor everything. I know they have people there, but I do not feel comfortable with it. I think that I would feel more comfortable if your department was responsible for it.

The other pet peeve to me is the MMSB. How much has this board expanded in the last two or three years? I hear that there are a lot of people coming on staff, there are more and more people. What kind of funds are available? What kind of revenues are coming in? What kind of pot do they have over there? Is that in their annual report?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes and their annual report is available through -

MS HART: It is actually accessible under the Department of Finance website as part of the public accounts. You should be able to get their financial statements there.

MR. BARRETT: The public accounts?

MS HART: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: Have they increased their staff very much over the last number of years? Have they built up a big bureaucracy over there that we could have them as independent monitors on the oil rigs instead?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I will tell you, my dealing with the MMSB is a very positive one. I think they are very much a proactive arm's-length of government and doing extremely well in the role that they are supposed to do. If you look at probably four or five years ago, where would people have been with composting, recycling, and so on and so forth. I think they have done an admiral job in getting the message out there and I think more and more people are taking part in it.

We had a celebration this year where Newfoundlanders and Labradorians have recycled their 1 billionth beverage container. Now do not ask me how they keep track of it, but they have a tracking system. We had an announcement around that. I think schools and communities are taking part more and more. I think as we come forward with the Waste Management Strategy, the MMSB has a larger role to play in that.

I use my own area as an example, and part of your district. We have three districts represented on the Burin Peninsula, twenty-eight dumps there. The MMSB has funded a $50,000 position for a coordinator there who will now look at rolling out the plan so that there is one waste management site on the Peninsula. These are some of the roles sometimes that I do not think the MMSB gets recognized for, and the funds that they collect, this is where they are going.

MR. BARRETT: I would say, in terms of the beverage containers, that Paddy Lambe in Clarenville has collected one-half of them. Are you familiar with Paddy Lambe?

MR. JACKMAN: No, but I think a lot of our areas have similar people. They may not be as active as Paddy Lambe, but I can name a couple of people down my way who are regulars with picking up. They are providing a valuable role.

MR. BARRETT: How much their budget has increased, how much money they got and all of that sort of thing is in their annual report?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, available through the Department of Finance website.

MR. BARRETT: Okay.

We were on the subject of beverage containers and you said there were1 billion, was it?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. BARRETT: Our goal was to reach 80 per cent. Have we come close to reaching 80 per cent of the beverage containers?

MR. JACKMAN: I think right now - are we around -

MR HART: I will double check but it is in the 70 per cent range or a little higher.

MR. BARRETT: It is up in the seventies, okay.

MR. JACKMAN: If I could make a statement, I think it is the younger generation who are much into it. If you are finding people who might not be so environmentally conscious they might be your age, a little bit younger than my age.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. I do not drink those soft drinks, therefore I do not have to worry about that. I think we should have a refund on the Tim Horton's coffee cups.

MR. JACKMAN: There is a component to that I think you will see will come out in the Waste Management Strategy too. It is called the extended producer responsibility. If you look at some of the things that we see on our side roads, I do not want to use any brand names but there are two or three that are much more prevalent than others. They have a role in this as well. That is something that is being pursued, not only in this Province but nationally. They have a responsibility whether it be one cent per cup, and I am just using that off the top of my head. It is a way then of managing the amount of garbage that you see in the ditches as related to those particular companies.

MR. BARRETT: I think there should be some kind of a deposit put on these cups and the Paddy Lambes of the world would have a klondike in terms of - if they just collected them so that they could be brought to a site where they could be disposed of. I do not know if there is any recycling value in these cups or not.

I was driving down the Burin Peninsula last weekend and I counted twenty-eight cups between the Bay L'Argent intersection and just a little bit past. I guess, by the time they left Marystown, the coffee was about to run out by the time they got to the Bay L'Argent intersection. If there was somebody there collecting them, even if there was four cents or something like that, that people would get back, if they could take them somewhere where they could dump them and dispose of them. I think it is becoming a real issue out around, these particular cups.

The other issue that I would like to talk about: We have situations with a lot of people in Newfoundland and Labrador where innocently their properties were contaminated by oil spills. I know there was one particular person in Gander where the department fell down on the job and did not take all the oil out of the ground at that particular time, only took sixty litres out, and right now he is in a house where it is of very little value.

Has anything been done by the department to follow up on some of these situations that exist?

MR. JACKMAN: First and foremost, like you say, we have a number of them. I guess some of the cases that you might allude to, at the time of clean up it met the standard of the day. Now that standard has changed. Therefore, we have a number of instances with neighbour A and neighbour B; neighbours A's leak spilled onto neighbour B's. Some of these cases end up as legal battles and so on so forth.

The case that you are talking about in particular is an ongoing one and has been ongoing for a number of years. It has not been resolved at this point, but I would say to you that at that particular time, I think the standard as it was, was met.

I do not know if you want to comment on it any further.

WITNESS: That is about it.

MR. BARRETT: The problem is that these people, innocently, are left with a contaminated site which was not their fault because it was the neighbour and all this sort of stuff, and right now they are occupying property that is of little value. They cannot sell it, they cannot get rid of it.

Shouldn't government take some responsibility?

MR. JACKMAN: Right now there are legal battles, as I said, that are going on in some of these cases which is something that we cannot interfere in. In the other case that you mentioned, this individual made representation to the department again. I am not certain if we have responded on this account right now, but again I think I will go back to my previous point, that the standard that was established, say, ten or fifteen years ago was met. This individual went in and however the cleanup was carried out, it was carried out. An assessment was done based on those standards. It met the standard, therefore you moved on.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, which means that the department was probably somewhat responsible. They met the standards but the standards were not the proper standards and we still ended up with contaminated sites.

MR. JACKMAN: Right.

MR. BARRETT: Anyway the other one, which I mentioned in the media recently, is the stockpile of cars.

MR. JACKMAN: I was really expecting you to ask me a question on that one.

MR. BARRETT: We have a government site out there that was paying a lot of money and there is no activity going on out there except for storing tires. That haunted me about four years ago. As a matter of fact, Joan Cleary used it quite properly to try to defeat me; that we were storing tires at Bull Arm. Now, I guess, you will have the answer for it. There does not seem to be any plan for the tires.

MR. JACKMAN: There is.

MR. BARRETT: That was supposed to be implemented a year ago.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, I know. Well, not quite a year ago, just a couple of months ago we said we would come out with our backup plan.

MR. BARRETT: Back in December.

MR. JACKMAN: In December.

We had three stockpiles in the Province, in Stephenville, Bull Arm and Argentia. The stockpile in Stephenville is gone. We took care of that.

Now, the second thing - and this is what I said publicly. We had two options. There is a private company that is looking at a new technology. The issue with them was finding the financial support to move ahead. Right now that seems to be moving ahead. Well, as far as my understanding of it is, they have secured funding. We will be acting on that very shortly. In the event they cannot meet at this time, then our backup plan is TDA, Tire Derived Aggregate. That means bringing in a piece of equipment, cutting up the tires to construction site material size and then using it in some road infrastructure, insulation around buildings and so on and so forth.

We were told by the Department of Transportation, for example, there is a section on the Bonavista Highway that keeps just dropping all of the time and they think it is because of the terrain that is there. If we can use that as a tire derived aggregate, as a backup plan, those are the types of projects that it would be used in.

The only thing is, from my perspective, I certainly would like to give this private group the opportunity to prove it, because I think we would have an innovative technology that would be ahead of anything else in this country, and we would be the lead Province in (inaudible). In the event that does not come true, then we have our backup plan.

MR. BARRETT: There must be a lot of money in that $3 right now, is it?

MR. JACKMAN: Again, I cannot tell you the exact figure, but -

MR. BARRETT: Gee whiz, I must have about $1,000 in that $3 recycling in just tires alone, myself.

MR. JACKMAN: You know, us politicians, we wear out tires.

MR. BARRETT: There must be a lot of money lying around from that $3 somewhere.

The other issue that I don't know if you are monitoring or not, and I have seen it quite often recently, is our own Department of Works, Services and Transportation and the contractors recycling or grinding up the asphalt and dumping it in the ditches along the side of the road. Are we monitoring that? Is the department monitoring that?

Particularly around Thorburn Lake, last year, I observed them grinding up this asphalt and dumping it out in the ditch. As you know, there is a brook that runs down there; it runs into a salmon river next to Port Blandford. All of this asphalt, the grains of asphalt, is being released into the stream. If a private individual was doing that sort of stuff they would be crucified, and here we have our own department, one of the departments of government, out there grinding up this asphalt and throwing it out in the ditch. They did it all along the Trans-Canada out here, but particularly what really hit me more, I guess, was when I saw it there by Thorburn Lake. As you know, the ditch goes down, and a brook or stream goes down, to the salmon river there in Southwest Port Blandford. They were at that for about two or three weeks there. Someone from the department must have passed by it at one particular time to observe what was going on.

MR. JACKMAN: I am going to let Bas speak to that.

MR. CLEARY: That is not a permitted activity.

MR. BARRETT: It is not permitted?

MR. CLEARY: No, it is not permitted. We would not allow Works and Services to grind up asphalt and throw it in the ditch. Just a little while ago, when they were repairing the Outer Ring Road, they started to do that one morning and we issued a stop order to them. That is not allowed, no matter where you do it on the highway. I guess we may have to step up our monitoring or have a discussion with Works and Services, but that is not a permissible activity.

MR. BARRETT: It is going on everywhere. I spend a lot of time on the highway, and just about every road job out there now, that is what they are doing. They are shooting it out on the shoulder of the road. I know, because I got out of the car and I walked down in the ditches, and you could not walk in the ditches because this mucky old asphalt was there in the ditches.

MR. JACKMAN: I think what we will do - I will just mention it to the deputy here - we will send out a directive to the Department of Transportation and contractors who are coming up in this season to just inform them that this is not permitted and that we will be monitoring. I know that if there are certain individuals who see it happening they will call into the department and then we can act on that complaint, but to send out a specific directive related to that would be something that we would do.

MR. BARRETT: It really needs to be addressed. Actually, I called the Department of Transportation and Works at the time and complained about it, that it should not be happening.

I don't think I have any other questions. Any other questions I have are too juicy and more interesting for Question Period in the House. I will do a follow-up question on the highways one. To me, it is disgusting.

In closing, I want to thank and identify - Eddie, the Member for Bay of Islands, identified the staff within the department, but in my eighteen years in politics there is one division out of all of government that I found to be very, very efficient and co-operative and they worked well. They worked like they should all get a raise, the whole works of them, and that is the crowd that works in the Crown Lands Division of your department.

MR. JACKMAN: Allister agrees with that.

MR. BARRETT: I have to say, they are really, really committed and they really do a fantastic job. They return all the calls and they really do the follow-up work. They go out of their way to assist you in every way possible.

Today, I want you to convey back to them that I really appreciate it over the years. In the eighteen years I have been around here, they have been one of the best agencies and divisions of government that I have dealt with. I just want you to take that message back to them.

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you, Sir.

MR. BARRETT: When you get the monitors on the rigs, I will compliment the other crowd - and stop the asphalt in the ditches - I will compliment the other crowd, the other divisions.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: Just one last question that I missed, Minister - and I will give you a bit of background - is the dump site over in Wild Cove in the Corner Brook area. As you know, they are trying to get a regional disposal site somewhere in the area. A lot of residents on the North and South Shore want the dump site in Wild Cove closed down. The Mayor of Corner Brook has publicly stated that it will cost about $50 million to $60 million to develop a new site, which taxpayers will have to pay from the North or South Shore, whoever uses it, and it will cost another $30 million to bring that site back to its normal state.

After the comments that Minister Jack Byrne made in Corner Brook, that the government would develop a new site - not the taxpayers themselves in Corner Brook; it would be a government thing - and to reclaim the old site, he said, most of the money would come from MMSB, or part of the funds would come.

Does your department, and would your department, fund such a project, or have there been any negotiations?

MR. JACKMAN: Funding - you mean the close out of Wild Cove?

MR. JOYCE: I used Wild Cove. If it had to be somewhere (inaudible), because they are going to do an evaluation, do an assessment, and pick a site, but a lot of the residents and a lot of the town councils on the West Coast are saying that you cannot have the City of Corner Brook pre-establish a site of which they are going to have total control, total ownership, which is old, which was supposed to close two years ago. The fearmongering that they are using is that it is going to cost us $50 million or $60 million to develop a new site and another $30 million to clean this up.

MR. JACKMAN: From our department, basically, we set the standard. Under the entire Waste Management Strategy under Municipal Affairs, they are going to have to put in place the committee to determine where the site is going to be.

MR. JOYCE: I agree.

MR. JACKMAN: They are going to come to our department and then say, if it is Wild Cove, they will identify the site, and they agree with it as an entire waste management committee in that particular area. Then we will go in and say: Does it meet the particular standard?

We would not be involved in determining whether it is going to be site A, B, or C. We are just regulators.

MR. JOYCE: This is just hypothetical - because there is going to supposedly be a committee set up to do this - if Wild Cove has to be closed and find another regional site, has your department and will your department fund to help reclaim this Wild Cove site?

MR. JACKMAN: That is going to come under the entire Waste Management Strategy.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Part of the Waste Management Strategy is going to be the recovery of the lands that are there.

MR. JOYCE: That is what Minister Byrne was saying out in Corner Brook. I just want to confirm with you because eventually it will become a public issue and I will state that the funds to develop a waste management site will be supplied by the Province and then to clean up the site, some of the funds will come from the Province, from the MMSB, as the minister mentioned.

Out in Corner Brook now, the whole issue is that towns would have to set up the site and raise their taxes by so many mills to pay for the new site. Then the City of Corner Brook will have to raise their taxes in the city to reclaim the rest that the -

MR. JACKMAN: I think that is taking us a ways down the road because first and foremost, a site is going to have to be determined. Then we are going to have to take a look at what the tipping fees are all going to be, but I think there is a whole set of things that will have to happen beforehand; education around the entire thing, then developing and determining, through the waste management committee that is out there, how we are going to progress from that. From this department, again, specifically standard setting as to how the site meets environmental standards.

MR. JOYCE: So, if I said publicly, eventually - which I will say - that there is money from your department and the MMSB to reclaim the Wild Cove site -

MR. JACKMAN: No, your statement should be that it is going to develop, from my perspective, from the entire Waste Management Strategy. We have allocated $26 million this year that is going to go towards waste management. Therefore, those funds to do that, to reclaim sites, will come from that. Now, can the MMSB play a role in it? Maybe so, but that is to be determined. If it is, the MMSB then will be just a partner within the entire Waste Management Strategy.

MR. JOYCE: I agree with the process. I have no problem with the process whatsoever. My only concern is when you have a mayor out there in Corner Brook and a council who are saying: Okay, you cannot do it because it is going to cost us $80 million, the taxpayers of Corner Brook - which is not true. It is just absolutely not true what he is saying. Somehow you have to - myself, because I am representing a lot of the rural communities. We have to put it back, now listen, those statements are not true. Go back and let your committee decide on it. It might be the Wild Cove site. It might be the best place. I am not saying it is or isn't, but at least they should get the opportunity to do a proper evaluation and not fearmonger people that it is going to cost us a back load of money to do this, when it is just not true.

Minister Byrne is out publicly saying that to develop a new site the government will supply the funds. He is on record three or four times. At the Great Humber Joint Council he said that three weeks ago out in Corner Brook.

MR. JACKMAN: From our department, we develop the standards as to what the site should be, the regulations and requirements around that. We develop the standards for decommissioning of sites. The only thing I can really say at this particular point is we have to just wait and see how the strategy rolls out.

CHAIR: Any further questions from the Committee members? None at all.

Before we call the subheads, I should have done this earlier but for the record and for the benefit of the departmental officials, if the Committee members could introduce themselves.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands.

MR. BARRETT: Percy Barrett, MHA for Bellevue.

MR. HUNTER: Ray Hunter, MHA for Windsor-Springdale.

MR. BAKER: Jim Baker, MHA for Labrador West.

MS JOHNSON: Charlene Johnson, MHA for Trinity-Bay de Verde.

CHAIR: Harry Harding, MHA for Bonavista North.

Thank you very much.

Now I will ask the Clerk to call the subheads.

CLERK: 1.1.01 to 4.2.07 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall the subheads 1.1.01 to 4.2.07 inclusive carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay'.

Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.2.07 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay'.

Carried.

On motion, Department of Environment and Conservation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of 2007-2008 for the Department of Environment and Conservation carried without amendment?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay'.

Carried.

You have the minutes circulated from this morning's meeting, so I guess we will have a motion now to adopt these minutes.

Moved by Ms Johnson, seconded -

MS JOHNSON: Mr. Chair, I am not sure if this is relevant or not but for - I see Judy Foote, it was noted there who substituted for her and on that list Wally Young's name is there. I just want to point out, he did substitute for me this morning. I am not sure if it is necessary to point that out but I just thought I would.

CHAIR: We can record those changes.

Motion to adopt the minutes as circulated, with the changes as pointed out.

MS JOHNSON: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Ms Johnson.

Second?

MR. JOYCE: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Seconded by Mr. Joyce.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay'.

Motion carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I would like to remind the members of the Committee that our next meeting will be - there is a little change in the time tomorrow afternoon. It will be immediately following the closure of the House, a little bit after 5:00 p.m., and we will be doing the Estimates for the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

Before we finish, I would like to thank Minister Jackman and his officials, Committee members and the staff of the House of Assembly.

On saying that, I would like a motion to adjourn.

MR. JOYCE: Motion.

CHAIR: Motion moved by Mr. Joyce.

This meeting now stands adjourned.

Thank you very much.

On motion, Committee adjourned.