The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in Room 5083.

CHAIR (Mr. Ridgley): The lights are on so we are ready to roll. I will ask the members of the Committee to introduce themselves, please.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, MHA for the District of Port au Grave.

MS E. MARSHALL: Beth Marshall, MHA for the District of Topsail.

MR. YOUNG: Wally Young, MHA for the District of St. Barbe, substituting for Kathy Goudie.

MR. FRENCH: Terry French, MHA for the District of Conception Bay South and Holyrood.

CHAIR: I would ask the Minister to introduce herself, and I guess the staff can so the same for themselves.

MS BURKE: Joan Burke, Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for the Status of Women. Do you want me to introduce the officials or will they introduce themselves?

CHAIR: Entirely up to you, Minister, whichever is better.

MS BURKE: Go ahead, Rick.

MR. HAYWARD: Rick Hayward, ADM, Corporate Services.

MR. HOLLETT: Bruce Hollett, Deputy Minister.

MR. DENINE: Dave Denine, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister.

MS COCHRANE: Rachelle Cochrane, ADM, Advanced Education.

MR. THOMPSON: Jack Thompson, Director of Financial Services.

CHAIR: Thank you all.

Just one thing which we have learned in the four or five we have had so far and I will mention at the outset of this, is that if you are a member of the Committee doing questioning, just out of regard for the staff and the minister, if you decide to leave we will assume that you have finished questioning rather than leave for an extended period and then come back and start questioning again, because there may very well have been topics covered in your absence. That really would not really be fair to anybody.

Minister, I will ask the Clerk to call the first subhead.

CLERK (Calvin Lake): Thank you.

Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall subhead 1.1.01 carry?

Minister, we will turn it to you then for your introductory comments.

MS BURKE: No, I am ready to start.

CHAIR: The minister is ready to roll there, so I guess, Mr. Butler, it is over to you.

MR. BUTLER: Yes. I just wanted to explain, Mr. Chair, first, that the Member for Cartwright will be here shortly, but I will be staying, apart from probably going out to the washroom when she gets here, but I will not be leaving to come back and ask questions.

CHAIR: Okay.

When the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair shows up, if there are questions that have been covered in her absence and she happens to ask them you will understand if the members or the minister or the people indicate that we have already dealt with them.

MR. BUTLER: I think I will take care of that because I am going with the subheads, just the figures, and I think she will be only asking questions on the Status of Women.

CHAIR: Okay. Thank you very much.

All yours.

MR. BUTLER: All right.

The first one is page 169, subhead 1.2.01. That is under Executive Support, the Salaries. I notice the budgeted was for $812,000, then it was revised to $918,100, and this year again it is estimated to be $868,600. I was just wondering what created the differences there,

MS BURKE: The difference was, there were increased expenditures in relation to severance and annual leave payouts. This number, the $868,600, is the salaries plus there is $56,500 up from the 2005-2006 original budget. That is the negotiated salary increase plus the secretarial support for the Director of Communications.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Subhead 2.1.01, Transportation and Communications: I was just wondering if you could give me a rundown on those. I know the budgeted this year was the same as the budgeted was revised to, $357,000. If you could just give a breakdown of what that entailed.

MS BURKE: What was the question again?

MR. BUTLER: I am just wondering could you give me the breakdown on the Transportation and Communications under that heading? That is 2.1.01.03, Administrative Support.

MR. HAYWARD: That basically consists of three items, the departmental mail budget of around $318,000, the travel component for the administrative staff in human resources and finance of $23,600, and telephone of $32,600 in this fiscal year. They will go up and down. The revised is down a little because of the fluctuation in those expenditures.

MR. BUTLER: Under the same heading, under 05, Professional Services, I know last year it was budgeted and revised to $25,000, this year it is $550,000. I was just wondering -

MS BURKE: There is an additional $150,000 this year for the independent review of the ISSP process. We also announced $250,000 which will be the review of the teacher allocation formula, and there is $125,000 put aside for a dedicated resource to deal with the school councils.

MR. BUTLER: That was the announcements that were in the Budget for those two or three programs?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 2.1.02, Grants and Subsidies: I know last year it was revised to $2 million, but really this year it has gone to $3,110,000. I am just wondering what the -

MS BURKE: This year we have for the Newfoundland and Labrador Women's Institute, $34,800; for the Council of the Ministers of Education, CMEC, $34,500; Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Schools Councils, $30,000; Newfoundland and Labrador School Boards Association, the industrial relations officer, one position, $59,600; provincial membership in the Atlantic Provinces Education Foundation is $129,400; the Newfoundland Fine Arts program is $1.2 million; the Brother TI Murphy Centre is $516,000; Encounters with Canada is $21,600; the Licensed Practical Nurse program is $267,300, Atlantic Provinces Community College Consortium, which is the APCCC, is $30,000; Learning Disability Association of Newfoundland and Labrador is $25,000; assistance to educational agencies for C-Map for the Pan-Canadian Assessment, $40,000, the Healthy Schools initiative, the school food guidelines, is $250,000; the apprenticeship training program for skilled trades persons is $300,000; and the national Interchange on Canadian Studies conference is $150,000.

MR. BUTLER: The next heading is 2.1.04, Administrative Support. I know this is a savings and you will probably say: Why are you asking questions on that one? I know there was $30,000 last year and there is none this year. I am just wondering if that was a one time expenditure, I guess.

MS BURKE: That is in relation to information technology which as September 1 became the responsibility of the OCIO.

MR. BUTLER: Under 3.1.01, Substitute Teachers: I know the figures there are fairly consistent, but it is a fairly large number. I was just wondering, has anything been done just to look at the format and see what is causing all substitute teachers - I am not saying there is anything wrong with it, maybe it is all legitimate and above board but it is up in the (inaudible).

MS BURKE: The policy for hiring substitute teachers, is that what you are asking about?

MR. BUTLER: Basically. Really, I suppose, is there any duplication that probably could be eliminated to cut back on that number?

MS BURKE: The substitute teachers - Rick, you can jump in on this as well - would be hired according to their collective agreement, so it would be based on a teacher being seconded into another position and not being available for work, and the collective agreement would allow for somebody to be hired to do their services. We would not hire substitute teachers if it was not according to why we needed them in the schools or whatever.

MR. BUTLER: Would that entail, for instance, someone who is off sick and you would get a substitute in the morning; a last minute call. That would be included in that figure?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Under 3.1.02, item10, Student Assistants. That is increased from $10.982 million to $11.221 million. I was wondering, does that mean there were more hours or an increase in pay?

MS BURKE: That would be the negotiated salary increase.

MR. BUTLER: Probably a lot of those I am going to be asking would be the same question.

MS BURKE: That is fair enough.

MR. BUTLER: Under 3.1.03, Native Peoples' Education: Is that where they have their new governance now?

MS BURKE: Yes, it is.

MR. BUTLER: I thought it was, but I said I would ask the question. There are probably a couple there like that.

Under 3.1.05, School Supplies, item 04, Supplies: I know it was budgeted last year for $5.7 million and went to $9.7 million. I was just wondering about the difference there. I know it is up again this year, and that is probably understandable through your Budget announcements or whatever.

MS BURKE: Under this, we have invested $450,000 in technology curriculum from K to 12, as well as $1.1 million into the applied route to graduation which is the courses in the trade skills; $2.2 million in laboratory and safety equipment; and $1 million in consumables.

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 3.1.06.10 Grants and Subsidies under Special Measures, last year, I know, it was budgeted and revised the same, and this year it is $2,500,000.

MS BURKE: Rick?

MR. HAYWARD: If you look ahead to 3.2.02, Mr. Butler, these are federal programs related to French language programs. Last year the amount to be voted was $3.541 million in Language Programs and in 3.1.06 it was $1.4 million, so that is around $4.9 million. This year we spend the $2.9 million in Language Programs and the $2.7 million. It is really reallocation by the federal government between the two programs. Their level of commitment has gone up a bit, I think, from $4.9 million to $5.6 million. It is just how they spend their funding in the federal system and how they fund it.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, Sir.

Subhead 3.1.09, School Facilities - New Construction and Alterations to Existing Facilities: We have there the revised last year was $5 million and this year it is $17 million. I am wondering what new schools or what renovations for schools would be included in that?

MR. HAYWARD: That would be cash flows on Herdman and Mobile being different in 2005-2006 than 2006-2007, particularly the project in Corner Brook on Herdman which is going to go from around $3 million to $7 million this year. That accounts for part of the difference. The other part of the difference is that there is $6.5 million in there to address the long-term plan requirements under the school board Capital Construction Program.

MR. BUTLER: Six point five million?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: What of the $6.5 million would be, say, for new school construction? I am not saying it is going ahead but I heard in our area - I will just use one as an example, Ascension Collegiate - there are supposed to be renovations. I am sure the same is right throughout the school board. Out of that $6.5 million, would you know what would be going for new school construction as versus renovations to some of the other buildings where the students will be moving from one school to the other?

MS BURKE: What is being renovated versus what is being built now?

MR. HAYWARD: There is $7 million in there for Herdman, $5 million for Mobile and $1.4, I believe, for Leary's Brook. The other $6.5 has not been allocated yet, Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: That would be hinging on, I guess, the final report, not only from the Eastern School Board District but from all the districts in the Province. Would that be correct?

MS BURKE: Right, and it would include new school construction as well as renovations. They might want to build a new wing on or take a wing off or something, or a new school. As they finalize their plans and they come in to government, that pot of money will be allocated for that.

MR. BUTLER: You say there will be $6.5 million there?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Subhead 3.2.01, Curriculum Development, under 05, Professional Services, $17,700 to $667,700. I am just wondering if you can explain that one for me.

MS BURKE: There is $300,000 to develop the courses for the applied route to graduation - the skilled trades route we should be calling it, not the applied route -$50,000 for the technology curriculum review from K-12, and there is $300,000 for the Newfoundland and Labrador history course.

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 3.2.02 - I am sorry, you clarified that one from the other day. It is just one we went ahead to. I apologize for that one.

Subhead 3.4.04, Grants and Subsidies: The one in Salaries, would that be for additional staff being hired, the $331,600 to $447,800.

MR. HAYWARD: That is correct. We have allocated a couple of extra IT support positions in CDLI this year and that is why the increase in salaries.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

I guess the Transportation and Communications, the increase there, the $200,000 or $100 and some-odd thousand, would be applicable to the increase in the staff.

MS BURKE: It is the net effect of the increases to the connectivity costs and then a reallocation within the CDLI block. I guess, it is the cost of doing business.

MR. BUTLER: Under 3.4.05, Grants and Subsidies, I know they budgeted $4.8 million and the revised was $1 million and now it is $5.9 million. From the budgeted revised down to the $1 million, could you explain that one to me?

MR. HAYWARD: That is the Broadband project that the Province has partnered with the federal government and a local IT supplier. It is $30 million program cost-shared by the private sector of the Province and the federal government. We had budgeted $5 million this year but we only spent $1 million because of the environmental assessment process and that kind of thing. In 2006-2007, we will be spending $6 million cost-shared with the federal government, and in the following year we will be spending the remainder of our $10 million in funding in total between the two levels of government.

MR. BUTLER: I guess it is in relation to the 4.1.01, Post Secondary Education. This is just a question, it is not from one of the lines there. I was wondering if the minister or one of your officials could provide the latest report on the operations of private institutions being carried out. Not so much this year, but over a period of time we used to hear a lot about the private institutions and so on. I was wondering how that is working out now?

MS COCHRANE: We have about thirty private schools operating in the Province today and about 2,700 to 3,000 students. We do not have anywhere near the issues we used to have with respect to institutions closing and students being displaced. We have operated with the new train-out fund that helps train students if an institution closes. We also have a fair degree of co-operation within the private college association now. If there is indication that a institution may close, there is an agreement with other operators and they will come in and train out those students so the flow of train-out is fairly smooth. We have not had any recent closures in the last several years.

MR. BUTLER: While I am on that vein, I guess: With regard to the private schools and the other colleges, as well as the university, could someone give me a figure of approximately how many young people would graduate at any given year in this Province overall?

MS BURKE: From high school or post secondary?

MR. BUTLER: Post-secondary, yes.

MS BURKE: I should have that here.

MS COCHRANE: We have about 3,000 to 4,000 graduating from Memorial every year. Those are round numbers. We would have certainly a couple of thousand, maybe 3,000, at the College of the North Atlantic because their programs are shorter in duration so they graduate much more frequently. At the privates, I would estimate we would probably have 1,500 graduates a year as well. In terms of enrollment, there are 18,000 students enrolled at the University, we have about 6,000 at the College of the North Atlantic, and we have about 3,000 students enrolled in private colleges.

MR. BUTLER: If I caught the figures right, you are saying approximately somewhere between 6,000 and 6,500 would graduate each year from the different institutions?

MS COCHRANE: Yes, that would be about right. Less at the University because their programs span about four years, so even thought they have 18,000 enrolled, on an average basis they would only graduate about 3,000 to 4,000.

MR. BUTLER: I do not mean to be sarcastic, but you wouldn't be able to tell me how many of those have to leave our Province, because we would need a big turn over regardless of what is happening here in the Province - do you know what I'm saying? - to hire on all of those trained and skilled people, the 6,500 in any given year.

MS COCHRANE: We do have those numbers. It is in our Career Search document which we have been publishing for nearly twenty years now. We track out-migration of graduates by each institution type. We do have it for Memorial, the college and private colleges. The out-migration of Memorial graduates has been falling. There are more graduates now staying in the Province than ever before.

MR. BUTLER: You wouldn't have the numbers right there now, say of the 6,500? Just approximate.

MS COCHRANE: It is around 72 per cent to 75 per cent at the University, and for the private colleges and the College of the North Atlantic it is more in the range of 85 per cent or 87 per cent staying in-Province.

MR. BUTLER: The University was what, I'm sorry?

MS COCHRANE: It is between 72 per cent and 75 per cent who would stay in-Province, and at the college and the private colleges the number who stay in-Province would be much higher, more in the 80 per cent to 85 per cent range.

MR. BUTLER: I know this year there is money in for various skills and trades people to try and get more because we know there is a shortage coming down the road anyway. Based on that, do you foresee many more people coming into the system. If that is the rate we are keeping here now, up around 70 per cent and 80 per cent, that is higher than I though it would have been anyway. What do you foresee the figures would have to be to reach the goal we are talking about, Minister, with regard to skilled people, if they are staying in the Province at this rate, to meet the demand say a few years down the road for skills people?

MS BURKE: Actually, that is something that we have embarked on through the Skills Task Force that we have set up. The Department of Human Resources, Labour and Employment has been involved in - and I do not know if it is completed yet - two research studies on the labour market, so we have been getting the research done. Now we need to be able to find out what the gaps are, what the capacities of the colleges are now compared to what they are going to need to be and where we need to focus the programs. We do not have that full information yet but we certainly think that is very necessary as we move forward to make sure that the programs that we offer in the colleges are applicable to what the labour market demands are going to be. We can have some wonderful programs but if they do not match to what the demands are going to be, or the demands in this Province, we are not going to be able to retain the graduates as you have indicated. It is just something that we are very concerned about.

MR. BUTLER: That was my next question. I was wondering: With the information you would have, what shortages are we looking at more or less? I will just use the trades, say plumbers, carpenters, brick layers, that types of trade - I do not want to downgrade those people because I was one of those myself - or higher skilled people, up say in the engineering fields and things like that? Where do you see the biggest shortages, probably?

MS BURKE: I do not know exactly, but it is going to be that full range because it is going to be, I think, on both ends. Where the biggest gap is going to be, whether it is in the highly technical jobs in the oil and gas industry or in the traditional skilled trades, I am not sure where it is going to be. That is the type of information that we certainly need. I would think, based on the labour market and certainly our demographics and on the baby boomers as they retire, we are probably going to see substantial gaps in many areas.

CHAIR: Mr. Butler, pardon me for a second. Just for the benefit of the people doing the recording, I just want to note that Ms Yvonne Jones just joined the committee.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. BUTLER: My next question is on 4.1.03, the Atlantic Veterinary College in P.E.I.. I was just wondering, that $634,000 where it says Grants and Subsidies, is that for people after they finish university here or post-secondary or high school and they move on to go to college there? What is that amount of money used for?

MS BURKE: That is our share, as the Province, as to what we pay to the Atlantic Veterinary College, because there is only one, I guess, in Atlantic Canada. We contribute to that college on an annual basis in order to have access to some seats in that program.

MR. BUTLER: It has nothing to do with assisting anybody going there per say?

MS BURKE: No. This is a grant to the college itself.

MR. BUTLER: I guess that helps with - I know there is a summer program there, a three-week summer program, because my grandson got selected this year. I think there were 500 or 600 applied from across the country. They go there in July for four or five days a week. I guess that is all tied in with it and that is why you get so many picked here from this Province and other provinces as well.

MS BURKE: Right. That is what guarantees the number of seats for people from Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. BUTLER: Because he is only in Grade 8 or Grade 9, but they take him there in the summertime.

MS BURKE: I am not sure if this grant covers that. I guess we contribute to the college for people who go into the studies, the full-time studies, to be veterinarians. Being able to maintain the college, I guess, gives them access to offer a variety of programs other than that particular program.

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 4.1.05, Professional Services, Adult Learning and Literacy, I know there was nothing there for 2005-2006 and $228,400 estimated for 2006-2007.

MS BURKE: That is in relation to the curriculum review that we are doing for the Adult Basic Education and the GED program.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Seeing that you mentioned that program, how did it work out? The one in Deer Lake had to close. Where did they go to after, the students who were there?

MS BURKE: The College of the North Atlantic in Deer Lake offered Level I and II. When we, I guess, stopped the funding for the Deer Lake Learning Centre, out of the seven students I think three should have been in Level II so they went right on into Level II which was offered at the College of the North Atlantic, and the College expanded their courses to be able to accommodate the others who were in Level I. They stayed in Deer Lake and they moved into the College of the North Atlantic.

MR. BUTLER: So, they are all still in the program, basically?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I guess I know the answer - I do not know the answer, no, but I will surmise what is coming on this one. Subhead 4.2.02, Physical Plant and Equipment: I know you announced in your Budget about new equipment for the different colleges and so on. I guess that is what that is in relation to, CONA and so on, is it?

MS BURKE: Which one are we -

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 4.2.02.10, Grants and Subsidies, from $7,900,000 to $20,400,000.

MS BURKE: Yes.

That is an additional $13 million in block funding capital for Memorial University.

MR. BUTLER: Oh, it is just for Memorial University.

MS BURKE: Right.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, I am sorry.

Was it also mentioned, something about equipment for the others, like the College of the North Atlantic? That is probably under another heading, is it?

MS BURKE: Right.

MR. BUTLER: Oh yes, it is the next page.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Mr. Chair, I can pass over now. That is all of mine on those issues here. If Ms Jones -

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Butler.

Ms Jones.

MR. BUTLER: I did not ask any questions, only on the subheads and figures, so you can go right into -

CHAIR: We indicated at the beginning, that if there were duplicate questions it would certainly be within the purview of the staff or the minister to say: We have dealt with it already.

MS JONES: Okay.

CHAIR: I don't think it will be, because Mr. Butler just indicated that he would do the line items from start down to where we just stopped.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Minister and officials for being here this evening.

I have a couple of questions. I am going to start with my district, I guess. Back in the 2004 Budget, there was funding on the table to do a K to 6 school for L'Anse au Loup, and it was put on hold by government in that budget year. I understand since then the board has been through a number of exercises in terms of looking at the configuration of schools in that particular area. From their web site I can gather they passed a motion or a recommendation to the department that there should be one school in that area. I am just wondering if it has been considered by the department at this stage and what the plan is for that area.

MS BURKE: They did give notice of the motion, but they will be doing a public consultation process before they come back to the Department of Education with a plan or with any requests. I understand they will start engaging in that process. They indicated that they had engaged in a public consultation, but a number of years had passed and they felt in fairness that they should update what they have been doing up there on a local level.

MS JONES: When would you anticipate those consultations to occur? Would it be in the fall? I mean, we are getting near the end of the school year, I guess?

MR. HOLLETT: They have not indicated to us exactly when they are going to do those consultations, but we are expecting that they would probably begin them this spring and summer, maybe leading into the fall.

MS JONES: They also made a motion to close the school in Lodge Bay to bus kids to Mary's Harbour - I think it is a K to 7 school there now - and also a motion in Pinsent Arm, where there is a K to 6 school, to close that school and to bus those children to Charlottetown. Have those motions or recommendations been accepted by the department, or what is the course of action from here?

MS BURKE: It is my understanding they do not have any of their consultations done on any of those closures. It seems they have put the motions to the floor, but they will have to do their consultation process before they being it back to vote, before it comes into the Department of Education.

MS JONES: Is it normal practice for a board to make decisions like this before consultation?

MS BURKE: It depends. Once they put a motion to the floor for a closure they then have to engage in a consultation process. They can do consultation prior to if they want as well, but once they put the motion to the floor they do have to have a consultation before they vote on it. So, yes, it would be the procedure they follow.

MS JONES: What I am asking is: Does the consultation process in essence change the motion once it is made or is it just an exercise in practice then?

MS BURKE: It could, as in Swift Current. That was a motion to reconfigure, and based on the consultation process and the vote what was put to the floor was not necessarily what was passed.

MS JONES: Okay.

There was some funding in the Budget to share for new school construction. Can you tell me what schools are going to be constructed out of that?

MS BURKE: We have already answered that. Answer it again?

CHAIR: It has being dealt with, Ms Jones.

MS JONES: Is that right? Do you have the response?

MR. BUTLER: It is my understanding (inaudible).

MS JONES: So that money may not even get spent this year?

MS BURKE: It would depend, I guess, on what comes forward as projects that are recommended by boards. They do not all have their plans in right now.

MS JONES: When do boards usually finalize their plans for a current budget year?

MR. HOLLETT: In terms of their operational budgets, they would have those finalized, certainly their requests, in the fall of the proceeding year, and they cannot finalized their budgets, of course, until they get their allocation from us.

With respect to capital, this year is slightly different because last year in the Budget we provided $250,000 for the boards to go and develop long-term capital plans. They have gone ahead and done full capital plans for the district. This year is a bit of an unusual year.

MS JONES: Have you guys saved any money in the last two years on reconfiguration of schools in your department?

MR. HOLLETT: On reconfiguration of schools, we do the teacher allocations based on total enrolments and there would have been some savings, although I do not have that figure, with respect to the operating grant to schools and certainly in utility costs when there was less square footage, less to heat, less to light, et cetera. I do not have the figure in terms of what savings have accrued because of school closures.

MS JONES: Can you get me the information in terms of how much would have been saved through reconfiguration in the past two years?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes, we can attempt to put that together.

MR. HAYWARD: Last year, the department accumulated around $1 million in savings from school closures. Through the special incentives initiatives, the school boards retain that $1 million for the first three years to do equipment upgrades or other kind of capital upgrades. After the third year, the money accumulates in the school board allocation. It is not reduced, it is just reallocated to cover utility costs, to cover employee costs and other inflationary costs in the board before we come to government looking for more money. I think the number is around $30 million since 1997 that has accumulated to government. That has all been reinvested in the education system. There has been no clawback of that money.

MS JONES: The reinvestment program you have had on the go since 2003-2004, I guess, or 2004-2005 it would have been, is a three-year program?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes. If a school had closed in 2002, the school board would have had that savings to utilize for a one-time cost up until 2005. Then in 2005-2006, that money would go into school board allocation and be reallocated to the other boards to deal with inflationary pressures.

MS JONES: Any board that gets to keep the savings from reconfiguration, that does not come off their base budget for that year?

MR. HAYWARD: No.

MS BURKE: It is additional capital money that they can use.

MS JONES: Do any of the school boards in the Province run an annual deficit now or do they have any accumulated debt?

MR. HAYWARD: The Auditor General's Report dealt with that issue last year. There is one school board carrying an accumulated deficit and that is the Labrador board. They have a deficit recovery plan and they are paying that out over a number of years, Ms Jones.

MS JONES: What is their accumulated deficit now?

MR. HAYWARD: Around $1 million.

MS JONES: One million?

MR. HAYWARD: One million, and that is the only board that is in an accumulated deficit account.

MS JONES: Did any of the boards run deficits this year?

MR. HAYWARD: No, they did not.

On a cash basis there are some accrual issues that the Province do not fund, like the difference between accrued leave and severance from one year to the other. We provide for, basically, cash expenses. The Auditor General makes reference to that, that there is an accumulated liability that accrues because teachers earn severance and earn other entitlements that do not get paid out from one year to the other.

MS JONES: Yes, I understand that. Thank you.

Was there any extra money allocated to the Labrador School Board this year?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, in 2005-06, due to the unusual circumstances in Labrador, there was $100,000 in additional funding allocated to the board to deal with some issues that are not really funded by the formula. So, we are working -

MS JONES: What about this year's Budget?

MR. HAYWARD: In this year's Budget, for school board operations there is additional funding allocated for utilities and also to assess the staffing levels in the school boards.

MS JONES: That is for all boards, though, is it?

MR. HAYWARD: It is for all boards.

MS JONES: Yes. What about for the Labrador board, in particular? Was there any additional funding in the 2006 Budget?

MR. HAYWARD: No.

MS JONES: I am asking because I did sit through the budget presentation of the school board to the Minister of Finance when they had the public consultations. I did not bring the presentation with me, or the documentation, but there were a number of issues that were raised, very legitimate issues, and I think they probably are the same issues that would have caused them to accumulate a deficit over the past number of years. I thought, with the extra money being allocated by government now, that some of these issues would have gotten addressed. Most of them were existing around the school system in the Northern region of Labrador. It included a number of things, not just maintenance and stuff on facilities, but other things as well that they felt needed to be done or changed there. I am just asking, based on their presentation to the Department of Finance and the minister, if any of those things were addressed. I am understanding now that they were not.

MS BURKE: Well, if it is related to capital or renovations - and I am not sure what you are talking about - there is money allocated there. As the school boards come forward with their plans, if it is anything to do with the physical structure, maintenance or renovations, it certainly (inaudible).

MS JONES: It had to do with their bottom line maintenance budget, the amount they are allocated per board. For example, every time there is a school broken into in one of the communities, they have to fly in people to do the repairs to fix it. They have had to fly in furnace parts, they have had to fly in plumbers, and they have had to do all this in the middle of the winter and it has become very expensive. One of the issues that they raised was having their maintenance budget for their board increase to a more adequate level to reflect what their true costs were on an annual basis.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, that was one of the reasons that in 2005-2006 we provided the $100,000 that I referred to earlier.

MS JONES: Yes, in last year's Budget.

MR. HAYWARD: We will be working with the board to determine their requirements as we go through the budget process this year. There were some general increases in allocations to the boards. We will work through that with the board, but nothing specific.

MS JONES: Has the Labrador Board made any requests to do any work with the Cartwright school at all? Does anybody know?

MR. HAYWARD: Every school board provides us, as we go through the budget process, with a list of capital maintenance requires like roofs, windows, that kind of thing. If you want to go to your next question while I check the list. I will check the list as you are going to your next question and see if there is anything there for Cartwright? Every school board identifies -

MS JONES: When you are checking you might want to also check and see if there was any request to occupy the additional square footage for that board in that school. This school does not have a gymnasium. There is a gymnasium in the community and it was built with the understanding and an agreement from the board at the time that they would enter into a joint use agreement. The same was done in two other communities on the North Coast where there were joint use agreements, for a number of years, existing in the department.

When the school was built in Cartwright, because of the construction, the engineering or whatever happened, there were some defaults with the building. The building had to be brought up to standard and money was invested to do that. Still the school board did not take over that particular gymnasium. One of the things, when it was talked about, was that instead of having a gym in the school and a gym in the community this made the most sense, of course, but there would have been a corridor built between the school and the gymnasium. That is why today the gym is built only a few feet from the school, because that was the whole purpose of it. The kids in that school still do not use this gymnasium. They have never been able to use it as part of the school curriculum. There is no proper physical education program in the school because they do not have a gymnasium that they can use.

I am wondering what the board is doing about it. Are they making any representation to the department at all to have this issue, I guess, fixed or clarified or whatever the case may be?

MR. HOLLETT: We have had some discussions with the school board about the community gym in Cartwright. There is a gymnasium/auditorium in the school today which is used for most programs. Certain programs they would have some difficulty doing there like floor hockey, for example, because there are gyproc walls in the school gymnasium.

MS JONES: Have you been in the auditorium, I have to ask you, that is there?

MR. HOLLETT: No, I have not.

MS JONES: It is a theatre in a room, it is not a gymnasium. It is full of windows, it is gyproc walls. It is not designed to be a gymnasium, it is designed to put off school plays and to have school luncheons or whatever you want to do, sell raffle tickets or something. It is not a gymnasium.

MR. HOLLETT: The community gymnasium itself, there are some deficiencies with that building now. We are told that there are some leaks in the building. We would have to have an independent study done on the community gymnasium before it could be assessed what the cost of bringing it up to standard would be before we could entertain a formal proposal from the board, or enter into formal discussions about the school board actually taking over that gymnasium for use by the school. One of the other costs, of course, would be the construction of a link between the school and the gymnasium, which we have estimated at about $70,000.

MS JONES: I agree that there are some defaults with the gymnasium that is there, and a lot of that is due to the fact that nobody is looking after it, it is neglected. The town does not look after it, they do not have a budget. The recreation committee does not look after it, they do not have a budget. Actually, in the last two years the only reason that the heat stayed on in that building is because I went out and got companies in the Province to donate fuel to put in the tanks to keep the building going, and because the Minister of Labrador Affairs gives us $2,000 every year to pay the light bill. That is the only reason that the facility is even open. No one is responsible anymore for the upkeep of it. That is really sad, because it is a brand new building and it is in good shape. It has some defaults but nothing that cannot be fixed. There is probably about $800,000 or more invested in this structure, and the children in this community are going without a gymnasium and I think that it is unacceptable.

I really feel that between the board and the Department of Education they should seriously look at this issue and decide how it is going to be dealt with. If the department and the school board are ready to go out and just condemn the whole facility, well then that is your choice, but in the meantime you had better have another plan because it is not going to be tolerated any longer. These kids have waited long enough. In the first year that the gymnasium was built it probably had more occupancy than any other facility in my district that is being used for sports. As soon as the community fell on hard times, the tax base was reduced, the plant nearly closed down, the money just wasn't in the community to maintain it anymore, and the school board did not follow through and there ended the bargain, as was agreed upon prior to the construction of it.

I want to ask today, you Minister and your officials, to contact the school board and to start working with them to try and do something for these children to ensure that they have a proper gymnasium.

MS BURKE: We have made contact with the school board actually and have asked them what their intentions were. We are waiting to hear back as to if they want to continue and have a study done. We have made that contact with them. That was done probably back in late February or early March.

MS JONES: They haven't reported back to you yet with a plan?

MS BURKE: No, they haven't come back to indicate what their plan is.

MS JONES: Can we get back to the Labrador budget again, Rick?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes. I just looked at the request for the Labrador board. They have two requests in there for the Henry Gordon Academy in the school construction and maintenance Budget allocation. One of these is one of their top priorities. We will be assessing those projects as we go through the year in providing funding.

MS JONES: What is it they are looking for?

MR. HAYWARD: They are looking for roofing for Henry Gordon Academy and wheelchair accessability.

MS JONES: The school in Black Tickle is a K to 12 school. Has the board made any decisions around whether that will continue to operate as K to 12, or if they are looking at changing that in the future?

MS BURKE: Would Black Tickle be under the Western board or the Labrador board?

MS JONES: The Labrador board.

MR. HAYWARD: We are still waiting on the Labrador board's long-term plan. There are no decisions on that particular school until we get the plan and they go through their public consultation process.

MS JONES: When do they usually do that?

MR. HAYWARD: The funding was provided in 2005-2006 Budget for all the boards to do their plans. The Labrador board is still working on theirs. The three other boards on the Island are finished theirs; they are in different phases of completion.

MS JONES: All the others are finished except that one?

MS BURKE: No, not all. The Western is not finished, nor is Eastern.

MS JONES: The arts program that you announced the other day: Is any of that money going into the Labrador schools? The $25,000 arts program was announced the other day. You made the statement in the House.

MS BURKE: The $25,000 for the Visiting Artist Program?

MS JONES: Yes.

MS BURKE: All school boards will have access to that funding.

MS JONES: How are they going to be selected, because obviously there is not enough there for all the schools.

MR. HOLLETT: The plan there would be: Each of the boards would make proposals to the department on how they would wish to spend that money.

MS JONES: They would just make a proposal to the department?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes, they would make a proposal based on a particular program.

MS JONES: If you do not have an arts program in your school, are you still eligible? I do not have any arts programs in the schools in my district.

MR. HOLLETT: Yes they would be, because last year, for example, I know we had some. I do not recall who the people were, but we had some of the musical arts people go up and do tours within some of the schools in Labrador, for example. They went out on the Coast.

MS JONES: Was that program cut? I remember back a number of years ago there used to be visiting artists going into school in my district all the time. I was surprised when the announcement came about the program, because I always thought it was there.

MS BURKE: That had been in place and had been cut in the mid-nineties. It is reinstated.

MS JONES: It must have been there since then, because I remember only four or five years ago Fergus O'Byrne and different people like that going around my district in the schools.

MS BURKE: There are two other programs as well. There is the Arts Smarts Program and the Cultural Connections program. So there are actually three programs. It could have been one of those two as well.

MS JONES: They are all similar, are they?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS JONES: How come we do not have one program instead of three; just out of curiosity?

MR. HOLLETT: Some of the programs are very targeted at specific, for example, visitation by artists to schools. Some of them, including the arts and culture strategy last year, were a direct investment in music teachers and in musical equipment, et cetera, for schools. While they are all targeted within a broad arts and cultural strategy, they, in many cases, would have slightly different purposes.

MS JONES: How are the artists selected for that kind of a program? Do they just volunteer?

MS BURKE: It would be with the boards and their coordinators. A lot of what we are trying to get at there is introducing the students to their local artists, because really there is so much talent in every part of Newfoundland and Labrador. We have so many artists out there that the students should be able to access people of interest to them as opposed to always the big names we all know. Probably in Labrador and over in Bay St. George there are many artists who are probably not known on a provincial level but certainly would have something to share within the classrooms and with the students who would probably know their work quite well.

MS JONES: Once a school applied and was selected for the program, then the board would select who the artist was that came in. I am just trying to figure out how it works?

MR. HOLLETT: It is not necessarily that rigid a process. In reality, what happens between the curriculum and the program consultants within the Department of Education, the program specialists at the school board and the individual schools, they would have discussions about what types of programs or what types of visitations would be most advantageous and they would develop a plan, really on a consultative basis and a collaborative basis, over the course of the year. That is the practical way that it works as opposed to the department and/or the board sitting and waiting for a specific school to make a proposal, while that might happen.

MS JONES: Does the program kick in immediately or in September?

MR. HOLLETT: The money is on a fiscal year basis. I would expect that the bulk of it would commence in September. If a particular school had a good project that they wanted to do and their was enough time before the end of the school year to do it, we certainly would not exclude them from doing that.

MS JONES: The applications are online, I guess, that the schools have to fill out?

MR. HOLLETT: I do not think there is a formal application form. I would have to check on that.

MS JONES: You just write the department, do you?

MR. HOLLETT: You would have to talk to the board.

MS JONES: I am asking because I had a call on it yesterday and I did not know the answer they needed.

What do you do, just write the department?

MR. HOLLETT: I think what should happen there is that if a school has an idea, they should talk to the board and the curriculum people at the department and determine the best way to -

MS JONES: So, it has to go through the board?

MR. HOLLETT: It should involve the board, yes.

MS JONES: Okay, I misunderstood. I thought you said earlier that the department would make the decision on who got the projects or who got the programs or whatever. They do not, so it is the board.

Back last year, in the middle of a by-election in Bishop's Falls, Minister, you made a decision to overturn a decision of the board with regard to the closure of the school there. Today we have a similar situation going on in Swift Current. From questions today from my colleague, it does not seem like you are as inclined to do the same in Swift Current. I would like to know how you justify your actions that would overturn the board decision in Bishop's Falls, but yet you are not prepared to do it for other areas where parents are expressing concerns?

MS BURKE: Well, I will just clarify one thing: I wasn't the Minister of Education at the time, so I would not have had any authority over the decision at that time. I am certainly -

MS JONES: Same government, though, I think.

MS BURKE: I know, but I just wanted to correct that. It was said on the record and I just wanted to make that correction.

Basically, I am listening to what the boards are saying. They are coming back with some plans. Any plans for reconfigurations or school closures that do not necessarily hinge on capital expenditures that have to be approved by the Department of Education are certainly done at the full responsibility of the board and their authority under the Schools Act. Any issues that come from the board with regard to school closures or reconfigurations that are contingent upon financial approval for the renovations or new schools, certainly would give the Department of Education that ability, I guess, to overturn or veto if they were not inclined to finance those projects.

At this point in time, I am certainly looking to the plans that come before me with regard to renovations or that will incur capital costs. Otherwise the board will probably be notifying us of decisions of reconfigurations or school closures that are not dependent upon financing from the Department of Education.

MS JONES: As I understand it, with or without this new school going ahead the children from Swift Current are going to be bused anyway to another location and the school is going to be closed down.

MS BURKE: It is my understanding that the school from Swift Current will stay status quo.

MS JONES: Excuse me for a minute. I am asking these questions for one of my other colleagues who is not here, so I am trying to clarify some information. I will just be a second.

CHAIR: While this consultation is on the go, just for the purpose of the recorders downstairs, two other people from the minister's staff joined us at about 7:30 or so: Jacqueline Howard, Director of Communications at the Department of Education, and Heather MacLellan, Assistant Deputy Minister of the Women's Policy Office.

MS JONES: Sorry about that. I was confused. It is English Harbour East, I think, was the school that was in question. There was another school and I forget what the name of it was. Could you probably remind me, somebody?

MS BURKE: It would have been the school, probably, in Grand le Pierre or Petit Forte.

MS JONES: Grand le Pierre, that is it.

MR. BUTLER: (Inaudible) going to Terrenceville. That is what she is referring to.

MS BURKE: Petit Forte and Rushoon.

MS JONES: Yes. I was saying Swift Current, but my colleague reminded me that one is staying the same as of the meeting last night. They are still insistent on busing the children from English Harbour East and Grand le Pierre to Terrenceville even without any commitment of a new school at this stage. That is my understanding?

MS BURKE: Yes. The board has put forward a motion but they have not approached the department yet with the plan for a new school in Terrenceville. Their plan to move the students to Terrenceville is not contingent on a new school.

MS JONES: Yes. What my colleague, I guess, is asking is if you will intervene to ensure that these children are not bused until there is a new school.

MS BURKE: Well, I will work with the board with their plans, but there is no official plan here. With or without the new school, the board has made their decision last night to bus the students to Terrenceville.

MS JONES: I think the basis on which he is making the request is based on the decision that government made with regard to Bishop's Falls during the middle of the by-election, when they honoured their request to parents to not close that school. I think that my colleague, the Member for Bellevue, is very concerned about this issue and certainly would like to see intervention on behalf of the government, as well, for these particular parents and children, to ensure they do not have to be bussed until at least they know what the decision of the board is going to be around the new school in Terrenceville, whether it happens or whether it does not happen.

MS BURKE: Well, I anticipate that once the Board puts their plan to the Department of Education for a new school in Terrenceville, that we will be certainly looking at that on a priority basis, to have a look at their plan and be able to make some decisions on that.

MS JONES: You guys announced in the Budget that you were going to eliminate school fees, obviously an initiative that we announced back in 2003 and was cancelled by your government right after you came into power. I understand that you did think it was a good idea and agreed to bring it back in the Budget this year. Can you just confirm for me that this will mean that come September, when children are going to school, that there will be no cost at all to the parents in terms of school supplies or anything like that, that they will have to purchase from the schools?

MS BURKE: Parents will still provide the school supplies as they would ordinarily provide, that are not bought from the school, whether that is, say, a pencil case, a knapsack, exercise books and whatever. What we will cover in this particular program will be school materials that they would normally buy from the school or any costs in relation to curriculum. If you are doing a math program and have to buy the math book or science book and have to buy a consumable workbook, that would be covered.

MS JONES: Throughout the school year there are always different fees and children have to bring money to school for different programs they are involved in. Does that mean those fees are eliminated as well?

MS BURKE: It would depend. If the school was going to have a pizza, they can still continue to have a pizza day and raise their money. If they want to do a particular field trip that is not necessarily a required part of the curriculum - over our way sometimes they may go swimming or skating or something - they could still raise money for that. If there is a project the school would like to do, they can continue to raise money to pay for those particular events.

MS JONES: You guys also announced money, $125,000, for a liaison position to work between the school boards and the school councils, and to support, I guess, the volunteers or the parents or whoever provides their time to the schools and so on. Is this one position or two? Where are they based?

MS BURKE: This would be one position. I am not sure where it is going to be based yet, but I am pretty sure it will not be based in St. John's. That will be a position. When we consulted with the Federation of School Councils, when we were preparing for the Budget, there was a lot of concern that a lot of times they did not understand their roles or they felt they had different roles, they did not know their mandate, and they just wanted to be able to have some understanding of how they should perform and what type of training they need in order to make sure that they are being effective. They were a legislative body that was in existence, and quite frankly I feel they have a very important role to play, because they are made up of local players at any school. They are usually the parents and some of the administration and some of the teachers. They have a very valuable role to play in the decision-making of any school. It is just unfortunate that they are out there and they felt, at some points, they did not understand their role. If we are going to have them, and I think we need them, we need to help validate that role and put some understanding and some training around it. Quite frankly, if they are out there and they are not working, we would have to let them go, but I think they have a very valuable role to play and I would really like to help bolster them over this year.

MS JONES: Are they going to travel the whole Province, every school, every school council, every board?

MS BURKE: There is no one hired yet, so there is no plan. I do not know how they are going to do it. They may be able to have workshops and deal with a number of schools. They may visit quite a number of schools. They may work with the boards. There has been no determination on that. I certainly think they would have access to technology if there is difficulty trying to have a travel budget to hit all 294 schools. The person who is going to take on that role will certainly have to be creative, but will have the mandate to work with, I guess, whatever schools are identified that need support.

MS JONES: I think it is a good concept. I just do not think $125,000 is going to do the job. I think that it gets the government some fanfare, in terms of providing a position like that, but at $125,000 I can tell you if they get to Labrador once a year, good luck to them. The budget is not there to deal with almost 300 schools in the Province and be able to even provide a visit once a year. I think it is inadequately funded, and if you were serious about doing this it would be adequately funded, especially for the transportation piece of it, to allow whoever the individual is to do their work properly. I guess that is a comment more than a question.

The other issue I want to raise is with regard to the teachers who were suspended this year for basically outlining some concerns they had with their work, with their job. That was the Eastern - is it called the Eastern, the St. John's region school board? I think it is the Eastern School Board - is it? - the St. John's region, in which the CEO of the board decided to suspended two teachers for speaking out basically against the government. I would like to ask you, first of all, minister, if you think that is an appropriate action.

MS BURKE: I would think that a CEO of any board, whether it is a school board or a health board, would certainly have to make their calls on how they deal with the staff. I do think teachers need a forum to be able to address some of their concerns. I do not want to specifically speak to that. I was not personally involved in it. I did not sanction it nor did I ask it to be cancelled. It was certainly a decision of the CEO of the board. I really do not feel comfortable in addressing and trying to answer for his actions in that regard.

MS JONES: You may not have been the minister, but it happened within your government, in the highest levels of your government. If you remember, the Premier even got engaged in it himself in terms of feeding comments to the media. I guess I am asking you a question in terms of your position as minister. Do you think it is appropriate action for a CEO of a school board to suspend teachers for speaking out against injustices that they find in the system?

MS BURKE: I would think that a CEO of a board would certainly have to use their discretion to be able to deal with human resource matters. I cannot really make a broad blanket statement as to that. It would cover all matters. It would certainly be dependent on the individual circumstances.

MS JONES: I agree they have to make their own decisions, but I guess I am asking do you think it was appropriate action. You are the minister. Do you think it was appropriate action?

MS BURKE: I am not going to, by any way, pass comment on the performance on any of the CEOs. They certainly have a job to do. They have to work with their board and they have to answer to their board. I do not feel that I need to make a comment on the working of the CEOs.

MS JONES: Was the CEO reprimanded in any way for the action that he took?

MS BURKE: He would be working for the board and the board certainly would - that would be in their purview if they were going to have any sanctions. Not that I am aware of, but in saying that I do not know how they would have dealt with that as a personnel issue.

MS JONES: Is that a hire by government?

MS BURKE: The CEOs work for the board.

MS JONES: Government appoints the boards, the boards hire the CEOs. Is that my understanding?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS JONES: So government has no authority to hire or fire a CEO of a school board in this Province?

MS BURKE: That is correct.

MS JONES: Does it work the same way with health boards?

MS BURKE: I do not know. I cannot answer for Health and Community Services. I can say yes, but I am not sure. I would not be able to specifically answer that for them.

MS JONES: If a CEO today goes out there and decides that they want to continue to suspend teachers in our Province for speaking their minds and having freedom of speech, government has no control, no autonomy at all, to suspend this person, to punish them, to fire them or whatever the case may be; none. That what you are telling me? Absolutely none!

MS BURKE: The authority for the staff would rest with the school board and it would their legitimate authority under the Schools Act.

MS JONES: Even if there is a misappropriation of funds, anything like that, there are no grounds under which government can intervene?

MR. HOLLETT: It would be our expectation that the board, as the employer, would act as necessary depending on what the particular situation was, but the board under the Schools Act has the full authority. The director and all of the staff within the school board are employees of the board. The board is the legal employer not the Department of Education.

MS JONES: I am just making sure I have this clear. The Department of Education and the government have absolutely no control over what a CEO does in this Province; none. They can misappropriate funds, they can fire teachers for no reason, they can suspend them for having freedom of speech, they can do whatever they want, and government has absolutely no control to do anything about it. That is what you are telling me.

MS BURKE: This is where I would go as minister. If we were passing over funds to a board and the staff were corrupt, and the board supervising them or the board making the decisions was in a conspiracy to misappropriate the funds and it was not going to the schools or the students, I think we could probably suspend the funding for a police investigation or something like that. I do not think we would hand funds over if we thought they were taking them and going on vacation, misappropriating the funds. I guess we would call in the police. We would not hand over taxpayers' dollars for crime or fraud.

MR. HOLLETT: The Schools Act itself lays out what the responsibilities and expectations of a school board director are. In any sense, they would have the same accountability to their employer that a Deputy Minister has within government. They are responsible for enforcing the Financial Administration Act, et cetera, within the school board. Again, the legal employer of record is the school board itself.

MS JONES: I am really confused here. I do not know the Schools Act. If I did I would not have to sit here and ask questions probably, but I do not know it. I am just trying to make sure that I am clear in what I am saying, that a CEO of a school board in this Province can basically do just whatever they please and government has no autonomy to deal with them in any way, shape or form. They have to be dealt with only by a volunteer board. That is what I understand.

MS BURKE: In fairness, the CEO does not report - I do not supervise or the Deputy does not supervise their day-to-day - if there is an issue in the office today over something, he came in late this morning, we would not know that. We do not have a day-to-day supervisory capacity over the CEO.

MS JONES: I would not expect you to. You probably do not have that over half the people in your department. I am just wondering what the repercussions are if a CEO of a school board is involved in any of the activities that I have just said. I understand right now that the only recourse is that they are dealt with by a volunteer board of directors. That is my understanding. I am just trying to make sure I am getting this right. I do not want to be saying something that is not correct.

MR. HAYWARD: The Eastern School Board is a legal entity of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. The Board of Directors manages the affairs of the Eastern School Board and the Director of Education for the Eastern School Board reports to the Board of Directors of the Eastern School Board, which is a legal entity of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. There is no direct reporting relationship between the director and the minister. The employer-employee relationship is between the Director and the Board of Directors.

MS JONES: So I am right in what I am saying. Okay.

Just take the Eastern School Board, for example: How much money do they administer on an annual basis?

MR. HAYWARD: About $300 million.

MS JONES: Does the Board of Directors have any training or any programs designed for them when they become elected or part of this volunteer board? Obviously, they have a lot of responsibility here and they have complete autonomy over a CEO who is managing, in this case, $300 million a year? Do they have any kind of training as directors, in terms of what their responsibilities are, how they carry out those responsibilities and so on?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes, there is. There is an orientation session that is provided to all new trustees after every school board election. That would go through all their responsibilities under the Schools Act, under the Financial Administration Act, et cetera, what it is their role is. That is an orientation that would be carried out jointly by the Department of Education and the executive staff of the school board.

MS JONES: Can I have the orientation program that you use? What is it, three days, a week, two week, six months?

MR. HOLLETT: What they will be provided with is a package of information which would lay out all of their responsibilities, everything from copies of the Schools Act right down to the bylaws and the organizational structure of the school board itself. As well, there would be at least one, if not two, full meetings of the board which may take place. Often boards will do a weekend retreat with new boards and take a full Saturday, for example, and Sunday to go through all those issues with the board. Again, while the department participates in those sessions, the exact timing and the exact length of those sessions is determined by the board itself. In practice, they usually have a weekend retreat very shortly after they are set up and go through all of those issues.

MS JONES: You meet them, you give them a package of information, and then there is a sit down with the board to go through the package, is it or what?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes, they would receive a series of presentations.

OFFICIAL: A workshop.

MR. HOLLETT: Yes, a workshop type of thing on the Transparency and Accountability Act and the Schools Act, a fairly lengthy series of presentations and an extensive package of information.

MS JONES: Can I get a copy of the package that you use for your orientation?

MR. HOLLETT: That should not be a problem.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, we will get a copy of that from the school board for you.

MS JONES: Does every school board use the same one?

MR. HAYWARD: Not necessarily.

MS JONES: Why is that?

MR. HAYWARD: Just individualized -

MS JONES: Do they need different skills to run a different kind of board?

MR. HAYWARD: No, just an individualized package of materials that they use as opposed to the content.

MR. HOLLETT: The by-laws of each board could be somewhat different. Some of the presentations would be - I am sure they would talk about how that particular school district is organized with families and schools, the individual schools, and what the key issues are within that board. Some of the materials that we would provide to the boards for those orientations would be common. I mean, it would be presentations on the Transparency and Accountability Act, a copy of the Schools Act, et cetera.

MS JONES: Getting back to the issue again about the teachers who were suspended: Has the department done anything in terms of any kind of meetings or public sessions with the teachers to kind of - how shall I put this? - try and let them know that it is alright to express your frustrations that you have within your job? Everybody has them. They are no different than I am as a politician or you are as a deputy minister or an ADM. Has there been anything done, because I think it sent a terrible message, in fact, in this Province when these teachers were suspended for basically outlining concerns that they had? I am wondering if there was anything done afterwards to try and combat some of this or to let teachers know they are in a profession where they are going to have stresses and that they are able to express themselves without being penalized by the CEO of the board?

MS BURKE: The Department of Education did not take any specific action after that to go out and have any type of public forum with the teachers to explain what avenues they do have available to express their concerns.

MS JONES: Do you know if the board took any action?

MS BURKE: No. That is, no I do not know, as opposed to, no they did not take any action.

MS JONES: You have no authority over the CEO, yet you have the authority to override the decisions of the board.

MS BURKE: We have the authority, as the Department of Education, to provide funding for decisions of the board. If the board makes a decision, for instance, that they are going to move - say a school in Mount Pearl is going from a K to 3 to a K to 4 and the school that would have been a 4 to 8 is going to a 5 to 8, and if they can make that move without any financial resources from the Department of Education they have the authority to do it. If a decision similar to that meant they had to build new classrooms and they needed money for capital they would have to come to the Department of Education for funding in order to facilitate that. In essence then, when we approve the funding or do not approve the funding, we have, I guess, some influence over that decision at that time. If it does not include funding from the Department of Education, under the Schools Act they have the authority to make their decisions.

MS JONES: Does Bishop's Falls include funding?

MS BURKE: It would have had it gone through a motion - originally the situation there was there was a primary-elementary school in the centre of town and on the east end of town. In addition to that there was another school in the centre of town that was K to 8, I guess, and then there was the high school. The K to 8 in the centre of town closed and moved into Leo Burke Academy. Leo Burke Academy was K to 8 and fed into two high schools in Grand Falls, which was 9, 10 and 11 at the time but became up to Grade 12 after that. Then, at a certain point the other school was built on Grenfell Heights, which would have been Bursey, which was also K to11 or K to12 at that time, which was a regional school. The Leo Burke Academy went from K to 8 to 9 to 10 to 11 to 12 in incremental steps. At the same time the high school remained 7 to 12.

The schools in the center of town, one had originally closed to go into Leo Burke and then the other one in the center of town closed, and the one in the East End of town closed and that fed into Helen Tulk. Then the high school closed and fit into Leo Burke which was then K to 12. That became a 7 to 12 and the other school became K to 6. In the meantime, the other school, the high school that closed that was on Grenfell Heights, they opened another school which took the overflow. So the schools actually went from K to 6, 7 to 8 and 9 to 12.

There are still 500 students in the system down there. What in essence would happen is that the school that came back into the center of town that took the overflow, which replaced the school on Grenfell Heights, is now going to be the high school for Grand Falls. That took 7 and 8, and in order to be able to accommodate those students in any one building in Bishops Falls would mean a capital expenditure on Helen Tulk, which is the K to 6 school now. In essence, and to back that up in order to take Leo Burke from K to 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 and then from 9 to 12, it had also had significant renovations done in recent years as well.

MS JONES: So you figured the board really made a wrong decision.

MS BURKE: Well, in fairness to that whole community, it went full circle. For a number of parents there now who went through the system, they would have gone through a system of where they went from K to 8 in one school and then fed into a high school in Grand Falls. That cycle then would have went from a low school into a high school in another town into K to 12 in the one building, from K to 12 into the one building out from K to 12 based over three schools in the community, and then it would have went full circle right back around to the original configuration, which would have been K to 8 with a high school feeding into another community. They actually would have gone full circle in the three different configurations in the community.

MS JONES: I understand that, because we raised it a number of time before government intervened. It is obvious the board made a wrong decision. Are you concerned that this board is still making decisions on configuration of schools, busing children, things like this? Is this board being monitored more closely now for decisions they are making?

MS BURKE: You mean the Central Board or the Eastern Board.

MS JONES: The Central.

MS BURKE: All boards, I guess, are being looked at when they come into us for funding as to whether or not their decisions make sense. There is only going to be a certain degree in the Province of where logistically people can travel.

MS JONES: I just have another question, then I am going to turn it over to my colleague there. I guess that goes back to the Eastern School Board Consultants' Report, that one day, I think, Minister, I left the House and you were going to shred the document. Then another day you were going to do some of the things that were in the document. I guess I am just wondering where the document is now and what is happening with it.

MS BURKE: To tell you the truth, I frankly do not care where the document is. What I said that day about shredding it, and what I continue to say today, was I find it very distasteful for a lot of people when you throw out a report that affects many people, it affects communities, it affects lives, children and parents, and it is thrown out with sweeping changes that are the brainchild of one person, and it is done prior to consultation.

I may not like every report that the school board puts out and some of the decisions that they make, but if they have legitimate authority to do it they have that authority. I am certainly far more comfortable with a report that is done once they hear from the stakeholders. There was no stakeholder consultation in that report. It was put out, it presented sweeping changes, and I just felt it created a lot of anxiety. I would rather - and this is my own personal opinion. The board had their full jurisdiction to decide how they wanted a consultants' report done and who was going to do it and how they were going to release it. Personally, it is not the way that I would have liked to have seen a report done. It was not my decision. I think it created excessive anxiety and it was thrown out. It was the brainchild of one person as opposed to going out, meeting with the school councils, meeting with the communities, hearing their input and from that doing a plan that they would consult on. That was how I felt about it then and that is how I feel about it today.

MS JONES: Who was the author of the report?

MS BURKE: Harold Press, PRA Consultants.

MS JONES: He was hired by whom?

MS BURKE: The Eastern School Board.

MS JONES: Was the report approved by the board before it came to you as the minister?

MS BURKE: No. It was passed at a board meeting. It was tabled at a board meeting. Then in essence, I guess, it became the property of the board and then shared with the Department of Education.

MS JONES: Again, this is the same CEO and the same board which government has no control over, apparently. Now they have a consultants' document that, from your own opinion, does not necessarily meet with your approval. What happens to a document like this now?

MS BURKE: The process was started by the previous CEO of the Eastern Board as opposed to the present CEO of the Eastern Board, and frankly it is the property of the school board so they can do what they want with the report.

MS JONES: Is that the same report they are holding consultations on now?

MS BURKE: No. What they did, as a board, they took that report, they did the first round of consultations, and then they went back to a meeting on - March 10 or 3 out your way?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS BURKE: Yes. They had gotten that first report, did the consultations, and then they developed what they thought were plans that they may be able to proceed with. Based on that second report that they tabled in early March, they did the second round of consultations because that second report put motions to the floor, then they consulted on them. They voted on some last night. There will be other phases done with regard to possible closures or configurations throughout the entire district. They have a part of it done now. What they just voted on, what they consulted on in recent weeks, was the plan that they had put together and tabled in March. That came from the original consultant's report, then consultation, then I guess they met as a board, did a plan, put that to the floor in a motion, did further consultation and voted on some of it last night.

MS JONES: How much of the $300 million budget of the school board got paid out to Harold Press for a report that had no consultation in it, was very controversial, and in your words you wanted to shred?

MS BURKE: Thirty-seven thousand dollars.

MS JONES: Well, I am going to turn it back to our critic now. I am sure he has lots of questions for you.

MR. BUTLER: I guess, while we are on the same vein, Madam Minister, with regard to - really what you are saying is the Department of Education knew nothing that was happening or the possibilities coming down in this consultant's report?

MS BURKE: That first independent report?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, the first independent report.

MS BURKE: Absolutely not. I mean, whoever Harold Press is - my understanding is he was the previous deputy minister - I have never spoken to the man.

MR. BUTLER: I know you were not there, but why I ask that question - the former Minister of Education who lives in the next district to where I live, I guess some of the students from his district go to the same school that I am going to reference now, Coley's Point Primary. They contacted me to try and arrange a meeting with the Minister of Education where he was next door and so on, and someone from the board and different associations at the school. The school is a wooden structure which is probably forty or forty-five years old. At the time, he responded back to me saying that it was better to wait until the new boards were put in place. That was prior to the last election for the trustees or whatever they are called. He said it is better to wait because there is good news coming.

After hearing this here tonight, how would a minister know if there is good news coming if there is nothing that comes through the department or you do not know what is happening in any given area until the board gets their work done like they are doing now and come in? Do you know what I am saying?

MS BURKE: Yes and even in saying that, in fairness had I even known some of the recommendations I would not know if it was good news or bad news. I would have to know the dynamics of the community and what they want, so I would not even be able to comment. Even if they had shared the report I would look at some of it and I would not know how the community is even going to react to it.

MR. BUTLER: Really, when you said you would shred the report that really upset me to a certain point, because the school I am referencing now, the consultants said they needed a new school, they are going to build a new school, so I would not want to see that shredded. Then I took it that the former minister must have known something because he is after telling me that there is good news coming. I figured he must have known what was in the consultant's report. Maybe I am just -

MS BURKE: The consultant's report had not been tabled with the trustees and it had not been delivered to the minister. In fairness to all of that, maybe the consultant was talking to the principal who talked to the minister because he is in the district. That is possible. He could have made a phone call, but I cannot answer for that, I do not know.

In fairness to that too, when I said shredded I did not mean shred all of the recommendations. I still stand by the fact I did not like the process that led to that report.

MR. BUTLER: I agree with you too.

The other thing I want to mention - and you noted about the consultation that is taking place now which is correct. We went, and whoever wanted to go gave a ten-minute presentation to the boards. Then, when they came back - I was at Amalgamated Academy when the results came back and what the boards were recommending and notices of motion, I think they were called. I do not know if I can use anybody's name here or not, but Mr. Peach, I do not know his title now, Milton Peach - I just forget his title.

MS BURKE: The Chair of the board.

MR. BUTLER: The Chair of the board, yes.

He stated, before they came down with their notices of motion, that what they were presenting back to the people that night was what came from the consultations where everybody went and made their presentations. There was not one thing in it that was brought forward that night - my district I am referencing now - that came out of the ten-minute consultations that the people made there. Everything was totally different. Like Coley's Point school, everyone thought it was wonderful and they fought for a new school, that was changed; they are going to keep it opened with no renovations. St. Peter's, they wanted to stay K to 9, and the other ones wanted to stay K to 9, but that was totally changed around. There was really nothing in it to say that the report came from those people.

My next question is in reference to that. I heard from different people who are in that profession and they are saying it is not a good idea, and I do not know, you people over there know more about this than I do, to take 7s, 8s and 9s - because with the system that is out there now most of them are K to 9, some of them maybe 5 to 9 and what have you, like amalgamated, but to mix up the 7s, 8s and 9s, to move them around from one school to the other, they say it is not in line with the curriculum and the system that is in place. Now, I do not know.

Then I hear of other areas where it may be from K to 7 and someone else is from K to 8. Unless the full system is going to change - now maybe it is wrong what they are telling me. Is that correct, by taking the 7s, 8s and 9s out of the one school, it is more or less tampering with the system? For instance, a high school, 10 to 12, they are all in the one group there, 7s, 8s and 9s together. I do not know. Maybe that is incorrect. That is what I am wondering.

MR. HOLLETT: Typically we tend to think of schools in three blocks, K to 6, 7 to 9 and then high school is 10 to 12. That is typically because in some of the larger centers and in other places where enrolments are large, you are able to divide them up that way and come to a certain size of school. In a lot of communities throughout this Province you will see different configurations, K to 9, K to 12, K to 4. There is really a whole host of different configurations. Typically some people talk about primary and elementary schools, junior high schools and then high schools, but that model does not hold on all cases. It depends on the size of the school facility and it depends on the overall enrolments in a particular area.

MR. BUTLER: One of the other points they brought back with their report - and it is gone back to the people again now for another meeting coming up. I will just use Holy Redeemer in Spaniard's Bay, a K to 9, and St. Peter's in Upper Island Cove, a K to 9. To be honest with you, one building is older than the other, definitely a big difference here, but with regard to what is happening and is offered in either one of the two schools, I do not see any major difference. They are taking the 9s from both schools going to Ascension Collegiate, the high school, but they are taking the 7s and 8s from Upper Island Cove and putting them up in Spaniard's Bay.

I ask the question: Why would you do that? Why can't they all stay K to 8? They said: We are moving them because they will get a better education. I said: Is it because the teachers who you have in Upper Island Cove or, you know...?

MS BURKE: I will give a general comment without specifically speaking to those schools. If you have a group of Grade 8s and 9s, there are a number of core courses they are going to do, but if you have a higher enrollment, you can certainly have other courses available, whether it is art courses or music courses or whatever. If you have more students, you are going to have access to more resources. That is probably some of the thinking behind that, because the K to 6 curriculum is pretty standard without choices really. I think in Grade 6 they probably have a choice between band or art, but once you get beyond, into Grade 7 and 8, they can start making some more decisions. You would need the base of students because you are not going to have, say, a spinoff of music in a school or a band with two or three students who are interested in it. You would need, I guess, a group of a larger number to be able to expand the courses to give them choices. If they do not pick up some of these courses in those grades, if they do not pick up, say, band when they get an opportunity in Grade 7 or 8, when they are hitting high school, they do not have that option because the kids in Grade 10, by that point, have probably had two or three years in band.

I am not saying that is the exact problem, what you are talking about there, but I know that, I guess, from being a parent in the system as well, that sometimes when you have a larger number of children in a certain grade you can offer choices. Like, you could bring in the intensive core French in Grade 6 if you had significant enrollment that you could justify that program, and the music and the art programs would be similar.

MR. BUTLER: The next question I have to ask I asked before when we met with Human Resources, Labour and Employment, because that minister was the lead in the, I think, five or six or six or seven departments that are looking at poverty in the Province. I wasn't being sarcastic or anything when I asked him for a definition of poverty, because I have asked so many different people and nobody can seem to put the proper face on it for me. I appreciate where you are coming from, you are trying to eliminate it, but if someone cannot define it for me, I am wondering what you are trying to eliminate, or can you eliminate it if you do not know what it is? I am not making fun of the other minister, but they said it is very difficult to define it or they could not define it. I am just wondering how you can define that for me.

MS BURKE: Do you want my definition?

MR. BUTLER: Definitely..

MS BURKE: If we are going to define poverty as a measure with a measurable outcome, I think we would look at the LICOs, the Low Income Cut Off, because that would give us the baseline statistical data. If we take away every other definition of poverty that is what we are going to measure at the end of ten years. It is going to tell us how many people are living in poverty. That will do the snapshot in time. It will do a sample within the population and that will give us our statistical number. We can only take statistics for what they are and deal with it, but we would measure it and the definition would be through the LICOs. There are all kinds of different measures. We can get into the market basket versus LICOs or whatever. I think, as a Province, we will use LICOs as our cut off.

That is the standard measurable definition of poverty. What I really see poverty as is, I look at poverty as a state or a situation that takes away one's opportunity to fully participate in their community. That means you do not have the financial resources to become part of the community, and that would mean being able to provide for yourself, whether it is proper nutrition, proper drugs, or whether it would be social inclusion, being able to participate in community events. I think social inclusion is certainly one of the major aspects of poverty, and certainly - and I do not want to get into HRLE's budget - why there is money put towards the Jump Start Program in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Poverty affects different areas of your life and it certainly looks at your health outcomes as well. That looks into being able to look at preventive measures which means having an active healthy lifestyle where you can join organized sports or be able to have equipment to do something even on an individual basis, to be able to eat healthy, to be able to participate in your community.

I will put it now to what I see as an educational level with regards to poverty. In the document that was put together after the consultations were done across the Province with regards to poverty, either on page ten, eleven, or thirteen, I cannot remember what actual page it was, but about three-quarters down the page there is a sentence that gave the perspective of people who worked in education and what poverty meant to them. It is a very compelling sentence when you read it. It is one that when you read it really sets you back and it really takes away these measurable definitions of poverty and tells you really what it is. It talks about how young students start school. You can just picture the kids going off to kindergarten and Grade I. I do not care who they are or how poor their family is, when they start that first day of school there is something new. It is new pencils, new shoes, a new book bag, or they have their hair washed or their best clothes put on, but they go in that school and most kids you see going in through the school doors are shining that morning. They are all excited and they are all happy. They go in and they are all equal. They all have the new teacher, they are all getting the new textbooks, novels or whatever they are handing out, they are all there and they are all on that one level and they are getting lots of information.

Then they get this one slip that is going to go home and going to tell them what they have to bring back, whether it is $40 or whether it is $60. When they go home and that note comes out of the book bag, that is when poverty hits. That is when the mother or father, or both parents, say: I cannot afford this. I do not know why you are bringing it home. I can't believe they are asking for this money. Where are we going to get this money? If I get this money for that, we are not going to have groceries next week. I am not going to be able to pay the bills. All of a sudden, the next morning when they go in that classroom they are marginalized and they know it and it breaks their spirit. I think that is one of the aspects of poverty we really have to overcome as a Province, is that our children's spirits are not broken and they are able to participate in the extracurricular activities, whether it is the organized sports or activities in town.

We are hoping to accomplish a lot of that through the JumpStart Program or be able to participate in that classroom without feeling marginalized or without feeling different or without feeling they do not have the financial resources to fully participate in what they are doing. I think that is one of the goals that we have to get to, if we are really going to address poverty. Our young people need to grow up, they need to be able to have self-confidence and self-esteem to move into the community. If they go year after year on the understanding that they cannot compete on a financial basis and that they are marginalized, we are not going to be able to build the capacity that this Province needs.

MR. BUTLER: I am glad to hear you say that, because really that is the way I was looking at it. It comes down to a bottom line with the almighty dollar to a certain degree. When you talk to some people they say: Well, it is a housing issue, it is education. I know a lot of people with a good education and who have a half-decent house, but had to say the same thing to their children like you just mentioned there. It really comes down to that almighty dollar, and until we get up to that level - to me, that is what it is. I know all the other factors and all the other departments play a part in this, but it really comes down to all of it working together so that person has more in the pocket to be able to do things. That is way I look at it.

MS BURKE: Absolutely! It is money in the pocket, because if you are not spending it in other areas, yes you have more disposable income.

It is just like being able to enroll your child in swimming lessons or participating in soccer. One thing we have really done of importance as a government - I am getting sidetracked here again now because I am floating back to HRLE and I am no longer the minister over there - I think that one of the most important initiatives we have ever done is to partner with the JumpStart Program with the Canadian Tire Foundation for Families. I think that has opened the doors for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians right across this Province to participate in activities. They do not have to go through a means test, and they do not have to bring in T4s from their parents for last year or their income tax receipts or what money they are getting. It is done on a very low key community basis that provides access to every child who applies.

MR. BUTLER: What will be the cost to whether - I think it is rented, I do not know, you can answer that for me for sure. The Eastern Board office here in St. John's, what would it cost on a monthly or a yearly basis for that facility?

MS BURKE: The board office in Atlantic Place you mean?

MR. BUTLER: Atlantic Place, yes.

MR. HAYWARD: I believe it is around $270,000 a year, Mr. Butler. If it is any different I will let you know, but that is the number that I recall.

MR. BUTLER: What plans - I guess this goes back to the board again, but I guess in a roundabout circle back to the department - does the Department of Education or the board have, that you may be aware of, for the building that they have in Spaniard's Bay that used to be the board office?

MS BURKE: Do they still own the board office?

MR. HAYWARD: They still own the board office. They still have some of their program people traveling back and forth from that office. Right now, to the best of my knowledge, they have no intent to close it.

MR. BUTLER: We hear some rumours that it may be going up for sale. You are not aware of that, by the way? You would know that, wouldn't you?

MR. HAYWARD: They have not indicated that to us. We have no knowledge that they have a plan to sell it. They could without our approval.

MR. BUTLER: They could without your approval?

MS BURKE: They do not need our approval.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Why I ask that question, I attended a meeting last evening with the Bay Roberts library board. I understand where they are coming from, because I think it is $60,000 or $58,000 a year that is paid for rent for the library in Bay Roberts. There is a fairly large movement on the go out there trying to save their library to the town, because it is centrally located, the schools are in that area and so on. I think they are planning on going to that building - it is being looked at, I should say, they are not planning on going there because they have to go first and see the structure of the building to see if it can carry off as a library or what have you. That is why I was wondering, because I heard this on the outside that that is a possibility. Then I said, why would they move the library there. I know it is fine to go there if it is free rent. To my understanding that is why they are going there, they are being offered free rent by the board. Can you confirm that for me?

MS BURKE: That would be an agreement between the school board and the libraries board.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, but you people would not know if that offer was made or not?

MR. HAYWARD: No. I guess, with a little nudging, we have been trying to work with the Public Libraries Board that if there are alternative facilities in that area that could be utilized, to utilize existing government facilities without paying rent and use that money for something else. The Public Libraries Board and the Eastern School Board are having discussions, and the issue of rent is under negotiation. It seems like they are going to give them a favourable rate, because in effect the government pays most of the costs of that building anyway because it is part of the school board operating grant, so it would not be right for the school board to charge public libraries rent.

MR. BUTLER: My understanding is they are offering them free rent.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes.

MS BURKE: (Inaudible).

MR. HAYWARD: Because the Department of Education provides funding to the school board, pays the heat and light, utilities and snow clearing for that building.

MR. BUTLER: I have had several cases over, I suppose, the last couple of years, and not altogether from my area, calls from different districts with regard to when, I guess, a situation should arise for a student who would need special assistance or whatever program, with various disabilities and so on. I know there is a program. I just forget the name of it name now, Criteria C. They have to meet Criteria C, is it, from one of the programs? Anyway, really what I am trying to say is, the parents see that the child needs this program. The principals of the schools, they support it, the regional office supports it, and all of a sudden it comes to the Eastern Board and then through the Department of Education and it seems to get rejected. I know there is criteria to follow, but if you see the parent and the school and the regional office and medical documentation to support something, you know, I do not see why it is not looked at in a different light rather than just say to that parent, I am sorry, you do not meet the criteria, and they go back through the system again and it still does not happen.

I was wondering if anyone can elaborate on that?

MR. HOLLETT: There are well in excess of 20,000 students in the Province who are receiving some sort of specialized supports, and most of those students would have an ISSP prepared for them. That is worked out between various professionals in the community and the Department of Health. There could be social workers involved. It could be the school board or the itinerant teachers either within the school board, the teacher, the principal, the parents, all of these people who are involved in doing that. They do come up with an individualized plan for every student which could result in one of the criterion-based teachers or one of the general special education teachers providing whatever supports are deemed necessary on a standardized assessment basis. Occasionally, but in really very limited numbers relative to the total number of students, you know, there may well be some disagreement, at certain points, between parents and-or the principal and what actually gets provided at the end of the day. There is a process for working that out and there are professional staff within the Department of Education who work with all involved, including the parents, to make sure that the students, on a fair and equitable basis, get the supports that they need.

MR. BUTLER: For instance, the schools that are going to close - I know Ms Jones mentioned a couple like English Harbour East and that here this evening - the teaching staff who are in those schools, would they move then to the school in Terrenceville or will they be spread throughout the system in some other area? Would some of them go with the students or are there sufficient teachers, say, in Terrenceville to cover off on the numbers of students who will be coming there?

MS BURKE: That is hard to answer, because that would be very much dependent on where the board is going to have resources in the fall, and then it would depend on seniority and their speciality. There may be a phys ed teacher with twenty years in the school and the one coming behind, who's school is getting displaced, might be a phys ed teacher with seven years, so he may not, but there might be another opening in another community for a teacher within that board. It would depend on the allocation of teachers. Just because we have left the teachers in the system and we have left it status quo with the boards, the boards could still switch teachers around depending on one school may be down enrollment and one school may be up enrollment. They still have that flexibility to deal with the needs. It is not a guarantee and it would certainly be done according to the collective agreement of the Teachers' Union.

MR. BUTLER: If, for instance - and I am only using a hypothetical figure now - there were twenty, thirty or forty teachers to retire this year, would they be new hirings that would take place or would they be a part of the 150 who are staying in the system?

MS BURKE: If there are 151 staying in the system and there are 300 retired, there would be 300 new hires coming in behind them.

MR. BUTLER: My colleague, earlier - and maybe you answered it. If you did, Sir, just speak up. With regard to the changes that were made in the Exploits area, has the department had any word from a group or groups trying to reverse that decision again? I know it was changed. The board made a decision, then government went in and made the changes. Have you people heard anything about how some people are concerned about that change now and want it to stay as it was or anything like that?

MS BURKE: There are four people who have indicated that they would like to see further consultation. One person faxed me letters with four different names. I got four letters on it. In response, I guess, to the four letters I probably got I don't know how many of the opposing view. There was a survey sent out through Helen Tulk Elementary that wasn't sanctioned by the board. It was sent out without being signed which caused a bit of a flurry for those four letters to come in, and then quickly followed by a flurry of letters from people who have said: What are you doing here? The board sent out a letter saying they will further consult on how they are going to have a K to 12 system in Bishop's Falls. So, there is no guarantee.

Right now there are still three schools in Bishop's Falls. I don't think they will have three schools forever in Bishop's Falls. One, as I said before, takes the overflow of Grades 7 and 8, 9 to 12 are up in Leo Burke Academy and K to 6 are in Helen Tulk. I don't think either one of the schools today have the capacity to take in the 7s and 8s, unless they do it on some kind of a gradual basis. Maybe they can put the 7s and 8s in the high school if there is enough room up there. In fairness, there is not a whole lot of empty space and empty classrooms within that community right now. There are still 500 students in the community.

MR. BUTLER: Has government done an assessment of the new math curriculum? From what I am hearing, it is very challenging to students and parents alike.

MS BURKE: Right. I can speak to that very well, actually. I have a daughter who started this program in Kindergarten, so we are the first group that has followed this through. I can assure you it has not been without frustration. One thing I have noticed - I have had these conversations within the department. I am going to give a bit of a long-winded answer, although the right answer and the short answer is that we are monitoring the program.

The program itself broken down, its individual components, I thought the students could do quite well. They could take the test and do it and they could get everything right on the test. All of the sudden, there would be these one or two questions at the bottom which would consolidate all the skills that you just did individually, and guaranteed that one question that showed that you could integrate the skills would be the wrong answer. It led to a lot of frustration.

What I am finding - and I am only speaking right now strictly as a parent who understands where this is going, the program. I finally had a bit of relief this year in Grade 6, that I think the program is starting to come together. The concepts that we have been teaching over the years that have been done, I think, in silos, because they haven't really come together as this analytical way of thinking, are starting. What we are trying to get at in this broader-based problem solving way of looking at math I think is going to happen. In saying that, we are monitoring that program and we are doing it through the CRTs and we are doing comparisons with other provinces.

Basically, the change in the math program is consistent in the changes that have been going on in North America. This is not something that Newfoundland and Labrador created as we were going to do math differently. We are certainly on par with the Atlantic Provinces and on par with Canada and North America in that. I really think, if we are going to prepare our students, we do not provide any program that is lesser than what they are going to get if they go to another Province or to another school.

In saying that, we will monitor the program, we will monitor the results, we will look at the CRTs and we have to make sure that our students are doing what they need to be doing. If there are going to be areas where the curriculum outcomes are not being met we will have to make sure that part of the curriculum is either altered or modified so that we provide adequate professional development, because this is new for the teachers too as we are introducing it.

I think as of next year the whole program, because it came in on a junior high basis and it came in on a kindergarten basis - you can correct me if I am wrong - but I think by next year it should be the full integrated program at every grade level. It was coming in over a number of years. The students in Grade 5 last year were doing the new program and the students in Grade 6 were doing the previous program, so the teacher had to switch gears come September to be able to introduce the new curriculum that we are looking at. There have been changes but we are going to monitor it.

My thoughts are that if we fine-tune it and we follow it and make sure we modify it as we need, I think it will provide a very analytical problem solving basis for mathematics, something that I think the students really need.

MR. BUTLER: Did you say that we are on par with the other provinces?

MS BURKE: As far as curriculum, as far as being a problem solving, analytical based mathematical program. The other Atlantic Provinces have similar curriculum.

MR. BUTLER: It is difficult when somebody comes home and says, mom cannot do this and I do not know to do it, and they come to the grandfather and you can give them the right answer.

MS BURKE: But they do not know how you got it.

MR. BUTLER: It is nothing like what they are doing in school. I hear a lot of that. I know it firsthand, number one.

The other one, Minister - I would just like to ask a straightforward question - what is the classroom size and teacher ratio now here in this Province versus other provinces? I know we have heard over several years now, back and forth, that we were the lowest, but no Quebec is the lowest, and so on. I am just wondering: What is it as we speak per se?

MS BURKE: Our average class size - I do not know what it is for the other provinces, but in 2005-2006 our average class size was 20.5 students per teacher.

MR. BUTLER: That is the average over the full Province, we will say?

MS BURKE: I can break it down if you want to know how many classes had less than ten, twelve to fifteen, sixteen to twenty, twenty-one to twenty-five, twenty-six to thirty, thirty-one to thirty-five, thirty-six to forty and over forty-one. I can go through -

MR. BUTLER: The last two or three highest ones.

MS BURKE: Over forty-one is zero, thirty-six to forty is .6 per cent, and thirty-one to thirty-five is 5.6 per cent. The highest percentage of students, the highest category, is between sixteen and twenty at 25.4 per cent.

MR. BUTLER: The policy with regards to the 1.6 kilometer distance to bus students, has that been reviewed or coming to the forefront recently?

MS BURKE: No.

MR. BUTLER: No?

MS BURKE: It has not been reviewed and it has not come to the forefront recently.

MR. BUTLER: I know it has been there for years on the books, but I do not think it is actually carried out everywhere. My understanding is probably this is starting at the board level again and so on. I do know that I have had parents call me and I have had teachers call me saying that they have been instructed to try to get a distance from the school to every house and so on, because people are starting to get all wound up again now that they have to cross a four-lane highway in Bay Roberts for small children to walk to Coley's Point. I thought there might have been something through the department as well, but I guess it is just probably from the school board.

MR. HAYWARD: That 1.6 is there. On occasion, if there is courtesy seating available on a bus they may pick some children up in that 1.6, but the 1.6 has been the rule for quite some time.

MR. BUTLER: I had some questions here, but she is after getting into them too.

The $125,000, I know this was discussed but I do not think the part that I am going to ask you about the liaison position between the school board and that - I take it that person has not been hired. I was wondering: Would it be a posted position for that like we see usually for a lot of positions, or how will that be done?

MS BURKE: We haven't got the job description written yet, although we do have some idea of what we are going to be looking for. I would think it will go through a competition process.

MR. BUTLER: I suppose in a similar vein to where she was asking you questions about the teachers who were suspended - and I know there were a couple who made the media, I guess, more than others, but there were other situations as well. I know another one in my area, and I do not want to elaborate on that because hopefully it is all over with now. There was another incident in the Conception Bay North area. My understanding is that there are cases like this where there has been legal action taken in other provinces. When this was ongoing, did the department have any concerns that this might come back to the department in legal matters when those people were dismissed? I understand what you mentioned to her when you responded, that it was a CEO who has the total jurisdiction. I am wondering if, say for instance, that did happen - not saying legal action is going to happen here, but it has happened away - then I guess it would come back totally to the department, or would it be through the school board itself?

MS BURKE: It would be through the board. The legal action would be taken against the board as the employer.

MR. BUTLER: Professional development opportunities in the school system: I know from time to time, not all that much, you hear teachers raising questions about it during conversations and that. I am just wondering: Has that been looked at by the department? I know at that time there were a lot of concerns raised by teachers, I suppose, when a couple of those issues happened, but then silence again. I was wondering: Was there very much information come forward to the department along those lines, or would that be totally through the board as well?

MS BURKE: Bruce you can add to this. I know some of the professional development that is available for teachers is done in conjunction with the Department of Education. For instance, last week we had the arts conference here in St. John's where a lot of the teachers who deliver the arts program in Newfoundland and Labrador had the opportunity to attend professional development, which was a conference with some Newfoundland and Labrador artists as well. We also provide professional development - we don't provide it, I guess, the boards do - based on the need, like for the math curriculum and for the teachers to be able to participate to be able to be introduced to the new program and the methods. Although the board offers the professional development, it is not necessarily done in isolation of the department, but there could also be board initiatives that wouldn't engage the department.

MR. HOLLETT: Really it is a combination of both, Mr. Butler. What happens is the boards would do some of the professional development themselves, the department will go out to districts and provide in-servicing, and sometimes there is provincial level in-servicing that takes place in St. John's. It is a combination of those. We have a total professional development budget. We provide some of that to the boards and we do some of it directly through the department through our own curriculum consultants.

MR. BUTLER: The other issue with regard to school bus safety: I know in the Budget this year there are sixty-seven new buses. I think when we were in the lockdown or lockup, whatever you want to call it, that day we were advised that the sixty-seven buses would be going totally to the school boards that have their own busing systems. That is correct, is it?

MR. HOLLETT: That is correct.

MR. BUTLER: Out in my area, the school boards unfortunately don't have that system and you have a lot of the operators out there vying for a contract to try to make a dollar. I am wondering: Are there any plans to try and correct that? Let's face it, when they get out there and there are five or six competing against each other and they are dropping the prices down so they will get two or three buses on and make that couple of dollars, by doing so I guess they are buying cheaper buses because they don't have enough money coming in to get a newer bus? Are there any plans that all school boards will be set up the way those other ones are, where government is providing them with the buses? What steps is government taking or planning on taking with regard to safety?

Now, don't get me wrong, I know every operator who has a bus out there and I know most of the drivers, so I am not complaining about those people. They are in this system and they are fighting for survival. Having said that, I guess the crucial thing is the young people who get aboard those buses. No disrespect - there is no one trying to injure a child or anything.

The Auditor General's Report stated that there were many cases, and probably some of them are out in our area, no doubt about that, where they are doing the inspections themselves on their buses and so on. I have heard bus drivers say to myself: I wish someone would come and inspect my bus. I guess they are there to make a dollar and they are on the buses from time to time. It is a major concern, I think it is, and I hope nothing happens through it.

I was just wondering: Has the department looked [technical difficulty] or some of the other school board systems, or is there another way around it so that those people can be assisted? I know it is a job to do, I suppose, to assist someone if they are a private operator to get newer buses when they are making their money from what they are doing. I am just wondering how -

MR. HAYWARD: We run around 900 buses in the Province, 300 of them are board owned, 600 of them are contracted through the contractors, as you are saying.

MR. BUTLER: Six hundred.

MR. HAYWARD: Six hundred of the 900 in round numbers. Government Services has inspectors out there who inspect those vehicles three times a year, and they are responsible for the inspections.

What the Department of Education has started to do is - in 2005-2006 we had around 100 contracts with these contractors come due for renewal. We implemented a policy last year to reduce the maximum age of buses on the highway from fourteen years to twelve years, and funding is provided in the Budget this year to continue with that initiative. Up until last year a bus could be on the highway that was fourteen years old. We have started to faze down the age of buses now to twelve years old and we have put funding in this Budget to continue that initiative.

We have also being working with the School Bus Owners Association to try to deal with some of their funding issues, and one of the ways we have been doing that is trying to, where possible, do five-year bus contracts with them so they can finance their bus purchases over a longer period of time. In the scenario I just said, if somebody wanted to bid a new contract in this year, they would really go out and buy a six or seven-year-old bus to get five years out of it to get to the age of twelve. We are working with the contracted Bus Owners Association and putting money in the Budget to continue to get the contracted buses age reduced considerably. That is what we are trying to do.

MR. BUTLER: My next question: Has it ever been considered about seatbelts on school buses? Is it mandatory in other provinces or have we looked at it here?

MR. HAYWARD: As I understand it, and I am no expert in this field, Transport Canada regulates this. There isn't any province that requires seatbelts on buses. I cannot say that with 100 per cent certainty, but to the best of my knowledge. Apparently they are designed in such a way that the compartmentalization and the solid seats acts as a safety measure.

MR. BUTLER: When is the proposed new School Food Guidelines expected to be implemented?

MS BURKE: We have not made a decision as to what the final date would be for the rollout, but it is started. We did put money into this Budget to assist schools if they are going to need to install new equipment or take out deep fryers or whatever. It will be implemented over the next couple of years. Whether the date is going to be September, 2007, or September, 2008, we will be making that decision. We will work with the schools. Realistically, I think September, 2008, will probably be a better date for them, because we have to undo twenty-five years of menus and of habits. I think if we can start by taking one item off the menu and one soft drink out of the machine, and then the next month or two months later more comes of, I think if we did a gradual implementation we would get where we need to go with it.

It is coming in. We do have money in this Budget to assist schools with initiatives if they need to take out coolers or put in coolers, or take out deep fryers or put in ovens or whatever. We will be working with them. That is coming, but the date right now as to when it would have to be fully implemented is still being negotiated.

MR. BUTLER: I know in our area, back over a few years now, quite a few years, I suppose, I guess the board saw, in their wisdom, to eliminate the people who were hired and worked in the cafeterias in the schools. There were meals prepared in the schools, and what I saw back at that time was far better than what they are getting now. Anyway, they closed the cafeterias and now what it is, is a means now for the schools to raise money.

I will give you an example; McDonald's. You have McDonald's bringing in the pizzas, and I think they get a contribution from them to their programs and so on. I think this is what is bringing a lot of the - do not get me wrong, I do not call McDonald's junk, but I do not think it is probably what we are talking about replacing here in the meantime. You know, it is difficult, I guess, to change over. I understand where you are coming from. It is also probably going to take away from another way that schools raise money. I do not know. With the fees being taken care of now, maybe they do not need to raise the money anymore like they used to.

MS BURKE: I would think that what we are getting at - the school food guidelines is not so much a policy change as it is a lifestyle change. I think it is just like putting the phys ed equipment in the schools that helps somebody make a lifestyle change, because we have the individual stations for working out or we have the treadmills or the bikes or whatever. So, it is something we need to bring in. I would think, once the schools see their options and see what they can do, that within healthy guidelines they could still be able to find foods that would be attractive the kids if they needed to look at a fundraiser of sorts.

MR. BUTLER: Just a couple of more for me. You can probably give me a good answer on this one, because I will not ask the question now. What is the status - I know there are requests in for twenty-two other libraries around the Province. Probably someone could look at me and say, yes, boy, if we eliminate the $60,000 we are paying for the one in your area we can do some more work on it. I am just wondering: I think there are twenty-two new requests, is that correct?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, we have around twenty requests for new libraries in the Province. We also have a number of existing libraries, around forty, I believe, that do not really have enough hours to cater to the population base in their particular region. In this year's Budget government provided $250,000 to increase the hours in our existing libraries without dealing with adding new libraries to the system. As a footnote to that, there are, I think, sixty-six of the ninety-six libraries that coexist in schools, and we encourage and promote that. Our initiative this year has been to increase the hours. Where we had ten hours a week we will probably go to fifteen and where we had fifteen we will go to twenty. That is what we are attempting to do this year with the $250,000.

MR. BUTLER: Bullying in the schools: I know we had an incident back maybe a year and a half ago. Minister Ottenheimer was the Minister of Education at one time, wasn't he? Yes. It was at that time, and I must say we got excellent cooperation through the minister and the staff to deal with an issue of this young fellow on a bus- and probably through your department at the time, Minister, in your other role, because they were in receipt of assistance and special transportation was provided for them. You always hear talk of it again, and I was just wondering if I can get an update on it. Is it totally under control or are there still concerns with it in the Province? I think there are.

MS BURKE: Yes, there are. There are absolutely concerns. It is only this last week I met with, or had conversations with, two or three parents who probably have some of the extreme cases in our schools in the Province. It is an issue and it is an ongoing issue. We are certainly working within a safe and caring schools initiative and policy. It is also part of our violence prevention initiative that we are going to work on as well. It is not a dead issue and it is not going to be. It is one that we need to be able to have the policies in place to make sure everyone understands the policies, but they also have to be maintained, they have to be updated, they have to be modified and we have to be able to work with the individual cases.

The bottom line is - and we have to maintain this, it is not easy to do - every child that enters a school should be going into a safe, secure environment. I know we cannot control it all the time, but when it comes to our attention or when it comes to the attention of the staff or the school board it has to be dealt with. If we do not deal with it, it is going to create other issues, whether it gets into mental health issues, self esteem, self confidence, eating disorders, you name it. That can develop if we do not deal with some of these issues. We absolutely have to keep on top of it. We have to deal with it and we have to keep addressing it as the issues come up. Everyone is entitled to that safe and secure environment.

What I find most frustrating in trying to deal with it probably, as a minister with a department, with boards, with schools, with the students, is the fact that the bullying is not isolated to the schools. Sometimes the schools take the full level of responsibility to deal with it. They absolutely have to when it is on the school grounds and in the school building. That then becomes their responsibility. The cyber bullying that is going on in the evenings and after school, where they are sending messages through the e-mail and they are posting pictures that they are taking from the cameras in the cell phones, where you are getting the pictures of wherever and whenever that are on the web within seconds of being taken, that does not necessarily mean that it is a school function, but the next day the behaviour in the classroom is connected to that. It is going on in the shopping malls, it is going on in the theaters, while walking to school and you name it.

It is a very important issue. We have to deal with it when it comes as far as the schools, but we are also at some point dealing with a much larger issue. We have to make sure that when that child or that student walks in through those doors they have an environment that makes them feel safe and secure. We have to aim for that and we have to make sure that our policies are there for that and that people understand the policies, whether it is students, parents or staff, and we have to work together on it.

Under no circumstances would we ever take the issue of bullying and try and minimize it at this departmental level or say it does not exist or somehow say that it is not harmful behaviour, because it absolutely is. If we want to change public perception towards violence in general we have to start at the early intervention that really has to get down to the small children. That is also an attitudinal change that we have to work on at a bigger societal level as well.

MR. BUTLER: That leads to my last question, and it is related to that. I agree with you that it is happening out in the other areas, but I think when they all come together at the school level - I don't think the school is causing it, it is just the point that they all get together and there is more peer pressure on them then, probably, and students from other communities when they get in there just force the issue more. That is why I spoke up on several occasions. Maybe people said, boy, you're crazy, but when we heard the teacher speaking out that they were stressed in the classrooms - I think they are stressed to the point without having those problems to deal with.

I go into some of the schools out there, and you take Amalgamated Academy with 600 and some odd students there, I mean the teacher has a full-time job there to not only teach - how can you size up the full situation and worry about something happening around a corner, somewhere in a washroom or what have you?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: That is the concern that I have with it. I do not think that we are to the point of what we hear on the television stations from away, but who knows what can happen.

MS BURKE: You make a really good point there, because I was talking to a teacher not too long ago and I was asking about the bullying and how he handled it and how much he saw. His comment to me was: I am the last one to see it. He said: They are not doing it while I am in front of the class teaching. If they are, it is an eye movement and they are making eye contact and it is very subtle, or it is going on out in the bathroom, it is going on in the dressing room or it is going on at the recess break as they are walking from one class to another. He said: I am the last to know. That is a point that you just made as well. It is not something the teachers are standing in front of the class and observing, it is something that if somebody does not bring it to their attention it will go unnoticed. It has to be reported behavior.

MR. BUTLER: I will give you an incident that only happened within the last two weeks. A young fellow, not a word, a quiet individual, but it is has been building on the outside, whether it is at Tim Horton's or whether it is in the mall. He went to school last week and finally something was done. This is the last straw that broke the camel's back. Here you had maybe 200 or 300 students out in the corridor; teachers probably could not see through it. This quiet individual just lost it. Both of them are suspended. This other guy had triggered him off finally to the point - and I am going to tell you, it could have very easily happened that it would have been an incident that would have been a sad situation. Fortunately, some of the students tried to get between them; teachers were involved in it. It is a sad situation. Like I said, you cannot look at the teachers and say: You have to control this. They do not see half of it.

Like I said, they are stressed to the point now, I think, with their teaching chores they have to do. You take one of the programs, Pathways, that you are having evaluated, there is a workload on that that is being looked at. With all of this building up on them, to be honest with you I think all of them are stressed to the limit, let alone the concerns that are coming into the system now. I think it is just going to increase. Not to be an alarmist or anything like that, but once one gets away with it, or whatever happens, it is a major problem.

MS BURKE: When we had an informal pre-Budget consultation as opposed to the formal sessions with the Finance Minister, teachers talked about stress and workload. The major stressor that they brought to our attention was the ISSP or the Pathways program you just brought up. In essence, that led to us saying, we will review that this year. They found that to be very cumbersome and burdensome on them, but in fairness, everyone agrees with inclusion, that children and students seem to be included in the mainstream as opposed to segregated as was the practice years ago in schools.

When we met with individual teachers and just people who we felt would have some valid opinions to offer, the number one stressor that we found was the ISSP process, and that was what triggered the review this year. Certainly we want to make sure there is a strong message here, that inclusion is still part of the plan. How can we streamline the process so that it is not so work intensive for the teacher, but yet the case plan is also developed and followed as well?

MR. BUTLER: One last thing - I said that was the last one. Something came into my mind then with regard to computers. I know in our area, the Aliant Pioneers get computers and rebuild them. I know there used to be a fundraiser in our area. Different companies would sponsor a tractor trailer load to come in from Hull, Quebec somewhere, and they would upgrade them and give them to different students or schools or what have you. I was just wondering, then, like the computers in the system - and I am not saying it is only with to the Department of Education - what happens to the computers if they are replaced here in our system?

I had to go to them a little while ago and I got two computers for two students at Ascension Collegiate who could not afford to buy one at home. Through the Pioneers I got a couple of computers and passed them to the teachers. They do not know where they came from. They think the teacher gave them to them, you know. I was just wondering: Is there a plan in place? I know there is money for new computers going into the schools per se?

MR. HAYWARD: We provide a grant to the Computers for Schools Association, $60,000, to ship the computers e-waste, I guess, the used computers, to a facility in Quebec, Noranda Minerals or something like that. We provide a grant for computers to schools, $60,000, to deal with most of that.

MS JONES: If we can refurbish them, do we do that?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, that would be the complete and total wasted machine.

MR. BUTLER: Wait now, we have our wave lengths crossed. You are saying you will put $60,000 into it to get the waste to go out, right?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: What I am talking about is computers that are not totally waste but they can be taken somewhere and rebuilt and used by a student who cannot afford to have one at home.

MR. HAYWARD: We are in partnership with the Computers for Schools program. We work with Pioneers to do that. We have a program there, and as part of our contribution to Computers for Schools we give them some money to help get rid of the waste. We do that.

MR. BUTLER: Those are all the questions with regard to the Department of Education. She has some on the Women's Policy.

CHAIR: Are there any other questions from any other of the committee members on the Department of Education?

MR. BURKE: Can we have a two-minute break?

CHAIR: I think that is fair enough.

CHAIR: We are ready to role with the Status of Women.

MS JONES: Do you want to call the heads for the Education Department?

CHAIR: Okay. I am sorry.

As always, the Clerk is correct, so if we are done with the Department of Education, we will call the subheads there.

CLERK: I will call them all together.

Shall subheads 1.1.01 to 4.5.02 carry?

CHAIR: We are looking for subheads 1.1.01 to 4.5.02.

Should those subheads carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 to 4.5.02 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Education carried without amendment?

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Education carried without amendment.

CHAIR: We will move then to the Status of Women.

The Department of Education officials are leaving us, I take it?

MS BURKE: Yes.

CHAIR: Thank you very much to all of you for your contribution.

MS JONES: Thank you very much for your time this evening.

Whenever you are ready to call the heads, Mr. Chairman, I am ready.

CHAIR: I will ask the Clerk to call the heads.

CLERK: Shall subhead 2.7.01 carry?

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Minister.

Just going to page 20 of the Estimates book under the Women's Policy Office, I notice that Salaries in 2.7.01 has increased this year, from $435,500 to $780,800. Do you want to tell me what the increase is for, if it is new positions or -

MS MacLELLAN: Approximately $400,000 of that is the Women's Policy Office budget and that remains the same as we have had in previous years. The remaining $380,000 is for the Violence Prevention Initiative. There will be some new positions established with that program. We will be looking at staffing the director's position, some administrative support, and also looking at some contractual work around marketing and with respect to the training that needs to be undertaken with the new $1.2 million violence prevention initiative. Our budget went from $500,000 to $1.2 million for that initiative, so we have an additional $700,000 to invest in that program than we have had previous years.

MS JONES: The Violence Prevention Initiative is a six-year program now?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS JONES: Is that all provincial money or is it cost-shared with the feds?

MS BURKE: $1.25 million is provincial. There is a small portion that would leverage federal funds.

MS MacLELLAN: We have identified in the Budget the potential to have $360,000 of federal funding. We had been approached by some federal departments, national crime prevention program, that once the federal programs were announced with respect to crime prevention they would like to come and talk to us about where they could support some of our objectives.

MS JONES: That would be in addition to the $1.25 million.

MS MacLELLAN: That is in addition to the $1.25 million, yes.

MS BURKE: It would actually be over $1.5 million, if they came to the table with that.

MS JONES: It is $1.25 million over the six-year period provincial money per year?

MS BURKE: $1.25 million annually as opposed to $1.25 million for six years.

MS JONES: Okay, but there is only $380,000 in the Budget. You are talking about $1.25 million, I think?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS JONES: Okay, where is the rest of the money?

MS MacLELLAN: In terms of $1.25 million? If you look at the subtotal you can see the subtotal has gone from $1,717,000 million to $2,918,600.

MS JONES: All the extra funding for Professional Services, Purchased Services, Property and Furnishings, Transportation, all of those increases in those figures would be associated with the Violence Prevention Initiative?

MS MacLELLAN: That is correct.

MS JONES: Okay.

Where were the estimates for that department prior to this, because it was not in the Women's Policy Office? Where were the estimates for the Violence Prevention Initiative, in the Department of Health?

MS MacLELLAN: No, they have always been with the Women's Policy Office. The program was at $500,000, so that is why the previous estimate the previous year was $1.7 million. About $1.1 million of that was Women's Policy, $500,000 was violence prevention and then we had a $100,000 initiative for special grants.

MS JONES: The $1.7 million would have included the $500,000 for Violence Prevention Initiative?

MS MacLELLAN: Yes.

MS JONES: So the program in essence is going from $500,000 to $1.25 million annually.

MS MacLELLAN: That is correct.

MS JONES: Now I understand.

Under the Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women, there was no increase in their Grants and Subsidies this year. According to this, there weren't any increases to them.

MS BURKE: No.

MS JONES: So the women's centres didn't get any additional money?

MS BURKE: The women's centres did. The women's centres have gone from $65,000 a year to $75,000 a year. They have actually gone from $50,000. Our Budget in 2004 was to $55,000, in 2005 they went to $65,000, and now in 2006 they have gone to $75,000. It is an additional $80,000.

MS JONES: Where is that budgeted? In the Department of Health?

MS BURKE: No, that would be through the Women's Policy Office as well.

MS JONES: The line figure has not changed.

MS BURKE: They are not under the Advisory Council.

MS MacLELLAN: It is under section 10, Grants and Subsides.

MS JONES: Under 2.7.01?

MS MacLELLAN: It is item 10 under Grants and Subsidies. It is $1.4 million.

MS JONES: Okay, that is where you budget that.

MS MacLELLAN: Yes.

MS JONES: The increase would be the $10,000 extra to - is it eight centres?

MS BURKE: Eight women's centres.

MS JONES: Yes.

Was there any increase for the transition houses or anything like that?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS MacLELLAN: The transition houses received some funding from Health and Community Services for the Hopedale shelter as well as for Labrador West. I believe the figure for that was approximately $360,000. Also the Transition House Association of Newfoundland and Labrador had a $20,000 increase and the Sexual Assault Crisis and Prevention Centre had an increase of $20,000 from the Women's Policy Office.

MS JONES: That was $20,000 for each one?

MS MacLELLAN: Yes.

MS BURKE: The associations.

MS JONES: That is the two associations, so that was $40,000.

MS MacLELLAN: Right.

MS JONES: Under the Grants and Subsidies: Is all that money committed that is in the line budget or is there any discretionary there?

MS MacLELLAN: There is only $10,000 what I would call discretionary, and that has been a $10,000 grant program that has been in the Women's Policy Office for sometime.

MS JONES: Going down again now to 2.7.02, the Grants and Subsidies there are all for the Provincial Advisory Council. That is their total budget, right?

MS MacLELLAN: Yes, that is correct.

MS JONES: I am just wondering about the women's centre in Goose Bay. I know that they are looking at trying to get another building for the women's centre. Have you guys been involved with that at all?

MS BURKE: We are aware that they are looking for a building, but most women's centres or the Status of Women Councils, part of the grant that they receive from us covers their accommodations. I have met with some of the board members and probably the director up in Goose Bay and I know they are looking for alternate accommodations, because they are paying a high rent right now and they lost their building. We are certainly willing to work with them. We had these discussions as to what they can do to access funding and what kind of building or centre that they want to create and where they want to go with it. We do not have the funding to build women's centres, just give them a grant to go build a centre, but we are certainly willing to work with them to see what kind of funding may be available and partnerships that can help them get their building again.

MS JONES: So, you would be open to helping them out in some way or another?

MS. BURKE: Well, yes. Even prior to losing their building, those are some conversations we had up there, because they certainly have some suggestions of where they think they could go and what kind of services they could provide. There may be funding available, and I say that just by looking at what they have created in Lab West with the Transition House and the SCPI funding that was available for that. That is a beautiful centre.

Depending on, I guess, how they want to proceed - and maybe they just want to be a stand-alone women's centre without any further involvement or services - but depending on where they want to go, we will certainly work with them to make sure that if we understand there is any funding or any pots of money or any projects that they may be able to avail with, we will work with them and help them with that.

MS JONES: What has been happening with the legal aid services in Labrador? The report that was completed expressed some concern that women were not accessing the legal aid services in the way that they should. I do not know if you guys have been doing anything with that or not.

MS MacLELLAN: I was aware that they had some vacancies in the Department of Justice in Labrador and they looked to have them filled to be able to ensure that they were continuing to provide the services. I believe those positions have been filled.

MS JONES: They have been filled?

MS MacLELLAN: As far as I know. I could check for you.

MS JONES: Minister, the new Advisory Council on the Status of Women, how many applicants did you have for the President's position?

MS BURKE: Twenty-five.

MS JONES: Who screened the applicants?

MS BURKE: They were screened by the Public Service Commission, Executive Council, and Women's Policy Office.

MS JONES: Were there any interviews or anything like that done?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS JONES: Were they hired based on a recommendation to Cabinet?

MS BURKE: Yes, it is a Lieutenant-Governor in Council appointment. The screening process put forward the name of the candidate and it was then approved through routine Cabinet.

MS JONES: Was it just one or were there a number to select from?

MS BURKE: There was one name forwarded to Cabinet.

MS JONES: So, they did not basically say, these are the three top applicants or three top people and Cabinet selected which one?

MS BURKE: No, we were given a name and made an appointment from that.

MS JONES: Is that the person who ended up being appointed?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS JONES: There was a concern expressed to me from Labrador West that they do not have anyone on the Provincial Advisory Committee. They said they had always had a representative on the committee ever since it has been established. I am just wondering why the selection was done differently or why that area did not get representation. I know the two Aboriginal groups did get -

MS BURKE: They did, and there are eleven women who serve on the Advisory Council. I have heard from other areas as well, certainly from Stephenville, that did not have one the last time and do not have one again this time. With eleven, there is no way every region, every part of the Province, will be represented. Labrador West certainly has had representation, really good representation. We do have two from Labrador, but we are actually going to be looking for another referral from the Aboriginal community. We have started that process.

We looked at it on a regional basis. Heather, you can add to this if I miss someone here. We have representation from the disabled community, we have someone from the immigrant community, we have a senior citizen, we have people who are involved in municipal politics, business, legal background, social work background, Little Bay Islands, Grand Falls, Port Saunders and the Aboriginal community. We tried to look at it by having as much representation from as many groups as we could. I tell you, with the referrals that came in and the interest in the board, you could really fill it. You could triple or quadruple the number of appointments with the interest and still try to cover off every area. There is no way with eleven that every single area is going to be covered off.

MS JONES: Is there anyone on there from Conne River?

MS BURKE: No.

MS JONES: Or the Federation of Indians, I should say.

MS BURKE: No.

MS BURKE: LIA.

MS JONES: Did their member resign?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS JONES: Because there was a lady appointed, I think, from Nain.

MS BURKE: Right

MS JONES: Has any consideration been given to probably adding more members to the board to try and deal with the regional divide or disparity or whatever? I am raising this, but it is not my opinion, it is the opinion of the Labrador West women's centre that the issues in the Aboriginal community are often different from some of the issues they have in their particular centres. They felt that the added voice at the table was important.

MS BURKE: There are no plans right now to expand, but as I say that it is not because we are opposed to expanding. We have a new board there and I am willing to work with them and see what comes forward. For me to say we are looking at that now, no, we are not.

MS JONES: There was an incident a while ago in Goose Bay where a woman alleged that she was stripped of all of her clothes in the penitentiary and left for three days. Has there been an investigation from the Women's Policy Office or inquiry into that incident?

MS BURKE: No.

MS JONES: Why is that?

MS BURKE: Well, we understand that the RCMP will be doing their investigation based on the complaint. That would be the first level of process that would have to happen there. I am certainly interested in seeing the results, because it kind of mirrors what happened back either in the late eighties or the early nineties at P for W, and the following Louise Arbour report that talked about some of these issues and very similar circumstances that happened at that time. As a result of the Arbour Report, of course, there were sweeping changes across Canada that would deal with how women were dealt with in penal institutions, and certainly a lockup would follow with that.

I am very interested to see the results of the RCMP. I am not even sure right now if the Arbor recommendations actually went into the lockups, that they would have covered that, but there are certainly going to be some parallels, I would think, into some of the recommendations that came from that report and based on what the RCMP do. They have to do their own internal report and we would have to see that to see what is going on. Certainly, we will be looking forward to seeing that report and seeing what was actually followed in the policies, and did they follow their own policies and if not, why not. If they did and the policies are deemed not to be adequate what changes are they going to bring in?

Like I said, it certainly mirrors a lot of the issues that we had all seen or are certainly too familiar with back in the early 90's, probably into the mid-90's, before that report was released. There are certainly a lot of parallels I can see there.

MS JONES: I realize that the Department of Justice has a job to do in this investigation, but I am a little bit appalled that the Women's Policy Office has not made any representation to the Department of Justice or to the Labrador region RCMP in this particular incident.

I would like to know right now what the conditions are in that penitentiary for women when they go there.

MS BURKE: Do you mean the lockup?

MS JONES: Yes. Where are they held, how are they held, are they in separate quarters or units from men, or are they all in mixed cell accommodations? I do not know. I am, frankly, very disappointed that you guys have not made any inquiry on that issue whatsoever.

MS BURKE: We have certainly maintained contact with the Department of Justice and we were told, based on our inquiry to them, that the RCMP would be doing an investigation into the matter. It was not that we did not make the contact, but it will be an RCMP investigation so we will be waiting for that report.

MS JONES: Do you have any idea when the report will be done, when the investigation will be done, when the information will be forwarded, if at all, to your office?

MS BURKE: No.

MS JONES: Have you been meeting with the women's centres around the Province on a regular basis?

MS BURKE: Not on a regular basis, not on a predetermined frequency.

MS JONES: What are some of the issues that women are raising now that are important in their regions?

MS BURKE: There are a number of different issues that are arising. A lot of issues deal with poverty. Certainly, there has been a fair amount of interest in the Poverty Reduction Strategy. As we developed that strategy we had a separate session so that the women's groups could present and have their views known. We certainly focused in on that. That is one of the major issues. They often focus on that whether it is coming into health outcomes or educational outcomes or low-income families and housing, so there is an emphasis on poverty. In some centres they even operate places where people can pick up used clothing or assist with some of the local food banks, so that is certainly an issue.

Another issue that we deal with on a regular basis is issues of violence, you know, where women go for services and gaps in services and some of the systemic issues, I guess, that women face when they are victims. Those would be too, I would think, the primary areas that we deal with when we deal with some of the women's centres. We consult with them or we just speak to them on some of the issues. I would think they are two themes that we hear all the time.

MS JONES: Have you been engaged in the impact of women because of the changes in our economic condition in the Province? I have never heard you talk about how women in the fishery are impacted by the plant closures, by quotas being shipped out of the Province and things like this. Are you engaged in files of that nature at all?

MS. BURKE: We do not carry files of that nature - Heather, you can speak to that - but I have had meetings with the FFAW, and certainly in those meetings they made a comment that they felt in my role, as Minister Responsible for the Status of Women, a lot of the issues were in relation to women. I have met with some of the women from the union, as well, regarding some of the issues and some that they have brought forward. A lot of the issues they bring forward are going to be coordinated through the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture or through the Department of Human Resources, Labour and Employment. But, yes, I have had some meetings where we have dealt with some of these issues.

MS JONES: I raise it because I have never ever heard you speak out in terms of addressing the issues that are facing women from an economic perspective. That is why I have raised a question.

The other question I want to raise is with regard to women who work in part-time positions with nonunionized companies, and I will use Wal-Mart as an example. I talk to women who work at Wal-Mart all the time. I shop there and I do not know if I should or not. I always have that debate in my mind. Anyway, I talk to them and they tell me that their conditions of employment are less than adequate. Many of them are working twenty hours a week. They do not get more than twenty hours a week because, if they do, then they go into a different category in which the company is required to pay them out more money or more benefits and so on. Their work is often sporadic. There is no full-time commitment to them in many cases.

I know back a few years ago, when I was there, we started to do a study to look at those types of issues in terms of the employment conditions of a lot of those different companies or corporations. I do not know if the work ever got finished, I do not know if it is anything that is being considered by the Women's Policy Office now or if it is a priority at all, so if someone would like to address it.

MS BURKE: The Women's Policy Office, as you would know, is certainly not a line department that would offer programs and services. We kind of focus more on the policy analysis and we work with all government departments on that. We are called upon many times to assist departments in the gender analysis, so if there are any policies or directions going forward from government, whether it is issues related to labour or any other department, we certainly become a resource for them to help with the analysis and policy development. We do not offer specific programs, but as we are asked to look at different areas or partner with other groups to do research we are certainly open to that. We have certainly been working with some of the groups with regards to the economic benefits of women. We have worked with the women in resource development and the environmental analysis that companies need. It is certainly on our radar screen, the economic impacts.

A lot of these issues go back to women being marginalized for years. A lot of the jobs are created and a lot of part-time work is often done by women. Certainly, that has been an issue over the years. It falls in many different categories and many different service sectors.

MS MacLELLAN: In our work with the departments over the last year - we have done a lot of work with the Department of Justice on the request of the Minister of Justice. We sit on his committee to look at violence against women. We have been working really closely with him on bringing in the new family violence legislation and the training requirements that are being developed associated with that, and as well, a number of initiatives with the new family court options that are going to be studied. We have done tremendous work, I think, in that particular area.

Building on what the minister has said on the economic file, we have worked with Industry, Trade and Rural Development to do a gender analysis of their programming to see how well women are able to avail of those particular programs. We have also been working with environment to look at setting standards for employment on major resource development projects, and we have worked on the Argentia project with the Voisey's Bay Nickel project. We were able to secure a number of women into the mine processing positions, actually thirty-five of them, at that particular location. We have been working with NLOWE on the recent survey that they have done around the Province with respect to looking at what women are needing in both skills training and in business opportunities.

We have also been working with the RNC on their recruitment, for their new recruits, to get 50 per cent of their recruits. We have been doing a lot of work. We have just finished a focus group session with the deputy ministers to look at what is needed in terms of training on gender analysis. Of course, we have done tremendous work with all of the departments on the new Violence Prevention Program. That is where we have been levering most of our efforts on both the social and economic files in the last year.

MS BURKE: Another initiative that we will be asked to undertake as Women's Policy Office is the new skilled trades courses that are going into the high schools. We just cannot say that the course is available and expect that males and females are going to participate equally in the program, so we need to make sure that we have emphasis on recruitment for females into that program. Again, I do not expect miracles, that we are going to have 50-50 in the first enrollment of the program. I would love to have it, but we have to be aware of that, that we have to put special emphasis in recruitment on getting females into those high school courses, and then, in turn, breaking down some of the barriers that go into going into post-secondary and into the workplace. If we can start some of that happening in the school system, where the female students see their role in the skilled trades alongside the males without dealing with some of the other dynamics, and that they come up through the system into post-secondary and into the workforce, we should be able to get at a lot of the barriers. We are not going to eliminate them, I wish we could, overnight.

That is another initiative that is not high profile, that is out there, that is in your face, that we are doing. It is going to be a step that, as we introduce the female students to the skilled trades, that should be skills in an environment that they have a comfort level with, and can share then better in some of the economic benefits of the Province.

MS JONES: Good.

I do not have any other questions, Mr. Chairman, but I just want to thank the Minister and her officials for being here at 10:08 in the evening.

CHAIR: I am sure they are delighted.

MS JONES: Under those circumstances, I think it would be polite to adjourn at this point and I will so do.

CHAIR: I will ask the Clerk to call the two subheads.

CLERK: Shall subheads 2.7.01 and 2.7.02 carry?

CHAIR: I would ask that subheads 2.7.01 and 2.7.02 carry.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subheads 2.7.01 to 2.7.02 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

On motion, the Women's Policy component of the Office of Executive Council, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: I will assume I will do this correctly.

The Women's Policy component of the Office of the Executive Council, shall I report the Estimates carried without amendment.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Women's Policy Office Estimates carried without amendment

CHAIR: I thank you, Minister and staff, for your cooperation, and Ms Jones for your questioning.

MS BURKE: Thank you.

CHAIR: I will entertain a motion to adjourn?

MR. FRENCH: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. French.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

I am happy to report that concludes all the meetings of the Social Services Committee.

Wait now. We did not pass the minutes of our - I would entertain a motion that we do that.

MR. FRENCH: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. French, we pass the minutes of yesterday's meeting with the Department of Justice.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

On motion, Committee adjourned sine die.