The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour.

MR LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Member for St. John's South stood before the House of Assembly and implied in his questions to government that there were inadequate measures in place to address the potential for an environmental emergency, such as an oil spill, that might occur as a result of offshore oil production activity. The impression created yesterday by the hon. member was that other provinces that do not have an oil industry are farther ahead in terms of oil spill prevention and response. Mr. Speaker, we believe that these statements will unfairly cause concern: the people of this Province need to know that there is in fact a great deal of planning and equipment in place in the Province.

I rise today to provide hon. members with accurate information and a clear understanding of the measures that are currently in place to deal with the potential for oil spills off the coast of this Province. The level of planning, training and equipment is so extensive that I can only give examples in the short time I have today.

Mr. Speaker, the Province has been active in oil spill response over the past twenty years. More recently, since the 1970s, there has been a major effort on the part of the federal and provincial governments, and on the part of the offshore oil industry to ensure all the right measures are in place to prevent oil spills in the first instance through regulation and education, and secondly, to be able to respond immediately and effectively with clean-up operations.

Operators of offshore production installations are required by regulations administered by the Canada-Newfoundland Petroleum Board under the Atlantic Accord Implementation Acts to have contingency plans for emergency situations, including oil spills. As well, operators are required to ensure that personnel are properly trained in their response duties, and are obliged to conduct annually a formal spill countermeasures exercise. In the event of a spill, the Board is the lead government agency for ensuring the responsible company takes appropriate action.

Mr. Speaker, government and the oil companies have made this matter a major priority and have contributed many years of planning and resources to ensuring they are prepared to respond safely and effectively to an oil spill off our coast. Hibernia Management Development Corporation for example, has ensured that their two new platform support vessels are all spill recovery class and capable of operating as independent oil spill response units. Oil spill response equipment is held on board the platform for immediate deployment. As well, of course, the Hibernia tankers are double hull.

All vessels operating in Canadian waters and marine oil handling facilities are required to have approved oil spill response plans in place under the Canada Shipping Act as administered by the Canadian Coast Guard.

As a result of this, Eastern Canada Response Corporation (ECRC) was established, funded by the shipping and marine oil handling facilities owners. In Newfoundland alone, the corporation has invested between $8 million and $9 million in response equipment. This includes five miles of oil containment boom, a large number of skimmers, fifteen dedicated vessels and several barges, as well as necessary support equipment such as a mobile operation centre and a stand alone communication system. ECRC has 120 trained personnel located throughout the Province with four full time senior staff located in St. John's at the main depot. Mr. Speaker, ECRC is capable of responding to an oil spill up to 10,000 tonnes of oil with all equipment on site within seventy-two hours. Additional people and equipment can be deployed from the sister company, the Great Lakes Response Corporation.

Mr. Speaker, ECRC is continually training and upgrading. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, the spill cooperatives are holding their 6th Annual Meeting here in St. John's today as we speak. The ECRC has participated in many public information sessions and has had an open house and provided tours on request. Today they will be inviting the hon. Member for St. John's South to tour the facility and see the equipment on site.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR LANGDON: Canadian Coast Guard itself maintains a greater than 10,000 tonne oil spill capability. Four of the fourteen Coast Guard vessels have been refitted to operate offshore response equipment and 300 Coast Guard Officers and crew have received oil spill response training. Coast Guard maintains oil spill response equipment at St. John's, Stephenville, Come By Chance, Burin, Burgeo, St. Anthony, Goose Bay and Twillingate.

In addition, Coast Guard has an air surveillance program for marine pollution. The effectiveness of this was recently demonstrated when a vessel was sighted nearby an oil slick and subsequently detained by the Coast Guard in St. John's.

In all of this, Mr. Speaker, the provincial government has been and will continue to be an active player in effective oil spill response for Eastern Canada.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister, anybody can read a statement, I hope you can answer my questions today. This statement has opened the door for some questions today. I thank the minister.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. A. REID: Mr. Speaker, first of all let me apologize to my hon. colleague, the Member for St. John's South, in being almost four days late. I told him last week that I would deal with the question of social housing in two weeks and I am three days over - I am sure he will forgive me.

Mr. Speaker, I rise to day to announce the results of a promised review of the rent-geared-to-income scale for tenants of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

In the time since I announced the review, this matter has been carefully and thoroughly reviewed. Mr. Speaker, I believe that people who live in social housing in this Province will be pleased with the result. Most tenants in social housing will see a reduction in the amount of rent they will be expected to pay.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. REID: This new approach is particularly sensitive to groups such as single seniors, single parents and families with a number of children.

Mr. Speaker, I am announcing today that government has authorized the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation to reduce the amount of the planned increase by changing the household income threshold at which rental increases would have been implemented. As members are aware, a sliding scale approach was put into place whereby tenants would pay rent based upon anywhere from 25 per cent to 30 per cent of their income. This scale was designed to be sensitive to those with the lowest incomes and to families with a number of children. It was also designed so that the small number of tenants with high incomes would be encouraged to consider moving out onto the private market because they can afford to do so - and thereby make room for those with greater needs.

This sliding scale approach will be maintained because it is sensitive to those most in need. It supports families and children and it should, over time, result in the departure of those tenants who can really afford to be out on their own.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. A. REID: No, I am not, Sir.

Mr. Speaker, I point out that social housing was designed as a stepping-stone for low-income families in need of affordable housing. It can help families move out of overcrowded, substandard accommodations. It can and does contribute in a very positive way to a family's overall well-being.

It is a fact, Mr. Speaker, that people living in decent housing are healthier, have greater stability, are more productive at work, more successful in school and in society generally.

So, I say to you today, housing is a very important component of our social safety net in this Province and it is one that this government will continue to support to the greatest extent possible given our overall financial situation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. REID: I think, Mr. Speaker, most members of this House realize that as long as I am minister, it will certainly stay in effect as well.

Mr. Speaker, in raising rents for social housing tenants, we are following the lead of virtually every other jurisdiction in the country. However, the rental increase here recognizes the circumstances of low-income people in this Province and is much more lenient than anywhere else. Tenants in New Brunswick or P.E.I., as an example, pay a flat rate of 30 per cent of income and have been doing so for some time.

Now, I want to provide a few examples of the changes we are now implementing. Under the scale which was implemented starting in July, a very large grouping of single seniors - pay attention - would have experienced an average rental increase of $43 per month. Listen again; I will repeat it. Single seniors who would have an average rental increase of $43 per month, under the approach I am announcing here today, this increase will be reduced to $14 monthly. This brings the average rent for this group of single seniors to $269 a month for heated, paid accommodations.

Another example is a grouping of sixty-seven households comprising two seniors. Under the scale introduced earlier this year, this group would have paid an additional $64 per month. They will now pay an average of $35 per month, which brings their rent for heated accommodations to $389 per month, which is a reasonable amount. A grouping of seventy-six single parents with one child who would have moved to paying 26 per cent of income under the scale will now not see any increase at all.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. REID: In fact, we now have 166 single-parent families with one child, with no increases whatsoever, living in our housing.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. REID: Mr. Speaker, these rental rates are very reasonable compared to the private market. Indeed, even at 30 per cent of the income, most of those living in social housing are receiving a very considerable benefit. Rent, by the way, includes a heat and hot water subsidy. Social housing also provides a significant safety net, as tenants who work on a seasonal basis or lose their jobs are eligible to have their rents reduced while they are not working.

If I may, I want to take this opportunity to make it very clear that neither the scale I am announcing here today, nor the one which it is replacing, would cause a disincentive in any way for tenants to continue in the workplace. The design of these scales was such that they would not leave a household with less income than it would receive on social assistance. Indeed, the approach ensures that growth in the clients' disposable income is greater than the growth in rents charged.

In conclusion, housing assistance provided to those with low incomes by the Province through Newfoundland and Labrador Housing is a very important and worthwhile service, and one this government takes very seriously. The provision of suitable, affordable housing plays an essential role in providing a stable home environment for children and comfortable accommodations for our loved seniors. The approach we have used in designing a new rental scale is a solution made only, Mr. Speaker, in Newfoundland and Labrador, sensitive to the needs of low-income people, and is the most lenient program found anywhere in the country of Canada.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have to commend the working poor, the seniors, and the single parents who have sent in petitions.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. T. OSBORNE: Without those petitions, the greedy government on the other side probably would not have looked at revisiting this issue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. T. OSBORNE: Mr. Speaker, I also have to say that I, myself, am very proud, because I, along with the rest of my colleagues in the Opposition led the charge to have this issue revisited and without this, the minister never would have reduced the rates. Furthermore, before I send a note of congratulations, I am going to personally view and study what has been done here to ensure this, because my job is to serve the people I represent and I am going to ensure, Mr. Speaker, that this is fair, that there is nobody going to have the disincentive of living in housing and working.

Mr. Speaker, I will continue to work diligently on behalf of the people I represent and indeed, anybody who is interested in calling me, the whole government to task and to ensure that the greedy government on the other side does not continue to put in place measures such as they have here.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to advise the hon. members of the House of Assembly that, today I have issued a commercial caribou licence in Labrador to Uncle Sam's Butcher Shop in Goose Bay.

Mr. Speaker, I have not had a question in three weeks, I know we have a lot to say.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. K. AYLWARD: I need protection, Mr. Speaker, I need protection.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out that, until today, only the Inuit of Labrador have held a commercial licence to harvest and process caribou in Labrador and while the Opposition may not think this is worthwhile, Mr. Speaker, a lot of other people will. This new permit will not impact on the number of animals under licence to the Inuit.

Mr. Speaker, the George River caribou herd is the largest caribou herd in the world with a population of over 700,000 animals. Its range is spread over Labrador and Quebec. The combined hunt in Quebec and Labrador, Mr. Speaker, does not even come close to the numbers which are required to be harvested to sustain the herd at current levels. In fact, Mr. Speaker, if more animals are not harvested, my department predicts a decline in the size of the herd which is believed to have been a pattern in the past.

Although Quebec has had a commercial hunt for a number of years now, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has always taken a cautious approach to introducing a new commercial hunt. For the past few years we have been expanding the recreational hunt as much as possible for both resident and non-resident hunters. However, despite these efforts we need to harvest more animals. I am therefore, Mr. Speaker, very pleased to announce the approval of this experimental commercial hunt of caribou in the Western Labrador area of the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: A permit for 200 animals will be issued to this butcher shop in Labrador, which could be expanded to a total of 500 animals, depending on the success of the start-up of the operation and the marketing of the product. Mr. Speaker, our department will monitor the operation very closely and evaluate its results before considering any further expansion or other requests for commercial permits.

In the past, Mr. Speaker, the department has had a number of requests for commercial licenses, including Uncle Sam's Butcher Shop which had various levels of integration, harvesting and processing. Mr. Speaker, this operation will have a completely integrated and value-added utilization of the animals to be harvested. This involves harvesting, transportation, processing and distribution.

Mr. Speaker, this harvest will take place within the Innu land claim area. Government has consulted with the Innu Nation, who have given their full support to this trial project. The Inuit of Labrador have also been informed of this undertaking. Mr. Speaker, this initiative will lead to considerable economic activity based on a renewal natural resource of wildlife in Labrador and we are pleased that this will help start to help create more employment and income possibilities for the people of Labrador. Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Tomorrow I would expect to probably hear the same minister get up and announce that he is giving a sheep licence to Aunt Martha.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: It will probably make about as much sense as this great licence here today.

Mr. Speaker, I really expect for the bond market to soar today with this announcement. It is certainly good news for the Minister of Finance. He has been beaming because he knows that the stock rates will go up, the dollar will increase. My only problem is Uncle Sam, is that an American company or is it a Newfoundland company?

Mr. Speaker, on a more serious note, I suppose we can't be against good news. I have always been a believer myself that right here in this Province we don't have enough wild game. There are not a lot of restaurants where you can go and order a meal of caribou or a meal of moose or a meal of partridge and I think this should be done. People come to Newfoundland to experience Newfoundland tradition, experience Newfoundland food, Mr. Speaker, and this is certainly a step in that direction. The only thing I caution the minister about is - and it is obvious right now that this particular herd can certainly sustain the 200 licenses that he is about to issue. I would like to make him aware, if there ever comes a time, if we get into this and we have to reduce the number of licenses, that he look at reducing the commercial licenses prior to taking them away from the domestic license holders in Newfoundland and Labrador. Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of clarification in response to an Evening Telegram Editorial of today titled "Arming the RNC" which says, and I quote, "What is disappointing about the whole issue is the refusal of the Justice Minister to hold public hearings on the proposed changes. Clearly, the public has a right to be heard on something this important to their future safety."

The Justice Minister announced on November 28 that government has decided to re-examine the arming policy of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, in the interest of ensuring that the lives of the public and those of the RNC officers are properly protected. The minister said at that time that he, and the Chief of Police, would be speaking publicly about the arming issue over the coming weeks in an effort to raise the level of awareness on this important issue, and he also requested the Members of the House to pass along the views of their constituents on the matter.

Mr. Speaker, on December 1, just three days ago, the Justice Minister took the consultation process a step further, and announced, and I quote, "Government has decided to hold more formal consultations on this issue, and will consult with the Opposition to form a Select Committee of the House of Assembly. It is our hope that this Committee, made up of members from both sides of the House of Assembly, will begin consultations on the RNC firearms policy with affected communities early in the new year."

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that The Evening Telegram agrees with government that the public has a right to be heard on this important public policy; however, the writer of today's editorial appears to have overlooked the announcement of the Minister of Justice only three days ago about the appointment of a Select Committee of the House of Assembly to do public consultation on this matter.

In contrast to the assertion in The Evening Telegram editorial, we are quite committed to the process of consultation, and we are giving those interested in this issue a full and fair opportunity to express their views. Furthermore, I am also pleased to advise anybody who wishes to know that we moved two days ago to appoint members to the Select Committee. They are, the Member for Topsail, the Member for St. John's Centre, the Member for St. John's East, the Member for Humber East, the Member for Labrador West, and the Member for Conception Bay South.

AN HON. MEMBER: Both sides of the House.

MR. TULK: Both sides of the House.

Mr. Speaker, our staff has brought this oversight to the attention of The Evening Telegram. In conclusion, I encourage the committee to be thorough in their consultations and I look forward to hearing from them early in the new year.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am sure a response to the editorial would have served a good purpose, a Ministerial Statement here in this House. It is no wonder that we see an editorial when the Justice Minister walks out of this House and tells people there will be no public consultation, and the Premier walks out a few minutes after and says there will be. Is it any wonder that people are confused on the issue? That is the problem, I say, they have their signals crossed. They are operating in different directions, and it is no wonder we see editorials like this. I say, get your act together.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are for the Premier.

I ask the Premier: Will he confirm that Marine Atlantic has sent a proposal to the federal minister, David Collenette, regarding the relocation of Marine Atlantic Headquarters?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether they have or they have not. They have not sent us a copy of it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I guess the Premier conveniently knows what he wants to know.

I ask the Premier: Will he ensure that every job in Moncton, and those that are not absolutely necessary in North Sydney, will be relocated to this Province? And I ask the Premier: Will he fight to ensure that the jobs are located here in our Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we support that sentiment fully. In fact we, I think, unanimously passed - well, almost unanimously -a resolution in the House to that effect last week.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I understand the Premier has had some discussions with his counterpart, Premier Russell MacLellan in Nova Scotia, who we all know is facing an election this spring and who represents that particular area. I ask the Premier: Will he indicate the nature of discussions he has had, and any behind-the-scenes concessions he might have made to assist his counterpart in Nova Scotia?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is really getting desperate with these questions. The only thing he hasn't asked me is whether my uncle is my aunt. Has he met the Premier of Nova Scotia? Did he have secret discussions? Did he make secret concessions? What kind of secret concessions did he make? Was he on the rack at the time? How much punishment did he take before he caved in?

Mr. Speaker, this is an old and tired and tiresome tactic on the part of the Opposition Leader, to make a premise that meetings took place which never occurred, to make a premise that discussions took place that never occurred, to make a premise that concessions took place that never occurred, and then to ask the Premier to stand and deny it.

Mr. Speaker, when the Leader of the Opposition puts a serious question, then I will offer him a serious answer.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am half afraid to ask if his aunt is his uncle, because I am afraid the Premier wouldn't know. He usually doesn't answer.

I ask him: Will he confirm if he has had discussions with Russell MacLellan, the Premier of Nova Scotia, on this matter?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: No, Mr. Speaker. The only people I have consulted on this question are the members of this Cabinet and members of this caucus, in particular the Member for Port aux Basques who has been most persuasive and powerful in arguing for the case of the people of Port aux Basques.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER TOBIN: And I will tell the Leader of the Opposition who else I have consulted. I, and the Member for Port aux Basques, together with the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation met the council and the representatives of the people of Port aux Basques more than a week ago. We told them we would do our level best, as we have, to work for the greatest number of jobs possible for Port aux Basques.

I will tell him who else I have met with. I have met with the Chairman of Marine Atlantic and with the President of Marine Atlantic, with the Member for Burgeo & LaPoile and with the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. We told them that we want them to do everything possible to put the greatest number of jobs in Port aux Basques.

I will tell him what else we have done. We have agreed, as a government, to the extent that we can keep jobs through Works, Services and Transportation as a result of the move to the ferry service for Labrador being transferred to the Province. To the extent we can keep those jobs in Port aux Basques, we will keep them in Port aux Basques. Those are the things I have done. What has the Leader of the Opposition done?

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: I would answer that now but I would be ruled out of order, I say to the Premier. If he will give me time after Question Period, I will tell him exactly, if he would like to take the time in this House. I will update him. I started to do it this week and the Premier interrupted on two points of order.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: The Premier interrupted on two points of order and would not let me finish, I can say to him, when I was telling him what I did in this House just a few days ago.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: You ask your Minister of Health. She is on public record as saying they should be in St. John's. I will give a copy of this letter to you and to anybody who wants it, I say to the Premier, if you want a copy of it.

Now, will the Premier ensure that Marine Atlantic does not get away with having the perception of a headquarters in this Province, and have the CEO and some other people working out of a satellite office in North Sydney?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, for anybody who listens to the debate in the House - and a great many people do listen to the debate. They come to the gallery and listen. Many people listen as a consequence of the coverage on radio in the mornings. For anybody who listens, I do not have to get up and explain to the public what this is all about.

It is very clear that the Leader of the Opposition finds himself in an uncomfortable position. His House Leader, who I assume is inadvertently absent today, moved a resolution in this House without thinking it through, a week or so ago, which would have had the effect of moving all of the Marine Atlantic jobs, including the ones -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer this question, because the members opposite have split on this issue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TOBIN: Two of the members have voted against the Leader of the Opposition, and voted against the Opposition House Leader -

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, a point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Baie Verte, on a point of order.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, on a simple point of order.

The House Leader, because of commitments, is not here today. I would like for the Premier to retract his reference to that.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Premier will conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the House Leader moved a motion, had not thought through the consequence of the motion, and as a result, the Conservative caucus split. Because the Conservative party has been playing politics with this issue and, in the process of playing politics, is impacting on the lives of Marine Atlantic workers who live in St. John's.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TOBIN: Two of their members voted against the Leader of the Opposition and the House Leader.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the only Party that -

MR. SPEAKER: I ask the hon. the Premier to conclude his answer.

PREMIER TOBIN: - has a clear policy on Marine Atlantic is the Liberal Party, not the Conservative Party.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the Premier, it was his Government House Leader who wanted to have that discussed that day. The Member for Humber East said: A number of us got sandbagged. We were not even aware that you were going to have it called, basically, he said, and it is in print. I will give you a copy of that, too, what the Member for Humber East said. A number of them got sandbagged on your side of the House.

I say to the Premier, on December 15 of this year, Marine Atlantic will turn over responsibility for the northern ferry service in this Province to the Provincial Government. I ask the Premier: Which option is this government looking at? Is it looking at asking Marine Atlantic to continue to operate that service beyond this year and subsidize as you have done this year, to the tune of roughly $12 million? Does it plan to operate the ferry service itself? Or is it planning on going to public tender for that ferry service on the northern service?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition cannot have it both ways. If any member of the House was caught unawares that a motion was being moved, it is because the motion was moved and stood in the name of the Conservative Party House Leader, Mr. Hodder.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Bonavista South is making a lot of noise over there, heckling, but I just got a note that the Conservative Party of Canada in 1994 received a $1,000 contribution from the IFAW!

AN HON. MEMBER: What!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER TOBIN: Another one of –

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, he is looking like a beached seal over there, flapping around.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the Premier to take his seat.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. SHELLEY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier is supposed to be answering questions that are relevant. I do not see any relevancy to the question that was just asked in the House of Assembly.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, this is a serious matter, I say, for the people who are going to be affected by the shutdown of the northern service by Marine Atlantic. Many people will be seriously affected by it, I say to the Premier.

I am asking him to take this seriously and tell us what government is considering, if an option has been ruled out, in all fairness to these people. Is it an option that Marine Atlantic could continue? Because it would have repercussions on the employees there. Is the Provincial Government planning on getting into the operation of the ferry service directly, or looking at going to public tender on that? They are fair questions, Premier, and I think, in all fairness to the employees they need to have some direction, which they have not had.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to assure the member that early next week, the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, who has a good command and control of this entire situation and is looking to maximize opportunities throughout the Province and to maximize opportunities, as well, in Port aux Basques - in the early days of next week, he will make a full report to the House in a Ministerial Statement addressing all of the questions that have been raised by the Leader of the Opposition. But I say to the Leader of the Opposition and to the Member for Bonavista South who is looking awful fidgety in his chair, that after a week of talking about the shocking contributions to the IFAW, this startling revelation of $1,000 contribution to the Conservative Party is upsetting indeed, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: I say to the Premier, if he has the proof -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South, on the point of order.

MR. FITZGERALD: If he has the proof there of that donation, I suggest he table it, as I did yesterday. Further, I say to the Premier, I was no part of that party in 1994, but you, Premier, were a minister of that Cabinet. You, Premier, had the inside line to all donations and you were a party, Premier, to the donation in 1994.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Premier, on a point of order.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing more uncomfortable-looking than a goose that has been plucked and cooked attempting to speak in the House of Assembly.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, this is a classic case -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I assume a question has been put. This is a classic case -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, on a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister need not talk, when his own minister asked the federal transportation minister to give consideration to relocating Marine Atlantic's head office from Moncton to St. John's - a member of your very Cabinet, Premier.

I want to get back to the issue here because the Premier is trying to side track us. There are workers working with Marine Atlantic today who are in a very difficult situation. They have not received the compensation package that people receive on the Straits crossing, on the Bay of Fundy or the Bar Harbor run from Yarmouth and now, on December 31 of this year, they will be unemployed with Marine Atlantic.

Some of these people, Premier, have an option to relocate or to bump within the system, and I know he made reference to it so I ask him: will he ensure that when that announcement answers the question next week, will he also have an answer for the people who are depending on this to make decisions on relocating from Lewisporte today to some other parts of North Sydney, Port aux Basques wherever it may be, that they will know so they can get the information that they can make a decision before they become unemployed?

They have thirty days I do believe to exercise that particular right, that they are not left dangling with families. And government has failed to move on this issue. Will you let the people know in sufficient time that they can exercise the options they have available to them under their basic agreements?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is, that the Minster of Works, Services and Transportation has met this morning for example, with an employee group here in the City of St. John's and the fact of the matter is, it is time for members in this House, all members in this House, to deal with this matter on the basis of fact and to avoid the political games-playing that has gone on, because I say to the Leader of the Opposition there are employees of Marine Atlantic, long-serving employees of Marine Atlantic who live in the City of St. John's, who quite frankly are concerned, arising out of the resolution put by the Conservative Party last week in the House of Assembly and the way in which it was put.

There are members of Marine Atlantic living in Port aux Basques who want to know what their futures are going to be and, Mr. Speaker, what we need -

MR. SULLIVAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, on a point of order.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The resolution submitted by the Member for Waterford Valley is straightforward and clear. There was no concern with the resolution submitted by the Member for Waterford Valley. I want to make that correction so the Premier will (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I say again and, Mr. Speaker, there is no point carrying on with this debate; this does not serve anybody. This does not serve anybody affected; these are families, these are individuals with homes; these are individuals with mortgages who live in St. John's, who live in Port aux Basques, who want the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and the Opposition of Newfoundland and Labrador to work for the best interest of the Province, to put the greatest number of jobs in Newfoundland and Labrador and to follow a policy of locating the greatest number of those jobs coming from New Brunswick, Mr. Speaker, and the headquarters of the operation in the Town of Port aux Basques. That is what we should be trying to do, work for Newfoundland and Labrador not causing division within the Province and not playing games; and I ask the Leader of the Opposition to take it as given, that we have met the employee group here; we have met the council in Port aux Basques, we are working for Newfoundland and Labrador, let us stop this partisanship on this important issue in this Assembly.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

No, we are not a bit interested in playing political games on this, I say to the Premier, not one bit, and I certainly endorse and I ask the Premier to work in their best interest, the federal member for the West Coast and the Member for Humber East with the statements - I will not waste time on that here but I ask you to work in the best interest of all the employees at Marine Atlantic who are serving in this Province whether they are in St. John's or Port aux Basques, wherever they are, I think somebody should look at the human side of this aspect and I ask the Premier to do that and to make representation to his federal colleagues who have the power to do something about it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Leader of the Opposition for that question and for that representation. I think that is helpful; I think it is constructive and I want to assure him that is exactly what the government is doing. I think we all recognize that when we are dealing with these employees, long-standing employees, these are families, and you cannot take lightly their circumstances; we all recognize that. Our job in this place is to see that Newfoundland and Labrador as it should, because the service is designed for Newfoundland and Labrador, gets the greatest number of these jobs. I think we all recognize there are going to be jobs in North Sydney. There is a service that exists there as well, but we all recognize that the point of entry and the Terms of Union in Newfoundland and Labrador and the service, the main point of service of Marine Atlantic in Newfoundland and Labrador is Port aux Basques.

If we can recognize that, then we can all work together to see that Port aux Basques is made the headquarters for Marine Atlantic in Newfoundland and Labrador and at the same time, the employees who work elsewhere - and there are some long-standing employees in St. John's - are not unnecessarily treated or displaced, but rather, are treated with respect and integrity and if we stop the partisanship -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER TOBIN: - and I think we have stopped today, Mr. Speaker, I think we will make progress for our Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions, I guess, are for the Minister of Mines and Energy, in the absence of the Minister of Justice.

Two years ago we debated in this House the notion of an increase for electricity rates in the Province. At that time, the Public Utilities Board set a rate of return for the utility, and a rate for electricity for consumers for the years 1996 and 1997. To date there has been no rate set for the year 1998. Can the minister explain why that has not taken place?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. FUREY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, this is an issue on which I met with the Consumer Advocate I think two or three days ago. Mr. Browne was in and chatted with me about this. You are quite right; the Public Utilities Board is under the auspices of the Minister of Justice, and I intend to raise that with him at the earliest opportunity.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride, a supplementary.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, if the Minister of Mines and Energy has met with the Consumer Advocate then he would be aware of this fact: That the Canadian bond rate, which has declined from 8 per cent to 6 per cent, is the single biggest factor that the Public Utilities Board takes into account when determining electricity rates. As a result of that decline, I say to the minister, Newfoundland Power, for the last year, have enjoyed excess profits beyond which the Public Utilities Board ordered, which is 11 per cent, and that if we do not set a rate of return for 1998, Newfoundland Power, as a corporation, is poised to make an additional $8 million on the backs of consumers.

The question then for the minister is this: Will he move, on behalf of government today, to instruct the Public Utilities Board, which is governed by an act of this Legislature, to ensure that the rate of return that was established at 11 per cent is maximized, and that excess profits made by the corporation above and beyond what the Public Utilities Board has prescribed, is returned to the consumer?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is partially right. When the ruling came down, the base rate is a thirty-year long-term yield, like a Canadian Bond, which it is measured against, and at that time it was 8 per cent. It was after that ruling, setting the two years in motion, that the Canadian bond rate dropped to 7 per cent, and just recently to 6 per cent. Now, this particular ruling ends at the end of this year. Then, of course, we go into a new time frame.

What has happened in the past is that whenever a corporation such as Newfoundland Power has not gone for a new hearing, subsequent years and previous years' rates kick in; but to ask me to go to the Public Utilities Board, an arm's-length corporation, and to direct them to do something, I think, would be inappropriate. It would be the same as asking me to go and tell them to set the rates and fix the rates at a certain level.

What I will do is take it up with the Minister of Justice. I think that the hon. member has raised some very good points. He is not alone. The Consumer Advocate has come and spoken with me about this. It is something that I am concerned about, and when I have had discussions with the Minister of Justice I will make a decision.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride, a supplementary.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, it is appropriate to pass on taxes on used cars, but it is not appropriate for the minister to intervene with the Public Utilities Board to ensure that the consumers get the rate that they deserve.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Is the minister aware -

AN HON. MEMBER: You do not know what you are talking about.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: The Member for Kilbride does know what he is talking about, I say to the government member. I do know what I am talking about.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: No, I have not.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: If you would like to answer the question when I get around to asking you one, I will ask you one and you can stand up and answer it, when I ask you a question. Right now I am dealing with the Minister of Energy. If you want me to deal with you, I will in due course.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Let me say to the Minister of Mines and Energy that this member is not partially right. This member is 100 per cent right, because every 1 per cent -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Every 1 per cent decrease -

AN HON. MEMBER: Represents $4 million.

MR. E. BYRNE: Absolutely, represents $4 million. There has been a 2 per cent decrease in the Canadian bond rate. As an example - I am talking about for 1998 now, Minister. Forget the past year. We are talking about for January 1, 1998, and the excess profits that could be made. As a result of this decrease - just to use one tangible example - as a result of inaction, if the rate remains the same, the City of St. John's could save if it was adjusted to where it should be. If the power of the utility is enacted in terms of their decision -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary, I ask him to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: - is the minister aware that the City of St. John's could save in excess of $70,000 on their budget alone?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, as I said, the hon. member has raised some good points. I think we have to be very careful with arm's-length boards that operate in a quasi-judicial manner. It would be totally inappropriate, I think, for a minister to intervene into the workings of that board and direct them to do certain things. That is why it is set up, it is arm's-length. It has to function independent of government, Mr. Speaker. But I will say this: the hon. member has raised a couple of good points, there is no doubt about it, and some of his information is accurate. I have met with -

AN HON. MEMBER: Some?

MR. FUREY: Well, some of it is accurate. It is not quite presented fully accurately.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the minister to get to his answer.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, most of the information is accurate, but what I will do is, when I have discussed this with the Minister of Justice, who is responsible for the legislation to the Public Utilities Act, I also will reconvene a meeting with the Consumer Advocate. Maybe that is an avenue we can look at to ensure that there is proper fairness and balance for the consumers.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I understand and agree that arm's-length boards are put in place for a reason and that, to the greatest extent possible, they should operate, but extenuating circumstances do exist where government has the power to act. Now, if the minister is saying that the government does not have the power to act, Mr. Speaker, directly, then it surely has the power to act indirectly. So let me ask the minister - he just referred to it: Will he make a commitment today that he contact the Consumer Advocate immediately, that a hearing be proposed as soon as possible and that a reasonable and just rate of electricity be put in place so that consumers of power, both industrial and residential -

PREMIER TOBIN: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: I did not admit it Premier, I said that I understand the relationship exists in terms of an arm's-length board. I said that if we cannot act directly -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get on with his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: - we do have the power to act indirectly. Will he contact the Consumer Advocate and do whatever is in his power to ensure that a hearing takes place, so that industrial and residential consumers of the Province pay the rate of return that the Public Utilities Board has prescribed to be paid, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I am not interested in Newfoundland Power getting any more profit than the Public Utilities Board has outlined in that Public Utility Submission No. 7. What I said in my last statement, in answer to the hon. member's question was, in fairness, I should talk to the Minister of Justice - the Act comes under the Minister of Justice - and I have agreed to do that.

Secondly, I will meet with the Consumer Advocate. I have met with him before. He has briefed me on it. He has told me that the hon. member was going to be briefed on it. I am glad he raised it in public. He has raised some very good points. I will meet with the Consumer Advocate and if required - you know that he is busy doing some studies with respect to the differentiation of prices for gasoline around the Province; I hope that study will be completed before Christmas. But if his time is freed up, I will gladly ask him to look at this in the context of looking after the consumer of this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: One final question, Mr. Speaker, just so the minister is aware - maybe he is, maybe he is not. Will he make a commitment, too, to sit down with the Public Utilities Board? Because within the Public Utility Board's mandate, that they review - will you make a commitment, on behalf of government, to meet with the Public Utilities Board to discuss the issue? On behalf of government, not you personally. Whether it is the Minister of Justice or somebody else, both - the Minister of Mines and Energy, certainly, or the Premier, could write a letter expressing concerns, could he not - at the very least? I have certainly written to the Public Utilities Board and expressed my concerns. I cannot see why the Premier cannot write a letter and express his concerns on the issue - or the Minister of Mines and Energy. But within their mandate they have the ability to review customer service issues on a yearly basis.

All I am asking, Mr. Speaker, is that the minister, or somebody from government, acknowledge that a problem exists, write the Public Utilities Board, express their views on it, express their views on behalf of government, to see what action can be taken - a very simple request, I say to the minister.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for his questions. I think all of us in the House, as the member has pointed out, want to ensure that Newfoundland Light and Power has no greater a rate of return than is prescribed under the policy directives of the Public Utilities Board. We all agree to that. None of us want to see the consumers of Newfoundland and Labrador pay more than they ought to pay and that is reasonable.

Mr. Speaker, notwithstanding the, I think, good intentions of the member who has just spoken, it is inappropriate, and I think he has acknowledged that in his questions, for the Minister of Mines and Energy or for any minister of the government, to give a direction to a quasi-judicial body and under the structure of the legislation in place, the quasi-judicial body would reject such an instruction, if it were so given.

Now, Mr. Speaker, there is an appropriate office that has been established by this government, it is the office of the Consumer Advocate. I think everybody in this Province recognizes, and the House has recognized, the tremendous job that Mr. Dennis Brown has done in the past and the tremendous service he has given to the consumers of the Province in the past. The Minister of Mines and Energy has just said he will meet the Consumer Advocate. The Consumer Advocate is busy now on another consumer issue, which is gas prices. We expect to have his report shortly. But I am sure the Consumer Advocate, who has demonstrated a superior capacity to deal with this issue and to argue forcefully on behalf of the consumers, will be glad to take up this issue. I would ask the member to accept that that is the appropriate way to proceed at this time.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, let me be clear on what I asked the Premier. I did not ask the Premier or the Minister of Mines and Energy to intercede or to give direction to the Public Utilities Board. What I did ask you, Premier, was that, in your capacity as Premier, could you write - as a private member in this House or the Minister of Mines and Energy - write, as I have, to the Public Utilities Board expressing my concerns surrounding the issue. That is not giving direction, that is - as a private member in this House we all have those rights.

Now, I will acknowledge, Mr. Speaker - because the Premier has asked me a question and I would just like to acknowledge that.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: I agree that the appropriate approach is for the Consumer Advocate to proceed and that is what I said earlier in that, while government may not have the power to act directly, it certainly has the power to act indirectly. So, I am urging the government to appoint the Consumer Advocate on this issue quickly to ensure that a hearing can take place at the earliest possible date within the power of government, so that this, I guess, gouge of consumers, can be corrected for next year's rate.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to say to the hon. gentleman that if I have misunderstood him, and if, indeed, all members on this side have misunderstood him, perhaps Hansard will correct the record; but a little earlier in Question Period the member was asking - and I think the record of Hansard will show it, there is a tape - asking very clearly for the minister to intervene directly, suggested that government could intervene directly with a quasi-judicial body. Now, he may have misspoken himself and I will accept that that is the case. Mr. Speaker, he has now acknowledged that is not appropriate, that the appropriate office is the Consumer Advocate; and, Mr. Speaker, I tell him we do not need to name one, we already have one, and indeed, we will be happy to refer this matter to the Consumer Advocate for the action that he deems appropriate.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member has time for one quick supplementary.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Let us be clear, if the Premier wants to review Hansard, no problem. If the Premier wants to review Hansard he will also see that a question posed to that said: I understand the role of arm's-length agencies, and while government cannot act directly or intercede, they may be able to act indirectly. So, I think we are saying the same thing.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to get to his question quickly.

MR. E. BYRNE: A quick question: Do I understand the Premier correctly, that he has made a commitment, that the Consumer Advocate who is in place will review this issue on behalf of government to ensure that consumers of power, both industrial and residential, will get a fair rate for electricity? Is that what the Premier is committed to today?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to say to the member that everybody in the House understands that is exactly what the minister said ten minutes ago, and I am glad now to understand that the member who has put these questions - and I congratulate him for putting the questions - understands it is inappropriate for any minister to attempt to give any direction to a quasi-judicial body. And I know that his colleague, Mr. Ottenheimer, would be glad to discuss that matter further with him after Question Period.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has ended.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I again today rise in my place to present a petition on behalf of a number of individuals, concerning the proposed tax rate on used vehicles, that is being proposed by the government on the book value. Mr. Speaker, there is no need to read all the `whereases', I will just read: Wherefore be it resolved your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador not to proceed with the legislation that would tax the sale of used vehicles based on the book value.

This is an issue, Mr. Speaker, that seems to be catching on in the public recently. I asked the minister a number of questions in the House of Assembly with respect to this. The last question I asked him was, would he consider looking at a two-affidavit system if necessary, whereby the purchaser and the seller will sign the affidavit, and he said he would. I am just wondering how long it is going to take the minister to make the changes or to announce exactly what the proposed tax would be, whether or not there would be a tax, or if he would throw it out the window.

I think it is a very unfair, unjust, and morally wrong system whereby people would have to pay a tax on money they did not spend. I have given an example in the media, where if a person were going to purchase from an individual a car valued at $6,000, and he knocked down the seller to $4,000, he would have to pay $300 on money he did not spend. That is wrong. The minister can rationalize it all he wants, but he cannot justify it in the minds of the people of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. It has also been said that this tax system is happening in other Province, but that does not necessarily make it right that people in this Province would have to pay a tax on used vehicles on money they did not spend.

The minister referred to the book value. He tabled in this House a report that was done from January 1, 1996, to March 31, 1996, that looked at some 200 vehicles. What it did not look at was the condition of the vehicle - the assessed value, the mileage, the general condition of the vehicle. Just to look at one aspect of this proposed tax increase, and one aspect of why they should bring it in, and generally say that the people of the Province are dishonest and that they are ripping off the government big time... How many cars in this Province are sold for above the book value?

Also, according to what is being proposed, this tax will not apply to car dealerships. If I buy a car from an individual for $4,000 -if I go to a car dealership and buy the same car for the same amount of money, I will not have to pay that tax, but if I go to a private individual, then I would have to pay the tax. I do not think that is right. I think the people of the Province are becoming more concerned as time goes on, as they learn more about this proposed unfair, unjust, morally wrong tax.

I think the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board is finally looking at it from our perspective - from my perspective, when I brought it up in the House of Assembly. I think, in due course, we will see - hopefully... I have to give credit where credit is due. If the minister does decide to back off on this tax and bring in a more reasonable, fair tax, I will give him credit and anybody else in the House of Assembly who has anything to do with changing this proposed tax. I can only say that I will give credit where credit is due if another member in the House decides to support me and talk to the minister.

On the Open Line shows, Mr. Speaker, I suggested to the people of the Province that they phone their MHAs and put some pressure on their MHAs and I know that the members on that side of the House are getting calls every day on this issue, there is no doubt about that, Mr. Speaker. Members on the government side of the House, and ministers are getting calls; the backbenchers are getting calls on this issue. I can only encourage them to talk to the Minister of Finance, talk to the Premier, and make sure that we beat some sense into their heads and get this proposed tax dumped.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to support the petition put forward by the Member for Cape St. Francis regarding the intention of the Minister of Finance to use the red book. When we, over here on this side, hear of the Red Book, all kinds of flags go up, because we know what misinformation - and how the people in this Province were duped by a Red Book one time before.

PREMIER TOBIN: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: We are aware, Mr. Speaker - and I say to the Premier, I will tell them about the IFAW if he wants to. I gave the Premier my proof of the political donations to his Party; now I call on the Premier to provide this member with the proof that he has, that a Party of which I was not a part, and of which he accuses me, accepted a donation from this unscrupulous group of individuals that is trying to destroy a way of life here in this Province; and whether it was done by a federal party of which I am a part, or whether it was done by a federal party of which the Premier is a part, it is wrong. It is morally wrong, Mr. Speaker, and it should never have happened - and I have no problem with that. The money should be given back, and I agree with the Premier on that particular issue.

PREMIER TOBIN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier, on a point of order.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, let the record show that for the first time since I have been a member of this place, the Member for Bonavista South agrees with the Premier.

Mr. Speaker, I know that under the rule of relevancy, we are restrained slightly, and with your indulgence, I want to say to the hon. member: Those who live in glass houses should not be throwing stones.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South, on the petition.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, it is easy to see why this member agrees with the Premier for the first time. It is the first time the Premier was right. If he gets up often enough he is bound to be right. But I ask the Premier if he would make a commitment -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is now on a petition and I remind him to stick to the petition.

MR. FITZGERALD: I ask the Premier if he would make a commitment to contact his cousins in Ottawa, to return the $20,000 donation that was contributed to his Party.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: If it were done by a Party which I was never part of, then I will make the commitment as well.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period is over and I ask the hon. member to stick to the petition.

PREMIER TOBIN: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier, on a point of order.

PREMIER TOBIN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, and all I ask is for equal time. I have been in touch today with the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans for Canada saying that they ought to send back this contribution from the IFAW and the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, David Anderson, has agreed. Now, I ask the member: What are you doing to be in touch with your Party about the shocking contribution which has been revealed today?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. member that he is now on a petition and his remarks should be confined to the matters dealing with the petition.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know why the Premier got in touch with the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, because he knows nothing about it, according to the Premier. The office knew nothing about political donations. I am surprised he did not call the Minister of Finance or his friend -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I was never a minister, I say to -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: In fact, I only visited Ottawa a couple of times. I was never a minister.

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Premier came over here and challenged me to a duel.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: I told him to set up the ring and I would be there. We would charge admission.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to take his seat.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, getting back to -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. member that he is on a petition and he should get to the matters dealing with the petition.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Before I was so rudely interrupted by members opposite, I was speaking on a petition and I was referring to a Red Book that the Minister of Finance keeps waving here and saying: Here is the book that we are going to use as a reference.

I say to people opposite, and I say to the Premier, the people of this Province have already been duped once by a Red Book, and they do not trust it anymore.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, the unfortunate part of this piece of proposed - I suppose - legislation, or the thoughts that are being entertained by the Minister of Finance, is that we are going to be charging a group of people out there today, taxes on money which is not being spent. We are going to once again hit the poorest of the poor, the people living in this Province who cannot afford to go out and buy a new car.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: By leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave.

MR. SPEAKER: No leave.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the Minister of Education, it is certainly -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, before calling Orders of the Day, I move that this House not adjourn at 5:00 p.m.

Motion, that the House not adjourn at 5:00 p.m., carried.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I call Order No. 11, Bill No. 40, "An Act To Amend The Intergovernmental Affairs Act". I do not know whether the Premier wants to introduce this bill or whether he wants me to introduce it.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Intergovernmental Affairs Act". (Bill No. 40).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, what this bill, in effect, does is - I understand, under the present statute, the Premier is basically compelled to appoint himself or herself as the Intergovernmental Affairs Minister.

I can say to the hon. gentlemen opposite, having seen a valuable piece of information today that they should all see, that in this particular case, this Premier, according to a release that is about to occur on numbers, on popularity numbers of certain people in this Province -

MR. MERCER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: No, I say to the Member for Humber East, I am not going to give him the paper, but I think at 2:30 today the Province started to learn that what I am about to say is going to be true, that this Premier - if he chooses to remain Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, and regardless of whether the legislation changes or not, this Premier will remain Premier of this Province for a long, long time to come.

Mr. Speaker, there are some figures about to be released –

PREMIER TOBIN: Now, `Beaton', behave yourself.

MR. TULK: You do not want me to tell them?

PREMIER TOBIN: No.

MR. TULK: There are some figures -

PREMIER TOBIN: We do not comment on polls.

MR. TULK: We do not comment on polls, but there are some figures, I say to the hon. gentlemen opposite, that are going to be released shortly, if they have not already been released -

PREMIER TOBIN: We do not comment on polls.

MR. TULK: But have they been released?

PREMIER TOBIN: We do not comment on polls.

MR. TULK: There are some figures that are about to be released that are going to throw their houses over there in complete disarray. They are going to see a slide -

PREMIER TOBIN: No, we do not comment on polls.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: The next thing I know, I may end up as Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

Mr. Speaker, I have to say to the hon. gentlemen that they should -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: I might, before the afternoon... Am I allowed to supply them with a copy?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: No, I do not expect you to answer that.

PREMIER TOBIN: We do not comment on polls -

MR. TULK: We do not comment on polls, okay.

Mr. Speaker, in essence what this legislation does -

PREMIER TOBIN: - whether they are bad or good - especially if they are bad.

MS S. OSBORNE: Call an election.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: I tell the hon. lady from St. John's West, she is lucky that this gentleman here is the Premier and not me! Because from what I saw today - election?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: There would not be one left over there, not one.

AN HON. MEMBER: If we have an election, she will have the same member but I will not.

MR. TULK: That is right. Exactly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER TOBIN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier, on a point of order.

PREMIER TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to assure members on all sides of the House there will be no election anytime soon. We have work to do over the next couple of years. And, Mr. Speaker, we do not comment on polls.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

I want to remind the hon. the Government House Leader that he is now into second reading of a bill, and that comments and remarks at this stage of the debate should be relevant to the principles of the bill.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the principle of this bill - and I thank Your Honour for his ruling - is about the right of the Premier to appoint either himself or herself as the Intergovernmental Affairs minister. Today, in the legislation, this Premier is forced to appoint himself, according to the legislation on the books, as the Intergovernmental Affairs minister. He wants to open that up, being the democratic kind of person that he is.

I say that I think it is very relevant that this Premier will be appointing himself, if he wants to, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. If he called an election today, I think he would have to appoint somebody to be Opposition.

Having made those few remarks, and having said that the Premier wishes to change that, since he has the power to do it anyway - whoever the Premier is, he/she has the power to either appoint themselves Intergovernmental Affairs minister or someone else.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) precedents in the past where that has happened.

MR. TULK: To be frank with you, I do not see the purpose of the legislation. I would like to tell you about the legislation. We do not need it. We just need to change it to take it off the books so that he can appoint anybody as Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs - that is the principle of the bill, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Government House Leader has not given us an account of the specifics there.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: No, on Bill 40 that is being debated. I understand, under the bill right now, the Premier is required to be the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. This will give him an avenue now, I guess, where the Premier will no longer have to be, so he will not have to step on any federal toes over the next couple of years, I would say, as he tries to assume a higher office. That is what this bill is all about, I say to the Government House Leader. That is what I see this bill is about. He will not have to step on the people he is going to turn around and ask for support in the next year or two as he seeks to be Prime Minister of the country. Not happy in this little old Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, he wants to pass it aside.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SULLIVAN: Some of the things in the bill here, some of the aspects of the bill we are going to deal with. Yes, there are aspects in the bill, there are lots of things in the bill, I say to him. There are aspects here dealing with the Federal Government on agreements for our Province, I say. Transportation initiatives, land claims, you name any particular things. The Premier wants to stay away from all these little dicey items now and hand them off to somebody else and take all the hits.

Like the poor education minister who wanted to be Premier. He was getting his troops ready and the Minister of Mines and Energy said: No, there is a big train coming down the track at you, `Roger', step off the track. Stay off the track, `Roger', you will get your turn in a little while. I mean, he is only here for a little while - he wanted to get back here, and then he will go back at the big job when Jean Chrétien's time comes to an end. He will get back up there and go for the job again. You will get your chance, `Roger'.

Things have changed. Education - `Roger' crossed the Rubicon, as I said before. He made his decision: Premier, I will take all the hits you need on education, give it to me and I will do the job. I am not going to be around after the next election and I say to the Government House Leader, they predicted the last time we were going to be wiped out, not going to be one Tory left in the Province, and I said to him at the time, come up in Ferryland district and it will be close to seventy per cent, that is what the polls are telling me up there on day one and on day five, the only difference was that the undecided went down from twenty to five over the course of the campaign and the per cent was exactly the same. The colleagues around here, they are all here, they are all survivors, the people you see here, I can tell you.

MR. FITZGERALD: The bi-election -

MR. SULLIVAN: The benches will start to swell. The bi-election in a Liberal stronghold - seventy per cent of the vote, and we had a member go in there and swept it in fine fashion, in a bi-election and we are just wondering where the next bi-elections are going to be. There are ministers -

MR. FITZGERALD: Tell them about Rex Gibbons.

MR. SULLIVAN: There are people who want to give it up and retire. They get bigger pensions than they would by being in here, but they cannot go. They are not allowed to retire in dignity. They have to suffer it out here now. They are afraid of another bi-election, the Premier is. He does not want to see the opposition numbers swell over here because the only real ones that count are the ones in the ballet box, I say to the Premier, like we had in St. John's West and like we will see in other bi-elections I am sure, as the time comes. The Government House Leader -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: - thinks he is going to wipe us out. We are pretty resilient. I do not want to see any more quick ones. I have gone through four now, I say, in five years, that's enough for a while. We do not want to face any others. I am sure the Premier is eager to get that second one in, I know that, but still he is not going to get it in before the federal job comes open, I say to the Premier. That federal job is going to come up before he becomes eligible. Before he gets his magic number in, there is going to be a call from up above and he has to make his decision. He has to decide what he is going to do. I am sure -

PREMIER TOBIN: (Inaudible) any other job.

MR. SULLIVAN: Don't be so foolish, I say to the Premier. Why would you want to get rid - I asked him –

MR. FITZGERALD: He is skating on the (inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Why can the Premier skate? He skates well on issues, I can tell you. I hope he skates as well on ice as he does on those issues.

MR. FITZGERALD: He is good at stick handling.

MR. SULLIVAN: We have all of those changes - constitution, we have energy coming up. He is going to concede to give the energy of Lower Churchill away, (inaudible) for the federal government to come on stream. He does not want to do anything with any dicey issues here. He will pass that off to his intergovernmental affairs minister.

Who Premier is going to take on the job of intergovernmental affairs? Who does he have earmarked for that?

AN HON. MEMBER: Chuck.

MR. SULLIVAN: I would say Chuck. His travelling has been curtailed somewhat and he is really starting to miss the jet edge now. He got use to jetlag, he needs to get back into the jetlag edge again, I say to the Minister of Mines and Energy. Yes, I said the Minister of Mines and Energy is suffering withdrawal symptoms from jetlag and now he wants to get nursed back into intergovernmental affairs, so the Premier -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: - I do not have to take any pills for my health, I never took one in my life, I say to the Premier, any kind of one. I am healthy.

AN HON. MEMBER: Not even an aspirin.

MR. SULLIVAN: No - yes, I took two in my life, two aspirins. That is about it, seriously and I am not joking. I am not sure if I was ever on medication in my life. I probable might have been.

AN HON. MEMBER: Loyola, you have never taken a pill in your life –

MR. SULLIVAN: I might have taken two or three. I do not recall having prescriptions. I might have had one prescription. Aspirins, I do not take aspirins.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: I do not live in Calvert. I live in Fermeuse, but they do feed me in Calvert when I go back there I can tell you.

So, the Premier wants the Member for St. Barbe, the Minister of Mines and Energy to take on this new post. The new minister of intergovernmental affairs, is he going to run again? There might be some bad news in those negotiations with the federal government he might have to take. I am sure if there is good news in it, the Premier will step in.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: No, the new intergovernmental affairs - oh, my heavens, if he is ever the new Premier, we have a lot of problems.

MR. J. BYRNE: Bad enough now.

MR. SULLIVAN: Somebody is pointing at the Government House Leader. Did anyone ever see a bull in a china shop? Did anyone ever see that? That is the Government House Leader.

MR. FITZGERALD: He has changed.

MR. SULLIVAN: Oh, he has changed.

I remember when he sat way back up there and the former Premier would not let him down near him. He had to suffer in exile, not only the exile of being put out in the wilderness by the former Premier but he was even exiled by a member of our side of the House for four years. Then to get back in the House again and his own Premier exiled him and made him suffer the agony of being back in the back benches again. He got a little uneasy at times.

MR. FITZGERALD: He sat sideways for three years.

MR. SULLIVAN: Supporting the bill? How can I support an attempt by the Premier to take away responsibilities as the first minister of this Province, he should have a right and should have a responsibility to deal with the federal government, his bosom buddies, his cousins, on particular issues. In an issue today, I said to the Premier, I think the Premier should be the right person in the Province to deal with the federal government. Particular issues are important, we talked about one today with Marine Atlantic. I strongly say to him, speak with your former colleague and your member in the federal government on issues here pertaining to our Province. You can't just pick and choose the issues you want, to represent our Province when it is good. As my colleague from Bonavista South said, `you can't sing with the angels and sleep with the devil.' In other words, you can't just pick the issues that are good and are going to help your cause and pass the others off. You have to deal fair and square, you have to deal with the issues as they come, that is important.

The Premier is good at deflecting things. He does not want to step on any toes. He is going to be looking for his federal counterparts support and that is the nature of this bill. That is the purpose of this bill here, so the Premier does not upset anybody in Ottawa. He always plays to the Ottawa agenda. The national agenda. He is not interested here in this Province. If it is a unity issue, up and down. If it is out-migration, you don't hear from him. If it is rural Newfoundland, the enhancement of rural Newfoundland, you don't hear from him. You rarely hear anything except when there is a little bit of good news, he will try to (inaudible) that and avoid the ninety-nine things that are not good.

So that's what he is trying to do. He is trying to deflect responsibility as Premier of this Province and carry on responsibilities for the people here. That is some of the things he is trying to accomplish here. Some of the things that people are starting to see through. They see that he has to go up to his federal minister, David Collenette, and he has to go up to David Anderson, he has all these people to look for their support. The last thing he wants to do is walk on the toes of any of these people. He wants to soft pedal it for the next little while, hoping that it won't come too quick because if it comes too quick his former colleague, Paul Martin, has the upper hand. He would like to prolong it a little bit around there. As Paul Martin gets closer and age is there, he figures he might have a chance at the national scene.

I attended a parliamentary conference in Quebec back in September and yes, there was some checking around and checking out the landscape on the federal scene by people on this issue.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: You should be listening. Read it in Hansard tomorrow.

There are little movements afoot; the Premier is getting his little nest ready on the national scene. People are touching bases with some people up there. Ask some of the Liberal members across Canada. I had a chance to rub shoulders at a parliamentary conference there. The feelers are out. It has started already. He's hardly back to this Province here and he wants to leave. Now he wants, in a bill here, to throw attention, he served us well. Isn't the bill serving us well? What's wrong? Does the Premier figure he is incapable of dealing with the responsibilities? No, the time has come and the crunch is coming. It is too close to the federal leadership for the Premier to want to have the responsibility of intergovernmental affairs. He wants to give it to somebody else because how can you, on one hand, like my colleague from Bonavista South said, how on one hand can you take $10,000 from the IFAW and then stand up when he is popular in front of everybody who is in favour and preach a different tune? How can you condemn the federal government, go after them for concessions and turn around and look for the support of the same people in another year or two time? How can you do it? That is the nature of this. The Premier wants to stay out of the scene here and that is part of his agenda. I can tell you it is not a provincial agenda the Premier has at all. It is strictly a national agenda.

These are some of the things in this bill that the Premier is trying to do. He is trying to ensure that he doesn't rub anybody the wrong way, doesn't step on any toes in the process. He is trying to make sure of that, I can tell you. I'm sure my colleagues are very much aware of that. It is not a bill to say it is something we don't need, that isn't the purpose at all. They might hide that.

The Government House Leader didn't get up and give us analyses and notes basically on what the intent behind this bill is. Not at all. How many bought what he said? He didn't tell us anything. Normally when you get up to introduce a bill you give the clauses of the bill, you tell the role of each clause, and what the changes are, and why they should be made. We didn't hear any of that stuff because they don't want any of those things to come out. That is basically the problem, I say to the Government House Leader.

I'm sure some of my other colleagues are waiting to have a few comments on this bill here. I'm sure they have some particular words of wisdom they want to put forth to the Government House Leader. With that, Mr. Speaker, I conclude my comments on Bill 40.

MR. SPEAKER (Oldford): If the hon. the Premier speaks now he will close the debate.

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER TOBIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to speak briefly on Bill 40 because the bill in question is a rather straightforward bill that doesn't do any of the things that have just been suggested by the Leader of the Opposition. Rather, it is simply a bill which places the Intergovernmental Affairs portfolio, gives it exactly the same status as every other ministry within the government.

There happens to be a requirement, an act, as part of the Intergovernmental Affairs Act currently on the books which has a stipulation establishing the department of Intergovernmental Affairs that the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs will always be the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador. That reflects the view of a previous office holder in the premier's office, and indeed for the moment I am the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. It may well be I will carry on being Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs as long as I am here.

I think what is important, and this is the principle that is important, is that all of these portfolios ought to be part of the menu before the premier of the Province, whoever the premier happens to be, whoever she or he may be at any given point in time, to make a decision as to where the talents that are available can best match the jobs that are required to be done.

The only purpose of the government in putting forward this bill is to put the ministry or the department of Intergovernmental Affairs on exactly the same basis as every other department. For the moment I've taken, I should say, no decision to not carry on as Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. I may well carry on in this portfolio in addition to my job as Premier for some time to come. By definition, a premier of the Province is always involved in any case in matters of relationships between the provincial government and the federal government, amongst the provinces. That is natural.

There are a great many items today that require time and attention. As long as I'm able to give them my full time and attention in terms of Intergovernmental Affairs, I will carry on. If at some point it requires somebody else to take a hand in the administration of that department, I will make that judgement. What is important is that the interest of Newfoundland and Labrador be fully served.

The Leader of the Opposition practically made a nominating speech for me for another job some other time, some other place. Mr. Speaker, lest there be any doubt about it whatsoever, let me say it clearly: I intend to, if the members of my Party will have me, will carry on with me, shoulder to shoulder, I intend to lead the Liberal Party clearly in the next election campaign in this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Member for Cape St. Francis, are you speaking on a point of order?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: No, the indication was that the Premier was speaking to close debate.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis, on a point of order.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, to the Premier's last statement, all I have to say to that is this. There is an old statement with respect to the people in this Province who replied to them in the last election: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me, and they will know in the next election, they will not give it to you twice.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Intergovernmental Affairs Act", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 40).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I call Bill 6, Order No. 15.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act", (Bill No. 6).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I wish in many ways that the Minister of Finance were here to read out this -

AN HON. MEMBER: He is just outside the door.

MR. TULK: Is he just outside?

Mr. Speaker, wait a minute, I would like to get him in because I do not want to have to run through this good news again and the bad news over there.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: We are going to talk about this bill, it is another good Liberal measure that we are undertaking here.

The Minister of Finance will open debate, Mr. Speaker, on the Income Tax bill, Bill 6.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance, on Bill 6.

MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will be brief. This bill, essentially enables us to pay an income tax credit or, rather under the HST, a low income, to lower-income people. We indicated in the Budget last year, that we would be introducing a tax credit to lower-income people in conjunction with the existing GST credit. As things turned out, the federal government would not implement it for us until legislation was passed, and it is our hope that this House will see fit to pass it shortly so that we could have it ready to be sent out to the individuals of the Province who qualify for it. It would be nice for many people to receive this cheque, Mr. Speaker, prior to the Christmas-time. Revenue Canada will not issue payments until Royal Assent has been received so we would like to get the House to approve the payments which we have suggested and to have His Honour consent to it in due course. We will do it by either way of direct deposit or mailing - need I say more - Direct deposits will take a minimum of three days. I doubt if anyone would speculate how long the mail might take. In any event, if this House should, in its wisdom, see fit to pass it, we would then arrange for an appropriate mechanism for it to reach those who are qualified.

As hon. members may recall, the credit is $40 per adult and $60 per child and it starts to phase out at $15,000. I would also like to point out that the credit was given for greater certainty, (inaudible) shown, Mr. Speaker, that the change we made to the retail sales tax in the Province, amalgamating it with the existing GST was beneficial to all income groups, even those in as low as $10,000 per family unit and that people in that category would save in the vicinity of $1,000. So, Mr. Speaker, I feel comfortable in recommending to this House that we pass this legislation so that the government can issue to the people of the Province the credits that we had intended to in our spring Budget last.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We supported, actually from day one, any aspects that the government would take to lighten the burden for lower-income people from the HST. In fact, we indicated that government did not proceed far enough at all on instances. While, granted, $40 is something, it is not near enough to compensate for the extra taxes that these people had to pay on their lighting, their heating bills and other basic necessities that are affected by HST. Everything from haircuts - even to get out of the world there was a tax of 15 per cent on a funeral that we did not have, so we have had an increase. We have had a tremendous increase.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: I can tell you, it is not a dead issue. It is a real, burning issue today for everybody who is alive. It is a very active issue for all of us. It is a burning issue, and if I could light the fire under the minister to do more for low-income people... I mean, $40 is almost an insult, and somebody under $15,000 - to start the claw-back at $15,000.

Under benefits, I say to the minister, I think under federal government, they don't start clawing back, I think, until $20,921. He is not listening. Mr. Speaker, he is just not listening. He just introduces a bill and runs. I cannot get his ear to get a response.

I said that the claw-back starts federally, I think, at $20,921, when they start clawing back income, and here we are clawing back on $15,000 and saying we are going to give somebody $15,040. Now $40 on $15,000 is not significant when you look at the hundreds of dollars extra they are paying on their light bills, their heat bills, gasoline, fuel, and numerous other essential costs - even the cost of haircuts, the cost of funerals. At the same time this very government reduced the taxes on a fur coat, people saving hundreds and hundreds of dollars on one single item, and they nail and crucify people who can hardly make ends meet, who won't even turn up the furnace in their house or turn on the heat because they are cold; and here we are, going to give back a measly amount.

I support giving them back the money. We do not have the heart to not support it, any amount of money to give to these people, but I can tell you that it is a grossly inadequate amount of money that is certainly not going to do the job that is needed. Because, over the last while we have seen in this Province that people have been hit extremely hard, I say, very, very hard. People have been hit by government actions in numerous areas affecting seniors and low-income people.

We have just seen the minister today make some reference, in a Ministerial Statement, to make some alteration of change for certain individuals who are affected by this housing area. There are still other people. This change today is not even near enough to compensate for the increase to these low-income people on GST, when you add up the basic essentials, and the costs that these elderly people must pay.

Anybody who saw on TV yesterday this elderly couple, a couple I had spoken with, people on a very, very low income, I might add, on an extremely low income, trying to make ends meet. The lady indicated it had been seven years since she bought a dress.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: No. You can send me over a copy.

Over all, it is very sensitive when we start talking about what impact this government has had on low-income people. It hits a nerve, I say to the Government House Leader. It hits a nerve when you talk about cutbacks to low-income people, how they are crucified with taxes on GST.

Health care is another very critical example. They are talking about freezing a budget in health care in inflationary times. Freezing a budget is a decrease, especially in medical equipment where the cost of equipment is very expensive.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, I will get to you in about an hour. I think I am allowed an hour on this bill. I won't use the full hour, I say to the Government House Leader, but I will give him ample time.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much time do you need?

MR. SULLIVAN: And I am sure my colleague from Cape St. Francis has talked about how we have been crucified with fees and permits and licences over the last while, indirect taxation. They tell the people there is no increase in tax, and the Premier says we will have a reduction in personal income tax; but, he said, it won't be in the next few years.

What they should do first of all is start getting rid of the tax on jobs, the head tax on jobs in this Province, the payroll tax. Every person you hire, you pay extra money.

MR. TULK: You should see how much.

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, I say to the Government House Leader. I say the only thing not going down are taxes. Taxes are going up here, according to government. Taxes according to government are increasing rapidly.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Good. That means there is a lot of room for improvement, I can say to the Government House Leader. There is tremendous room for improvement, I would say to the Government House Leader. This bill here on income tax, and I would say here basically on income tax, they are talking about reducing income tax when they are crucifying people right, left and centre.

We have seen $73 million taken out of education. We have seen fees and permits, marriage licences, and numerous other areas. All we have to do is look at the list in this year's Budget. Look at the fees, there are numerous fees. This government talked about a three-year budget. Two pages in the 1997 Budget about a three-year plan, a three-year plan, I say, wrapped into two pages. Two particular pages, I might add.

Registration on duplicate vehicle registration, from $8 to $15. It is a doubling. Special permits from Motor Vehicle Registration from $0 to $300. I see dealer plates and taxi registration from $80 to $120 each. We have had the fees for mining leases and quarry permits gone up 100 per cent increase, from $40 to $80.

Here is an order we could use for government, an execution order. We could use a few of these for government. A 50 per cent increase, from $20 to $30. I ask the Government House Leader, could we have thirty-five execution orders? They are gone up from $20 to $30. Notices of appeal, attachment orders, certificates. I mean, unbelievable. Pages and pages. To get a disclosure document right now costs $25 and it cost nothing before. Accident letters. A letter on an accident now, a person has to get, I think, before they can get their licence renewed, a clearance, $50. Accident letters that are provided by the Newfoundland Constabulary, to go in now you pay $50.

AN HON. MEMBER: What do you mean, accident letters?

MR. SULLIVAN: I assume accident letters - I think my colleague would know - an accident letter is to indicate a clearance for insurance purposes. An accident letter, is that a clearance? If somebody is getting insurance, or a new person, and so on, I think, it is a $50 fee. For somebody getting a certificate of conduct, they are looking for a job, $25 to get a letter of conduct. Imagine, $25 for someone to say you are doing a good job. Unbelievable. Certificate of conduct, you would need about 100 of them, 100 applications to get a job. You would need $2,500. Administration fee on traffic fines, $7. The property conveyance of a dissolved company now is $750 from $0. Can you imagine? The photocopy, $1. Certificates of readiness, from $20 to $60.

MR. FITZGERALD: How about the fellow who went to court and paid $50 for a written transcript of his judgement?

MR. SULLIVAN: How much?

MR. FITZGERALD: Fifty dollars.

MR. SULLIVAN: Fifty dollars that when they read it out verbally there he had to go back and get a record just to get a clarification written of what the order was, where he could go, and how far he could stay from the ocean. He had to pay $50 to find out how close he is allowed to walk to the ocean. Now, can you imagine, $50. If that isn't a tax... A man was given a sentence, he went back to find out what the sentence was, he didn't get all the details, had to pay $50 to find out how many feet, is it, he is allowed to go –

MR. FITZGERALD: The judge would only allow him so many -

MR. SULLIVAN: So many feet from the salt water.

MR. FITZGERALD: - feet from the fresh water.

MR. SULLIVAN: He had to go back to get a letter. Fifty dollars to find out how many feet he could come within the salt water.

MR. FITZGERALD: He was from your district, Gerry, down your way.

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes. The District of Twillingate & Fogo.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who?

MR. FITZGERALD: I have his name. He has a cabin so many feet closer to the fresh water. He couldn't even go there.

MR. SULLIVAN: Can he move his cabin?

MR. FITZGERALD: He's not so sure if he can even live in his own home because he is close to the salt water.

MR. SULLIVAN: Is he allowed to throw a line from his cabin?

MR. FITZGERALD: He went to get a written transcript and it cost him $50.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, I mentioned that.

Stumpage fees for sawmill operators, a 50 per cent increase. Sock it to our sawmill operators here in the Province. Commercial farmers, an increase; non-commercial farmers, a huge increase; veterinary fees, annual rental fees, quarry... Sent someone up there and destroyed the LaManche gravel pit up there - they gave some permits up there - and it cost a double increase up there to violate and destroy the environment.

If you want to get a marriage certificate now, if you want to get married, it costs you. If you want to get divorced, it costs you a lot more.

AN HON. MEMBER: How much is a marriage certificate?

MR. SULLIVAN: Marriage used to be nothing; now it is $20. To get divorced used to be practically nothing. Now it costs you, depending on what you have. It costs you at least half of that. It is still a lot cheaper to get married than it is to get divorced. I am sure they will soon have a fee on that; you will have to get a certificate now on that, too, in addition to fees.

It says a search goes from $4 to $20 - in brackets behind search, three years. Does that mean you spend three years searching, or is it a three-year search? From $4 to $20, can you imagine, five times, a 500 per cent increase in a three-year search.

To register a snowmobile is $20 now, a 400 per cent increase.

MR. J. BYRNE: No tax increases, though.

MR. SULLIVAN: No tax increases, no, not at all.

Environment and Labour, pesticide fees, we could use some of them, $100 from zero for an operator's licence. An applicator's licence is up to $50 from zero, a vendor's licence $50 from zero. A certificate of approval for water and water systems - here is one, I say to my colleague from Cape St. Francis - a certificate of approval for water and waste water systems, based on the capital cost, starting at $200.

MR. J. BYRNE: There you go.

MR. SULLIVAN: Is he going to start at $200? The bottom line is about what, $500?

MR. J. BYRNE: Seven.

MR. SULLIVAN: Seven hundred dollars. There is even an inaccuracy in the budget. It is not even accurate information they put forward. It is unbelievable; the fee is higher.

We have a whole array of matters here, in increases in fees, and they are just some of the things that we will certainly be adding to a little bit later.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, we have a condition made, I think, with the hon. House Leader to forego the Late Show this evening to continue with this very important debate on some bills of the day.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have to confess something, I am afraid that if the Leader of the Opposition should make the hon. gentleman over there House Leader that those polls won't be as favourable as they are now.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, the co-operation of this gentleman is unbelievable. Sure we give leave. Why not?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to say a few words on this bill with respect to the HST.

I remember when the HST bill was discussed in this House of Assembly, and we said at that time that it was unfair to the low-income families in this Province. As a matter of fact, the Member for Baie Verte stood in his place here and had a breakdown of the cost for a family on social assistance, making $9,000 or $10,000 a year, and he said at that time, when you look at the increase for electricity, and the different requirements that a family needs today to live in this Province, it would cost that family over $700 a year, which is over 10 per cent - almost 10 per cent - of what their income would be. Now we have this Minister of Finance bringing in an amendment to the bill to give a tax break to the low income families.

Mr. Speaker, that could have been included back when they brought in this HST tax, when they combined the taxes last year or the year before, whenever it was.

Again we see an administration that is bringing in legislation all of the time, that immediately has to come back in a very short period of time and make amendments to it after we told them some of the problems on this side of the House that would happen and sure enough, it comes to pass again, Mr. Speaker.

Now it talks about taxes, Mr. Speaker, this is an amendment to the tax, the HST or whatever. This administration - and I am sick and tired of saying it, Mr. Speaker - standing in this House of Assembly, in my position and talking about the taxes that this administration are levying on the people of this Province. The Minister of Finance stood in his place, Mr. Speaker, not long ago actually since the House opened and bragged about the great job that he is doing. He talks about - in the past two years - how there were no tax increases in the budget. But what have we seen? We have seen untold increases in licences, fees and permits - costs for this Province. We saw some double, triple, quadruple, Mr. Speaker. We seen some brought in that had no charge before and are being charged now, Mr. Speaker.

We see the Minister of Finance trying to bring in a tax on used vehicles, Mr. Speaker, and they are talking about giving a break to the taxpayer of this Province, the low income families when we know that the low income families, all the vehicles that they can buy, Mr. Speaker, are used vehicles. They do everything they can to get a break and we are talking about this administration now trying to bring in a tax on used vehicles, Mr. Speaker, to pay taxes on money they did not spend. Hard earned money, Mr. Speaker. Hard earned money that these people - call it the working poor, Mr. Speaker, and this administration now is trying to basically rip them off again, to cause them to pay taxes on something they did not spend money on, Mr. Speaker. It is downright ludicrous. It is unfair, it is unjust, it is morally wrong. I have said this hundreds of times by now, Mr. Speaker.

Also the Premier, in the last election talked about hope. It was only recently he talked about reducing the income tax but not this year, not next year but maybe a couple of years down the road, Mr. Speaker, reduce the income tax that people are paying in this Province. Another hope, Mr. Speaker. I think I remember something that Sir Winston Churchill said - now I can't quote him directly but it is something like this: beware of the individual who breeds false hopes, soon swept away. The Premier of this Province, in the last election, built up the hopes of everybody in this Province but they have not delivered. They have not delivered by any stretch of the imagination. So again: beware of the individual who breeds false hopes, soon to be swept away. Sure enough, they were soon swept away and the people of this Province realize what they have done.

Now the Premier today was up talking about leading this group over here into the next election. God help this Province, Mr. Speaker, if that man does lead this party into the next election. Now the last time around, Mr. Speaker, I will make no bones about it and I have no problem saying it, in my district, when I was running and going door to door in the last provincial election, I was not running against my opponent in the district. I was running against Mr. Tobin. There is no doubt about that. The media had him built up so much, the national media, that that was who we were opposing. We were not opposing our opponents in the local districts; it was that individual, Mr. Speaker. He had the people's hopes built up in this Province and their hopes were soon swept away.

So we can have the Minister of Finance bring in an amendment to the HST to give a tax credit for the low income earners but, Mr. Speaker, I think it is too little too late. The leader of our party, the Leader of the Opposition here, Mr. Speaker, referred to a number of licence fees being specific but I don't need to be because in their budget for '95-'96 there were three pages of licence fees and permit increases. No tax increase. In '97-'98, whatever, six pages of fees, licence and permit increases. It was a sad day for this Province, Mr. Speaker, when that administration was elected over there. A sad, sad day and now the minister, the Government House Leader, Mr. Speaker, got the gall over there to wave around a poll. Now, I think, Sir Winston Churchill said about polls too, that dogs got the right idea about poles.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Because - it is no problem, I can answer that, no problem - because that was on accurate one. That was the right one, Mr. Speaker, I have no problem with that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: That was the right poll that was hanging on his desk. It was a scientific poll that was done and it showed the true feelings of the people of this Province, an up-to-date poll done on that given day. They have one that is three or four weeks old. Throw it out, it is no good.

What do you want to know about Churchill?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I can give you a few. Everything in due coarse, I say to the minister, but I think the most accurate one was the one I gave earlier, I say to the Minister of Mines and Energy: beware of people that bring false hopes, that carry false hopes, soon to be swept away, and the Premier did that a year and a half ago.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I do not want to compare the Premier to certain individuals, Mr. Speaker, I will try to be a man about it and not get down in the gutter, I will try to stay out of the gutter. The Minister of Mines and Energy was trying to get me into the gutter, but I will not, I am above that.

MR. SHELLEY: He is going to talk about sewers today.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, good point.

Mr. Speaker, now this administration here - the Minister of Government Services and Lands last week talking about giving a break to the tax payers of this Province. The Minister of Government Services and Lands trying to bring in a new tax on the people of this Province - basically a tax, a service that was provided by the government - they tried to bring in a fifty dollar fee last year, then they increased it to $200, but no, Mr. Speaker, that was not good enough. Now, they are going to require people in this Province who want to build a new home in rural Newfoundland, which is the worst place - rural Newfoundland, now they want people to pay $700 to $1,500 extra to build a home in rural Newfoundland. I would like to know why they are trying to force people out of rural Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker. You go across this Province and we are trying to get people to stay. We are always making arguments on this side of the House, what are we going to do for rural Newfoundland? How are we going to help rural Newfoundland? How are we going to get people to stay in rural Newfoundland? But on that side of the House what they are trying to do, is to force - what?

MR. FUREY: Why did you vote against confederation?

MR. J. BYRNE: That is a good question, I say to the Minister of Mines and Energy, I was not born then, I was born in 1951, but I will tell you one thing, if I was around in 1949 and I was eighteen or nineteen or twenty years old, I wonder where I would be, if I would be for confederation or joining the U.S. or stay on our own, I do not know. I have done a lot of reading on that, more I say, then the Minister of Mines and Energy who is forty years behind the times.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, how much time do you want? How much time do I have, an hour?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I think that minister should be made to retract that statement, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, this is a serious issue and the people on that side of the House may try to ridicule and reduce this to a joke, Mr. Speaker, but this is a bill that the Minister of Finance is bringing in here and the people on that side of the House are laughing at it. I think we have to be serious -

MR. SHELLEY: Shameful.

MR. J. BYRNE: Shameful. The Government House Leader making a joke of the Minister of Finance.

MR. SHELLEY: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Education is not in his own chair and he is not allowed to say anything.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, now this is a very serious bill. The Premier should be speaking to this bill. He is the man that brought in false hopes here soon to be swept away.

Anyway, there are all kinds of points that can be made on this, Mr. Speaker. As I said earlier and I got rudely distracted by the Minister of Mines and Energy, $700 to $1,500 the people in rural Newfoundland will have to pay now to have a building lot assessed, for an on-site inspection for a septic sewer.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: That has nothing to do with it.

MR. J. BYRNE: This is taxes, we are talking taxes, aren't we?

I am telling you it is too much, too little, too late, I say to the Government House Leader, Mr. Speaker, too little, too late. If they had listened to us when they brought in the HST bill a year or two ago, this would have been addressed at that point in time.

We were saying at that time of the impact it would have on lower-income earners in this Province, but he said -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I am supporting it but I am saying: too little too late, Mr. Speaker, and yes, it is the right thing to be doing, but if that government would listen to the arguments that we make on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, 99 per cent of the time, always, Mr. Speaker, right on, we are always right on, they consistently come back to change it, that is the problem, they will not listen to us, they will not listen to the people of the Province, Mr. Speaker.

MR. FUREY: Do you have to speak to every Bill?

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon? Now the minister makes a good point there you know. It depends on what the bill is I suppose, but I am only up to page 10 yet.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, Mr. Speaker, this is serious, I have a lot to say on this topic but we have so many other bills to get through, important legislation that the Government House Leader wants to put through and the acting Opposition House Leader here, Mr. Speaker, asked me to say a few words on this. I think I have said enough on this bill so we are going -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I wish he would bring out the Pickle Book again. I wish he would, Mr. Speaker, because I can tell you, I can counteract that any day of the week with respect to the jokes he makes about that situation there a number of years ago where, the previous administration, the previous, previous, where the PC Government, Mr. Speaker, created 300 jobs for two years and all we have seen this administration do, is to cut jobs since they have been in and they have the gall to question that. I will tell you how I will describe it, okay?

I was not around at the time, Mr. Speaker, by the way; the only individual in this House now, who was involved with the Sprung Greenhouse is sitting on the other side of the House, I say, he is sitting on the other side of the House -

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes. I can tell you that, Mr. Speaker, no one here on this side, but I agree, we have to try new things. We have to try new things I say to the minister, we have to try new things but, the magnitude is what we have to look at. It may not have been too bad maybe with just one or two, but the thing is, we created 300 jobs for two years. Now we see in this Administration, Mr. Speaker, created no jobs, none, zilch, boom, none, gone, just like that, no jobs. We have seen them let people go right, left and centre -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, I am glad you said that, not bad is it, but we have $40 million for Trans City with no jobs from that administration, $40 million. We had $10 million, Mr. Speaker, trying to privatize Newfoundland Hydro, not a job created, now we are up to $50 million, Mr. Speaker, that is Newfoundland Hydro. Murray Premises could cost another $17 million probably, over the length of the time, soon to come, now we are up to $67 million, not a job created, Mr. Speaker, not a job, and they have the gall to talk about $20 million and we created 300 jobs for two years. That is only a start.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Twillingate - Fogo, makes a comment, who is serious about what? I do not know what he is talking about. Here is our acting House Leader telling me we have to continue, Mr. Speaker.

The HST is a tax that was brought in here. There was a lot of opposition to it I must say. We brought up many concerns in the House of Assembly at the time and the people in the Province. Basically, all they did, Mr. Speaker, was to combine the GST and the PST and call it the HST. That is what this administration did, Mr. Speaker, and by the way, I think there were only three provinces that did it, three Liberal administrations, that brought in the HST, and they were three Liberal provinces. Basically all they were doing was trying to get the Prime Minister out of trouble before the last election. That is all they were doing, trying to get the Prime Minister of Canada, who made a promise they would abolish the GST... The deputy Prime Minister, Sheila Copps, at that time, actually resigned over the matter after she was forced to resign. She said she would resign if they did not abolish the GST, and the media and the public got onto it and forced her to resign, so the provinces tried to bail out the federal government, the three Liberal administrations.

At that time, as I said earlier, if they had listened to us at the time, they would not have to come back today and make amendments to the HST legislation, or the bill. They would not have to be doing it. All I can say is that hopefully in the future you will listen to the points and the concerns that we bring up on this side of the House.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise for just a few minutes today to make a couple of comments on "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act". We all in the House agree that low-income people should have rebates, and the people who are most volatile in our society today have some kind of relief from the economic conditions that surround them.

This is a finance bill so I want to make a couple of points on something I have been meaning to bring up the last few days actually, and I think it is something we should start discussing and which the government should start considering.

Mr. Speaker, as you go around the Province - I talked to a lot of people, young people, and of course these days there are a lot of people middle-aged, let's say thirties to forties, who are going back to do further education, who want to get back in, diversify, and go into different job portfolios, so what they are doing at different ages now is going back for training.

One thing I wanted to speak about today, to raise in debate, was actually brought to my attention by a lot of students at the community college in Baie Verte, and by the instructors there, in particular an instructor by the name of Dave (inaudible) who raised it very loud and clear at a meeting I had in Baie Verte at the community college a short while ago, and all of the students felt the same thing. Basically, they were having a discussion on another topic but this particular topic came up, and it has all to do with people training these days and then not knowing where they are ending up afterwards. As a matter of fact, they are saying that it is a disincentive for people to go into training because they do not know how they can get connected to the workforce after they finish their training.

What I think we should be talking about, or at least starting to discuss more and more - and with the Ministers of Education and Industry, Trade and Technology and so on here today it is a good time to bring it up - is the apprenticeship program. A lot of times we find that young people - and, of course, anybody who is training these days - there is a break from where you do your training until you go into the workforce. The worst phrase, I guess, and the most feared phrase of these people who train, is to go into an established business - contractors or what have you - and for the person to look at you and say: Yes, we just finished our trade, our degree, or whatever, and they look at you and say: You have no experience.

Obviously you don't have any experience. You have to get work to get experience. What people are saying is that there is a link missing, and I really think that the government of the day should take a serious look at another apprenticeship program to put in place so that stepping stone is there.

Like I said, Mr. Speaker, it is not just for the people who are training right now but it is an incentive. If they knew - and the Government House Leader says they are, and I hope they are. I hear rumours of it, of course, and speculation and so on, but I really believe it is a link that needs to be developed. The people of this Province, the men and women who are training now, want an incentive.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: The House Leader did, I must say. He has interrupted me but I don't mind that because he is right. He has hinted to me that, in fact, there is a program being considered, or being worked on, and it is very important; because I am going to tell you, with the training and things that are going on around this Province, yes, there are a lot of negatives, but at the same time it is a great incentive for them to go and even look at these courses and take them on, knowing full well that they have that link between the training aspect and going into the actual workforce.

I think it is important for anybody who goes in training. I must say that the students at the community college, Mr. Speaker, and the other instructors there, put forward the point quite well the day that they said it would be a great incentive for a lot of young people and a lot of - whatever age you are these days when you do your training. A great incentive. They knew that there was an apprentice program in place that was going to enable those people to do their courses and then, Mr. Speaker, go in and get that worthwhile experience, on the job apprenticeship work so that they can hopefully stay within the Province. That is our whole aim but if it happens to be that they have to go to other provinces, at least they don't just go with a certificate. They go with the experience and apprenticeship completed so that they can move on into the workforce and become productive members of society and not worry about the stamps or social assistance or anything like that.

They can move on because these people who are training, Mr. Speaker, make no mistake, have no intentions of collecting UI or social services. They are there because they are the people in our society around this Province who believe in themselves. That is why they have gone to school. That is why they have gone into training. That is why the government of the day should give every possible consideration into a good solid apprenticeship program that will close that gap, close the gap of training and going into the workforce. That is very important, Mr. Speaker, and it is very important for - I say for rural Newfoundland but it is important for Newfoundland as a whole but especially in rural parts of Newfoundland and Labrador today, Mr. Speaker. That way we will see our brightest and young people saying, yes it is worthwhile to do the training.

So I really support that and ask if government can consider that in the next little while. So that is the only point I wanted to speak on today, Mr. Speaker. I will pass it over to my colleague to make a few more remarks. So, Mr. Speaker, that is one point on training that I -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, I am just about finished. I will just conclude by saying, Mr. Speaker, that I think that the government should look at this very seriously in the next little while.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: I won't be long, I say to the Government House Leader, I just want to make a few points on the -

MR. FITZGERALD: I will get into the nuts and bolts of it after.

MR. E. BYRNE: My colleague from Bonavista South, as eloquent as ever. As the Government House Leader calls him, Steve Neary will always live as long as this member is in the House, from what I understand.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: And it was reflected yesterday in his comment when he said to the Premier: you can't sing with the angels in the daytime and sleep with the devils at dark. It was a great response and again today, Mr. Speaker, in response to a ministerial statement he said he expects the minister next week to stand up and announce a license for sheep for Aunt Martha. A very, very eloquent member.-

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: I say to the Government House Leader, I am not convinced of that. I don't know if the former House Leader has the record that this member has in the few short years that he has been here. Should I remind him of your record? Where he's such a modest member, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Bonavista South is so modest that I will speak on his behalf. I will remind the Government House Leader of this member's record; in 1993 he ran for the nomination in Bonavista South, was successful; ran in the election in May against a Cabinet minister and defeated him. Where has that member gone? Where he is? He's gone isn't he?

AN HON. MEMBER: Gone.

MR. E. BYRNE: He came in here, Mr. Speaker, in the House, critic for Social Services, I believe, within less than nine months. Where is that minister?

AN HON. MEMBER: Gone.

MR. E. BYRNE: He became critic for the new Minister of Social Services or entered the next election, ran against another Cabinet minister, high profile, a heavy weight Cabinet minister ran against this Member for Bonavista South and where is that member and that minister today?

AN HON. MEMBER: Gone.

MR. E. BYRNE: Now, Mr. Speaker, I forgot that before the last election was called the former -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I have indeed made the comment that the hon. gentleman said that I think the hon. gentleman has the makings of a young Steve Neary. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to correct him though on something that he said, he has not yet reached the record that Steve Neary reached. Mr. Speaker, there was not a person, I say to the hon. gentleman, in this Province and I do not care who hears me say this, there was not a person who could have won Burgeo, was it, - the Member for Terra Nova would know this -

AN HON. MEMBER: Burgeo & LaPoile.

MR. TULK: Burgeo & LaPoile, as an independent member in the -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: LaPoile at that point - could not have won LaPoile as an independent member and that gentleman over there has not yet reached that stature. Where he could have walked into LaPoile like Steve Neary did, took on his own party, took on the Tory candidate, who happened to be the sitting member, the incumbent at the time, and knocked him off and walked in here as the independent member in spite of all odds. It has never been done in the history of this Province and I want to tell the hon. gentleman, that if he can ever do it, ever perform that feat, if he ever finds himself in that place, I will take my hat off to him.

MR. E. BYRNE: He interrupted because I wasn't concluded.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I had not concluded because there was an oversight in what I was about to say in the timing of events, that when a former member for St. George's was appointed to the Cabinet as fisheries and aquaculture, he was the critic and where did he end up?

MR. FITZGERALD: Where is he now?

MR. E. BYRNE: Where is he now?

AN HON. MEMBER: Gone.

MR. E. BYRNE: Gone, Mr. Speaker, that member is gone.

So, in four short years this member has won two nominations, he has won two elections and in the four years he has been here he has bumped off four different Cabinet ministers.

Now, I do not know, Mr. Speaker, I do not know -

MR. TULK: Steve Neary had more (inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: I do not know if there was another member in four years who has been able to accomplish that, but there is a cautionary note to the ministers that the member now shadows, very much a cautionary note, because he will not say it himself, so I will say it for him, he is a personal friend, I have known him a long time, as Bill Rowe on Open Line said, Mr. Fitzgerald when talking about the fisheries committee, I know that you were the first person to raise this and he said, you are a modest man, I know you will not take any credit publicly and he said, you are a modest man aren't you? The member replied, absolutely, I am a very modest individual. If he continues, which I am sure he is going to because he is getting better with his time spent in here, Mr. Speaker -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: I will get to that in a second -

MR. FITZGERALD: I am going to announce it now in a minute.

MR. E. BYRNE: I am telling you that if he continues along the line, that the ministers that he is now shadowing will not be here very long after and an indication today was when the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifood got up, so starved for news, so embattled by this ministers commentary publicly on every issue, he had to get up and ask and give a ministerial statement about Uncle Sam's Butcher Shop in Labrador.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader on a point of order.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. gentleman must surely have seen what I have in my hand and got the numbers and knows that there is no hope for that leader there and he is now straightening himself out to be the campaign manager for the Member for Bonavista South when he runs for the leadership of his party. Good show, Ed.

MR. SPEAKER: Is the hon. member speaking to the point of order?

MR. E. BYRNE: No, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I will say it for the record of the House, I have not seen any polls yet. I will say for the record of the House, that if I was ever in a position from now until another week or another year, to be this man's campaign manager, it would not be the first time, sir, would it?

MR. FITZGERALD: You are absolutely right.

MR. E. BYRNE: It would not be the first time. In 1993 - is that right? There we go. In 1993, for the record, who was your campaign manager, sir, for Bonavista South? Who went down and helped you out? Who went down and advised you?

MR. FITZGERALD: Right here.

MR. E. BYRNE: It was this member here. So, our history is long, our friendship is true and I stand by this member for his accomplishments and for his record in this House, I tell you that Mr. Speaker, any time, any day.

MR. FITZGERALD: This going out to all of my constituents, Hansard, tomorrow.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Give me a minute, I am going to have to think about that. But not too long, Mr. Speaker, because the Member for Cape St. Francis too, another great Member of the House of Assembly, returned for a second time by his constituents in the face of adversity, but has survived and will conquer.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: She will be back, she will be back.

MR. E. BYRNE: There is no question about it, sir. The former Member for Humber East, the former Leader of the Party, will be back in this Assembly, and there is a member sitting in the House who will be a one-term member only. One term only. Mark it down. The Member for Cape St. Francis is absolutely right. There is no doubt in my mind about it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: Haven't seen it. No, what is it? Send it over. No, you can't read from a document either, so you can send it over to me and let me have a look at it.

John Diefenbaker said that dogs know best what to do with polls. Len Simms used to say: Don't get excited about a poll. Even when he was ahead of Clyde Wells before he retired, when he was five points ahead of Wells himself, personally. In all modesty he used to say: Polls are not something to cower about, and polls are not something to crow about. Because they represent a view and just a snapshot in time, Mr. Speaker.

With that, it gave me great pleasure to stand today and talk about my colleague for Bonavista South, his record in this House, and accomplishments in the short time that he has been here. I know full well, I say to all people, and all Members in this House, that the type of record that he has will continue. I look forward to some day, Mr. Speaker, standing again and expanding upon his present record. Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Before I comment on Bill 6, I have to say this is one of the most interesting afternoons I have ever sat and listened to speeches in this House of Assembly. The speech just delivered by my colleague here, the Member for Kilbride, was probably one of the best speeches ever given in this Legislature. Very insightful. True, very complex, relived, went back, took us through the history of a certain member here, a very modest member of this House. It was true and he spoke from the heart, I say to members opposite.

Even the Minister of Education sat in silence and nodded to acknowledge what was happening here. Knew very well it was true. Couldn't ignore it. The Minister of Education could very well have been sitting there where the Member for Labrador West is sitting. Probably should have been there. I think he should have been there. He would have done a much better job, and if he had had a few more people giving him some encouragement I think he would have taken the plunge, and I think he would have done very well with it. He has missed it now. I don't think the Minister of Education will ever offer himself again for the leadership of this Party.

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes he (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: No, I think he has lived his day. I don't think you will see the Minister of Education sit in this House any more. In fact, there would be a vast difference in the benches on the other side if there was an election called today. No, I don't think the minister would do very well. He isn't leadership material any more. He has lost his fight. He is like the Minister of Justice and Attorney General. Changed man, spunk has gone out of him, there is no kick left in him. He is here just filling a chair, floating along, waiting to retire. The Premier won't let him go, afraid there is going to be a by-election, and he knows what will happen. The numbers here will go from ten to eleven.

I do not know if there are five districts over there that could call a by-election now that we would not win. I say to the Member for Twillingate and Fogo, he may win his. I will give him a little bit of praise, I heard him on the radio this morning speaking in response to the private member's motion that was put forward by the Member for Baie Verte, and he did a good job; he should speak more often. He talked sense, Mr. Speaker, and he is one of the very few people over there to get up and speak, but when he does, the media latches on to him. So I say to the member, continue to do that, because that is the way you will get elected. You will not be getting elected on the record of this government, I can guarantee you that.

The Member for Labrador West, a one-term wonder, Mr. Speaker. He will not sit here in this House of Assembly when this session is over. When the Writ is served, that member will have been a one-term member. In fact, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that his own Party will run somebody against him. That is the rumour on the street. It is too bad, but that is what happens.

AN HON. MEMBER: Which street?

MR. FITZGERALD: Which street? That is the word on all the streets.

AN HON. MEMBER: `Roger', what about the Member for Humber East?

MR. FITZGERALD: The Member for Humber East? I do not know too much about the Member for Humber East. He has taken on the Premier now, taken on his government. He is soon going to get frustrated. Let me read what this member said - he is in big trouble: "Tobin says: `Byrne should look again.'" This is his protégé out on the West Coast. Let me get a little closer to home: "Even Humber East MHA, Bob Mercer, was left scratching his head over the vote." The Member for Humber East was left scratching his head, Mr. Speaker. "`A number of us got sandbagged,' said Mercer. `We were not even aware that was on the agenda that day.' Tobin denies the accusations. `There is no plot here, there is no conspiracy here, to me, the logic is compelling,' said Tobin. `I will have had no choice,' said Mr. Mercer. Mercer said he would have gone against his Party and Premier and voted against the motion had he known the resolution." Mr. Speaker, the wheels are coming off `er', that is what happens.

Let us refer to another letter, Mr. Speaker, to show that the wheels are coming off `'er'. We talked about a backbencher - and as I look over, I am not so sure but that member is sitting in the same seat that the Government House Leader sat in for three years and sat sideways, he could not even look at the Premier, could not look at this side, could not look at the Speaker; I believe he is in the same seat, Mr. Speaker. There certainly has not been much activity in that chair.

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible) Joan-Marie Aylward's letter now, a Member of Cabinet.

MR. FITZGERALD: Now, Mr. Speaker, I will read another letter from a Member of Cabinet, written on government stationery: The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, Joan-Marie Aylward, MHA, St. John's Centre, Minister of Health. It is a letter regarding the relocation of Marine Atlantic headquarters to St. John's: `It has come to my attention that the site of Marine Atlantic's head office, presently located at Moncton, is scheduled to come under review in the near future. This development has occurred as a direct result of the expected completion of PEI's fixed link to the mainland in 1997.' I will not go on and read all that, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: Go on, boy, she voted in favour of a move.

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay, well, I will read it all. `In addition to a number of other measures designed to streamline the Crown corporation, I would like to lend my voice to an intensifying chorus of support...' Listen to this - here is the kicker right here - `I would like to lend my voice to an intensifying chorus of support...' Listen, you talk about Cabinet solidarity, you talk about a group of people sticking together.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Listen to this, from a member, a minister of Cabinet, a senior minister in the Administration of this Province. Listen to what she says.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Listen to this.

MR. E. BYRNE: Listen to her letter.

MR. FITZGERALD: You talk about a double standard; you talk about singing with the angels and sleeping with the devil - just listen to this.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: You cannot have it both ways.

Listen to what I have to say. Do not be so touchy on it. Listen. You do not know what she said.

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader, on a point of order.

MR. TULK: The hon. gentlemen have had a terrible time today over there again. They have been over there trying to make up for that blue piece of paper we have here showing those numbers. They have been over there trying to make up for the fact that last week they came into this Legislature, asked for leave to introduce a resolution - we gave them leave to introduce the resolution, and then they had two of their own members stand and vote against a private member.

Now, the hon. gentleman can get up and try to sing with the angels all he likes. He can sing out of both sides of his mouth with the angels. The truth of the matter is that a couple of his members must have been -

AN HON. MEMBER: A couple of his members are singing (inaudible).

MR. TULK: No, I cannot say that. The truth is that a couple of his members from St. John's voted against his own member's resolution. He cannot escape that fact. He can read from letters all he likes, the truth is he cannot escape that fact.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: You cannot have it both ways, I say to the Government House Leader.

Let me read to you what the Minister of Health, a very important cog in this Cabinet, a very important player - let me read what she says: `I would like to lend my voice to an intensifying course of support.'

Listen to this: `St. John's is the most…'

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Listen. I will get it right: `St. John's is the most logical site for the relocation of Marine Atlantic's head office, based on operational efficiency, cost-effectiveness, and common sense. I respectfully request that you give every consideration to locating Marine Atlantic's head office from Moncton to St. John's.'

Now, that is the Minister of Health. That is your colleague who sits with you at the Cabinet table. Where is she? She cannot have it both ways.

AN HON. MEMBER: What was the date on the letter?

MR. FITZGERALD: It does not matter what the date is. So, what is it, two weeks at a time you are allowed to change your mind? You make up your mind and you stick with it. You live with it, boy.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: The date is - no date, Mr. Speaker, so I would think it would be a very current letter.

You cannot go and do it this way. You cannot have it both ways, I say to members opposite. When those people from Marine Atlantic -

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, this hon. gentleman has obviously read from a letter (inaudible). At least he should be required to table the thing. It is a long-standing rule of this House that if you read from something it should be tabled.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair is trying to hear what the hon. the Government House Leader is saying.

MR. TULK: Do you want me to say it again?

Mr. Speaker, the truth is that the hon. gentleman has read from a letter, and obviously, it is a long-standing tradition in the House that if you read from something you table it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

It is in fact a long-standing tradition that hon. members do not read from letters or from documents or from newspapers. But it has also been ruled on, on many occasions, that members of the Opposition are not permitted to table documents or letters in the House of Assembly.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader, on a point of order.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Your Honour -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to take his seat.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Your Honour is absolutely right. He is not allowed to read from letters. He got away with having read from the letter, and therefore he has an obligation to table it in this Legislature.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

It has been ruled on in this House on a number of occasions - it is the same ruling that the Chair just made a few minutes ago. Even though the hon. member did in fact read from a letter, which is contrary to the long-established tradition of the House of Assembly, nevertheless, there is no provision that permits him to table a document in the House of Assembly.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: I say to the Government House Leader, it should not be too hard to get a copy, boy, she is your colleague. She sits with you at the Cabinet table. I do not know if the Government House Leader is in the loop or if he is out of the loop. If he is in the loop he should be able to get a copy.

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader, on a point of order.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the truth of the matter is - and I do not want in any way to challenge Your Honour's ruling - the truth of the matter is, the hon. gentleman read from a letter. If we are going to protect the decorum in this House, and people are going to be allowed to stand up and read from something, they also have to table it. They have to table it, Mr. Speaker. It has to be tabled.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: No, no, it is only ministers who have to table information. It was ruled here in this House before. A private member is under no obligation to table anything.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The Chair will take the point of order under advisement and will rule on it shortly.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to abuse the rules of the House here.

MR. GRIMES: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education, on a point of order.

MR. GRIMES: Just to point out that the hon. member, in quoting from a letter, indicated there was no date on it. For the record, I think it should show that the letter is over a year old, and a few things have changed since then. In fact, the debate was a couple of days ago. Our people respond to changing circumstances -they do not.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Is the hon. member speaking to the point of order?

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order.

MR. E. BYRNE: How does he know it was over a year old?

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, whether the letter is a year old or whether it is six months old is not an issue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. FITZGERALD: What this member did was read from a letter written by the Minister of Health and given to Marine Atlantic with her commitment to endorse keeping the jobs and the office right here in St. John's, and then she stood in her place and voted against it.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader, to the point of order.

MR. TULK: To that point of order. The hon. gentleman, the Minister of Education, has raised the exact point that needs to be raised. The exact point is this: If members are going to read, regardless of whether they are allowed to or not - and I agree with Your Honour, they are not allowed to read - but once they have read, in order to protect the propriety of this House, and the decorum and the integrity of this House, they have to be recorded at the Table so that the information can be ascertained as to whether it is accurate or not.

I would ask Your Honour to either stop him from reading it and have him table it or otherwise make a ruling on the point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South, to the point of order.

MR. FITZGERALD: I referenced part of the letter; I did not read the letter. I referenced part of the letter, and what was said in it - paraphrasing.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair has already stated that the issue would be taken under advisement, and as soon as the necessary references are obtained a ruling will be given to the House.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: Oh, I am sorry.

MR. SPEAKER: In the absence of the hon. Minister of Finance, I am assuming the Government House Leader will be closing the debate?

MR. TULK: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The bill is an indication of this government's commitment to the working poor in this Province. We have heard statement after statement after statement by various ministers in this House in the last two or three months to try to ease the burden of those people who are on low income.

Mr. Speaker, I would have to assume that there will be a unanimous vote on this resolution, that the Opposition will vote in favour of this resolution. Otherwise, the trends that we are looking at - not only will people not receive cheques for Christmas, and that is the purpose of this bill, to see that the legislation has to be passed in time for people to get cheques for Christmas, however they get them. We may not be able to mail them. It depends on what happens -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: But they will be available.

Otherwise, this crowd on the opposite side, if they vote against the principle of this bill, are going to see increases in our popularity, decreases in their popularity, like in this poll today.

I know, Mr. Speaker, that the best offence - I say to the hon. gentlemen on the other side, I spent years over there - the best defence, rather, of sliding, slipping down in the polls, being on, as Steve Neary would say, `that slippery slope', the best defence that you can have is a good offence. We have seen the Opposition members this evening, true to their backbone, and as they should, say: In spite of the fact that our leader has slipped nine points in the polls, in spite of the fact that the Premier has gone up nine points in the polls since August, in spite of the fact that we have slipped severely as a party in the polls and the Liberal Party has gone up since August some twelve, thirteen or fourteen points in the polls, in spite of all of that -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: I say to the hon. gentleman, the figures do not lie. Here they are.

In spite of the fact that satisfaction with the Tobin government has increased some 20 per cent since August - can you believe that - some 20 per cent since August, in spite of all of that they have put on a good show and they have tried their best.

I think the Member for Kilbride, my member, recognizes that the jig is up, that they had better change. He is the quickest off the mark, I tell you that. He is pretty good when it comes to change in leadership; he knows when it has to be done. He and the, I think it was the Member for Bonavista South, knew when the last leader had to go. They knew right quick.

AN HON. MEMBER: They pushed her out.

MR. TULK: They pushed her out right fast. Get out, girl, you're not doing the job. Be gone. Be out of here. We won't even give you a chance to say your fond farewells to us all. Be gone. Now he is over there this evening on the course. There is only one question I am not sure of. I say to the Member for Humber East, there is only one question I am not sure of: He was over there praising the Member for Bonavista South, and there are two ways you have to look at that. You have to sit here and say: Is he doing it with the hope that he can attract the support of the Member for Bonavista South for himself? Or is he doing it, saying: I am now declaring that the Member for Bonavista South should be a leadership candidate.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. TULK: No, I do not think so because as soon as he was finished - and I say this to the Member for Bonavista South, watch him - because as soon as he was finished he turned around and he looked at the Member for Cape St. Francis and he said, what a wonderful member he is too.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: I immediately sat here and said to myself - and Mr. Speaker, I will get back to relevancy very quickly, this is very revenant - I sat here and I said to myself, the present Leader of the Opposition should watch his back.

Mr. Speaker, this is a great bill -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: This house leader is a wonderful man. I tell you I have never seen such an improvement in such a short period of time in the opposition as I have seen in the last twenty-four hours.

Mr. Speaker, this is a great bill. It is a real Liberal bill that shows that indeed we want to see the poor in this Province get their just deserve before Christmas.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: On Motion, a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 36 "An Act To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act".

MR. SPEAKER: Order number?

MR. TULK: Order No. 16, Bill No. 36.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act" (Bill No. 36).

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Finance -no, he is out working, I say, he is out doing some stellar work for the Province, as he always is.

AN HON. MEMBER: Stellar work (inaudible).

MR. TULK: Saving the Province, bringing us back from the edge of bankruptcy that the former Tory administration put us on.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: He has done a marvellous job. The Minister of Finance has done a great job. He has done such a great job that there is now, Mr. Speaker, I think it is safe to say, some light at the end of the tunnel. I thought he had come back, but what a mistake I made.

MR. FITZGERALD: Minister, I have a copy here of an advertisement that you put in the papers some time ago.

MR. TULK: Not me, no. I do not believe I did, I say to the hon. gentleman.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes you did.

MR. TULK: If I did, I say to the hon. gentleman, that is probably the reason I was flicked out of the department.

AN HON. MEMBER: I guess you buffaloed him.

MR. TULK: Did it buffalo you, I ask the Member for Bonavista South, did it buffalo you?

Now, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance has done a great job in this Province and another great bill that he has brought forward here -

AN HON. MEMBER: He wants you to sit down.

MR. TULK: Who wants me to sit down?

AN HON. MEMBER: The House Leader.

MR. TULK: Does he? No. I say to the great Opposition House Leader, that I asked to introduce this bill -

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: This bill authorizes an increase in the Tobacco Tax rebate. Listen to this: The Minister of Finance is making more rebates. Tobacco tax rebates for cigarettes sold in and for consumption in the Towns of Labrador City and Wabush.

Now I know that the Member for Labrador West - I will say he wants to stand up and say a few words on this - and for the coastal areas of Southern Labrador extending from the border with the Province of Quebec to and including the community of Red Bay. The general Tobacco Tax rate for cigarettes is 11.0 cents per cigarette.

Now, Mr. Speaker, this is another example of this government listening to people, going out and listening to people in Labrador and doing what is absolutely necessary to place them on an equal footing with other Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. Mr. Speaker, having said that, I don't suppose there will be any debate on the other side because they cannot stand up and say that when good news arrives, that yes, we support and I do not see them standing up, Mr. Speaker, and saying anything against the principle of this bill.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before introducing the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, I would like to rule on the most recent point of order.

I would direct all hon. members' attention to Beauchesne, paragraph 498, subsection (3): "When quoting a letter in the House, a Member must be willing either to give the name of the author or to take full responsibility for the contents." It is the Chair's opinion that the hon. member did in fact do just that. I would also refer to §495(6) at which it says: "A private Member has neither the right nor the obligation to table an official, or any other, document."

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just want to speak for a couple of minutes on this bill. Back some time ago I asked questions in the House of the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board, and the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board didn't respond in a positive fashion to the needs of people in Labrador West, and in Southern Labrador I might add. He indicated: We can't have a different tiered tax situation, basically, is what he said in his response to my questions in the House.

I felt it was important. I'm sure the Member for Labrador West is going to praise me up when he gets up, I can just see it there. I went down to Labrador and said: I've got to get this issue resolved myself. I can't depend on the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board. In a speech to the Chamber of Commerce -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, they gave me a big page story down there, that I agree with the Chamber of Commerce of Lab West that businesses were not being put on a level playing field with businesses across the border in Quebec. This government has an obligation to assist people in this particular Province to try to make a living instead of having to head westward.

I must say, under pressure again, not because they saw the need to do it to help people, but because of pressure brought to bear, they changed it. I'm delighted something was done to appreciate the problems and challenges businesses in parts of the Province have to face from competition outside the Province. If we can't do something to adjust it - other provinces in this country have reciprocated in border towns. Lloydminster in Saskatchewan-Alberta, right on the border, where one side is in Alberta and one side Saskatchewan.

There are cross-border adjustments in areas of this country whereby we understand the difficulties that businesses have to endure in trying to sell a product. Not only the tobacco tax. It went beyond that. People went over to buy - whether it was a bottle of liquor or buy other things besides tobacco, and buying across the border, we are damaging businesses in Lab West, Southern Labrador, and employees who work for those businesses who depend on a volume of sales for their employment levels that they have in those areas. So it is important. The unfortunate thing is that it took them so long to wise up to it and the public pressure had to escalate to get a result. That is the sad part of it, and all he said when I asked the questions: `Oh, the member - I have been talking to the Member for Labrador West.' Nothing was done, absolutely nothing.

I took a trip to Labrador, $1,800 out of our party to go down and convince them. That is right, out of our provincial party, $1,800 -$1,400 for an airfare and other costs in that ball park - to convince people that we need to do something for businesses there. I must say, I got a very positive response back. It got some play down in that area and they responded.

MR. E. BYRNE: The member could not do it.

MR. SULLIVAN: That is right, the member did not do it. He should have come out on behalf of the people and indicated what we need to do. It is unfortunate that it has to drag to that level. I am delighted there is a recognition, I say to the Member for Labrador West. I am delighted there is a recognition of the differences and, as I mentioned, the challenges that we have in different parts of our Province. We have to have a sympathetic ear to ways and means, regardless of who suggests it, to be able to accommodate those people, the employees and the people who depend on that for a living.

Overall, the changes made, from my understanding since, the problem has been reduced somewhat. The businesses now in the area are experiencing the benefits of that. Hopefully - I do not know what the specifics are of employment there, but at least it gives more income to the people there to spend more money, more taxation, put more money into our economy, rather than having it go into the economy of another province. I am a little selfish; I want to see it here in our Province. Anything that can entice that to happen in our Province, it is fantastic. That is where the money should be kept where possible, to spend our money here in the Province. It adds to it and I think it is important. I will not belabour the point here. I have made the points on this particular bill and I will now sit down, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. CANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to say that I do appreciate some of the notions that were expressed by the Leader of the Opposition, but by-and-large, on this tobacco tax issue, the Leader of the Opposition was blowing a lot of smoke. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, the Finance Minister, along with me and along with a committee of business people out of Labrador West sat down and came up with a comprehensive, creative, innovative approach to dealing with this tobacco tax issue. That is why it is resolved today. It is resolved because we went out and found a mechanism that would work. It had nothing to do - as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I should tell you that the previous Member for Labrador West thanked me for this particular initiative and for that which we achieved in this particular piece of legislation.

Mr. Speaker, I want to say, too, that all is not done on this tobacco tax issue. There is an issue with respect to the excise tax that we are still working with with the Federal Government. We believe that the Government of Canada ought to reduce their federal excise tax to equal the federal excise tax being charged in Fermont, Quebec so that we truly are on a level playing field. We still continue to discuss this with the Federal Government, the federal Minister of Finance, to ensure that they participate in what has become a very creative solution to a very difficult and complicated problem.

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Minster of Finance for seeing a problem, for acting on behalf of the government to ensure that the people in Labrador West, and indeed, those living on the South Coast of Labrador, are able to compete, to create jobs, to keep jobs in their home community. I can tell you that, as I said, the previous Member for Labrador West was telling me the other day that because of our initiative, the number of employees in his store has gone from thirty to sixty. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is good news.

The reality is that this particular initiative has created the chance to bring the business back from Quebec into our Province where it ought to be, where it creates real jobs and opportunity for our people.

So, I thank all members who support this particular bill, it is a good initiative. I want to make sure that the Minister of Finance gets the credit that he rightly deserves and the Premier for ensuring that this initiative has moved by.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Leader of the Opposition for understanding and knowing that this was an initiative of this government that was important to the people of Labrador West.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER (D. Oldford): The hon. the Government House Leader. If he speaks now he will close the debate.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I would just move - it is a great bill and I move second reading of Bill No. 36.

On motion, a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow.

MR. FITZGERALD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if you could stop the clock for a minute?

MR. TULK: Stop the clock! What for? We are not adjourning at five o'clock. There is no rush.

MR. FITZGERALD: Could I have leave?

MR. TULK: No. You will get a chance to speak now in a minute.

Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 27, "An Act To Amend The Financial Administration Act."

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Financial Administration Act." (Bill No. 27)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, what this bill does is enable the government to assume certain debts previously guaranteed by the Province under the Loan and Guarantee Act or any other act of the Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to thank him for the detailed introduction of Bill No. 27. Detailed introduction!

MR. TULK: When are you going to Florida?

MR. SULLIVAN: I am going next summer. Want to join me?

MR. TULK: (Inaudible)?

MR. SULLIVAN: Whenever. I am going when I want to go and I am booked. If you want the dates I will give them to you after.

MR. TULK: A good many rebates, if you go in March.

MR. SULLIVAN: I like to go on my own (inaudible). It might be a good time to go in February.

I have just a couple of points, to make sure, because I didn't get a very detailed introduction of the bill. For clarification: My understanding, I say to the Government House Leader, is that in cases, I guess, where under the Loan and Guarantee Act a Crown corporation may have a debt that is a Crown corporation debt, if that Crown corporation winds up - for example, Newfoundland Farm Products. That debt then that is on the books, when it winds up would have to be assumed by the Province.

I don't know if the Government House Leader is listening, because I would like to know the answer. My interpretation of that - I want to make sure it is correct with the government's interpretation; on the one wavelength - is that Crown debts now are carried under Crown and other agency debts. When one Crown agency is eliminated, it winds up, you have to remove the debt, like Farm Products now that is being sold; that any debts will be assumed by the Province and transferred back, and they shall be reported back within a specified period.

The nature of this bill, I say to the Government House Leader: Is it to deal with the Newfoundland Farm Products debt that was carried there, or are there other Crown agencies and other debts that have to be assumed?

MR. TULK: All debts.

MR. SULLIVAN: I know it is, but which specific ones now need to be dealt with, I ask the Government House Leader? I know it deals with all. That is pretty straightforward when you read the bill. I am just wondering: Which ones precipitated bringing this in now? Which ones are going to be dealt with within the period specified, I ask the Government House Leader? Apparently he is not listening. I would like to know that. I think it is entitled -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) answered in committee.

MR. SULLIVAN: Sure, that is fine. Or when you wrap up, if you know it now. If not, if you would check it out.

I will end with this question: Which ones are going to have to be reported within this time frame right now because of the implementation, basically, of this bill? Newfoundland Farm Products, I am assuming. If there are any others, I would like to have a list, whenever I get it, today or when we get to committee stage.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: If the minister speaks now, he closes the debate.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I move second reading.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Financial Administration Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 27)

MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, before I move the adjournment, I think I should inform hon. members that tomorrow we will start off with An Act to Amend The Professional Fish Harvesters Act - at that time, I am sure we will hear from the Minister of Fisheries - An Act To Amend The Provincial Parks Act, Bill No. 35; An Act To Amend The Teachers' Pension Act, Bill No. 29; and then we will move to An Act To Amend The Public Service Pensions Act, Bill no. 26, if there is time, Mr. Speaker.

I move the adjournment of the House until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.

On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Friday, at nine o'clock in the morning.