Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands, substitutes for Jim Bennett, MHA for St. Barbe.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Christopher Mitchelmore, MHA for The Straits – White Bay North, substitutes for Lorraine Michael, MHA for Signal Hill – Quidi Vidi.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Brazil): Okay, ladies and gentlemen, if I could have your attention. I want to welcome everybody to the Estimates hearings for the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

First, to do some housekeeping, I want to note that Mr. Eddie Joyce will be replacing Mr. Jim Bennett, and Mr. Christopher Mitchelmore will be replacing Ms Lorraine Michael. That is part of that.

Could I have a nomination for Vice-Chair?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Mr. Eddie Joyce.

CHAIR: Eddie Joyce has been nominated.

Any other nominees?

All those in favour, signify by saying ‘aye'.

CLERK (Ms Hammond): You need a seconder.

Okay, sorry, we do need a seconder for that.

MS PERRY: I will second it.

CHAIR: Seconded by the Member for Fortune Bay – Cape La Hune.

All those in favour, signify by saying ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Opposed?

Mr. Joyce is the Vice-Chair.

On motion, Mr. Joyce was elected Vice-Chair pro tem.

I would like to first start, before we do introductions, by having a motion to adopt the minutes of the Resource Committee meeting for the Department of Environment and Conservation which was held on April 18.

A motion to adopt the minutes?

MR. JOYCE: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Joyce.

I am going to ask the Page to distribute the minutes, please.

I will call that all in favour of adopting the minutes signify by saying ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Opposed?

Minutes carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I would like to start by welcoming everybody, particularly the minister, his staff, and the Committee members themselves.

I would ask the Committee members and the staff with the members to introduce themselves. Then I will ask the minister to introduce himself and his staff.

I do ask, when a question is asked - and, Minister, if you pass it to one of your staff - that they identify themselves and wait until the light comes on. It will take a couple of minutes for the flow to go so that the Broadcast Centre is comfortable with the individual coming up. They will get the light on as quickly as possible.

We will start.

Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: I do not know if the minister wants to have a few words. He usually does.

CHAIR: No, I am just asking you to introduce yourself.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands – sorry.

MR. LETTO: Graham Letto, Researcher.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Christopher Mitchelmore, MHA for The Straits – White Bay North.

MS WILLIAMS: Susan Williams, Researcher.

MS PERRY: Tracey Perry, MHA.

MR. POLLARD: Kevin Pollard, Baie Verte – Springdale MHA.

MR. CROSS: Eli Cross, Bonavista North MHA.

CHAIR: Minister.

MR. FRENCH: Terry French, Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation. To my left is Judith Hearn, Deputy Minister; Mark Jones, Assistant Deputy Minister for Culture and Recreation; and Carmela Murphy, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister of Tourism. It is her first day on the job so she is taking all the questions today. Behind me is Barry Petten, Executive Assistant; Denise Hanrahan, Departmental Controller; and Jason Card, Director of Communications.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Before I turn it over to you to do sort of an interlude, an overview of the department's budget this year, I will note that the process I will use is that I will give each speaker twelve to fifteen minutes so that we can have some continuity going back and forth.

If you are close to the end of a section, at the end of each section I will call for a motion to adopt that section. If you only have a question or so left, I will ask. If you do, you can continue, or if you would like to turn it to the other speaker.

Mr. Minister, the floor is yours.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you very much.

Thanks to the Committee for coming out, of course. As always, we will go through this process. A lot of the line-by-line stuff will probably be done by a lot of the staff, but certainly I will take most of the questions as need be throughout the process here.

There are three areas that have gotten the most attention from the efficiencies we found through this Budget process. Tourism Marketing was taken back by about $4 million, from $13 million to about $9 million. Since 2006, we have invested $94 million in Tourism Marketing, which is no small chunk of change. We are still significantly ahead of some other provinces throughout the country. Obviously, when we had to find efficiencies that is where we found $4 million of it. That is not to say that $4 million is going to be gone forever. In this year in particular, we were in such a Budget crunch that is where we found the largest piece of the efficiency.

The other place was The Rooms. The Rooms had about a $7 million budget. This year they have about a $6 million. The Rooms had eighty-eight staff working previous to this Budget process, seventy full-time and eighteen part-time; they now have fifty-seven full-time and eighteen part-time. Just let me say on that, speaking personally and I know speaking from all of us in government, there is nobody who is not affected by some of these job reductions. I, personally, have family, friends, and so on that are affected, and many of us are. There is certainly no glory in making these decisions sometimes, but unfortunately that is the way it is.

The other piece, of course, is Stephenville training centre. The Stephenville training centre is a facility that costs us between $200,000 and $300,000 a year. Stephenville training centre stopped being a provincial training centre about twelve or fifteen years ago. Right now what you have in Stephenville is a municipal or regional recreation facility, which I am totally delighted they have, by the way. Obviously, we promote it. We have invested $172 million since 2006 in the recreation infrastructure. So obviously we do not want to see places close up, but there comes a time when governments cannot provide staffing and programming for certain municipalities in the Province.

For example, I know my own municipality and I know there is not a municipality in the Province that would not love to have government running a recreation facility, staffing it and paying for it. So it is a little unfair to those we do not do it for, plus the fact that now recreation should be provided by the municipality or the region it is in, as they do in Mount Pearl, as they do in CBS, as they do in St. Anthony, and as they do in many other places throughout the Province.

These are the three that I wanted to touch on because I know these are the most sensitive. Certainly there has been the most pushback publicly on it. I want to lay it out for you and some of the rationale for why we went that way.

That is all I have to say, but feel free, open the floor and let her go.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I am going to ask the Clerk now to call the first heading and then I will get into Mr. Joyce right after that.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Mr. Joyce, for the first heading.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you very much.

Thank you, Minister and all the officials, for showing up today and answering our questions. Minister, I am going to go through some of the line items first and general discussions on things that you just brought up later.

In 1.2.01.01, Salaries, last year it was budgeted for $612,000. It went up to $883,000. It is back to $623,000. Why the big increase there last year?

MR. FRENCH: There is a $270,000 difference. We had two people retire who have had long-term service. One was a departmental secretary, Mary Pretty. You probably know her. Of course, the other one was Jimmy Tee. Both of them had been in the government for a long, long time. Both of them incurred the $270,000 if I am correct.

Sorry, Rick Hayward was the deputy minister. Rick Hayward was the big chunk there.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. So Jimmy Tee is still working?

MR. FRENCH: No, Jimmy is retired.

MR. JOYCE: Jimmy is retired, okay.

1.2.04, last year in Professional Services, $7,500; there was no money allocated but it went up to $7,500.

MR. FRENCH: 1.2.04, yes. Where to there?

MR. JOYCE: There was nothing budgeted and it went up to $7,500, 05 under 1.2.04, Professional Services.

MR. FRENCH: There was a land appraisal done in Cupids for the land we are in the process of purchasing for the site over there.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

06, the budgeted was $200,000 for Purchased Services; you only spent $1,800, but it is back up to $197,000 this year.

MR. FRENCH: We are redoing some work on the Argentia VIC.

MR. JOYCE: Pardon me?

MR. FRENCH: Argentia, the Visitor Information Centre, and it just never got spent. It never got all out the door, so that is why it is back again this year. It is for renovations.

MR. JOYCE: Renovations; okay.

In Property, Furnishings and Equipment, there was $250,000 budgeted and the revised was $42,000, but it is back up to $250,000 again.

MR. FRENCH: Again, that goes back to Cupids. This has been on the books now for about three or four years and it is rolled over constantly because there is some debate obviously going on between the owner of the land and the expropriation of it.

MR. JOYCE: Is this money to buy the land?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. FRENCH: The first $7,500 was for the appraisal and this is for the purchase.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

In Grants and Subsidies, there was budgeted $9,459,500 and there was $5 million when it was revised, but it is back up to $9,506,700.

MR. FRENCH: That is the Colonial Building. It is the work on the Colonial Building. We give the grant to The Rooms and The Rooms spends it. Again, it never got out the door. This is why it is back to where it was previous years; continual things, $22 million or $23 million projects, so every year there is capital that flows through our department.

MR. JOYCE: This is part of the Colonial Building, again. It looks different until you explain it.

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, 2.1.01, Tourism Marketing, 05, Professional Services, there was $255,000 allocated, $126,000 revised, but it is back up to $233,000.

MS HEARN: This is just a piece that will vary from year to year on Professional Services contracts. In this year we found some efficiencies in Professional Services, but the money is back in for the following year because Professional Services, when it comes to tourism marketing, varies from year to year.

MR. JOYCE: What type of services, may I ask?

MS HEARN: Oh, yes, of course, it is the tourism research. We just did a big piece on our tourism research exit survey. This year we would have been getting the results out. Next year we will be starting research again. So you can see from year to year the research costs will change.

MR. JOYCE: 06. Purchased Services; it was $12,190,000, it went to $12,040,000, and this year it is $8,253,900. Is this the $4 million cut?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is the reduction to the marketing budget.

MR. JOYCE: Before this decision was made, was there any risk and what impact would it be? I stood up in the House and praised up the marketing. I thought it was great, the program, the ads, and the marketing. I just thought it was great. It was the best I ever saw. Was there any analysis on the potential impact before the cut was made?

MR. FRENCH: Well, first of all, we had to find savings. We looked through government and we had to find places. Tourism Marketing is an area that has grown significantly over the last number of years. Since 2006, like I said, we invested $94 million in that area alone. So we decided this year we would take $4 million out of that. We currently have sixteen chapters, as we like to call them, or ads done that are playing at various rates. I think the last eight or nine are currently in the market.

The idea of it is to reduce it this year, knowing full well we still have these amounts of ads in the can. We have to get together now. What is happening now is our marketing team in the department is sitting down with Target Marketing and coming up with a marketing plan based on $9 million instead of based on $13 million.

We are still in the market significant; $9 million is not a bad chunk. We are still ahead of places like Manitoba and Saskatchewan in our marketing budgets, and Prince Edward Island. We have not dropped off the table. It is not meant to be a permanent thing; it is certainly meant to be a temporary thing.

Now, whether we develop with that $9 million – for example, the Torngat ad cost $1 million. A lot of the other ones have cost $500,000. It varies, depending on which one you look at. The big thing here is that we do not lose momentum, and we are conscious of that. So now the marketing team has to come up with a plan.

Of course, another big marketing venue for us now is online marketing. In 2007 or 2008, online marketing was costing us about $200,000 or $300,000 a year; now it is $1 million a year. That is another area we have.

MR. JOYCE: Before that money was cut, was there any consultation with the industry or was it just the decision had to be made within the department at the time?

MR. FRENCH: No, it was a budgetary decision, a straight budgetary decision. There was no consultation on how big the marketing budget would be for the next particular year. No, there was not.

Now, having said that, we have a Tourism Board that I have met with, and they are now putting together proposals of some of the things they would like to see coming forward. Obviously, no one liked a $9 million cut. It would be foolish for me to say any different. Everybody was like, oh my God, you are not going to cut us; and, of course, everybody who loses money who relies on government feels the same way. It was a tough decision to make, but one that we have had to make. Like I said, hopefully it will not be for too long.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

Subhead 2.1.02, Salaries: They go from $2,084,000 in the budget, and the revised was $2,107,000. This year it is down to $1,686,000. How many people were given their layoffs from the department?

MR. FRENCH: There were thirty-three people in total, thirty-three positions. Thirteen of them were from The Rooms, overall throughout the whole department. That is twenty people within the department, thirteen at The Rooms.

MR. JOYCE: The Corner Brook office: Is that going to remain open?

MR. FRENCH: The what?

MR. JOYCE: The Corner Brook office.

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: With one staff or is it –

MR. FRENCH: One. There were two IDOs there and there is now going to be one.

MR. JOYCE: Yes. When this person retires at the end of the month, it is just going to stay with one?

MR. FRENCH: Right.

MR. JOYCE: Is that a bit of a downgrade for the Western Region?

MR. FRENCH: We still invest significantly from a tourism perspective right across the Province, whether it is through season extension stuff in that region. We do a big piece there in the winter, as you are aware of certainly.

MR. JOYCE: Do what in the winter?

MR. FRENCH: I said a big piece we do there in the winter through that big festival that they have. I am trying to remember the name of it now. You can tell me; I know it is right off the top of your head. It is a winter festival in Corner Brook.

MR. JOYCE: Oh, the winter carnival.

MR. FRENCH: Snow West, is it? Snow West for that region of the Province. We are still investing significantly. You are right, the IDO is going to be busier, no doubt, and we had to find –

MR. JOYCE: Is there any support staff with that?

MR. FRENCH: No, the support staff we have there now is the Western DMO. The Western DMO is something that we started, as you know, a few years back now and we fund them. We give them funding for their salaries of $150,000 a year, plus they get into other pieces of work that we do through product development and so on, other small amounts of money.

They are doing a great piece of work now whereby we have allowed them to generate their own revenues from advertising online, so they can have their own page and sell it to various – we are hoping that the DMO is going to pick up a lot of the work that was done by two.

MR. JOYCE: The what?

MR. FRENCH: The Destination Management Organization.

MR. JOYCE: How many people are on that out in the Western Region, the Corner Brook region?

MR. FRENCH: On the DMO staff?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: I would say they probably have three. Do you have any idea, Carmela, how many staff they have at Western DMO?

MS MURPHY: They do have three.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Out of this decrease in Salaries, is that the two or three people from the West Coast Training Centre also?

MR. FRENCH: No, there is a closure of the VIC in North Sydney and we have also eliminated three positions, a Clerk Typist and the two IDOs, one in St. John's – do you want to fill me in on this, Judith, where those three positions –

MR. JOYCE: How about the staff that was from the West Coast Training Centre? Is that under Tourism?

MR. FRENCH: No.

MR. JOYCE: That is under Transportation and Works?

MR. FRENCH: No, that is coming. That is in Recreation.

MR. JOYCE: So, this is just part of the layoffs here?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, part of the twenty.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Line 10, Grants and Subsidies: It went down to $301,000, the budget and the revised, and this year it is up to $4,621,000.

MR. FRENCH: That is the Convention Centre. Again, that is where the capital for the Convention Centre flows in through here and goes to the Convention Centre.

MR. JOYCE: How much for the Convention Centre out of that? Will it still stay at $301,000 for Grants and Subsidies?

MR. FRENCH: Yes; $4 million is for the Convention Centre.

MR. JOYCE: So Grants and Subsidies will it increase over $300,000?

MR. FRENCH: Say that again, please.

MR. JOYCE: The Grants and Subsidies for the budget in 2012-2013 was $301,000, the revised was $301,000, and if $4 million went to the Convention Centre that means there is $621,000 for other grants and –

MR. FRENCH: Actually, it is $4.4 million for the Convention Centre.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, $4.4 million.

The Grants and Subsidies this year has dropped a bit.

MR. FRENCH: Judith, do you want to respond to that?

MS HEARN: Yes, it has dropped a little bit, but we have seen some money move from section to section so you will see the $4.4 million commitment to the St. John's Convention Centre and you will see that there are other funds that are picked up in other sections of the budget, so this is Strategic Product Development. East Coast Trails was funded out of this portion of the budget. It is now being funded under the marketing side of the budget, so there has been a little bit of shifting there, but roughly the same pieces are being funded as last year. The big significant change is (inaudible) –

MR. JOYCE: Minister, the Grants and Subsidies, the smaller grants help out, they do show benefits.

MR. FRENCH: When we get into the Recreation piece, you will see they have not changed one bit.

MR. JOYCE: Even the small – I am assuming these here are the capital grants? I have seen some positive benefits from the capital grants also.

MR. FRENCH: Oh yes, me too.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, I will call –

CHAIR: Yes, if you have completed that section, well you are almost at the end of it –

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

CHAIR: – I will go back to Mr. Mitchelmore. Are you good on that part of Tourism?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, right now I am.

CHAIR: Okay, perfect.

Mr. Mitchelmore, I will go to you on subhead 1.1.01 to start, please.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, great. Thanks, Minister French for yourself and your staff here to answer questions on the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

Before I get into the section of 1.1.01, I just wanted to ask about the overall cuts, because the Salary Details lists 106 permanent employees, and the last public report that was put forward on the organization for 2011-2012 listed 147 permanent employees. So that accounts for a loss of about one-third of the department staff in the past two years. Is there an explanation for that?

MR. FRENCH: No, just for the efficiencies this time, there were twenty positions or the equivalent of twenty positions cut from the department. Most of them – well, I guess right throughout the Province. Then another thirteen were taken from The Rooms. So it is actually thirty-three positions in total in this coming year, less than the previous year. There is no specific reason, other than we have grown as a department previous to that. So, this is where we tried to find efficiencies.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Where were the other twenty-one cuts then beyond the twenty that you are identifying in this year's budget?

MR. FRENCH: The other twenty-one?

MR. MITCHELMORE: In 2011-2012, there were 147 staff and now there is only 106 permanent staff, so there are forty-one positions actually been cut.

MR. FRENCH: No, not through this – unless your part-timers are involved in that somehow, the part-time people, because we have a number of part-time people, for example. Let us take the Arts and Culture Centres, for example. So all our lighting people, ushers, we have a significant amount of part-time people who do that kind of work, so they are on a call-in basis. That number fluctuates from time to time.

I remember one place has like eighteen on a temporary list and all they are is ushers for the Arts and Culture Centre, but that rolls freely. Obviously, the more part-timers we have, the easier it is to get people, depending on the demand for the shows and so on.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Do you have a number for your anticipated total staff complement for the upcoming year, beyond the permanent staff, which would include the part-time, the contractual employees, and seasonal employees in total?

MR. FRENCH: I am sure we can get you that. That is, I think, 369. Judith is laying it in front of me.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Three hundred and sixty-nine?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. MITCHELMORE: I would certainly like a copy of that.

On the line item of 1.1.01, the Minister's Office here, the budgetary line, what was revised, was $375,400. What accounts for this increase of $110,000 in staff last year? Were there additional people hired beyond what was budgeted?

MR. FRENCH: That was for the minister's secretary. That was straight her severance pay.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Severance pay?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, for the minister's secretary.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

Under 1.2.03, under the Strategic Planning and Policy, I would like to ask what in-house planning or policy research is happening for the upcoming year? There are a significant amount of salaries put forward, and it talks about the strategies that the department is basically going to be taking place. So can you give us some information on that?

MR. FRENCH: Can you give us that subhead again?

MR. MITCHELMORE: That is 1.2.03, Strategic Planning and Policy, "Appropriations provide for planning and research activities that ensure the continued and coordinated development of culture, recreation and tourism within the Province."

MR. FRENCH: Do you want to take that, Judith?

MS HEARN: Yes, this is, really, the strategic policy and planning for the entire department. So there is a director of policy and planning, and then there is an ATIPP coordinator, as well as our front desk reception, our registrar, and one Policy Analyst. These people help run the entire department and will be engaged in our annual planning and our three-year strategic planning exercise, as well, of course, as all ATIPP pieces, and working with the individual divisions on pieces of policy work.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

Would they be involved in the Uncommon Potential strategy of increasing tourism to $1.6 billion by 2020?

MS HEARN: They do not work immediately with the Tourism Board. It is the Marketing Division, the Tourism Research Division, and the Strategic Product Development division that work directly with the Tourism Board.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Under what section, then, would appropriations be made for the Tourism Board for that particular piece? Is that somewhere here in the Estimates?

MR. FRENCH: Yes. Do you mean the amount of money we give to the Tourism Board?

MR. MITCHELMORE: For the allocation of resources dedicated.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, it is the same as it was the previous year.

Carmela, what section would that fall under?

MS MURPHY: It falls under Tourism Marketing and it is included in Purchased Services, line 06. The budget for Purchased Services, the $8.253 million, includes all marketing programs and it also includes industry support. One of those programs is the Tourism Board.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay. Thank you for that.

You had listed $1.204 million to Mr. Joyce around the Grants and Subsidies. Is all of that allocation for the Colonial Building, the $9.5 million, or are there other projects that will be provided for the capital assets in the coming year?

MR. FRENCH: I am pretty sure that is all. It goes to The Rooms for the Colonial Building.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

Is there an explanation why only $5 million was spent of a $9.4 million budget?

MR. FRENCH: The only thing is it just never got out through tendering processes and so on. Sometimes it takes longer and you go past the calendar year. Right now, for example, on the Colonial Building they are doing the electrical, plumbing, and that sort of thing, and it is not completed yet. I know they have a good shove on so that could be one of the reasons, for example, the contract has not been fully paid out, because work is still in progress.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Right. I guess, then, the Colonial Building is going to be delayed before it will actually be the restoration process.

MR. FRENCH: No, the goal was 2015 and it is still 2015.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

MR. FRENCH: Hopefully we can have the Throne Speech in 2015 at the Colonial Building.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Would the provincial heritage organization still have a space in the Colonial Building?

MR. FRENCH: I think before it was the Provincial Archives it had offices in the basement of the facility. That is still the plan. If I have this right, Mark, isn't it our Provincial Historic Sites offices as well will be there?

I want to be frank with you; I am trying to make sure that we are not using interpretive space for offices. That is one of the areas. I want to keep the areas, the chambers, and the library, for example, the original library, as it was for interpretive reasons rather than have it as offices. At first, there was some discussion about that, but I am for leaning to keep it as much interpretative as we possibly can because obviously it is a significant piece of our history from my perspective.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Was federal funding pursued in this?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, under the Building Canada Fund, we got about $8 million and change for that. As well, under Canadian Heritage, we got about $650,000, I think, if I stand corrected. We, the Province, put in about $13.2 million or $13.3 million. That is the break out of the $22.25 million.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Have the previous federal dollars been expended, and that is why it is not showing up as revenue in your departmental Estimates?

MR. FRENCH: That is a good question. Judith?

MS HEARN: The revenue is receded in the Department of Transportation and Works.

MR. MITCHELMORE: So that goes through Transportation and Works. Okay.

When it comes to your Tourism Marketing, the decrease, which is quite a significant amount, the $4 million, under Purchased Services, is it possible to get a breakdown of the funds that are allocated to all of the marketing initiatives? As was stated by Ms Murphy previously, the Tourism Board gets so much of this money. So much of this money is going towards making ads. So much is used towards buying ad shares.

Can we have a breakdown of how this money was divided between the organizations for 2012-2013?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, is the quick answer, but the biggest chunk of that goes to Target Marketing. They do our media buys for us. They come up with the creative pieces. Target Marketing pitches the government, and we go yea or nay, our marketing department does. Then from there we are billed appropriately based on staffing hours and so on.

They make a pitch to us and say at $12 million here is the plan and at $9 million here is the plan. Basically they do the buys and we pay them. They are the team that, along with our marketing team, does the buys and decides which markets we should and should not go in based on the statistics we have. So the majority of that goes to Target Marketing for their work.

MR. MITCHELMORE: So they do the newspapers buys; they do the television ads, the Air Canada ads, and et cetera?

MR. FRENCH: Correct.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Is there an update then as to the reduction of ad space that you are going to be able to buy with $4 million less?

MR. FRENCH: Not yet, because we are still working the plan. Remember now, last year's money was only in the market this January; because that is our peak time, from the end of January to May or late April. That is our peak time. The plan for next year has not been developed yet, but we will, over this year, have a plan for the $8 million versus the $12 million last year. That plan has not been developed yet.

Whether we buy time on airplanes, or how much time we have on TV, or whether we buy ads in The Globe and Mail for example, that is yet to be determined. Our marketing team will sit down with Target now and try to find the best way, the best bang for our buck.

To be frank about it, we have been fighting above our weight now for the last number of years. Even at $13 million, we have been punching above our weight because we are getting all these nice articles and stuff written about us. We target certain areas; we bring in travel writers and that sort of thing. We are going to continue to do all that.

MR. MITCHELMORE: How much money was given to Target Marketing last year to do the service that they did in 2012-2013 of this $12 million?

MR. FRENCH: I do not have the exact number. Carmela, would you have the exact number or do you want to give it to him later? Do you have the exact number?

MS MURPHY: We can certainly get that information. What I can say is that we spent about $7 million last year on advertising. That includes a host of services and projects. As the minister said, that includes creative development, media buying and planning, as well as all campaigns and expenses related to it.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

Under the Grants and Subsidies, can you provide us with a list? What would actually fall under this? There is $1.1 million that was spent last year. What types of initiatives were undertaken under Grants and Subsidies, under the Tourism Marketing, line 10.

MR. FRENCH: They are the East Coast Trail, Marble Mountain, and Destination Labrador as well. One hundred and fifty thousand dollars went to Destination Labrador.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay. You are saying that these things are not going to fall under – like the East Coast Trail, based on past discussion, that is going to be reallocated somewhere else in terms of marketing, based on questions Mr. Joyce had posed?

MR. FRENCH: Judith?

MS HEARN: Yes, this is where East Coast Trails is being funded going forward. It had been funded out of Strategic Product Development; it is being funded out of marketing, as well as the operating budget for Marble Mountain and the capital budget for Marble Mountain.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Previously, were all of those under the Strategic Product Development like Marble Mountain, East Coast? Or it was just the East Coast Trail that was under Strategic Product Development and now they are being moved to Tourism Marketing because the product is developed I guess?

MS HEARN: Right.

MR. MITCHELMORE: So then that means that somebody else is not receiving the funds. There are some organizations or some entities that are being cut back, whether it is Marble Mountain, whether it is the Destination Labrador. What is actually being cut in this year's Estimates for the Grants and Subsidies section?

MS HEARN: Yes, you will see some cut to the Marble operating budget, as well as to the capital budget. That is the largest cut that is there; $50,000 to the capital budget, and I believe it is $4,000 to the operating.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

Under the section 2.1.02, the Grants and Subsidies that were provided, what was the amount of $301,000 that was budgeted and revised, what was that actually spent on?

Were these the funds for the East Coast Trail, and what else, I guess, because you said there was $150,000 for the East Coast Trail, there would have been $151,000 for another entity?

MR. FRENCH: It is $100,000 for the East Coast Trail.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, so there is $201,000 for some other organizations.

MS HEARN: That includes grants for Visitor Information Centres, which are about $136,000 a year, and a grant to the Grand Concourse.

MR. MITCHELMORE: For the Grand Concourse?

MS HEARN: Yes.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

I just want to go back to 2.1.01, Tourism Marketing, and ask the minister what the rationale was behind cutting nearly $4 million from Tourism Marketing, given that the industry has been promoted as having a billion dollars and there is an initiative of going to $1.6 billion.

We get most of our revenue from residential travel. About 55 per cent of that comes from residential travel. We really need to look at increasing the high-yield international tourist that is spending a lot more money, increasing that air piece. So, it boggles my mind to see that this amount of money has been cut from a marketing budget.

MR. FRENCH: The fact that you are interprovincial tourism, that is common right throughout North America. That is not something that is abnormal to Newfoundland. Fifty-five per cent of in-province tourism is not a bad number at all. Like I said, that is the rationale. That is the norm, if you will.

The reason we cut the Tourism budget is we had to find efficiencies in government. We had a $13 million marketing budget. We had to find efficiencies. We went to $9 million. Like I mentioned earlier, we have invested $94 million since 2006, since the Find Yourself campaign started. We are on pace to reach the $1.6 billion by 2020. That is our goal; that remains our goal.

It is not meant to be permanent. As monies flow, as monies improve, and as our financial position improves in the Province, I have every reason to believe the marketing budget will also improve. It is one of those things. Like I said, we had sixteen chapters that we have developed, great ads as everybody throughout the world sends me nice, glowing letters about them.

Again, we do not know where we are going with the $9 million. We are still in the market better than places like Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Prince Edward Island. We have not fallen off the cliff. We have not stopped marketing, which would be a tragedy, certainly.

At $9 million, no, it is not as much as $13 million, but we still believe we can make in impact into the marketplace. We very much have to target our markets at that amount of money, as most people do in Canada, for example. It would be absolutely pointless right now for us, for example, to market in Europe. The only way it would make sense for us to market in Europe right now is with the Atlantic Canada Tourism Partnership, which is we market in Europe and the US markets with our colleagues from Atlantic Canada. I think it works out to all the provinces put in money and then the feds give us 50 per cent or 30 per cent of that, I am not quite sure. Anyway, we partner with ACOA and we market into these areas as a group.

If we had to go out, for example, let us take the London Times, and buy a page in the London Times, it would be insane. We would blow $13 million and it would be like spitting in the wind. They would not even know who you were. There is a rationale behind targeting certain areas of the Province. It would be great, obviously. India, for example, have 150 million people planning on leaving there as tourists. The reality of it is most of these places and most of that market would go to Toronto and Vancouver.

Now, it is not that we do not want to get our share one of these days, but we are still developing very much in the Ontario market or in the Alberta market. These are the markets that we have been concentrating on right now. When we go abroad we market with our friends in Atlantic Canada.

CHAIR: Excuse me, Mr. Mitchelmore; do you have much left on this section?

MR. MITCHELMORE: I have a few more questions, but if Mr. Joyce has some….

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: No, go ahead and finish that section. No rush.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, great.

MR. JOYCE: If you do not mind, Mr. Chair, I have no problem.

CHAIR: No, that is fine, as long as you are okay with the time allotment.

MR. JOYCE: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Fair enough.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Thank you, Mr. Joyce. I appreciate that.

I want to know if there was an analysis done by the department on its tourism marketing as to the value for dollar that it gets. For each dollar that is expended through the Find Yourself campaign, what is the return on investment?

MR. FRENCH: I do not have that number. I do not have a number for that, but I know there has been work done actually. At the Tourism Board they mentioned some figures to me recently about pieces of work they have done, or have access to, about the amount of investment you get from marketing versus the return on investment.

Like I said, again we went from $13 million to $9 million, fair enough. Do we change our creative piece and market with what we currently have? Do we do more creative stuff? The whole plan is yet to be developed. What the outcomes will be, we will find out not next year but the year after.

MR. MITCHELMORE: You talked about ACOA and you talked about some of the funds that they are matching. Why are none of these funds showing up as potential revenue that the department is leveraging in its Estimates statements?

MR. FRENCH: The Atlantic Canada Tourism Partnership is money that we give out of our marketing budget. Carmela, is that correct?

MS MURPHY: Yes, it is a cost-shared program. It operates a little different than perhaps some that you might be familiar with where revenue comes back.

It is a $19.55 million agreement. The federal government contributes 50 per cent over three years, and each of the provinces contributes an amount of money. Industry contributes in kind. There is the secretariat that bills all the partners their share. It is not actually a revenue line that shows up. Do you know what I mean? The money does not come back into the budget as a revenue line.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay. Does the directional signage fall under marketing, or is that under the product development piece?

MR. FRENCH: I think that is under product development.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay. I will ask that question, is that the Strategic Product Development?

Okay, I want to know what the status is on the directional signage. I guess the department years ago had started this initiative to standardize signs. It certainly seems like it is something that has not been followed.

Some people had signs cut down. Throughout the whole process it does not seem like there is much clarity as to what is really happening with the standardization of the signs. Can you give us an update as to what is happening?

MR. FRENCH: Sure.

The TODS program is in place in the Province and it is rolling out. We did do two areas in the Province, full on, if you will. Deer Lake to Wiltondale I believe was one area, and the other area was down on the Bonavista Peninsula. We invested it; we rolled out the full TODS program. Then we gave it a year to find out exactly what the spinout would be.

Having said that, the next year we bought the larger signs going across the Island, which I am sure you have seen, in the Clarenville area there are two that jump out at me every time I pass it. We are rolling it out.

Right now, for example, in the areas you can still get a permit to put up a sign, but it is very clear on your letter that this could happen any day at all. I think you get a year. If you purchase a sign now it has to follow the criteria of TODS, but you can put up your own. Eventually as we roll out across the Province we will have TODS where you will see the fork, knife, the plate, and the name by it.

It will happen eventually. It is slow moving. We are still getting buy in from the industry. I think if you talk to the people in Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador they are all go for it. In certain areas of the Province, I know the Grand Falls area, a central area, are big on it. We will get there. We will take some time.

It is funny how things go. I joked with a fellow there a while back. He said he was still driving down the road in his camper van listening to his eight-track radio. We have gone from signage now, but everything is going GPS.

One of the things that I have talked about a bit in the department now is coming up with new GPS co-ordinates so you plug in. The signage days are almost gone, believe it or not. Obviously, we will always have signage, but you are trying to advance other directional modes now. That is kind of where we are, but now again, the TODS process will happen.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, great. Thanks for that update.

I am just going back to the Atlantic Canadian Tourism Partnership. You talked about the contribution that was being provided. What is the benefit of this? Are there future plans pertaining to the specific investment?

MR. FRENCH: We just signed on for another three years with our partners. Their goal is to get in the European market and, I think, the Eastern US. That is the kind of a market that we all want to try to penetrate in some way, shape, or form.

The strategy is that we go into these marketplaces and we buy together as one with that $19 million I think that Carmela just mentioned. That is the plan to try to develop, to get people to come to Atlantic Canada and then we get our chunk of that.

The best way I could describe it is if we bought a page ad, we would have a quarter of it. The page would be Atlantic Canada and we would get our piece of it. That has been the strategy over the last – I guess this is the second agreement or the third, Carmela, ACTP or longer?

MS MURPHY: The agreement has been in existence since 1991. This is the eighth or ninth iteration of this partnership. It is long standing. It is over twenty years.

MR. MITCHELMORE: The Department of Innovation, Business and Rural Development has an Air Access Strategy. Is there anything being done in partnership to look at creating access? That is one of the biggest inhibitors for people from Europe, especially coming to the Province, is lack of direct flights in places like Ireland and what not. What is the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation doing to try and ease the access of getting, especially those with culturally significant relations, to the Island and the Province to come and visit?

MR. FRENCH: I will ask Judith to comment on that. Before I do, my understanding of that is it is driven by the airline industry. The airlines would apply for specific routes.

It is not something that Tourism would necessarily – obviously we were consulted on the plan first when it was developed. It is more geared to the airline industry that wants to put on direct flights and to assist them in enabling them to do that.

I do not know if there is anything you can add to that Judith.

MS HEARN: No, only that Tourism, Culture and Recreation does work with IBRD, they confer with us. We certainly provide the tourism perspective on air access, although they do have the lead for the file.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Under the Strategic Product Development, Transportation and Communications, we are seeing a reduction of $35,000 in this year's Budget. How are these savings going to be? Is it primarily through transportation, reductions in staff travel to visit key areas?

MR. FRENCH: We send a significant amount of people throughout the country to different trade shows, various buying. The $35,000, specifically where it will come from, I do not think we have decided to cancel any places that we currently go. We want to stay in the market. I think it is just basic savings that we believe we can chisel off here, there, and everywhere. I do not think there is anywhere specific that we decided to cancel going, if that is what you mean.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Is there an allocation for the Assurance Program that Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador, through the department, is looking at initiating? Are there funds allocated under Product Development for this to create that level of standardization in the industry?

MR. FRENCH: As you know, we fund HNL as well. We give them a significant piece of money every year. I do not know if it is a specific piece to that. No, I do not think it is, not for the Assurance Plan itself. It is industry driven but we have been part of the consultation. We fund those positions there depending on the work.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Right. So they will be doing that in-house basically through their current funds? It should not cost additional dollars to bring forward that strategy?

MR. FRENCH: I do not know if it will cost extra funds, but it is certainly something that we believe in. I do not think it will cost extra funds because they are there now I think or pretty well there.

MR. MITCHELMORE: What is being done to extend the tourism seasons?

MR. FRENCH: I am glad you asked actually. Season extension is one of the things that I am a big believer in. As you know you have Trails, Tails & Tunes coming up now on the Northern Peninsula, and you have Roots, Rants and Roars in Elliston. These are things that I am a big believer in because I believe we have to get into the shoulder seasons.

Obviously, we protected that in the Budget process. That was something that was a personal thing I believe in, and I think our Marketing Division does as well. There is a certain amount of money that is set aside for those types of festivals to draw people to certain areas of the Province.

I think that is where our head is and that is what we have been doing over the last several years is try to get into the season extension. I think if you talk to most of the people out there in the industry now, they will tell you that their Octobers were like their old Septembers, and their Septembers were like their old August. It is working; we are getting outside into the shoulder seasons. It is a tough slog, but it seems to be working. Our numbers in the Aprils, Mays, Septembers and Octobers continue to grow which is a good sign.

MR. MITCHELMORE: I just have a couple of more questions for you under these sections. You made reference to the Destination Management Organizations. Will they be posting publications, annual reports of their activities as to what they did last year?

It seems that they are moving back towards the marketing piece because you had mentioned they are looking at generating revenue through their Web site by going to the industry and doing promotion. Is that counterproductive on some levels to the newfoundlandandlabrador.com doing the advertising as well, almost like a double take from the industry?

MR. FRENCH: No, I think it complements it quite well actually. We work very closely with the various DMOs out there. We are all on the same page. We have the Tourism Board, which all the DMOs sit on, as well as industry players, as well as government. So it is driven from the ground up now, I believe, the tourism industry in this Province, and it is doing very, very, very well.

No, I do not think it takes away from it. It is a way for the DMOs to generate extra revenue for things they might want to do. They have their own Chair, their own board, and do their own thing. We provide them with a grant of $150,000 a year toward their salaries and then they raise money on their own through this – another way to raise general revenue. I also think they get money from IBRD as well, a small piece from IBRD, but that is project driven, I believe.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Since you brought up the tourism advisory board, I am wondering what they had done last year in terms of reviewing the tourism assets, the gaps that exist, what levels of private investment were leveraged? Will they be releasing, I guess, a report on some of these initiatives to your department? Who else sits on the advisory board? Is this public information?

MR. FRENCH: The Tourism Board?

MR. MITCHELMORE: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Oh, it is very much public. They are a separate entity. They are certainly not a government entity as such. They are a separate entity that we fund a position, a position and one-half or something, and they meet on a regular basis and they drive the industry. I know HNL sits on it, all DMOs sit on it, and we have departmental people sit on it. They are a separate entity all of their own. I think we as a government appoint the Chair.

Would you like to add anything to that, Carmela?

MS MURPHY: The minister is correct. The DMO Chairs sit there, and IBRD, the Deputy Minister of Tourism, the Assistant Deputy Minister, as well as ACOA officials and industry operators.

MR. MITCHELMORE: I guess there are a number of groups that receive funding through the Department of Tourism for market development, like the Heritage Cluster Pilot Project, the Shorefast, the Coaker Foundation, and Outfitters Association. There are a number of them throughout the Province. Are these groups at risk at losing their funding through the department, through significant cutback?

MR. FRENCH: I do not recall correctly but I know when we were going through the Budget process, it was one of the areas that we really concentrated on. For example, the heritage groups never lost five cents. These types of groups, the multitude of groups out there that are running small operations, doing great work on very little money, our little piece just adds to ways that they are able to generate their own revenue. No, we are very conscious over touching those pieces.

I just forget now, Mark, how many we fund under the heritage –

MR. JONES: About 120.

MR. FRENCH: About 120, and that will continue. There is no reduction in funding for those groups.

CHAIR: Excuse me, Mr. Mitchelmore. In the mode of fairness, I would like to go to Mr. Joyce there now. I can give you thirty seconds to conclude that section because I think Mr. Joyce wants to go into subheading 3.1.01.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Sure. I had one last question just on the commemoration board about the events that were taking place. Other than that, that would be it.

CHAIR: If you can ask that in thirty seconds and the minister answer in thirty seconds, and Mr. Joyce would agree.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Is there a status on what is happening there, on events this year?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, this year we were budgeted $367,000 to continue planning toward the big years coming up. That will increase, no doubt, over the next few years as we try to ramp up. We had a staff person on last year and this year we will have another staff person on.

Our goal with the commemorations and where the thinking is on it is that we want to find a way to get more students, more of our young people, involved but also more people at Beaumont-Hamel. I had the privilege of going there a couple of years ago representing government as happens every year, of course, and it is something to behold. If you ever get the opportunity to go for the July 1, the one thing that jumps out at you is that we do have young people there, but we do not have enough of them. Our whole goal is around that.

There is a whole education piece being developed as well for that five-year piece so we can narrow in – even though some of it is taught now in our school system, we can narrow in on groups of kids to do that. Of course, we will have a large contingent travelling to Beaumont-Hamel as well.

We are looking at finding ways to put another monument – originally it was one planned for Gallipoli that never, ever occurred. We are in the process now of working through the federal Department of National Defence and the Turkish government to find a way where we can put a monument there. What it will be who knows? They have numerous monuments, I am told. I have never been there, so I can hardly speak to it. Obviously, it would be significant.

It was in the planning originally to have another monument there, another caribou there, but it never did happen. That is something else we are working on as well with our federal colleagues. We are negotiating now with Turkey as we speak. Well, not as we speak, but certainly the conversation is ongoing. That is a big piece of work for us and one we are very interested in carrying out for obvious reasons.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Mitchelmore.

Before we move to Culture and Heritage, subsection 3.1.01, I am going to ask for an adoption of subsections 1.1.01 to 2.1.02.

Moved by the Member for Bay of Islands; seconded by the Member for Bonavista North.

All in favour, signify by saying ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Opposed, ‘nay'.

Motion carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 2.1.02 carried.

CHAIR: Okay, Mr. Joyce, we will move to subsection 3.1.01, Culture and Heritage.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, under that subsection, 01, Salaries, it looks like there have been no layoffs. The budget was $1,677,000, the revised was $1,699,000, and the Estimates for this year are $1,698,000. There have been no layoffs in that?

MR. FRENCH: No, correct.

MR. JOYCE: Why is that?

MR. FRENCH: From an arts perspective, we realize as a government – it has been one of the priorities of our government since we have started actually. We have taken an Arts Council that was floundering at about $800,000 a year to now it is over $2.2 million or $2.3 million a year.

The arts are a thing that we believe in as a government. You can go through it; the Newfoundland film corp, for example, did not lose any money, the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council did not lose any money, the heritage council, and all the sectorial organizations did not lose any money.

It was one of the things that we believed in. Even when we were involved in the Olympics, for example, we showcased our artists at the Olympics. It has kind of been a staple of this government. Plus we realize that the arts in particular generate quite a bit of revenue for small communities in rural Newfoundland.

You take Theatre Newfoundland and Labrador, for example, on the Northern Peninsula, and the revenue they generate. They work well with our tourism industry, too. I could list a number of cultural events that happen across the Province. One of the things is it makes us all feel good at home, but certainly it entertains our tourists, too, when they come here.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, 06, Purchased Services, the revised budget from last year was $157,800; this year it is $254,000.

MR. FRENCH: Do you want to take that Judith? It is the reduction you are referring to, is it?

MR. JOYCE: No, it is about the same actually.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: Last year the revised budget was only $157,000 when the original was $258,000. It is back up to $254,000 this year: Purchased Services, 06.

MR. FRENCH: We had a situation in the department where we had two vehicles with our Provincial Historic Sites and one of them was leased, costing us X amount of dollars – I forget what it was – and the other one I think the transmission gave out in it. By purchasing two new vehicles, we could actually save money in a year. So, that is what we did. We will save money because the lease on the vehicle – I cannot remember the exact amount, but it was high. By purchasing the vehicle, we were much better off.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Under Property, Furnishings and Equipment, the budget was $5,000, the revised went up to $37,000, but it is back down to $5,000 again, an increase of $32,000.

MR. FRENCH: Do you want to take that, Mark?

MR. JONES: That reflects the reallocation from other lines for the purchase of those vehicles.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, thank you.

In 3.1.02, Arts and Culture Centres, the Salaries were $2,591,700, the revised was $2,637,400 and this year the estimate is $2,377,900. Is that a decrease in part-time staff at the Arts and Culture Centres?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, actually the Arts and Culture Centres is a real interesting model because the busier they are, the more your salaries go up. It is very often hard to determine what is going to happen throughout the year, so you are generally off a little bit. We did make cuts at the Arts and Culture Centres based on the fact that we have three in the Province that are very low in rental nights.

In three of them, we put the managers to part-time instead of full-time. There is a Word Processing Operator, for example, a couple more that were made temporary – not temporary, part-time. Now, you have to remember that all the rest of the staff that operate out of the Arts and Culture Centres are part-time anyway because the lighting guys are called in or the sound guys, the ushers; they are all temporary staff.

The other thing we did in St. John's was we eliminated a full-time position, as well. We had a reduction in three of the centres from full-time to half-time. There were seven employees affected who went from full-time to part-time, in Grand Falls, Stephenville, and in Lab City. We eliminated one position in St. John's.

MR. JOYCE: Can we get a list of what reductions for what centres? Like I know in Lab West –

MR. FRENCH: No problem.

MR. JOYCE: I think there were reductions in Corner Brook also.

MR. FRENCH: No, no reductions Corner Brook.

MR. JOYCE: Can we get a copy of what reductions? Could you do a printout for us of what reductions?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

In 07, Minister, the budget for Property, Furnishings and Equipment was $40,000, the revised was $40,000, and this year it has gone up to $75,000.

MR. FRENCH: Judith.

MS HEARN: Yes, we had reduced the budget last year and we have put the money back in this year to cover various different needs of the Arts and Culture Centres. So it is actually restating where the budget had been in previous years.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

Subhead 3.1.04, The Rooms, line 10, Grants and Subsidies: There was a decrease last year of $1 million for the revised budget to this year.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is a reduction of $1.05 million reduction in The Rooms. One of the things they tried to do to find the savings, they tried to minimize the impact on people who were visiting the facility. Obviously that was a big concern of ours. They have significant numbers go through there every year.

That is why we took the positions, like I said, out front. We had seventy full-time and eighteen temporary; we now have fifty-seven full-time and eighteen temporary. We cut thirteen full-time positions in The Rooms. It is unfortunate.

As well, we are going to adjust the hours, and we are still working through that. Just to give you a quick example, all these other types of facilities across the country are usually closed for a piece of January or some other times throughout the year for renovations, cleaning, they do extensive cleaning, they put out new displays, or whatever the case may be. We are one of the few, I think, that does not shut down at all.

For example, it is a possibility we may shut down the first week of January, which is something we never did before, just to do extensive cleaning throughout the building. I just forget the name of the other facilities across the country that does the same. For example, that might happen. We currently are closed on Mondays anyway. Again, we want to minimize the impact on the people who visit the place, so that is our main goal.

MR. JOYCE: Was there any consultation before this was done, or was that just, again, a budgetary item that was done?

MR. FRENCH: No, that was a budgetary decision. We had to find money. We still give The Rooms a $6 million grant every year, so that is a significant piece of change as well.

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 3.1.06, Historic Sites Development, there was an increase last year of $22,000 for Supplies, 04.

MR. JONES: The nature of the business, Provincial Historic Sites, year to year, whether the money needs to be in Transportation and Communications, Supplies, or Purchased Services, it varies. The vote, however, remains the same.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The same thing, Minister, with Purchased Services; it was budgeted $65,000, it went down to $33,000, but it is back to $65,000. Is that the same? It just varies?

MR. FRENCH: The total budget is $100,000 whether it moves one section to the other.

MR. JOYCE: One or the other, yes.

Special Celebrations and Events, 3.1.07, you see the Salaries again. Is this the same type, that it varies? It is $121,200 and the revised was $68,000, but it is back up to $121,000 this year.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is part of the commemorations. There is a salary budgeted there for $121,000 from a previous employee that we kept, but we only staffed it up with one person because we are in the early stages of planning. I think you will see this year now we will probably bring on the second person.

MR. JOYCE: Oh, that is what that $100,000 increase is for, that second person?

MR. FRENCH: Right. Correct.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

You see here Professional Services under the same heading, Minister, 05. Last year there was nothing budgeted, the revised was $11,000, and this year it was $160,000.

MR. FRENCH: Again, that reflects the $367,000 we got in this year's Budget to start the World War I commemorations. That is where it is put, right there.

MR. JOYCE: Is all of that funding going to be used this year or is that to start in what way? The $161,000, Professional Services, is that to outside of the department?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, for example, right off the bat we are negotiating with Turkey right now, our federal counterparts are, to see where and what kind of a monument we can build. Our goal was to put a full-sized caribou. That is what we would ideally like to see, but because of the amount of commemoration plaques and so on that are in Turkey we do not know. That is a negotiation that goes on beyond us. Hopefully, if we have the staff, for example, getting a plaque done or a bronze cast done, we will take the money from there and start that process.

MR. JOYCE: Just a question: I know Veterans Affairs is under Municipal Affairs; why is Tourism doing this instead of Municipal Affairs?

MR. FRENCH: For whatever reason, we do kind of special events or special celebrations, if you will. World War I commemorations are seen as one of those types of events. It is a cultural thing. The Olympics was another thing that went through the department that we planned when I was there before. The JUNOs, for example, is another thing that went through our department that we helped plan with outside groups. This would be no different.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Purchased Services, the next headline, $92,000, is that for the same event? The budget last year was $75,000, it went down to $6,100, and this year it is $92,000.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, the same event.

MR. JOYCE: Is it for the same event?

MR. FRENCH: Yes. It is for planning toward it, yes.

MR. JOYCE: Grants and Subsidies, Minister, line 10?

MR. FRENCH: Again, it is the same thing. It is for First World War commemorations.

MR. JOYCE: Did I tell you the story of what I did over Easter?

MR. FRENCH: Pardon?

MR. JOYCE: Did I tell you the story of what I did over Easter? Do you have a minute?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, go ahead.

CHAIR: Go ahead, Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: We had medals in our family for eighty years. We were down and talked to our brother (inaudible), who was named after my grandmother's brother who died in the war. He was named after him. We were going to donate them to a museum or some Canadian Legion.

When we tracked it back we said, okay, we will donate it. Where are we going to do that? We looked at the side and got the number. We had to go to the British Embassy to see the number. When the number came back it was not his medal. It was another cousin of his who was from the same town.

We tracked down the family. I brought them down to California to an eighty-seven-year-old, an eighty-six-year-old, and an eighty-three-year-old daughter of the father who owned the medals.

MR. FRENCH: Go away, boy. What was he in? He was in the First World War?

MR. JOYCE: The First World War, yes. This person who owned the medals went to Nova Scotia and joined up because he was too young to join up here. He joined up in Nova Scotia.

MR. FRENCH: He is originally from Newfoundland, though, your father was?

MR. JOYCE: Originally from Newfoundland, yes.

MR. FRENCH: Wow.

MR. JOYCE: He crossed on the boat to join up. He was too young.

MR. FRENCH: How did they end up with the medals? How did they lose track of the medals? Somewhere he left them?

MR. JOYCE: Somewhere along the line they sent it to the wrong person, with the same names and everything, but it was just different serials. It was a different name, but close to the same families so they sent them.

MR. FRENCH: They were probably holed up in a drawer somewhere now, old fashioned, through the years.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

Minister, 4.1.01, Recreation - Operations.

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: You mentioned here the Stephenville training centre. How much does it cost to operate the Stephenville training centre?

MR. FRENCH: I know it is over $200,000.

Mark, do you want to speak specifically to that?

MR. JONES: The cost was split over our department and Transportation and Works. Our costs are approximately $100,000 or so in salaries. The building costs, maintenance, heat, light, upkeep, and et cetera, are maintained by Transportation and Works.

MR. JOYCE: Any idea how much?

MR. JONES: Ballpark combined, approaching $300,000, so about $200,000 for Transportation and Works, but I could be off there. That is the ballpark.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, how many other facilities in the Province does the department – I think there is one here in St. John's and one in Happy Valley-Goose Bay?

MR. FRENCH: Obviously we fund the Provincial Training Centre here in St. John's. That is the crown jewel, if you will, for our provincial teams, our Canada Games teams, and so on. There are three other facilities, much like Stephenville; I have arranged meetings now with the mayors of the municipalities throughout the three areas. The only difference is the three of them have pools.

For example, we have Corner Brook, we have Gander, and we have Labrador, Goose Bay. The three of them, and they are the only game in town. Obviously when it came to the Stephenville facility, we believed there are other places where people could have recreation when it comes to the gymnasiums. I know up my way, for example, they use the schools for floor hockey, basketball, badminton, and so on.

In the meantime, just going back to Stephenville for a second there, we have had some significant interest in Stephenville as well, by the way, for people taking over it; having said that, the other three have pools. Right now, what government is doing in three municipalities in the Province is that we are programming pools for local residents. For example, we pay for lifeguards, swimming instructors, and so on. There comes a point in time whereby government does not pay for swimming instructors for everybody and every pool in the Province, so we have to find a way forward. I have called all three municipalities and arranged meetings that are coming up, and we are going to find a way to move forward.

In the case, for example, of Corner Brook, it is in the Arts and Culture Centre. Obviously we own the building, so that makes it a little different, too. It is the same with in Gander. That makes it a little different as well. In Happy Valley-Goose Bay, it is only the pool in the area. Obviously there is more sensitivity in closing down a pool when it is the only game in town.

MR. JOYCE: There is another pool in Corner Brook, there at the college.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, but this one is in the Arts and Culture Centre, so we do not want to chop it off. The building is open. We are operating the building.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, but the logic is that you are operating a building in Stephenville also without a pool, Arts and Culture. If that is the logic the department is using, then there is a pool at the Grenfell College. So the logic that we are only subsidizing the facilities that have pools does not – because that is the only game in town.

MR. FRENCH: The other piece of that is, the Arts and Culture Centre is there. We opened the building. The pool is in the basement of the building. The building is there. That is the case in two of the three. In that one in particular, the pool is actually in the Arts and Culture Centre, so the building is open. We do not want to close off the building.

MR. JOYCE: Just a question, you mentioned that you operate the training centre here in St. John's. The problem with that, from someone who played sports and coached kids who came in here, is that if you close down the centre in Stephenville – a lot of great athletes came from Stephenville who would never be able to get to the Provincial Training Centre unless they have a place to train back home, or even to start. This training centre is so vital, not just for Stephenville but for the whole Port au Port region.

MR. FRENCH: I am sure there are examples of people who use this facility currently to train, but there are very few. The PSOs have all their facilities – when they have their camps and so on, there are very few having camps in that area any more, in Stephenville. What the rationale is for that, I cannot speak for the PSOs. All I am thinking is just because of the population base, it probably costs less to bring the kids to this area of the Province, simply because most of them are here; just the raw population.

There is a private gym now, for example, in Stephenville that you could be competing with. If you lived in any other region of the Province and you are a part of a Canada Games team, the coaching team – we are doing very well at this, actually, coming up with training programs for young people. There are always adjustments made.

If you are in St. Anthony, for example, and you are on a provincial team, you would have to find a way. Usually they do it through the gym, and they provide them with a coach and so on. We believe those facilities exist in Stephenville outside of that; now, having said that, we have some great interest from people who want to keep that facility as a recreation facility. We are going to have an RFP out. Hopefully, within the next twenty-four to forty-eight hours you will see an RFP in the paper. That is what it will be geared toward, keeping it as a recreation facility.

MR. JOYCE: Just from a point of view of someone who knows the area, this logic that there are other gyms in the area, that does not hold water out in Stephenville.

I use judo, for example, there is no other facility out there that can hold the 600 mats that they have. There is no recreation, no weight gym that can hold 600 mats, let alone be able to have judo, tae kwon do, basketball, and all the other activities that are there. So whoever is advising you that there are other gyms that can supply this here, it is –

MR. FRENCH: No, the goal is to keep it as it is. It is just government should not be paying for staffing as we do not pay for it in Corner Brook or in Bay of Islands, for example. We do not pay to staff up a provincial facility. The idea of it is –

MR. JOYCE: You do, two Arts and Culture Centres and the swimming pool.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, but if you go to Conception Bay South, there is nobody paid. If you go to Bay Roberts, you go to Carbonear, or you go right throughout the Province, all of these municipalities and local services districts would love, obviously, for us to be staffing up the recreation facilities.

Hopefully, in the case of Stephenville, what you are going to see is an outside entity take it over, whether that is the municipality, like all other municipalities run their recreation facilities; or you will see, I do not know, some private group.

MR. JOYCE: When I asked a question last week, and Minister Dalley answered it, he said negotiations have been on the go for several years with groups.

MR. FRENCH: The first meeting I had out there on that was in June, 2010. That was the first meeting I had out there. It was a coming together of a number of people throughout the whole region who came to a meeting. Three meetings later, there was nobody there; there were a couple of people who showed up. So, this started a long while ago.

There have been conversations held by previous ministers with stakeholders in the region and there was no take. As you know, going back to 2000 or 20001, it almost happened then. I think there was a move afoot to close the facility back at that time. Not close the facility, but turn it over to a private group.

MR. JOYCE: No, back then, if anything, it was an expression of interest. Does anybody want it? No one wanted it, so they just continued on. It was not saying we are closing it down. It was: Is there some other way, but if there is not, (inaudible).

Minister, the other thing the group asked for, and I will give you an example, is a year's extension. I know some groups when I was contacted were told on Tuesday, and I use judo for example, to have your 600 mats out by 12:00 o'clock on Thursday. There was a provincial tae kwon do that was cancelled. Whatever happened here, there was absolutely no consultation with the groups or with the town council. Even the mayor said he did not realize this was happening.

If there is any way that you can give them an extension for a year, maybe. Three months is not a long time. I know they have a group set up out there now. Dave Murphy is the Chair of the group, trying to see what they can do and if their user fees can pay for it.

Is there any way the department can find the funds to try to give them an extension for a year? At least there is some reprieve and the pressure is off the local individuals.

MR. FRENCH: Shortly after the announcement was made that we were closing the facility, obviously, we started to find out more information from the local people out there on the ground and so on. That is why we went to the ninety days.

Actually, it was the Mayor of Stephenville who I had several conversations with and he impressed upon me – and I did not realize there was a provincial tournament there, for example, when it came to the judo. We took all of that into consideration.

The main thing that was on our minds was to get to the end of the school year. We thought that in the summertime, for example, after the school year is over, in July and August it is very low, the numbers who use the facility. It is like that everywhere. Just in the summer, people are outside playing different sports. You will not see as much basketball and badminton, for example, in July and August as you will at other times of the year. We knew all of that.

We knew the people who use the facility were down in July and August anyway. So we said the sixty days should get us to the end of the school year, and we are still hoping to turn that around. My goal is to turn that around by the end of June so that there is a natural flow. However, having said that, July and August are the slowest months. Should we need a break of a week or two, I think we could handle it with very little, but like I said, I have had –

MR. JOYCE: The idea for a year extension is off the table?

MR. FRENCH: No, it is not on.

MR. JOYCE: It is not on?

MR. FRENCH: No.

MR. JOYCE: The mayor has stated publicly that his town will not take it over. It has to be a regional facility.

What has happened now, it is falling into the hands of some local individuals who started their own group to try to find a way through it. It is almost like these individuals are just private citizens and they are trying to find some way. The pressure is on them now with less than two-and-a-half months left to try to find a way to come up with $200,000, $250,000 through the year. Even a little reprieve for the year, which is not a lot of money when you look at the overall budget for the Province, for that whole region... That will not be considered?

MR. FRENCH: I think if somebody is serious about taking it over, I think they can come up with a plan in ninety days. I know if I was serious and put together a committee I think I could manage to come up with something in ninety days.

I have had several groups, not only private individuals but local; I had one or two other local groups who are not-for-profit groups we will say, also inquire about the facility. My goal and my hope is – I guess when we get the RFP out there and we get all of the submissions in, then we will have a look at them and whoever can provide the best recreation, obviously, that will be one of the main criteria in where we move forward.

MR. JOYCE: That is off the table. I can tell them that is off the table?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, ninety days.

MR. JOYCE: Ninety days.

MR. FRENCH: We are extending it to ninety days.

MR. JOYCE: Can I ask how much – and I am not sure if you have it here with you now, but I can get it in the next couple of days – the cost for the department for the training centre in Stephenville, as compared to the provincial centre here, as compared to the one in Happy Valley-Goose Bay? You might not have all the numbers here, but what it costs for Stephenville and the provincial training centre.

To me, personally for that whole region which has been – for forty years to have a provincial training centre, when a lot of the athletes in that region now are losing their main centre where they can train to be able to advance to that provincial training centre. It is almost like cutting off that part of the area for a lot of athletes I have to say, especially now where government is out promoting recreation.

I can assure you there is no other facility out in Stephenville that can do what they are doing. In Corner Brook you can because there are a lot more gyms, but in Stephenville that – and for the whole Bay St. George, not just Stephenville. If I can get that, Minister.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, we should be able to get you that.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, okay. This just may not be able to happen, but in the budget for this year are there any other cuts to any other facilities? Or is it just this one out in Stephenville?

MR. FRENCH: Not right now. Everything is going right now; however, having said that, we are in the process of moving forward with getting out of the business of providing programming for the other facilities, as I mentioned.

The pools that we operate in other areas of the Province are no different than Stephenville, to some degree. We will be moving away from staffing and programming those facilities as well.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Something else – and there is no need to go through it here now; the department can send it to me in the next little while – what special events and celebrations are planned for this upcoming year? I would like just a list of special celebrations that are happening in the Province.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, I can give you that.

MR. JOYCE: Also, Minister, I know I am not usually too outspoken on this, but if you can supply – and I can get them but it would be easier now through Estimates – a list of applications for special grants and assistance and any new or any changes to them?

MR. FRENCH: No sweat.

MR. JOYCE: We can go through them now, but it would save a lot of time if you could send me them.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, no sweat.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, just to send them so I can have them. Besides the $4 million, is there any other marketing strategy going to be cancelled this year about tourism because of budgetary cuts?

MR. FRENCH: No, the strategy is developed every year and things come and go, when it comes to the strategy. So, the strategy was based on $13 million last year. This year it will be based on $9 million. So right now is the time that they start working on the strategy for next year; again, as I mentioned earlier, whether that be radio, television, newspaper, whatever the case may be. So now they are in the process of developing a plan for the next marketing year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, I am going to bring up something that we discussed before I get to it, and it is about the T'Railway. We discussed about that break in the road just below Georgetown Road there. Is there any way that you can get somebody – and I know the two or three I spoke to out in Corner Brook agreed to meet with myself and the two or three residents, and I mentioned to you that with the flood that was in the area, no one wanted that replaced – absolutely no one.

We had Transportation and Works down who looked at it and twenty feet up, you can put a bridge across. There is not a lot of traffic area that comes through that area, because down below Georgetown Road, that you visited yourself, there is s big parking area, and it is not as busy as the main street down.

Is there any way that someone can meet with these residents? I will meet with them also. This is not a confrontational meeting. I know the letter I got from you stating the cost, but no one ever did the cost. The only cost in the response – and I understand where you are coming from – is to replace this whole, but there was never any intent to do that.

MR. FRENCH: Obviously, as you know, that is part of the provincial park system. So, I would suggest you meet with Minister Hedderson and have a chat with him about it.

I think the T'Railway is something that we have to continue to develop more and more, because again, when you talk about tourism – and I do not know how many I have run into, and it seems to be growing, that now they would like to come to Port aux Basques and go Argentia, and vice versa, on the ATVs along the rail beds.

As for certain pieces like that, I would suggest that you meet with Minister Hedderson on it. For me at the time, if I recall correctly, when I was briefed on it, it was straight cost. That was the cost of repairing that section (inaudible).

MR. JOYCE: That full section, yes.

Is that still on the tourism radar, the T'Railway?

MR. FRENCH: No, it is part of the provincial parks. All of our parks are part of our bag. I mean, if I get a complaint on the park, obviously I will make sure I mention it to Minister Hedderson or his department. That is usually where it goes for me when it comes to – but the parks fall under the Environment and Conservation.

MR. JOYCE: Oh, I know, but where you are the previous minister; is it still a priority for the tourism?

MR. FRENCH: Well, I have to tell you, I have a real soft spot for the provincial T'Railway. I love that part of the Province. It is not many people who can boast of a provincial park that goes from east to west and I just see it as a –

CHAIR: Excuse me, Mr. Joyce, I will give you a couple of more minutes, then I will be back on track with even time. Then I can go to Mr. Mitchelmore and then come back to you.

MR. JOYCE: Sure, go ahead.

CHAIR: If you only need a few minutes to conclude a section, that is fine.

MR. JOYCE: No, I have lots of questions.

CHAIR: Okay, then you can come back.

I will go to Mr. Mitchelmore.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Looking at the Culture and Heritage section of the Estimates, I see that there has been a cut in funding overall. Even though some of the organizations did not receive cuts, they certainly did not get any increases either. It appears that The Rooms certainly took the brunt of those cuts.

I wanted to ask, under section 3.1.01, Culture and Heritage, about the Purchased Services. I know that Mr. Joyce had asked a question specifically around that. I am not sure if I got the clarification that I needed around the $157,800, what that was actually spent on, and why was there $100,500 that was left unspent.

MR. FRENCH: Mark, do you want to have a run at it?

MR. JONES: It is a combination of things there. It was the reallocation of some of the monies to other areas in the operations. Some monies were taken from Purchased Services and T&C Professional Services, et cetera, for purchases. The vehicles that were mentioned previously is one avenue. Some monies went unspent, some efficiencies were found, and fiscal year operations, year to year, not all monies get spent every year.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Right.

What is the amount of funding for the Arts and Letters Competition?

MR. FRENCH: I am thinking $125,000, but I can get that number for you exactly. I do not know why $125,000 rings a bell, but that seems to ring a bell with me.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Would that be allocated under the Grants and Subsidies section under this?

MR. FRENCH: Mark, do you want to respond to that, please?

MR. JONES: The Arts and Letters program actually is run directly out of the department. There are staff assigned to that role. All expenditures for that program actually come from various operational areas of the budget, so you would not see that represented in the Grants. The $125,000-ish or $100,000, whatever the minister said there, some of that is Salaries and some of that would be in Transportation and Communications –

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

What about the Art Procurement Program? What is the status of that?

MR. JONES: Status quo.

MR. MITCHELMORE: They are not being cut any type of funding; it is staying in terms of operation?

MR. JONES: Correct.

MR. MITCHELMORE: What funds to historic sites are allocated under this subheading? What are the specific amounts to the historic sites? Could you provide a list of how the funds are being allocated?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, there is no reduction in funding for Provincial Historic Sites. That varies from year to year. We could be doing work on one – this year, for example, we are doing work on the Bonavista Lighthouse.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

MR. FRENCH: We are painting the Bonavista Lighthouse. We are hoping to start the work of exploring how we are going to fix the fence around Mockbeggar. Next year that could be a Provincial Historic Site somewhere else. That moves around depending on maintenance and so on that is required at each facility. Where I am going with it is the funding pot has not changed, but where it is spent will change to –

MR. MITCHELMORE: Where it is spent, yes.

I am very pleased to hear that there is going to be some work done at the Bonavista Lighthouse. I know that was an issue last year around the actual physical structure. Having our sites up to a standard is highly important.

The Province increased the fees to Provincial Historic Sites.

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Do you anticipate that is going to have an impact on visitation and the additional revenue or not that would be generated? It seems like despite the increase what was budgeted last year, the $65,000 line item, really only generated $45,000. You are either anticipating an increase in visitors or the 10 per cent increase in fees may help get you back up to $65,000. Is that the anticipation?

MR. FRENCH: No, I do not expect a reduction in the number of people who go there. The reason for the increase – there are a number of reasons. Obviously it is a revenue generator; it goes into the general revenues I believe. Does it, Mark?

We do not see it as such. Any time that government takes in money it goes into general revenues. It does not go back into the pot, if you will, for Provincial Historic Sites; it goes into the bigger picture.

The reality of it is when we came to look at the fees that we are charging to our Provincial Historic Sites, we are significantly lower than some of the other privately-run sites around. Here we were and it seemed like we were undercutting. I just forget the number, but everywhere I think we were $2, $3, $4, and $5 under sites that were all around it, the whole tourism cluster.

It was important that we be kind of seen as on a level playing field. That was one of the reasons why we put it up, because it would generate very small amounts of revenue. The increase will be very minor. I do not know exactly the amount of money, Chris, but the increase would be very, very small that flowed into general revenues. We wanted to stay on par with the rest of the organizations throughout the Province.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Is that something that the organizations were lobbying for, an increase in fees? I have travelled to many countries and things that are state or owned by the country itself are generally of a lower fee or a reduced or free entry type thing, because it is so important to be promoting the culture and heritage of a region. Increasing fees can be restrictive, and we do not get to tell our stories the same way to the people who are coming.

MR. FRENCH: We have increased that very, very small. It has gone up from $6 to $7, or $6 to $8, over the next three years, those kinds of increases. They are very, very minor in nature.

MR. MITCHELMORE: You said that the revenue that is collected goes through general revenues. Can you explain the line item 02, Revenue – Provincial, why it was budgeted at $65,000 and only received $45,000 in their 2012-2013 budget?

MR. FRENCH: Mark, do you want to take that?

MR. JONES: Quite simply, not as much revenue was collected through ticket sales for admissions to the sites. That does not necessarily translate into decreased visitation, however, as many clients receive complimentary admission, Sundays, et cetera, groups; so not all of it is directly controlled by ticket sales at the site.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

CHAIR: The minister just had to step out for a second. Unless there is something you can direct to one of his staff, I would prefer if you wait until the minister returns, if that is fine.

MR. MITCHELMORE: That is fine with me.

CHAIR: We can take a quick five-minute recess if somebody wants to stretch their legs and go to the washroom. We can come back at 10:50 a.m., in six minutes.

MR. MITCHELMORE: That is great, thanks.

CHAIR: Mr. Mitchelmore, you have five minutes remaining on your allotted time. Continue with the questions to the minister and his staff, please.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, great.

Under Culture and Heritage, 3.1.01, section 10, Grants and Subsidies, that has been cut by $362,500. Is there a list, or can we have a list of who was provided grants and subsidies from last year?

MR. FRENCH: Yes. I can pretty well tell you what the difference is there, too, by the way.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, sure.

MR. FRENCH: We are doing a pilot project of $75,000 on the Northern Peninsula, which you probably have heard of up your way. It was coming together as a cluster to try to – that is correct is it, Mark?

MR. MITCHELMORE: The Heritage Cluster Project.

MR. FRENCH: It was ongoing for three years. The hope is now they are going to continue on and follow through on that.

The other program was CEDP. There were two programs under the CEDP. One was the Fisheries Heritage Program, which has gone from about 100 per cent take-up down to about 30 per cent take-up on it. We have done like 150 sheds, stores, and wharves over the last number of years and there is no buy in. It has been like that for the last several years; it is less and less and less and less and less.

There are still programs available whereby people can still apply to have heritage structures designated and funded and so on. This one has outlived its usefulness, basically.

The other one was a program that sent artists abroad, is about the best way I can describe it. It was picked up by us in 2009 when the feds cut the program. That program did some great work, but if we never had five cents cut out of the budget this year, that is one program that I would have wanted to see realigned or changed or something done with it. It was with that in mind, that program ended too. It was a federal program that we picked up and I was not a big fan of it.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

So those two programs are specifically dropped completely?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. MITCHELMORE: The CEDP has changes. Is that correct? There is still some money available for local artists to tour and gain market access for its projects.

MR. FRENCH: Correct.

MR. MITCHELMORE: The money that was in the budget previously for doing that is still there?

MR. FRENCH: No, those two specific programs that I mentioned are no longer there.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Right, but to tour within the Province like, for example, Theatre Newfoundland and Labrador or theatre companies –

MR. FRENCH: Yes. There is money as well under the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council that you can avail of for that type of activity.

MR. MITCHELMORE: So how much money is available under the CEDP, or is there is no money available under CEDP for this type of travel? I am just trying to get some clarification here.

MR. FRENCH: The CEDP covers a wide range of – that is a big, significant pot of money that goes a long ways. Mark, I do not know if you want to respond to that and provide some specifics.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Can we maybe have itemized funds as to where it was previously and where it is now?

MR. FRENCH: Sure, we can get you that. That is no problem.

MR. MITCHELMORE: The school arts program is being cut by the Department of Education, and that included visiting artists programs and ArtsSmarts touring programs in the schools. These are going to have a big impact on the culture and heritage sector and how we reach out to future artists, audiences, and opportunities.

Did the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation have any input on the decision that was made by the Department of Education on this cut that is going to impact the artists and the audiences and, really, growing the industry, our own local talents?

MR. FRENCH: We work with the Department of Education all the time and I guess the three of us are partners with the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council when it comes to designing programs, but through the whole budget process and efficiencies, we all had to do our own thing and come up with ways. So that was a decision that Education made.

The program is still not wiped out. My understanding, I think it was cut in half. Is that correct, Mark? I think the program was cut in half, so I think they are still going to maintain some form of that program. We are still doing a significant piece of work with schools and with young people through our various programs.

MR. MITCHELMORE: I think cuts to these programs are going to have far-reaching impacts to our future generations when it comes to preserving and fostering that type of culture and heritage, those values. There should be some consideration for looking at where your department is with expending its money when it comes to culture and heritage. It has received cuts, that sector especially, and given to consideration that your department's overall budget has increased for this year.

MR. FRENCH: Just to comment on that. If you will notice from the arts piece, in particular, you will notice that a lot of the arts have not been touched at all; and, in particular, the creation of art has not been touched either. That was something that was important to us.

MR. MITCHELMORE: There was a working group formed last year to correlate the cultural statistics. Is there a progress report available on that?

MR. FRENCH: Mark, do you want to respond to that?

MR. JONES: That work is ongoing, working group, steering committee, of which we have our sector partners, the Arts Council, the Film Corp, on board there. We have some internal resources dedicated to that. A report, no, but the work is continuing. If you wanted to have an offline chat with the people responsible, I am sure we could have that.

MR. MITCHELMORE: When it comes to the Arts and Culture Centres, Mr. Joyce asked a number of questions around it, and you had committed to providing a list of where the positions are going to be lost; and, providing that, I would certainly like a copy of it.

MR. FRENCH: There are seven positions in total and they went from full-time to temporary, and there was one position at the Arts and Culture Centre in St. John's that was eliminated.

MR. MITCHELMORE: When it comes to looking at the Arts and Culture Centres, what is the department doing to make it more accessible to non-profit, community groups, making the rental fees more affordable so that they can be utilized more, generating additional revenues, so that these types of cutbacks do not have to happen?

MR. FRENCH: We have been encouraging people to use the facility. For whatever reason, Corner Brook is doing very well; St. John's is doing extremely well. We have some other places in the Province where there is no take-up. It is unusual because these are areas where the economy is good, there are lots of things happening, but for some reason the communities are not coming out and patronizing it. Now, that is why we give money to all the theatres and theatre festivals, and we do what we can to encourage, and we will continue to do what we can to encourage people to use the facilities, but you cannot physically go and drag them by the scruff of the neck onto the stage.

Whatever it takes – that is why we have a CEDP for creation of art over $2 million. That is why we fund the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council, the film corporation, and the list goes on and on. Visual artists, for example, some of the artists use it to show their work. We have continued funding for those areas in the creation of art with the hope that obviously they go into the buildings and use them as much as they possibly can.

CHAIR: Mr. Mitchelmore, I am going to give you one more question and then I am going to go to Mr. Joyce. Then we will go back and forth again. I am going to stick to my fifteen minute time frame back and forth.

Mr. Mitchelmore.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay. Is there any initiative being put forward to – beyond looking at the centres itself, because there are so many areas that are under serviced when it comes to access to performances and theatre that would surround these geographical areas. Just looking at the Northern Peninsula or looking at various areas of Labrador that these mangers would be looking at maybe organizing. If they had a tour happening at their own centre, if they could be looking at co-ordinating other sites and travel to try and bring up revenues, because we have had tours happen.

The Theatre Newfoundland and Labrador group have been highly successful going into schools and regions and picking up revenue. Maybe some of that revenue then could go back into the Arts and Culture Centres and really bring out these assets that we have.

I think something further needs to be done when it comes to the tools that we have at hand. We cannot just look at the Arts and Culture Centres as a bricks and mortar building. There has to be further outreach being done and these staff being fully utilized to reach out into the communities as well. Is there any type of movement done on that?

MR. FRENCH: Mark, do you want to respond?

MR. JONES: Quite a lot, actually. In particular, in the past two years we have changed the way we think about our Arts and Culture Centres. Not just about the six bricks and mortar buildings that the Province owns.

We have done two very significant pieces of work. One is our partner circuit, Bonavista and NaGeira, at the NaGeira Theatre in Carbonear. In Bonavista you have the Garrick. In Clarenville they have a new theatre.

Just last year actually, Theatre Newfoundland and Labrador based out of Corner Brook, works out of Cow Head, we supported them through the Arts and Culture Centre to tour Tempting Providence to sixty different locations around the Province. Where appropriate, we go into schools. It is a nice segue into the second piece that we are doing, which is we have a school tour program where our staff work to produce pieces of work.

We are also interested in working with other producers who may want to produce work tied to the curriculum outcomes so that we can get more productions with developing that audience, young people in schools. In the past two years there have been some significant changes there, and the uptake has been fantastic. The number of productions is up, and the number of sites that we are touching with those productions is up.

CHAIR: Mr. Mitchelmore, I am going to move to Mr. Joyce.

Thank you.

MR. JOYCE: I have some general questions to the minister or the staff on a few things here.

Before I go any further, Minister, I would just like to thank the staff from the department for the work that is done around the Province, in case we do not have time at the end. I know it is a challenging job and there are always evolving issues, so to the staff around, a good job with the tourism ads.

Minister, your Executive Assistant there, Barry, I have to say thanks for all your help in the previous department. I know when you call upon him he is always there. He is always there to help and always cordial. I just want to put that on the record. It was great to be dealing with him.

MR. FRENCH: Government and Opposition do work together on occasion, don't they?

MR. JOYCE: They do, and I am a firm believer that you have to work together. When people work with you on issues, you have to recognize that also and not be selfish and just complain, but there are times when there are a lot of things going on. I know on one or two big projects, Barry has helped our office a lot and kept us informed. I just want to recognize that also.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is good, and that will continue.

MR. JOYCE: I am sure, yes. I just wanted to recognize that and have it on the record, Minister.

Will there be any investment restoration for the Matthew this year down in Bonavista? Is there any money allocated for that?

MR. FRENCH: No, there will not. We do, however, provide them with a grant every year through the CEDP. It is now up to, if I recall correctly, a little over $30,000 a year for operational. Is it $30,000 Mark, does that sound about right? It is about $30,000 a year we provide for operational.

The last time that I met with them – I just recently met with Glen Little about it who has been advocating. The reality of it is that they are looking for about $1 million to redo that vessel. There are a number of things that the committee has to decide. Do they enclose the vessel and keep it in?

The last time I visited down there, last year or the year before, they had the vessel inside then. They kept it in. You could tour the vessel but it was inside the building. It was not in the water. I guess that is a decision, but it is an awful lot of money that they need right now.

I know at one point we got money to do some ropes, for example. I think the rigging one time, but that was specific to a small job. We worked with them through that. I think IBRD actually got them the money that time through us. Through IBRD we work together.

Right now, they are looking at over $1 million. That is a significant sum. Obviously, you would want a long-term plan when you are coming forward looking for that kind of money. It is a great facility. I love the facility itself, but at that price and that cost they have to come up with a plan. Government is not in a position to give them a million dollars every year for maintenance on a boat that is in the water.

MR. JOYCE: How did Marble Mountain do this year? Is it just the preliminary – I know it is a bit too early.

MR. FRENCH: It is a bit early. I think they were on par with last year, if I recall correctly, but it seemed like they had a lot of snow this year. It seemed like it was pretty good there for a while. I do not know the exact number. I can provide you with that as time goes on.

MR. JOYCE: When you get that, can you supply us with a copy of that?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is not a problem.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, the other thing, which is an issue that was brought up in Public Accounts, is the chalet. Are there any thoughts in the department to get rid of the chalet? As we discussed in Public Accounts, is the debt ratio to the Marble Mountain Corporation, is the chalet at the bottom of the hill. Are there any plans for that, or –?

MR. FRENCH: No, I cannot say there are thoughts about getting rid of it. I know the board themselves have talked about trying to come up with plans to redevelop the area to try to make it more cost effective.

My understanding, and something that I have learned about ski hills – I am still no expert when it comes to ski hills, but apparently ski hills that survive and do well, it is more about the infrastructure around them than the actual sales for the ski passes. I think that is where the head of the board was the last time I met with them, was trying to come up with a plan to – I think they have, actually, come up with a plan now of ways of developing the base of the hill. There is no plan, as such, to get rid of the chalet at this point.

MR. JOYCE: When we discussed it, and the Chair can – if I am right, there is about 20 per cent occupancy there at the chalet. It is low for standards, and the keep. Capital cost and the maintenance is extremely high. I do not if there is something that, or if we can find some other way to use it, because there are a lot of private industries, I would say, that would be interested in it, or there is already a lot of private at the hill that can supply a lot of the skiers.

MR. FRENCH: Well, I am sure I can't speak for all of government, but I can tell you I would certainly entertain anything, and I am sure the board would, ways to generate extra revenue to maintain the hill as we currently do. It certainly would not be a closed shop. If somebody knew somebody who wanted to have a discussion about anything I would be certainly more than willing to open the door.

MR. JOYCE: Will there be any other ski hills receiving funding this year out in Clarenville?

MR. FRENCH: Not that I am aware of. I know there is a cross-country group that skis there at the base, I think, at Clarenville. I think they may have gotten a small recreation grant, like Lark Harbour, something of that nature to help do up the trail or something, but that would be the extent of it.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The Republic of Doyle this year, I do not know if you have all the figures, the total cost for the investment for the Republic of Doyle. Do you have that now or can you –

MR. FRENCH: Yes, I can give you that. It is $3 million, $1.5 million over two fiscal years. Actually, now what we have done with the new season coming up, because they have gone from twelve episodes to sixteen, it has gone from $1.5 million to $1.25 million, but it is over a three-year period now. That is the little difference this year. Where they have increased their number of episodes, we have increased our investments, but over a longer period of time and for a number of different reasons.

Just to point out, for the money that we invest, it is a significant amount of money spent in this Province that would not be spent here. For our investment of $3 million, it is over $20 million that we get from outside sources that funds that show. It is employing about 175 year-round staff, employees. There are times it is up to 200 and 300 people on set. It is good paying jobs. We have really developed an industry. The film industry was absolutely dead here in the Province. I should not say dead, that is not fair for me to say, but it certainly was not at the level it is at today.

Last year, for example, because of the Republic of Doyle and because of investments in the industry, last year the highest budgeted – which most people would not know. The highest budgeted film made last year in Canada was made in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, in Old Bonaventure or New Bonaventure.

MR. JOYCE: New Bonaventure.

MR. FRENCH: Or both. These are the things that are happening because of the investments in Republic of Doyle. Now you are seeing this spin out into other regions of the Province. So, it is good stuff.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, you mentioned – and I will use an example of the theatre Bay of Islands Enhancement Committee for walking trails out in Lark Harbour, York Harbour. They put in applications for minor grants. They are looking for minor recreation grants, which sometimes goes to municipalities, which I think is great. Are there any other applications that they can apply for through the department?

I will just give you an example. They probably have about thirty, forty kilometres of hiking trail now up through the mountains, up over Blow Me Down Mountains, overlooking Lark Harbour. People come from all over Newfoundland to go to the trails. They are almost stuck now for funding.

I do not know if there is any major capital funding for it because the trails are – and I walk them all. Some are moderate, some are easy, and some you have to use ropes to get up. I do not know, through the department, if there is any other – or if the department can send me some applications that I can forward to them.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, we will certainly send you the application for the small and large capital grants for our capital recreation grants. The maximum is $15,000 in those. They would probably be looking for something more significant than that, I am thinking.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: I know that there is probably – and I do not know, but I think IBRD may have money available for that sort of thing. You know the way it goes, ACOA and IBRD, and all hands are in at the one time. I think that would be the only place. We do not have major capital like that. Ours are much smaller.

MR. JOYCE: Yes. They put one in for the capital grant $15,000, but then that usually goes in to municipalities.

MR. FRENCH: Not necessarily. They could very well qualify for the $15,000. That is no problem at all.

The way we do it, we give every district $15,000 in a large capital grant. That is the way it has been for years, and that remains. If they were to apply and they were – have a look at it. If you wanted to speak to me about it, I would certainly have a look at it for them, no problem at all.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, but I believe they are looking at more of a major one, probably in Industry, Trade and Rural Development.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is what I figure, for that amount of trail. The small ones that we have, you might construct a bridge or some road gravel. Small stuff compared to what I am thinking. We have the same issue in CBS with our rail bed. Our recreation grants are no good. They are looking for big money.

MR. JOYCE: We mentioned about the new signage, the TODS program. I am not sure if it is tourism. Why are some singled out and some not? I know I am probably putting you on the spot because I am not sure if it is your department. Usually it is Transportation and Works.

You can go to one area and people are told to take down their signs. You can drive twenty, thirty kilometres and the exact same signs are up again. Is there any systematic approach to say here is what we are doing as we move across?

MR. FRENCH: No. I mean the TODS program is in place right now. There are an awful lot of people – I should not say this, but I am sure there are people putting up illegal signs. That is the way it is. When TW goes around they take them down, that is the nature of the business.

You can, right now, apply for a sign to put up as long as you meet the requirements of the rules of the game. It has to be tourism related, so on and so on. You can get a permit for up to a year. If you qualify and it is okay to put it up, you have one year.

We have done a full TODS rollout in two sections, as a pilot project. We are still encouraging people, rather than go out now and buy a new sign to put up, to get a permit and put it up because in a year's time your section could be done. We are rolling it out in sections. We are suggesting: Listen, instead of doing that, why don't you buy a TODS sign and put it up? Then you have no worries about it.

MR. JOYCE: Can we get a copy of where you are going next so we can, like out my way, inform the people of Bay of Islands? Because it is haphazard the way it is being enforced. If we had some way of saying, here is what we are doing next, so you could inform people. If you do this, this is what is going to happen next year. So do not –

MR. FRENCH: We have not picked a section for a total rollout yet, but in the last couple of years what we have been doing is installing the bigger signs across the Province to get people's head around.

Like I mentioned earlier, in Clarenville, for example, we have been buying the bigger signs, the big ones for the Trans Canada. I guess now as time goes on we will branch out. That is where we have been the last twelve months, is the larger, bigger signs. Sure, I will certainly inform you when we make a decision on what area we are doing next, no problem.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Do you want – I had fifteen minutes.

CHAIR: I am going to go back and forth.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, good idea.

CHAIR: Okay, Mr. Joyce.

Mr. Mitchelmore.

MR. MITCHELMORE: When it comes to the Arts and Culture Centres, 3.1.02, has the federal government changed its funding allocation? Because last year it was $58,500 and this year it is anticipated to be $75,000?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, they have been reduced. A 10 per cent reduction to the arts presentation and a 10 per cent holdback, and that will be received when the final report is done apparently.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, thank you for that.

Under the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council, that is the next section, Grants and Subsidies remain the same. Has there been any change to looking at what the average grant and the applications that can be put forward? Because it seems like we have a small sum of money for the number of applicants that are being applied. There are so many who are being turned away each year. Was there no consideration for looking at an increase?

MR. FRENCH: Any time that you have a grant-driven program, you are going to have a number of people who will not get money. We have taken that fund from $800,000 I think it was, or $750,000 to $2.1 million. We have made significant investments.

Unfortunately, there is never enough money to go around – never. I am sure we could make that fund – we could double it tomorrow and we could easily move it. It does not matter what area you are in, whether you are in the arts, whether you are in recreation, whether you are in Municipal Affairs, or TW, there is just no end to the amount of people who want support. Some of them are very good projects, but you cannot be everything to everybody. That is the reality.

MR. MITCHELMORE: How does our Arts Council funding rank in terms of the other Provinces?

MR. FRENCH: I would not be able to tell you. I do not know. I have no idea.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Is there anyone on staff who would be able to answer it?

MR. FRENCH: I know we are in the game. We are not the lowest in the country, if that is what you mean, per capita. Exactly where we stand, I do not know. I am sure the Arts Council could tell you exactly where they stand.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, I will certainly touch base with them.

The Rooms Corporation received over a $1 million cut in funding. You had noted that there were thirteen positions that were being laid off or deemed redundant, that included archivists and conservators. That really has an impact on the Archives Division really to collect, preserve and make the historical records available to the public. Is the department concerned about its legislative mandate to the Archives?

MR. FRENCH: No, we believe we can still maintain the services that we have provided all along. We are not worried about that. Like I said they had a staffing – the interesting thing about The Rooms is that there were three groups that came together when The Rooms was formed. There was the Museum Association, the Archives, and the Art Gallery. These were all provincial groups that came together with their staff complements.

A staff complement of eighty-eight people is fairly significant. We figured that in working with the group down there where we wanted to find savings was not so much in how – we wanted to reduce the impact it had on people who visited the site. We had to find the savings. It is unfortunate that these people were let go, but that was the reality. Like I said I did not take any delight in that process, but it was a necessary evil.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Right. I have done quite a bit of research on The Rooms in my past studies at Memorial University and throughout that process as part of retail management. I am concerned that these cutbacks will have a significant impact. I am a member of The Rooms annually.

Just looking at what they do, their programming, that they reach out to children, to others, looking at their impact and role they play at heritage fairs, at school tours that they give, and other children's programs, they are certainly going to have to be reduced – when you reduce your staff to that amount, it is quite a bit of downloading.

Is the department concerned of the impact that is going to have on the culture of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, to be able to promote and expand our – quite a significant part of what helps our tourism budget grow as well.

MR. FRENCH: Well, people who come here, from the tourism perspective, go to The Rooms. If I know people who come here I always bring them to The Rooms, for example, if asked – friends and family, and one thing and another – but we are not exactly down there with a nail bag strapped on and sheets of plywood tacking up to the windows. That is a $6 million investment annually. It employs fifty-seven full-time employees and eighteen part-time, so it is not like we are turning our back on the place and boarding it up.

It is still a significant investment from government's perspective. I believe, and government believes, that it can maintain the services that it provides, and that is our goal. We had to find efficiencies in the budget and this was one of the places. Again, looking across the arts community, the sectoral organizations and so on, we did not cut 5 cents from them, but we had to find funding somewhere, and unfortunately that was one of the places.

MR. MITCHELMORE: It is like the cuts in the Department of Education to libraries. They are cutting the professional librarians, the people with high levels of expertise, the same way The Rooms are cutting highly skilled professionals when it comes to archivists and conservators.

These are people who are going to be very difficult to replace, and what they do in terms of the training to other people, the outreach to rural areas when it comes to training other volunteers, providing advice, installing art, and giving direction to many of the other museums that we have throughout the Province and other archives across Newfoundland and Labrador.

I think that this is going to have a big impact on our rural culture, heritage, and even tourism. Was this something that was analyzed when the cuts were made?

MR. FRENCH: Cuts are never nice, but we still have a complement of seventy-five people at The Rooms. So like I said, it is not like we are down there boarding up the place. Seventy-five people and a $6 million budget, that is significant. You talk about rural Newfoundland – rural Newfoundland are connected to The Rooms in that it holds a lot of the heritage from rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

So we believe it can maintain what we have been doing all along. It is not that there are no archivists left, it is not that there are no curators left, there are still seventy-five people down there employed, and $6 million to do it. We think they can do it at that level of funding and at that staffing level.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Under 3.1.05, Newfoundland and Labrador Film Development Corporation, you had made reference to how we had a very limited film industry in the Province. Seeing that there is no increase from previous Estimates looking at the marketing, the operating and program support that the Newfoundland and Labrador Film Development Corporation does, maybe this is an area where they should have received an increase in investment to look at bringing in additional revenues, the same way as we are looking at seeing the success of shows like the Republic of Doyle.

MR. FRENCH: There is no end to the grocery list of what people would like to see. I would like to see increases to all of them, to be totally frank with you. The reality of it is that it is only so long you can buy your groceries on the Visa, is the line. There is only so much we can do.

What we also did here is we broke out the Republic of Doyle. Because it is such a major investment, we have left the film corporation to itself to deal with these other smaller productions, if you will, and we broke out the Republic of Doyle for exactly that reason. Plus, with the tax credit, we have increased the tax credit this year for the Republic of Doyle. There are a lot of things happening so that this money is not gobbled up by the bigger productions, if you will, and allows for more money to move around.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

In terms of tax credits, are they available to smaller film productions as well? Is that something that would be looked at being expanded as well to attract new industry?

MR. FRENCH: We have increased it this year, so yes.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

The Historic Sites Development, 3.1.06, the amount is the same. I think that was explained to us. Are there any activities around – I was just in Red Bay and they are seeking UNESCO status. It looks like that is advancing quite well.

Is there intent or appropriations available, should this become a UNESCO site this year? Is there any initiative that the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation is playing in this role around Red Bay?

MR. FRENCH: It is a National Historic Site, correct?

MR. MITCHELMORE: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: That would be run by the federal government. Obviously we are working now, and I can speak even though it is not through this department, but I can tell you that down at the Southern Shore, down at –

MR. MITCHELMORE: Mistaken Point?

MR. FRENCH: – Mistaken Point, we are working on making that a World UNESCO site as well and do staffing, through writing up proposals, and doing what you have to do to make that happen. I remember that from my previous roles.

Whatever the tourism cluster, whatever we can do to enhance the cluster at any given time, we do and that is the nature of the business.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

The Special Celebrations and Events that are there for this year, there is an increase of $247,000 and you are saying that the majority of that is for the World War commemorations for that event?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Is there money being allocated as well for the Elliston Sealers Memorial Interpretation Centre? I know that the Home from the Sea Campaign raised the money, the $2.4 million. That is going to be happening next year. Is the department planning any role to look at commemorating this event in 2014 as well?

MR. FRENCH: Right now, I know that the provincial government has given money toward the building of the monument.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: That is it; that is as far as I am aware of. That was through MA, Municipal Affairs.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Under the Salaries there was $52,500 unspent in 2012. Was there a staff position that was planned that did not actually go forward?

MR. FRENCH: Is that the 3.1.07.01?

MR. MITCHELMORE: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: No, it was not planned. There was a person there for a number of years previous who dealt with the JUNOs, dealt with the Olympics. That was vacant, but it was still a line item. Last year we moved a person into that position that was just really seconded from another position within the department and they started the planning process. It was just the beginning and now, this year, we will ramp it up. No doubt, there will be another person probably seconded or hired on, whatever the case may be, and fill that total. It is just a matter of taking the appropriate steps.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Why were the Purchased Services so much unspent as to what was allocated? There was over $68,000 unspent and there is even more allocated this year with a limited amount of staff, that was last year – why didn't the money that was allocated get spent?

MR. FRENCH: Again, it is just part of the planning process. We did not ramp up fast enough to spend that amount of money, so next year we figure we are going to need that and a little bit more. That is part of the whole ramping up of the work. The World War I commemorations will be over a number of years, obviously. There will be a number of events planned over a five-year period, I think it is.

MR. MITCHELMORE: What was the $60,000 that was spent in the Grants and Subsidies section? Because there was not anything allocated and you are anticipating another $75,000 this year, so it is $135,000 in the budgetary item, Grants and Subsidies, 10.

MR. FRENCH: There was $60,000 spent.

MR. MITCHELMORE: On what?

MR. FRENCH: It was given to The Rooms actually.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

MR. FRENCH: The Rooms is doing a piece of research on the First World War for us. We have given them the money. They are the appropriate people to do it obviously. No doubt, they will hire a person to do that piece of work.

MR. MITCHELMORE: You are anticipating that you are going to need an additional $75,000 to finish this research work? Is that appropriated to The Rooms as well?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. MITCHELMORE: All of it?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

The Film Development Corporation, this is primarily the funds allocated to the Republic of Doyle?

MR. FRENCH: What is that?

MR. MITCHELMORE: The Newfoundland and Labrador Film Development Corporation, the Loans, Advances and Investments are down a little bit, but you had said that you had separated out the Republic of Doyle funds. Some of these funds are allocated here?

MR. FRENCH: Right.

MR. MITCHELMORE: What would be the other types of loans, advances and investments that you would be taking on? Are there new projects as well under this $4.75 million?

MR. FRENCH: The film corporation is an entity of government obviously. They create the programs and distribute the money. Government has no involvement I do not think in the actual application process or what happens within their organization. They create the programs and fund them as they see fit.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Can we have a list of the $5 million of Loans, Advances and Investments that were spent last year? That is what was budgeted and allocated, that is what was revised, if we could have a list of that.

MR. FRENCH: The film corporation – that is probably online, is it, Mark? I think that may be online. If it is not online, though, we have no problem giving it to you.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Great.

Do I still have additional time?

CHAIR: Yes, I can give you an extra five minutes. Then I will go back to Mr. Joyce to finish off, and then the last synopsis at the end of it.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

Under Recreation, section 4.1.01, we see a significant decrease in Salaries there on that line. How many positions were lost?

MR. FRENCH: That reduction is the closure of the Stephenville training centre. Those are three positions. That is part of the twenty that I mentioned earlier.

MR. MITCHELMORE: The closure of the Stephenville training centre was the $211,800 under Salaries?

MR. FRENCH: No, I do not think that was the total cost. Is there something else that goes with that, Mark?

MR. JONES: (Inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: Okay, that is it. Yes, the positions in Stephenville.

MR. MITCHELMORE: The three positions in Stephenville cost, in terms of salaries, over $200,000, in addition to the cost that Transportation and Works would have for heating the facility and things like that or there are other positions –

MR. FRENCH: No, I think we are gone off a little bit.

What is your question again because I think we are gone –

MR. MITCHELMORE: Under the Salaries section, the revised amount was $1.3 million and what you have this year is $1.1 million, so the difference is $211,800. I had asked what positions and you had responded that it is the positions with the West Coast Training Centre. I am just seeking clarification if those three positions, the total cost associated with it was $211,000.

MR. FRENCH: There is another big piece of that that is related to the Director retiring; there is a big piece of severance that goes with that.

MR. MITCHELMORE: So all the retirements and severances of people leaving positions are included in this year's Estimates as well?

MR. FRENCH: Correct.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Are they included in this year's Estimates or are they in the revised of last year's amount because they had left?

MR. FRENCH: It depends on what part of the fiscal year they fell in. This one here I think, as you can see, is revised. I think he retired in January or February, so that would be in the last fiscal year. That is why it would have been revised.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Do you have a number as to the two full-time and one part-time position as to what the staffing cost was for the West Coast Training Centre?

MR. FRENCH: About $80,000 or $90,000.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

The Province had a strategy, the Recreation and Sport Strategy: Active, Healthy Newfoundland and Labrador, and committed quite a large amount of money towards it. They had programs like the after-school physical activity pilot program. Is that still in existence or did it get cut?

MR. FRENCH: No, it is still in place.

MR. MITCHELMORE: How much money is being allocated to this program?

MR. FRENCH: Mark, can you fill me in – it is $200,000?

MR. JONES: (Inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: We commit $200,000 and the Department of Health and Community Services commits $200,000.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

What about Recreation Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. FRENCH: They have not been cut any money at all, neither has Sport NL, neither has School Sport NL. Now, their programs change a little bit sometimes. You will see they will pick a program and drop a program, that sort of stuff. There is no reduction in their overall budgets.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

So they did not lose any positions?

MR. FRENCH: They fund themselves, so if they operate with ten or one or two, that is their bag. We just give them –

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay. What about the Travel Subsidy Program and the Labrador Travel Subsidy Program, has that changed?

MR. FRENCH: No. From this fiscal to last fiscal, is there a change in that? No, it is $730,000.

MR. MITCHELMORE: That is for both programs?

MR. FRENCH: That is for the Labrador travel program.

MR. MITCHELMORE: That is the Labrador one. What about the Travel Subsidy Program in particular? There are two specific programs.

MR. FRENCH: Mark, do you want to respond to that? There are no cuts.

MR. JONES: Are your referencing the two programs under Labrador Travel Subsidy?

MR. MITCHELMORE: No, just the Travel Subsidy Program and then the Labrador Travel Subsidy Program.

MR. JONES: The Labrador Travel Subsidy is $730,000. That remains the same. That is administrated two main ways.

There is a National Travel Subsidy for provincial athletes, provincial teams to travel outside of the Province to attend national championships. That is the same as well.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

CHAIR: Mr. Mitchelmore, if you could ask just one final question, then I am going to go to Mr. Joyce to complete.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

What about capital grants and the community recreation development grants for seniors, those types of programs, have there been cuts made to any of these? Are we still going to be continuing with things like the Premier's Athletic Awards and things of that nature?

MR. FRENCH: No cuts.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Michelmore

Mr. Joyce, I am going to go to you to finish off this section.

MR. JOYCE: Mr. Chair, I will just ask a few general questions, five or six general questions.

Will there be any contribution to the Ann Harvey Centre in Isle aux Mort this year?

MR. FRENCH: Not through our department that I am aware of. I do not know if it will be – are you familiar with it? Do they qualify under CEDP? What is it?

MR. JOYCE: It is the Ann Harvey Centre in Isle aux Mort. It is a tourism centre.

MR. FRENCH: I would have to check on that for you because they could be getting money under one of our programs, under CEDP or under –

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Because it is a heritage facility, if I recall correctly. I know the facility. I know of Ann Harvey, yes, but I do not know if they are part of the 130 that we give funding to or not. They are at different levels.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, you just give back to –

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

Visitor Information Centres in the Province: Will there any cuts to that, and will there be any new sites set up?

MR. FRENCH: No, there will not be any new sites.

Actually, there was a piece of work done by someone a number of years ago outside that basically said the Visitor Information Centres, people are moving away from that. To be totally frank with you, I do not have my head around that yet. I cannot see why you would not have VICs. There is a mentality now out there in the industry, nationally and internationally, that VICs are going the way of the dinosaur. Like I said, I still cannot get my head there, and that is not my plan.

There are some changes to the VICs this year. What we have done, I think we have shortened the season. The season would go from, I cannot remember the exact date, but I think it is a week on each end that we have shortened the season to find some savings. The one in Deer Lake at the airport was year-round. We have taken that in, put that as a seasonal one as well. Those were the changes to the VICs throughout the Province.

MR. JOYCE: How about the one in Corner Brook?

MR. FRENCH: That is run privately. We give them a grant every year, and that will remain the same.

MR. JOYCE: A grant. Has the grant changed?

MR. FRENCH: No, it remains the same.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Winter tourism out on the West Coast, as you know, it is pretty big. The snowmobile federation, it is a big industry. Is there anything there that your department can do?

I spoke to the Chair of the Western Sno-Riders association. They have to maintain a lot of bridges. I think they are looking to see if there is any way they can get some small form of tax back with the amount of use of snowmobiles throughout the Province. They have about 2,000 members.

MR. FRENCH: The only way for them to get – for trail development and so on. We would not provide funding, but the IBRDs of the world would provide that sort of mechanism for that.

I have talked about this with the industry people. I think there has to be some coming together there at some point down life's road of the ATV groups and the snowmobile groups. Not necessarily that they all have to have their meetings together or be in the same bed, but certainly work together when they are trying to leverage funding for trail upkeep and so on. I have suggested that to them. I have actually planned, in my own mind, to have a meeting at some point to bring everybody in the one room. Then you can deal with the IBRDs of the world and the ACOAs of the world for trail maintenance.

No, that is a constant battle, trying to keep ahead of the trail maintenance I am sure. This year they did have a very good year, or so I am told.

MR. JOYCE: Trail stickers, I am sure that is under your department also. Is there any way – and I go back to when the Member for Baie Verte was the minister, Paul Shelley.

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: He committed to have meetings out there, but it was never ever done. Is there any way that your department has regulations of what trails can be charged?

I will give you a good example, and I get a call every year on it. There is a group that goes in on Kruger's land, Kruger's road, for some reason that is where they bring in the groomer. There is a little trail that goes to the left, probably about 400 feet, and that is where their cabins are. It is a Kruger road, it has nothing to do with the trail way. It has nothing to do with government, but these people stand up and say we are going to charge you and you have to have a sticker.

Does the department have what is classified as a groomed trail? I said this back years ago, and I will say it again – I think they are great, by the way. I am not knocking the groomed trails. I think it helps everybody all around, but the problem is the groomers go along: Oh, there is another route, let's groom this now. It is something that was never supposed to be –

MR. FRENCH: I am sure we have an inventory of what is considered part of the trail network in the Province. I am sure that is –

MR. JOYCE: I ask this, and I am not sure if anybody can answer it now. Kruger road, is that a part of the groomed trail, private land?

MR. FRENCH: I would not be able to tell you. I do not know.

MR. JOYCE: Can someone –

MR. FRENCH: We can find that out for you.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, because –

MR. FRENCH: I will get you an answer, just give me one second.

(Inaudible) water got the best of me. Carry on. I am sorry about that.

MR. JOYCE: I thank the minister for getting that information so quick. If the department can also follow up on that later, to add to the information the minister just gave us – I thank the minister for that.

Destination Labrador in the Western Region: Is there any money in the budget this year for it?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, they got the same as they get every year, annual investment, $150,000.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The Colonial Building: Is there any federal funding in the Colonial Building?

MR. FRENCH: Yes. We invest about $13.2 million, a little over $8 million comes from the Building Canada Fund, and we have about $650,000, if I recall correctly, from the Canadian Heritage. We put in about $13 million of the $23 million, the Province; the rest is federally funded.

MR. JOYCE: The $4.4 million for the St. John's Convention Centre: Is that the only investment?

MR. FRENCH: Actually, it is about a $15 million investment. It is over a number of years. Every year you will see this line item in the budget.

MR. JOYCE: This is just this year's investment?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, but it is a commitment of $15 million, I think, or fourteen point something, so $15 million.

MR. JOYCE: The Centennial Celebrations of the Battle of Beaumont Hamel, is this still –

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is part of the World War I commemorations. The annual thing still exists and then we are hoping that for the one-hundredth anniversary, there will be something bigger and better. It is going to be over a number of years because we are going to celebrate a whole variety of special events that happened for the First World War.

MR. JOYCE: I will ask this question but it is leading up – and I know it is not your department. Last year, about 400,000 people came off Marine Atlantic in Port aux Basques. Can anybody in the department – and I know it is not your division, but I guess I will just ask for support for it because I hear it a lot on the West Coast. January, February and March, when you get 200, 300, 400 or 500 cars off that, the road is not plowed from Port aux Basques to the Stephenville turnoff; it is treacherous.

When I wrote the minister on behalf – and I know the Member for Burgeo – La Poile did. They said we will go on the amount of traffic. If anybody can tell me, explain to me – and I am going to ask again tonight – from the Trans-Canada Highway in just one turnoff, forget the two, just to turn off to Botwood is being plowed because of traffic; but from Port aux Basques, for those three months, to the Stephenville turnoff, which the government just changed a year to a year-and-a-half ago, it is just not plowed.

I think from a tourism point of view, Minister, it should be looked into. It does cause a lot of problems for a lot of tourists. Over the time, that is something I am not sure you are aware of or not, but it just does not get plowed. If a boat comes in there 9:00 o'clock at night or it is late, 12:00 o'clock the usual, if there are 500 or 600 cars going east, best of luck. Tractors and plows are taken off the highway completely, salt and sand gone, 9:00 o'clock back to the depot. It is just a little something for you to look into around your Cabinet colleagues.

The only other thing – and I mentioned about the Kruger roads, if you can get me the map of what is out for Western Newfoundland. It comes up to me every year.

MR. FRENCH: I am sure there is an inventory of what is a part of (inaudible).

MR. JOYCE: If someone in the department can check and see if Kruger land can be included? It is a private road and it is a Kruger road.

I thank you, Minister, and everybody again for your co-operation and forthright answers. Thank you for providing some information that I requested for later.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Okay, Mr. Joyce.

Mr. Mitchelmore, I will give you two minutes if you want to conclude before I ask for a vote on the adoption of the headings, or any last comments.

MR. MITCHELMORE: I certainly have more questions. Under 4.1.01, Recreation – Operations, under Grants and Subsidies there is a $525,000 reduction for 2013. I would like to know: What are the reductions, and what recreational groups and organizations are getting less money? That is a large chunk.

MR. FRENCH: There is nobody getting reductions actually. The biggest piece here, $500,000 of it is the Labrador Winter Games.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

MR. FRENCH: The Labrador Winter Games is not an annual event. That comes in and out of the budget, depending on the cycle of the event.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

The Grants and Subsidies as well under Community Sports Facilities are reduced by $20,000. You are not planning on seeing a huge decrease in the amount of playgrounds and recreational centres projects that will be impacted by this reduction overall?

MR. FRENCH: No, not at all.

MR. MITCHELMORE: I see some major issues when it comes to tourism around access and air access, good port access when it comes to the cruise ship industry. As Mr. Joyce has just talked about, road access is important, looking at things like car rentals during peak times, as well as good signage and wireless telecommunications infrastructure.

I have to say, the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation has really pushed forward a lot of good initiatives over the past number of years. I certainly want to thank the staff and you, as minister, for spearheading a lot of positive pieces when it comes to using technology, such as apps, the redesign of the Web page. Moving things forward in that way is really positive. We have a lot more work to do but I think we will work together, as your department and as well as Opposition, to try and push forward new initiatives to advance our tourism, cultural and recreational industries because they are so important to all of us.

I do think though, one final statement, is that when you look at losing a piece of infrastructure potentially, like the West Coast Training Centre, it has a big impact on the communities and the regions. We should try to do more to preserve these vital pieces of infrastructure that promote healthy lifestyles wherever we can and not necessarily just download that onto community groups and organizations. We have to look at it and take a good proactive approach to see how we can move forward on that.

I will just clue up.

MR. FRENCH: I thank you for your comments.

In particular, as you would know, we just made a significant investment in the new arena in St. Anthony; however, we do not staff it or program it. That is left to the town. It is a similar type. Like I said, we have invested $172 million in recreation infrastructure but when it comes to the programming of these facilities, it really has to be done locally on the ground, and that is where my head was on that.

MR. MITCHELMORE: I think one of the key things with your department is that it crosses so many other departments as well.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, it does.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Building strong partnerships is key.

One of the things we may be able to do with looking at recreational equipment and infrastructure in communities is looking at investing further in how to bring down the operational cost. I have been pushing things like biomass and pellets as a means to heat things like arenas. They are doing it in BC and the payback has been two to four years.

Those may be things we can look at so that if municipalities are offsetting their costs that way, they can then have more money for programming. Those are conversations that we really need to have overall.

I thank you, Minister, and your staff for all of this.

MR. FRENCH: Thanks.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Mitchelmore.

Before we say our final thank you to everybody, I would like a motion to adopt headings 1.1.01 to 4.1.02.

Motioned by the Member for Bonavista North; seconded by the Member for Lake Melville.

All those in favour, signify by saying ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Opposed?

Motion carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.1.02 carried.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Again, I would like to thank the Committee members and their staff, and the Clerk.

CLERK: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Oh, sorry.

We carried the total of all the headings.

On motion, Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, total heads carried.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation carried without amendment.

CHAIR: I would also to thank the minister and his staff.

Minister, I will give you the last minute or so, if you would like to say anything relevant to the Estimates and the Budget this year for your department.

MR. FRENCH: No, just thanks very much.

Like I said, any time you are looking for information as critic, in your critic roles, feel free to call or drop me an e-mail and I will be more than happy to provide it. I try to keep that system in place. We might not always agree on how the money is spent, but I will certainly share with you my thoughts on it at any time.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you.

A motion to adjourn?

MR. JOYCE: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by the Member for Bay of Islands.

All those in favour, signify by saying ‘aye'.

I think we need a seconder.

CLERK: No, you don't need a seconder.

CHAIR: No, we don't need a seconder for that.

All those in favour, signify by saying ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Opposed?

Motion carried. Committee adjourned.

Thank you.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.