CHAIR (Mr. Harding): Order, please!

We are ready to begin now, so I call this meeting to order.

First of all, welcome to everyone here this morning. The procedure we try to follow is that after the Clerk calls the subhead, the minister will have fifteen minutes to talk about his department, followed by the critic who will have fifteen minutes, and then we try to alternate between Opposition members and government members, ten minutes each. It has not been working out that way, just the same, but anyway it gives everybody the opportunity to speak.

Now, I would like to ask the members of the Resource Committee to introduce themselves by name and district.

MR. O'BRIEN: Kevin O'Brien, MHA for the District of Gander.

MS JOHNSON: Charlene Johnson, MHA for the District of Trinity-Bay de Verde.

MR. HUNTER: Ray Hunter, MHA for the District of Windsor-Springdale.

MS FOOTE: Judy Foote, MHA for the District of Grand Bank.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA for the District of Bay of Islands.

MR. REID: Gerry Reid, MHA for the District of Twillingate & Fogo.

Mr. LEWIS: Andy Lewis, Opposition research.

CHAIR: I would also like to welcome our staff here this morning.

Minister Shelley, would you like to introduce your officials that you have here this morning?

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I am delighted to here this morning, my first experience at this. I am looking forward to it as I did in Opposition. I want to welcome everybody here.

First of all, I will introduce my staff who are with me. There is Gary Norris, as most of you know, the Deputy Minister, on my immediate left; Brent Meade, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Culture and Heritage; Vic Janes, ADM of Tourism and Recreation; and directly behind me is Gerry Crocker, the Director of Finance and general operations.

I know, traditionally, if it were in the evening we would have had supper but, of course, we did not have that occasion. I was in early enough to have breakfast, so maybe we should have organized that. There is a rain check there if we can do something at some point. Breakfast would be 7:00 a.m., I would assume.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: I thought about it earlier, because I think every time I have done this, actually, it was evening and there was usually a supper, compliments of the minister. As a matter of fact, I have done it with the minister. I appreciate that and I would like to return that same compliment if we can arrange something. I will certainly make note of that.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Shelley.

I will ask the Clerk now to call the first subhead for the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

CLERK (Ms Murphy): Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01. You may proceed now, sir.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you.

You have called the subhead and now we can start.

I will begin with some introductory remarks. I will try to keep it as brief as possible so I can give you all the time you want and need and more.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: You can spend as much time as you want.

I will start by just making a few general comments that I have written, but I may break off from a few of these to make some other comments, and as we go through it, of course, we will continue.

For the Budget 2004-2005, the department's total gross budget is $32,747,800. This budget will support key objectives of the department, including economic growth and employment in the tourism industry, cultivation of contemporary arts, protection and promotion of the Province's cultural heritage, promotion of sport and recreation and the benefits of active living and the well-being of the people in Newfoundland and Labrador. Budget 2004-2005 outlines some specific investments that the department will undertake in the coming year to meet the objectives.

First of all, of course, as I mentioned yesterday, the $1 million in tourism marketing will effectively bring the total tourism marketing budget now to $7 million. Just on that note, I have always compared it to the other Atlantic provinces, which, in fact, are our competition. They are our neighbors and our friends but they are also the main competition when it comes to tourism in Atlantic Canada. That is the intension and sight, of course, of people coming from across the country and throughout the United States and around the world, about the Eastern Coast of Canada.. Our competition is our Atlantic partners. As a matter of fact, I do not have the numbers with me this morning, but I sort of remember them, and I think Nova Scotia is the highest in tourism marketing, somewhere around $9 million. We are up to around $7 million now, so we are getting close on par with P.E.I.. I think P.E.I dropped a little bit last year and so did New Brunswick. We offer similar things when it comes to the tourism package.

The increased funding will allow us to gain ground on our Atlantic competitors and will result in increased visitation, and increased employment revenue for tourism operators and communities in which they reside. Over $2.5 million has been allocated to encourage and support the continued success and growth of creative artists and cultural industries in the Province.

Specific investments include - and these are the main ones of course: The CEDP program, the Culture Economic Development Program, which you are familiar with, and that has been there for quite awhile, is at $825,000 again. The Heritage Foundation of Newfoundland and Labrador, and there is quite a history behind that, I am trying to make sure that they are still in operation. This year we have allocated $250,000 to that. The Newfoundland and Labrador Film Development Corporation have $180,000 in operation. The French Heritage Celebrations, which is specific to this year, and, of course, there has been some funding from the previous administration, this is what we have added to it because this is the summer of the French Shore Celebrations. We have helped out there with an amount of $150,000. The Music Industry Association of Newfoundland and Labrador, for the first time, with $200,000. The Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council and grants to Arts and Culture and Heritage organizations, of course you are familiar with them and we can go through those in detail.

The Rooms, as many of you are aware, Budget 2004 has outlined the decision to defer the opening of The Rooms for one year. This decision was taken to help address the fiscal situation of the Province and will result in an estimated $2 million savings. I add to that, with ongoing discussions and so on now - and I would be glad to update you on it anytime. I will say to the critic, that we can have discussions about that. We have already started with different arts communities, on the decision to defer the opening. On the bright side of that, also to include the arts community in a more meaningful way in the opening of The Rooms next year, which we will be opening next year. I will say that in the Estimates and I have said it in public and officially anywhere. To include a positive note on that, it is the arts community that, as a matter of fact, the critic asked me to meet with, and I did that. It will give them a more meaningful involvement in the actual opening when The Rooms do open.

With the combination of the fiscal restraint and the fact that decisions on the readiness of the opening of The Rooms for this particular year - if we had to go through with the opening this year at the time that was suggested, there were some possible complications with that, right from the actual construction to the actual exhibits and it would have been a rush to get it open this year. That is feedback from all aspects of it. I am certainly willing to answer any questions or discuss that with you. Besides the fiscal restraint of opening this year and the savings, was the whole issue of actually being ready to open The Rooms this year. I am certainly going to entertain any questions on that.

While we recognize the value of The Rooms project, we also recognize that during times of fiscal restraint difficult decisions have to be made, and this was one of them. As I say, we will continue to discuss those. We remain open with the significant part of the long-term sustainable plan for Newfoundland and Labrador into the future, with The Rooms as part of that plan. The Rooms will be completed. Of course, we will get an update on the actual construction phase and so on, within days actually. In the meantime, we will strive to offer and make accessible as many programs and services as possible within existing facilities such as the Provincial Museum and the Provincial Archives. There are some plans to use and utilize those as we head into the summer.

Beginning this summer, we will also move collections - this is information for you - belonging to the Art Gallery Provincial Museum. This is from meetings and so on, and was suggested by you, as a matter of fact, to move Provincial Archives to temperature controlled vaults at The Rooms. As a matter of fact, that is something that was suggested and it is a good idea. In other words, if we can use those temperature controlled vaults down there - because one of the criticisms of the arts and so on is, where they are in the Province they are actually deteriorating because of lack of temperature control and those types of things. Those vaults are down there. We will get a final update very soon on when they are ready and so on, so we can actually put things in there even though The Rooms is not open. They are empty vaults with the temperature controls and all of that type of thing in place. The security and actual preservation of the arts can go ahead. There is no reason why that cannot go ahead.

I do not see it in these notes here, but, for example, on the weddings and so on, they will be able to go ahead. If people understand that it is an empty building, they can use The Rooms. One of the reasons for the weddings was the view, that is what they liked about it, so they can still use that. Anything we can do to accommodate those type of things, we will do, and continue consultation with the people who have booked things and so on.

This will ensure that these important collections from all three institutions are adequately stored until they are put on public display, when The Rooms actually opens. While we realize there is a concern about delayed opening, I have met and will continue to meet with representatives of the arts and heritage communities to answer any questions they may have and to seek their views on the actual opening. This extra year will allow government to work with these important stakeholders and The Rooms' Board of Directors to ensure that when The Rooms opens it will be a facility that we can all be proud of.

Mr. Chairman, I am not going to go on with a lot more in opening because I know in questions back and forth we will repeat these things, that these will be brought up again. These are just some of the points but, of course, I invite you ask questions. I will say to you, that the update from yesterday and the indicators, we are getting those continuously from our shows that are around. The ministers who have been involved with that know that continues, with the officials that travel to these travel media shows. I will have some more updates as we go through the day.

I can tell you - and I think it was the Member for Grand Bank who mentioned it in one of her statements earlier - the indicators we are getting, as we get every year, are just steadily growing. Every time we get a report it is better. The timing for it and the international travel - I guess that says a lot, to be related with the trends in the world, especially. It is amazing. Sometimes we think these things are far away from us, but actual trends in the world are landing people in places like Newfoundland and Labrador and Eastern Canada for a quite, pristine, safe place to go. The timing is good for tourism, and I look forward to your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Shelley.

Before I get to the Committee members, I just want to remind the officials here this morning that the proceedings are being recorded for Hansard and if you answer a question that you identify yourself before you speak.

The critic now, or the Vice-Chair.

MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, I am going to pass on to the critic for the department, the Member for the Bay of Islands.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

First of all, I am not used to being called a critic because I am so easygoing.

MR. SHELLEY: That is news to me.

MR. JOYCE: The second thing I will say, Mr. Chairman, is that even when someone else is footing the bill, Mr. Shelley still will not take me to breakfast.

MR. SHELLEY: (Inaudible).

MR. JOYCE: I guess, if it was after six o'clock he would have no problem, but early in the morning he usually has a problem.

MR. SHELLEY: Actually, I was here very early this morning, 6:30 a.m.

MR. JOYCE: First of all, as the minister mentioned - I will go to page 162, because there are a few people in the room concerning the arts community and The Rooms. For their pleasure, so they will not have to sit all day listening to us going through the details, there is a bit of information there.

First of all, I thank the minister because I met with the group and I asked the group, would it be better to sit down with the minister first, and myself and Jack Harris asked the minister to meet with the group and the minister did so. Thank you very much. I acknowledge that you did meet with them on the request and they had no problem whatsoever. Thank you very much for that.

Going to The Rooms, Mr. Minister, as you know it is a big topic, not just in St. John's but all over. I know what you just said, but is there a commitment that The Rooms will open next year and is there a date confirmed for that?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, there is a commitment, number one. A date, I will tell you, and I have said to the group, as a matter of fact, and some other people - I have had many other contacts, by whatever means, even people stopped me, people in the arts community. The date I want to set is in conjunction with the people I am speaking with in the arts community, and including the board. The board has made, as a matter of fact, some suggestions already. I am meeting with them very soon. I think there is a scheduled date with the board very soon. I want to tell the arts community, not just the board, that I want to hear what they are suggesting. I will tell you here that there are suggestions of Canada Day and some are thinking June 24^th. That is something that I would like to have discussed and people would have input on it. I am inviting anybody in the arts community to suggest dates. Some people think those are good dates and some people think they are not. Maybe they should pick their own date.

As far as the actual date, we will be setting it very soon, but I want to make sure the door is open for anybody in the arts community who would suggest certain dates and what reason they are suggesting them.

MR. JOYCE: Will you present that in writing to anybody, or myself, once the date is set?

MR. SHELLEY: Once the date is set, I will notify you, I will notify the board immediately, and anybody else. I think even looking at a date is important. If you do say Canada Day, some people agree with it. That is just an example, by the way, one of the suggestions I have heard from people who I have spoken to. I said, you decide and discuss that. I am not stuck on any particular date. I think the arts community should have a particular say in that. I will notify you as soon as we have a date.

MR. JOYCE: Perfect.

The other thing is - this is an issue that I have mentioned to you and the arts community asked us to relay it to you, which obviously you are well aware of, you have taken steps to correct it - to have some of the art, which they feel is not being properly stored and maintained, moved to the temperature controlled area. Is there a time set for that? Is that ongoing, started yet or -

MR. SHELLEY: I am not hearing you really good.

As far as that goes, that is being worked on right now as we speak. I will try to get an update on it for you as quickly as possible. Basically, this is my understanding - maybe I will ask the Deputy to respond too - as quickly as we can do that and accommodate in any way, in that facility, for conservation purposes, conserving art and so on, in those vaults which are there now - it would be no extra cost - then we will do it.

Gary, do you want to respond to that?

MR. NORRIS: Mr. Joyce, I think what we are going to do is, probably in the next several weeks we will start that transfer. We are trying to get the provincial archives up and running again. They are down packing, and they are going to open in the next couple of weeks. The art gallery is closed for the next year. There is no reason why some of that material, in terms of art work, cannot be moved. In terms of the museum, they are going to open, I think, probably mid-June. There is stuff down there that can be moved in as well. It is going to start, certainly within a month.

MR. JOYCE: How much money is going to saved by not opening The Rooms? That is the question. Sometimes we hear $2 million, $1.2 million.

MR. SHELLEY: I will respond to that.

The number we had was approximately $2 million. I will say approximately, because it may even be a conservative amount. I will try these numbers off the top. I have heard $2.3 million to keep the facilities we have now operating. I believe that is the right number. In other words, for the archives and the museum to keep going as is.

MR. JOYCE: Is there any breakdown of the savings?

MR. SHELLEY: That will be the breakdown. This will be the basic breakdown of it. It is $2.3 million to keep what we have operating now. It is $400,000, I understand, from Transportation and Works, to basically keep security and heat in the building, so that is $2.7 million. This is where we can get right down to the nitty-gritty details of it, very soon, I think. We said $400,0000 miscellaneous. That is for unpacking and miscellaneous, (inaudible) expenses, and those type of things. You add all of that up and it is $3.1 million. Those are our expenses. This is the comment I want to make today, which is very important I believe, as it was sort of lost in the debate. That would be $3.1 million. We have come to a number, which is not a final number, and this is the whole argument on part of The Rooms not opening.

I will say this here in the Estimates this morning, as a new minister in this department, from the time I went there until the time we were trying to decide on whether The Rooms would open, we had never settled on the appropriate amount to open The Rooms. This year, if there is an advantage at all, it will give us the time to discuss that. I have heard, as the minister, and I have stated here this morning, $6.6 million was mentioned by the board to open it. Officials in the department were saying somewhere around $4.1 million or $4.2 million. We were somewhere around the middle when we were considering opening for this year, at around $5.1 million. That $5.1 million target has not been finalized. It could be a bit more, when we finally decide to open it next year. Who knows that? That is the whole idea. With this whole year, we will get time - and I am quite clear frank about this, because I have sat in those meetings to find out if it is $5.1 million. This year will give us the time, with the board, with officials, and with people in the arts community, to find a final number that will open The Rooms for next year. As of right now, I cannot tell you what it is.

If it is $5.1 million, and it could be more - that is why I said it was conservative to save $2 million. If it is $3.1 million to keep it as is for this year, closed, and $5.1 million was a target that we had set to possibly open The Rooms, then there is a difference of $2 million. What I am saying, if there is more to open The Rooms, it could end up to be $5.2 million, $5.3 million, or $5.5 million, then we are actually saving whatever that extra amount is. That is why I tell you those numbers.

MR. JOYCE: That is why I gave you a chance to clarify it, because you hear different figures.

When the final figures are in, will we be able to get a breakdown of the actual savings, the anticipated savings, once this is finally done?

MR. NORRIS: Yes, Mr. Joyce. I can probably give you a little bit of a breakdown now based on a $5.2 million or $5.3 million budget. Our core, as the minister said, is about $2.3 million. That is the existing staff we having working in the institutions right now together with operating costs. To move into the new building, for heat, light, security, you are talking about $1.7 million. Just to heat that building is about a $1 million expense, $900,000. In terms of extra staff that would be hired, because the facility is three times as large in terms of programming space than what we have right now, to hire extra staff - we have a board of sixteen or seventeen members for the governance - it could be anywhere up $1.6 million, and to offset some revenue here probably $300,000 to $400,000. That brings you down to around $5.2 million or $5.3 million.

MR. SHELLEY: That is why we say around $2 million.

MR. JOYCE: Once the funding is determined, would you mind forwarding me a copy of the actual breakdown?

MR. NORRIS: We are working it through with the board, and certainly the board is having input. The ADM, Brent Meade, and myself met with the board, with the Chair and the Vice-Chairman specifically, and are starting to work through the numbers. We will do that over the coming months.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Perfect.

For the board itself, the Terms of Reference and I am sure the legislation, has that all been put through? Is that all in place right now?

MR. NORRIS: The legislation right now is not. It is drafted. It is not ready to go into the House for this session. It will be ready for the fall session, I expect.

MR. JOYCE: So legislation is not in place yet?

MR. NORRIS: No, no. It was not finalized.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Another concern that was expressed to me on several occasions is the curators. There is a concern that some of the professional people that were working there are laid off now and may not be around next year, because, of course, they cannot sit around for a year waiting to see if they are going to get some work. Their concern is that they may lose some professional people.

MR. SHELLEY: That is a good point. I am glad you asked the question here, because I have talked about it to a point in some of the meetings we have had. It is something that needs to clarified for everybody's sake.

First, I want to do this, Mr. Chairman, welcome people from the arts community here. There are some of them here and I think that is a good idea, because with the more information you get a lot of the times, the picture comes clearer. I am glad you are here and I welcome you here this morning.

I am going to let Brent respond in a second, but I just want to say this: On the transitional staff that were working up to that point when we made the decision, of course, their contract would have run out in June. Some of it was in June. Some, at this point right now, are back in the transitional movement, as we speak. I think it is six or seven back right now out of the twenty-four. It was twenty-four. Some would have finished anyway in June, with the transition that they were doing. There are seven back now, and we may be using some more of those in the next little while. I will let Brent carry on with that now.

MR. MEADE: Twenty-four transitional positions were eliminated. Of the twenty-four positions, they would break down basically into two groups. Some of them would have been working on projects that were very specific to transition, as preparing documents and preparing collections to move into The Rooms. Once that was completed their contracts would have been completed, clearly.

Another group would have been working on other parts and other functions of the institutions and there would have been the hope that they would have continued into The Rooms Corporation. Obviously, with the delay this year, as we move into our HR planning and our budget planning for the opening next year, that is when we will determine exactly how many of the twenty-four can come back. Of the twenty-four that have been laid off, six have been recalled back now. No, it is seven. There are seven that have been called back now and are working within the institutions, six with the provincial museum to finish the permanent exhibit, and that was an important part of obviously moving into The Rooms, to complete the permanent exhibit. They are on contract until the end of October. A curator position with the Art Gallery of Newfoundland and Labrador has been renewed as well.

MR. JOYCE: The curator has been renewed?

MR. MEADE: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Perfect.

MR. SHELLEY: Just to -

MR. JOYCE: Go ahead.

MR. SHELLEY: Just to keep on with that, the number twenty-four, it really was confusing in the beginning. The twenty-four transitional staff, as I understand it, all of those would not go into permanent staff when The Rooms opens. Some people believe that they were part of a transitional staff. There are some who we can use at this point who are important, especially for the permanent exhibit. That is what is key. That can continue on, that is being done, and I think that is important to note.

MR. JOYCE: Their concern, Minister, was that in order to open The Rooms, say by next May or June, you need those people on staff now to get The Rooms in place, to get the art gallery set up, and to get everything set up. You cannot say you are going to open in June and go down and get staff hired in June to start opening in June. It has to be done - I do not know - five or six months prior.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: The other thing, Minister - and I am sure you are aware of it because I mentioned it yesterday. Congratulations on the statistics, by the way, for tourism. It is great for the Province, and anything that is good for the Province is good for all of us. As I mentioned yesterday, the quicker we can get a confirmation out, of the date that The Rooms is going to open, the better opportunity we will have to start getting national and international exposure back into the Province. That is their concern. This year for different reasons, as you mentioned, probably giving more time to do it properly, whatever the reason - if we can get a date out as soon as possible, the arts community can start exposing The Rooms all across Canada, North America, and all over the world. That is their big concern.

Their other concern is, if we are going to open, say, June 1 next year, is that the planning has to start almost now. I am no expert, but you need people on now to get The Rooms ready for next year, six, seven, eight months prior. It is no good to have people just come on. I do not know if you want to respond to that or not. That is the main reason why the community itself, the arts community, would like a date, so that they can start promoting it again. When they have the art shows coming through, it is almost like a tour and they have to fit it into the tour somehow. The quicker we know the quicker they would know, and the quicker we would be able to promote The Rooms.

MR. SHELLEY: I want to say that I totally agree with you, we need a date. I want a date, as early as we can get it. As I said, by consulting with the board and anybody in the arts community who wants input on that, in setting a date, we are going to try to get that date. I agree that is a priority. You are right, the timing needs to be clarified. Of course, that will lead into some of the comments you made yesterday on the exhibitions and so on. I am willing to answer anything on that, to update that, because the fact of the matter is that this estimates committee gives us a great opportunity for that particular issue, which, because of other issues, I feel has not got the, I guess, public view and so on lost in so many other issues throughout the last month or two. Let's put it that way. We need to clarify then, so that we are all working together on this.

I want to give the message, which I have given to the group and I will give to you as the critic, that I want to work with the arts community to set that date and to move to that date. We made a decision for this year, agree or disagree or indifferences or whatever. My attitude is to work with the community, work towards that date, and to open this properly when we open it because the history of it is long and it is going to be important for this Province. I agree with setting a date and getting ready.

MR. JOYCE: I am not trying to get a date here now, but is there any time frame when there would be a date decided upon?

MR. SHELLEY: The best answer and the most frank answer I can give you is, as soon as possible in conjunction with the board. Anybody who wants to have input - and I have put that out publicly - anybody who wants to have input, and certainly the people in the arts community, from any angle, even if it just suggestions through e-mails or phone calls or another meeting with the group that you mentioned already, any type of communication like that, the point being the faster I can get those communications, then we can all sit down, go back and forth through these dates and set a date. So, as soon as possible, and I will give you that date when we have it.

MR. JOYCE: To be the fair to the arts community, the groups that I met in the arts community, they want to work with the department. They understand the co-operation that they have with the arts community. Of course, their displeasure was shown in a number of protests and -

MR. SHELLEY: I appreciate that.

MR. JOYCE: - that is part of it, but they always express that they work well with the department, so there is no hesitation for them, at any time, to get involved with the Department of Tourism, I can assure you of that. One of the reasons they wanted to meet with you personally, to explain what they were doing, to be up front with you, is because they know once this is open they are going to have to deal with your department from here until eternity anyway. It is an issue of where they had to express their concerns and displeasure, and I, as the critic - I, as the opposition for Tourism. I just do not like critic.

MR. SHELLEY: No, I understand. May I just make a comment on that, Mr. Joyce?

MR. JOYCE: Sure.

MR. SHELLEY: The fact of the matter is, as you said, a member of the group, on your suggestion and Mr. Harris's suggestion, I think it was just a couple of days after, came to the decision to sit in on a meeting, even at the highest point of their frustration, just finding out the news and so on, I sensed even then that once the decision is made we have to move forward from the decision. I respect your take on this from the Opposition's position too, that you have handled it the right way. I will say that to you. A lot of times things can get muddled, as we know, in the political field. This is so important, I do not think it is the time to play with it and that is why the door is open to you and the members of the community. I just want to move ahead with it. There was a decision made, but do you know what? I think when we do open this next year, it will be bigger and better than we even planned for this year.

MR. JOYCE: I will just ask the last question that was on my mind, and this is coming from me. Was there ever a cost analysis done for keeping The Rooms open as compared to closing it, for the amount of shows they would lose, exhibitions, tourism, et cetera?

MR. SHELLEY: The deputy will speak to that.

MR. NORRIS: Yes, there was, Mr. Joyce. We have twelve exhibits that were scheduled to open in The Rooms had it opened this past summer. We are losing two exhibits, and the total cost of the loss of those two exhibits is approximately $9,000. The other exhibits will be coming forward next year. As a matter of fact, one of the exhibits is going to open next month. It is the French exhibit, it is an archival exhibit, of various documents coming for the first time from France, that will be displayed, now, down in the museum even though it is an archival exhibit. We are fitting that up for, I think, the end of next month. That is the cost.

MR. JOYCE: Can I get a copy of that?

MR. NORRIS: I can give you that.

MR. JOYCE: I do not want anything that is confidential to you or anything.

MR. NORRIS: No, no. You can certainly have it. This lists the various initiatives and stats.

MR. SHELLEY: You mentioned some yesterday, I think, in your response, the exhibits and so on. That was a fair update. I was hoping for a question on it, to be honest with you, to get it clarified. That is important, because those people had planned to come this year. We have contacted them, I think - Brent can update this shortly - but out of the twelve we contacted most were enthusiastic. I think it was over 90 per cent, if I remember the number, who said, we understand you made a decision there, but we are certainly enthusiastic and interested for next year, including, by the way, the Board of Trustees with the National Gallery. We have contacted and talked to them, they understand the delay for this year, and are enthusiastic about making those dates for next year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Just on more of a closer note: The Corner Brook Exhibition Centre in Corner Brook was canceled. Was that a cost-shared agreement, federal-provincial?

MR. SHELLEY: Brent will answer that in a second, but I would like to comment on the Exhibition Centre first of all, and this was in the budgetary decision. When you look at it overall, the big picture, I am glad that you asked the question. If we are sitting down here with a $47 million facility, which is going to be an icon for this Province, and we have to open it - it is delayed. I will just restate that, because I have to put the exhibition in perspective. Brent can give you the particulars of the cost-sharing and the history of what was going to happen in Corner Brook. At this time, we cannot open this for this year, we could not make a just decision saying that we are going ahead with the Exhibition Centre at this time. Anything that we can do on the West Coast to enhance that community, outside of building another Exhibition Centre or going ahead with the Exhibition Centre, we will do it. At this time, we cannot see, in the financial situation we talked about and the situation with The Rooms, proceeding with the Exhibition Center.

MR. JOYCE: Is it cost-shared, federal-provincial?

MR. MEADE: There was no cost-shared agreement with the federal government on the Exhibition Center, it was to be provincially funded.

MR. JOYCE: I guess I am just a bit curious, because during and before the election it was highly touted by certain candidates out on the West Coast as a great feature to Corner Brook and the fine arts program in Corner Brook, and all of a sudden it is just cancelled. The total justification was monetary and it will not be reconsidered? Am I correct in that? Because it was cancelled, it was not deferred.

MR. SHELLEY: I want to make a point on that. I will have to verify this and I will get it for you, but as far as the cost-shared part of it, I understand the MP for the area at the time was looking at some type of funding to -

OFFICIAL: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: Right. If I understand correctly, and I will get this clarified, it never did come, the federal response there.

MR. NORRIS: The minister is quite correct, there was representation made to the federal member. He had indicated publicly that there was going to be support. When we heard that, we wrote him on that point, asking for him to confirm that and we did not get confirmation.

MR. JOYCE: Is it cancelled? Is it off the books, not considered? It is the fine arts community out on the West Coast with a degree in the fine arts, and it would be great. As you know, and I am sure the officials know, the Cormack museum was going to move up there. It was going to be a smaller version of The Rooms for the West Coast, which was great for the whole West Coast.

MR. SHELLEY: I will respond to that.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: I heard different interpretations, and I guess everybody can interpret and everybody is going to do different interpretations. The project as is, that was on the books, is cancelled. I met as late as - and this is an update for you - yesterday afternoon with the President of Grenfell College. I explained the situation, why we made the decision this year, as I just said to you. If we can look at other ways to enhance or bring forward a new proposal or to add something else or to update things out there, all of those options, which were looked at before, by the way, by the previous Administration, updating, I think, the museum at Grenfell - they were looking at some upgrading. I forget the amount of money, and I even saw the amount. Well, you would know it, and we can get that for you. It was suggested upgrading the museum that was there. I think it was somewhere around $500,000, if I remember properly. All those options were looked at before. With the cancellation of the Exhibition Center, as is on the table, whether there is something done next year, an upgrade to a point, or in two years time, that you put another exhibition center on the table as a new proposal, that is open.

MR. JOYCE: The one right now is cancelled?

MR. SHELLEY: The one now is cancelled!

MR. JOYCE: The other big issue, and is not just St. John's but it is all over Newfoundland and Labrador, and I met with people in Corner Brook, is the art procurement.

MR. SHELLEY: I will make some comments on that.

MR. JOYCE: That is $200,000 that was beneficial to -

MR. SHELLEY: I am glad for this question, to confirm it, coming in as a new minister in that department, the list of art procurement. I can tell you, on the second day after walking into the office as minister, I got a full update of the Art Procurement Program as it stands. Nobody would argue, and I certainly would not, that it is a great program and we want it to continue. For this year, not just on budgetary - as a matter of fact, it had a lot to do with the situation of the art procurement as is, and it really bothered me. On the second day I was there I started the inventory. As a matter of fact, I started right in my own office, signed everything that was in my office. I asked the same thing, to go through the entire department, which is still ongoing. To find out there was so much unaccounted for, to find out there were so many artist in the past who have talked about the state of the art, not only where it was but the condition it was in, was it being preserved, was it in some hall where nobody saw it, was it damp - all of those concerns came out in a review that I saw. Right away, not just the counting of the paintings and where they were at the time, all the art, not just the paintings, and the condition of the art, I could not, as a new minister, get those answers at that point. That is why we are doing the inventory, why. it is continuing now. As of today, I think, there is close to 90 per cent of the art accounted for, so it is almost completed. I think, even your own offices, everybody right throughout the Province, have been doing this inventory. That should be completed, I understand, within weeks. That will be finalized. The whole accountability, every piece of art, 2,347 - I must remember the number - is the total of what we have so far. That is almost accounted for. It should be completed within two weeks. Hopefully, it will all be accounted for at that time, when we will give a full report to you; and also the condition of it at the time.

Right now that is passed on to the art gallery. The Art Procurement Program is passed on to them. For this year, it was not just solely a budgetary decision. There is a saving of $200,000, but the condition and the accountability of the art, as of now, is not completed. When it is completed, I am hoping to continue with that program for next year.

MR. JOYCE: So it was not just a budgetary decision?

MR. SHELLEY: No.

MR. JOYCE: Again, I am not arguing the point, because the art that is in the offices under Work Services and Transportation, all of our offices have to sign in for art when we get it and we sign out when we leave. I know, when I left the Premier's office in Corner Brook we had the inventory sent out and it was from Work Services. It was never done by the Department of Tourism. Work Services were the ones where we signed art in and out.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, but it is in our department, the Art Procurement Program.

MR. JOYCE: I know the art procurement is, but if you are looking for art and if you have to keep track of the art, it is done through Works Services, because that is who we sign in and sign out with.

MR. NORRIS: This is the understanding, this is the way it is, actually: Our department, Tourism, Culture and Recreation, has responsibility for the acquisition of new art works as well as the maintenance of those works. In other words, if you move offices, you are supposed to advise our Art Procurement Officer, Pat Donnelly, of the move. He would arrange to have the art work moved with you and a record would be kept and put in our database, as to where that artwork is now located. The gentlemen from Transportation and Works may physically pick up the piece and move it for you as you are moving, but they are not even supposed to do that. I know they do it, because have done it for me in terms of my movement, but really the Art Procurement Officer is the person who is supposed to move it. Really it is not Transportation ands Works, it resides within our department.

MR. JOYCE: Well, I can assure you what I signed had a Transportation and Works headline, and the person who went around my office to check every piece of art was Transportation and Works, and then when I-

MR. SHELLEY: I will make a comment on that.

MR. JOYCE: I am just saying what I signed. I am not saying it is right or wrong, I am just saying, if this was a concern for the art procurement because of what is happening - and, of course, I am not being confrontational. Obviously, there is government confusion there. It is not your department, it is Transportation and Works. I was confused, I did not know that was the procedure, to be honest. I did not know.

My concern is, here we have the local artists being hurt, $200,000, because we have government bureaucracy. Obviously now, as you are saying, Minister, there is over 90 per cent, as of today, accounted for. I know, about a year to a year and a half ago the Auditor General did it and when they came back they found 97 per cent and 98 per cent of the art, and it was all accounted for. There were one or two pieces missing, though, when they dug into it. I think out of all of the art there were ten pieces that they could not find. That was going back since 1989, and this was, I think, a year and a half or two years ago, because I sat on the Public Accounts.

What is happening, here is $200,000 hurting the local community, because - and I am apart of it because I was there for fifteen years - the Department of Tourism has now cancelled this. They did not know where the art was, which we all assumed - and I am sure the minister, when you were in Opposition, when you got art you contacted Mr. Baker who worked with Works Services.

MR. SHELLEY: Well, I would just like to respond to that.

MR. JOYCE: Sure.

MR. SHELLEY: As a matter of fact, you are right, there is confusion about it. When I was getting briefed, as you do as a new minister, about different programs and everything, that was another thing that came out, who really does it, who is not supposed to be doing it and who is supposed to be actually handling the art. I have had artists who have said to me that they saw their paintings down in a hall. Not knowing where it was, who was being accountable for it, and the whole program, to be quite frank about it, the accountability of it, that is why I think it is a good move right now. I think all of us will agree that the Art Gallery itself will now handle that, once we have a handle on it in its entirety, where it is, the condition it is in, whether we should move some into vaults and protect it, or whether we should restore some. All of those things now will be with the Art Gallery and all these issues, including the one you just brought up, we will get a handle on. In a nutshell, I do not think there was a handle on it overall. I had criticism about it, as an Opposition member myself. I think this will get it back on track, knowing exactly where every single piece is. That is our responsibility. If there is one that we do not know of, we have to find it, find out what it is, plus find out the condition of it, give it to the Art Gallery under the new Rooms corporation, and on a go-forward basis have a better account of the whole situation.

MR. JOYCE: I am going to ask you a question that I know is hard for you to answer, and I may be putting you on the spot.

MR. SHELLEY: Go ahead.

MR. JOYCE: Seeing that there was confusion within the government and all departments, not just your department, and, of course, I was confused on it because I know what I signed, when I got it and who came in to sign if off for me, is there anyway within the budget of Tourism, if the art is found, to put some kind of replacement in for the art procurement, even if it is not $200,000, just something for a small initiative? Now, I am not asking you to change your budgetary process here, but something within the Department of Tourism somewhere along the way. I know, Minister, you know, and I know the staff knows, this is great for the local artist.

MR. SHELLEY: Oh, I know.

MR. JOYCE: It gives him a little boost. If you do that, I can assure you, you will not hear a word from me that the budget is changed or you found money within the department. I am not trying to put you on the spot, but is there something you would consider, if you find out most of the art is where it is supposed to be, or maybe moved to another office, or somebody did not take it with them or something like that? I can assure you, the arts community that I spoke to on the West Coast and in St. John's feels that it was a totally budgetary cut because it was not important.

MR. SHELLEY: First of all, it is very important. I deal with artists myself in my own district, and I have had comments for years, as Opposition, as to how important that was, a small amount of money that meant a lot. As a new minister in this department, I appreciate that and I know how important it is. It was not strictly a budgetary decision. It was the fact that I was dealing with what I dealt with the second day I walked into that office, which artists had described to me over the years, you know, at different times: Where is it? Is it in good shape? What do we have? A full handle on it, is what I just said to you. As far as consideration for something for this year, at this point in time I cannot commit to that. I mean, we are under a fiscal situation. You do not want me to go through that spiel again today. If there was money that we could use or if there was something that I could do, I would like to do it, but I certainly would not be able to commit to it here today.

MR. JOYCE: I am saying, within the budget. I would not expect you to be able to go to Treasury Board to get additional funds. I am saying, something within the department, for example, if the cost estimate for The Rooms is a bit lower, or the opening is a bit lower somehow, or once you get your final analysis of The Rooms, if you were going to save $2.1 million and you find out you saved $2.4 million or $2.2 million within your own budget. It is not a request to go to Treasury Board to seek more funds, because I know that would be over and above. I am just saying, once you do the analysis of The Rooms and the opening up the new gallery now, if there are some savings within there, just consider it.

MR. SHELLEY: I will put it to you this way, if there was - and that is a moving target now as far as nailing down this number, because we are going, as I say, to work with the board and work with the arts community on doing it - and if there is money found, I would look at it.

MR. JOYCE: Excellent! From you, Minister, I take that as a fair commitment.

MR. SHELLEY: I appreciate the question, because I feel the same way about the program as you do.

MR. JOYCE: Just the makeup on the board - and I am not going to get into it because the legislation is not here - do they have the number of people, not the individuals but the number, selected for the board, the number to go on the board?

MR. NORRIS: I am sorry, Mr. Joyce, I did not hear the question.

MR. JOYCE: The number of the people to go on the board for The Rooms.

MR. NORRIS: There are eighteen people on the board, as we speak, with one official, which is the ADM of the department. I attend meetings as well. We meet on a quarterly basis. Dr. Priscilla Renouf, who is the head of the archeology department at Memorial University, is the Chair. The Vice-Chair is Mr. Tom Foran. They are a very committed group of people representative throughout the Province, business people, people in the arts community, of various persuasions, visual artists and the like, a very good group of people, I have to say.

This coming year, albeit The Rooms is not opening, they have their work plan. They are going to be looking at a strategic plan that will be something that will be followed by the staff for years to come in terms of how this facility is going to operate. That is going to be a big piece of work. The fact that The Rooms is not opening does not mean that this group will be sitting idly by doing nothing.

They were disappointed. The minister and I met with them, the Chair and the Vice-Chair, the day the Budget came down. They were disappointed, but they recognize there is an opportunity to move forward and to lay out a good plan for the opening next year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, I will just give you an opportunity to respond to this, because it is a concern that was expressed to me, that I said I would express to you and give you a chance to clarify it. There has been concern expressed, rumours which I cannot confirm, that the roof is leaking on some of the art.

MR. SHELLEY: I will respond to that.

MR. JOYCE: I am bringing it up, so you can respond to it.

MR. SHELLEY: I have heard that comment from people in the art community. I understand, too, in the provincial archives building - as a matter of fact, that was one of the suggestions, that I go for a tour there - in particular, there was a leak, dampness and so on. I am going to get an update on that, even a tour if the facilities, very soon as a matter of fact. I have heard the comment much like you. As a matter of fact, I have heard it a few times. I think it was in our meeting with COMA that it was mentioned, and I think the board mentioned it, some dampness and leaking, that sort of thing.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Yes. Because of that comment that was brought to us - and I just do not recall who the group was. I think it was COMA that mentioned it also. Everybody pretty well mentioned it. That is the reason we are looking into that now, to see if we can move some things into The Rooms right now, into those vaults, to get them away from that situation. Anything we can do to mitigate that problem, we are going to do it and we are going to do it as quick as we can.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: I am just going to take a break. My colleague wants to ask a few questions. I am sure I will be back again.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Before we do that, I would like to give the opportunity to the government members on the Committee to see if they have either question or not. Members on the government side, do you have a question at this point in time? No one, okay.

We will move back to Mr. Reid.

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, I guess I have to be the bad cop today. I am going to make a few comments and I do not want you to be personally affronted by these comments, because I have known you, I guess, since 1993, and I have always found you to be a very honest and upfront individual. You made the comment that The Rooms were definitely opening next year, and if it were up to you and you only, or your officials, I would certainly take their word as well because I have worked with them and found them to be very professional, very upfront, very honest individuals, and if you gave me the commitment that it was opening next year, and it was your decision and your decision only, or your department, I would take that to the bank.

Unfortunately, your Premier, Mr. Williams, visited my district prior to and during the election and made commitments in rooms around my district, not like this one obviously, but town council offices and so on, and gave commitments to these people that he broke in the last few months. Again, it has nothing to do with you, because I believe what you are telling me. Unfortunately, my colleague from Grand Bank here, the Premier, Mr. Williams, gave a commitment to the people in that district during the election that he was going to build the hospital there. In fact, the steel was up on the building. It is my understanding that in the next few weeks we are going to see bulldozers - the steel is coming down, if it is not already down, and we are going to see bulldozers bulldozing those footings into the ground. We will have to wait and see if the commitment will be honored, and if The Rooms will open next year and not some time down the road.

Your colleague, the Minister of Education, Mr. Ottenheimer, went to Gander a week before the Budget came down and gave a commitment to the school board in that area, some fifteen or twenty individuals, that the school boards would not be amalgamated this year or reduced in number. If I were in that meeting, I would have believed Mr. Ottenheimer, because again I have known him for the last ten years, and I am certain that he did not deliberately mislead these people.

The point I am trying to make is that, having been a Cabinet Minister myself, I know the process you went through in the pre-budget consultations, I also know that you fought, in the Budget, I am sure you did, to have enough money to open The Rooms on schedule, and I am sure you fought for the procurement of art, that portion of your budget. I have been there. There are things that you fight for that you do not get. I have also sat around the table with some of the same officials that you did in Treasury Board, where every time there was a need for more money for The Rooms - I think that the original estimate was probably $40 million and now it is up to $60-something.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible)

MR. REID: Forty-seven-something. Every time that came up, I heard what some of the officials in Treasury Board said about extensions onto The Rooms.

My point, I guess, is, I certainly hope that your Leader and the Minister of Finance honor the commitment that you made here this morning, because, to be truthful with you right now, if they were saying it here today I would certainly doubt it. I would not put a lot of faith in the commitment when one considers the number of commitments that were made to my district that have since been broken, such as to eliminate the cost of ferry rides in my district, and then increase them by 26 per cent. I can go on about opening the hospital on Fogo Island, and we find today that only half of it is going to open, and the list goes on and on.

I do not mean to insult you, because, like I said, if it was you and your officials telling me, certainly I would not even be talking about it. The fact of the matter is, you still have the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board to deal with and you still have the Premier. I guess, until we see it in the budget next year and the announcement is made, then I will have more comfort that it is going to be done.

What is the cost of operation of the buildings that are currently operating with regard to art and heritage in the Province, like the museum, the archives, and all that?

MR. SHELLEY: Two point three million dollars.

MR. REID: Two point three million dollars. When you say that you do not have the additional money, you factored in what it is costing us to operate these facilities they are compared to?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, we have that cost in there.

MR. REID: You also said that you were going to try to get the vaults at The Rooms opened for artifacts and art, and that the meeting room or the banquet room upstairs, you are going to try and get that opened as well. Have you also looked at the cost of, basically, mothballing The Rooms even though you are going to keep these two, hopefully, in operation. When you actually did the budget on this, you looked at that as well and you are still - what? - $1 million short you are saying?

MR. SHELLEY: The deputy can go ahead and answer that.

MR. NORRIS: The cost of mothballing, in terms of heat and light and some minimal security, Mr. Reid, is around, I estimate, between $400,000 to $600,000. That is estimates given to us by the Department of Transportation and Works.

MR. REID: Were you the deputy minister, Gary, when the briefing was given us last year on The Rooms and the opening of The Rooms.

MR. NORRIS: No, I wasn't. I have been there just over a year now.

MR. REID: Yes. There was a woman in your department who gave the briefing. I think she has since moved to another department. I forget her name.

MR. NORRIS: Heather MacLellan.

MR. REID: Heather MacLellan, yes.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it was my understanding in that briefing that she gave to Cabinet, that The Rooms were, basically, going to pay for themselves in terms of operation. Is that correct?

MR. NORRIS: No, I would not agree with that comment. The revenue that is estimated right now that we would generate, I think, would probably be in the $300,000 to $400,000 range. As time goes on, you may build some further excitement into that and get more people through the place. That is probably a conservative estimate, but there is no way it is going to pay for itself.

MR. REID: So, you are saying $300,000 to $400,000. Once The Rooms are complete and open, what is going to be the cost of operation again?

MR. NORRIS: My own personal view is about $5.2 million dollars minimum.

MR. REID: That is certainly not the impression that I got in that meeting. Maybe I am wrong, because I kept saying to myself in the room, I will believe it when I see it, you know, if it is going to pay for itself, and it is not meant to. I can remember going to a conference in Whitehorse the year that they had the flood in Manitoba, the Red River, and that city was devastated. It was a mayors' and government officials' conference and the Minister of Recreation, Culture and Tourism for Manitoba, I think, was there and they were announcing that they were building something similar. She said: It may sound strange that where the province has been devastated and it is going to cost us hundreds of millions of dollars to repair, we are still proceeding with the construction of this building because it is our belief that every generation should build something to pass on to future generations and costs should not be a concern. Even though we are faced with hard times here in the Province, I agree with the lady from Manitoba, even though it was the first time I heard it said that way. I do not think that either art or recreation in the Province should be looked on as a cost recovery project, because that is not the reason for it.

If you are saying it is only $300,000 or $400,000, that seems to me to be somewhat low all the same, if you consider that obviously you are going to have to pay a fee to get in there and you are going to have these exhibits that are coming from around the world and you are going to be hosting banquets and conferences, because that is what it was touted for, as well. Government hosts a number of conferences around this city and most of them, I would think, right now are held in the hotels. At least we could be using a facility that the Province owns and pay the Province even though we are paying it out of our own pockets. At least it would not be going to the private individuals and companies that for the most part do not even have their headquarters here.

That is the comment and again, Minister, I hope I did not insult you with my comments but I needed to say them. I do not know if my colleague from Grand Bank wants to talk about The Rooms before we move off that.

CHAIR: We will soon have to get into the questioning on the subheads.

MR. SHELLEY: That is up to them.

MR. REID: It will not take as long to get through the subheads. We will go through them line by line, but obviously there are not a lot of changes there in your department. So that will not take us very long.

CHAIR: Ms Foote, you may go ahead now.

MS FOOTE: Thank you.

I do have some observations, but let me start as well, as my colleagues have done, and speak about our confidence in this minister. I sincerely believe that his heart is in the right place and that he fully intends to do everything he can to ensure that his department and this government does what it needs to do in terms of promoting this Province and ensuring that, at the end of the day, we preserve our culture and our heritage.

Having said that, I do have some concerns, and my colleague from Twillingate & Fogo alluded to some of it, and that is, any kind of commitment that we would get from the minister I take wholeheartedly, but I would be very concerned, even if it came in writing, I guess, at the end of the day, given my experience over the past six months. I hope that we are wrong, I hope that, at the end of the day, The Rooms will indeed open and that it will not become a white elephant. It is unfortunate that it is not opening in June as it was intended to. I see it as a wonderful facility, a recognition of the importance of the arts and our culture, and the fact that we were, for the first time, going to have a purposely built facility. It is unfortunate that it has been put on hold. I think it reflects poorly on the government and on the Province as a whole, because obviously it was being looked at throughout the country, the fact that we have so many exhibitions that were scheduled to open there and now have to go back into the roster as it were, and the touring, and probably not get here for some time. Having said that, it is a great facility and I would encourage you to do everything you can to make sure that it does indeed open next year.

I guess it is just an observation in terms of the tourism industry, as part of growing the economy of this Province. I think that we have all talked about the opportunity that is there, and opportunities lost as well. Speaking as the critic for Innovation, Trade and Rural Development and the value of the tourism industry to Newfoundland and Labrador, particularly to rural Newfoundland and Labrador, when you consider that we have so many communities in our Province spread out around ten miles of coastline, it is really important for us to come to the recognition that we are not going to have a lot of industry in those rural parts of Newfoundland and Labrador. What we have and what we have to build on is the opportunity there from tourism.

I would encourage the minister to do everything, during his tenure as Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, to make sure that the support is there for those who are, in fact, helping us grow that industry. No matter where you live in Newfoundland and Labrador, there is an opportunity, but we need to encourage our people, they need to be given the support to make it happen. I know that, within the Department of Innovation, Trade and Rural Development, there are opportunities. There is SEED money, and so on and so forth.

I am curious, in terms of growing the economy and the tourism aspect of that, what kind of support is there in the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation to help those who are doing what they can, or want to, to try and start businesses in rural Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. SHELLEY: I will make some comments and then I will pass it over to my ADM.

A couple of things I am really strong on, and I agree with you, in talking about rural Newfoundland - every indicator I got back, after being five or six months in this position, the key and the reason we are getting the indicators from around the world is, they are coming for the culture and heritage of this Province.

MS FOOTE: Absolutely.

MR. SHELLEY: There is no doubt about it, and that is why The Rooms is world-class and in the future it will be an icon. I agree with that. It is unfortunate for the year's delay. I agree with that. I went through that process and, as the Member for Twillingate & Fogo said, he knows that process. I want to move forward with that and I appreciate the criticisms, I have done it myself. I want to look forward to it, I am a very optimistic person anyway. Every time I have had anything to do with these indicators - I did a half hour radio show into the Eastern Seaboard, and we were only supposed to get ten minutes. It was not so much me doing the talking, but with the few comments I made I went from being allowed ten minutes to being allowed a half hour. Do you know what they zoned in on? The people, the culture and the heritage, and the safe place we live in. We got another indicator back just a couple of days ago, and that is the same response she got in Montreal.

What I am saying to you is, the culture and heritage combined with what you are talking about in rural Newfoundland - because that is what they want to do, they want to drive into a place like Twillingate with no lineups and no big confusions and just experience the people. On that particular radio show, what kept coming back was 9/11, in a funny sort of way, but the thing about the people here. You are right, we have the product, we have the raw product. What we have to do now is the product development strategy which I wanted to give a couple of comments on, and how we are trying to help the people in rural parts. I am trying to help them all of the time. I know members are getting these questions; I want to do a bed and breakfast, I want to do that. The product development strategy, which your administration - and I commend you for that - has been moving with that with ACOA for the last couple of years. It is just about complete, will be complete probably within weeks.

Basically, what that will give us, in all fairness for all of us, is an idea of what we have on the ground. It is great to say that we are going to increase marketing, and it is great that people are going to be coming here, but we have to have our things on the ground, although we have our natural things, as you said. We need those B&Bs, we need RV parks and sewage dumping sites, and all those things. We have to know what we have. That is going to be coming very soon and I think that is really going to lay out for all of us, as a provincial and federal government and ACOA, what we can do to help the groundwork get done so that people can come to places like Fleur de Lys and Twillingate and so on, because that is what they are coming for.

I think it is an important part that your administration started and I will commend you for that, because we are seeing draft copies of it now. It is about to be completed very, very shortly. That is going to be our blueprint for building our structure on the ground. As I said, marketing can keep on growing but we have to make sure that we keep up with our product.

I would ask the deputy-

MS FOOTE: If I could just interject for a second. Have you budgeted anything for this or are you just going to wait and see the strategy first and then determine in the next budget what your requirements are going to be?

MR. SHELLEY: There is some budgeting done to help as much as we can on the ground, but as far as the actual product development, I think that has to go hand in hand with that. You need that for your blueprint, your foundation really. You would understand, as a minister, that you have to have that to move on to your next stage. I think that would be the crux of it. I think it is going to be something that a lot of people have input on. I am looking forward to it, to be honest with you.

I ask the ADM to make some comments on what we do to help. Basically, as you know, we are not in capital, not in tourism, but to help as much as we can.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MR. JANES: The minister has really summarized it very well. Rightly or wrongly, we do not have large amounts of money in terms of direct capital to help with opportunities. What this strategy is doing for us - and, by the way, the strategy is been developed with support from the federal government, ACOA in particular. I think that speaks very well, because ACOA has, over time, put a lot of money into tourism development. We have found, over time, that without a defined strategy the funding does not always go where it should go. It goes where people think there are needs, but without a strategy sometimes the needs can be a little bit misplaced in terms of moving the agenda forward. The fact that we have ACOA on side and quite prepared to look at further development of the tourism industry against that strategy is really important to us.

We will certainly, as officials, once that strategy gets into place and we begin the process for the next budget year, be making recommendations to the minister and his colleagues, that we do need to begin to put some resources ourselves against tourism development, in partnership with the fund that is available through various federal and provincial funding agents, such as ITRD, to build the actual on-the-ground infrastructure. We clearly have a ways to go on that score, but I think the development of this strategy is really going to put us in a great position to go forward in a partnering kind of way with funding agencies and with whatever resources we can identify within our own department to begin to, might I say, have the product development catch up with our marketing. Over the last bunch of years we have done a great job on marketing. I think the numbers that the minister alluded to recently in his statement show that we, in fact, have been growing quite significantly over the last five or six years, but we also recognize, within government and within industry, that we need now to ensure that our product development keeps pace with our marketing.

MS FOOTE: Would the strategy be looking at four seasons, because I know that in a lot of cases we tend to focus just on the one season and miss a lot of opportunity there?

MR. SHELLEY: Just to make a comment on that, and also to add to what you were talking about earlier: Definitely the four seasons, I have always believed that; our winter tourism, the snowmobile industry, Marble Mountain and all of that. Not only that one, which I think is going to explode in the next couple of years, the skidooing industry especially - I should say snowmobiling industry - not only that, but our shoulder season. The shoulder season in Newfoundland, especially the fall -

MS FOOTE: Indian summer. That is the time to do it.

MR. SHELLEY: Indian summer, which is my favorite time of the year, by the way. The colors on the West Coast and all over the Province, really, through Green Bay and all that area, I think that is the big thing we have been missing.

On that note, I just want to let you know that we are a couple of weeks away, with the additional money we put in this year - and I think everyone will be pleased with this - because last year our numbers showed that 15 per cent more people stayed home and had their vacation here, as I said in the statement yesterday. We will be doing in-Province ads, which I think your Administration suggested also. I have always been strong on that, because many people take off on their trips, but there is so much we can do in our own backyard. That is one point.

The other thing you mentioned, up to this point before our development strategy - two points - we have to have the feds on side. We cannot do it ourselves and you know that. The good news on that is Canada tourism, and we are getting all kinds of indicators from them. I met with the heritage minister, the federal minister. Canada tourism is going to try to pick up because of what happened with SARS and, West Nile and so on. We need them to look at the culture, heritage and potential here and say, we are going to partner with you on your strategy, which they helped us build. That is one thing.

The point I will make about it is this, that over the years, yes, we have built trails, we have been there, we were all over the place, and that is fine to do. I have helped get funding, and I know all members have, for things in your own area, but we have that now and I think it is time to get a handle on it and look at the big picture. I think, with the development and with Canada coming on side with that, the federal government, it is time now to have a focused, planned development from here on in.

MS FOOTE: I want to go back again to the importance of the arts and our culture, and the preservation and support of it. I think we know that today our artists are known worldwide. We constantly see reviews of what our artists are doing in mainland papers and being talked about no matter where you go in the country and in the world. It was always my pleasure, wherever I traveled as a minister, to take along, as gifts when you go to those countries where you are expected to bring them, locally made products, preferably something made by our artists. They were always so well received, and it was always with great pride that you talked about the fact that it was made in Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MS FOOTE: I am just wondering, because I am not aware, having never been the Minister of Tourism and Culture, whether or not -

MR. SHELLEY: Wanted to be, probably.

MS FOOTE: Quieter than some of the ones I had, I expect..

Having said that, I was just wondering: Is there any kind of program available - and I did not see it in the Estimates or maybe I missed it - to support artists when they travel and have their shows, or to encourage them to have their shows outside the Province, to promote themselves and their products?

MR. SHELLEY: We will get to specifics and I will ask Brent to comment in a second.

I will tell you one thing, I strongly agree on that because I was with Mr. Hill at the only conference I went to this year, because for various reasons we could not get out of the Province, and he was talking about his sculptures and so on, and I was actually standing there when he was showing some of his sculptures and I saw the interest from people. That is what attracts you to the Province. I will say this to you, that I was in, I think it was Ottawa, back two or three years ago, and Conrad Furey, my next door neighbor who is a renowned artist, I grew up with him, you would see his stuff on the walls, everywhere you went, and they identified him with the Province. You are right, our artists are world renowned. This French Shore this summer - we are hearing talk now, that why they are coming here has a lot to do with our artists and culture and so on, and I think it bodes well for us.

Brent can give some specifics on the program.

MR. MEADE: In the Budget, there was announced $825,000. It shows up under Grants and Subsidies for Cultural Economic Development Program, which was to continue the work that was under CEDA. It was done last year, it was done again this year, and in that there is a touring and export component.

The other thing I should tell you is that we are now presently working with the Association of Cultural Industries, Industry Canada and ACOA, in developing an export strategy for the arts in Newfoundland and Labrador.

MS FOOTE: Excellent.

Back to the procurement program, because I, too, want to voice my concern with the fact that that was cancelled. While I accept your explanation, I think that it is an unfortunate decision, because I would have thought that the two could have taken place simultaneously. I know from experience in having talked with these budding artist, especially those coming out of Sir Wilfred Grenfell College, that they need all the encouragement and opportunity that they can access. Of course, they were always very excited about the opportunity to have a piece of their work accepted as being good enough to be part of the government's procurement program. I want to pass along my regret on that, and I think I mentioned that when I spoke in the House on one occasion, that it was really an unfortunate decision taken by the government.

You know I am from the Burin Peninsula, and Saint Pierre and Miquelon, the gateway to Europe.

While my preference always, of course, is to encourage tourists to stay in Newfoundland and Labrador, many of them do tend to go to Saint Pierre and Miquelon, and we need to take advantage of that. I think we have been doing that, but not to the extent that we can or should. I find that there is a real opportunity there that we are not capitalizing on. I mean, where else in the world do you find that you can visit North America and, at the same time, within half-an-hour, be in Europe? We have tourists - and again I speak from experience because I have a bed and breakfast down in Grand Bank, and, interestingly enough, about half of the tourists come there en route to Saint Pierre. So, you always encourage them to spend more time in Newfoundland and Labrador.

I think, there is an opportunity there, that I talked about when I was the Minister of Industry. I talked with my colleague at the time, Julie Bettney, that this whole idea of doing some packaging of visiting North America and Europe in the same deal, you know. Again, because of my relationship with Saint Pierre and Miquelon, the friendship there and the relationship that we have developed over the years, it never seems to be taken advantage of. I know that they were interested. I know that you were kind of dearth of staff when it came to having someone spend a lot of time on the Burin Peninsula. I think, in fact, the one person was shared with Bonavista and other areas. I know that you did not have a lot of support, and I know he did his best.

MR. SHELLEY: I will just make a comment on that. I have been there, and I know exactly what you are talking about. You are sort of leaving to go into the old world. I really enjoyed it there. I think it is something that we can add, because there is certainly nothing there now, as you know. There is no package there. I have had a couple of brief discussions on it, but I will tell you that I am certainly open to that. That is something we can add to that whole picture of our package you know. As you said, you come to Newfoundland and Labrador, but you can also enter Europe that way. I do not know what the officials know from the background and history being taught them, but I am certainly open to making a package or doing something to develop down there.

MR. JANES: Ms Foote, there is no question that that is an opportunity and it is one that has been long recognized as well. From a departmental prospective, what our Industry Development Officers - Norm Morris is the person who services that area.

MS FOOTE: And he does a good job.

MR. JANES: Yes, he does. He covers a lot of territory. What we do is we attempt to work with local companies, local tourism operators, and, of course, the Heritage Run Tourism Association, as well, has a great relationship with Saint Pierre and Miquelon. They together work things. They together do look at packaging, so there is some packaging going on, but the packaging primarily happens at the local operator level, operators in Saint Pierre and Miquelon and operators on the Burin Peninsula. When they do the Heritage Run marketing piece with their brochures and so on, you will see some of that. We, as a department, in no parts of the Province, really get directly into packaging. We encourage operators, we encourage regional tourism associations, to do packaging because packaging is clearly a positive way to go. We recognize the potential, as I said, with Saint Pierre and Miquelon. We do not do it ourselves anyway, as a matter of course. It is not what we focus on, but our staff will focus on facilitating that.

MS FOOTE: Vic, I hear you, but I think that is the problem, what you do as a matter of course. This is not an opportunity that you have in any other part of the Province. While I hear what you are saying is a matter of course, here is an opportunity. When you talk about the Heritage Run Tourism Association, they are volunteers and they really do not have the wherewithal, the financial resources, and the expertise. They do have some paid staff, do not get me wrong, and they are very good at what they do, but they really need support from your department, Minister, to really take this initiative and move with it. It is different, it is an opportunity that does not exist anywhere else in Newfoundland and Labrador.

I am going to ask you if you would really look at this. I do know that Saint Pierre and Miquelon are very interested. In fact, they have some of their brochure information in the chalet in Goobies and I think in Clarenville, so they are trying to, as well, work with us. In fact, they paid for a couple of the students, I think, that we had in the tourist chalet in Goobies a couple of times.

MR. JANES: It could well be, I am not sure.

MS FOOTE: Again, that relationship is there - you are right, absolutely right - with the Heritage Run, but I really would encourage you to look at this opportunity because it is there and I do believe it is a missed opportunity. I sincerely believe that if you do a package of a week, you are going to end up having your tourists, 90 per cent of that time, in Newfoundland and Labrador. It is just the reality of the situation, of the circumstances, and what there is to see and do in Saint Pierre.

MR. SHELLEY: I will just comment on it. I agree with you on the uniqueness, that there is nowhere else, and it is an opportunity because of its uniqueness.

I am scheduled, I think, because all meetings have been pushed off a bit, to meet with the Heritage Run very soon, and to get down in the area, to have it described to me. I think there is an opportunity here. I am going to keep open-minded to that and have a very good look at it and see if there are other ways, too, besides the actual package. For example, as we go forward developing our web sites and linkages and so on, there is a lot more information which can be tapped into that. We are really looking at that now, and that is going to help a lot of places, like you are talking about there, to get on that big picture.

MS FOOTE: Of course, you have the Francophonie celebrations this year. Francoise Enguehard, who is involved with that, is from Saint Pierre and Miquelon.

MR. SHELLEY: Aren't they doing a run? If I remember correctly, they are going to do a boat run over there. It is going to be exciting.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: This whole French thing, by the way, will put things on the map as far as what we have in the Province. It is going to be another opportunity. By the way, the good thing about the French celebrations, I believe, is that it is not just this year. We are getting messages, we just received one the other day, from the West Coast of France saying they want more involvement with this Province, not just for this summer but as they carry on, because Terra Neuve is very important to them in that country.

MS FOOTE: Of course, the other thing they were telling me on Saint Pierre and Miquelon is that they have tours that originate from Paris and they come to Saint Pierre and that is it.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MS FOOTE: They were offering to promote packages with us, in Paris, so that people who were flying into Saint Pierre would get the boat in Saint Pierre and come across to Newfoundland. Of course, we have the boat that tours Newfoundland as well.

MR. SHELLEY: I think there are lots of opportunities there.

MS FOOTE: Tremendous opportunities there for us if we want to take advantage of it.

MR. SHELLEY: I have my own personal interest in the French, being connected to the French. My ancestors are from France and we keep getting told all the time, that of all the Atlantic Provinces, when you talk in France, they are interested in the myth, the whole idea of the boats that came here, the French boats and so on. There is a community on the West Coast of France named after the boats coming to Newfoundland, named in their honor.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: I think we have to build on that opportunity of France and their connection here. If we do tap into your area, for instance, Saint Pierre and Miquelon should be a pivotal point of that..

MS FOOTE: And, of course, Placentia.

MR. SHELLEY: The whole thing.

MS FOOTE: I just have another subject that I want to touch on, and that is the Newfoundland and Labrador Summer Games. They are going to be held in Marystown, and we are all looking forward to that. We were glad that we were able to get them on the Burin Peninsula. What kind of support is your department providing for those games?

MR. SHELLEY: I will let the ADM comment on the specifics of it, but I will give you just a quick comment. It will not take long. I know, from playing sports down there - I was supposed to be down there this weekend, as a matter of fact, for provincial basketball, but we cannot go, right, Mr. Joyce? I have been down there many times on sporting events. I said when they came in, because I know them well, they would do a first class job, and I have no doubt that the games are going to be some of the best ever that we have seen in the Province.

MR. JANES: The Newfoundland and Labrador Games Program, as you are aware of, Ms Foote, is one that has been around for twenty-odd years, and within that program we provide direct assistance to hosting communities in the amount of $150,000. That money goes towards the operating costs of the games, all of those costs which they incur to actually stage the games. In addition to that, we take care of transporting all of the athletics to the site and that usually costs the department another $120,000. Of course, it is fairly high because of the cost of flying the athletics from Labrador. That is the biggest single portion of that cost. The Island athletics are transported by ground, bus usually. That is the basic contribution that we would make, and again that is against a formula, an established program. That is what it is.

Also, typically the community - and I think it is the case, as well, with the Burin Placentia games in Marystown - will receive support through Municipal and Provincial Affairs. In fact, they have made an application to MAPA, and with the support of our minister and Minister Byrne, funding has been made available to do some capital work. The notion here is that within our department and the Newfoundland and Labrador Games, we no longer contribute to the capital cost of the games, and that is known upfront by the communities that bid to host the games. However, we do work with - and, as I just alluded to in this case, it was successful with MAPA, in providing funding to help them do some of the capital pieces that are required to stage the games.

MR. SHELLEY: I think that it is coming into place really will, actually.

MS FOOTE: In conclusion, I guess, Minister, I would just like to encourage you to continue to support the Heritage Foundation of Newfoundland and Labrador. I had heard that, at one point, it was in danger of losing its funding, but I am so pleased to see that you have re-established that.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MS FOOTE: I guess it is $250,000?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MS FOOTE: It is a very important entity.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MS FOOTE: It does what we need to have done, and that is preserve our heritage and our culture. If you look at the work that it has done in the years that it has been in operation, I think it has been invaluable. I would encourage you to continue to support that.

MR. SHELLEY: I agree. Thank you.

MR. JOYCE: I have a few questions, and then I will just go through a few line items. As the minister mentioned, we should have been in Marystown on the weekend playing basketball. I have to say for the record -

MR. SHELLEY: I have a good reason for not going, I do not know what yours is.

MR. JOYCE: Some of my finest days were when the minister guarded me in basketball.

MS FOOTE: That was quite the challenge, I would expect.

MR. SHELLEY: I did not have to move very much.

MS FOOTE: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: I did not have to do a lot of running, put it that way.

MR. JOYCE: Back to The Rooms for one second, and I guess it is just a point of information more than anything. I know the competition for the building facilitator has closed. Do you know when that person will be hired?

MR. SHELLEY: I did not hear that.

MR. JOYCE: The building facilitator for The Rooms. I know the competition closed two or three weeks ago.

MR. NORRIS: Yes, you are right. The competition was held and it closed. It was held in abeyance for a couple of months until such time as we found out what the budget was. An offer, I believe, has been made to a candidate and I believe that individual has accepted. The building maintenance person will be probably in place by the end of the month and will oversee the mothballing of that facility.

MR. JOYCE: That is one of the concerns, that the art work cannot be moved in until the facilitator is hired there to get the building open. End of May; perfect.

Before I go to line items, for myself, out on the West Coast, the parks, the provincial parks -

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, that is not on there.

MR. JOYCE: No, no. I am not talking about the parks themselves, I am talking about tourism for the parks. Out in the Bay of Islands we have a provincial park. Is there any way to help promote the provincial parks, the smaller parks that are tucked away like, say, in the Bay of Islands, York Harbour or Lark Harbour? It is a well-used park, but a lot of times it is not as high profiled as some of the bigger parks. Once people get out there they love to stay because it is a great area. So, just promotion of tourism for the smaller parks.

MR. SHELLEY: I agree with that, by that way. First of all, parks is under Minister Osborne's department now, but as far as promoting, we still do the promoting. The good news is, as I just mentioned to you, we had an increase in parks' business last year and it looks like the trend is going to continue. People are getting back to that and getting into our parks. As we do this advertising, which should start in a couple or three weeks, the first in-Province TV ads, we are going to be promoting such a thing as Get Into The Parks. I think, that is going to help a lot of them.

MS FOOTE: Can I just ask a question? With the parks being under Environment and Conservation now, does that mean any funding they would be looking for they would have to go there, like putting in the dump stations?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

MS FOOTE: So, that is now through -

MR. SHELLEY: That is all under Conservation, yes. We are just into promotion and marketing.

OFFICIAL: Promotion is what actually (inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: That in-Province thing should help the parks, I would think. It is good for it too.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, I will just go through a few line items. Subhead 1.1.01, Salaries for the Minister's Office: How many people are -

MR. SHELLEY: I think I will let Gerry give the specifics on it, but it basically is the extra position and overtime.

MR. CROCKER: What was the question?

MR. JOYCE: The number of positions.

MR. CROCKER: (Inaudible) four positions.

MR. JOYCE: Four positions, okay.

Subhead 1.2.01.01: How many positions is that, as there is a bit of an increase there in Salaries?

MR. CROCKER: Yes, there is a small increase in the Salaries. That would just be for step increases annualization. The number of positions under the Executive Support would be, a Deputy Minister, two Assistant Deputy Ministers, a Director of Communications, a secretary to the Deputy Minister, and there are two secretaries to the ADMs also. That is a total of seven positions.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, have there been any layoffs in the department across the board?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes.

The number of positions is nine across the entire department. We are trying to minimize as much as possible. Actually, there were seven layoffs because two were already vacant. There are seven layoffs for the entire department.

MR. JOYCE: Have you got a breakdown of the areas?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, we have those. The breakdown is, two Clerk IVs, a word processing equipment operator, a Clerk II, the art procurement officer, one rec consultant, one policy analyst and another Clerk IV. I did not see that, so there are three Clerk IVs and a Trades Worker I. That is nine positions, but two were already vacant, so there are actually seven layoffs.

MR. JOYCE: Are you going to hire back the art procurement person?

MR. SHELLEY: The art procurement, as I told you, would go over to the Art Gallery. To get the specifics, I wonder could the Deputy explain that?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

The art procurement program was administered directly in the department. It has now been transferred over to The Rooms Corporation, and it is now falling under the Art Gallery director. He has a number of staff there who can administer this in terms of technicians. We saw there was an opportunity to realize some savings, therefore, we gave notice to the art procurement officer of layoff the day of the Budget.

MR. SHELLEY: Really, it is only six, if you look at it from that perspective. That will be done now through the Art Gallery, and the art procurement officer was not needed here because we would not have it anymore. Really, it is six layoffs throughout the department which is very minimal. Any one is too much, but for departments and comparisons and so on we have managed to keep it fairly minimal.

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 1.2.02, Transportation and Communications.

MR. NORRIS: I would like to speak to that.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay.

MR. NORRIS: It shows here that the budget for 2003-2004, Mr. Joyce, was $51,600. There was a substantial increase in revised for 2003-2004 to $107,000.

MR. JOYCE: I think we are talking about different -

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHELLEY: You said subhead 1.2.02, didn't you?

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 1.2.02, yes.

MR. NORRIS: I am sorry.

MR. JOYCE: What I was going to ask was about 1.2.02.03, Transportation and Communications, actually.

MR. CROCKER: What is the question?

MR. JOYCE: What is that money used for?

MR. NORRIS: That is the department allocation for postage, for phones and travel. While the travel portion relates strictly to the admin, the phones and the postage costs refer to the whole department.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, in subhead 3.1.01, Culture and Heritage.

MR. SHELLEY: Culture and Heritage, yes.

MR. JOYCE: Number 10.

MR. SHELLEY: Grants and Subsidies?

MR. JOYCE: Yes. Have you got a breakdown of what those grants and subsidies are?

MR. SHELLEY: I will let Brent be more specific about that, but that is the $825,000 for CEDP and $150,000 for French heritage, $250,000 for the Heritage Foundation, those type of things.

MR. JOYCE: Would they be able to send me a copy of -

MR. SHELLEY: Of the breakdown, sure.

MR. JOYCE: Just send me a copy to save time from going through it.

MR. SHELLEY: Those are programs that hopefully we hung onto to like (inaudible), and they can tell you how they are spent and so on.

MR. JOYCE: There is a bit of an increase there and I was just wondering where the increase came from.

MR. SHELLEY: I think the increase was on the CEDP, wasn't it?

MR. CROCKER: That includes the $825,000, and also restated from the previous year.

MR. SHELLEY: Do you want to clarify that, then?

MR. CROCKER: The variance there, there is an increase of $579,000 overall. That includes the $825,000 for CEDP, the $150,000 for French, and the $,250,000 for the heritage. There was a small reduction of $40,000 under cultural events and the rest will be a restatement of the CEDP that was budgeted last year under ITRD.

MR. JOYCE: If you could just forward that later, it would be great.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: During the election, and I just ask where it is, the Premier committed the extra money for advertisement for Tourism. What line item is that under there now?

MR. CROCKER: It is under 2.1.01, Tourism, 06, Purchased Services. That would be the marketing budget there.

MR. JOYCE: Purchased Services?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes. We contract the marketing, which is with the same firm that is being used.

MR. JOYCE: So, that is the extra million?

In Recreation and Sport, 4.01.01, 10, Grants and Subsidies.

MR. CROCKER: There is an increase there of $423,000. A portion of that relates to the game cycle and there is also new money there, $288,000, in connection with a new sports policy federal-provincial agreement.

MR. SHELLEY: I would like to make a comment on that, that you would be interested in, I know. We just signed this agreement. We have had it out publically but it was with the federal government, it was bilateral with the federal government. With my background, of course, as a Phys Ed Teacher, I am really pleased with this one. Of course, it was taken on by the previous administration, and we finally signed it off and so on, which we will partner in.

Basically, there are three prongs to that particular agreement. You hear so much about obesity and the problems with fitness and so on, long-term. Well, this one, I think, you will like. The three prongs: One is to help assist more of our provincial athletes go to national events, which is good, so there is additional money there.

Secondly, is to do a festival of sports, and that you might be interested in, in that a lot of the parts of the Province cannot do that. The Member for Grand Bank will understand this one, because you did the pilot for us. Basically, the smaller communities cannot host provincial games. This will allow smaller regions - Grand Bank did it, I think it was two years ago now. They piloted it and did a great job. They had thousands of athletes down there. This will assist in a number of ways to help host the festival of games in smaller, rural parts of Newfoundland and Labrador. That is the second prong of it.

The third prong is my favorite, personally, that for Grade 7 to 9 studies show that this is when they drop out of sports and get away from fitness and so on in school. Anything that you have to do with Grade 7 to 9 in your community, with hosting any type of sporting event, we have funding available in partnership with the federal government to allow you to go ahead with anything that would encourage Grade 7 to 9 to participate in any sport or any activity.

MR. JOYCE: Is it for tournaments, or it is just for -

MR. SHELLEY: Any kind of tournament, any type of events, sporting events where there is physical activities by Grade 7 to 9.

MR. JOYCE: Will there be applications for that?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, there is an application process. We are just finalizing that now as we speak, as a matter of fact. Maybe Vic can update us on it.

MR. JANES: Yes. This project, Mr. Joyce, is being done in conjunction with the School Sports Association formally referred to as the High School Sports Federation. The intention is to try to put in place activities which stress less competition and more participation. We all know that throughout the school system, whether it is junior high or high school, those children who are really serious about sports have an opportunity to compete in school games and so on. However, the intention is, as the minister said, is try to get at the other large portion of the school population who do not do anything, are not really into sports and do not want to be highly competitive. This is an effort, and it is being called a Festival of Sport, and it will be a planned program with applications driven through the School Sports Association to involve as many children as possible in forms of physical activities, through sport, as I said, with less emphasis on competition and more emphasis on participation.

MR. SHELLEY: I really pushed this one as soon as I saw it becoming available, because I coached school teams and I know you have, and when you get the thirteenth and fourteenth and fifteenth athletic who does not make the team every year, the basketball team, this gives an opportunity - if you want to bring you're a, b, c and d team and break them all up and let everybody play, there is no limit. Basically, this lets everybody play. As you know, I have picked those teams and felt bad about that, that you could not take the other five that never made the team. Studies show that they give up, they get discouraged, they give up the activity and therefore there are obesity problems and so on at that age. This encourages them to take everybody on. Grand Bank did it and did a great job. I forget the number they had there, but they had a huge number participate down there in Grand Bank.

MR. JANES: I, too, do not know the number, Minister, but that program, the Grand Bank one, of course, was under the regional games concept and they had literally 1,000 kids come from smaller communities who do not normally get to go up and compete at provincial games and so on, but they did come together. It is the kind of games, in that case, that can be done very efficiently because the boys and girls do not come and stay overnight, so the whole accommodation piece is not a part of that. It is a program that involves a lot of people at low cost. Now, of course, with the funding through the sport bilateral with Sport Canada, we are able to actually support more of that happening in regions throughout the Province.

MR. JOYCE: Just to clue up, I say to the minister.

MR. SHELLEY: I was going to say, we can get you the details on that, the program and application process.

MR. JOYCE: I will send it out to the schools in the Bay of Islands area.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, through the federation.

MR. JOYCE: Not only did I drop people, but I know what it felt like to be dropped in Grade 7, 8 and 9.

MR. SHELLEY: I can understand why you were dropped.

MR. JOYCE: They used to call me the donkey, because I used to get the flick all the time.

MS FOOTE: And you are still getting dropped.

MR. SHELLEY: In all kinds of ways.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, thanks for your forthright answers today. I know a lot of people, especially in the cultural community, will be pleased that there will be a date set. Soon they will be in The Rooms and a lot of the major artworks will be properly stored and maintained.

To the staff who I have dealt with over the years across the Province, there has been excellent co-operation with the staff and myself, I know, and with a lot of the groups, as well. I know Mr. Janes quite well, over the years going on different events, and I can assure you that Newfoundland and Labrador is well represented when they get off the Island. I know Mr. Janes is a major component and the rest of the staff in the department. Over in Western Newfoundland and throughout, the staff are excellent people to deal with. Their hearts and souls are into it.

Thank you for your forthright answers and thanks for your frank discussion. I thank the officials for their input. This is not confrontational, this is just sometimes the way we operate, so please do not take any of this personal, because it is not. It is just trying to get answers and this is way we operate sometimes. It is just part of getting the answers. From my personal point of view, thank you very much, as the opposition for Tourism. I thank you for your answers.

I have to say, Minister, of course, this is not usually done, but when it came to The Rooms issue, instead of making a big political issue, I am glad that we could sit down and work together with the arts community. It would have been great to beat the government over the head with a mallet on The Rooms issue but I do not think we would have gotten as much accomplished, and the thing was to get the goal accomplished. When myself and Mr. Harris came to you and asked you to meet with the group, you did quite willingly, and I thank you for that. I think now, because of co-operation with the arts community, yourself, myself and Mr. Harris, the results have been put forth and who is going to benefit is Newfoundland and Labrador. Finally, I can say, we can see that co-operation does work sometimes in politics. I thank the officials again.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Joyce.

Ms Foote.

MS FOOTE: I still have a couple of questions, and I am encouraged to heard about the Festival of Sport. I think that is a wonderful initiative, and I am glad it is going forward. Again, it is interesting when I talk about the relationship between Saint Pierre and Newfoundland and Labrador on the Burin Peninsula, in particular, when we hosted the Burin Peninsula Summer Games, Saint Pierre participated.

MR. SHELLEY: They came to that.

MS FOOTE: It was amazing. The feeling was just wonderful, and I would encourage more and more of that, because, again, the exposure to another culture meant so much to the young people who participated in those games.

MR. SHELLEY: Absolutely.

MS FOOTE: They went away raving about the experience and wanting more of it, because, of course, who are they going to compete with? Not Saint Pierre and Miquelon.

MR. SHELLEY: There is a uniqueness there.

MS FOOTE: It is an opportunity for them as well.

I was just wondering, when you look at 4.1.01, Recreation - Operations, 10, Grants and Subsidies, and you elaborated on what was included in that, I am curious as to whether or not there is any money available for community playgrounds. There used to be and I know that communities in my district availed of that. Is there any funding there for that now?

MR. SHELLEY: I will make this comment - and Vic can be more specific - basically, there are some small grants, as you know, and we are hoping to continue with that. Each member will get a $2,000 grant. That type of thing can be used in that particular - are you talking about capital for playgrounds?

MS FOOTE: This was in addition to that. There was always some money you could avail of for community playgrounds.

MR. SHELLEY: Vic, maybe you can answer that.

MR. JANES: Yes. Within our municipal capital program we have two components. One component, that you just alluded to, is where each one of the electoral districts is allocated $2,000, and the MHA disburses according to the need and so on within the region. Also, there is a portion of money left that is used, and it is application driven. When a community does have a need they come forward. Very often it can be things like playground development. Quite often it ends up to be something where a component gives out in a major facility in a community, i.e., a chiller goes in an arena and they cannot make ice any longer, or there is a bad roof leak in a recreation centre. There is not a lot of money. The total program is $227,000 for both components, so by the time you back one component there is really only $120,000 left that can go on the application driven side of that equation.

MS FOOTE: When will we hear about the $2,000 grants for each district, because normally we would hear about that in January.

MR. SHELLEY: We will hear about that very soon. We are just trying to finalize that, with everything sort of backed up because of the situation with the strike and so on, but we will know about that soon. As Vic said, most of that goes to those types of things he mentioned. There are small amounts there, you know, $500 to $2,000, that type of thing, if there is anything left for such things as playgrounds, through an application process.

MS FOOTE: Okay.

Under Culture and Heritage, 3.1.05, I have to ask about the funding for the Newfoundland and Labrador Film Development Corporation. Obviously, there is no federal revenue this year, which of course means that the Film Development Corporation will get a grant of $180,000 only, I am assuming, based on what I am seeing here. What impact is that going to have on the Film Development Corporation?

MR. SHELLEY: That is our portion, the $180,000, but what I understand is the feds are going to complement that and we will end up back at the same amount.

MS FOOTE: So, they are going to come back? I notice there are no federal revenues. They are going to come back with another $385,000?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes. They have not made the commitment by the time that the Estimates where done, but we understand that this will be the same..

MS FOOTE: Good..

I guess, in closing - I am looking at your budget for 2003-2004, the initial budget of $562,000 and revised $606,000, and still your estimate for 2004-2005 is $567,000. I am just curious. You say you longer have responsibility for parks and the art procurement program is not up and running this year. Where are the savings? Where do we realize the savings as a result of those two initiatives on longer being part of the department?

MR. SHELLEY: Are you talking about the overall amount, now?

MS FOOTE: Yes, the overall amount. I would have thought I would have seen greater savings there.

MR. CROCKER: Do you mean because the parks and the wildlife is not included anymore in Tourism?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. CROCKER: Well, the budget would have been restated in the other department, Environment and Conservation, so you would not see our - a restated original budget is what appears in the Estimates. So, you would not have -

MS FOOTE: Oh, without it.

MR. CROCKER: Right. Exactly.

MS FOOTE: Oh, I am sorry. Okay.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate your frankness and the depth with which you answered the questions. It is really a good opportunity for us to get these answers because, of course, we are asked questions all the time and it makes it a lot easier for us when we have the complete knowledge, or as much knowledge as we can gain, from an opportunity like this.

So, thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Foote.

Before I call a vote on subheads, I am just wondering if anyone else would have any questions or comments for the minister or his officials?

MS JOHNSON: Just a quick comment. Being from a rural district, certainly we depend on small business which is interrelated to tourism and so on, so I am certainly appreciative of the budget, the assistance there. Also, one final thing I have to say, you know the people of this Province will certainly benefit, because I do not think there is a better fit for this department than the minister who is there.

MR. SHELLEY: I thank the member, but I want to say, just in concluding, the fact of the matter is this is a positive department and I have a great staff, as other ministers who have been there know, especially my predecessor who did a good job. You know, this is something that everybody in the Province knows is growing and this could be positive. I wish my Opposition - I will not call him what he does not want to be called - member was here. I have known him a long time, and I have dealt with it as an Opposition member, being constructive. With something as sensitive as The Rooms and so on, I appreciate that a lot of times in Question Period, especially, things can get muddled. You used this opportunity here to ask those questions and we will communicate and move forward. My attitude about the whole situation, and not just The Rooms but anything that appears to be negative - it is a delay and it is something that we have to move forward with. I think, if we involve everybody in that process - I still believe, and I will state here today, that a year delay, in a sort of roundabout way, may give us that advantage of involving more people in the process. Then, when we do open The Rooms, because it is for years after we open it - as one artist had said in one particular meeting: One year is a short time in the life of arts and culture.

I know it is a negative, but I say to the member now that he is back, the approach that he has taken I respect, because I had it for eleven years when I was there. I was constructive most times. I know it happens that we get off track sometimes in the sitting of the House of Assembly, but we move forward with what we are talking about because it is positive for everybody. I like involving people, and I think this is going to be a way of including more people in the arts and culture community in a say on this great icon that is going to become part of our tourism and be a foundation for us in years to come.

I appreciate all the questions today, and I have worked well, I have to say, with the member so far to date. Any time he has questions, he knows he can ask me and I will give him answers as straight as can be. We are going to see us move forward.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you too very much, Mr. Shelley.

Any further questions?

I ask the clerk now to call the subheads.

CLERK: 1.1.01 to 5.1.01 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall subheads 1.1.01 to 5.1.01 inclusive carry?

AN HON. MEMBER: Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 5.1.01 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total heads carry?

AN HON. MEMBER: Carried.

CHAIR: Carried.

CHAIR: Shall the estimates of the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation for the fiscal year 2004-2005 carry, without amendments?

AN HON. MEMBER: Carried.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, total heads carried.

At this time, as the Chair, I would like to thank the minister and his officials for a fine job this morning. It is certainly obvious that the minister is very appreciative and understanding of the department that he heads up, and I think that came through and the people on the committee certainly recognized that. I would also like to thank our staff here this morning here again, the researcher with the Opposition, and also the members on our committee.

Before we adjourn, we have the minutes of the meeting that was held last night of the Resource Committee, so I would like to ask for a motion now to adopt these minutes.

MR. JOYCE: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Joyce. Seconded by Mr. O'Brien, that the minutes of Wednesday evening, May 12, be adopted as circulated.

All those in favour, ‘aye'

AN HON. MEMBER: Aye.

CHAIR: All those against, ‘nay'.

Motion carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: The only other thing now is, the next meeting will be held this evening at seven o'clock here, and at that time we will debating the Estimates for the new Department of Business.

With that, I would like to ask for a motion to adjourn. Mr. O'Brien.

MR. O'BRIEN: So moved.

MR. O'BRIEN: This meeting is adjourned.

On motion, Committee adjourned.