Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Terry French, MHA for the District of Conception Bay South replaces Harry Harding, MHA for the District of Bonavista North.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Kevin Parsons, MHA for the District of Cape St. Francis replaces Ray Hunter, MHA for the District of Grand Falls-Windsor-Green Bay South.

The Committee met 9:00 a.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (French): Well, good morning folks. I see we have (inaudible) this morning, so I would like to start off. This is my first venture into this Committee, but I am switching with Mr. Harry Harding this morning.

Before I ask the minister to say a few words, I think the first thing I should do is – there is only one member from the Opposition here, so we will start with you, I guess, to ask a few questions. So feel free to keep it going as long as you like and we will interject if anybody else has anything to say.

The other thing I was going to suggest is that before responding to a question, if you could identify yourself for the people doing the recordings.

I will call the first subhead 1.1.01.

I will ask the minister to introduce his group and then I will ask the Committee to introduce themselves. Then we will have a few words from the minister.

MR. ORAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, we have my Deputy Minister, Ray Dillon. Sitting next to him is Laurie Skinner, my Assistant Deputy. Mark King, Director of Communications, and Linda Vaughan, she is the Director of Financial Operations.

CHAIR: Okay. For the Committee we have, I am going to start with Mr. Parsons.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Kelvin Parsons, MHA for Burgeo & LaPoile.

MR. VERGE: Wade Verge, Lewisporte District.

MR. DALLEY: Derrick Dalley, MHA for the District of the Isles of Norte Dame.

MR. BAKER: Jim Baker, MHA for Labrador West.

MR. KEVIN PARSONS: Kevin Parsons, MHA for the District of Cape St. Francis.

CHAIR: Terry French, MHA for Conception South.

Without any further ado, I will turn it over to you, Mr. Oram.

MR. ORAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning everyone. I would like to take this moment to highlight some of the activities of the department actually during the past year.

The Department of Business has been allocated $39.3 million for 2009-2010, for this next fiscal year, to fulfill its mandate to provide leadership for business development and growth in Newfoundland and Labrador. Actually, the vast majority of that funding will go towards continued support of the department's primary focus which is to attract new business to the Province.

The funding initiative for business attraction originally established in 2007 was renewed in Budget 2009 and is the core financial incentive program for the provincial government's ongoing efforts to attract new inward investment to the Province. This entails a total of $29 million under the Business Attraction Fund and accompanying grants funding designed to support opportunities through loans and equity investments for business outside of Newfoundland and Labrador to locate or expand operations in the Province.

Through our business attraction efforts, the department was successful this past fiscal year in supporting growth of new business in the Province, from mainstays like manufacturing to industries that present opportunities new to our Province, such as video game development. These are creating additional jobs and diversifying our economic base.

I am also pleased to say that a brand new program was announced in Budget 2009 aimed at promoting development of this Province's growing aerospace and defence industry with $2 million available this fiscal year. The Province's aerospace and defence sector is involved in a range of activities, products and services from manufacturing and assembly of aircraft components to MRO, to navigation and communication technologies, and also to flight training.

It has potential to grow. The new fund will assist companies in aerospace and defence related work in Newfoundland and Labrador and in so doing, will help build capacity, improve competitiveness, expand expertise, attract investment and generate business and employment opportunities.

The Department of Business will also continue to administer the Oil and Gas Manufacturing and Services Export Development Fund with $1.5 million allocated this fiscal year. In 2008-2009 this program facilitated export based business oil and gas supply and services based on the West Coast, the Burin Peninsula and also in St. John's.

I am very pleased to say to the Chair and members of the Committee that the Department of Business will be very proactive again over the coming year to promote and facilitate new business development and growth in our Province. We also continue to build on the Province's brand identity which is growing ever stronger as a very distinct and recognizable symbol for Newfoundland and Labrador as this government markets the Province as a preferred destination for business, tourists, new comers and expatriates.

Finally, the department has the lead role in the provincial government's initiative to reduce red tape and improve the regulatory environment. The three-year goal was to reduce regulatory requirements by 25 per cent. This initiative has made great progress, thanks to the work of our dedicated public employees across government, and we will be reporting on that progress in the near future.

The Department of Business will continue in its mission to attract new business to Newfoundland and Labrador with an eye to supporting the vision of a vibrant sustainable economy built for the long term.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I am happy to answer any questions.

CHAIR: Thank you very much, Minister.

I guess we will start off with Mr. Parsons.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Bear with me if I am sounding nasal, I have a head cold and I lost my hearing. I flew in on the weekend and I have not recovered from the pressure I guess from the flight. So I am not hearing very well. If I ask sometimes to repeat something it is not because I am trying to pester you it is because I just actually did not hear your response.

A little bit of clean up first of all. I noticed, I do not think the observers were included in the introductions. There is a new Chair today compared to last night but last night, Mr. Chairman, the Chairman did acknowledge the presence of the NDP observers and they are in fact referenced in the minutes.

Ms Michael is unavailable due to a death in the family. I asked last night on behalf of the NDP because they have observer status but not participation status. What we actually agreed to last night was if the NDP observers had any questions that they wanted to ask the minister they did so through me at the end of the session. If they had any questions they passed them on to me and I put them to the minister on behalf of Ms Michael who could not be here. I am just wondering if that process is okay today, and if so, maybe we could have the individuals introduced again. I do notice as well that the minutes from last night show that it was Adam Morgan on behalf of the NDP but I believe it is Ivan Morgan. So that correction to the minutes as well.

CHAIR: I understand that Ms Michael is out. I think these meetings are open to the general public. Anybody can come, but I only think the people who are on the Committee would be recognized but I do not see anything wrong with you asking questions on anybody's behalf whether it be the NDP or anybody else. You would ask the questions, not the member of the visiting group.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Correct, yes. I just wanted –

CHAIR: I certainly want to acknowledge the staff of the NDP, thank you for coming, but like I said, I have no problem with them giving you the questions and asking them. That would be fine I would think.

In the meantime, having said that, if you have any questions, and because Ms Michael is not here present, if she has any questions, and I will concur with the minister, I am sure if any specific question she has, because she is away on a family emergency, would you be fine with responding to that in writing at another time?

MR. ORAM: Sure, not a problem at all. Yes.

CHAIR: Okay, carry on.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: To get started, first of all, a housekeeping matter. I do not know if it is housekeeping or not, again, but a confusing issue I call it. I am going to provide the minister here with a copy of the 2008 Estimates from last year, just for reference purposes.

MR. ORAM: Sure.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: I will see if I can explain this properly.

Minister, if you look at last year's Estimates, page 105, I believe it is.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Under the section there headed up 2008/2009 Estimates, it shows, for example, under Business Attraction, Salaries in the amount of $1,138,400. Last year's Estimates – if you now go to page 103 in this year's Estimates -

MR. ORAM: Yes, go right ahead.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: - that is the same page, basically, as last year.

MR. ORAM: It is.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Last year that page was on 105, this year it is on 103.

MR. ORAM: Right.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: If you look at page 103 this year, it shows - under the far right column there, under the same heading, Business Attraction, Salaries - $1,229,500. What was on page 105 that I referenced first, the $1,138,400, last year's Estimates should be this year's budgeted figure, but it is not the same.

Now when you look as well in the next column or the next number down from that, last year it was $7,600, this year it is $17,600.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: If you keep on going down, when you come to the Purchased Services it showed $356,200, but it shows $346,200.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Now I have two problems with it. Number one, is there an explanation how last year's Estimates are different? They cannot be different. They were the budgeted, authorized expenditures. So why are we seeing a different figure here now this year?

MR. ORAM: I have no idea, but I can check that out and let you know. I do not know if someone here might know.

Linda can actually answer that.

MS VAUGHAN: We had a restatement this year for the 8 per cent salary increases. Last year's budget would have had – I do not know what the numbers were – an amount in and then there is 8 per cent added on for the salary increases for all employees over the year.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Right.

MS VAUGHAN: Then, during the year there could have been some other restatements within the departments that would change the budget in the other areas.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: I have gone back over the last ten years that I have been here; there have never been restatements like this.

MS VAUGHAN: Yes, there are restatements. Whenever there are salary increases there would be restatements during the year, because it is more actively reflecting what happened during the year.

What happens is the money is usually budgeted in the Department of Finance when you know there are going to be salary increases approved. Then, during the year they are restated from the Department of Finance over to the departments. That is what happened.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: What I am getting at – and your 8 per cent, by the way, does not apply to the Purchased Services issue, number one.

MS VAUGHAN: No, it does not.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Obviously.

What I am saying is: What goes under, and always goes under, the Estimates, you can do whatever restatements you want in the department but you cannot restate what was authorized by the House. That is what I am saying. The figure that was authorized last year was $1,138,400. You could restate it, you could even spend more - there are ways to spend more - but what I am saying is when you print it this year to show what your Estimates were from last year they have to be the same figure.

MS VAUGHAN: No. In the main Supply Bill there is actually a stipulation that is usually put in it that says you can restate the money during the year. That is in the main Supply Bill that is approved in the House.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Is this something new?

MS VAUGHAN: No, it has been there.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Because we have noticed it this time, for the first time in ten years, that the Estimates of the previous year, to what you are showing as budgeted for this year, is changed. We found it last night in the issue of Tourism. We found it as well in Human Resources, and it is the first time it has happened.

MS VAUGHAN: No, it is not the first time.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Pardon?

MS VAUGHAN: It is not the first time. It happens whenever it is approved in the main Supply Bill. It happens other years as well. It probably has not happened now in a while because the money was known up front how much we would put in for salary increases, but the past year we were not sure, or government was not sure, how much would be approved in each department.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: How can anyone ever do a comparison, then, on the figures from one year – line by line, for example? How can anybody ever say, for example, last year you had $1,138,000 for salaries and this year you are showing $1,327,000 for salaries; what is the reason for the increase?

MS VAUGHAN: That could be provided. We could go the Department of Finance and get you a record of how much money was transferred out to each department for salary increases. That can be provided to you.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: But you do not show it in the budget documents?

MS VAUGHAN: No.

MR. ORAM: I would like to check that out as well. Just so I can understand, Mr. Parsons, you are saying that the other Estimates that you have looked at have the same issue?

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: The ones that I did. Last night we did Tourism and that was the case. Again, we never found this in any previous year that we have been involved in. It was disconcerting, because we are trying to compare what we thought this is what your figure was last year and this is what you are saying this year, but the figures do not match from last year to this year.

MR. ORAM: Again, I understand what Linda is saying. The fact of the matter is, though, I understand where you are coming from as well. You really need figures to compare, on a financial document, from one year to the next.

I have no problem with at least checking to see exactly why this has been done this way this year, but I do understand where you are coming from. It is kind of confusing.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Okay.

Where I will go, then, given the statement Ms Vaughan made, could you provide us with the paperwork and the figures to show the details of why the difference between the $1,138,400 and what you have stated as your budgetary? You are looking at about $100,000 difference. Could you provide us with the details so that we can do the math ourselves and figure out why the changes took place in all of those headings, so that we will have the information and to show why it was, in fact, varied, and what it was varied on?

Also in that regard, Minister, I realize that under the Financial Administration Act you can, in fact, albeit that heading under Salaries might be one number, you can spend more if you go through a certain process under the Financial Administration, and you can shuffle money around from one pot to another.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: My understanding - and correct me again if I am not correct – this is an increase here. Something has happened. You have done these adjustments for some reason. The money came from somewhere.

MR. ORAM: Absolutely.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: One explanation, in the case of the salaries, was an obvious one of an 8 per cent salary increase. When that happened, did you have to go through any process with Treasury Board to do that?

MR. ORAM: Absolutely.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Is it possible for us to have the paperwork you used to do that?

MR. ORAM: Yes, we can get that. We will provide any information that you need.

MS SKINNER: That was a global government initiative where they went back and reflected. The 8 per cent was reflected somewhere in the budget last year and then, because it was then allocated out to all of the departments, it is reflected in each individual departmental budget. That would be more of a global response rather than a departmental response. We can certainly get that for you.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Okay. Thank you.

MS SKINNER: We would not have specific Treasury Board minutes specific to the Department of Business because that would be a global decision that would have been made across government.

MR. ORAM: It still would have had to go to Treasury Board, but a global decision.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Yes, okay.

Minister, first of all, on the expenditures, I will go right to the Business Attraction pot.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: That is this year's 105. It is broken into two pots, it seems. One in the Special Initiatives – Investment Attraction.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: And then you have your Business Attraction Fund.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: One had $7 million, and the other one had $25 million.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: It looks like there is a reduction this year in the Investment Attraction one by $2 million.

MR. ORAM: A reduction? No, there was no reduction in any of the funds at all.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Oh, excuse me. I am looking at the wrong page now. I am looking at the wrong one.

MR. ORAM: Okay.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: I was looking at last year's Estimates. I gave you my book, and I am relying on the copy.

MR. ORAM: Oh, I am sorry. Do you want this book again?

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: No, I will get it later.

I was on the same page from last year there.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: You have actually had an increase of $2.5 million over last year.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Any particular reason you anticipate more attraction this year?

MR. ORAM: Well, we started a new fund, the Aerospace and Defence Fund, which puts $2 million into the budget, and we increased the granted amount by about, I think it was $500,000.

OFFICIAL: A million.

MR. ORAM: A million, yes. Therefore, that is where you would see the reflected increase.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: So, under the Special Initiatives pot, we will call it, I take it you have further breakdowns in pots?

MR. ORAM: We do.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Like, you are telling me now you have a new Aerospace pot within that $7.5 million.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Is that where, also, the oil and gas sector piece is?

MR. ORAM: Oil and Gas Export Development Fund, yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Okay.

What else is under that?

MS SKINNER: I can give you the details on that.

The $7.5 million consists of the $4 million, which is just the non-repayable funding that is under our Business Attraction Fund, $1.5 million for the Oil and Gas Export Development Fund, and $2 million for the Aerospace and Defence Fund. That totals the $7.5 million that is in there.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Okay. Thank you.

I am just wondering; it looks like last year you had $5 million and you spent $1 million, and that seemed to be the history. The department, from what I have seen in the past years, has not been spending near what it had. Last year for example, there was $7 million and you did not spend any of it. This year you had $5 million and you spent $1 million.

Why do we have an increase, or need an increase, for the aerospace piece, if traditionally we have not even been spending what you did have?

MR. ORAM: Actually, the fact of the matter is that we have approved funding, but the funding does not go out the door. So, if you look at actual cash that has gone out, you will see what you see on the Estimates.

Having said that, we have signed deals and we have committed to $2.3 million on non-repayable and $1.5 million on the Oil and Gas Export Development Fund; because, again, a lot of our funding is contingent on timing. In other words, we give an amount of money that may be over a two year period or a three year period. Therefore, it kind of takes time for that fund to ramp up. What you see in Estimates in terms of what the cash - because that shows the cash that has gone out, but there is actually more than that spent. It is because of timing that you do not see it on the Estimates.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Okay.

Just to take a look at a couple of the announcements that you did make last year, I am referring to January of this year – it came out of last year's budget – in regard to A.H.M Fabricators in Corner Brook, $490,000.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: That came under this Oil and Gas Manufacturing and Services Export Development Fund, under this pot.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Did that go out the door this year? Is that shown here?

MR. ORAM: I cannot remember if we paid that out yet or not.

MS SKINNER: (Inaudible) a portion of the funds that has been paid out, but not all of it. It was approved in January and committed to. Then, by the time they got their claims and stuff in, I think we have one claim that we processed that would be reflected in last year's money.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Okay.

MR. ORAM: The thing is, again, you do not pay all of your money up front. I think you can appreciate that. You do not just give a cheque for the money. So, because of the timing, and because of the targets that need to be met before we pay out exactly what we have agreed to, we have to ensure first that our target is being met and then we pay the funds as the targets are being met.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: In terms of the targets that were there under A.H.M., they were expected to expand their operation to create twenty-two new full-time jobs.

MR. ORAM: Pardon me? Sorry.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: They were expected to create twenty-two new full-time jobs –

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: - in addition to Atlantic Hydraulics' current workforce of twelve full-time and several part-time positions.

MR. ORAM: Right.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: I realize we are only a short time out here - we are only into the first of April, and the announcement was made back in January - but what are the stats so far on that twenty-two job piece?

MR. ORAM: I am not exactly sure how many jobs they have actually created at this point, but we can certainly get that information for you. I do not know if Laurie may know. I do not think we have the exact figures right now.

MS SKINNER: I would not be able to report on that, the reason being, again, because their first claim is being processed. When they put in their first claim they give us a progress update as to where they are with their hiring. We can certainly provide that information to you, but I do not have it with me today.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Mr. Chairman, as we go through, too, I would ask - the Clerk normally keeps a list of undertakings that the minister says we will provide. That way, it makes it easier for everybody to follow at the end of the day as to what is asked and when it is received.

CHAIR: Sure.

MR. ORAM: We will make note of that, as well, to ensure that you get the information.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Minister, it makes sense, of course, that you commit, but you have a timeline as to when it actually goes out the door because it depends on certain things happening, I guess. Is it a case of they have to provide you certain information? Like, when you agree to give them the money, they agree to do a, b, c and d, and you have people who monitor this?

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: In a case such as this, A.H.M. Fabricators, you are dealing with two things, I believe. It is an expansion, which I guess involves some capital expenditures –

MR. ORAM: That is right.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: - and then you have hirings of people, so you do monitor both. It is not just the equipment purchases that you tie into the $490,000?

MR. ORAM: No, absolutely, we monitor both. In all cases there is the number of jobs that are created, if the number of jobs being created is tied to the funding, because that is not always the case. It may be that we are looking for the amount of infrastructure that is being built or being put together, so therefore it will look at two lines; but, again, if it is based on creating x number of jobs for, say, $490,000 then we will monitor that portion. We will also look at whether or not the company has put the money into the infrastructure that they had said they would put into the infrastructure under the agreement that we had already made.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: This money was intended for A.H.M., it says in the press release, to establish a new metal fabrication facility to broaden its capabilities, principally to secure lucrative export contracts in the oil and gas industry.

Has the economic meltdown that we have experienced in the last six months, have you had any indication from A.H.M. that their intended purposes and hoped-for success has been impacted in any way as a result? Because everybody, including Alberta, who I would think was one of their export clientele, no doubt is feeling the impact.

Have you had any feedback from A.H.M. that this has been a factor in their progress?

MR. ORAM: No, actually they keep saying that they have signed contracts that they have been working on for the last number of years.

You have to remember that the oil and gas sector in Alberta still continues, and I know you are aware of that. For instance, Suncor and these projects that have been already started and that continue to move forward, they need to be supplied, so companies such as A.H.M., they have been supplying these particular companies that have work that is ongoing, and they will continue to do so. They tell us that there is no slowdown in what they are doing at all.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Minister, looking at one of the other investments from last year, again in the oil and gas development fund, the Burin Peninsula, Grand Bank-based Dynamic Air Shelters Limited.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: They have existed for some time, I understand.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: You have provided $500,000 to them to, it says, build its capacity.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Again, what is the situation? That was last year, in November. What kind of progress do you have to report so far in terms of that $500,000?

MR. ORAM: I am going to pass it over to Laurie because I am not sure what the reports are. I would not have seen the reports.

MS SKINNER: We have their claims in now and they are on track. Well, they had a targeted job creation of thirty and a maintenance of their existing seventy positions, and they are targeting against the job creation that we would have expected them to create to date.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: So the numbers are in line with what you expected?

MS SKINNER: In line, yes.

MR. ORAM: If I could just make a comment on dynamic air shelters as well, because you mentioned it is important. When they started out they looked at continuing to work in the oil and gas sector and the mining sector in providing these air shelters. They also have been focusing on the military as well, by the way. So it is funny - business continues to evolve as times change. So they have been able to critique their business and move in another direction, or a little bit in another direction, towards the military in looking at providing these shelters for the military as well. They keep critiquing their business plan, but our main goal of course is to see that they create the employment and the opportunity in the area.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: The PanGeo Subsea, a $500,000 contribution, again from the oil and gas development fund. That is another Newfoundland company that was expanding, wanted some assistance and you put the money into. What is the situation on their progress?

MR. ORAM: They are progressing very well, actually. Again, they have met their job targets. In fact, they are getting ready to expand again as we speak. The progress there has been very, very good and cutting edge technology that we were very happy to invest in.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: The explanation we received last year when we asked of the distinction between the Department of Business and the Department of Innovation, Trade was that ITRD normally funded projects from existing businesses in the Province, whereas your department was geared to attracting business to the Province.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: What I see here now is these are all existing businesses, the last three I referred to, and you have assisted them. I have no problem with the fact that you are assisting business, but how does the general public distinguish where they go, given the earlier statement that we come to you? If I am outside, how would I have ended up in your department as opposed to ITRD? It is a bit confusing.

MR. ORAM: Yes, I understand. We feel we have done, obviously, a very good job in promoting this particular fund. This fund was a fund that was created to build capacity in the oil and gas export development area. Therefore, by building capacity in that area, now we have an opportunity to attract business from outside of Newfoundland and Labrador because we have built that capacity. Again, this grant structure, this funding structure was put in place and given to the Department of Business to administer because we saw the opportunity to grow the capacity to actually show the industry from outside of Newfoundland and Labrador that we are able now to supply them as well.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: But it still does not answer the question. My understanding from your explanation last year was that if I am in Montreal, you do tours, marketing, whatever strategies, to try to get me to bring my company from Montreal, to set up business here to create jobs. ITRD takes the company that is in Corner Brook and expands it and grows it to do business, whether it is here or outside. This seems to be, that is the confusing part.

MR. ORAM: Yes, I know, it seems to be an INTRD fund. Yes, I understand.

The fact, though, is that we looked for this fund because we saw a gap in where the oil and gas sector needed some extra money. So this was a program that was put in place to be administered by our department and we were dealing with the oil and gas one. It is a sector that we have been focusing on in our department. You have to look at, as well - you focus on these three but then if you look at other oceans, for instance, the video gaming company that we brought in from outside.

If you look at Progress Software from down in Boston, Massachusetts, they came in from the outside. If you look at Kodiak, Kodiak were existing in Newfoundland and Labrador but they were looking at changing and moving their facility from Harbour Grace back out to Ontario and we managed to get them to expand in Newfoundland and Labrador, not only expand but retain the jobs in Newfoundland and Labrador. Again, there was a huge amount of inward investment when you look at Kodiak. There are a couple of other projects that are going to be announced in the next couple of days, again from outside of the Province.

So the oil and gas export development fund was a one-off fund that was put in place to help build the sector. We felt that we wanted it in our department because we had the ability to be able to build capacity and then to show what we have actually done and work with these particular companies to attract new business into Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: I guess it comes down to interpretation again. Your department's mandate is to attract business and jobs.

MR. ORAM: Which is what we are doing.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Well, that will be determined I guess when we see the success of it.

MR. ORAM: Well, if you look down on your paper and you look at the Estimates, you will see that we attracted business from outside of Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Minister, I am not intending to be argumentative with you. I am here to ask you questions.

MR. ORAM: You are being argumentative because you are not acknowledging that we have brought companies in from outside. You are focusing on three oil and gas export development funds, companies that have been funded. Our department has been given a fund to address and to fund companies within the Province in the oil and gas sector. It is a separate fund. It is used to enhance and build capacity oil and gas sector. That is not the only thing we do. We also bring in companies from outside.

The impression that you leave, and maybe I am getting the wrong impression, is that the only thing we do is indigenous business, and that is not correct. If you look down at the Estimates you will find, and that is the information we have, that we have funded companies from outside of Newfoundland and Labrador that wanted to come in. So it is a fund that is put in place. We are administering the oil and gas development fund just as we are administering the Aerospace and Defence Development Fund, which will enhance capacity in the aerospace and defence sector.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: If you are finished, is it okay if I ask you some questions now, which is the intent of Estimates?

MR. ORAM: That is up to you.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Is it okay to proceed?

MR. ORAM: If you feel like proceeding that is fine.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Fine. Thank you.

Just to pursue this line again, your professed mandate is to attract business.

MR. ORAM: Which is what we are doing.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Well that will be determined, as I say.

The professed mandate is to attract business from outside the Province to bring it in.

MR. ORAM: Which is what we are doing.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: That was your stated goals of your department last year in these very Estimates Committees. Besides the three companies that I referred to, which came from the oil and gas sector, there were two others. I acknowledge Other Ocean Group Inc. from California, the video game development corporation, and Progress Software Corporation.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Again, came and took money. One I believe was $2.4 million over a five-year period, that would be Ocean Group, and the other one was $325,000, Progress Software. It all came out of this same pot, the Investment Special Initiatives pot.

We have had five announcements, is what I am saying, over the course of the last year from that pot of money. Three of which dealt with monies going into existing Newfoundland and Labrador businesses –

MR. ORAM: Right.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: - and so much which dealt with money going into two outside companies. Okay?

MR. ORAM: Three actually.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Three. Okay, I am missing one. I just have five here from what I –

MR. ORAM: Well, Kodiak, because they did not transfer.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Okay, maybe you can clarify that for me then. Did Kodiak come from the Investment Attraction fund, Special Initiatives pot, or did it come from the Business Attraction Fund?

MR. ORAM: No, it came from the Business Attraction Fund.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Okay. So there are five, as I say, that came from the Special Initiatives.

MR. ORAM: Other Oceans as well, by the way. A portion of that came from the Business Attraction Fund as well.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Okay.

Now the Kodiak one, the boot manufacturing company that has existed in Harbour Grace for years and years; as I understand it, that was a case where the company was either going to move to Ontario or the government was going to put money in to keep them here. Correct?

MR. ORAM: Not only move to Ontario and put money in to keep them here, but also, they were planning an expansion. So it was going to be a major inward investment from that particular company.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: That's right, and they were –

MR. ORAM: So the Business Attraction Fund, the details of the Business Attraction Fund, we can use that fund to attract business, or as long as there is a substantial amount of inward investment from outside of Newfoundland and Labrador, and that was the case with Kodiak.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Yes. Minister, no doubt they were going to expand, and as I understand it – correct me if I am wrong – they were going to expand and the choice was they were either going to do the expansion in Ontario or they were going to do it here, depending on where they got the most assistance.

MR. ORAM: Right.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Okay. And they got the most assistance here.

MR. ORAM: Right.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: To the tune of $8 million, probably the most substantial investment, I guess, that your department has made to date, or commitment you have made.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: In one single corporation; and no problem, by the way. Nobody has any problem with putting the money into expanding Kodiak to keep them here.

The point I am making is, again, it is not a company that you attracted from without to come here, a new established company. This was a company that we always had.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: So, can you point to anything, other than the two I have referenced here that came under your pot, the Boston one and the California one, to attract business here?

MR. ORAM: Yes, well –

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: These companies were already here. That is not your professed mandate, which is to attract in.

MR. ORAM: Right.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: So what I am saying is, would you agree that the vast majority of your investments for the last year were not to attract new business, it was to keep what we already had? That is what I am saying.

MR. ORAM: Yes, but we attract –

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: And I have no problem with that, by the way.

MR. ORAM: No, and I understand where you are coming from. I understand where you are coming from, and believe it or not, I am not trying to be argumentative, but the fact, though, is that not only did we retain the 170 jobs that were here – and yes, they would have possibly relocated somewhere else, but you have to realize, we created fifty new jobs by providing funding so the company would come from Ontario and move their operations to Newfoundland and Labrador.

So it falls within our mandate that they would move that particular part of the operation. Because there was a part of the operation that was in Ontario and they moved that part of the operation into Newfoundland and Labrador, which is exactly what our mandate is to do, to attract that particular portion of the business that was outside the Province back into Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Minister, my understanding is there was going to be an expansion; the expansion was going to take place somewhere.

MR. ORAM: Right.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Newfoundland or Ontario. It was not created. It did not exist. It was going to be done. They had a company in Newfoundland, in Harbour Grace, now we are going to do an expansion. We are going to do it in Ontario or we are going to do it in Newfoundland. We, fortunately, put up the most money and got them to come here to do it.

MR. ORAM: But having said that though, they closed their operations in Ontario and moved it here to Newfoundland and Labrador. That is an important point of all of this. When they closed their operations in Ontario then it showed that we were attracting that particular facet of business into Newfoundland and Labrador, and there is where the difference was.

For instance, just to get back to the dynamic air shelters, there was a fair bit of foreign investment there as well. It was a company from outside of Newfoundland and Labrador that want to invest in the Province as well.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: On the status, just to go back for a second to the video game development company. It says $2.4 million over five years. That was announced back in September, 2008. Could you give us the status now on the sixty-two jobs to be created?

MR. ORAM: Yes, we can.

One thing I just want to clarify as well though, Mr. Parsons, before we go on. With the Kodiak, the $8 million, that is a repayable loan. So it is not a granted amount of money that they received. They have to repay it.

I will ask Laurie to give us some updates on the Other Oceans.

MS SKINNER: Other Oceans, the components of the funding were $1.5 million in forgivable monies and repayable of a forgivable loan of $948,000. They targeted to create sixty-two jobs over five years. They have created fourteen to date. Primarily, people have been brought in from outside of the Province, which is a key consideration for us, because we provided funding to support recruitment from outside of the Province because the ICT industry right now has a skilled shortage there. So we are really pleased with the progress of that particular opportunity.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Where have they set up?

MS SKINNER: They are in a location downtown. I think it is next to the TD building on Water Street.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: I am just wondering, was there any thought given in the course of the progress to having them set up somewhere in rural Newfoundland as opposed to the Northeast Avalon?

MS SKINNER: Yes.

MR. ORAM: Actually, yes. We always try to put a rural ends on any investment that may want to come into the Province. We, primarily, asked the company if it is possible that they can set up in a rural area because of course it is nice to set up in rural areas. In fact, the funding that we have provided, by the way, it is pretty well split down the center. Half of it has gone, so far, to rural Newfoundland and Labrador and the other half has gone to the urban area, St. John's area.

In talking to Other Oceans, this was a fairly big debate back and forth wondering if we could do it somewhere else. In order to attract the people that they needed to attract, these professional people, they had to actually do it in St. John's. People wanted to live in St. John's. Their skill set kind of thing, it is very, very difficult to recruit people for rural Newfoundland and Labrador who do this type of work, so it was the company's contention that the only way their business plan could work is if it was done here in St. John's.

Again, we try to support it every way we can - we try to support rural Newfoundland and Labrador - but it has to make business sense, and if the company can provide us with the information that shows what the best business case is, then obviously our main concern is that it happens in Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: There used to be, if I am correct, an actual tax benefit. There was a program that used to exist in the Department of Finance some years ago, under the former Administration, whereby if you actually chose to live outside the overpass I think it was like a 25 per cent corporate tax reduction that you would have. Does that program still exist?

That was one of the incentives that was given to companies, that if you come here and you want to set up on the Northeast Avalon, fine, you pay the usual tax rate, but if you want to go outside the Northeast Avalon - and I think, depending on how far you went, actually, there were different zones of taxation - to the more depressed areas of the Province, they received a better tax break. I wonder if that program still exists, because that would tie in with your vetting process no doubt.

MS SKINNER: I am not sure if you are talking about the Direct Equity Tax Credit Program. That one has a ‘tiering' system where if you invest in a company that is outside of the Northeast Avalon you get a 35 per cent tax credit and if you invest in a company that is within the St. John's and Avalon Region then you get a 20 per cent tax credit. So there is some ‘tiering' that is going on with respect to certain of the tax credits.

Also, I guess, the EDGE program as well, there are some provisions that are different for the Northeast Avalon versus outside of the Northeast Avalon. That program is still in existence.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Do those programs tie in, in any way, with your attraction purposes? For example, when you vet the proposals, they are made aware of all those other programs as well and, notwithstanding that, they still chose to come to the Northeast.

MR. ORAM: Absolutely.

We always give the options and show every program that government has right across the whole scheme of taxation issues; the EDGE program, every program that we have, we make available and give them the information and a company determines what will work for them in terms of a business case.

Again, we do not fund to see failure; we fund to see success, and if success has to be that it has to be located in a certain area – and sometimes, you know, the fact is that there are companies that need to expand and need to relocate or locate in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, and in that case, of course, that is good news, but again it is all about the business case.

If the business case can be made, and the case can be shown that it needs to go in a certain area in order for it to work, then we support it.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Minister, I believe I saw a little press release or clipping on VOCM news yesterday and you had made some comments - I am not sure in what format - about impending announcements or something.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Is there anything you can elaborate on?

MR. ORAM: Yes, I can. Obviously I cannot give you the name of the company at this point, but within the next few weeks we are going to be announcing a couple of more deals that have been done. In fact, they are substantial deals that are going to create another – one deal is 130 jobs and the other deal is going to create another fourteen or fifteen jobs, but that will be coming in the next maybe two or three weeks. My concern is Easter, to get through the Easter holiday part before we actually make the announcement.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: In that regard, in terms of accessing your department - in fact, I have a person now who has contacted me from outside the Province, a company – what is the protocol, the best way to make contact with your department? Is it to just call the deputy minister's office, or someone in the –

MR. ORAM: Yes, call any of the – I would say call me personally, but call our office and we will certainly look into it right away. We are proactive in looking for every possible deal, or at least looking at doing a deal with anybody who has a proposal and a good business plan.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: In fact, this company - you mentioned the Easter break, and that was the issue - they called and said they wanted to come; it was between after Easter Sunday and the two-week period. Anyway, I just told them I would have to check it out because I do not know the situation, but I take it your department is still –

MR. ORAM: Not a problem at all; we will be there.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: - open and available and so on.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: How does one go about it in that particular case? Because there is such a range of programming, is it a case of one-stop shopping? Can they come into the Department of Business, for example - and they are interested in the tax programs, finance, what the Department of Finance has in that regard, and what INTRD might have - can they come into your shop and get access to all that through one place, rather than set up five different meetings?

MR. ORAM: We have no problem with that. We will facilitate any business that wants to look at Newfoundland and Labrador as a place to locate. We work with INTRD, we work with the Department of Finance and whatever department we need to work with – actually, with the Departments of Fisheries and Natural Resources – but, yes, they can come in through our door and we will point them in the right direction, and if there is anything we can do within our programs we will certainly want to do that as well.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Okay, thank you.

In addition to what is impending, the announcements, how much activity generally is on the go right now? Because I know it took some time to start up, as we found out through the Estimates over the years, growing a case. What are the activity levels now compared to before? How many files do you have on the go, roughly? Do you anticipate you are going to expend all of your monies this year and so on?

MR. ORAM: We do.

Again – and we talked about this last year, in fact - it takes the department a while to ramp up to actually get marketed and for the rest of the world to know that you even exist. From our perspective, we believe we are going to spend all of our funds this fiscal year. For instance, what we have to date, right now, we have $13 million under the loans equity program that will be going out, that is either approved or spent at this point. Laurie had mentioned earlier $2.3 million under the non-repayable BAF fund and $1.3 under the Oil and Gas Export Development Fund. Those are the monies that we have either committed to or spent to date.

Probably in our office now there are, I would suggest, four or five deals that are ongoing, that we hope to sign, and there is probably interest from another twenty or more companies out there that are looking at Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Thank you.

MR. ORAM: The Aerospace and Defence Development Fund, as well, we believe there is going to be a huge uptake on that fund. Again, by developing our aerospace and defence sector we have already had calls from outside, and we have done some travel as well in looking at the aerospace and defence sector, where we have companies that are really interested in Newfoundland and Labrador but they look at the capacity issue and there are some capacity issues in terms of education, there are capacity issues in terms infrastructure. This fund will help alleviate, to a certain degree, some of the capacity issues that we have. Therefore, these companies will look at coming into Newfoundland and Labrador more favourably.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: The Business Advisory Board comes under your department, I do believe.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Could you provide us with a current list of who the membership is on that board?

MR. ORAM: Actually, the Business Advisory Board no longer exists. As of December 31 we actually had ceased using the Business Advisory Board, simply because in the very beginning we had this Business Advisory Board in place because we did not have a full complement of staff. We had hardly any staff at all, and the Business Advisory Board was needed to kind of help with that work that needed to be done. Since that time, of course, we now have not a full complement but we are getting close to a full complement of staff. Therefore, we really did not need the services of the Business Advisory Board as a structured board.

Having said that, we as a department, and certainly me as a minister, I depend very, very much on the members of that board, on a telephone-meeting basis, where we chat about different things that are happening in the different sectors. So we engage the folk that were on the board before, but it is not a structured board any more.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Was the demise of the board publicly announced, the dismantling?

MR. ORAM: Yes, it was.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Back in January?

MR. ORAM: Yes, just after December.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: The air transportation study that was done by your department –

MR. ORAM: I knew you were going to ask that.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: I am just wondering where we are. Apparently government released the air transportation study that said you are - I believe the quote was - committed to identifying balanced, workable measures that address air access needs from a Province-wide perspective.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Where have we progressed beyond that?

MR. ORAM: That particular file was with the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. We felt, given the work that we do in attracting business to Newfoundland and Labrador, that air access seems to be an issue - we have been told it is an issue - so our department took it from Works and Services, or they passed it over to us from Works and Services.

We have a dedicated person right now who is developing a strategy to deal with air access, and we are moving along. We asked for more submissions, and the submissions are due by Friday, I think. When those submissions are done on Friday then, of course, we will compile our information and make a determination as to where we should be in terms of air access for the Province.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: That will be publicly announced?

MR. ORAM: Absolutely, it will be publicly announced.

When this study was commissioned they did some consultation with industry and so on, but when the study was released we felt it was important that folk have an opportunity to see what was in the study and then give comments on that, and that is what we have been doing.

Again, we have been trying to push this along to get it moving because there are areas in the Province that feel air access is a huge problem, and there is no question there are issues of air access. So, given the person that we have there now, who is working on this full time, we expect to clue this up within a timely manner, for sure.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Just a probing question, I guess: Was there any polling done by your department in the past year, at all?

MR. ORAM: Polling?

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Polling of any kind.

MR. ORAM: No, none at all.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Polling of the business community?

MR. ORAM: No.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Thank you.

MR. DILLON: Actual formal polling, to engage an outside third party (inaudible) polling.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Yes, or do it yourself.

Has purchased services included any polling that was done of any kind to the business community?

MR. ORAM: Not at all.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Thank you.

Back to the Terra Nova Shoes piece, the $8 million, just a little bit of detail around that. It is $8 million and the minister has indicated that it is a repayable loan. I am just wondering what security was taken for the loan?

MS SKINNER: We have a full corporate guarantee on the full $8 million.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Corporate guarantee from whom?

MS SKINNER: From the parent.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: From Kodiak?

MS SKINNER: Well, Williamson-Dickie is the parent company of that whole group right now.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Who is that?

MS SKINNER: Williamson-Dickie. I think I have the name right. They were acquired by that company within this last year. They provided a full corporate guarantee and reviewed the financial situation of that company and feel very strong that it is good.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Were there any mortgages taken over, local properties for example, a physical plant or anything like that?

MS SKINNER: No, we have the normal conditions in place with respect to insurance contracts that are on the buildings and that sort of thing, which we would put into most of our arrangements, but the corporate guarantee was provided for the full $8 million.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: You felt, as you say, comfortable enough with the parent guarantee. You did not need to have the actual – any mortgages or anything securing property?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Thank you.

Minister, have you seen any indication, or had any indication so far with the global economic situation of how it might impact your department?

MR. ORAM: Yes. I guess it is a two-way street. We see on one side that businesses that we met with from all areas across the world actually have been looking for other places to invest because of the downturn. They are looking for new and innovative products that they can create. That has been, probably, positive for us.

On the other side of the coin, of course, it is very, very difficult now to raise capital. So a lot of companies are finding that difficult. Having said that, we are finding that there are probably more companies – and I do not really know if we are seeing more activity from companies outside wanting to come in, if it based on the fact that it is very, very difficult now to raise capital so therefore they come to us to help with the raising of capital, or if it is the fact that the department is becoming more well-known, the Province is more well-known in the business community outside of the Province. They see an opportunity there because of the marketing that we have done.

At any rate, there is no doubt that this economic downturn is going to slow down what we would hope to be progress, but having said that, we still have a number of companies that are interested in doing business here.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: How many staff do you have now? I know last year it was a case of there were a lot of vacancies, you were ramping up and so on. What is the situation now in terms of staffing complement?

MR. ORAM: Yes, we are actually getting there. I am just trying to find it here now, so I will give you exactly what we have.

What tab is it under, Laurie?

MS SKINNER: (Inaudible).

MR. ORAM: Okay. I just want to find it here, because I have the –

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. ORAM: It is at the front, is it?

Okay. We have - actually, our full complement would be thirty-eight positions, of which we have right now, thirty-three that are filled at this point. We have interviews for another three going out next week, and we have put forth an offer for one. So altogether, we will, by the end of probably April, May, we should have our full complement of staff.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Yes. I realize we have a Departmental Salary component to the budget documents, but could you provide us with, again, a breakdown of the thirty-eight positions and the titles that go with them, and what they actually do?

MR. ORAM: Sure, yes. Not a problem.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: I take it they are all in the St. John's area, in the building?

MR. ORAM: Yes, they are.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Okay.

Minister, I do not have anything further.

Thank you very much.

MR. ORAM: You are welcome.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: I am not sure if the NDP had any questions they wanted me to ask on their behalf.

I was tempted to go to the Red Tape Reduction, but I am not even going to touch that.

MR. ORAM: We could do that if you want, I feel good about that.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: No, no. I do not want to clutter the tapes.

MR. ORAM: We will talk to you about it later.

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Okay.

CHAIR: There was a time you would never see the Liberals and the NDP working together like this close. Times have changed.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Minister, a couple of questions here.

MR. ORAM: Yes.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: How many businesses has government or did government actually approach to come to Newfoundland in 2008?

MR. ORAM: If I said – approach as in? I mean, we are out there looking at attracting business constantly. I know on one trip that we went on we had over a hundred people attend a reception that were interested in doing business in Newfoundland and Labrador, of which a number of those companies we have made contact with since and they have business plans and so on. There must be hundreds of companies that I met with, there have to be, that our department has met with in terms of looking at attracting them back to Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Have you had any instances where companies you have been dealing with did not come to the Province, in particularly to rural Newfoundland, because of a lack of broadband?

MR. ORAM: No. In fact, we kind of talked about the positives in what we have done as a government in terms of broadband. A lot of the rural areas have been covered by broadband now, so that is not an issue. In fact, we use it as an attracting tool, quite frankly, to say that we have broadband to a number of areas throughout the Province, not only urban but rural as well.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Are there any transportation concerns that exist, vis-à-vis rural Newfoundland as to why they might not come here?

MR. ORAM: No. In fact, there were probably some positives in terms of rural Newfoundland and Labrador. We have some good port facilities that are out in rural areas. We have some airports that are in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. Goose Bay is a great example of companies that are looking at relocating or expanding their business into Goose Bay. Therefore, we are not seeing the transportation issue at all at this point.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: In terms of meeting potential clients and so on to come here – obviously, I guess, there are trade shows that you participate in and stuff like that. What exactly – maybe generally, give us some explanation of what you do to expose yourselves to the world?

MR. ORAM: Whenever I get an opportunity to speak or to have speaking engagements, I do that wherever it may be. That gives jurisdictions an idea of what we do and what we have to offer in Newfoundland and Labrador. For instance, the Farnborough Air Show. There was an air show in Abu Dhabi just a little while ago when we went there with Provincial Air to help with their announcement. Wherever I go like that it gives me the opportunity to meet with people. Whatever opportunity that I can get to speak or whatever opportunity I can get to travel, to meet with different folks in bigger venues, I do that and promote the Province as a place to do business.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Anything we do to the marketing aspects of the Province, other than visitations like that. We of course have our logo. What else do you do, other than go meet with a group?

MR. ORAM: We are getting ready now to unveil a new campaign that will target different newspapers; that will target business magazines. We looked at the airlines and maybe there might be some opportunity there. Again, we have been ramping this up, trying to get to where we need to be and printed material is what we are trying to promote as well through a different media. At this point we have not really focused on the media until now. We are getting ready to roll that out in the next little while.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

I will ask the Clerk to call the subheads.

CLERK: 1.1.01 to 2.1.03 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 to 2.1.03 inclusive carry?

All those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Department of Business, total heads, carried

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Business carried without amendment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

Motion, that the Committee report having passed the Estimates without amendments, carried.

CHAIR: Just before we clue up, if I could have a motion to adopt the minutes from the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation Resource Committee from last evening?

Moved by Mr. Baker, seconded by Mr. Dalley.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I guess I will thank the people from the department, Minister, and your staff for coming, and I certainly thank committee members.

Without further ado, I will call for a motion to adjourn.

So moved. Do we have a seconder?

Thank you very much.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.