The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Skinner): Order, please!

Okay, folks, if I could, I think we are ready. I will get the meeting started.

My name is Shawn Skinner. I will be Chairing this morning in place of Mr. Harry Harding, who is unavailable. It is the Resource Committee Estimates, and we will be doing the Department of Environment and Conservation.

I would like to ask that people introduce themselves first. I will start with the members. I will ask Mr. Reid if you would please introduce yourself.

MR. REID: Gerry Reid, Twillingate & Fogo District.

MR. BARRETT: Percy Barrett, Bellevue.

MR. HUNTER: Ray Hunter, Windsor-Springdale.

MS JOHNSON: Charlene Johnson, Trinity-Bay de Verde.

MR. YOUNG: Wally Young, St. Barbe, sitting in for Kevin O'Brien.

MR. JACKMAN: Clyde Jackman, Minister, Department of Environment and Conservation.

MS CAUL: Brenda Caul, Deputy Minister.

MR. CLEARY: Bas Cleary, Assistant Deputy Minister.

MR. WARREN: Bob Warren, Assistant Deputy Minister.

MS HART: Diane Hart, Director of Communications.

MR. TAYLOR: Allister Taylor, Assistant Deputy Minister.

MR. CROCKER: Gerry Crocker, Director of Finance and General Operations.

MR. MAHONEY: Shane Mahoney, Executive Director.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

We will start off by calling the first heading, which is 1.1.01. I will give the minister an opportunity for some opening remarks and then I will turn the floor over to the Committee for some questions.

Mr. Minister, the floor is yours.

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the department's Estimates for the fiscal year 2006-2007.

Since coming to this post over the last couple of weeks, to say it has been busy is a bit of an understatement. I have been briefed and briefed and briefed, being to a point now where more and more of the details regarding the department are starting to come clear.

The Department of Environment and Conservation is responsible for the protection and enhancement of the environment, the management of the Province's biodiversity, endangered species, wildlife, inland fish, water, and Crown land resources. The department is divided into four program areas: the Environment Division, which includes Pollution Prevention, Water Resources and Environmental Assessment. Mr. Cleary is the ADM responsible. In addition to the head office, we have offices in Corner Brook and Grand Falls-Windsor.

The Natural Heritage Division, which includes Parks, Protected Areas and Wildlife. Mr. Warren is the ADM responsible. The Parks Division is located in Deer Lake, and the Wildlife Division is located in Corner Brook with a satellite office in Labrador.

The Lands Division, which includes Crown Lands, Surveys, Mapping and Land Management. Mr. Taylor was recently appointed ADM to replace Mr. Bill Parrott, who has accepted a position with Cabinet Secretariat. Our Lands Division has satellite offices in Corner Brook, Gander, Clarenville and Labrador.

Sustainable Development and Strategic Science manages sustainable development issues and the Institute of Biodiversity and Environmental Science in Corner Brook. Mr. Mahoney is the Executive Director of this division.

In order to carry out this mandate, gross expenditures in the amount of $30,813,100 is being allocated for the fiscal 2006-2007 year as follows: Executive and Support, $4,733,900; Environmental Management and Control, $6,912,000; Lands, $5,817,000; and Wildlife, Parks and Natural Heritage, $13,350,200.

I am pleased to report that we have several new significant issues being funded this year. Probably most important is our insular Newfoundland caribou initiative. More than $1.9 million has been committed this year to proceed with a two year caribou monitoring program to manage the caribou herds. The initial year of the program will examine the South Coast herds. The Northern Peninsula herds will be studied next year.

Also this year, I am pleased to say that we will be commencing one year of a three year parks renewal strategy with $1 million allocated this fiscal year to add additional camp sites and construct comfort stations at Butter Pot Provincial Park and Squires Memorial Provincial Park, to construct a comfort station and dumping station at Pinware River Provincial Park and to build dumping stations at Frenchman's Cove Provincial Park and J.T. Cheeseman Provincial Park. Again this year we will spend $1 million to continue our ongoing efforts of cleaning up contaminated sites.

On the assumption that we will receive $1 million in federal funding, we have allocated $1.5 million for climate change initiatives. Funding is also being provided to move ahead on government's commitments relative to sustainable development, a natural areas systems plan, the waste management strategy, and a new pesticides regulation.

I appreciate the consideration that you will give our budget today, and my officials and I will do our best to answer your questions.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Reid, will you be starting?

MR. REID: Yes.

Thank you, Minister, and I thank your staff for coming today. I will not be keeping you long. I just want to take you through it line by line, just to see some of the discrepancies in what is budgeted this year and what was budgeted and revised last year, just so we can find out where this money has gone or will be going.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. REID: You just mentioned a couple of initiatives, and I guess they are under some of these headings.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, they are.

MR. REID: I will start with 1.2.03., Policy Development and Planning.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. REID: Last year you budgeted $329,000 for Salaries under the .01 heading there, and this year you are budgeting $596,000.

MR. JACKMAN: This is for the climate change initiative.

MR. REID: What would that be?

MR. JACKMAN: What we are looking at is, if you come down to the total, the amount being voted on, we are looking at, the federal government has committed $1 million - the previous federal government had committed $1 million - to this cause and therefore we will be - I already met with Minister Ambrose on two occasions regarding this, and if this initiative comes forward this is part of the budgeted staffing in that regard.

MR. REID: Yes, but what initiative is happening on the climate change?

MR. JACKMAN: We are looking at establishing a climate change central, and initiatives around just general climate change.

MR. REID: So, under Transportation and Communications, I guess, you are going to hire some people there, are you?

MR. JACKMAN: The overall thing, if the funding is realized then you are seeing some staffing, employee benefits and the entire works, then that would come through, being budgeted, should that money be realized.

MR. REID: Okay.

Under 06. there, under the same heading, you have gone from $6,000 budgeted last year to $400,000. What would you be purchasing?

MR. JACKMAN: The specifics of that, I would have to ask -

MR. REID: Minister, I understand that you are a new minister, and I had the same situation, so I have no problem in any of your officials answering the questions for expedience.

MS CAUL: In the minister's opening remarks, he spoke about $1.5 million being allocated for climate change. Last June, the Province issued its Climate Change Action Plan and last year we allocated $300,000 to the initiative. This year we are allocating $1.5 million on the assumption that we are going to get $1 million from federal funding. The Climate Change Action Plan is one of the significant issues that the Government of Canada are dealing with on a national and international basis and they are allocating money to the provinces, so we have allocated an extra $1.2 million. Last year, we spent $3 million on climate change. This year, if we get the federal funding, we will be spending $1.2 million. We will have to hire a couple of people to carry out the plan. As well, we will be providing grants and various activities. Once the money is identified we will determine as to exactly how we will spend the money, in consultation with the federal government.

In addition, in that category as well, we have $65,000 added to salaries for the Department of Fisheries Oceans Management Strategy. They have asked us to help them on that. We will have a new employee to look after that. Also, in that category there is $175,000 to carry out public consultation on our Sustainable Development Act. All of that is in that particular category there.

CHAIR: If I could just interrupt for a second, when somebody else is speaking, if you could just identify yourself so Hansard can know who is speaking. We would appreciate that.

MS CAUL: Sure.

MR. REID: Under 10. there, Grants and Subsidies, who is going to be able to avail of these grants and subsidies?

MR. JACKMAN: We will determine that, I guess, as it becomes available. I do not think there is anyone identified at this point.

MS CAUL: Anybody who has an initiative that is consistent with the Climate Change Action Plan initiatives. The Conservation Corps of Canada, they may come forward with a proposal. We may get proposals from the transportation industry. It depends. Anybody who comes forward with a fairly decent proposal and is consistent with the objectives of the Climate Change Action Plan, they would be considered for funding. A lot of this will be to top up the federal funding. They will apply under the federal program but it will require some federal funding as well as provincial funding, so we will be doing a lot of top-ups there.

MR. JACKMAN: This has been established, one such in Alberta, so the model has been kind of established; so, as funds come in, direction will be taken from that.

MR. REID: Administrative Support, 1.2.04., $1,111,000.

MR. JACKMAN: Just, if I could, for a second?

MR. REID: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Parrott was in the position that Mr. Taylor is in, and he was going to join us this morning. Sir, do you want to come in?

What was the number again?

MR. REID: Page 103, under1.2.04. There is $1,111,000 here, up from $407,000 last year. Is that for the dumping stations at the park that you talked about?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, it is. The La Manche comfort station is $380,000, and we have had some vehicle replacement there of $210,000.

MR. REID: Under Pollution Prevention -

MR. JACKMAN: Pollution Prevention.

MR. REID: It seems to be a good topic, after listening to the news this morning.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, it is. Certainly more disaster out in Placentia Bay.

MR. REID: Under Salaries, you are gone to$1.7 million from $1.2 million budgeted last year.

MR. JACKMAN: As you can see there, we have had some lower. Due to some vacancies savings we have had a number of those, but we are looking to salary increase and increased positions associated with certain things that will be happening. We are looking at filling two positions in pesticide regulation, and the industrial affluent regulations were three positions that have been vacant and we will be filling those, and the position of the implementation for the Waste Management Strategy.

MR. REID: Under Professional Services there, what do you buy in Professional Services under 05.? It is gone up $100,000 there from last year.

MR. JACKMAN: Number 05., we are looking at $100,000, like you say, higher. We are looking at implementation of the Waste Management Strategy, the $50,000 there, but that is going to be recoverable from the MMSB. We also have $50,000 that we have allocated to a company to develop a Waste Management Strategy. Like you say, it is certainly timely there. So, that is $50,000 there for a consultant.

MR. REID: Water Quality Agreement, 2.2.02.0l. Salaries have increased there, as well, by $100,000.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Do you want to speak to that one?

MS CAUL: Salary increases, forty-four seven.

MR. JACKMAN: Water Quality Agreement.

MS CAUL: Water Quality Agreement?

MR. REID: Page 105, Salaries.

MS CAUL: Page 105, I am sorry.

MR. JACKMAN: Oh, 105.

MR. REID: I am sorry about that. 2.2.02 is the heading.

MR. JACKMAN: 2.2.02. Salaries there?

MS CAUL: Yes.

MR. REID: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, we are looking at additional staff from the federal-provincial Water Quality Agreement. It is $50,000 that has been provided in federal funding this year. So, it is just the increasing of a staff member there.

MR. REID: Is that for people who go out and do tests on drinking water in various areas of the Province?

MR. CLEARY: This is an arrangement we have with Environment Canada. We staff the positions and collect the water samples, and Environment Canada provides all the testing and the equipment on a shared basis. So, this is our portion, our responsibility under that agreement for the staffing.

MR. REID: Okay. We will go to page 107, Land Management and Development. Salaries have increased there by $150,000 or so.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, we are putting additional staff there. We are looking at stepping up the collection efforts for overdue accounts. We have, approximately, 20,000 land leases there and there is potential accelerated cottage lot development. So, you know, staffing to administer that.

MR. REID: When you say you have 20,000, those are individuals who have their homes on Crown land leased? Does that still exist? It does, does it? Is that 20,000 people who you are governing under that?

MS CAUL: These are 20,000 people who owe us money as a result of those leases. Their leases are not current and they are in arrears. We need to collect.

MR. REID: That is a lot of people.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, a lot of money.

MR. REID: Professional Services here has gone from $70,000 budgeted to $170,000.

MR. JACKMAN: Again, the increase that we are looking for from the cottage lot development, and that is why we are anticipating that increase.

MR. REID: Yes, but what would you be purchasing or professional services? What comes under Professional Services? That sounds like a hired gun from outside the department when you read it, Professional Services. You are buying a service from a professional. I know it is not as simple as that, but what do you purchase under Professional Services?

MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Parrott?

MR. PARROTT: The Professional Services is to cover the cost of land surveyors, engineering firms who do geotechnical work for sub-service drainage, archeologists and professionals of that nature.

MR. REID: Okay. So you go outside the department for most of that, do you?

MR. PARROTT: Yes, that is contracted work.

MR. REID: Okay. Page 109, Parks and Natural Areas, under Salaries. It looks like you have hired some, or about to hire some more people.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, we are looking at three staff positions for the Natural Areas Systems Plan and we are also looking at two interpreters for Mistaken Point, that is the fossil reserve. Also, two more for Burnt Cape, that is the rare plant site. We are also putting in some park positions there. We are taking them from seasonal to full time. Also, out in Witless Bay, seasonal managers. We are looking at a two-week extension for the Nature's Classroom Program.

MR. REID: The Purchased Services in that, gone from $350,000 to a budget of $474,000.

MR. JACKMAN: We are looking at the rental of some vehicles to meet the needs of the parks.

MR. REID: That is it for me. I have some general questions but, Yvonne and Percy, you have some (inaudible)?

MR. BARRETT: On page 109, under Parks and Natural Areas -

CHAIR: Mr. Barrett is going to speak. I was just waiting for your light, Mr. Barrett.

MR. BARRETT: Okay. In Parks and Natural Areas, under related Revenue in 2005-2006, you indicated $2,500 for related revenue under federal, and -

MR. JACKMAN: Where are you right now?

MR. BARRETT: Page 109.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, okay.

MR. BARRETT: Parks and Natural Areas. You indicated $2,500 for related revenue from the federal and you had the same amount there this year but for some reason there seems to be a windfall, you have $676,800.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, that is money that came in for the Torngat.

MR. BARRETT: Pardon?

MR. JACKMAN: For the Torngat Reserve in Labrador.

MR. BARRETT: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: It is just federal monies that just came in from that.

MR. BARRETT: Okay, I think that covers the Estimates. You did all the line by line stuff, didn't you?

MR. REID: Do you have anything, Yvonne, on the line by line?

MS JONES: No, did you cover the wildlife (inaudible)?

MR. REID: No, the ones that I wanted to look at on page 109 I covered.

Can I ask some general questions? One of them, the Robin Hood Bay dump. A few years ago I know government was looking at incorporating that into a regional site out around Foxtrap somewhere. As a result, I think that they closed the incinerator in the Harbour Grace area. I guess since that time the people in Conception Bay North have had their garbage trucked to Robin Hood Bay. Now we hear that we are talking about giving that dump in Robin Hood Bay a new life of another thirty or forty years. Is that for strictly economic reasons?

MR. JACKMAN: No, the department has been into discussions with the City of St. John's on that. Right at this point, there has been two firms that have been called in as consultants to take a look at that. One has been hired by the City of St. John's, the other one is a pier consultant group hired by the department. We are looking at stuff like leachate, so on and so forth, there. The final decision has not been made on that yet. It is under consideration that this might become the regional landfill site.

MR. REID: When I say economic reasons, I am talking about from the point of view of the city probably having to pay less for garbage disposal than if we moved the site. Personally, I live in the East End and I am at a loss, actually, to understand why City Hall would want a dump located in, what I consider to be, the middle of the city. It is a prime real estate area all around there. Some of the most expensive houses in the Province are in that area and I am completely at a loss why the city would be pushing to keep that dump there for another thirty or forty years.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I mean, from the city's perspective, I cannot comment on that and I do not know if any of the department officials want to, but that is something that they will have to come to terms with. But from a department point of view, and my short time in there and getting into this, that if there is going to be a site there, it is going to have to fall within the regulations as established under site development. So, that is where it is, basically.

MR. REID: Yes, but I mean -

MR. JACKMAN: I do not know if the economics would, you know - I hope they would not make a decision based on pure economics.

MR. REID: Well, I do not know, unless they have some sentimental value attached to the dump in St. John's that I do not, and I am not from here. But, to me, it just does not make sense to have a dump in the East End of the city like that, especially when you look at all of that real estate that surrounds it up in those hills and things that, you know, are being left out. I think it is an economic thing, that they just do not want to pay to have their garbage trucked out to the Holyrood area where you could have a waste management facility for the entire - well, even right to Conception Bay North. We hear people talking about they are not worried about leeching into the ocean and it is not going to be a problem. I mean, come on.

MR. JACKMAN: But it is, that is a definite concern. The consultants who are involved in it, you know, if the leeching into the ocean is going to be an issue, then it just cannot be. I guess if you look at under the strategy, it is going to have to meet the guidelines and it is going to have to meet the environmental demands.

MR. REID: Minister, I hope you do not relax the guidelines simply because the City of St. John's is pushing for it, because I think that is probably the biggest environmental mess we have in the Province down there and it is continuous. I mean, I am half afraid to go down there. I have to go every now and then when my basement gets full, and I have to do it over the Easter holidays -

MR. JACKMAN: What is the biggest threat down there?

MR. REID: Rats and gulls. I try to hold my breath when I get near the place.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I haven't been to a lot of landfill sites but I was to one in Prince Edward Island just a little over seven or eight months ago and the first thing that I noticed when I went in there, there were no gulls. If you look at waste management provincially, I think we are quite a ways behind where we need to be. So, the Robin Hood site will have to meet the standard as established by this department, and that is where it stands.

MR. REID: Yes, I think we are falling way behind the rest of the country. It is my understanding that there is an incinerator probably in downtown - not Halifax, but where you get off the ferry there. What is the name of that?

MR. JACKMAN: Cape Breton?

MR. REID: In Sydney, I think. Right in downtown Sydney there is an incinerator. Nobody even knows it is there, apparently. It so clean and stuff.

The other thing is, if government has told the people in Conception Bay North that they are going to have to take their garbage to Robin Hood Bay temporarily until they get a site established somewhere closer, a regional site somewhere closer, what is going to happen to them? Obviously, if this Robin Hood Bay stays open it is going to cost the residents of Conception Bay North more money to continue trucking it to St. John's rather than to Avondale, or wherever they were going to put it originally.

MR. JACKMAN: I think, provincially, we are going to have to come to a realization that if we are going to step up here and have a waste management strategy that is going to be much improved, provincially we are going to have to see some increases.

MR. REID: Yes, and I would not even mind the government throwing in some money to help with the plan, or to even help cost share the expenses because it is a mess and it is getting worse.

The other thing is on the tire recycling, is that going anywhere or are we just going to continue to pile tires around the Province?

MR. JACKMAN: No, we will have a statement - I will not say within a week, but we will have a statement on that very shortly. That is about where it is. The tires are being stored safely, but there is no doubt about it, we need to get ahead with that strategy. I will not say a week, but very shortly you will have a response on that.

MR. REID: I have one more, Yvonne, if you do not mind.

Recently I have been questioning what is happening with Harbour Breton, FPI and the fish plant. There seems to be some dispute as to why FPI has not passed the plant over to the Barry Group of Companies and a concern is an environmental problem in that area.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. REID: It is my understanding, or I get that feeling or sense in talking to, or listening to your colleagues, that they are going to relax the environmental regulations or concerns to allow that plant to transfer to the hands of Barry a bit more easier than if we had to really go in and clean up the environmental mess that is around it. Do you know anything about that?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, Phase I of that environmental assessment has been completed. Phase II is, as far as I know, near completion, but we will not be relaxing the guidelines. The guidelines are there and we have to fall and operate within those guidelines.

MR. REID: I am glad to hear that, because in the past we have had plant owners who appear rather magnanimous because they are passing over an idle plant to a community for $1, only to find out later - and it happened in Ramea - that half the plant fell into the harbour. Luckily, I guess for all of us, the freezing capacity and the Freon did not go with it at that time. It is something that always concerned me, when people are taking over those facilities for $1 and the previous owner is getting a pat on the back for being a great citizen.

MR. JACKMAN: Passing over an environmental hazard.

MR. REID: Exactly.

Anyway, I am finished. Yvonne, if you want to go.

CHAIR: Ms Jones.

MS JONES: Thank you.

I just have a few questions, and probably I will pick up on the tire recycling program. You guys had a proposal originally from Kruger, I believe it was, Corner Brook Pulp and Paper.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MS JONES: I understand that proposal was later taken off the table. What other proposals did you receive at that time?

MR. JACKMAN: It was down to two. There was a second private group that put forward, and I do not know if it would be appropriate for me to name the group because the process that they are looking to develop is - and maybe it is for public knowledge but if one of my officials want to speak to it they can - but that has fallen through. Therefore, government will have to move ahead with its own plan.

MS JONES: So, there were two other proposals?

MR. JACKMAN: No, there were two.

MS JONES: Two all together.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MS JONES: So what you are telling me is neither of those were acceptable -

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MS JONES: - and you guys are looking at your own plan?

MR. JACKMAN: I do not know whether acceptable would be the right word, it is just that they could not meet the time commitment that was - this is something that if someone is investigating a new concept, it is not something that we can afford to extent for too much of a longer period. I mean our stockpile is growing, therefore we need to do something, and as a department that is where we are.

MS JONES: Where are tires being stockpiled right now?

MR. JACKMAN: Stephenville, Bull Arm and Placentia.

MS JONES: Okay.

MS JACKMAN: There are 456,000 in Placentia - I will not give you the exact numbers, but just a little over a million tires.

MS JONES: In storage. Do you think that this is going to get dealt with before the summer? That is a lot of tires to have stored and stockpiled in summer months. Are they outside, inside?

MR. JACKMAN: I do not know if there are a million tires inside, but they are stockpiled. We do not have that big of a building. But, yes, we do -

MS JONES: I think they are on the runways in Stephenville.

MR. JACKMAN: We do hope that, yes, it will be dealt with before the summer, or the initial process to start dealing with them.

MS JONES: Yes, because I would think it is going to become a fire hazard -

MR. JACKMAN: It certainly is.

MS JONES: - when we are into June, July and August month.

MR. JACKMAN: We have seen what can happen with some of those incidents in other parts where we have had these major fires burning for months and months. We do not want that to happen, so we will be moving with that. Like I said, I will not give you a week as a time frame but it will be dealt with very shortly.

MS JONES: Okay. I want to get back to the water quality testing for a little while. How many boil orders are in place in the Province right now?

MR. JACKMAN: Right now, boil orders - what was it? I had it right here, 147.

MS JONES: Are any of those indications of E. coli in water in communities around the Province?

MR. JACKMAN: These boil orders are really taken as precautionary measures, and that is it. Not that I am aware of, that there is any presence of E. coli, no.

MS JONES: None?

MR. JACKMAN: No. It is certainly something I would be aware of.

MS JONES: I know in my district, in particular, they had a system set up where they were having the water tested through the hospitals in St. Anthony. It was being done in the lab there. Back some months ago the department, I think, was considering changing that. Now I got some letters on it - I guess it was last fall - from the communities that I made representation to the department, but I do not know if anything changed on it, if it stayed the same because I did not get any feedback after that.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay. I will ask Mr. Cleary -

MR. CLEARY: I am not familiar with that particular issue but if you want me to follow up, I can find some information on that.

MS JONES: Yes, I would appreciate if you would do that.

MR. JACKMAN: Where did you say it was?

MS JONES: What they were doing, because prior to the hospitals doing the testing, water samples were being flown out to, I think St. John's, and testing was being done here. Then what they did was, they set up a system through the hospital in St. Anthony which allowed all the municipalities on the Northern Peninsula and in the Southern Labrador region to have their water samples tested right at the hospital. It was brought to my attention, by one of the doctors at the hospital first, that the program was going to be cut. They felt they were offering a good service and it was a good system. Then after that I received letters from three or four municipalities regarding the same issue. I do not know, I honestly cannot tell you what the outcome was because I do not know. I am guessing that it must have stayed the same because I did not get any further correspondence from the people who were being impacted, but I would like to know the answer if you could find out for me.

Of course, the other benefit in having the testing done there is - because I think, Bas, water testing has to be done within a certain period of time for certain parasites or whatever?

MR. CLEARY: Well, it does. There is a timing issue when it comes to water testing, yes.

MS JONES: I think the problem they were having, especially on the Coast of Labrador, was oftentimes before the flights - they could meet the proper flights and get the water samples out to St. John's. It was a problem. By using the hospital, they were using the medical transportation system as well. They were getting them out immediately and right to their lab.

Can you tell me what is happening with the Mealy Mountain Park right now? I know the Steering Committee is meeting on a regular basis. I have never -

MR. JACKMAN: I will get Mr. Warren to answer that.

MR. WARREN: Actually, I am a member of the Mealy Mountain Park Steering Committee representing the natural heritage branch. We just completed two weeks of public meetings on the status of the park. One of the biggest issues, I suppose concerning the Province, is the issue of traditional uses within the area. Typically, within a national park, the federal government wishes to sunset - or traditional uses. However, we have taken note of the public interest to continue traditional uses in the area. I think that will be one of the major features of a national park.

Time wise, we are probably looking at another year before we are in a position to make recommendations on the boundaries for a national park.

MS JONES: Okay. Now, I have been hearing that there are some mineral finds within the proposed boundary areas. Is that being dealt with through your Steering Committee at all?

MR. WARREN: All third-party interests, including mineral interests, will have to be taken into account and the decision will have to be made regarding whether or not to exclude these areas from the park or compensating owners of those mineral interests. That is something which is being looked at, yes.

MS JONES: Will the Committee hold public consultations again, or is all the public consultation piece completed? I know you did some consultations about a year ago, maybe two years ago.

MR. WARREN: Yes, we just completed a second phase of public consultations. There is actually an office located in Happy Valley-Goose Bay which is open to the public at all times. I would think before this government decides on the boundaries of the national park there will be further consultations with the public, yes.

MS JONES: Okay. Can you tell me if there is anything moving with the Torngat Park reserve area at all?

MR. WARREN: The Torngat Park was formally established last December and the land has been transferred to the federal government. So it is now a national park reserve.

MS JONES: Are the boundaries now set for that?

MR. WARREN: Yes, the boundaries are established.

MS JONES: I guess it is a little simpler piece to do, is it?

MR. WARREN: No. It took many years of negotiations, actually, because there were some very high-valued mineral deposits within the area and there was a variety of different activities going on in terms of mineral exploration. The boundaries have now been established. The land has been formally transferred and it is now officially a national park.

MS JONES: Okay. Minister, while I am on the parks, is it the intention of the Province to designate any other provincial parks or provincial park sites?

MR. JACKMAN: At this point, there are no other -

MR. WARREN: Yes, we are looking at the Main River as a waterway park, which will be the first of its kind in the Province. It is currently a Canadian heritage river, one of two in the Province. We are hoping to have a decision on that this year. In terms of conventional campsite parks, no, we are not planning anymore campsite parks.

MS JONES: Where is Main River located?

MR. WARREN: Sop's Arm, Pollards Point, White Bay.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MS JONES: There is a Main River up my way, too. That is why I am asking. Not as main, was it?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MS JONES: Okay. There are a couple of issues I want to raise on waste management. The MMSB, how much money do they manage now on an annual basis? What is their budget?

MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Scott is not here. Do you want me to get you those figures?

MS JONES: Yes. Who is not here?

MR. JACKMAN: Mr. John Scott from the MMSB, but I can get you those numbers.

MS JONES: Yes. Is there any particular reason why there is no one here from the MMSB?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MS CAUL: There is no budgetary funds in our budget of the Department of Environment and Conservation to support the MMSB. They are self-supporting, so they are not really part of our budget.

MS JONES: But don't they fall under your department?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, but one of the things that I noticed when I came into the department, I felt that I could, kind of, move in there, impose but I was quickly reminded that they are an arm's length group. Therefore, the final decisions come under my office. So if you want numbers and things from Mr. Scott, I can certainly get them for you.

MS JONES: Yes, I would like to know what their annual budget is and I would also like to know what their budget breakdown is, how much money they are allocating every year in grants and subsidies, and a list of where those are going; along with the salaries, the number of positions and the salaries that are attached to that board.

I guess my question for you is: Are they answerable to your department or to government, in anyway, and what accountability measures are in place for that particular organization?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, they are answerable. Still, though, they operate as an arm's length group.

MS CAUL: The board reports in to the minister, and Cabinet determines who sits on that board. So, while they are an independent Crown corporation, they are considered to be a government organization as well, but they are not funded. They are self-financed because of the beverage container program.

MS JONES: Yes, which is a tax imposed by government, of course.

MS CAUL: Well, it is a recycling initiative. It is quite common.

MS JONES: Now, the CEO of that corporation would be appointed by the Cabinet, I understand, right?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MS JONES: Okay. Therefore, Cabinet has the authority to hire and fire anyone with the MMSB. For example - I will just do a comparison - if there is a CEO of a school board in the Province who has misappropriation of funds, fires teachers for speaking out on issues that concern their work, the government has absolutely no autonomy or authority to deal with that individual. I am just trying to clarify if the same exists with the MMSB or if the accountability measures are different altogether. So, you are telling me that they are appointed by Cabinet -

MS CAUL: The board is, the boards themselves, as well as the CEO of the board, or the CEO of the MMSB, but the individual employees are hired by the board and are employees of the board.

MS JONES: Yes, but the CEO of the board is accountable to government.

MS CAUL: Yes, he is.

MS JONES: And, if there is a problem in that board - for example, I understand they are managing, of course, millions of dollars of taxpayers' money - if there is a misappropriation of funds then it is the responsibility of the Cabinet to deal with the head of the corporation and the board on issues like that.

MR. JACKMAN: As well, we will be meeting with the head of the board often with updates and so on and so forth but, yes, you are right; ultimately, it comes back to government.

MS JONES: I have not seen any money from the MMSB spent in my district. I am just one member with seventeen communities, but I have not seen any money from this program invested in my community for the last two to three years.

MR. JACKMAN: But there has been; because, just the transport of tires, if you have them in your area, from your area to -

MS JONES: I suppose. I do not know, really, what they are doing with tires.

MR. JACKMAN: The thing is -

MS JONES: The last call I got was that a fellow had them at his garage and he was dumping them all out in the middle of the highway, so someone went and got them. That is the last story I know on tires.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

There is a policy regarding pickup, and the number that someone can have in storage, and that they can contact the MMSB who will have them picked up. They will tell you very quickly that the most expensive cost that they are incurring right now with tires, as an example, is the transport of them from one site to the other.

MS JONES: Maybe the program does pay to transport tires out of my district, because I have no idea where they go. Like I said, the only call I had recently, and that was about a year-and-a-half ago, a garage in my district had so many tires they did not know what to do with them. They called me one day and said they were going to dump them all in the middle of the highway and block the highway off, and started to do that. I just called the Works and Services people and they sent their people in and took them and stockpiled them at the airport. Maybe the $3 we pay on a tire is going back to do some of that work.

I have not seen any money. You can certainly get a copy and give me a list of investments that have been made from that program in my district in the last few years, but I have a situation right now where there have been two studies completed for the last three to four years on waste management projects in that area. One was in the Labrador Straits, which would have one regional waste management site. The study was very in-depth in terms of what environmental cleanups had to be done, what preparation work had to be done for a new site, all of the costs that would be attached to it. The locations were looked at for everything from drainage to soil to whatever the things are they look at. That was completed and nothing else was ever done with it.

The other one was in the coastal region of my district, which would have included the area from Lodge Bay up to Charlottetown-Pinsent's Arm area, where we would have seen six waste management sites closed down, cleaned up, and have one site for the region. Again, all the same work was done. The consulting engineer prepared an in-depth document, looked at site location, all that kind of stuff, and I have never seen a cent of money invested to do anything with it. In fact, I do not even know if anyone has ever sat down and met with the communities involved after the studies were completed, and that has been almost three years ago.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

Well, right now there is a Cabinet paper in circulation as to how to address particular sites and areas. I think the feeling is that the initial plan that was set out may have been a little bit -

MS JONES: I am sorry, I cannot hear you, Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: There is a Cabinet paper that is in circulation right now to address the entire waste management situation, and our aim is to certainly decrease the number of sites. I think there is something like 250 or 240 sites in the Province. I cannot speak specifically to your particular area, but there are other areas in the Province that are doing the exact same thing, taking a look at it. I think now -

MS JONES: You have to get money to do it.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. JACKMAN: I think what -

MS JONES: You did.

MR. JACKMAN: When you two stop fighting over there....

Right now we have communities that are taking the lead on moving some of this forward and, with new funds that are coming from the gas tax and moving into infrastructure type of work, I think more areas are looking at this as a possibility now that we can move ahead with some of this.

MS JONES: So, you cannot tell me if those two sites in my district are being considered right now to have that addressed or not?

MR. JACKMAN: We can certainly give you that information. I do not know if there is anybody can speak to that as of this point, but we can check on that for you.

MS JONES: No, that is fine, you can get me the information, just so that I know what the situation is there, but it has been some time and -

MR. JACKMAN: So, you are saying they have carried out some consultant work?

MS JONES: Oh, there was, like - I think one of the studies cost $60,000. Does that sound right? I think it was that much money that was invested to do some of the work that was done, and both of them cost - I think the other one was probably about $30,000 or something. All of that stuff has been done. To my knowledge, they went through every step that had to be gone through but the problems still exist.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MS JONES: They have not received any money to deal with the plan that they submitted and was in progress.

I am soon going to turn it back to my colleague, but I had a question regarding the Holyrood generating plant. I guess a recent study that was released in the country in terms of where they looked at polluters in Canada, this was, no doubt, one of the most serious polluters in our country, pollution sources in our country. I am wondering what work the Department of Environment has done around this particular plant. I do not know if it is something that you guys have been involved in at all. I know that after the report was released - I am trying to think who did that report, who was the author of it, and I am sorry I cannot remember. I do not know if it was Environment Canada or not. Soon after that was done, government did announce that they would change the fuel source that they were burning at the Holyrood generating plant. I am just wondering what work you guys have been involved in as it relates to that plant from an environmental perspective, if government is still moving towards the alternative fuel source that they were looking at. I will just hear your response to those questions first.

MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Cleary?

MR. CLEARY: Hydro hired an environmental company called Cantox Environmental to do an assessment on air quality in health issues. The government engaged Health Canada to do an independent review and a second assessment of that particular study. Generally, it found that the (inaudible) air quality did not pose any significant health concerns from the study. Hydro is looking at reducing its sulphur content in its fuel, which will decrease the sulphur dioxin emissions by about 50 per cent and reduce the particular components of their emissions by about 40 per cent.

MS JONES: Reduce the sulphur dioxide emissions by how much?

MR. CLEARY: About 50 per cent is their estimate, by using a lower sulphur fuel.

MS JONES: Cantox Environmental, that is a private company?

MR. CLEARY: Yes.

MS JONES: Who did you say hired them?

MR. CLEARY: Newfoundland Hydro.

MS JONES: That was a while ago, though, wasn't it?

MR. CLEARY: In 1999.

MS JONES: So that would have been the last study that Hydro would have done into it.

MR. CLEARY: That is as far as I am aware of.

MS JONES: Okay.

The study that I am referring to, that was released in the last year, that was done by the Government of Canada, you are saying.

MR. CLEARY: Health Canada did the Peer Review. That report was just completed in September, 2005, the Health Canada Peer Review.

MS JONES: I know a lot of people who live in the proximity of the Holyrood generating plant, and I also know that the people in that area have had multiple health problems. In fact, I would not want to get into quoting directly the individual names, but there have been a number of cases, both in children and in adults, where they have been heart conditions and cancer. I think you will also find that there is an extreme number of cases of individuals who have diabetes in that particular vicinity.

I have met with them on a number of occasions, especially in the last year or so, because, since this report was released, I think it was even more upsetting to them because they obviously feel that their health is jeopardized by the emissions from this plant. I do not know if it is - it is an environmental issue, I guess, inasmuch as it affects the individuals who are there. I guess I am trying to get at if the department has ever been involved in any kind of a review, study, anything at all, as it relates to that particular project other than what Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro would be doing themselves.

MR. CLEARY: I am not aware of any other studies engaged by our department, other than the one that I just cited, but I can certainly look into that. The department is well aware, and so is Newfoundland Hydro, of the emissions that come from that plant.

We have been engaged in the past in terms of doing some studies. They are regulated by our department in terms of air emissions, and I think Hydro themselves have expressed concerns about the plant and will, I guess, in the long term, deal with the air emissions which have been a public issue for some time.

MS JONES: I actually saw paint peeling off people's cars, who live directly across from the generating plant. I have seen the paint peel off their houses. I have seen nothing only black covering their windows. Yet, the Cantox report indicated that while this toxic substance could peel paint off your car it did not hurt your health. I find that really hard to believe. I guess the thing is, when you get a corporation like Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro that actually owns and operates this generating station, you really have to question some of the findings that could end up in a report even if it is being done by another company. That was one of the things that always concerned me. I do not know if there is a way that the emissions that are being released could be tested in terms of what the health implications are on people who would be breathing it, living in it on a day-to-day basis. I do not know if that is something that you guys could look at or recommend to the Department of Health to look at.

MR. CLEARY: Okay.

We will take your -

MS JONES: Does that mean yes, you are going to do that?

MR. CLEARY: I will certainly discuss this back at our office and see what engagement we have had with Health and Community Services over the years on this matter, but they certainly would be involved in such a study.

MR. JACKMAN: I will bring it up with the Minister of Health as well.

MS JONES: Yes.

I don't have any other questions, Mr. Chairman, but I want to thank the minister and his officials this morning for the information and the answers they gave us. I appreciate that.

CHAIR: Do any other Committee members have any questions?

MR. BARRETT: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: Mr. Barrett.

MR. BARRETT: I guess I would like to ask the minister, now that we do not have the Member for St. John's North as an Opposition member travelling around the Province inspecting - St. John's South, I am sorry; I said St. John's North. Who do we have now inspecting the dumps in the Province?

MR. JACKMAN: Who do we have inspecting the dumps in the Province? A good question, and I do not have the answer for you.

MR. CLEARY: Basically, the landfill sites are the responsibility of the municipalities. They would incur that responsibility in terms of inspections and maintenance of their own dump sites.

MR. BARRETT: In other words, the landfill sites in the Province, like I said, now that we no longer have the Member for St. John's South going around the Province and looking at all of the dumps - he was the former minister, but he has gone on to the Department of Health now - I do not think he has time for inspections. So, there are no inspections carried out by the Department of Environment.

MR. CLEARY: Well, Government Services Centre is also a department that has enforcement capabilities and act on our behalf. So, they have inspection and enforcement capabilities that they carry out also.

MR. BARRETT: So, the Department of Government Services and lands, actually, do the inspections. Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: I think the big thing in this entire scheme is that we need to start to move ahead.

MR. BARRETT: If my colleagues behind me would be quiet, I could hear what you are saying, Mr. Minister.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

CHAIR: I will ask for order, please. There are a couple of conversations on the go and it is difficult to hear the replies.

MR. BARRETT: If my colleagues -

MR. JACKMAN: They are not even hearing you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: It is difficult for your colleague to hear the replies. I am just asking if we could be a little bit quieter?

MR. JACKMAN: I think the big thing, Mr. Barrett, is that we start to move ahead with the Waste Management Strategy. We know the deplorable conditions of some of the sites out there and, yes, it is Government Services and inspections and that kind of stuff, but the big thing is we need to move ahead with getting some of the sites remediated and closed and then having the other sites that are acceptable under environmental regulations and just under human decency.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, because I know, I have travelled to some of the areas -

MR. JACKMAN: I know what they are like in your district.

MR. BARRETT: Some of the dumps are -

MR. JACKMAN: You cannot even hunt a moose around close to the one there in Swift Current now.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. There was a moose last night just before I got to Goobies and I do not think he was headed towards the dump but -

MR. JACKMAN: No, it is too early for that yet.

MR. BARRETT: It was too early for that but - no, I think some of the dumps, the ones that are close to the road - I know that down in Southwest Arm and some of those areas there, that they get a lot of things blowing across the road and that sort of thing, which gets me - I know there are a lot of containers in the Province that there is no deposit on and nobody is out collecting them because there is no money attached to them. I spend a lot of time on the highway and - as a matter of fact, it is almost like you have to buy Tim Horton's cups. I mean, last night driving in was unbelievable. I guess you take notice of it, is that the whole highway is strung with Tim Horton's cups. As a matter of fact, here in the city, if you were to look around the bus stops now that the snow is gone - I was driving recently around the city, and around the bus stops all you see is Tim Horton's coffee cups. To me, it is becoming a real problem. They are not recyclable. I do not think they are recyclable because of the dye and all of this sort of thing. I suppose now with the roll up the rim it is even worse. It is creating a problem.

It is interesting, that in this Province we have some individuals who probably do more for the Department of Environment than any government department. Specifically, I want to talk about a young man from Arnold's Cove who lives in Clarenville now, his name is Paddy Lambe. He is going around with his bicycle with a thing on the back of it and that sort of thing. I will tell you one thing, if Tim Horton's cups, if you got a deposit for them, Paddy Lambe would have every one between here and St. John's cleaned up. He is doing a tremendous amount of work in the Clarenville area. As a matter of fact, I stopped the other day - I know him quite well - he said: Percy, is there any way that we can get some money for those Tim Horton's cups because all around Clarenville the ditches are full of Tim Horton's. Not only Tim Horton's, I am not just picking on that company, but there are a lot of coffee cups that there is no refund on and a lot of containers that there is no refund on. He said the trenches and the ditches are full of those cups. He said: I have a problem trying to find bottles because there are that many Tim Horton's cups on top of them. It is really disturbing my job. So, I think that is one area that government should look at.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Well, I think there are two things that come into play there. One is all the work that we have done on trying to educate people, that people still roll down their window and fire it out through the window. That just speaks volumes for how some things may not have worked or that there are certain individuals you will never get through to. I would almost say that it may not be the younger generation who are the culprits here. It may be people of my age who are more of the culprits.

The second thing is that in this entire strategy there is the extended producer responsibility. That means going after the businesses to pay their share of what comes into recycling here. So, maybe there is some way we can tap into bringing places like Tim Horton's and McDonald's and that kind of stuff into that and finding a way to address that particular problem.

MR. BARRETT: I think there is way that it could be done. I mean, a deposit could be charged on these particular cups. I know they are not recyclable, but if the towns themselves had a spot where people, like Paddy Lambe, could bring these containers and get credit for it, that they could get money for them, they would be out there collecting them. I mean -

OFFICIAL: Or make them recyclable.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, or say to the companies - I know that is, probably, more (inaudible). Well, we can make the regulations in our Province that Tim Horton's have to have - I do not know if they would go - it might have to do with more of a federal responsibility. But if there was some way to get - if these people were to get four or five cents, they would be out there collecting them. As a matter of fact, you could collect a lot of them because if they are not recyclable - they are not like cans, you could stamp them all down and get more on his bike.

MR. JACKMAN: I am certain, if you look into it, there has to be a way that can - I think there are health issues that are associated with things like recycling cups as compared to other items but, you know, if the will is there, there is always a way that you can find something to deal with it.

MR. BARRETT: Because I know with Paddy Lambe, when I am in Clarenville and I have a container that is recyclable, I am almost tempted to throw it through the window because I know that he is going to get some money out of it.

MR. JACKMAN: You are one of the culprits, you see.

MR. BARRETT: No, no, no. I mean, do not get me wrong. I mean, Paddy -

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible) and give them to him, boy.

MR. BARRETT: No, I think it is fantastic that we have these people who are doing that sort of thing because he is doing a great service. To the contrary, when I see him, I normally do not have containers. I give him two or three dollars to help him along the way.

I have a lot of questions but this is not the forum that I want to ask them in.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. BARRETT: Yes. I guess there is one question that I would like to ask, is the previous minister - in terms of the Agent Orange, right now there is - for the benefit of people in Newfoundland and Labrador. I want to outline - because I think it is a very serious issue and it affects people, former soldiers, Armed Forces people, and I do not think the federal government is doing much about it in terms of outside the New Brunswick area.

I recently visited a person in my district who died of cancer, a former soldier who was stationed in Gagetown. It looked very much like he was exposed to Agent Orange. I think your department, or the Department of Health, should do some kind of public relations to inform people because there is activity in New Brunswick. It seems to be only affecting the people who live in New Brunswick and not the rest - because a lot of our Newfoundlanders and Labradorians were stationed at Gagetown.

MR. JACKMAN: What sort of a campaign are you talking about, to educate people who may have been in New Brunswick or...?

MR. BARRETT: Right now it looks like these people are going to be reimbursed, right?

MR. JACKMAN: Okay.

MR. BARRETT: A lot of these people - the records may not show that they were there. I do not know who is looking after the interests of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. Is it the federal government? Is it the Veterans Affairs or Armed Forces or anybody else? Because right now this individual contacted Veterans Services, and they said: Well, it wouldn't be us who would look after something like that. So, I think it is a role for the provincial government to get out there and say somebody within your department - at least to compile a list of names of people.

MR. JACKMAN: (Inaudible) through New Brunswick.

MR. BARRETT: Here.

MR. JACKMAN: Here.

MR. BARRETT: Yes, because it looks very much like there will be people that will be looked after who lived in and around, and were on the base in Gagetown, New Brunswick. This man now will not be able to follow up on anything because he has passed away. I visited him two or three weeks before he died, and he outlined to me: Would I investigate and keep up this - because I was the one who brought up the Agent Orange in the Province.

MR. JACKMAN: So you think there might be a role here for Intergovernmental Affairs?

MR. BARRETT: Yes. As a matter of fact, I should have asked Intergovernmental Affairs. But I think that as a government you should take some leadership in - let's face it, a lot of people out there are not aware of what happened up there. A lot of these people now are dying from cancer and they are leaving families behind, and it looks like there is going to be some reimbursement.

This gentleman I am talking about had cancer over the last year or so. Him and his wife had a bit of money saved up to keep them through the rest of their lives. His drugs were so expensive, even though he was getting 80 per cent of the cost because he was a retired Armed Forces person. They used up most of their money with expensive drugs. It looks very much like the cancer probably was because of the - and the type of cancer that he had, I will not say what the cancer is right now, was related to the fact that he was exposed to Agent Orange. I think somebody should take the leadership to make sure that people out there are aware. If they are going to reimburse people in New Brunswick, then they should very well reimburse Newfoundlanders who were on the base, either working in the Armed Forces or as civilians. There are people from Newfoundland and Labrador who worked up there as civilians on the base.

MR. JACKMAN: I will certainly take it under advisement and discuss it with officials here and then see if we need to involve other departments.

MR. BARRETT: Yes. Just a quick question, what ever happened to the person on Suvla Street who had to move out because of the oil spill?

MR. JACKMAN: As of the end of this month, the housing contract that was in place will no longer be in place. The second thing is that there is legal action pending there. Therefore, it is probably not appropriate that I comment on that right now. They have taken that route and have notified department officials. So, that is where it is.

MR. BARRETT: It has been ongoing for a long, long time.

MR. JACKMAN: It has been ongoing since 2001.

MR. BARRETT: Your former colleague, your former minister had it all solved before he became the minister. He has been resting on it for the last two-and-a-half years. I am not criticizing you, you were not even there.

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. BARRETT: But I want to point out to you, that's not the only case.

MR. JACKMAN: I know.

MR. BARRETT: There are a tremendous number of cases around the Province right now where - and I visited some of them - the person next door had an oil spill, never reported it and then, all of a sudden, somebody dug up something and their back gardens are - there are cases around. So, the department is going to have to take some leadership soon in solving that particular problem, because people now - I know I visited a couple who paid a mortgage for twenty-five years -

MR. JACKMAN: When did that spill happen, back in 2001?

MR. BARRETT: Four or five years ago.

MR. JACKMAN: I think the thing right now is, I think there is something like over 600 spills that occurred in 2001 and then steadily after that inspections were put in, and so on and so forth. I think the following year there was only something like seventy. The numbers are decreasing and the inspection methods that are in place now, and the number of inspectors that the department has put in place, that is going to drastically reduce that. The unfortunate situation is that you have an individual next door whose oil tank spills, insurances are not in place, and then people are caught in real serious dilemmas. Like you say, Suvla Street is one but it is not the only case. I am taking a look at the other cases. I am aware of one that happened in Gander, another one that is in Corner Brook, and there may be others.

MR. BARRETT: The one in Gander I am quite familiar with. The documents indicate to me that the department was at fault in that one because there was a spill and they reported it as so many litres that were there and, when the cleanup was done, there were only sixty litres recovered. Then it seeped out into the guy next door's garden and he is left now with a house that is worthless, useless. He has paid twenty years, or twenty-odd years, on his mortgage, it is not worth anything and he can't sell it. There are some on Forest Road here in St. John's. They are all over the place. I mean, somebody is going to have to take some leadership. They are innocent victims.

MR. JACKMAN: There is no doubt about it.

MR. BARRETT: Probably we should put some kind of a levy on the oil, some oil or what have you, to -

MR. JACKMAN: I think the regulations that are in place now will certainly address those kinds of things.

MR. BARRETT: The regulations are not going to (inaudible) these people in terms of their lives.

MR. JACKMAN: No, and that is what I have said to you. Somebody who had an oil spill in 2001, for whatever reason - extreme winters or whatnot caused a number of severe oil spills, so there are people who are in very unfortunate situations. I agree with you.

MR. BARRETT: The Province is getting a fortune from oil now. We at least should clean up the oil spills we have. All of that money that is coming in right now from the oil that caused the problem (inaudible).

MR. JACKMAN: I can't comment on that other than wonderful.

MR. BARRETT: I have other work to do.

CHAIR: (Inaudible) questions, do you?.

MR. BARRETT: The questions I have would be much more appropriate to ask in the House.

CHAIR: Ms Jones.

MS JONES: We didn't ask any questions on the Wildlife section this morning but I wanted to first of all let you know that we are pleased that you did not cut the budget in that division of your department. I did have a question under section 4.2.07., which is on page 113, and it is the Institute for Biodiversity and Ecosystem Science. Last year you budgeted $80,000 and you only spent $21,000 in Salaries. I am just wondering if there was someone laid off in that division, or a vacancy of some kind?

MR. JACKMAN: Two new positions were not filled, but they have been filled right now.

MS JONES: So, in the 2005-2006 budget year you only spent $21,000. You are telling me there were two vacancies there?

MR. JACKMAN: They were filled in December and January.

MS JONES: What were the positions?

MR. MAHONEY: There were two positions. One was for a manager of the institute and the other was for a co-ordinator of programs. For a variety of reasons, as the minister points out, those positions were not filled until December or January and, as a result of that, the budgeted amounts for Salaries were not used, obviously. In this fiscal year coming, of course, they will be fully committed.

MS JONES: Okay.

Could you just tell me a couple of the programs that you would be involved with through the institute right now?

MR. MAHONEY: The institute is involved in supporting graduate student research on a wide variety of issues pertaining to natural resources. There is research being conducted on food habits, for example, in the predator guild that is currently implicated in the caribou decline, lynx, black bear and red fox. We also have research going on at the honours level with respect to issues in Burnt Cape identifying things such as the ecological relationships that exist there, and the spider fauna which is very unique in that region because of the unique geological formations. We have research currently ongoing with Corner Brook Pulp and Paper looking at certain forest access and cutting practices, and the implications that they have for a wide variety of wildlife species. We have a project being supported at the Ph.D level now which is looking at the ecology of coyotes and its implications for the caribou decline.

We have a significant project underway now on climate change with the University of Dresden in Germany, and a wide variety of others that are proposed for the next fiscal year that will include things as diverse as brook trout, obviously some large mammal investigations, and also the potential for some socio-economic evaluations for not just wildlife resources but other natural resources in the Province.

Some of those projects will be synchronized, to some extent, with activities planned by the Centre for Environmental Excellence in Corner Brook and with Sir Wilfred Grenfell College, obviously, but we are also expanding the program, if you will, to include other universities nationally and internationally.

I would point out that IBES is available to all government departments to suggest research priorities that they may wish to have graduate students funded through. So the plan, obviously, is to make the Institute for Biodiversity Ecosystems Science and Sustainability support as many young researchers investigating serious questions of applied research in Newfoundland and Labrador as we possibly can, obviously within the limits of the funding we have and in conjunction with many partners, the suite of which continues to expand as IBES becomes more formalized and better established.

MS JONES: Aside from the graduate students who would be there, how many staff would be at this institute?

MR. MAHONEY: There are currently two staff positions. Both of those positions are housed at Sir Wilfred Grenfell College, and at the present time there are only two positions with the institute.

MS JONES: Okay, but obviously you have a lot of connection with them in your capacity in the department, do you?

MR. MAHONEY: Yes, and the idea of IBES is not that it should, in and of itself, conduct all of the work but rather it should form a conduit, a portal, between the academic community and government, and allow us to build a consortium of interests between industry, the public, academia and government agencies that all hold one thing in common, which is to ensure that we have a knowledge basis for the conservation of natural resources and for the sustainability of those resources, and for the improved opportunities for people in all of our communities to benefit from those resources where they exist.

The institute is more a facilitating structure than it is one that ‘operationalizes' the research itself, so the students, for example, will have academic supervisors at the university. Government officials may sit on the committees and so forth. The ideas are largely suggested by government departments in terms of what should be researched.

MS JONES: I don't see any money in the Grants and Subsidies section of the institute piece. Do these graduate students get paid for the work they do, or is this done free?

MR. MAHONEY: There have been monies placed in the Grants and Subsidies piece previously, if you notice the figures there.

MS JONES: I did, yes.

MR. MAHONEY: It depends. In some cases, the institute is able to provide a kind of in-kind support by just helping to operate as a liaison function between the academics and the students in government. In some cases we make available to them information bases that does not involve a transfer of money at all but simply give them access to information within government. In other cases, however, we do provide some support to the students through arrangements that vary with the different universities that are involved. In some cases there will be monies moved through the Office of Graduate Studies, for example, at the university which will be made available from the institute. In other cases we provide some direct field support, actual money that can be used to buy supplies or things of this nature for some of the research in support of the students.

What we try to do is not duplicate the efforts of the university. If a student is of sufficient academic ranking, for example, to have access to scholarships and so on and so forth, then there is no need for the provincial government to use its limited funds in support thereof. In other cases, if the student is not receiving sufficient support from the university then we may help by providing some money to the university to help support that student as a scholarship or fellowship.

MS JONES: If one of the graduate students was doing a study on brook trout, as you said, and they had to travel to two or three different communities, the institute would cover their cost and all of that stuff, would it?

MR. MAHONEY: Yes, it can. Again, it depends on the partners. In a situation like that we might have DFO, we might have the university, we might have ourselves. Of the entire amount of expenses that the student might have, each of us would contribute where it made most sense for us to do so.

If, in that case, for example, DFO had all the logistic infrastructure, we might end up - by we, the institute, might end up - helping provide the student some living support, but in other cases we might be the ones who help provide fuel for a truck or some small amount of equipment that they needed to conduct their research. It depends very much on the individual study and how many other partners we are able to bring into this. So far, we have a wide variety of partners. We have formal relationships with Trenton University and now with Dresden in Germany, and we have two Irish universities and one in England that are interested as well.

MS JONES: Thank you.

I don't have any other questions.

CHAIR: Do any other members of the Committee have any questions?

The minutes were circulated for last night's meeting, a bit earlier. I would like a motion to adopt those, please.

MR. YOUNG: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Young.

Seconder?

Ms Johnson, thank you.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Contra-minded, ‘nay'.

Carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I would like to thank the Committee and the minister and his staff for coming out today.

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you very much for your time.

I have to call the headings for the Committee to vote.

Shall 1.1.01. to 4.2.07. carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Contra-minded, ‘nay'.

Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 4.2.07. carried.

On motion, Department of Environment and Conservation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Motion to adjourn, please?

MR. YOUNG: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Young, seconded by Mr. Hunter.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Contra-minded, ‘nay'.

Carried.

Thank you very much.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.