May 6, 2022
Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Bernard Davis, MHA for Virginia Waters -
Pleasantville, substitutes for Paul Pike, MHA for Burin - Grand Bank.
Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Barry Petten, MHA for Conception Bay South,
substitutes for Jeff Dwyer, MHA for Placentia West - Bellevue.
Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Siobhan Coady, MHA for St. John's West,
substitutes for Scott Reid, MHA for St. George's - Humber.
The Committee met at 9 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.
CHAIR (Gambin-Walsh):
Folks, we will call the meeting to order. Today we will have, shortly,
substituting for MHA Pike, Minister Davis will be substituting. Substituting for
MHA Reid, we have Minister Coady, and substituting for MHA Dwyer, we have MHA
Petten.
We don't have any independents here right now and if they do join us, we will
allow them 10 minutes at the end when everybody is finished if the Committee is
okay with that.
So we will probably take a break around 10:20, 10:15, just so whoever is on the
other side can know when we are going to break also, if that is okay, or
whenever we are at the end. If we finish early, we will keep going.
When it is your time to speak, I want you just to remember to make sure your red
light is on, to identify yourself and if the light doesn't come on, just give a
gentle wave. They will be just looking to make sure who is speaking. I am going
to ask the Committee – so the employees have to wear a mask, but Members do not
have to wear a mask. We can put them on or not put them on. So I just want to
let you know that.
I am going to ask the Committee Members to introduce themselves first then I
will ask the minister to introduce his members or get them to introduce
themselves when we call the meeting to order, and then the minister can have his
few minutes and we will start the questions.
Okay, the Committee – MHA Petten.
B. PETTEN:
Barry Petten, MHA for Conception Bay South.
D. HYNES:
Darrell Hynes, Director of Research and Legislative Affairs with the Opposition
Office.
J. DINN:
Jim Dinn, MHA for St. John's Centre.
CHAIR:
We are waiting for a red light down there on the end.
S. FLEMING:
Scott Fleming, Researcher, Third Party Caucus.
D. HAMLYN:
Dave Hamlyn, Sessional Support, Government Members Office.
S. COADY:
Siobhan Coady, MHA, St. John's West.
Bernie Davis from Virginia Waters will be with us momentarily.
L. STOYLES:
Lucy Stoyles, MHA, Mount Pearl North.
CHAIR:
Minister Osborne.
T. OSBORNE:
Thank you.
Tom Osborne, Minister and I guess we will start with the eldest of our group.
E. BARNES:
Thank you, Minister.
Eldred Barnes, Associate Deputy Minister.
G. O'LEARY:
Greg O'Leary, Deputy Minister.
R. HAYES:
Robyn Hayes, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services.
M. BUDGELL:
Marc Budgell, Director of Communications.
T. STAMP:
Tracy Stamp, Departmental Controller.
R. FEAVER:
Robert Feaver, Director of Student Financial Services.
S. LINEHAN:
Scott Linehan, ADM, K-12 and Early Learning.
R. POWER:
Regan Power, Director of Literacy and Institutional Services.
B. CLARKE:
Bradley Clarke, Director of Programs and Services.
M. GOSS-PROWSE:
Mary Goss-Prowse, Director of Early Learning and Child Development.
T. LAMB:
Tina Lamb, Ministerial Liaison.
CHAIR:
I just want to mention also if you could please not adjust the chairs and that
there are water coolers on each end right here for your disposal.
I bring the Committee's attention to the minutes that are here from the meeting
of May 2 and I ask for a mover.
L. STOYLES:
So moved.
CHAIR:
MHA Stoyles has moved the minutes.
Is that accepted?
Carried.
On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.
CHAIR:
I would ask the Clerk to call the first subhead.
CLERK (Barnes):
Executive Services, 1.1.01 through 1.2.01.
CHAIR:
Shall Executive Services
1.1.01 to 1.2.01 carry?
Minister, do you have any introduction?
T. OSBORNE:
No, I won't bore everybody
with a monologue. I'm sure that everybody would appreciate getting out maybe 10
or 15 minutes earlier, so go ahead.
CHAIR:
All right, thank you.
MHA
Petten.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you, Chair.
Thank
you, Minister and staff.
I have
some general questions as well that I'll weave in and out, but I'll just do this
section first. So 1.1.01, salary increase there in the Minister's Office of
$74,000. Are there new staff?
T. OSBORNE:
You didn't get the raise,
Barry?
B. PETTEN:
I didn't get the raise?
T. OSBORNE:
You didn't get the raise; I
got a big raise.
B. PETTEN:
No, you voted that down. We
were supposed to get one.
G. O'LEARY:
(Inaudible) severance payout for one of our EAs.
B. PETTEN:
Pardon me?
G. O'LEARY:
That's a severance payout.
B. PETTEN:
Okay, thank you.
In
1.2.01, Salaries again, $91,000?
G. O'LEARY:
Again, Barry, that's our associate deputy, Eldred Barnes. We had to find funding
for that within.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
G. O'LEARY:
And it's partially offset by the fact that we never had an ADM for a few months.
So that's where the $91,000 comes from.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
I just
have some general questions that we ask every year. Can we have a copy of the
briefing binder or notes? Attrition plan – is that still being followed or what
numbers are associated with that?
T. OSBORNE:
Every department has the
attrition plan – Robyn?
R. HAYES:
We met our attrition target last year, and we follow it. Our target was met last
year, so we're compliant with that.
B. PETTEN:
What was your target?
R. HAYES:
Our target was a total of I think it was $36,000 over two years, and we met that
target last year.
B. PETTEN:
How many retirements or
vacancies are not filled in the department? Do you have those numbers, like the
general breakdown of all those numbers?
R. HAYES:
I do, yeah. So retirements the last fiscal year there were four, and we had 19
new hires. Fifteen of those were temporary positions, three were permanent and
one was a contractual position. We currently have 50 vacancies, but with the
passing of this budget we'll be adding 27 new positions to the department so
those are allotted in that 50 that are vacant. We're waiting for those to be
created.
B. PETTEN:
Are they going to be a
result of the merger of the school district?
R. HAYES:
No, the majority of those vacant positions, 22 of those, are resulting from our
new Canada-Wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement, there are 22 associated
with that. We have four associated with student financial services because of
the new Tuition Relief Grant and there is one in K to 12 to respond to the
Technology Career Pathway program.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
And
what about contractual and short-term employees?
R. HAYES:
Contractual and short-term employees, we currently have 4 contractual positions
within the department. Some of those new positions that we will be creating,
there are, I believe, four of those that will be contractual. Those are
federally funded, so any federally funded positions, if they're a
management-level position are automatically contractual because they're tied to
federal funding.
B. PETTEN:
So those other four, are
they executive positions as well?
R. HAYES:
Executive positions?
B. PETTEN:
You said it's four
contractual.
R. HAYES:
Right.
B. PETTEN:
So where are they to in the
department?
R. HAYES:
We have one in my branch; it's a management position. If you're a temporary
manager it's called contractual. There's one of those in our Policy and
Information Management Division. We currently have one in Curriculum and we have
two in Early Learning, which would be tied to federal funding.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
Did
your department receive any funds from the contingency fund last year?
T. OSBORNE:
The air purifiers were about
$9 million or $8 million or something – $8 million.
B. PETTEN:
Minister, I know your
department received a lot of money for education from the COVID fund. So did you
receive any funds?
T. OSBORNE:
The federal COVID fund?
B. PETTEN:
Well, I guess both because
there has been both streams of money so I was speaking generally.
T. OSBORNE:
Yeah, so the federal fund
would have been under last year's budget.
B. PETTEN:
Right.
T. OSBORNE:
And that covered busing and
guidance and admin and some extra custodial staff within the schools' cleaning
protocols. This year there was no federal – under this fiscal year I don't think
– was there? Well, we received it last year and some of it might have flowed
into this year but it was from the same pot.
Provincially, the COVID contingency is what paid for the air purifiers and
filtration systems in our classrooms this year.
B. PETTEN:
I have a question, too, on
the attrition. I wasn't really clear on the answer on attrition to be honest. So
attrition is continuing on is it? It's going to continue on in future years?
R. HAYES:
Our last attrition target
would have been given to us in 2020-21; it was a two-year attrition target. We
have no new attrition targets in this budget. Any attrition targets we had we
met last year by the abolishment of a position.
B. PETTEN:
So going forward there's no
–
R. HAYES:
For the department there's
currently no attrition target going forward.
B. PETTEN:
These are some general
questions, Minister.
Amalgamation of the school district into the department, where are we to with
that? What's the latest?
CHAIR:
Minister Osborne.
T. OSBORNE:
So work is progressing.
We're on target. We will see the continuation of the transition between now and
September. In terms of, I guess, the departmental and the district review of
what the transition plan and phased approach, that work has been done. The
transition will continue.
We're
looking at things like teacher payroll, obviously. The IT, the differences in IT
between the district and government, so we'll be working with OCIO in terms of
that, in terms of the infrastructure and maintaining the infrastructure. Some of
that will be going to Transportation and Infrastructure once the transition is
complete, but we've looked at a number of departments and where things belong
once it's transitioned into government. So that process is ongoing.
B. PETTEN:
Will there be many job
losses?
T. OSBORNE:
Not at this stage. We've
indicated that there would be no mass layoffs. There are currently, I think, 500
vacant positions within government. So where there is duplication of services,
every effort will be made to redeploy staff if that is necessary.
We've
had some attrition at the school district. With the word that the district will
be transitioning into the department, people who were able to retire probably
have retired so we've had some staff at the district who have retired and so on.
Those positions are being looked at very, very carefully before they're refilled
to determine whether or not they're needed.
B. PETTEN:
Okay, thank you.
So any
savings that's going to be realized from this merger, I guess, is the plan to
reinvest that money back into classrooms? Is that the plan?
T. OSBORNE:
Yes, that is the plan. So as
you know by this year's budget, we had a significant increase in the Education
budget this year. Part of that is looking forward and knowing that there will be
savings. We've paid it forward essentially and invested it this year. We
anticipate this year somewhere between $1.5 million and $2 million as a result
of the transition in this year's budget. There'll be further savings next year,
but, like I said, we've invested it this year based on knowing that there will
be savings.
B. PETTEN:
Minister, the 70 teachers
hired under the COVID funding, are they getting renewed next year?
T. OSBORNE:
Sorry, I couldn't hear the
question.
B. PETTEN:
There were 70 additional
teachers hired under the COVID funding. Are they getting renewed next year?
T. OSBORNE:
The administration and
guidance counsellors, for example, we've funded that even though it was federal
funding last year, the province picked that up because that funding dried up so
we've maintained those positions, for example, so they will continue.
I think
the number 70 that you're talking about were the substitutes that we gave
contracts to. That process has worked well and we've continued that this year.
Robyn,
do you know of the number that we've put under – has it increased from 70 or –?
R. HAYES:
We did increase it during
the COVID year that we were into, I think, it was 100, but it went back to 70.
T. OSBORNE:
So the 70 is maintained. I
mean, that's worked well, so instead of having a substitute bounce from school
to school to school, there is a substitute who's basically under contract with a
school. That school knows that substitute is there. It makes the job easier for
administrators, for the school itself and for the substitutes.
B. PETTEN:
You mentioned about guidance
counsellors. Are there going to be extra resources added to the schools in the
coming year? Is that in the plan because that seems to be a bit of a problem to
a lot of schools as well?
T. OSBORNE:
Yeah. I mean, we obviously saw the need. So last year with COVID, under the
federal funding, like I said, the additional guidance and admin were funded
federally. This year when that funding evaporated, the province picked up that
so that's now permanent. It's part of the budget. It will be staying there. We
are awaiting the Teacher Allocation Review Process now and that will guide us
into the future.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
Extra cleaning supplies and custodians, I mean, hopefully, we're in the downside
of COVID, is that going to continue in September at the same levels or is there
any adjustment plan for that or –?
R. HAYES:
So that extra cleaning and custodian that was measured under the COVID
contingency fund or from the federal restart funding that we received, that
wasn't continued last year. We relied on our current student operations budget
to fund our custodians.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
Minister, the CEO of the francophone school board, is there a planned
replacement for that position or any progress in that process?
T. OSBORNE:
In the francophone district, currently, they've got a temporary replacement
they've taken from their existing staff – assigned somebody temporarily. The
francophone district themselves will undertake a search for a permanent CEO and
that has to be signed off by the department when they find a permanent
replacement.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
On that same topic, the Comptroller General was doing an investigation into the
school boards. So is that still continuing even in the absence of the former
CEO?
T. OSBORNE:
Yeah. I had checked last week, actually, on the status and I understand that the
Comptroller General's report is nearing completion and as soon as we get a copy
of that, Barry, I will furnish yourself and Jim with a copy of that as well. But
I anticipate it, maybe even as early as next week.
Today is Friday so when we spoke to them last week they didn't give us an exact
date on when we would have it but we were thinking we could even have it this
week.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
T. OSBORNE:
So I anticipate we'll probably have it next week.
Now, I don't want to put words on the Comptroller General's mouth because they
didn't give us a specific date but I anticipate it any day.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
One more before time wraps up for me.
Air quality testing in the schools since we have the new air purifiers: Has
there been any testing done since these purifiers have been installed in
schools?
T. OSBORNE:
I don't know if there's been
a standardized test. Robin or Greg?
G. O'LEARY:
There's regular air testing, Barry, that goes on every year. We checked in with
the person who's in charge of that at the district. So that has continued to
this period.
B. PETTEN:
Okay. So since the purifiers
have been installed it's continued on?
G. O'LEARY:
Yes.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
Madam
Chair, I'll divert over.
CHAIR:
The Member's time has
expired.
MHA
Dinn?
J. DINN:
Thank you, Chair.
Thank
you, folks, for coming to answer the questions in what is a lot more pleasant
lighting than the House of Assembly when the lights are on.
I want
to start off with – and I'll try not to repeat what my colleague said, he's
asked a few question that I was planning – recruitment and retention of
teachers. I'm thinking certainly in the NLESD there is, if I understand, $75,000
that's been allocated to recruiting teachers for the francophone school board.
There's a think tank with nurses to recruit nurses. There's funding to increase
student assistants and the new early childhood educators for the school system.
But what is there in terms of an effort to recruit teachers for the general
system for the English school system? Because if anything I've heard there is a
shortage. You're well aware of the issue in Menihek in the high school there.
So I'm
just wondering what are the plans to actually recruit teachers and bring them
into the force.
T. OSBORNE:
So I'll speak briefly, I
know my deputy can probably add to that.
The
francophone funding is an agreement with the federal government to recruit for
francophone. I know that there's a shortage of teachers, not only in this
province, nationally and globally there's a shortage of teachers. So while the
francophone is a very specific search because they require French language first
for their educators so it's more challenging for the francophone district in
terms of recruitment than it would be for the English stream. The federal
government in the English provinces has provided assistance in terms of
recruitment.
We've
been working with the dean in the Faculty of Education. In fact, discussions are
ongoing with the dean in terms of recruitment efforts. I know that the English
School District has carried out their own recruitment efforts, not only in terms
of repatriation of Newfoundland and Labrador individuals who've moved away, but
looking for other individuals.
Greg,
did you want to –
G. O'LEARY:
Yeah, just to give you a
little bit of a breakdown, Mr. Dinn.
First
of all, meetings were held with Memorial University right through the pandemic.
As a result of that, they put on extra cohorts in their programs. So we should
see the benefits of that this coming year. We'll have extra teachers graduating
at this coming year.
We had
a meeting with the NLTA on this matter, they made several suggestions, some of
which we've already incorporated. There's been a meeting with the district
administrators, already referred to. The English School District is doing many
things to try to recruit teachers: CareerBeacon, fairs, all kinds of incentives
in rural areas and things to that effect.
The
timing is good on the question because there is a larger meeting today. What
we've realized through all of those meetings is we need all four bodies to come
together, which is the English School District, Memorial University, the NLTA
and the Department of Education. That meetings is happening this afternoon at 1
o'clock.
In
addition to all the things that we've already done, we're going to come together
and come up with some long term – so as you know in Menihek we've put some
short-term solutions in place. We brought in some supports and things to that
effect in the short term. We've increased the number of retired teachers who
could substitute. We've brought in the emergency supply, all those things, but I
think at this stage now we're looking for a long-term recruitment plan.
So in
addition to the individual meetings with all those groups, the larger meeting
today will happen and I'll be happy to report to you some of the things that
come out of that.
J. DINN:
Just in follow-up to that,
I'm just wondering, in terms of the government employees, how many fractional
units are there in the other divisions of government whether it's Transportation
– so like you have a 0.25 or a 0.3 or a 0.15. I ask that because in teaching
that's exactly what you're getting are the fractional units. So you're sometimes
advertising for a fractional unit to go in a community, I'll say on the Burin
Peninsula or the Northern Peninsula. The problem with that is you're hardly
going to get a teacher to go up there to work at a 0.25 salary, no real
guarantee of filling in.
So in
terms of that is there any indication, let's say, to eliminate this whole
fractional unit approach to teaching, because I think it impedes the
recruitment?
The
other part there, I don't think in any other department do you have fractional
units. You don't have a 0.25 deputy minister, for example, or a 0.25 program
specialist. You have full-time positions. Yet, in teaching you have that. So I'm
just wondering what's the plan to address that.
T. OSBORNE:
Well, that comes out of the
Teacher Allocation Review and the teacher allocation process. We will be guided
– that process is under way, as you know, and we anticipate receiving a report
from them in the coming months and that allocation process. I won't presume what
is going to come out of that, you know, but we will respect the process and the
findings of the Teacher Allocation Review.
J. DINN:
Okay.
So,
right now, how many people are currently employed in your department as it
stands right now? I guess where I am looking at: I know there is no anticipated
job loses but do you anticipate them changing as the NLESD is integrated into
the department?
T. OSBORNE:
Where there is duplication
of service, we will work to find, I guess, redeployment where there is
duplication. But as I indicated to Barry in a question earlier, we have had some
retirements and attrition at the NLESD. I know they're looking very carefully at
recruitment for positions where there is attrition occurring to determine
whether or not those positions will be necessary as the transition happens and
they come into government.
J. DINN:
Okay.
T. OSBORNE:
But, you know, with 500
vacant positions throughout government, job loses will be at a very minimal, I
would suspect. We've already indicated that there would be no mass layoffs so I
would expect that the impact would be very, very minimal.
J. DINN:
Okay.
This is
just following up from last year, I think the comment was that as we get into –
you mentioned, as we get into the transition process, we would have a better
idea of what we're hoping to achieve. So I'm trying to get a better idea of what
we're hoping to achieve in terms of finding the efficiencies.
Is it
possible to have the figures for the number of teachers currently employed in
the province with a breakdown as to the region? That is one. As well, I wonder
how many deaf educators are there. I'm not talking about necessarily people
versed in sign language but actual deaf educators, like we would have had in the
school for the deaf, who are in the department and in the school system itself.
T. OSBORNE:
We can work to get you those
numbers. I don't think we have them here today.
J. DINN:
Okay. That would be great.
In last
year's Estimates, it was mentioned that there was a legislative review planned
in the department. Has this gone ahead? That was in last year's Estimates.
T. OSBORNE:
Robyn can answer that.
R. HAYES:
So we did have money
budgeted there under Professional Services for a legislative review. What we
chose to do instead, we hired actually a manager of legislative review to work
in the department. That would be the contractual position I mentioned earlier in
the Policy Division. That person is looking at a number of pieces of legislation
including our Schools Act and our Teacher
Training Act currently.
J. DINN:
Okay.
And how
much progress, with regard to the integration of the NLESD into the department,
you mentioned I think it was integration of the payroll system and the financial
system. Is there any work that's left outstanding, that's still a piece to be
done in this integration process? Any major challenges?
T. OSBORNE:
There's a great deal of work
to be done. We've reviewed the org plans for both the district and the
department. I know that there are a number of discussions that have taken place.
Some of the English School District, as it currently stands in terms of IT, is a
better fit with OCIO, for example. Some in terms of teacher payroll would be a
better fit with Finance. So we've looked at what is a best fit in terms of the
delivery of education and what belongs in the department and what is a better
fit in other areas. Building maintenance, for example, would be better dealt
with by Transportation and Infrastructure.
So a
great deal of work has already happened in terms of how the integration will
happen and what fits with what. So the process is well under way and continues.
J. DINN:
Okay, thank you.
CHAIR:
The Member's time has
expired.
Thank
you, MHA Dinn.
MHA
Petten.
B. PETTEN:
Do you want to go and vote
on this section? I'll start off in the new section, if you want to.
CHAIR:
Mr. Dinn, do you have any
more additional questions on this section?
J. DINN:
With regard to –
CHAIR:
MHA Dinn, so you're staying
on this section 1.1?
J. DINN:
Yes, I am.
CHAIR:
Okay.
B. PETTEN:
I can keep going, Chair. I
could ask questions all day long, too.
CHAIR:
So do you have questions on
this section?
B. PETTEN:
Yes, I have lots.
CHAIR:
Okay we'll continue on with
MHA Petten.
Keep going.
B. PETTEN:
My glasses, I can't see nothing now.
Anyway –
T. OSBORNE:
Well, Barry, the worst thing about trying to find your glasses is you can't see
them.
B. PETTEN:
I know. I'm getting worse every day, too.
I will continue on with my questions I guess because the section is pretty
small, but in any event, the Green report recommendations, Minister, has there
been an analysis done within the department on what your plan is with any of
those, all or any of those?
T. OSBORNE:
The Green report, the report on post-secondary review, we have obviously
analyzed all of the recommendations. I have indicated previously in the
Legislature that those are recommendations. It is not direction. So the
recommendations of any of those reviews help guide us in our decisions,
obviously, but there are things that, you know, we look more closely at and
there are items that we fully accepted and items that are not necessarily on the
front burner and whether we get to those or not.
I think Mr. Dinn had asked a question previously in the Legislature about the
principles, for example, out of the Green report. So that is something that we
said wasn't on the front burner at that particular time. It is not on the front
burner today, for example. So we do use those recommendations as a guide and we
analyze the recommendations but not necessarily every recommendation is going to
be implemented.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you.
Minister, what is the status of the curriculum update for K to12, particularly
when it applies to cultural sensitivity?
T. OSBORNE:
So we have – and I will get Brad to speak to this a little further, but
curriculum updates is an ongoing process within the department. It takes a great
deal of time and effort to change curriculum but curriculum update is an ongoing
process.
In terms of cultural sensitivities, there was one textbook where there was an
issue identified. We've identified to educators teaching that particular piece
of curriculum to not use that particular – I think it's two pages within that
piece of curriculum. So they're not going to use that. We've given them guidance
in terms of how to deal with that. That particular piece of curriculum is under
review with the aim
to replacement.
Brad did you want to speak a
little bit to the ongoing process because I know in terms of cultural
sensitivity whether it is our Indigenous communities, we've got an advisory
committee to the department that includes the five Indigenous leaders. In terms
of multicultural issues, we've got a committee that is probably formed now.
Brad can give you an update
on that? But certainly it's under way in terms of multicultural issues and so
on. They will help guide the future curriculum certainly within the province.
Brad.
B. CLARKE:
Yes, the minister is bang on
with that. It normally takes about three years from beginning to fully –
CHAIR:
Excuse me.
You can
take off your mask to speak if you want to. You can take off your mask to speak.
B. CLARKE:
Oh, okay.
Normal
curriculum development process would take about three years. So we have about –
a short time ago, about a year and a half, looked at our model of curriculum
development so that cultural sensitivity and Indigenous history, culture and
language are reflected on all of our curriculum K to 12 so that we have steps in
the process now to ensure things like – that happened in the Social Studies
program, hopefully, won't ever happen again.
We have
several, as the minister points out, committees that are engaged in helping us
determine that, where it best fits. Those committees have a very broad
membership. Also, I guess, I'd like to point out that we've developed a
framework document as well, that outlines the expectations from curriculum
development on a go-forward basis and in our policies.
About a
year ago, we started on a multi-stepped professional learning exercise for the
staff within the Department of Education within programs and services to ensure
that they have the very latest information and can apply that, the latest
knowledge in our policy and curriculum development.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you.
Minister, I guess I'll move to the one nursing school: Has the department done
any analysis on the cost benefits of this?
T. OSBORNE:
It's currently under way. I know we've had discussions with Memorial University
and they are certainly working towards that goal. I think, you know, there are
not only delivery operational efficiencies but eventually fiscal efficiencies in
terms of that. So that work is under way and Memorial are actively engaged in
that process.
B. PETTEN:
I suppose in the same theme,
the one health faculty which was announced recently in the budget for MUN, where
we –
T. OSBORNE:
Yeah, both the nursing will
eventually come under health. The health faculty will be under health the same
as the medical school, but Memorial has a closer relationship with education,
obviously, so the work has started. I know Memorial University, as far back as
two years ago, had started talking about a health faculty, you know, a broad
faculty, instead of just the Faculty of Medicine, a health faculty.
I
understand that they had done a report to Memorial University on one health
faculty and it wasn't a significant report, I think it was five or six pages,
the Whiteside report I believe was the name of it was. Because I know your
researchers are now saying let's put an ATIPP in for the Whiteside report.
B. PETTEN:
Any day.
T. OSBORNE:
So it is the Whiteside
report for your researchers. It is about five or six pages, but it just
indicates that it is a good idea to look towards a faculty of health as opposed
to just a Faculty of Medicine. So, again, eventually that will have a closer
relationship with the Department of Health, but it will be led by Memorial
University, the same as the Faculty of Medicine.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you.
Minister, when can we expect to see MUN appearing before Public Accounts?
T. OSBORNE:
I know that our Finance
Minister is sitting directly behind you. So the question was when do we
anticipate seeing MUN before –
B. PETTEN:
Public Accounts.
T. OSBORNE:
– Estimates Committees? I
think that process is under way for agencies, boards and commissions. I don't
want to speak for the Minister of Finance but it will probably be as early as
next year.
S. COADY:
It's with the House Leaders.
T. OSBORNE:
Oh, so the House Leaders,
okay.
S. COADY:
So the House Leaders are
trying to – that's what I understand – the House Leaders are going to figure out
a process.
T. OSBORNE:
Yeah, so the intention has
been –
S. COADY:
So House Leader, figure out a process with your other House Leaders.
T. OSBORNE:
– announced; it will happen.
I guess the decision is not mine to make, but the process has started.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you.
I guess
my colleague will have to talk to me about that. He hasn't told me about that
one yet, but that's fine.
What
about the status of the new law school? Has there been any analysis done within
the department on that? I know MUN seem eager on it, but from your department's
perspective has there been any real analysis done other than the budgetary
issues that come with it?
T. OSBORNE:
I know the president of
Memorial had talked about and looked at a law school for the province. I think
government's position on it is very clear that we don't see the need for a law
school in the province. We've articulated that publicly.
At some
point, if MUN gets autonomy – part of the process with changes to the Memorial
act is ensuring that we have them on a solid footing, so when they eventually
get autonomy, that will be a decision that would be made by them, but we want to
make sure that there's checks and balances.
Currently, if they were to purchase real estate for a law school, government
would have to sign off and agree to that. So we don't want to just simply create
a situation where that government oversight is gone; yet, we're giving a great
deal of provincial funding to Memorial University. So we want to make sure we
get it right in terms of the MUN act.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you.
CHAIR:
The Member's time has
expired.
Still
with Executive Services, MHA Dinn.
J. DINN:
Just following up on the
integration of the school district into the department. It started off that you
had targets, let's say attrition targets that you've met within the department.
Here's my question: Not with attrition, do you have any targets, I guess, or
projections as to what you see as savings, like to the budget line? Nothing to
do necessarily with staff but just like in this integration are you anticipating
savings and do you have that sort of projection of that?
T. OSBORNE:
This year we anticipate the
impact for this year's budget will be somewhere between $1.5 million and $2
million, as a result of the transition. The savings will grow over time as the
transition is fully incorporated into government. So that process has started.
It's a
complex organization. Just to give an example, the English School District uses
PowerSchool, Google Classroom and Cayenta. Those are IT functions that are not
necessarily used by government.
J. DINN:
Right.
T. OSBORNE:
So it is not as simple as
saying we're going to integrate the IT section into government; boom, there it
is, it's done. These processes take a great deal of analysis and whether the
Cayenta system that's being used by the district is the best system or whether
we can change PeopleSoft, for example, within government to incorporate
everything that Cayenta does. So there's still analysis on things like IT that
need to take place.
J. DINN:
And would it be possible to
have a breakdown of where the anticipated savings are? You don't have to do that
now, but like where do you anticipate these savings to come over the next few
years, if that's possible. If that analysis has been done.
T. OSBORNE:
So as I indicated, we know
that it'll be $1.5 million to $2 million this year. But the savings will grow
over time. So in terms of things like IT, the work on whether or not our school
systems are better off with Google Classroom and the district is better off with
Cayenta, those are things that will take a longer period of time.
So the
total savings, it's hard to put a circle around the number and say those are the
total savings. But we've already seen savings this year in the range of $1.5
million to $2 million in this year's budget based on the progress to date. So we
do anticipate significantly higher savings. But we can't give you a specific
number.
J. DINN:
No, no, what I'm looking at
is just over the next – I'm not looking for it now, but an itemized where do we
see the savings, if there's a projection of where do we see where these savings
could occur; not will occur, but could, where you're anticipating.
T. OSBORNE:
Yeah.
J. DINN:
With regards to the
integration, I'll pass this on: school administrators want to know what the
plans are for September. And they're trying to figure out – I'll give you an
example. They're looking at as it affects the hiring process that principals are
engaged in terms of they are part of the ones that will be doing the
interviewing and so on and so forth. Usually that's in collaboration with either
HR or people at the district.
So
they're trying to find out basically what it will look like. Basically, they've
said to me that we haven't been given any information as to who do we answer to
now. Is it at the district? Is it at the department? Who do we go to in the
hiring process? So is there any clarity for school administrators? Because we're
into May and it's getting up to
one of the busiest times for schools and for administrators.
T. OSBORNE:
I anticipate that the functions of administrators in schools leading into this
September will look very much like they did last September and that is part of,
you know, the transition. We want to do this in a way where we – I mean, we
could potentially get much greater savings but it would have a huge disruption
within the system. So we are doing this in as methodical a way that we can so
that the system itself is not disrupted. So administrators' functions will be
very much the same this Septembers as they were last September. There won't be
any disruption to that.
J. DINN:
Right and they are just looking for: Who do we speak to now as this board? Who
do we speak to when it comes to hiring? They're worried about their function but
they're also concerned as to who offers the guidance now. Is it still the same
people at the district or is it to do with – are they now going to people at the
department for when it comes to the hiring process and how they go about the
hiring? That's what they are looking for some clarity on that.
You may not have an answer for that now but just something that you need to be
aware of. They are concerned as to what is the relationship with the district.
Is it possible to have – you won't have it now, I know, but the number of air
quality tests that were conducted in the schools throughout the year, the actual
number, and what schools they were conducted in? I know you said that there has
been regular testing, but I wouldn't mind having that number as to where and
when.
And also if I remember the specs for the air purifiers, there was a requirement
for filter exchanges in that and cleaning of it, an update on that as to I guess
if there's a budget for that and how many times that has been done now since the
beginning of the school year for those air purifiers?
T. OSBORNE:
We can endeavour to get that for you.
J. DINN:
And how much money has been allocated this year for upgrades to the mechanical
ventilation systems or HVAC systems in the school? What line would that fall
under if it's there?
T. OSBORNE:
Do you have that Robyn?
R. HAYES:
So anything to do with the alterations and improvements and maintenance of the
buildings, that would fall under Transportation and Infrastructure. It is not
actually within the Department of Education's budget.
J. DINN:
Okay.
Is there a plan to increase the number of ESL teachers, itinerants and
specialists to help integrate children of refugee and immigrant families into
the school system and other supports that they need to make sure that they have
the supports they need in the school system?
T. OSBORNE:
Yeah. We've had 30
additional units as a result of increased enrolment, and part of that were the
Afghanistan refugees. We also had the equivalent, because they're spread out, of
30 other resources put into our school system to deal with increased enrolment.
There's been, as a result of the Education Action Plan, I believe, 12, was it,
English, second-language educators put into the system.
Much of
what the process that we've undertaken in terms of the Afghanistan refugees will
also apply to Ukrainian refugees. We are anticipating within the next week,
somewhere between 150 and 200 Ukrainian – now I wouldn't call them refugees,
because it's – but Ukrainian newcomers to the province. The individuals are a
little different than the Afghanistan refugees in terms of the status of the
newcomers when they arrive to Newfoundland and Labrador.
So once
they arrive the process will start in terms of the learning system that's within
the English School District in terms of communication and working with the
Association of New Canadians to determine the level of requirements that are
needed. Some individuals may be very proficient in English and some may not.
So
until the welcome process has taken place, the orientation process has taken
place, an assessment of the needs of the individuals, it's difficult to say
today, that process starts really once they land.
J. DINN:
Just with regard to the
changes in education, where does the Federation of School Councils stand in all
this? Will they be dissolved or will they continue, because I'm hearing that the
Federation of School Councils will be dissolved totally.
T. OSBORNE:
No, we won't be dissolving
the Federation of School Councils. I think the relationship between our school
councils and government will be more formalized or more recognized than it is
today.
J. DINN:
So they'll carry on as –?
T. OSBORNE:
Yes.
J. DINN:
Okay, perfect, thank you.
That's
it for me, for that section.
CHAIR:
Thank you.
MHA
Dinn, we're going to move on to Corporate Services, is that okay?
J. DINN:
Yes.
CHAIR:
I ask the Clerk to recall
the grouping, please.
CLERK:
Executive Services, 1.1.01 and 1.2.01.
CHAIR:
Shall Executive Services, 1.1.01 to 1.2.01 carry?
All those in favour, 'aye.'
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
CHAIR:
All those against, 'nay.'
Carried
On motion, subheads1.1.01 through 1.2.01 carried.
CHAIR:
I ask the Clerk to call the next grouping.
CLERK:
Corporate Services, 2.1.01 and 2.1.02.
CHAIR:
Corporate Services, 2.1.01 to 2.1.02.
MHA Petten.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you, Chair.
Under 2.1.01, a few questions there.
Under Salaries, there's a small fluctuation. It was a little less last year.
It's gone back up. Is there staff leaving or a shortage or – what is the reason
for that?
T. STAMP:
So in Salaries we had savings in '21-'22 and that was due to we didn't have any
co-op students. Normally, we would have a commerce co-op student in the fall and
winter semesters. Due to COVID-related challenges, we decided not to have that
co-op student this year. Also, there was some vacant positions in other areas
for various periods of time.
From budget to budget there was a slight decrease and that was due to new
positions; we had some turnover and the new employees are at lower steps than
the previous incumbents. So our budgets are now a bit lower to accommodate that
lower step level.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
So that would affect Employee Benefits as well. I guess that drop of –
T. STAMP:
The Employee Benefits?
B. PETTEN:
Yeah.
T. STAMP:
In Employee Benefits, that budget basically incorporates our workplace – the
majority of that budget is for WorkplaceNL costs and that was a lot lower than
we had budgeted.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
Property, Furnishings and Equipment, there was an additional $130,000 spent or
budgeted this year from last year – an increase.
T. STAMP:
Our increase in that Property, Furnishings and Equipment budget is the budget
for PF and E for the whole entire department. The increase is related to the
federal Canada-wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement because we
anticipate getting additional staff related to that agreement. There was funding
put in there for the related furnishings and equipment that would be required
for those employees.
B. PETTEN:
Okay. Basically getting set up for them?
T. STAMP:
Yes.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
2.1.02, the Grants and Subsidies, $1.5 million: Can we get a breakdown of where
this money goes or –?
T. STAMP:
Yes. We have it now if you want it now or we can get it. The big part of that
budget is the Murphy Centre, which is $866,000. We have Cultural Connections,
which is $450,000. We also have the Council of Atlantic Ministers of Education
and Training, which is $119,000; the Council of Ministers of Education Canada at
$118,600; the Federation of School Councils at $40,000; and Learning
Disabilities Association at $25,000.
B. PETTEN:
Okay. Thank you very much.
I know it's only a small amount but I'm just curious: What's that Grants and
Subsidies in section 2.1.01? It's only like $35,000. What would that be?
T. OSBORNE:
That is essentially for if a school is going on a sporting trip or if there's a
need within a school. It's province wide. The school will advise the department
– I can get you some further details on that, Barry.
B. PETTEN:
Okay. I appreciate that.
So I'm just going back to some general questions. That was a short section.
Minister, to your question when we were finishing up the last round there on the
law school and the autonomy at MUN. So, I guess, and ironically we have probably
been disagreeing but agreeing on this topic for quite some time in different
forms, but it jumps out at me when MUN gets this autonomy, what prevents them,
then, from massive expansions and law schools and everything, you know, skating
loops – I won't go down the road of my list of stuff, I will spare you from that
today, but you get where I am going.
So how did this not become a runaway train? It's finally given autonomy and I
get that point but that's the fear because ultimately the students and our
children and grandchildren will be the ones that will possibly have to bear the
brunt if we are kind of giving that autonomy. So, I guess, to you on that one –
(inaudible) agreement
T. OSBORNE:
Absolutely. And that's why I say it's more important to get it right than to get
it fast in terms of the MUN act. So we are looking at what should be in the new
MUN act.
Part of what we will be looking at is accountability agreements, for example,
and I know other universities who have greater autonomy than Memorial have
accountability agreements with their governments and
those accountability agreements would have to be met in order to ensure next
year's funding, for example.
So
those are the type of things we're looking at. What the final picture of that
looks like will be debated on the floor of the Legislature. So it didn't happen
this spring. We anticipated this spring, but like I said it's more important we
get it right and to protect – we have a significant investment of taxpayer money
going into Memorial University so we have an obligation to ensure that we get it
right.
B. PETTEN:
Absolutely. Thanks for that.
So the
footprint expansion freeze, is that still in place this year? Was that continued
on?
T. OSBORNE:
It is, yes.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
I guess
we'll go to a topic that I've had a lot of debate, or not debate, actually, a
lot of conversation with you and your officials in the last while. I know the
issue but update the progress towards $10-a-day daycare. How is that working
out?
T. OSBORNE:
Yeah, I get Mary to speak a
little more, but it's well under way.
So $10
a day will start in January. We know, and we knew upfront, going to $25 a day,
which saved families significant money out of pocket, and then going to $15 a
day and going to $10 a day, the more affordable you make early learning, the
more families who want early learning, because there are families who can afford
$15 a day that couldn't afford $40. There will be families who can afford $10 a
day that couldn't afford $15. So that's a family choice, but obviously when we
get to $10 a day compared to what it was two years ago, prior to going to $25 a
day, the demand for spaces.
So
we're seeing that now where there's additional demand and people are saying that
they're on a wait-list for early learning as a result of the affordability
piece. It's more affordable, so there's more demand. So a month ago or
thereabouts, we announced the steps that we're taking to make early learning
more accessible. So between the College of the North Atlantic, Keyin College and
Academy Canada, we have some 700 seats that are opening to train early learning
educators. That will be a year in some cases, two years in others cases, in
terms of the level and their ability to get into the workforce.
We've
worked with the college. They've got the earn-while-you-learn program, so that
we can actually have individuals working in the early learning setting while
they're actually going to school. They'll spend a day in the centre, a day in
the classroom, a day in the centre, a day in the classroom, that type of thing.
I'm not necessarily saying that's the schedule, but half the time will be
working in a centre, half in the classroom.
We are
expanding the grants to home-based operations that can open immediately, from
$7,500 to $15,000, to make it more attractive for somebody who wants to set up
an early learning centre in their home to be able to do that. You don't need the
same level of training that you do to work in an operation if you've got a
home-based centre. That's a more immediate step.
We've
provided funding to Family and Child Care Connections to promote that now.
They're expanding into Central and into Labrador. They were in Eastern and
Western regions of the province. They've got a focus to expand even further in
those regions as well.
The
grant for operations that opened, we've increased it from $5,000 per new space
to $7,000 per new space created. There are several other increased bursaries and
grants for students to go to school. We're working with IPGS now on other
mechanisms to attract more students into the classrooms. For example, you may
have seen on the evening news, or on the radio stations or even on Metrobus,
advertising early learning as a career. Because with the additional spaces open
for training, the additional grants and bursaries to make it more attractive for
people to train, the wage grid will see wages increase to more accurately
reflect the valuable work that is being done.
This
will be a career where 10 years ago you may have had parents saying to their
high school graduates there's no future in that career. Well, now there is.
There's laddering. The pay is going to be more attractive; it will more
accurately reflect the work.
We are
hoping that all of these measures – they take time but this time next year we'll
have more spaces than we have this time this year. This time in two years, we'll
have more spaces and more ECEs.
Mary,
did you want to add to that?
M. GOSS-PROWSE:
You stole a lot of my
thunder, I have to say.
We have
received significant funding from the federal government to do a lot of
expansion across all of the levels of ECE in the province. As the minister
noted, affordability was one that we already had a vehicle by which we could
make child care more affordable for the families that were accessing it. We did
understand that it would mean there would be an uptake in what the need for
child care would be in terms of the regulated sector. But we do have, as the
minister noted, capacity money available to not-for-profit organizations and
municipalities to start up new child care services. We have a significant
number, over usual years, of those projects that are already in play and a
number that are on the cusp of signing on. That's across the province.
ECE
shortages are unfortunately a reality across Canada, not just here. There is a
significant focus in the federal commitment around increasing the number of
ECEs. As the minister noted, it's going to take a year or two to see those
additional people in the field, because it takes a little time to do the
program.
Similarly to the space creation, it's a bit different than opening a corner
store. When you're opening a child care service, you have to meet various
different pieces of infrastructure need in terms of hiring needs, in terms of
all sorts of different areas where you have to meet requirements. So it's not as
simple as saying we want 25 spaces, we're going to open a door and there they
are. It involves multiple departments and several levels of inspection and
assessment.
Again,
we have a number of projects that are begun and one that's going to be opening
shortly. They just finished their renovations. So we're very hopeful that this
time next year we'll be in a much different place, and by '25-'26, we are hoping
to have met our target for the federal government, which is an additional 6,000
spaces.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you.
CHAIR:
Thank you.
The
Member's time has expired.
MHA
Dinn.
J. DINN:
Thank you, Chair.
Under
2.1.01, Professional Services, it came in over budget last year. I don't know if
that was answered or not. It was budgeted $112,000 and jumped to $156,700. What
was the reason for that?
T. STAMP:
We were over budget due to
additional consulting requirements required for the NLESD integration and for
the Teacher Allocation Review Committee.
J. DINN:
Would you be able to break
that down? So the consulting work for the integration, is there a report from
that consultant or for that process?
T. STAMP:
For a breakdown with regard to cost, for the integration we spent $120,000; for
the Teacher Allocation Review Committee, we spent $36,675.
J. DINN:
And to whom would that have
been paid?
T. STAMP:
We'll get that for you.
J. DINN:
If they issued a report,
would it be possible to have that report as well? Especially on the integration.
I would be interested in that. I would assume that would also have some
projections as to what savings and so on and so forth.
The
Teacher Allocation, $36,000: That was for extra administrative support or …?
T. STAMP:
That was paid for the members of the Teacher Allocation Review Committee that is
currently ongoing.
J. DINN:
Okay, perfect. Thank you for
that.
With
regard to the provincial revenue – by the way, we do have a commitment to get
that report, just make sure, on the integration? We can have access to that,
correct? That report?
I
didn't hear a commitment one way or the other; otherwise, I guess we – I don't
want to have to go through ATIPP but I would love to see the report.
T. OSBORNE:
We will endeavour to see
what can be released, Jim.
J. DINN:
Okay, I appreciate that.
Thank you very much.
Last
year, we received less provincial revenue than was expected. I think it went
from $80,000 to $50,000 and then it's back up to $80,000. Any reason for that?
T. STAMP:
That revenue budget is for, basically, repayments of prior year expenses, which
can vary significantly from year over year. The budget is based on an overall
average and sometimes it's higher or lower. Repayments of the prior years'
expenses in '21-'22 was lower than we anticipated.
J. DINN:
Perfect.
I'll
just use the rest of my time to go back to a few points I didn't get to make in
the general. With regard to early childhood educators that my colleague for CBS
pointed out, I just want to bring it to your attention. I've been in contact
with the minister and I appreciate your help and, certainly, Ms. Goss-Prowse as
well. There's no easy answer to this. I understand that.
Just so
you're aware, I've had calls from parents right now where they've sought an
extra year of leave from their job because they cannot find child care and
they're being told you either have to resign, we're not going to grant you the
leave – these are teachers, too, by the way – or you're going to have to come
back, one or the other. It's an untenable situation to put someone in and it's
primarily affecting, in this case, women. That's what it's coming down to.
Certainly, I will do my best in trying to coordinate something because I know
it's important. I'm sure we've all either been parents or we have friends and
family who are parents. There's an urgency here and I have to emphasize that.
I'm
assuming then – just a quick question – with regard to the allocation committee,
are you waiting for the report or do they consult with or check in with the
department or with you, Minister, every now and again to find out just how the
progress is going? I'm just wondering is there ongoing consultation or is it
we're going to wait for the report and see what comes out?
T. OSBORNE:
So far I have not met with
the committee. I am available should they choose they want to speak with me, but
we don't oversee the work that they're doing. They are completely independent.
J. DINN:
Okay.
With
regard to vaccinations: How many school employees now, teachers and otherwise,
are fully vaccinated against COVID? I guess I'm interested in teachers, how many
people are unable to return to work because of their vaccination status?
T. OSBORNE:
We can get the number of
individuals that can't return. It's minimal, but we can get that from the NLESD.
My understanding is we are well over 99 per cent of educators and staff that
have been vaccinated. It's a very small number. I think it's probably like 30,
maybe, educators and staff who haven't.
J. DINN:
Okay.
T. OSBORNE:
But it was a very small
number.
J. DINN:
That's in total. Okay,
that's not bad.
Any
update on the progress of the new francophone school? I think we had $2.5
million for site development. I'm assuming though the new arrangement, it's
going into the former School for the Deaf, so any update on how that's
proceeding?
T. OSBORNE:
It's proceeding quite well.
We met with the francophone district this week. I know work is ongoing at that
site to ensure that it's prepared and ready for them come September.
J. DINN:
And any update on the Inuit Bachelor of Educating Program?
T. OSBORNE:
Marc, did you have anything on that?
M. BUDGELL:
No, I will get that information for you.
J. DINN:
Thank you very much.
I have just one question – and this has been brought to my attention with
regards to the allocation committee. There was a concern and I will say here,
that the committee members really the lack of current teaching experience that
many have been out of the system, it would be like – I would say I would have
more current experience but I don't know if you would want me on the committee.
I think you need some people who have been – even like your deputy minister who
has been in the classroom recently. I think it's worthwhile to have people like
that there. That's a concern that has been expressed. Not taking anything away
from the professionalism, but I can tell you that the school system has changed
in the time I was a teacher and I would say it has changed drastically since the
time I left as well. But that's just a comment. I'm looking forward to that
report and I'm hoping there will be further discussion on it.
One last question though with regards to the 35 schools that are now before the
court, I think, when it comes to the possibility of – that they could be up for
sale in the Mount Cashel sex abuse trial. Are there any contingency plans in
place should it be decided that these schools must be – they are now on the
block for part of this compensation? Is there any contingency plan by the
department or the government to deal with this or to purchase them? I'm not
asking for a comment on the case but like a contingency plan.
T. OSBORNE:
So I respect your questions. As detailed as I can say but as brief as I should
be because we have been advised by Justice and Public Safety that, you know,
this is an ongoing case and anything can have an impact. So I would just say
yes.
J. DINN:
Okay. That's good.
I just want to make sure that we are not thrown into total chaos at the end of
it.
Perfect. Thank you.
CHAIR:
The Member's time has expired.
MHA Petten.
B. PETTEN:
If we can move to section 3, I've got nothing further on this one. I'm good to
move to the next section.
CHAIR:
Okay.
Are you okay with that, MHA Dinn? We move to the next section?
J. DINN:
Yes.
CHAIR:
All right. I ask the Clerk to recall the grouping.
CLERK:
Corporate Services, 2.1.01 and 2.1.02.
CHAIR:
Shall Corporate Services, 2.1.01 to 2.1.02 carry?
All those in favour, 'aye.'
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
CHAIR:
All those against, 'nay.'
Carried.
On motion, subheads 2.1.01 through 2.1.02 carried.
CHAIR:
I ask the Clerk to call the next group.
CLERK:
Kindergarten to Grade 12
Education and Early Childhood Development, 3.1.01 to 3.6.01 inclusive.
CHAIR:
Kindergarten to Grade 12
Education and Early Childhood Development, 3.1.01 to 3.6.01 inclusive.
MHA
Petten.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you, Chair.
Under
3.1.01, under Grants and Subsidies, Regular Teachers we see a fluctuation last
year. It went up to $497 million, now we're back down to $473 million. So I
guess why the additional $29 million last year and it's only an additional $5
million this year?
R. HAYES:
So the $29.5 million is made up of salary increases through collective
bargaining that were added into the budget this year. That was a significant
portion there. Some of the COVID-related costs for the guidance and the admin,
the additional resources that were added in as part of the federal funding, that
accounted for April, May and June of the previous school year were also added
into the budget during the fiscal year.
B. PETTEN:
Yes, so I'm clear, the
Employee Benefits, there was only a $1.3-million increase.
R. HAYES:
Yes, that's right. That would be a lower amount. That would also be related to
the salary increases and the employee benefits associated with those additional
positions that were added in. So it's a percentage of that increase.
B. PETTEN:
Right. No, you'd think that
would be more than $1.3 million.
The
provincial revenue piece there, that went to a million dollars. I'm going to try
to answer my own question now. Is that to do with COVID funding as well or –?
R. HAYES:
No, it is federal funding related to what we refer to as Jordan's Principle. So
the federal government provides funding to the school district for resources
that are there for Indigenous students, then the district then provides that
funding back to the department as we pay for the teaching units. The revenue you
see there in the revised is a timing issue related to the previous school year,
which would have been the previous fiscal year, sorry.
B. PETTEN:
Under 3.1.02, School
Operations, Purchased Services, there's an additional expenditure last year of
nearly $600,000?
R. HAYES:
That's related to our insurance premiums. It's an increase in our insurance
premiums for the schools.
B. PETTEN:
So it appears insurance
premiums went up across the board, because I had Estimates last night and
insurance premiums were the cause of a lot of extra expenses. I'll tell you like
I told Minister Loveless, you need to start capping insurance. Among gas prices,
insurance should go on the list, too. Minister Coady I should say that to.
Grants
and Subsidies, why is there approximately $26 million last year under Operating
Grants?
R. HAYES:
So that is made up of the
following: about $13.2 million was related to the Chromebook purchase. Some of
those were delivered in this fiscal year, so we had the expense in this fiscal
year; $7.9 million are for those air purifiers the minister mentioned earlier.
There's $2.15 million related to salary increases. Those would be the collective
bargaining salary increases. And a little over $2 million is related to the
April, May and June COVID funding – that part of the school year – that's
related to the federal restart funding, for the additional resources we put in
place.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
Student
Assistants funding, that went up to $26 million, nearly $27 million; now we're
back down to less than $25 million. Have there been any reductions in student
assistants or – why the reduction?
R. HAYES:
So what happened in the
fiscal year '21-'22, is there was a 27th pay period for teachers and student
assistants, so you're seeing an increase there of funding to accommodate that.
There were also salary increases related to collective bargaining with some
retro amounts in there. That was also put in there. There was also, again, that
COVID money that related to April, May and June, as well as additional student
assistants' hours that we put in because of increased enrolment.
B. PETTEN:
Perfect.
Transportation of School Children, it looks like the numbers have dropped back.
Have there been enhancements of any – I'm thinking that budget should be
increased more than anything else, but it seems to be pretty flattened, and it's
$3 million less than what was spent last year, nearly probably $4 million.
What's
the plan there? Are there enhancements removed or is there any explanation for
that? That's a bigger issue, too, of course.
T. OSBORNE:
There is a little bit of a
difference, but it relates to the federal funding for COVID, last year's. So if
you look at the budget last year versus the budget this year, we're up from $57
million to $58 million.
B. PETTEN:
There's been a lot of talk,
too – I talked to you about this – the age of school buses. There were new
contracts. A lot of contractors actually had issues with some of the timelines
with getting buses. I suppose this is more of a general question, but that issue
is out there and, I mean, I think we spoke about a couple of examples of school
bus operators were kind of finding a pinch. They had to get – the age of the
school bus. We expanded it a little bit for the COVID years when the rush was on
for extra busing, but then when things started settling back, when the contracts
were changed, they had to get buses under a certain age, and they just weren't
available in some cases. People were struggling to get the buses. Is that an
issue that the department has done anything with?
I know that most of the contracts the district probably has in place now, I
believe they tried to align the expiry date of the contracts more across the
board and fluctuation in expiry dates and what have you. But this issue with
availability and the age of school buses is still an issue, I guess, it just
dies down when contracts get in place and operators get moved. It will raise its
head again, obviously, when the next renewal comes up.
I know it is a bigger issue, probably, than the department, but that is an
issue. Is that something that any of your officials have looked into or probably
addressing?
T. OSBORNE:
It is. The issue has been lessened to a large degree by the fact that during the
additional buses that were required for COVID, we increased the allowable age of
the bus from 12 years, I believe it was, to 14.
Some of the buses that were parked because they reached 12 years old, some of
the contractors were able to use them. And even the bus that was parked the year
prior because it was 12 years old, we allowed buses up to 14 years of age. So
that alleviated a lot of those pressures. As long as they were inspected and met
safety requirements.
So there were additional buses purchased, but a large number of the buses that
were used had an extended life period as well.
B. PETTEN:
So is the age limit 14, or has it gone back to 12 now?
T. OSBORNE:
It is now, yes.
B. PETTEN:
It is gone back to 12?
T. OSBORNE:
Yeah.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
The Revenue - Federal piece there, it looks like $1.6 million came in last year
and it's not in the budget.
R. HAYES:
So in January we received a letter from the federal government. They had a Safe
Return to Class Fund established with regard to air purification systems. We
were able to apply based on the funding we had spent on those air purification
systems – the $7.9 million – and we were able to recoup some of that back from
the federal government.
B. PETTEN:
Okay. Perfect. Thank you.
Under 3.1.04, under Supplies, there is an extra $400,000 budgeted this year.
Where is that going to, specifically?
R. HAYES:
So that $396,000 is additional resources, which are student laptops for our
Technology Career Pathway program.
B. PETTEN:
Okay, perfect.
3.2.01,
under Salaries, I guess it is not a big amount but there is a decrease last year
and it has gone back up again this year – well, it's up this year to probably
about $150,000. Again, was that a vacant position or …?
G. O'LEARY:
That was the addition of a position for the Technology Career Pathway. Also
there was a 27 pay period for seconded teachers.
B. PETTEN:
Is that a permanent
position?
G. O'LEARY:
Well, the intentionality would be for that program to continue.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
Transportation and Communications, last year was $271,000 budgeted but only
$59,000 spent. So I guess my question would be, why are we budgeting $130,000
this year? Is there anticipation to …?
G. O'LEARY:
That was just less travel due to COVID restrictions. We expect that to come back
up somewhere near normal.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
G. O'LEARY:
There are more options for virtual, too.
B. PETTEN:
Okay, that answers another –
I was going to add that in.
Professional Services, an extra $110,000 spent last year. Now it is down to
$27,000 this year from –
G. O'LEARY:
Those are pressures due to a digital curriculum platform project that we're
involved with. I'll turn it over to Brad to speak a little bit more to that
program.
B. CLARKE:
This really connects well with what I mentioned the last time when we talked
about the typical three-year window of curriculum development. We have been
exploring for quite some time to engage in technology to enhance our abilities
and our abilities that have timely feedback within the curriculum so that these
changes don't take so long, it is more multimedia, that the curriculum is
expressed to teachers in a much more efficient way. Much more helpful rather
than be limited by paper and pencil, and that project is about to get under way.
CHAIR:
The Member's time has
expired.
MHA
Petten – MHA Dinn.
J. DINN:
Thank you, Chair.
CHAIR:
You are welcome.
J. DINN:
It is a long day already.
CHAIR:
It has been a long couple of
weeks.
J. DINN:
Were we supposed to break at
10:15?
CHAIR:
We can, if –
J. DINN:
No, I'm willing to go on,
but I know that's what you had said before and I'll start –
CHAIR:
Does everyone want a
10-minute break?
T. OSBORNE:
I'm anxious to hear what
Jim's questions are; I'm happy.
J. DINN:
I'm good, too.
T. OSBORNE:
I'm open, though, if people
need a break.
J. DINN:
Yeah, that's good. I'll
start in after that. I'm anxious to just ask my questions, too.
CHAIR:
Okay, we'll take a quick 10
minutes.
Recess
CHAIR:
Okay, are we ready to go
again?
MHA
Dinn.
J. DINN:
Thank you.
I'll
forewarn you that any of these questions I'm asking will come up on a test later
on. Usually that test is Question Period.
T. OSBORNE:
Is it multiple choice?
J. DINN:
You know what. We can do
that. But that limits your ability to respond to me then.
Okay, a
few questions. This is the area where I have a lot of questions that I do want
answered.
I'll
start with the Substitute Teachers spending in 3.1.01 for Professional
Development; it came in under budget last year. I'm going to preface it with
this as well: A few schools had said that one of the things that they had –
their PL, PD substitute days, they had to roll them back or give them back to
the district. They had to use them by March 3 or lose them, so they couldn't
have any further PL or PD after that.
I'm
just wondering is that just for savings? Was there a reason for that? I know
you're not the district, but at the same time I'm assuming there's an
integration here. In some schools that's like 60 days, works out to about
$18,000 in savings. I'm just wondering where that directive came from, because
you can see here that the Substitute Teacher professional leave days have
dropped, the budget there dropped significantly.
T. OSBORNE:
That would have been a
decision of the district. We didn't provide direction in the department on that,
but I mean we can certainly ask the question for you.
J. DINN:
I wouldn't mind finding out
just because you can see here it's dropped – as to what was the rationale there,
especially if the directive is going out to schools to turn these back.
With
regard to the 1.6-kilometre busing policy, has there been any consideration
given to revising that policy? I know there was something asked similar to that
earlier from my colleague from CBS.
T. OSBORNE:
Madam Chair, I think while
we were gone on break, the Member for St. John's Centre must have taken a
question off the desk.
No, at
this stage, there's been no discussion on changing the 1.6. It stands as it is
at the moment.
J. DINN:
Has there been any talk or
consideration to maybe pilot with Metrobus for busing of students within the
city? I brought this up last year. Even like having a GPS system where the
pickups could be in the city, especially where the pickups could be plotted in
the bus, the bus takes it – the Metrobus itself.
Has
there been any talk about that? Certainly, when I was going to school – and
you're of my vintage – there were no yellow buses in the city as such; it was
either walk or Metrobus. But I'm just wondering since we do have a public
transit system, of using that, of maybe discussions with them as to how we can
use them for student busing within the city.
T. OSBORNE:
No, you're right. I remember
getting dropped to school every morning and walking about three kilometres home
every afternoon.
J. DINN:
Oh, you were in the wealthy
section. I walked both ways uphill.
T. OSBORNE:
The concept of Metrobus in
the city has been looked at and considered. At some point it may become a
reality, Jim, I don't know, but I mean there are liability concerns. Once a
student steps on the bus, from the moment they step on the bus to the moment
they step off the bus to return home, they're sort of in the care and custody of
the school district. That's not the same if they step on a Metrobus. There are
some concerns and at which point are they picked up and dropped off.
It has
been looked at. There probably would be savings. Whether or not the school
community and parents would all be in favour, there's a lot to be considered.
J. DINN:
Okay.
You
could have it so that there's a school district employee on the bus who is there
to supervise as such. That's easy enough. Anyway, at least I'm happy that
there's some consideration of it and some discussion.
With
regard to the SmartFind system that's being brought in as a way for getting
substitutes, why was it brought in now and not wait until next year, once we
sort of have a fresh year and hopefully COVID is less in place. I can tell you
that the issue is causing a lot of consternation from administrators who can
monitor the system. But this is a busy time of the year; we're still coming out
of COVID. It's also disqualifying certain teachers that schools relied on. They
can no longer call because they don't check all the boxes, but that schools
could rely on.
They're
also finding there's concern that teachers, if they're living next to the school
and they turn down, let's say, two call-ins from schools that are an hour away,
they're bumped off and that school next door that might need them can't call
them in. It's creating those situations.
Also,
for a teacher who is in for three days and then I can come in for a fourth day,
but because of the SmartFind system, after three days they're bumped up to the
full level of pay.
What
we're finding is that teachers in this system, they aren't.
They are actually losing pay, I guess, for lack of a better word. While it is up
to the principal to go in and monitor that, that is adding – so I guess there
are a lot of bugs to this that have to be worked out. It would have been better
to wait until September to do this, or paused it right now even for that matter.
G. O'LEARY:
Mr. Dinn, the reason it was brought in is to save time for administrators and,
as I know you can appreciate, for principals and vice-principals who are making
many calls in the morning. It was piloted on the Burin Peninsula and had great
success.
I will agree that in terms of a teacher who goes to the same school multiple
days, that is something that does need to be looked at in terms of just the
efficiency of that and keeping the continuity of learning with children. But
overall, it was brought in to ease pressure off administrators.
J. DINN:
I guess right now for some schools they just started up recently and, as they
said, it would probably work but it is just coming at the wrong time of the year
for them. As long as we are looking at that there are bugs and these bugs can be
worked out or these deficiencies – for lack of a better word – but I would agree
with you. Yes, I understand the concept and it is supposed to work.
G. O'LEARY:
Any new system will have a few bugs –
J. DINN:
And I think that is just it. It would have been better in September and just
something to keep in mind.
G. O'LEARY:
But the pressure on COVID was so great now is why it was brought in now.
J. DINN:
Yeah, exactly.
This has to do with the Chromebooks – and I think there is some mention of it
here. I am looking under School Operations on the technology piece. So there has
been an issue now that, basically, Chromebook devices in the schools have
expired – that they are no longer supported by the network in the school and
that they can no longer be used. So here is basically what this means. I will
give you a couple of schools in the next year that they are going to have to
retire and get rid of 100 Chromebooks or iPads or whatever it is that were using
for the students that they have to replace.
For one school, you are looking at 82 – that results in a cost in over $22,000
to replace them. I guess, where I am looking, what is the plan to help schools
now that these devices are now gone, you can't use them anymore, they are no
longer supported by the system – they still operate; they work perfectly fine.
What is the plan then to help schools replace these? Because that is a
significant chunk of change. In many cases, they raise this using their own
fundraising efforts. I am just wondering what the plan is here to help school
with that. Or if there is a (inaudible) so you can extend the life. The machines
still work.
And then, I'll add to this
one, another complication, you've just brought in and spent $20 million or $30
million on Chromebooks for the school system for students. So that is going to
be a problem that is coming your way; again, I am just wondering what the
solution is or the replacement is.
T. OSBORNE:
I mean if the devices are
working and perfectly functional, I'd rather see that they were extended. It
would be a better use of resources and more cost effective. That is something
that we will certainly look at.
J. DINN:
Okay. Just be aware that and I'll have a couple of follow-up questions; I'll
wait until my next turn.
CHAIR:
Okay. The Member's time has
expired.
MHA
Petten.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you, Chair.
I got a
few more questions on this section. I'm going to flip to the Library Resources
Board, 3.6.01. There is a $317,000 increase in the Grants and Subsidies from
last year's budgeted amount.
R. HAYES:
So you're talking about from budget to budget, that increase, the $317,000?
B. PETTEN:
Yes.
R. HAYES:
That relates to that negotiated salary increases per collective bargaining.
B. PETTEN:
Okay, that is
straightforward.
Early
Learning and Child Development, 3.5.01. Salaries, $6.5 million as oppose to $4.9
million. What is this increase a result of?
R. HAYES:
So at the beginning of the session I mentioned a number of new positions we had
related to the Canada-Wide Early Learning Child Care Agreement and that is what
accounts for that increase, those 22 additional positions we have added.
B. PETTEN:
Okay, thanks.
Transportation and Communications was only $125,000 last year, but we're back up
to $432,000. I'm assuming the drop would have been a result of COVID, correct?
R. HAYES:
Correct, yes.
B. PETTEN:
So $432,000 is still
$200,000 more than what was budgeted last year. I guess what I am asking is
$432,000, is that the historic kind of budget that has been in for
Transportation and Communications there pre-COVID, I guess, is what I am asking,
roughly.
R. HAYES:
It would be largely related to that Canada-wide agreement and all the
enhancements that there are under that and the additional staff that we have
hired that will also be required to travel. As we grow spaces, additional travel
that will be required. I would hand it off to Mary Goss-Prowse to see if there
is anything she would like to add there with regard to that.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
M. GOSS-PROWSE:
Yes, it would be related, predominantly – don't quote me – but I think it's
about 18 of those positions are going to be at the regional level. They would be
the people that would be going out to inspect child care to help people start
child care. So they physically have to go and visit sites and in their
monitoring role as inspectors as well they're constantly travelling. It was
significantly reduced over the last couple of years because of COVID. We didn't
visit centres during many of the restricted periods, because introducing another
adult that isn't part of the cohort in the building wasn't – we did a lot more
virtual visiting, et cetera.
But
it's not ideal when you're talking about looking at licensing adherence. So you
want to be able to get back out there again. So in anticipation of the
additional staff, as well as the regular staff doing more travel this year.
B. PETTEN:
Okay, thank you.
Professional Services was a $3 million increase in 3.5.01.
M. GOSS-PROWSE:
Again, that's also tied predominantly to the Canada-wide agreement. We have
significant funding under the federal agreement to do work around areas where we
would need to hire a consultant to do some work for us, that kind of thing. So
there is significant money there to do that.
B. PETTEN:
So this big increase in
federal revenue, $85 million, is that that money? Is that what we're looking at?
Okay.
Allowances and Assistance, to begin it was $9 million less, but it's gone back
up to $27 million this year. So why those drops? I think it happened the year
before as well.
M. GOSS-PROWSE:
Again, it's a lot of this is related to the Canada-wide agreement, for the
increases, for sure. I'm just going to check my notes here.
B. PETTEN:
But it's a decrease, right?
M. GOSS-PROWSE:
Well, what happened when we went from, say, the $25 to $15 and we're going to be
going to $10 in January – Allowances and Assistance covers our child care
subsidy program. So while we may have more people applying for that program, the
amount we're spending as government under that program is actually lowered,
because we're paying the $15-a-day or the $25-a-day, as opposed to what we used
to which was up to $44 a day.
That
one is actually a little lowered because of that expense, but if you look at the
Grants and Subsidies, which is in the next line, there's a significant increase
and that's because we're picking up a lot more operational costs for centres
under the Operating Grant to lower those fees for parents. So between the two,
one is going up significantly and the other one is going down a little bit.
Under
Allowances and Assistance as well, we also have increases coming in the
bursaries and grants in order to do the early childhood education program and
with the additional seats we're anticipating that that budget will be up as
well.
B. PETTEN:
Okay, thank you.
I guess
back to the curriculum review, it's a three-year process. When was the last one
done prior to that? The ongoing review now, so when would the last curriculum
review happened?
T. OSBORNE:
It's ongoing.
B. PETTEN:
Right.
T. OSBORNE:
Brad can speak to this, but
every single year there's curriculum review taking place. We've got literally
hundreds of textbooks throughout the province so you wouldn't leave them all –
as Brad has said earlier, a single textbook can be up to three years to review
and implement a new piece of curriculum. It's an ongoing process. They just kind
of roll through the different curriculum.
Brad,
did you want to add to that?
B. CLARKE:
Yes, curriculum development
in the province is cyclic. So very dynamic. As every year, every curriculum is
what we call monitored and we get some very early statistics and feedback on the
curriculum. That may trigger a full evaluation, which then may trigger the next
steps of a renewal, those sorts of things. That's an ongoing thing that we do
every year.
B. PETTEN:
Okay, thank you.
I have
a couple of minutes left and I'm probably going to take longer than that on this
issue. But I guess early childhood I'm focused a lot on that one because I think
that's a big issue out there I think throughout the province. I know it's in my
district but it's right across the board. I've spoke to you, Minister, about
this, this week past and probably will have further discussion.
I guess
with all this funding and the new changes coming with the early childhood
programs and subsidized and $10-a-day daycare, which is all good, there's a
problem with – I see a problem with the system that you have a couple of big
operators, and one of them happens to be in my district actually, they're
changing. It's more attractive to have the younger children in their daycares
and they're cutting out the afterschool program. In essence, they're doing that,
they're forcing parents in my district, and I have a growing district,
obviously, they're going to private enterprise now who are not subsidized and
they're doubling and tripling their costs. One lady today said the burden is
almost making her wonder is it worth working.
So from
a business model, more power to the business owner if it's attractive to go to
younger groups, I guess, why not. I don't like the way it's been dealt with and
handled and communicated to the parents. I mean, it's business. My problem is
we, as a province and the government department, are subsidizing them. You said
earlier accountability agreements with the MUN act, and I highlighted it the
minute you said it. I guess that's what I'm looking for.
You've
heard me in this House many times: public money is public money. There needs to
be a responsibility whether you work for the government, it's public money, you
have a job to do. If you're getting public funds – and I know it's a lot of
money because I've dealt with a lot of daycare operators in my district, and
Mary would know. It's a substantial amount of money, I mean, without the
Operating Grants those places would not be probably where they are today. But
there's no accountability. I think that's a glaring – and it's not no one's
fault, but it's an issue I think needs to be addressed because this is not going
to go away.
So we
have situations throughout the province where we have areas in rural and
Labrador that are looking for child care spaces, people are wondering what to
do. There's a lack of – and you have the growth areas in the metro region here
where it's like a pot of gold to a lot of those places and they're picking and
choosing how they're going to make the most money. At the end of the day, you
know who suffers, but at the end it's public money.
So I
guess there's probably a lot in that comment that I'm saying, but I think you
all know where I'm – by the head nod I think you know where I'm going with it.
So I think it's a big issue. It's probably a bigger issue than what we realize
it is and it's growing. It's becoming a bigger issue.
It's
something that we can debate probably a lot longer than today, but I think it's
an issue that needs to be addressed and it's ongoing. I don't know if you have
anything to share about that.
T. OSBORNE:
Yeah, absolutely. I hear
you. I mean, over the next six or 12 months the issue is bigger than it will be
12 months from now or 24 months from now, as we get more and more operators and
there's more choice for families in terms of where they can get early learning
and child care for their children.
Right
now, the demand far outweighs the supply, but that will turn as we get more
operators open and more ECEs into the system. What's a bigger problem today will
become a much less or lesser problem a year and two years and three years from
now.
But one
of the things – and Mary can expand on this – that we are looking at is as
contracts are renewed, especially as we get into $10 a day and the government
subsidy is even higher, based on the family contribution of $10 a day per child,
is what is reflected in the contract to give some level of protection, I guess,
if a family puts their child with an operation that they just don't – the
business owner just doesn't change the focus of the age group that they're
taking in and leaves the family left high and dry.
Like I
said, two years, three years from now, when the supply is much greater than it
is today, it will be less of an issue.
Mary,
did you want to speak to that a little?
M. GOSS-PROWSE:
Yes, I just wanted to
clarify, it's not that there's no accountability. There is within the contract.
They need to give us a set of audited statements at the end of the year. We need
to see that they haven't charged parents for things they shouldn't. So we do
have checks and balances in for what we're giving. What isn't there right now is
a requirement, like the minister said, to not change their business plan during
the year, let's say.
Where
we are moving to $10 a day and we are going to be instituting the wage grid
that's being developed into the Operating Grant so that the wages within child
care will be higher. Right now, we pay a significant supplement directly to ECEs
and that will work its way into the Operating Grant program so that it becomes
part of their wages, which will also be a benefit to those ECEs who are making
$17 or $18 an hour now, they'll be making $26, $27, $28 an hour when that's
rolled into their wage.
But as
with anything else, as those number go up, we are going to be making sure that
there's significant changes in the policies around the Operating Grant and we're
likely – that's part of when you mentioned about the professional services
piece, that would be one of the contractors that we'd be looking at to try and
take a look at that broader based funding, because now we will be funding a
significant portion of those centres' revenues, whereas, a couple of years ago
we were maybe at 40 or 50 per cent of their revenues. Now we're heading into
that 70 per cent range.
It's
absolutely on our radar, but with so many changes so quick in this past year, we
felt it needed a bigger review and we also felt we need to go back to the
stakeholders and talk to the organizations around child care, talk to ECEs, et
cetera, and get a broader sense of the changes that need to be made.
So when
we go to $10 a day you will see a significant difference. But, right now, many
of these are under current contracts and it would be a very difficult to go back
and change them at this point.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you very much.
CHAIR:
The Member's time has
expired.
MHA
Dinn.
J. DINN:
Thank you.
Just to pick up where I left off with regard to technology: Would it be
possible, if you can, with the district to find out just how many devices are
expiring. For schools, it's up to around 100, so I would like to get an idea and
where we're going to go to resolve that problem. That also applies to SMART
Boards that are going to have to be replaced as well.
Also, following up on that: infrastructure – and I'm talking about bandwidth in
this case. As I understand, new schools are usually – when they're being built
and the line coming in – at 250 megabytes per second download. Existing schools,
from what I gather, a lot of them, you have 100 megabytes per second, so it's a
lot slower coming in. That means that for students and teachers in the school
who might be using it, it will cap out; people will be booted off.
My question is, for the existing schools and where this kind of technology is so
important now, so integrated into the learning, what is the plan or in the
budget to upgrade the older schools up to the standard of the newer schools?
Have there been any discussions around that?
T. OSBORNE:
That's an excellent question. I know there are multiple departments involved in
the solution, Education being one of them and the English and francophone
districts. We also have other departments that are involved with increasing
bandwidth throughout the province. Government has been actively looking at
increasing bandwidth in areas where it needs to be increased. I think there's
been some public announcements on that just recently.
The federal government are involved with funding for schools in particular
where, when the school was constructed, the requirements were considerably less
than they are today. I know the English School District has been putting
equipment within the schools to help increase the signal for devices that are
being used and in communities. So the districts have been doing a good job with
that when issues are identified, putting devices within the schools to increase
the signal in the school.
Robyn, you probably have some idea of the funding that has been put into that
but …
R. HAYES:
So that would be included in the School Operations budget,
the operating grant that we
do give to the school districts each year. The minister is correct, the district
does provide those – I can't remember the name of the piece of equipment, but
they do have devices in the schools that do increase the bandwidth. I really
don't know the name of it.
J. DINN:
No and I might have a name
here. But I guess what I am going for, Minister, is that even within the city
there are older schools and there are the newer ones that are built, which are
going to be up to spec. But in some of the smaller schools, even here within the
city, the pipe coming in is too small; it's choking what they need in the
schools. The technology has increased in school without the necessary
infrastructure coming in. so that is something that has to be addressed for the
older schools.
Just go
back, one or two things here I wanted to follow up on. With the almost $2.4
million in substitute teacher savings, where would that money have gone? Would
that have just gone into paying off debt or would it have been redirected
somewhere else? It was a budgeted amount for over $5 million; there is only
$3.08 million. Is that just savings or is that paying – I'm just trying to get
an idea of where that would go. Would that be redirected toward other
programming?
R. HAYES:
So that Substitute Teachers - Professional Development, would have just went
into the regular substitute budget, which there was a significant increase in
substitute time during the year.
J. DINN:
Okay. So that's where it is.
I just
wanted to also, with regard to the purchase order process – and I want to give
you this as an example because this is widespread. You have to find some way to
streamline this as you're bringing it to the department. Here is the situation:
In this case, they are looking at bringing in the Aruba drops for the
networking. I don't know if that's the one you're talking about there, Robyn,
but it's the wireless network points needed for Chromebooks to be used.
In this
school they put in a $6,000 order before the fiscal year ended, but because of
COVID it wasn't received in hand to be qualified – it was disqualified. So that
$6,000 from the previous fiscal year is lost because use it or lose it, that
kind of approach.
When
they went to apply for – it was going to cost $12,000. Now, that $12,000 is
going to have to come out of their budget; they're going to have to figure that
out from their own school supplies. So in many ways, whereas they were told,
well, you can't have – COVID just delayed the process, no fault of the schools,
but as a result of that they lost out on the funding.
The
comment was made not by more than one school administrator: we're trying to get
this stuff in. We're dealing with issues in the school and there's absolutely no
leeway, it's just hard bureaucratic ends. Somewhere along the line it's
disadvantaging schools. I know you don't have an answer to this but I would like
this, if we're going to integrate this into the school system – and Mr. O'Leary,
as an administrator, really knows what I'm talking about here. That's got to be
addressed, as simple as that. There has to be some leeway given so schools are
not disadvantaged and they don't have to come up with the funding themselves.
The
other one has to do with the SmartFind and you need to be aware of this. The
teacher who – I won't go into all the details; I'll make you aware of it after.
It penalizes teachers in some ways. Again, there seems to be no willingness on
the part of, in this case, the district, to make allowances, but I'll bring that
up after this.
Moving
on then, the AG's most recent annual report noted that the NLESD did not fully
implement two recommendations made to it in 2018 regarding its management and
procurement practices. What work has been done since the release of the report
in January of this year to implement those recommendations?
T. OSBORNE:
I know that based on the
report – and COVID sounds like the excuse for everything, but I mean COVID did
delay some of the progress that the NLESD was undertaking – there was much
progress made in implementing the recommendations. But in speaking with Tony
Stack and others at the district, I understand that progress is well under way.
I do anticipate that the recommendations of the Auditor General's report, that
further progress will be made and those recommendations will be fulfilled.
J. DINN:
Thank you.
Any
update on the activities and work done by the Indigenous Education Advisory
Committee?
T. OSBORNE:
Brad?
B. CLARKE:
They are still a very active group. Completed Indigenous local course policy. We
have, I guess I'll call it, a final draft of the Indigenous education framework
document that's all been vetted through them. And we are now working on that
curriculum input as part of the cycle, how we ensure that Indigenous culture,
history and language are incorporated across kindergarten to Grade 12.
They
actually have their next meeting very soon, but we hope to enter discussions
whereby we can bring some hands-on, practical engagement from Indigenous
communities and knowledge keepers into all the schools of the province.
J. DINN:
Thank you very much.
With
regard to French language programs, why do we only receive a fraction of the
federal revenue we were expecting last year? That's 3.2.02.
B. CLARKE:
Mr. Dinn, that's more of an administrative issue. We had a very long-standing
employee whose job was the Federal-Provincial Official Languages Agreement
administrator. And very unfortunately she fell ill for many months, tried to
continue, sort of fell behind on the file a bit. We actioned a plan to sort of
catch up because that, unfortunately, individual had to retire.
I'm
happy to report that as of three days ago, we do have the necessary documents
ready now. So we'll have that rectified very quickly and we have put into play
sort of expanding the knowledge base of that process within the division so that
hopefully that'll never happen again.
J. DINN:
Thank you.
B. CLARKE:
I just would like to point out that of course – I didn't say this – we did
secure every dime that we were eligible for. The federal agreement understood
our circumstance and said we'll hold it until you get the reports in. So there's
no net loss of any of it.
J. DINN:
Good.
CHAIR:
Okay. The Member's time has
expired.
MHA
Petten.
B. PETTEN:
Are we done this section 3?
CHAIR:
We're still in section
3.1.01.
B. PETTEN:
Does Mr. Dinn have any more
questions in that section or we can move to section 4?
CHAIR:
Do you have any more
questions?
J. DINN:
I can quickly go through them.
CHAIR:
He does.
B. PETTEN:
Well, I'll ask some general.
J. DINN:
Yeah, go for it.
CHAIR:
Okay, MHA Petten.
B. PETTEN:
I got one for that section.
Just a final thing.
Mary,
when you were just talking there – we were talking about cutting out the after
school to go to the younger children. Some businesses are doing that. When the
renewal comes – I think me and the minister spoke about this as well – there
will be a minimum requirement so something like this doesn't happen, better
protections. Is that what we're looking at when you sign new agreements? As
you're going to funding up to 70 per cent I don't think it's unreasonable to
look for something better – sureties and put people in the lurch they're put in
now.
T. OSBORNE:
You're correct. So we will
be looking at some protection for families. If a family enrols a student in a
program that there's an acceptable level of notice, if a business is going to
look to change the age groups that they bring in, that would give adequate time
for a parent to be able to look for another service.
Again,
I know the supply issues will resolve themselves over time and this will become
less of a problem, but certainly it's something that's on our radar and we're
looking at options as to what can be put into a contract when they're renewed
based on both the fact that we're going to $10 and the wage grid, and rolling
the wage supplement into the operating grant program and so on. So there are a
number of changes that are going to be taking place with the contract. So it's a
good time to look at what else we put in the contract.
B. PETTEN:
Okay, thanks.
Minister, has there been any cost analysis done or benefit analysis on the new
film and television school? Is it going to be cost neutral?
T. OSBORNE:
The College of the North
Atlantic, after the initial start-up funding, which was in this year's budget,
they'll be able to operate the additional programming through the existing
College of the North Atlantic funding. So they have that capacity and the
ability – they are looking at programs throughout the province that are being
offered to determine what the labour market demands are and what programs are
best offered by the college. There are some programs that are best offered by
the private colleges versus the College of the North Atlantic and there are
instances where the College of the North Atlantic and the private colleges
actually compete and neither of the classrooms are full.
But
looking at the labour market demands, the film and television school, for the
foreseeable future, we anticipate very strong enrolment. September is very close
so I am not saying that the classes will be full in September, but I do
anticipate next year that they will be once the word gets out.
There
are memorandums of understanding with three other institutes now that offer
similar programming where if somebody is going to the Toronto Film School, for
example, they may be able to upgrade their training at ours and transfer credits
or vice versa. So it is already well under way to being a very recognized campus
across the country because of those MOUs.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you.
Minister, Teacher Allocation Review Committee, has there been any word on where
they are in that process or any anticipated timeline completion?
T. OSBORNE:
We do have an anticipated
time. They have asked for an extension to July, is it?
OFFICIAL:
Yes.
T. OSBORNE:
Yeah, to July. But up to
this stage, I haven't been interviewed or spoken with them, So I don't know
where they are in the process.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
T. OSBORNE:
I mean it is completely
arm's length; I wouldn't be able to speak to that. They would probably take a
question from you directly. I do know that a week or so ago they wrote asking
for an extension to July.
B. PETTEN:
Will that be made public or
provided when you receive it and whatever?
T. OSBORNE:
Yes.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
G. O'LEARY:
I'll just add to that, MHA Petten, that they're meeting with department
officials today. This is our time to go in for a meeting.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
G. O'LEARY:
Right, so we're just like any other group. We go in to the meeting objectively
and we don't know what they're going to ask or propose or whatever, but they're
meeting with officials today.
B. PETTEN:
Okay, thank you.
Prekindergarten pilot project, what is the latest with that?
T. OSBORNE:
It is well under way. We do
anticipate a number of locations throughout the province, both on the Island and
in Labrador, come September. So work is moving as expeditiously as it can to
ensure that the program is up and running for September.
I
think, based on the fact that it is a pilot program, there is a great deal of
effort in ensuring that we've got a good coverage of urban and rural throughout
the province. The pilot program will then help guide the establishment of
additional sites the following September.
B. PETTEN:
Will that have any impact on
the existing child care centres? There are 3,100 spaces so is it going to have
any negative impact on any of those?
T. OSBORNE:
We don't anticipate it would
be significant and as we move to $10 a day the demand for early learning and
child care is going to be increased even again. So we don't anticipate that if
there are children – the other aspect is the fact that this is pre-K, not all of
the children will be coming from the existing operations of early learning and
child care. If you have a four-year-old child and you say, you know I like the
concept of pre-K, so you register for pre-K but your child has never been
involved in early learning previously.
So for both of those reasons
– the fact that the demand has increased now – we didn't see the demand
pressures on early learning three years ago that we see today and they are going
to be increased even further when we go to $10 a day because it is more
affordable. So we don't anticipate, you know, a significant impact on the
existing operators.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
I guess to Early Childhood
again, it seems to be my topic. Where are we getting the extra workers? I know
there is extra funding that they're trying to increase the pay, increase the
recruitment, but I guess my question is: What's the plan with the recruitment?
As we know now the workforce is a challenge so where is the plan to get – we are
looking at a big expansion so what is the plan in place to deal with the extra
(inaudible)?
T. OSBORNE:
So there are a number of
things both in the short term and long term to increase the number of ECEs that
are in the system. Long term are the 700 seats that we have through the College
of the North Atlantic, Keyin and Academy Canada. So that's longer term.
Obviously, those individuals need to train.
Shorter term we have the
earn while you learn so that you can actually be in the classroom and in the
workplace, you know, while doing your course. We've got the home-based
operations where we are looking to expand the home based which will provide
additional spaces, but we have also got a database of people who trained and are
qualified to be ECEs who have left the sector and sought employment elsewhere;
whether it's in the service sector or fast food sector or other settings. But
they left because the pay didn't reflect the work that they are doing.
Now that the level of pay is
going to be more reflective of the work that they're doing, we are actively
reaching out to try and re-recruit those individuals who have trained and are
eligible to be ECEs to work as ECEs. We've got a pretty solid database of people
that we are looking to reintegrate into the sector. Some will come; some may
decide to stay where they've gone. So we've got that.
In terms of the pre-K, first
priority as we indicated during our announcement will be for Level 3 or higher
ECEs. Both the ECEs that are currently in the system and the ECEs that we're
trying to attract back to the sector, but in areas where we cannot get an ECE
that's Level 3 or higher, we are looking to retired primary educators for the
pre-K sector as well.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you.
CHAIR:
Okay, thank you.
The
Member's time has expired.
MHA
Dinn.
J. DINN:
Thank you, Chair.
Just
with regard to child care, and I've mentioned this to you, Minister, as well,
when we're looking at new schools, maybe there is a way of attaching child care
centres to the school, so you have, I guess, a one-stop shop for everyone. But I
think it's a model that's worth considering for parents especially having to
drop them off. That's a model. I don't know if that's something that can be done
to retrofit some schools as well, but it's an idea that I think is worth
pursuing.
With
regard to the pre-K, and just to follow up on what my colleague asked: Where is
the space? We've identified, I guess, schools that have the space?
T. OSBORNE:
We have. In consultation
with our school districts, both the English and the francophone, we've
identified – for the pilot program, this will be entirely within schools that
have the primary setting.
J. DINN:
Right.
T. OSBORNE:
On the previous topic that
you raised, you're absolutely correct. The three new schools we're looking at
and remodeling an existing as well, but for the three new schools, we will be
looking at not only pre-K but other early learning. Because if we can have
children within the school setting from the time they start early learning to
the time they go to kindergarten, the children are better served and it's more
convenient for parents as well. So that is absolutely something that's part of
our plan as we move forward, just as it is for pre-K.
So the
pilot program, we've identified a number of schools throughout the province that
have space available to allow the pre-K for the pilot program. We've also
identified a number of schools beyond the pilot program because the pilot
program, you don't want to jump too quickly and too deep into the deep end, so
to speak. So the pilot program will help ensure that the program is as we want
it to be and adjustments can be made then as we expand it the following year, if
need be.
We've
identified schools that are capable, have the space available for the pilot
program, as well as for following years and we'll be working with those schools.
Some schools may involve some retrofits in order to incorporate the pre-K; some
are easier. So the schools that are easier to get into are the ones that we'll
look at for the pilot program as well.
But we
have identified schools and we're working with school districts and with the
Division of Early Learning now to ensure that the areas that are identified, we
also identify the ECEs to work in those sectors. And in the very, very near
future we will be making available to the public the list of the sites selected
for the pre-K pilot program so that parents can register.
J. DINN:
What's the cap on the pre-K?
Is it going to be the same as kindergarten, 20?
T. OSBORNE:
That will be announced, I
think, as part of the announcement when we roll out the pre-K program, the pilot
program, in its entirety. That will be coming very, very soon.
J. DINN:
Okay, thank you.
Are
there any people over there who were primary educators? Okay, I have a reason
why I'm asking that. I just want to give you some numbers and why I ask the
class size.
Grade
2: 28, one school; Grade 4: two Grade 4 classes, 30 kids in each class; Grade 5
class, 30 young people in each class. I taught high school and I taught high
school with 30 kids. I can tell you, academically, no problem, but it will be a
very brave individual to go into a primary grade of 30 individuals of Grade 2,
3, 4, I don't care what. That has to be addressed. If we're going to have these
little kids who are going from pre-K to kindergarten where they have 20 in a
class and then up to Grade 1, and then the cap is 25, it is unfair.
So,
Minister, I can't urge you enough that has to be addressed. I don't know what
this Committee is going to come back with but, to me, I taught high school my
entire career in junior high, but 30 primary kids is a challenge for a teacher
but, more importantly, it is a challenge for the students.
With
regard to French immersion, what is the status of that? Because it seems to be
under attack or the schools seem to be under threat of losing it. I know the
most recent one was out in the Crescent Collegiate in Blaketown. Where does the
department stand on French immersion, whether it is early French immersion or
late French immersion? Is there a desire to keep it or is there a desire to see
it end and let the francophone school take care of the francophone or French
education?
T. OSBORNE:
No, I mean, there is
certainly a desire to keep the French immersion. The francophone school simply
doesn't have the locations throughout the province to be able to take students
who wish to do French. Much of it does rely on the English stream with the
French immersion. There is a desire to keep it in cases where enrolment doesn't
warrant it are the cases that we hear about. If you've got two or three students
enroled for French immersion, it is difficult to justify putting a teaching unit
in place for a cohort of three students.
So we
have been working with schools in those cases to combine grades where the
parents are open and amenable to looking at combining grades so that we are able
to keep French immersion in that school. But we also work with communities to
try and encourage increased enrolment in the French immersion stream. It is
challenging because it largely depends on the desire of the community, the
parents and the students in that community to enrol in French immersion. It is
purely a factor of enrolment.
J. DINN:
Is there a plan to promote
it? I mean to recruit because speaking as an anglophone, myself, and whose limit
was: Tu connais Marcel Martin? Oui, nous sommes de bons copains – that was the
extent of my high school education in French, but it has value. Is there any
plan, I guess, or strategy in the department to recruit or to encourage people
to – it improves your job opportunities as well.
T. OSBORNE:
Absolutely. I think not only
are students well served by having the French. My French is very limited as
well. We could get into the battle of who knows less in terms of French, but
I've got a repertoire of about three or four sentences that I remember from
French in school. I wish I knew more.
Promoting is something that we absolutely need to look at, because not only are
the students well served, I think the province is well served.
J. DINN:
Okay.
That's
it for me, Chair.
CHAIR:
Okay, thank you.
I ask
the Clerk to recall the grouping.
CLERK:
Kindergarten to Grade 12
Education and Early Childhood Development, 3.1.01 through 3.6.01 inclusive.
CHAIR:
Shall Kindergarten to Grade
12 Education and Early Childhood Development, 3.1.01 to 3.6.01 carry?
All
those in favour, 'aye.'
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
CHAIR:
Carried.
On
motion, subheads 3.1.01 through 3.6.01 carried.
CHAIR:
I ask the Clerk to call the
next grouping.
CLERK:
Post-Secondary Education,
4.1.01 through 4.4.02 inclusive.
CHAIR:
Post-Secondary Education,
4.1.01 to 4.4.02.
MHA
Petten.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you, Chair.
It's
been a long week, hasn't it?
Under
4.2.01, MUN's Operations, a couple of questions there. The Regular Operating
Grant is up approximately $14 million in the revised last year. It's dropped
back, but it's still an increase of $8 million.
R. HAYES:
The increase during '21-'22
relates again to collective bargaining negotiated salary increases, as well as
early severance payouts.
B. PETTEN:
Okay.
The
Tuition Offset has dropped $8 million; is that as a result of the declining
year-over-year amount for the tuition reduction?
T. OSBORNE:
So the Tuition Offset is
just over $13 million a year over five years. The agreement with Memorial was $6
million of that is forgivable this year, one-time only. It was actually just
over $7 million this year in terms of a reduction for the Tuition Offset.
B. PETTEN:
Okay, thank you.
Under
4.2.02, Loans, Advances and Investments, again that was budgeted at $10 million
last year and now we're down to $3.5 million. That is a $7 million reduction
basically.
R. HAYES:
That $10.5 million budget
related to the Holyrood Marine Base. During the year, they were able to complete
a portion of the work, about 70 per cent of it, and the $3.5 million is a carry
forward from the work that didn't get done in '21-'22.
B. PETTEN:
That's a beautiful building.
Under
MUN maintenance, I'm assuming Grants and Subsidies would be for towards MUN for
the maintenance. Am I correct?
T. OSBORNE:
I didn't hear you.
B. PETTEN:
I'm in section 4.2.02.
T. OSBORNE:
What was your question
again, Barry, sorry?
B. PETTEN:
It's not really clear. I'm
in 4.2.02. I guess what I'm looking at is MUN's expected maintenance. As we
know, maintenance at MUN, their infrastructure repairs or whatever – is that in
that section? Maybe it's not in that section. Maybe I might be mistaking my
question, but I'm wondering about the deferred maintenance costs at MUN.
T. OSBORNE:
So I mean, it would be.
There's not a carved out amount for maintenance. MUN determine –
B. PETTEN:
An envelope.
T. OSBORNE:
Part of the reason for the
footprint freeze at the moment is we want to ensure that MUN is able to manage
and maintain the infrastructure they have before we continue on with expansion
of footprint.
There
is a deferred maintenance at Memorial. That's obviously a concern not only for
Memorial but for government as well. So those are some of the discussions we're
having with Memorial as we proceed to moving in to the upgrades or changes to
the MUN act.
B. PETTEN:
Okay, thank you.
Under
4.3.01, CNA's Tuition Offset Grant for $14.9 million never changed even though
tuition is increasing.
T. OSBORNE:
Yeah. So we didn't see the
change through the college that we did through Memorial. I mean, Memorial came
to us early last year and had indicated that they were moving forward with the
doubling of tuitions. When they had indicated that to government, we looked at
the Tuition Offset Grant and said, well, you know, the reason for the Tuition
Offset Grant to Memorial was simply to freeze tuitions so that was the reason we
made the decision to eliminate that over five years, but we didn't see the
corresponding changes at the college.
B. PETTEN:
Okay, thank you.
Minister, in 4.4.01, Grants and Subsidies, there was $9.2 million budgeted last
year, $6.3 million spent, but we're back up to $7.4 million. So what's the
rationale for that?
R. FEAVER:
MHA Petten, that's the result of federal increase in their funding. So that
funding was increased last year as a result of COVID, maintained this year and
will be maintained again next year. So because of the stacking model of the
program, no student was less off. They got, actually, probably even more grant
through the federal program, just resulting in less expenditure for us.
B. PETTEN:
Okay. Thanks for that.
On that
same topic, I guess, student loans, so what are we looking at in default with
student loans? Is there a dollar value, a number of individuals affected? Do you
have that actual list? Do you have an idea or that number?
R. FEAVER:
The default rate rises and falls over each year. If I go back five years, we've
seen it at 5 per cent, 6 per cent. Last year, or as of March 31, it sat about 7
per cent. It's about $1.2 million defaulted on this past year based on the
opening balance
for the account back last
April. So that number varies again from one year to the next.
Overall, the value of the defaulted loans has decreased because the value of the
portfolio has decreased, so we're seeing a smaller number of that. I don't have
the exact numbers; I can get you that. It's probably here in my notes here, but
I'll get you that. But that would be the value of that.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you.
Minister, probably more of a general question because I'm coming to the close of
my commentary. Basically, I suppose what it is, is a report from the board, what
are the school priorities for the province? I know that's a broad question, I
suppose, short, medium and long term. Where do we go to from here is the thing,
because there are a lot of changes in your department, as we know, with the
school districts and the francophone school boards and the early child educator
and daycare issues and what have you. What are we looking at, I suppose? Really,
I suppose I'm looking more short term than anything, in the immediate future.
T. OSBORNE:
In terms of (inaudible)?
B. PETTEN:
Yeah, I suppose just in
general what can we envision? Because there are a lot of things happening, we've
talked about most all the prekindergarten. Yeah, so what can we expect, I guess?
T. OSBORNE:
Well, I mean, outside of the
changes to the MUN act, as you know we have the changes in terms of pre-K, which
is a significant shift for the province. That was negotiated with the federal
government as part of the early learning program and quite delighted because as
part of the early learning program the feds pay for pre-K in the province,
versus the province having to pay for junior kindergarten.
In
terms of the early learning itself, as you know, moving to $25 and then $15 and
then $10 a day is a significant shift in that regard as well.
The
transfer of the English School District into the department is a process. We've
already seen some progress on it. It will be a couple of years before we see
full integration of the district in. I mean, part of that when you look at
procurement it's easier to transfer that in than it is IT. IT is more
complicated because there are licensing agreements and different IT suites and
so on. But you will see over the next 12 months significant progress in terms of
the transition.
Some of
that will be longer term. The more complicated, as I said, the IT is a little
more complicated than teacher payroll or procurement. But the shift from the
district to the department in terms of responsibility will happen. Some of the
other pieces will be a little slower to happen.
We are
in a transition, and I'll ask the deputy to speak a little more to this, not too
much more but a little more. We are in a transition as well. I mean, obviously,
our budget for Education over the last decade or so has doubled. We're still one
of the lowest in terms of PISA ratings across the country, for example.
If you
compare our students to students in Ontario or in Alberta or in BC, the content
knowledge is just as strong or stronger in this province than it is in other
provinces. But the critical thinking component is something that we need to
integrate more into our schools and that's something that we've been putting a
great deal of thought into and the process is starting.
Over
the next couple of years – and part of the reason for bringing the English
School District is not just operational efficiencies and fiscal efficiencies, it
is so that we have one unified group of people looking to transform and
transition the delivery of education, allowing educators to become education
creators as opposed to just education deliverers. They deliver the content,
which is what they've been asked to do and they do an excellent job at it, but
they need to create that critical thinking and the higher order thinking.
Greg,
did you want to speak a little to that?
G. O'LEARY:
I think the minister has
done a great job in outlining, I'll just say a couple of really quick things.
One of the goals of sort of the next five years, if you were to pan out a little
bit, would be around the improvement of educational outcomes in the K-to-12
system.
Our
students, as the minister has said, often rank number one in the country in
terms of content knowledge. Mental math, they know the math, but we probably
don't spend enough time – and this is not at the feet of the district or the
department, this is something that everyone needs to work to together – we
probably don't spend enough time on the application of high-order thinking,
working in teams, working on real world problems, things to that effect.
Developing competencies in students.
We have
the most educated teacher workforce in the country. That's just a fact in terms
of master's degrees and qualifications and everything else, but we focus a lot
on content. So we're really going to try to focus on a model that we don't want
to throw out the baby with the bathwater, we want to keep that strong content
background that we have in Newfoundland and Labrador. But we want to spend more
time on the application of that content, problem-imposed curriculum and aligning
our pedagogy, our curriculum and our assessment with some of those international
trends around higher-order thinking, and that's the way the world is moving.
That's the way hiring is moving. That's the global workforce that we have now.
There's
expertise in this area, the district, there's expertise at the department, but
it's about taking a concerted effort and focusing it – as the minister said,
we've almost doubled the Education budget since 2003 and we haven't had a
substantial improvement in those outcomes. So I think we have a good plan. It's
going to take everybody pulling together. As part of this, not, again, to lay it
on the feet of anyone, but that's going to be the focus over the next while. I'm
really glad you asked that question. I appreciate it.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you.
CHAIR:
The Member's time has
expired.
MHA
Dinn.
J. DINN:
Thank you, Chair.
I'm
going to start with PISA. I think we have to be cautious about when we're
measuring ourselves against PISA which is a test produced by an economic
organization, which is not about education. I fully agree that when it comes to
the assessment, I think we have good people in the department, in the district,
in the school system. As to what it is we want to accomplish and what are the
standards and we measure that, I think it serves a purpose to look at comparison
but it shouldn't be the only factor in judging who we are in the success of the
education system. All you have to do is look at the awards, Minister, that
you've been passing out with regard to the short film awards and so on and so
forth. We're doing well.
So I
have problems with using PISA and other international standards. We are
concerned about our own here. Mental math, I'll tell you something else, I've
heard more than one complaint about the math program. Kids don't know how to do
math in multiplication. I'm of the opinion if God wanted me to learn
multiplication, he wouldn't have invented the calculator, but I will tell you
that what I've heard – we focus on a lot of teachers tell you children are
tuning in. The program does work.
Half
the time, though, instead of throwing it out, there's this political movement
and pressure –and I'm not talking about at this level, in this society. It does
work; we just need to give it a chance to work at times. The math program does
work. Maybe not for me, but I do remember flashcards and multiplication tables
and they never served me in any way, shape or form, but I think the newer math,
the way they're doing it, the children are picking it up and it's a success. In
other words, tweak it is all I'm saying on that.
Critical thinking, yes, I think more than ever, if you seen anything in the last
two years, critical thinking is a must especially with social media. It has to
be because, otherwise, the society is becoming polarized and that's the outcome.
Anyway, I will get off of my soapbox right now.
Just with regard to 4.2.01,
Operations – I might jump around a little bit. Physical Plant and Equipment of
MUN – to your satisfaction, are all of the flood mitigation measures adequate
now with regard to that Core Science building? Because there was some concern
that where the mental health facility was the water levels could actually flow
into the new building. Has that been, as far as you understand, totally
mitigated and addressed or any potential there?
T. OSBORNE:
I think that's probably more
of a question for Transportation and Infrastructure. We haven't been involved in
those discussions. So we trust the engineers over there and, hopefully, what
they are doing will work.
J. DINN:
Okay. It is a beautiful
building, by the way, from what I have seen on the outside. It is very striking.
What are the plans then in terms of the Chemistry-Physics Building and the
Science Building? Are they going to be renovated, demolished, repurposed? Any
idea what is going to happen there?
T. OSBORNE:
I understand, in discussions
with Memorial, they are looking at what that building will be required for. The
new Core Science building is primarily lab space and so on. They don't have the
lecture halls in the new Core Science building. So there is still a need for
lecture space. My understanding is the Chemistry building may be repurposed and
more lecture space as required.
J. DINN:
Okay, that is excellent. It
needed a bit of TLC, but I would hate to see it demolished.
Under 4.1.01, Literacy and
Institutional Services, are there any plans to expand the foundational literary
program at the Gathering Place to other organizations? Last year it was
mentioned that there were a number of successes associated with this initiative.
T. OSBORNE:
There is. I know we have
been working with the Gathering Place. That is an initiative that the department
had undertaken with the Gathering Place to bring the folks at the Murphy Centre,
who are very good at delivering some of these programs to the Gathering Place,
understanding that the clients at the Gathering Place wouldn't necessarily go
and knock on the door of the Murphy Centre and say they need help. But bringing
the help to the Gathering Place has proven to be very successful.
So it is a model that not
only are we looking at it at the Gathering Place but in other locations. It has
proven to be very successful. Money well invested. You don't always get those
who need the numeracy and literacy knocking on the door of those who supply it,
but if those who supply it bring it to those who need it, sometimes it works
really well.
J. DINN:
Thank you.
With
the anticipated tuition hike at MUN, is government planning to allocate more
funding to the needs-based grants program to help students to cover the
increased cost?
T. OSBORNE:
We've done that. Rob, did
you want to speak to that?
R. FEAVER:
Sure.
Just
too, if I can, if I can take some liberties, MHA Petten, back to your question
on – it's 566 students defaulted on their loans; $1.2 million is accurate and
that number is similar to other years; no up and down, almost a steady amount.
Back to
your question on that one, the grant, if you look in the Grants and Subsidies
going from $9.275 million down to $6.3 million is a result of the increase in
the federal program. Without the tuition relief grant, we would expect to see
the same thing happen in '22-'23, but the new tuition relief grant will bring
that value up. The expected expenditure for next year is budgeting at about $2.1
million to fund that new tuition relief grant.
J. DINN:
While the plan is to cut
MUN's operating grant while allowing the university to raise tuition, will these
measures result in a net increase in income for Memorial, or will their income
remain about the same? As a context, there are many departments in the
university that are woefully underfunded as it is, and the net neutral change to
their funding sources will not help these departments, so instead this would
just move, pass the burden of maintaining the status quo to the students.
T. OSBORNE:
I understand MUN is looking
at their ability to raise funds. There are some in the university that reach out
very solidly to their alumni and are very successful. I understand MUN is
looking at that. In terms of the tuition offset versus the tuition increases, it
will take somewhere between four and five years for MUN's tuition increases to
fully replace the offset that's being taken out over five years.
The
decrease in tuition freeze funding is designed to allow MUN to – with what
they've explained to us, their increase in tuition, when we went to decrease the
tuition freeze, we looked at what their increase in tuition would be and the
length of time. So they shouldn't be adversely impacted by the tuition
In discussion with the
president of Memorial, they are looking at other initiatives as well to become
more competitive with some of the other post-secondary institutions across the
country in terms of outreach and other revenue.
J. DINN:
Thank you.
4.3.02, College of the North
Atlantic: Are there any planned renovations or upgrades to the physical plant
and equipment for this year or the foreseeable future?
T. OSBORNE:
I'm sorry. Could you repeat
that?
J. DINN:
Sure thing. Are there any
planned renovations or upgrades to the physical plant and the equipment for this
year and for the foreseeable future?
T. OSBORNE:
The plant, you mean the –
J. DINN:
The physical plant of the
building at the College of the North Atlantic itself.
T. OSBORNE:
Oh sorry. To the College of
the North Atlantic, I will have to get that information from you. I will seek
that out from Liz Kidd.
J. DINN:
Okay, thank you.
How many students are
currently receiving financial assistance under 4.4.01, Administration, Student
Financial Services?
R. FEAVER:
We report those numbers, MHA Dinn, based on program years. So we are currently
in the middle of a program year that doesn't end until July 31. So for last
year, we were a little over 6,800 students receiving student aid last year.
J. DINN:
And only roughly you're
looking at about 556 students who default?
R. FEAVER:
Five hundred and sixty six students who defaulted. Now that number I do get on a
fiscal year basis so that is as of March 31, just this past couple of months
ago.
J. DINN:
And that's consistent.
R. FEAVER:
If I look at the last five years that would be right around the average for the
last five years.
J. DINN:
Thank you.
CHAIR:
Okay. The Member's time has
expired.
MHA Petten.
B. PETTEN:
In the spirit of time. It's
Friday and it's lunchtime, I have one question.
T. OSBORNE:
What's for lunch?
B. PETTEN:
Yeah.
Minister, I missed to ask
this earlier, it I would have been done otherwise. Leary's Brook Junior High,
the Grade 7s, I am told there are 36 children in the French immersion class.
That is a high number, obviously, and especially with the extra requirements of
the learning with French immersion. So, obviously, it's not – I don't think it's
satisfactory, but do you have any advice or any comments or explanations?
G. O'LEARY:
First of all, once it exceeds the hard cap, MHA Petten, that class is split,
right. So I'd have to look into that situation because that, to me, is over hard
cap right now.
T. OSBORNE:
Hard cap, I believe, is 34.
So if it is 36 – it is 34, I believe, the hard cap.
B. PETTEN:
This is for September now,
right. We're looking at for this coming September, that's the number we've been
told.
T. OSBORNE:
Yeah, Barry, if the number
stays at 36, it'll obviously have to be two classes. If it drops to 34 it's one,
because that's the hard cap, or lower. But if it stays above 34, it would have
to be split into two classes.
B. PETTEN:
Okay. That's fair enough.
That was basically the crux of my concern.
G. O'LEARY:
And that just goes back to the comments earlier about the French immersion. The
French immersion program, we talked about how you're going to promote it and all
that. The French immersion program is absolutely thriving here in Newfoundland
and Labrador.
B. PETTEN:
It is, yeah.
G. O'LEARY:
It's totally thriving. So I think it promotes itself. The issue is not around
promoting it; the issue is around having enough resources –
B. PETTEN:
Managing it.
G. O'LEARY:
– around it.
T. OSBORNE:
Most of the schools have a
healthy French immersion population, but we do have schools where enrolment is
low and it's in those areas that maybe we need some promotion of the benefits of
French immersion. But there are only a handful of schools where the enrolment is
low and struggling. Most of the schools, the enrolment is satisfactory.
B. PETTEN:
Thank you very much.
On that
note, I want to thank each and every one of you for the time and answering our
questions. (Inaudible) to you, Minister, I appreciate it and to our Chair and
the Clerk.
On that
note, thanks.
CHAIR:
MHA Dinn.
J. DINN:
I'll just finish off with
this. There are a few other technical questions, but I can leave those.
You
talked about outcomes and content. I think if we want to start looking at
improving outcomes, 34, 36 in a class is not going to do it. What you'll end up
focusing on is the content. But I know that in a large class, the whole idea of
encouraging critical thinking becomes a severe challenge. So to me, whether it's
French immersion or the English stream, you've got to bring it down so that the
teacher and the people who are in the classroom, the TLAs and/or the students
have that ability to work with more individual attention.
I can
tell you that in a large class you are not getting that individualized
instruction. Especially if the class has challenging needs and they have other
academic challenges, that I promise you. No matter how good the teacher is or
the people in there, you need to bring them down.
I will
say here, thank you again for the work you do and for answering the questions
because you really have no preparation as to what we might ask. I thank you for
promising to get back the information to us, especially that report on the
integration of the NLESD and the Department of Education, now that I know there
is a consultant's report, I can hardly wait. It's going to be some wonderful
reading over the next few weeks.
G. O'LEARY:
Just really quickly a couple
of things there. You mentioned the teacher, we talked about the number of
students in the class, that's important, too, but the teacher, all the research
shows is this is the number one detriment.
Going
back to your comment about PISA, it's not about scores for us, that's not what's
going to drive the way we do our work for the next five years, but what PISA
does focus on is critical thinking and high-order thinking. What we're
interested in – and I think you'll appreciate this MHA Dinn – is engagement.
We're interested in student engagement.
I think
right now in our province our student engagement is down. I think that's
something that the district would say to you, too, through their surveys as
well. So when your critical thinking gets up and your high-order thinking gets
up, your student engagement gets up, students want to be in school. They're more
interested in being in school. The work that we do with the teachers around the
pedagogy, not just the content but the application of it, that's a really big
part of it.
J. DINN:
More engaged students with
smaller classes, I'm just saying.
Thank
you.
CHAIR:
Okay, thank you.
I ask
the Clerk to recall the grouping.
CLERK:
Post-Secondary Education,
4.1.01 to 4.4.02 inclusive.
CHAIR:
Shall Post-Secondary
Education, 4.1.01 to 4.4.02 carry?
All
those in favour, 'aye.'
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
CHAIR:
Carried.
On
motion, subheads 4.1.01 through 4.4.02 carried.
CHAIR:
I ask the Clerk to call the
total.
CLERK:
The totals.
CHAIR:
Shall the total carry?
All
those in favour, 'aye.'
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
CHAIR:
Carried.
On
motion, Department of Education, total heads, carried.
CHAIR:
Shall I report the Estimates
of the Department of Education carried?
All
those in favour, 'aye.'
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
CHAIR:
Carried.
On
motion, Estimates of the Department of Education carried without amendment.
CHAIR:
Okay, this brings us to the
end. I don't know if the minister has anything additional to say?
T. OSBORNE:
I just wanted to thank
everybody for the questions and suggestions. We had some suggestions this
morning that we'll certainly follow through on, but I wanted to thank the
Committee and, in particular, the staff for coming and sitting in this place of
great debate.
CHAIR:
Thank you, Minister.
The
next meeting will be at the call of the Chair.
Can I
ask for a mover for the motion to adjourn the meeting?
L. STOYLES:
So moved.
CHAIR:
The meeting has been
adjourned by the MHA for Mount Pearl North.
Thank
you.
On
motion, the Committee adjourned
sine die.