The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before we call the routine proceedings, the Chair would like to welcome to the gallery today, on behalf of all members, forty students from two Grade 9 French Immersion Classes at the Mount Pearl Intermediate High School in the District of Mount Pearl. They are accompanied by their teachers Mr. Ron Smith and Mr. Shane Fitzgerald.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to provide a brief update regarding the development and processing of the Voisey's Bay Nickel deposit.

In the summer of 1998, Inco indicated that they would prefer to have a mine and mill only in Labrador and that they would prefer to have smelting and refining done in some of their existing plants outside the Province. The government clearly stated at that time that there could not be any operation in the Province that did not include processing to achieve full and fair benefits for Newfoundland and Labrador, and negotiations broke off at that time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Even though negotiations broke off at that time, Mr. Speaker, two summers ago, informal discussions have been ongoing for several months to determine whether or not Inco would commit to full processing and, therefore, whether there was any basis to reactivate a full negotiation process. During this past summer of 1999, Inco has indicated a clear interest in developing the Voisey's Bay resource and I was requested by Cabinet to seek clarification as to their intentions.

I can confirm several things. First of all, Inco is seeking to finalize a proposal that entails full processing in this Province. They are preparing to formally propose for the Province's consideration a twenty-five to thirty year development plan in line with the recommendation of the Environmental Assessment Review Panel.

Secondly, Inco is also preparing to formally propose for our consideration a new, leading edge hydro metallurgical processing plant in Newfoundland and Labrador that will be the first of its kind in the world. They are also preparing to formally propose that the end product from the new processing plant will be nickel metal, the same product that is achieved through the traditional smelter/refinery technology.

Thirdly, Inco is hard at work on all aspects of a comprehensive proposal covering the full gamut of mining, milling - which is the converting of ore to concentrate - and processing that concentrate into nickel metal. We will continue to meet with them as required and provide updates if and when progress is made. Our next meeting is expected as early as next week.

However, I need to conclude with a couple of important reminders and cautions for all of us. The government and Inco do not have a deal. We have not received a formal comprehensive proposal from Inco. Until we receive such a proposal, we cannot determine with certainty whether we have the basis to resume full formal negotiations. In the meantime, we are more than willing to continue to work towards a comprehensive package that delivers full and fair benefits for Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: I am thankful, finally, that the minister has provided an update on the informal discussions that have been ongoing for several months, as he has indicated. We, in this part of the House, and as a party, have said consistently that the size and scope of the project is not necessarily the question, that we are completely open to new technology. What is at stake, and what is fundamental to this party and the Official Opposition, is that every ounce of ore be processed fully -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: - in this Province to its final state. In other words, that none of that, at any period of time, must be shipped out of the Province for further refinement. What is also interesting when the minister talks about the hydro metallurgic process - and Question Period obviously will provide an opportunity to get into this in more detail - is that this is a new operation, only one of its kind in existence. Obviously this operation proposed by Inco has to be different than what is in Goro, New Caledonia, simply because of the difference in the ore body. It is a new process that is being tested. Therefore, the question asked is: Is this a pilot plant or a test plant? That is the question that must be answered. If so, for how long will it be a pilot plant or test plant? What, in the interim between a pilot and test plant, will take place with the ore until a fuller process will be defined? Those are some of the questions -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. E. BYRNE:- that certainly we have, Mr. Speaker.

I will conclude by saying that those are just some of the questions that we will have. We will await a successful conclusion, hopefully, that will see all of the benefits promised to the people of the Province delivered to the people of the Province, and once we see that -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, by leave just for a moment?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. E. BYRNE: Once we see that, obviously both sides of the House will have the opportunity to say yea or nay to this prospective proposal and this obviously very important development.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We are very pleased to hear that some process is being made on a go-forward basis in terms of the development at Voisey's Bay in Labrador with Inco. However, I note in this statement - and obviously the details will become clearer as time goes on, but in the minister's statement and in any of the discussions that have taken place over the last while in this Province, I have not heard this minister or the government talk for one minute or one second about the issue of royalties. We know, from representations made to the Environmental Assessment Panel by Inco itself, that the return to the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, based on the existing royalty regimes, will provide $417 million to this Province and $5 billion to the Government of Canada.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: This is something that has to be brought forward and discussed in a current situation where we have still in place in this Province a ten-year tax holiday for profits for new mineral developments.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Today, I will be tabling Operation ONLINE's Annual Report for the fiscal period 1998-1999. This report was presented to me by Dr. Jack Botsford, president and CEO of Operation ONLINE, at their annual general meeting in August. I would like to welcome Dr. Botsford, who is joining us today in the gallery.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS KELLY: Operation ONLINE is a public/private partnership, which was established to advance and promote Newfoundland and Labrador's rapidly growing information technology industry. It is funded through the Canada/Newfoundland Agreement on Economic Renewal.

This past year has been an exciting one for Operation ONLINE. My department has worked closely with this board on a number of important projects aimed at developing key areas within our IT sector.

One of these areas is human resources. Operation ONLINE, working in partnership with Newfoundland and Labrador Association of Technology Industries and Human Resources Development Canada, helped to implement the IT Graduate Employment and Internship Program. This program addresses the industry's needs for specialized skills training and to develop opportunities for new IT graduates. Already, it has created 200 jobs for new graduates.

Operation ONLINE was also instrumental in helping our Province secure SoftWorld ‘98, the world's premier deal-making and networking event for the IT sector. The event drew a record of 775 delegates from around the globe and allowed our Province to showcase our innovative and dynamic IT industry to the world.

During SoftWorld ‘98, a Memorandum of Understanding was signed between this government, Sun Microsystems of Canada Inc. and Operation ONLINE. From that MOU, a partnership was created and Pivotal Networks was formed. This one-of a-kind facility in the world, officially launched in October, will allow companies to develop applications using the Java™ technology, network computing systems and related specialized applications. It will also help to further solidify our place in the global IT industry.

Mr. Speaker, I would also like to highlight several very recent accomplishments made by Operation ONLINE, which took place during the annual reports following the annual report's release.

Earlier this month, Operation ONLINE participated in SoftWorld ‘99, which was held in Vancouver. It was the site of several significant achievements for our Province's IT industry. Operation ONLINE signed a partnering agreement with the technology sector in Costa Rica to facilitate technology transfer, skills development, and give both regions access to new export markets.

The recently established Pivotal Networks also signed a deal at SoftWorld ‘99 with KL Group Inc. of Toronto, a producer of award-winning Java™ development tools. The deal includes the transfer of over $20,000 in software products from KL Group to Pivotal Networks. More importantly, it begins a relationship between the two organizations for product promotion, testing, and development.

Mr. Speaker, Operation ONLINE's Annual Report outlines many more of the organization's accomplishments over the past year. I would like to commend this organization for its dedication to developing our IT sector.

Information technology is a key sector in our provincial economy. Each year, it generates in excess of $500 million. We have approximately 200 IT businesses operating throughout Newfoundland and Labrador, and the sector continues to grow. With organizations like Operation ONLINE working to foster its development, I am confident that information technology will continue to be a major contributing industry to the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to thank the minister for a copy of her statement in advance, to welcome Dr. Botsford to the House today, and just to say to the minister and to Dr. Botsford that one of the largest sectors in Newfoundland, as the minister has said, has certainly been the IT sector. I believe it is a sector to which we should pay particular attention. If there has ever been a brain drain in the Province of Newfoundland, Minister, it has to be in the IT sector in this Province. We have seen a lot of our younger brains go out of this Province because they have been unable to find jobs in the IT sector in this Province.

I would say to you, as minister, and to the good doctor: Keep it up, and hopefully one of these days we will be able to bring all of these Newfoundlanders back to work and put them to work in the IT sector in Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to join with the minister and the Member for Conception Bay South in commending Operation ONLINE and its president and CEO, Dr. Jack Botsford, on his work in the IT sector in this Province.

We have here many innovative and creative ideas and brain power in the area of information technology. A number of them are know personally to me. We do have leadership in this area. The work of Operation ONLINE is certainly providing an opportunity for them to market their skills and to make sure that there are lots of jobs and opportunities in this Province for young people who are interested in this particular sector of the economy.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to update Members of the House of Assembly on the progress of the Cabinet Committee on Jobs and Growth, which began public consultations in October. We are undertaking a broad-based public -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: What was that?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: That came from a former House Leader, I tell the hon. gentlemen. He is now a judge in the Supreme Court, and he was a Tory sitting on this side.

We are undertaking a broad-based public consultation to renew the Province's economic agenda.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where were you sitting (inaudible).

MR. TULK: I was over there, doing a good job.

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to inform the House that to date we have heard from close to 200 individuals and groups. Upwards of 1,300 people have attended the public forums in Gander, Grand Falls-Windsor, Harbour Breton, Marystown, St. Anthony, Corner Brook, Port aux Basques, Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Labrador City-Wabush, Whitbourne, New-Wes-Valley, Clarenville and St. John's.

In fact, Mr. Speaker, public interest has been so high that we have had to add meetings in Gander, Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Stephenville and St. John's. In the St. John's area, four meetings have been added to our original schedule to accommodate all the people who want to make presentation to the Committee. We held an extra meeting in St. John's just last night and two more will be held on December 2 and December 9. Another will be held in Mount Pearl on December 8. We also extended our schedule to meet public demand for a meeting in Stephenville. That will be held on November 27, this coming Saturday.

The Committee has been hearing from people representing a broad range of sectors and interests. People are taking the process seriously, they are eager to participate, and we are getting constructive advice on how to build on our economic momentum and community strengths.

The jobs and growth consultation will continue this month and into December with a series of sectoral forums. These round-table discussions will engage key stakeholders in major sectors of our economy to explore their unique challenges and opportunities. Sectoral forums will cover the following areas: manufacturing, advanced technology industries - including information technology - fisheries, aquaculture, tourism, cultural industries, mining, forestry, agrifoods, and the petroleum industry.

As chair of the Cabinet Committee on Jobs and Growth, I want to thank all those who have made presentations to date and who have attended the forums. I also want to thank my Cabinet colleagues and area MHAs who joined with me and who have heard from so many people.

There is tremendous optimism for the future and this shows wherever the Committee has traveled. There is confidence among our people that we have turned the corner economically and that we are capitalizing on the opportunities before us. As our “friends” at The Globe and Mail recently reported, and I believe The National Post as well, the Rock is on a roll.

We are creating more jobs than ever before. Our economic growth rate is leading the nation. Investment is up. Exports are growing. Out-migration is slowing.

But we still have a way to go and we fully acknowledge that point. That is why the work of the Cabinet Committee on Jobs and Growth is so important. We will be reviewing carefully all the views, advice and suggestions we have heard and, after thorough analysis, use that input to move the economy of this Province forward even further.

The momentum is building and we must all work together to ensure that the momentum continues, to secure our future together.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

First of all, I am surprised the minister did not leave this for Sunday for the Premier to talk about in his Conversations with the Premier.

Certainly, we commend the people who went out to these meetings. This is nothing new. People have been consulted on these different things for years, I say to the minister, in consultations with the ministers over the years, in consultations with MHAs throughout their own districts and so on. People have some good ideas and there are entrepreneurs in this Province who have some good ideas, who want to move forward and create jobs. We commend them for doing that. It is a process that is needed.

Let's talk about the other part in this where the minister talks about the number of jobs throughout this Province. He is up bragging that out-migration has slowed but in fact, since the government uses graphs so often, they can look at this graph and see that that is not so. The truth is there is nothing to brag about. If we really want to talk about jobs in this Province, they should fill in a couple of other communities in their list right here and go back to them. Maybe they should listen to the phone calls that the rural members have been getting in the last few weeks about the lack of jobs in rural communities. The truth is, the reason for the lack of out-migration is because nobody else can afford to leave the Province. That is what is going on here.

As far as jobs go, again, maybe we will give a current example to the minister here today. As of 1:00 p.m. today several hundred people are meeting on the Northern Peninsula, in Plum Point, because of lack of jobs, I say to the minister. That is what people are talking about here today. While we talk about our good news review, the reality in rural Newfoundland and Labrador is of people in small town Newfoundland who do not have the jobs, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This government is very good at talking the talk. They have had consultations now on the Gulf ferry, on taxes, and now on jobs and the economy. When it comes to walking the walk I have a different concern. Where we have opportunities to create jobs and spend money in the Province, we should be doing it.

Recently the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation was very kind to give me a jacket that was being issued by his department in celebration of the millennium being used all over the world. It was very considerate of him to do that. Imagine my shock and disappointment to discover that this jacket was in fact made in Indonesia, where wages are kept low to attract investors. The minimum wage starts at $2.00 a day, and children as young as thirteen work ten hours a day in the factories of Indonesia.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, these are jobs and money that should be spent creating jobs in this Province, not supporting an economy somewhere else.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, that is walking the walk, not talking the talk.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Mines and Energy with respect to the possible proposal from Inco that he talked about in the Ministerial Statement today. In his Ministerial Statement he said: “[Inco] are also preparing to formally propose for our consideration a new, leading edge hydro metallurgical processing plant in Newfoundland and Labrador that will be the first of its kind in the world.” He also said in his Ministerial Statement that they are also preparing to formally propose a twenty-five to thirty year mining plan. I would like to ask the minister this. Is the hydro metallurgic part, or component of that proposal that is coming, a test plant or pilot plant? If so, how long have they proposed that test plant or pilot period be?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In the response that the Leader of the Opposition gave to the Ministerial Statement he indicated, in reference to this, that with respect to hydro metallurgy there is only one plant of its kind in existence in the world. Just to make sure that we have the information correct, the hydro metallurgic plant that is being proposed, or will be proposed, to Newfoundland and Labrador in a formal proposition from Inco at some point in the future will be the only one of its kind in the world. There is nothing like it anywhere else. The issues that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has been raising with respect to Goro, New Caledonia, Indonesia and other projects is a completely different kind of ore and a completely different end product than what we are dealing with in Newfoundland and Labrador. This is a made for and made in Newfoundland solution that Inco is looking at and trying to formalize a proposal.

At this point in time - because I am trying to let the House of Assembly be aware, as well as the people of the Province be aware - Inco is working very diligently at trying to put together a complete and comprehensive proposal to bring to the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador for its consideration. The very worse thing that could happen at this point in time is to try to now speculate about what might be in it, other than the things that we know for certain will occur. There will be full processing. That has been a question a year ago. Two years ago in the summer of 1998 Inco was saying they wanted to do no processing in Newfoundland and Labrador, and now they are saying -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: - they are committed to full processing. Mr. Speaker, they are saying that they are looking at a hydro metallurgic process. We will wait to see what is in the proposal before we can react to it and decide whether it is good, bad or indifferent.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, if I just may have leave for a second for points of clarification. This is an important issue. What I have referred to in terms of Goro, New Caledonia, is that they have a hydro metallurgic process involved there and obviously the ore is very different there. There is no question about that. The proposal that they are putting forward here obviously would involve variations that would not be any point of comparison. The point that the minister has not answered, and has not answered for some three or four days, is this. I will ask it in a different way, and maybe he can answer it that way. Does any part of the proposal that Inco are preparing to put forward - you must have some idea of it; certainly you would not make a statement today like you have made if you did not - does any part of that twenty-five year to thirty year plan involve a period of time where what Inco would be proposing would involve a test period or pilot period?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, I am glad to have the acknowledgment that there is no comparison between what is happening in Goro and what is going to happen in Newfoundland and Labrador in the future. Maybe, just for further information, with respect to the hydro metallurgic process, there are other hydro metallurgic processes active today in the world. There are some in Canada but they are not for nickel. We are talking about the first time ever for nickel from a sulphide ore, that is what Inco is looking at proposing for Newfoundland and Labrador. There are others already in existence in the world for copper and for other metals. There are hydrometallurgic processes functioning today in Cuba and Australia, so there are many hydrometallurgic processes functioning and working but there has not yet been one done for nickel and for the hard rock ores that come out of Labrador. That is what Inco is looking at trying to develop to present to us for consideration.

Maybe in answering the question, I might just like again to read from the statement. What I reported was that Inco is hard at work on all aspects of a comprehensive proposal covering mining, milling, and processing the concentrate into nickel metal.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister must conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: When we get the proposal, we will know whether there is anything in it with respect to the issues that the hon. member is raising.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: I say to the minister, enough of a history lesson in terms of the metallurgical process. I understand the process and I understand that this is a new body of ore. If you want to look at Goro, New Caledonia, Inco put a pilot test in place because they never - for the type of ore that is in Goro, New Caledonia - they put a pilot test in place. Similar to our situation, it was the first time that they tried that process on that type of ore body.

I will ask you again: In view of the fact that this is a new process being tried on this ore body, one of its kind in the world, has Inco proposed a pilot or test period for its development, yes or no?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Sometimes part of the history lesson is important. I just might add one other thing because, if I heard it correctly, in response to the Ministerial Statement, the Leader of the Opposition indicated that the length of the process is not of concern to the Opposition; they do not care about that. That the issue he wanted to deal with -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. GRIMES: We can all check Hansard tomorrow. He says the words, they end up being written in Hansard.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: He indicated the length of time, and how long the process is - because it is news and it is noteworthy that this is to be a twenty-five to thirty year project, not a six or seven year project where everybody scoops out the proceeds and goes on about their business.

That was a very big issue before the Environmental Assessment Review Panel. The government, on behalf of the people of the Province, proposed a longer time frame. The Aboriginal communities proposed a longer time frame. The Assessment Panel recommended it, and Inco is now indicating that they are willing to acknowledge and accept that should be the development plan.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: What is in the plan, we will find out when we actually get the proposal from the company.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to take his seat.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: It is pretty clear to everybody that the minister is not going to answer directly the question.

In response to his spin - because that is all it can be described as - in direct response to the Premier in this Legislature about a year ago, or some time ago, or even in public statements, I am not sure which, when asked directly: Would we hold Inco to the traditional smelter/refinery originally proposed? We said clearly for the record - to answer your spin - that we would look at any new technology as long as all the ore was processed here and as long as the life of the mine should (inaudible) proposed here. That is very clear.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister did not answer the question about a pilot project, and I think the lack of an answer is self-evident. I will ask him this question: In view of the fact that this is a new proposal, s he has talked about, will that now require a new environmental assessment or a new environmental study from the Province's point of view?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Again, I guess that maybe part of the difficulty is that the Leader of the Opposition does not listen or listens selectively. I was not referring to the fact that the Opposition has suggested that they were committed or married to any particular type of technology. I indicated that the Leader of the Opposition, if I heard him correctly, stated that the length of the project was not a matter of concern for the Opposition. That is what he said today.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: But we presented, on behalf of the people of the Province - because the original plan, if people will recall the part of the history lesson, is that Inco had talked about taking the ovoid and depleting it within six or seven years. So the issue as to length was extremely important.

MR. E. BYRNE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: I asked the minister, because this is a new process: Would there be further environmental studies requested?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I guess we are not allowed to set the record straight with respect to anything. I was getting to the answer to the question. The question as to whether or not there will be an environmental assessment required has nothing to do with the type of technology that is going to be used for processing.

If the hon. Leader of the Opposition would recall - and this is important, Mr. Speaker, and I think we should all listen to it - there was a court action taken by a group out of St. John's, friends of mining or whatever, that tried to have the environmental assessment for the mine and mill in Labrador stopped because they wanted to have the assessment for the processing plant included in the same environmental assessment. The argument that was rendered is that the mine and mill in Labrador have nothing to do with a processing plant.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

In fact, everybody understood that regardless of the type of processing that occurs, there is going to have to be an environmental assessment, whether it was going to be a smelter or a refinery two or three years ago, whether it is going to be a hydrometallurgic process. If you are going to build a major processing plant in Newfoundland and Labrador today, there is an expectation that there will be a level of environmental assessment required.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to take his seat.

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, have, we as a Province, gotten to a point to discuss what the royalty regime will be, first of all; and, if so, could you elaborate on that? Maybe it is not the Minister of Mines and Energy's job. Maybe it is the acting Minister of Finance's job to talk about that, but I will ask it anyway.

The second question is: Vis-á-vis royalties, what discussions have taken place with the federal government on the impact of equalization?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think it important for the record, and everybody will acknowledge, that the Leader of the Opposition now understands that the requirement for an environmental assessment has nothing to do with whether it is hydrometallurgy or any other kind of process.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. GRIMES: It is important, Mr. Speaker, because people tend to get very, very picky - and I make this point deliberately - people tend to get very, very picky about asking you about a specific word that you may or may not have said years ago or months ago, or some time ago, and is that the exact same word you are going to use today?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, let's make sure we are clear for the record, that when this issue gets debated at some later point when there is a proposal to talk about, that everybody would have understood that the official position of the Opposition -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, I ask the minister to get to his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that the official position of the Opposition is that they don't care whether this project is five years or thirty years. That doesn't matter to them. Secondly, that they didn't know -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to take his seat.

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I will ask one more time: Have there been any discussions on the royalty regime, first of all. Second of all, in view of the fact, if he can answer, obviously - well, I don't even expect it anymore but I will ask it anyway for the record, so the public can see that this minister will not answer any question put forward by any member at any time in this Legislature. The question is, again: Has there been any discussion about the royalty regime, the impact of that on equalization, and have there been any conversations or negotiations with the federal government on them relaxing any sort of period with respect to the equalization coming to the Province? Could the minister elaborate on that, please?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To finish the point, and to make sure that everybody knows that the Leader of the Opposition was not clear as to whether there would be an environmental assessment required regardless of what type of plant is going to be built - Mr. Speaker, just so that we know for the record - because I am sure there will be a debate about these issues later.

With respect to royalty and taxation, I am glad that the Leader of the Opposition asked the question today because it is an important question that Hansard will show that the Leader of the New Democratic Party has been asking in this Legislature for four years. Ever since Voisey's Bay was discovered, the Leader of the New Democratic Party has been asking, and now finally the Leader of the Opposition has done some research, looked in Hansard, and figured he had better ask a question just in case the Leader of the NDP doesn't get up today.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to get to his answer quickly.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Because the question has been asked: What about the tax holiday? As a matter of fact, the Leader of the NDP said today in his commentary that he wanted to know about the tax break. There is no tax break, Mr. Speaker, for Inco.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: It has been answered in this Legislature. Hansard will show at least fifty times that question has been asked and answered, because it is the question that belongs to the Leader of the New Democratic Party. I am glad that he asked it just in case he doesn't get recognized today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today, again, are for the Minister of Mines and Energy. I say to the Minister of Energy that the Grinch has come early this Christmas in the form of higher prices at the pumps for gasoline. Newfoundland motorists have had just about enough of these unexplained price heights and they are angry that their government is always inactive, seldom reactive, and never proactive in dealing with these issues.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: People in this Province, Mr. Speaker, feel like pawns at the mercy of price fluctuations that they do not understand and they feel are not justified. So I ask the Minister of Energy, what are you planning to do this time with respect to this very unacceptable situation facing the consumers of our Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I can only conclude from the tone and nature of the question that had there been a different result in the election last February - which thankfully there was not - and if that group were the government, then I guess they would have regulated gasoline prices. There is no question. I guess he will stand up now and tell us whether or not the position of the Official Opposition, that if they were the government today they would follow the only other example in Canada, which is Prince Edward Island, and regulate gasoline prices - because this is a serious issue - despite the fact that there has been a full study of the issue done in Newfoundland and Labrador.

There has been a full study of the options done. As a matter of fact, Mr. Browne did the study, the person who has been the consumer advocate in a number of cases and well known in the Province. Despite every bit of study and every bit of representation, the advice given to the government, whether they were the government - and thankfully again I say they are not - or we were the government, is that regulation is not the answer.

We are having another process that is reaching conclusion now where we have further empowered the Government Monitor, which was recommended and has been in place for a couple of years, to change the order in process of price increases and price fluctuations.

Mr. Speaker, the government is on record through the independent monitor to say that the price increases that occurred in Newfoundland and Labrador, like last summer, are too high and not justified, but there is no mechanism - and when the group opposite were the government, they used to be asking the same questions by members on this side and they gave the same answers, that regulation is not the answer. The market will dictate.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I say to the minister: Won't he confirm that the real reason government is silent, and always silent on this issue, is that it actually stands to gain from the price hike, Mr. Speaker? Not only is more than half the price of gas actually in taxation, and not only is three-fifths of that amount in provincial taxes, but this government's ad volorem tax policy means it gets more taxes every time the price of gasoline goes up.

I ask the minister: Why won't he admit his complicity on this issue? Why won't he do something about the high levels of gas taxes gouging Newfoundland consumers?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I must admit that in the year that I have been Minister of Mines and Energy one of the first issues I was confronted with a year ago in December was gas price increases. It was an issue, again, in which we pointed out quite honestly and frankly and openly to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that the fundamental reason - and the hon. member just asked about it - why gas prices are a little higher in Newfoundland and Labrador than they are -

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. GRIMES: Yes, just a little. You can make the comparisons anywhere in the country. Never mind trying to sensationalize the issue. The reason they are a little higher in Newfoundland and Labrador than in other jurisdictions is because we tax at a higher rate on gasoline. I have said that consistently every time for a year.

The Opposition, I guess, would now suggest that not only should we have cut income taxes more, not only should we have cut out the surtaxes, not only should we be giving everybody everything they want no matter what they ask for and whether it could be afforded, but we should also now remove the payroll tax, get rid of tax on gasoline, have no sales tax, have no income tax, and have no money.

Mr. Speaker, we are making choices and decisions -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to conclude his answer.

MR. GRIMES: In fact, Mr. Speaker, the issue of gasoline taxes and other taxes is dealt with annually in the budget. We are now aware of the fact, everybody is, that there will be income tax reductions in Newfoundland and Labrador. Whether or not there will be gasoline reductions will be seen later.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: I say, Mr. Speaker, if we could tax the natural gas from this minister, we would not need any more taxation!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Several weeks ago the Minister of Finance and the Premier of this Province, in a press release and before the cameras, indicated some measures to alleviate the tax burden on Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

In view of what is happening today and in view of the fact that significant dollars on every fill-up of a tank of gas is in the form of taxation, why won't this minister and his fellow ministers and this government show leadership, do something about the tax consequences as a result of tax and, in fact, implement a policy today which reduces gasoline tax in this Province or deals effectively with the HST consequences?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Actually, I share the sentiment expressed by the Member for St. John's East, that if in fact they could tax some of the hot air from this building maybe we could reduce some other taxes. Because there is lots of it from all sides and all parties I guess when the debate ensues.

It is a serious issue and as I have indicated before, and as I have spoken to the groups with respect to gasoline pricing, both in Central Newfoundland and here in St. John's, it is an issue the government has to decide how many places you can reduce taxes. We have chosen, because we think it has the greatest immediate impact, to reduce income taxes in a realistic, achievable fashion for the foreseeable future.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance, in every budget annually, decides and reviews on all other levels of taxation. So the recognition from the monitor with respect to gas prices, is that since the price of crude has more than doubled in the past six or seven months some increase in the price of gasoline is justified. We have said this time, just like we said in the summer, that we think that the companies are gouging. We think that they are increasing the price too much, that it is not warranted, that some increase is warranted -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to take his seat.

MR. GRIMES: - but the solution, as to tax changes, will have to wait for another point in time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Health. Minister, there is an estimated shortage of at least fifty doctors in numerous communities around this Province. In cities like Corner Brook, for example, sick people cannot get a family doctor because practices are not taking on new patients. In fact, I spoke with a disabled person from Corner Brook within the last couple of days who was experiencing this very same problem. Six doctors have left Corner Brook and were not replaced. Four have left Clarenville. They are three short in Bonavista. The list goes on and on all over the Province.

The measures that the minister has taken in her department to fill the void falls far short of what is needed to attract doctors. I want to ask the minister: Are they currently now preparing a proposal to address this very serious problem?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

MS BETTNEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Government has been working very hard over the last year or more to try and address the issue of physicians in the Province. We have been working diligently with the various health boards across the Province to try and resolve this issue.

Over the past year we have invested very significantly in order to enhance our Province's ability to recruit and retain physicians. Our efforts continue and we will certainly proceed with those and try and work closely with the boards until all of the vacancies and all of the gaps that have been identified can be resolved.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Most salaried general practitioners in this Province get paid considerably less than other provinces. The new government in New Brunswick just instituted a $6.8 million program to attract rural doctors. They increased salaries for everybody by $20,000. Now they are giving grants up to $40,000 for doctors to go to rural areas of the Province.

I want to ask the minister this. Is the minister concerned now that other provinces that are placing greater emphasis on recruitment and retention are going to lure even more doctors away from Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, over the past year the government, as I have indicated, has invested very significantly in salaries as well as in other efforts to attract and to compensate physicians who are here. There was $32 million that was provided in the MOU with the Newfoundland and Labrador Medical Association last year. I believe that that ranks with probably the highest salary increase of any other person in this Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Education.

Minister, conflict of interest has been a problem that has plagued, especially trustees, over the last number of years, really since the act was introduced. Will the Minister of Education bring a bill to the House this fall to amend the schools act so that school board trustees can vote on issues affecting the schools their children attend?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, it is good news. The question is: Why is it taking so long?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member would be aware, there has been a number of rulings of late with respect to conflict of interest in the legislation. We had three rulings with two different interpretations of the act. Essentially what we did was said that rather than continue with the confusion and have this go back to court, we decided to move and move quickly.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is also for the Minister of Education. The minister will know of the importance of the high level of poverty in this Province and the number of school children who go to school hungry. Is she also aware that contracts signed with caterers in schools in our Province have exclusion clauses that prevent school lunch programs from being brought into those particular schools? Will the minister indicate her position on that matter and whether she is prepared to take action to prevent private corporations from having clauses in their contracts that prevent school lunch programs from their schools?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, we recognize that there is an issue in this Province with respect to poverty and children going to school hungry. There are a number of reasons for that, not the least of which, of course, is the fact that some parents just cannot afford to provide breakfast for their children, while for any number of other reasons children may end up going because they do not have time to have breakfast. Where we have the lunch school program in place or breakfast programs for that matter, we are very appreciative of all the support that we have gotten from the corporate sector, and certainly the money that government puts into this program.

There is a business out there. We are under obligation, and with respect to the contracts that we have with these caterers to, in fact, not allow the lunch programs into the schools. That is an agreement because we have the private sector in the schools providing the food.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, in addition to preventing school lunch programs from occurring in schools, the schools are relying on kickbacks from these contractors to buy essentials for schools, such as paper and chalk. Will the minister put an end to these practices and ensure that there is adequate money for school supplies in this Province, that there is adequate opportunity and, in fact, a full School Lunch Program so that every schoolchild in Newfoundland and Labrador can go to school with a full belly and be able to learn properly in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member opposite is aware of kickbacks that are taking place in the system, as he calls them, I would suggest he table them for the information of all of us, so that we can look into it.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Motion 4.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services to introduce a bill, “An Act To Amend The Physiotherapy Act”. (Bill 36)

On motion, Bill 36 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, Motion 5.

Mr. Speaker, let me, if I could, just say that these are first readings - Motions 5, 6 and 7.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, “An Act To Amend The Financial Administration Act”. (Bill 34)

On motion, Bill 34 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods to introduce a bill, “An Act To Amend The Forestry Act”. (Bill 35)

On motion, Bill 35 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Environment and Labour to introduce a bill, “An Act To Amend The Occupational Health And Safety Act”. (Bill 33)

On motion, Bill 33 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, second reading of a bill, “An Act To Amend The Registered Nurses Act”. (Bill 27)

MR. SPEAKER: Which order is that?

MR. TULK: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, Order 8, “An Act To Amend The Registered Nurses Act”.

MR. SPEAKER: Order 8. This is the adjourned debate on this bill?

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise again today to say a few words on -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: I am asking leave of the House - and we will no take any of the hon. member's time - the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology had originally indicated in a Ministerial Statement that she would table a report, a statement -

MS KELLY: An annual report.

MR. TULK: An annual report. I wonder if the hon. gentleman would allow us to revert to that and then come back to his speech without cutting into his time?

MR. SPEAKER: We are reverting to....

MS KELLY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

It is agreed that we revert to Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees.

The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology.

MS KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would just like to table the Annual Report, 1998-1999, of Operation ONLINE, as I indicated in my Ministerial Statement.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to say a few words on Bill 27 but, before getting into the nuts and bolts of this particular bill, I have to refer back to Question Period today when we saw a display and a charade put on by the Minister of Mines and Energy.

It is no secret that there is going to be a leadership convention. There is going to be a race for the leadership of the Liberal Party that will soon be brought forward here, that we will all soon experience.

As the minister was getting up, trying to answer the hard-hitting questions put forward by the Leader of the Opposition, I could not help but wonder what kind of chaos we would be in in this Province if this member, this minister, ever gets to sit in the Premier's chair.

I understand that he is the front-runner. I understand there is a lot of support over there for him, but all I can say is: God help Newfoundland and Labrador. I would much rather see you there, I say to the Member for Twillingate & Fogo, than I would to see that member; because I would like to live here in this Province and I would like for my family to be able to live here.

Mr. Speaker, if that minister ever becomes Premier of this Province, I will be the first one over in Port aux Basques waiting for the ferry out. I will be the first one gone.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. FITZGERALD: I would have no other choice. Can you imagine the chaos that would be caused?

MR. GRIMES: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER(Smith): Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, could I have some kind of assurance that he will live to the word that he just said about leaving, more so than the candidate for the Progressive Conservative Party in Exploits who promised to do the same thing if this government was re-elected he would leave Newfoundland. He is still in Bishop Falls. He said he would leave. I offered to pack his bags but he is not gone yet.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who?

MR. GRIMES: Gonzo. Gonzo promised to leave too. You just promised to leave. Maybe the two of you can get on the same boat.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: I don't know about Gillingham, but I can tell him he can take my promise to the bank that I will be gone.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. FITZGERALD: I will be gone. There is some competition, there is some hope over there. There is competition. It will not be a cake walk, it will not be an easy walk; there will be other people over there.

AN HON. MEMBER: John will be your legal advisor.

MR. FITZGERALD: I am not sure what is happening with the Minister of Fisheries. The Minister of Fisheries announced his candidacy months ago when he had a piece in the paper.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: I realize what I just did. It is a promise.

MR. TULK: You just got about ten more caucus members to go to work for Roger.

MR. FITZGERALD: I doubt that. I think he has them all anyway, I say to the Government House Leader.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) I would miss you. I wouldn't want you to have to leave.

MR. FITZGERALD: I think you will run, and I think you might have a very good chance of winning, I say to the minister. It will be a boring time in this House, but thank God I will not be here to witness it - by my own choice, I say to the members opposite, because I will be out of here.

Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words on Bill 27, An Act To Amend The Registered Nurses Act. A couple of days ago when I stood here, I talked about having a free vote in the House of Assembly. I talked about if there was a free vote permitted. If we were to elect a person in this House of Assembly who we would like to see as the Minister of Health, and who would do a good job heading up the Department of Health and Community Services, if there was a free vote, and everybody could vote in their own secret way, I would say the House Leader of the Official Opposition would win that vote by three to one right here in this Chamber. There is nobody -

AN HON. MEMBER: For what?

MR. FITZGERALD: For the Minister of Health and Community Services. If there was a free vote, a secret vote, there is nobody who would dispute the man's ability. There is nobody who would dispute the man's integrity or the man's knowledge of this particular department. I do not know of anybody else who would even come close to the Member for Ferryland.

I would like to refer again to health boards. I talked about, and we have talked about in our Blue Book, of doing away with health boards, doing away with health care boards as it relates to the present structure. Now the minister goes out and appoints health care boards at her own whims and wishes. I remember been in a meeting and one of the particular health care members said that nobody knew his political affiliation. All it takes is the call of an election and it is not hard to see some of the people the minister has appointed to those health care boards. How can they function, I say to members opposite? How can a health care board function when you go out and you appoint somebody as your representative to serve them on the health care board?

When I heard somebody say the other day that the health care board should not meet with local nurses, they should not meet and discuss local problems that exist in local areas, that that should be his job, to meet with nurses and to try to solve problems, it made me wonder what the health care board was all about, or why we even need them. If they are the representative of the area that they are appointed to, then you would think that when they come to the table and bring forward discussion they would bring forward the wishes, views, problems from the area that they serve and represent. If not, we might just as well go out and nominate people from a community and say that is it. We may as well nominate them all, in my particular case, from Clarenville, where it would not cost anything for them to travel. They would be right there where the hospital administration is and it would not cost us any money to allow the health care board to meet or come together; they would not even make a long distance call.

What a way to have health care boards. What a way for somebody to say that your health care board should not be there to bring forward the problems that exist in the area they represent. I always thought when you go and elect - which I think should happen - or you nominate health care boards that they would represent the area from which they came. If you had a problem, or the nurses had a problem, or the doctors had a problem, or if there was a problem within that health care institution, then you would go and consult your board. You would know your board members, you would meet with them and allow them to bring forward your concerns, wishes, and problems, take them to the board level and solve the problem.

That is why we have those problems, I say to members opposite. Somebody should sit down with the local administrators and with the health care boards and say: This is what we expect. These are what your duties are. If you want to serve on those boards, then you make yourself available and you listen to the people you are supposed to represent, and bring them forward to the table. We are talking about volunteers. I know that. People serve on those boards and they do not get compensated, they do not get paid, and we should be thankful that they are there. I know all about that. If we are going to have people there, then for God's sake, let's make them representative of the area they are from and the area they serve.

We have been having a major problem down in the District of Bonavista South, which I represent, with the situation whereby we have the Golden Heights Manor there. It is a first-class facility. It is a seniors' home. It has seventy beds and there are sixty beds filled. There are ten other beds that were created by renovations. I suppose if you are going to go and do renovations - I think there was something like $2.1 million spent in doing renovations to the old section of Golden Heights Manor. In doing those renovations there were ten extra beds created. Those rooms were furnished, the beds were put in, the night stands were put in, the rooms were wired and painted, the tiles were put on the floor, the beds and mattresses put in, and the doors are closed.

I have had numerous conversations with the minister. I've put I don't know how many pleas forward to ask if some of those beds could be opened. I put forward the plea that we should not have to have fifteen or twenty people - because the minister's argument is always: There aren't enough people, Roger, on the waiting list for us to open those ten beds. I have been saying: Minister, if there is one person on that waiting list who meets the qualifications to enter into the Golden Heights Manor, and there is a demonstrated need there for it, then we should open one bed.

If there is nobody there, nobody expects the beds to be opened and staff hired with nothing for them to do. People come in on a casual basis. Nobody has any problem with that. We should not have people working if there are not things for them to do. We should not have beds open if there is not a need.

I say to members opposite, how do you answer somebody who calls trying to get their mother or their father or a relative into the Golden Heights Manor and you have to say: I am sorry, but there aren't enough people on the waiting list to allow that to happen. What a feeble answer. That is what I find myself doing, I find myself saying what the minister is saying, but how can you justify it? That particular need, the need for that one person, the need for that one bed to be open, is just as great, I say to members opposite, as if there were fourteen there. While we have those ten beds there and if there are ten people on a waiting list, the ten beds should be open. If we have one person on that waiting list and if there are ten beds there open, open the one bed. You do not have to bring in rules and regulations where you would go out and hire two more people in order to open ten beds because you decided to open a bed.

I don't know, maybe I am all wet. Maybe I don't understand the situation. If government is so cumbersome, and if the Department of Health and Community Services is so high tech that all the beds have to be open or none of them have to be open, then it is time for us to settle back and look at what we are doing or how we put forward priorities. It is no big thing.

In fact, the staff down at Golden Heights Manor have come to me, and have gone to the minister, and have even said, in trying to respond to this particular need: We are willing to make concessions on our union agreement. They say: We are willing to look at doing things differently than our own union agreement states in order to get some of those beds open and in order to respond to the need that exists here in this community.

I have had the minister down to my district on at least two occasions. I know that some community activists put on a demonstration down there for a couple of hundred days straight, right up to Christmas Day last year, to try to get the minister's attention to look at the need at the Golden Heights Manor in Bonavista. I think they have been very fair in dealing with the government and the Department of Health and Community Services. They are not looking for anything that they would take back themselves as far as extra jobs go, or as far as creating more employment, or as far as making people who are now temporary full-time. They are saying: If you open the beds in order to respond to the need, Madam Minister, we will provide the care with the resources that we have.

No, we still have not been getting through to the minister. The minister still turns her back and says: While there are ten beds there and while it costs us $2 million in order to create those ten beds, we are not going to open them because your waiting list is not long enough. It does not matter about the one senior who needs to get into the Golden Heights Manor. It does not matter about five seniors who want to get into the Golden Heights Manor. You have to show the minister that there is a demonstrated need, that there are probably fourteen or fifteen who have been on that waiting list for two or three months, in order for her to respond to get some of those beds open. That is shameful, I say to the minister.

When you see people in the community who pick up the need - it is not union workers that say we want this done. It is not people who stand to benefit from some form of activity in that particular institution who say that we need this done. For the most part it is community minded people who know what the Golden Heights Manor has to offer, know the need in the community, and have come forward and said: Hey, there is something happening here. Why do we have ten beds closed? Why do we have ten beds, ten rooms, fully furnished, put here in this facility...? They can respond to the needs by just going and putting some bedclothes on the bed. That is all that is needed, I say to members opposite. Pillows and everything are lying in the beds and the doors are closed, but because we have not reached the levels that the minister said must be reached, because the waiting list is not long enough, somebody's mother, somebody's father, somebody's relative is sitting at home now suffering. Because the minister in her wisdom has decided not to allow some of those people to go to the Golden Heights Manor and receive the need and the care that they deserve as our seniors. That is what is happening out there today.

The minister in response as well says: It costs a lot of money to open some of those beds, but what we are going to do is we are going to provide home care. We are going to provide the funding available so seniors might stay in their own homes. There is nothing wrong with that concept. I know a lot of people that would not think about going into a seniors' home, whether it is the Golden Heights Manor or whether it is some other seniors' home. They do not want to go there. They want to stay home, and for the most part the family would like to be able to look after them in their own home, if that is their choice.

What we do is there is a pot of money that is made available to be provided for home care. The sad part about it is that while the minister do not want to open the seniors' beds at places like Golden Heights Manor, while she says that she is going to make home care available - it is all good stuff - but the problem is that there is no money there. The budget is gone. Unless somebody passes away, unless somebody actually dies, there is nobody else in the eastern region of this Province who will receive home care. That is where the budget is.

Every hour is allotted. I can tell you stories that will make your hair stand up on what people are going through in trying to look after seniors and the disabled in their own homes. In fact, it was only the other day that I had a lady down in my district and I went and helped her celebrate her one hundredth birthday. Do you know what her plea was on her one hundredth birthday? Her plea was that she would be allowed to receive some money for home care so that she might be able to live with her daughter. A lady who celebrated her one hundredth birthday - I went there and I read messages from the Queen, I read messages from the Prime Minister, from the Premier of the Province, from the MP - and her plea was: That I might be able to remain in my own home. Her daughter was willing to look after. Her plea was for home care. I am getting calls from her daughter and I am getting calls from her family. Right now, she was fortunate enough to get twenty hours and that came about three weeks after her one hundredth birthday.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) a day or a week?

MR. FITZGERALD: Twenty hours a week, I say to the member.

AN HON. MEMBER: A week?

MR. FITZGERALD: Twenty hours a week is the maximum is that she has been able to access. This is a lady now who for the most part - well, she is one hundred years old. I can guarantee you that she needs help at home. She has her wits about her, she is capable of making her own decisions, and she has made her wish. Her family wants to allow her to have that wish acknowledged and the wish is that she be allowed to remain in her home.

Those are some of the things that we should be looking after. While we see the minister get up and we see the Premier get up and the Government House Leader and talk about how well we are doing, we are moving along, the exit of people have stopped, there are people working, there is some money now on the go, we are reducing income tax -

MR. TULK: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) the hon. gentleman. I have to say to him I do not mind him standing there and giving the correct information, but in way have I ever said, and I will not until it happens, that the out-migration has stopped.

MR. SPEAKER: No point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, while we see the Minister of Finance get up and talk about how well this Province is doing and it is doing so well that we are going to reduce income tax and we are going to look at doing other things to take money out of the treasury of this Province, I say to the ministers opposite, and I say to members opposite, that there is a great need out there that needs money now. You might say: You fellows have all the answers over there. You talk about doing away with the payroll tax, you talk about doing away with something else, and here you are today, Member for Bonavista South, talking about how bad things are in your district.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: By leave, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: Leave!

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, I say to members opposite - I do not need leave, there are other people here that can bring forward arguments and examples just as well as I can. I am going to say it to you, Mr. Speaker, and I am going to say it through you, Mr. Speaker -

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Is leave withdrawn?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. If he doesn't need it, leave is withdrawn.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Leave has been withdrawn. I ask the hon. member to take his seat.

MR. FITZGERALD: There is a great need there, and I ask that the people of the minister's office respond to the need and provide the care that is needed in this Province today, especially in rural areas.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Because the Government House Leader today gave I think his second or third Ministerial Statement in the last couple of years - he is not known to give great numbers of statements - in the House, I wanted to quote from it. Because he said: “...there is tremendous optimism for the future...,” and he said: “We are creating more jobs than ever before. Our economic growth rate is leading the nation. Investment is up.”

When I awoke this morning and was on the way to my early morning fitness classes at about 6:30, I was listening to CBC radio. CBC radio had a lady on from the Burin Peninsula. This lady was talking about health care in her particular family. Yesterday in the House the Member for Ferryland, the critic for the Department of Health and Community Services - and doing a tremendous job with that - brought to government's attention the situation relative to Mrs. Dimmer of Fox Cove. Fox Cove is a little community on the Placentia Bay side of the Burin Peninsula. Mrs. Dimmer did not present a picture this morning of somebody who has a tremendous optimism for the future. Indeed, Mrs. Dimmer told the tragic story of her husband and her family, and what has happened to him as he battles with his illness and as he progressively declines in health. Also, now having suffered a stroke, how he has been admitted to the Burin Peninsula Health Care Centre in Salt Pond, Burin. Now that he is ready to leave the hospital she finds she cannot take him home anymore. She would need twenty-four hour care. She cannot get that. Indeed, they have told her that he will have to go to a nursing home.

On the Burin Peninsula there are two nursing homes. One is located in St. Lawrence and the other is located in Grand Bank. Both of these homes are very familiar to me. At various times I've had members of my family in both of those places, and I can say to you that the care given there is very good.

Mrs. Dimmer tells the story of how when her husband, who is sixty-six years old, goes to the nursing home - not in St. Lawrence where she would prefer but in Grand Bank - she finds that all of his income from his pensions will go with him. That means that Mrs. Dimmer, at fifty-six years old, will have to live on social services. Having been a housewife all of her life, and having taken care of her family, now at fifty-six years old she is told that there will no share of her husband's pension coming to her. In fact, we know that the pension income of the person who was admitted to a nursing home goes with that person. Unless the family has a lot of money, then the person who is left to live in the family home finds himself or herself in a destitute situation. Now this is totally, completely, unfair.

There is something wrong when we tell a lady at age fifty-six that she has to live on social services until she gets to age sixty; all because her husband, who was older, has suffered a tremendous decline in his health and all of his income from his old age pension, from his Canada Pension, will go with him.

As a matter of fact, there is one little correction that I could make to the story that was done this morning and the interview that was done on CBC, because the impression was left that somehow the $125 which will be given to Mr. Dimmer would indeed be given to Mrs. Dimmer. That is not correct. That is not what really happens, because the $125 that would be taken and given to Mr. Dimmer, this would be used for his personal care. This is what he would have to buy his ordinary toiletries out of, and these kinds of things that you need for personal care when you are living in a nursing home. Therefore that $125, even that, does not go to Mrs. Dimmer. I find the contrast in that person's situation, with what the minister said in the House today, to be somewhat overwhelming. When we hear the minister today say there is tremendous optimism for the future, I would only say that I wish I could tell that to Mrs. Dimmer.

This morning when this lady was interviewed, she was crying out for changes, crying out for someone to say: Would somebody please listen to me? Would somebody please help me? Would someone let me have some dignity? Would somebody reach out and say: Yes, you deserve a share of your husband's pension because this pension was earned in the family while he was working and while both of you were together as one family unit.

For Mrs. Dimmer - it is nice to talk about the growth rate, it is nice to talk about increases in GDP, it is nice to talk about the fact that out-migration is slowing down, it is nice to talk about the roads that we have pave, and all of these things, but for this lady she has fallen through the cracks.

We can talk as well about other factors in health care. The night before last, I attended a meeting in Mount Pearl. One of the ladies there had been a nurse in this Province and recently she was so frustrated with the nursing situation in Newfoundland and Labrador that she quit her job on the Great Northern Peninsula. She resigned. She said: I cannot work in this Province any more. The workload is so high. It is not what I want for my son and myself.

She has applied to move to Alberta. Here is a lady who is in her early forties, I would suspect, who has had a fairly distinguished career in the nursing profession in this Province, and who has decided that she will have to move out of this Province because of the working conditions that nurses have to endure day after day.

She told me about the attractive package she was offered in moving to Alberta. In fact, she is taking up a position in Jasper, Alberta. For that nurse, all of the somatic changes we are making here today mean very little.

We on this side have no objections to the amendments to the Registered Nurses Act, certainly not. These changes here are important, I am sure. They are changing the name of the nurses association to include the fact that Labrador - that in the future they will be known as the Association of Registered Nurses of Newfoundland and Labrador. We have no objection to that but we cannot let this opportunity go by without addressing some of the situations in health care.

I said that this lady is so frustrated that she is moving out of the Province. She is joining so many others. When this government brought in Bill 3 last spring and they said: We will not let you have binding arbitration; we will force you to go back to work under severe penalties - well, you know, many nurses in this Province have invoked the ultimate sanction; and that sanction is the one where you walk away. You do not just walk away from the bargaining table; you walk right out of the profession or you walk right out of the Province.

This nurse said to me, the night before last: I do not want to work in Newfoundland and Labrador any more. I have a job in Jasper, Alberta, and my son and I are leaving on December 4.

Mr. Speaker, that is what is happening. That lady is only one of many who have said that if you do not treat us fairly, if you do not give us dignity, if you do not be fair to nurses, if you do not provide a better focus on patient care, if you do not go and address the issue of casualization in a meaningful manner and you do not provide a fair and equitable wage and benefits package, if the Premier and the government do not live up to the commitments that they made just on the eve of the last election, if they do not deal positively and constructively with nurses and their issues, then these nurses are going to take the ultimate sanction. They are going to leave Newfoundland and Labrador altogether. That is what is happening.

I only bring that up because this is a part of the issues that face our nurses in this Province. I will say as well that I have heard some positive things lately. I will just make a point of saying that some of the recruitment that is now being done - I do understand from one of my contacts that there are indeed some nurses going to come back. That is good news, but there are still far more who are moving out.

It is no surprise to any of us who were here last spring. We saw the nurses in the lobby of this building day after day, night after night. When I stood here and looked around and saw the galleries full of nurses, I saw nurses crying in their seats when we passed Bill 3. There was no great big cry from the nurses in the gallery, but we could see and we all knew that many of them cried their way out of this Legislature.

I notice that the Minister of Government Services and Lands is making wisecracks across the House when I am talking about the nurses. I would like the people of Labrador to note that, while I am talking about a serious issue of nurses not being treated properly in this House last spring, the minister of the Crown who sat in Cabinet and said: Okay, beat up on the nurses, force them back to work - today, when I am talking about the nurses' issue, he is making wisecracks across the Legislature. Mr. Speaker, that is the problem. Nurses have to be treated seriously. They have to take their issues seriously. It is not a time for any minister of the Crown to be making wisecracks across the Legislature, when the issue of nurses is so important and fundamental to our Province.

I am sure that the people in the Labrador district he represents will be very disappointed at his conduct and his belittling of their frustration.

I want to mention as well, because I do have some personal experience within my own family, the great and tremendous work that is being done by nurses in our hospitals. Over the last number of years I have had, I guess, the duty to be at 4 North A and 4 North B at the Health Sciences on many occasions, because of a family member who has battled with cancer. I have seen some of the tremendous work being done there.

I can tell you that since 1996 I have walked practically every square foot of the fourth floor of the Health Sciences Complex from time to time. I know what it is like to know when a simple little thing like the ice machine breaks down on the fourth floor. How long does it take to fix an ice machine on the fourth floor? Nine months it took.

I say to my health critic, when you are undergoing chemotherapy and other cancer treatments, cold water and ice -

MR. SULLIVAN: What hospital?

MR. H. HODDER: At the Health Sciences.

MR. SULLIVAN: I was at St. Clare's and the same thing. The machine was broke for weeks.

MR. H. HODDER: For many weeks, I would go the Ultramar station on the top of Ruth Avenue and Old Placentia Road, in Mount Pearl, and pick up a bag of ice - buy it myself - and take it into the Health Sciences Complex. Many of the patients there would say to my family member: Has he arrived yet with the ice?

That is shameful, that it would take nine months for a simple little thing, to have the ice-making machine repaired on the cancer ward.. That is really what happened.

MR. SULLIVAN: I know people who needed ice pans for their surgery, after surgery, with replacement surgery and things, that were needed to keep down swelling, and there was no ice there. I remember one trip to a place on St. Clare Avenue to get ice.

MR. H. HODDER: I am noting as well the comments being made by my colleague, the critic. He is mentioning, and I will mention for the record, the fact that he has had experience with St. Clare's Hospital, and the fact that simple little things like the ice-making machine at that hospital have not worked from time to time as well.

MR. SULLIVAN: I don't know if it is working even today, and that was months ago.

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I can speak on many other issues connected with health care, but I want to return for a moment to the issue of collective bargaining. If we are really to begin to address health care in this Province, we have to start to address the issue of collective bargaining.

It was shameful the way that this government treated the nursing profession last spring. I have an article here, published in The Telegram on April 10. It is entitled - it names the Premier by name - and says: He makes a shame of collective bargaining.

Mr. Speaker, when we force people to go back to work, as was done with the nurses, it is counterproductive. We know that the nurses were frustrated, and we know that the government was frustrated, but the answer was not to force them to go back to work.

As a matter of fact, we know as well that there was in existence at that time an alterative. There was in existence an alternative to the back-to-work legislation. As a matter of fact, the Public Service Collective Bargaining Act provided a remedy. It said that the nurses could have accessed the binding arbitration route. However, the government chose not to treat nurses with respect and give them that particular alternative.

Let me read from the article of April 10 in The Telegram on this very issue. It compares the anti-union legislation of Premier Brian Tobin with the arrogant anti-union legislation of his political predecessor and mentor, Joey Smallwood. It talks about the legislation that broke the IWA strike in 1959, and makes a comparison between what happened in 1999 with what happened in 1959.

Mr. Speaker, certainly I well remember the 1959 incidents and the debate. I was finishing high school at that time. I do remember teaching in Central Newfoundland shortly thereafter, and what the feelings towards the government were in Central Newfoundland in the aftermath of what happened.

It is sad when a government chooses to issue such draconian rules and pass such an overpowering, arrogant, anti-union legislation as happened in 1959 in Newfoundland and Labrador, and happened again in 1999.

What the article goes on to say is that it draws into question the very right to collective bargaining by public sector employees. If the bargaining process ends and a collective agreement is dictated by the employer, it is nothing more than a sham.

In other words, the message to nurses, the message to members of the RNC, the message to other public servants, the message to the wardens, the message to everybody who works for the government, is: We will bargain with you as long as you agree with what we say. But, if you happen to have a different opinion, if you happen to go and you want to have some of the things that you want in your collective bargaining process, it doesn't matter whether you are a warder, whether you are a nurse, whether you are a public servant in this building, a teacher, whoever you are, the governments' attitude is: Well, we will only bargain with you as long as you see it our way.

That certainly is not in good faith. It makes a sham of collective bargaining.

Part of the problem that we have today in this Province with the nurses moving out and the collective bargaining process effectively dead - the collective bargaining in the public service of this Province has never, ever been weaker than it is today. Certainly we have seen some evidence of that in recent weeks, and particularly in recent months.

We know that there is a prediction nationally that there will be shortages of nurses. We know that our nurses are moving towards the United States. As a matter of fact, of the forty-one nurses who graduated in this Province last year with their Bachelor of Nursing, only one or two of them found work in this Province. I haven't got the complete up-to-date data on that, but as of a little while ago practically all of them have moved out of this Province to find work. Certainly, when the other Provinces are offering very, very attractive packages to the nurses, we can only expect that more and more of our nurses will move on.

I refer as well to other articles that have been written about collective bargaining in this Province. I note that the Minister of Fisheries is moaning and groaning. He is at least showing some signs of life.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: If a nurse were here, she wouldn't have to go over and test him. There he is now; he has woke up.

When we are talking about nurses, the Minister of Fisheries again joins his colleague in the Cabinet who, a few minutes ago, was making some very negative remarks across the House. Again, we are talking about nurses. It is sure evidence that the government feels very, very guilty about what they did with nurses last spring.

The government should feel guilty about what they forced their own backbenchers to vote for. There were backbenchers on the Liberal governments' side last spring who could barely deal with themselves for having been told in caucus: You have to support the Cabinet. You have to stand firm. You have to get in there and you have to vote to force those nurses back to work.

Mr. Speaker, I know some members in the back benches on the government side who said to me: I don't feel very happy about doing this, but you know our system works on solidarity. They were told that they cannot show any weakness. They cannot show compassion. They have to stand there and when the vote is called - and when the standing vote was called here, every single one of the members in the back benches were told by their Cabinet colleagues: You have to stand up and you have to vote to order the nurses back to work.

That is the way that side of the House operates. What happens here is that the Cabinet, the people who make the policy decisions - we all know how it works, but on this particular issue, the issue of Bill 3 last spring, caused so much anxiety, caused so much embarrassment, there were members in the back benches who did not want to go home to their districts. They were reluctant to go home to their districts because they did not know how they were going to face their own supporters, face their own colleagues, and have to say: Yes, we had to force the nurses back to work and we were forced to vote for Bill 3.

That is the issue that we have to look at in this Province.

In conclusion -

MR. FITZGERALD: You are not finished yet, Harvey. You are not finished yet, you are making too much sense.

MR. H. HODDER: I say to my colleague from Bonavista South, I listened to him talk about the needs of the Bonavista Peninsula and the needs of the people in his district. It is shameful that we would have, in Bonavista South, a perfectly, well-organized, structured nursing home, and we have closed beds.

I could refer to the comments made in this House on many occasions by my colleague, the Member for Conception Bay South. He talks about the private care homes in his district, and how we do not invest sufficient money to look after our seniors who have to live in private care homes. I do believe that the Member for Conception Bay South probably has more personal care homes in his district than any other district in the Province. He is very, very knowledgeable on the struggle that those people who own those homes have to endure every day, day after day, trying to provide a sensible and reasonable, compassionate and kind, level of care for the seniors who live in their home.

We can do a lot more for our elderly. We can do a lot more for our nurses. When we talk about, as the Government House Leader did today, talk in very glowing terms about how great it is, how wonderful it is, and how we have such a promising future, I just say to the Government House Leader, I wish that some of that enthusiasm could indeed be shared by some of the seniors in Newfoundland and Labrador who every day struggle to make ends meet, struggle to maintain themselves in their own home, and the nurses who say that they want to have a respect, a dignity, they want to have the government focus on patient care, and if they do all of that, then we will have a much better health care system in Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. GRIMES: (Inaudible).

MR. H. HODDER: I note for the record that, as I talk about health care, the Minister of Mines and Energy calls across the House with personal comments, attacking me as I stand up for nurses, as I stand up for seniors, as I stand up for people who want a better deal -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: - as I stand up for the person who is down and out; as I try to represent what every member in this Legislature should represent.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. H. HODDER: The Minister of Mines and Energy looks across the House. He attacks the messenger. He does not deal with the message whatsoever.

MR. SPEAKER (Oldford): Order please!

The hon. member's time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave!

MR. H. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, that is standard for the government and we hope that they will, sometime in the future, see the error of their ways.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave!

MR. SPEAKER: No leave.

Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Treasury Board.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to respond to my hon. colleague the Member for Waterford Valley.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MS THISTLE: No, debating Bill 27.

I would like to say to hon. members that Bill 27, An Act To Amend The Registered Nurses Act, is a very positive one. I would like to go back to some of the things that my hon. colleague across the way has talked about.

I have to say, on behalf of government, that we had a hard decision to reach last April, but since last April we have done many things to enhance the lives of nurses in this Province. I'm sure all of you assembled in this House today know how much government has invested in enhancing the lives of nurses, and all those who work in health care all over this Province. We are hearing that conversions are steadily progressing. In fact, 125 new positions are now almost complete, and $2.3 million has been allotted to convert 540 casuals. I think all of us who watched t.v. over the past months have seen how hard it is to actually make those conversions, looking at an application file of about 26,000 applicants, all applying in rotation for 540 casual nursing positions. Of course, on top of that we were able to provide $4 million for support staff, and these are the people who assist nurses in their line of duty.

My hon. colleague across the way had just mentioned that this government is not doing enough for seniors. I must say, I do take exception to that. Just last summer my hon. colleague the Minister of Mines and Energy and myself had the pleasure to turn the sod for a $10 million facility in Grand Falls-Windsor to house our seniors. In fact, we have many facilities for our seniors, and most of the Carmelite residents will be levels 3 and 4.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: So we are saying to hon. colleagues in this House that we do make provisions for our seniors, and that is only one of the ways that we have been doing that. In fact, we have announced $250,000 million in improved health care facilities.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where?

MS THISTLE: The Health Care Corporation of St. John's site redevelopment; new hospitals, Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Stephenville, Port au Port, St. George's area, Harbour Breton.

I had the pleasure of going to Harbour Breton a few weeks ago with my hon. colleagues on the Jobs and Growth consultations, and that was a surprising visit, I will tell you. What a beautiful facility in Harbour Breton. Do you know what I discovered? I had the privilege of attending six of those Jobs and Growth consultations, and I will tell you I really got a surprise. All those presenters were so positive, people were so professional in their approach to presentations. They had an upbeat feeling about the economy in general. The ideas that sprung forth from those Jobs and Growth consultations were amazing. There were things that we had not heard of before.

When you say, you know, you are traveling all over the Province, hearing from people, instead of making a decision for people behind closed doors, it is amazing what you will find out when you are traveling all over the Province. People will come forward with ideas. Not only ideas that will not work, but ideas that are natural to where they live. We saw a lot of proposals that I know Minister Tulk will work on over the winter. Many of those have things attached to them that will generate good wealth for this Province.

I have to tell you what has been happening since 1997 for new funding for Health and Community Services. We built a multipurpose facility for Grand Bank -

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MS THISTLE: What is that?

AN HON. MEMBER: We are on track (inaudible)

MS THISTLE: On track. Where? Fogo? Yes, I am sure the Member for Twillingate & Fogo will be pleased to tell you that everything is on stream and on track. More like on track, I guess, in the centre of Fogo. We have announced a new facility for Fogo Island and Bonne Bay, and planning for the needs of the hospital in Clarenville. The list goes on and on. We are addressing health concerns all over this Province.

In fact, it was only two years ago that we had a need come forward for dialysis in Grand Falls-Windsor. Do you know what has come out of that need? We are finding that we have increased the population of Grand Falls-Windsor. Some people are actually moving in -

MR. FITZGERALD: That is because Ray Hunter got elected. That is the reason why people are moving into (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: I do not know about that now, because Ray Hunter is probably going to move out.

MR. FITZGERALD: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: It is improper for a member of the House to refer to a member by their name. They should refer to them by the district that they represent.

MR. SPEAKER: I remind the minister that it is a valid point of order.

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, I must apologize to the Member for Windsor-Springdale. I am so used to calling to him by his first name. We are close associates. In fact, he is one of my constituents and I know quite well that he voted for me on February 9, 1996.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS THISTLE: I tell you, I believe it was his vote and all his family that put me over the top February past.

MR. GRIMES: He has only asked to cross the floor three times so far, and we will not take him.

MS THISTLE: Yes, in fact, I think he has strong leanings to the Liberal Party, Mr. Speaker.

MR. GRIMES: Three times he has asked to cross the floor and John Efford told him he isn't getting over here.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: Mr. Speaker, let the record show to the residents of Windsor-Springdale that the current member is going to be continuing to be working and running for the PC Party.

Anyway, we are on health care today. I would like to tell you how well health care in working in this Province. About two or three years ago we had a long list of people wanting to get into the senior home facilities. Since we introduced the single entry system most people that want to occupy one of our institutions can do so in a matter of about thirty days.

I want to tell you what else was spent in health care over the past few months. Forty-seven million dollars was invested for health and community service boards; there was a new community health centre for Old Perlican. Do you know something, Mr. Speaker? We visited Labrador City and Wabush on the Jobs and Growth consultations. We were not met by any angry nurses. I believe the nurses out there understand the pressure that is on government's budget today, and they also understand that we are working with nurses to try to resolve some of their issues.

Some of the proposals that my hon. colleague, the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal, will be working on over the winter will be surprising when they actually get submitted for policy and also get submitted for approval. We have some enterprising people out there who are willing to come forward with ideas. In fact, we even had young people - every Jobs and Growth consultation that we went to - we had young people come forward who needed no money from government, who just had good ideas only and all the wherewithal to make sure that they were instituted.

AN HON. MEMBER: Why didn't you have a meeting up in Plum Point?

MS THISTLE: Plum Point? I don't know but I am sure that my hon. colleague, in his deliberations, will have an answer for you on that one. We have added locations to the list since we started. In fact, my hon. colleague said today that even Stephenville is going to be added to the list and there is going to be -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: - meetings there on Saturday. When you get a cross-section of over 1,300 people attending those economic conferences, you know people are interested.

I have to tell you what is happening in the District of Grand Falls-Buchans that makes the economy so positive. About two months ago, I had the opportunity to go to an opening of a new building for Toromont Cat. Toromont Cat has just started up a new business in Grand Falls-Windsor and -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: I don't know, I cannot explain why you are not there. I cannot explain that, but I can just tell you that I was there and the Minister for Mines and Energy was there as well.

In fact, the Town of Grand Falls-Windsor has had a bumper year. Almost every week this summer we have had the opportunity to cut ribbons at new establishments. Grand Falls-Windsor is a service centre for about 75,000 people.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: I will tell you, when the fishing business is good, communities like Grand Falls-Windsor do well.

My colleague, the Minister for Fisheries, who is reporting a bumper year, already over $900 million in fish landings. In fact, I would say he is going to reach the billion dollar mark. When the fishing industry is good, even urban centres like Gander, Grand Falls-Windsor, Corner Brook, Clarenville, Marystown, all of those places do well because people have extra money in their pockets that they can go out and spend. That is what contributes to the economy overall in this Province, but there is a different feeling out here.

When my colleague, the Minister for Finance, a few weeks ago announced a tax decrease - you know, we had Chambers of Commerce all over the Province support that initiative long before it was announced. We also had the Board of Trade, business people, and people all over the Province saying they are looking at it from this stance: that a tax deduction is a pay increase. No matter how you cut it, a tax deduction is a pay increase on your cheque and everyone who pays income tax. A tax deduction is a pay increase.

That pay increase from a tax deduction does not stay in my pocket and it does not stay in your pocket. If anybody has any extra money to spend, they are going to spend it. You just check all around this Province and ask the hardware stores what was happening this summer. Most times you cannot get the second tin of paint because they are running out. You ask Newfoundland and Labrador Housing how much money they are putting out in RAP. People are repairing their homes; hardware stores are busy. Ask the car dealers. When I was in the banking profession, the two biggest indicators of the success of the economy were car sales and housing starts.

MS S. OSBORNE: Do you know why car sales are up? The roads are so bad, everybody got the daylights (inaudible).

MS THISTLE: We have the best road in the country - drive from St. John's to Port aux Basques - the best Trans-Canada Highway we have ever had. It is a delight to drive over the Trans-Canada Highway.

Now there is one exception, the Member for Windsor-Springdale would say, and I would have to agreement with him. There is one section of the Trans-Canada Highway from Badger to South Brook that needs to be redone. I will agree with the Member for Windsor-Springdale on that. However, generally speaking, from St. John's to Port aux Basques it is a delight to drive over the Trans-Canada Highway. It is a delight to drive over that road.

MR. J. BYRNE: Do many nurses drive over it?

MS THISTLE: Oh, I would imagine they do, and they do go into...

However, as I was saying, people who have extra money in their pocket to spent, people who pay income tax, disposal income will be spent. It might be spent on fixing up homes. It might be spent on buying RSPs. I read in the paper a few days ago that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians contribute less to RSPs than any other province in the country. Now, a lot of the reason might be because they have been traditionally tied to a fishery. Also, a lot of people have been traditionally tied to government jobs, where their pension is looked after, but as the economy improves - and we are on that improvement track right now - people will save more and they will spend more, a combination of both. I don't think there is anybody in this House who can say, when they look around at their districts - particularly you would notice it more in rural districts than urban districts, there is a boom going on.

I think it was only a few days ago that somebody from The Telegram said, as they were driving to work, they had not gone two or three blocks but they could rack up millions and millions of dollars worth of expansion here in the city alone. I will tell you, that is happening everywhere. Look at the new homes being built in rural Newfoundland. Look at the new homes. Look at the new cars in the driveway. You know, more people lease cars today than take out bank loans to buy them. That is why the banks are so anxious to have things changed, to change the insurance act and so on, because they want to be a financial supermarket like everybody else.

A good indicator of the economy is how people are spending money. You just look at the car sales around this Province. You do not see too many old cars on the highway. Even though a former Minister of Works, Services and Transportation made changes to the motor vehicle act so that it would not be necessary to have your car inspected, you can look around this Province, look on the highways - pay particular attention when you are driving on the highways - there are not too many old cars on the highways. That is a good indicator of how the economy is going. Just look at the coach lines; they cannot keep up with the demand. In fact, they have moved into Nova Scotia to pick up the tourism traffic and bring it over here.

I had the opportunity this summer to go up on the Northern Peninsula and I was surprised when I went to check out of the hotel the next morning. I said to the girl on the counter: Gosh, you are pretty busy here. She said: Don't be talking, we had to turn away sixteen couples last night. She had to turn away sixteen couples. They had to drive from St. Anthony right back to Rocky Harbour - no room at the inn. That tells you a lot of things.

We had a bustling summer in tourism here in this Province. I know; I stayed at a good number of bed and breakfast establishments because I wanted to find out myself, firsthand, what people were saying when they visited a bed and breakfast. What did tourists want to find here? Were they pleased with the services? How could we improve the services?

In fact, in Grand Falls-Windsor we are trying to develop a tourism package where we can have people stay two or three nights instead of coming in on the bus, going over to the drugstore and then taking off again the next morning. We have been working hard with communities all around in the Exploits Valley to try to come up with a package that would convince people to stay for two or three days so we can get a share of those tourism dollars, instead of having to move outside in some of the other well-known attractions around the Province.

In fact next summer the community of Millertown, which does not even have a population of quite100 people right now, will be celebrating 100 years.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: Ninety-odd.

They will be celebrating 100 years in the year 2000.

AN HON. MEMBER: How many live in Millertown Junction.?

MS THISTLE: Oh, I know how many live in Millertown Junction - just cabin owners.

In fact, I had the opportunity a year ago to travel the Gaff Topsails, and I had a look at the quarry site where quarrying went on years ago. It was one of the most interesting sites I have ever seen.

MS KELLY: I can confirm that.

MS THISTLE: My colleague, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology, accompanied me. We had a welcome day. I was thinking to myself, as I was driving along that trail way, what a wonderful tourist attraction. It is just basically pristine and totally undiscovered. There is so much to see in Newfoundland and Labrador. You just fall in love with the Province every time you get out of the city and have a look for yourself.

When you think about the celebrations, a little, tiny community in Millertown - first when I went up to the Millertown festival, I could not get over what I saw. The fire department had bought tarpaulins at Canadian Tire. This is how people work in a small community. They had bought tarpaulins and the woman - their wives, partners and spouses - sat at a sewing machine in the fire department in Millertown and actually sewed all the tarpaulins together. It was to be a roof and walls to cover over the concert area. It was almost as big as this House of Assembly. It was such an amazing thing for a handful of people to do. When I went up there and walked inside, oh, my gosh! I said: I cannot believe that a few people were able to put off such major event.

A lot of the people in Millertown are senior citizens. It is amazing what they were able to do. They use that Millertown wildlife festival to almost pretty well look after the running of their fire department for the whole year. I will tell you, their fire department is pretty well-equipped. They have a pretty industrious community of people.

If you go up to Buchans - a while ago, the Premier and myself had the opportunity to open up a new school in Buchans, a $3 million school, so that children from Buchans, Buchans Junction and Millertown will have the latest - in fact, the very latest - when it comes to good education facilities in this Province. You know what is different about that school? The fact that, after the school closes in the afternoon, we can leave that school open, one part of it, so residents of the three communities can come in and sit down to a computer, and they are already hooked up to Internet services. They have a library there that everybody can use, and they have a gymnasium that everybody can use.

That is what is happening around this Province. We are building smarter, we are doing things wiser, and we are making more use of public facilities.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: At one time, a school was generally used for school activities only. Now the community uses the school, and why shouldn't they? That is what should be done.

Yes, we have invested heavily. We have invested heavily in health care, very heavily in health care. In fact, since 1997 there was $10 million from the National Child Benefit reinvested in programs for families and their children; $6 million for Meditech financial and statistical information systems in the Labrador Peninsulas and western; $1.3 million for implementation of the new Youth, Child and Family Services Act, services for sixteen-year-olds and seventeen-year-olds; and $900,000 over three years for Provincial Tobacco Reduction Strategy.

I will tell you, when I was elected three years ago, almost four now, we started off with a budget in health care for $900 million. You know, that is gone now to $1.3 billion almost. So, when you say there has not been any investments in health care, I think you had better think again. In fact, there has been a $32 million Memorandum of Understanding reached with physicians all over this Province.

We are attempting to close the gap on physician salaries in Atlantic Canada. At the beginning of negotiations we had 195 salaried physicians, and during 1998 and 1999 this increased by thirty-three; seventeen GPs and sixteen specialists. Not only that. The 1999-2000 budget provided funding to recruit an additional thirty-five salaried physicians. So, we are moving forward in health care. We are moving forward in a lot of initiatives around this Province.

Just recently, I had the pleasure of attending another opening in Grand Falls-Windsor for a physiotherapy and wellness operation in Grand Falls-Windsor. I think that brings to three, the private facilities for physiotherapy alone in Grand Falls-Windsor.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: Well, I have nothing to do with the invitation list. I just receive invitations and I gladly attend because I am proud to attend.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS THISTLE: Now, if you would like for me to make a call on your behalf, my colleague from Windsor-Springdale - it might be because you are busy or I guess you are attending to your district and other parts of the district, but I am sure it is entirely up to the people who open these establishments and own these establishments who they would like to invite.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS THISTLE: I have nothing to do with private enterprise. I am just pleased when private enterprise decide to open up a new facility.

In fact, a computer firm - the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology today announced the ONLINE success that has been going on. Well, one of the businesses that has been reaping that success is a new computer firm in Grand Falls-Windsor called DPSI. They started out in the community college with about twelve people employed. In fact, now they are moving out to new facilities and they have expanded their workforce to twenty-eight.

Do you know something? That happened because one of our economic development officers went to SoftWorld ‘98 here in St. John's. As you know, there was a lot of networking done. Sometimes you hear a lot of criticism spent on money sending people here and there all over the country, and you wonder sometimes if we are going to reap the benefits from that.

Well, here is a classic example of where money spent on economic development is working. In fact, since that company moved to Grand Falls-Windsor, that same economic development officer just went to Vancouver at SoftWorld ‘99, and that was the conference that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology just referred to in her Ministerial Statement. Since that, he has made another contact and it looks quite likely that we will be able to attract two more businesses to Grand Falls-Windsor from those initial contacts.

In fact, those businesses complement each other. Computer businesses and information technology companies, they breed - one that comes - they always like another partner because one attracts the other one.

AN HON. MEMBER: They cluster.

MS THISTLE: In fact, they cluster. Not only that, but with five private colleges in Grand Falls-Windsor we are now able to have these colleges designed and teach and produce a program that will be applicable to those computer companies. Can you see the benefits of bringing in a company like that to an area that has not worked or lived or produced or set up there before? It can only mushroom. The indirect benefits of having a company like that is probably five to one.

What I am trying to say is that there is a feeling of optimism all over this Province, and with the initiatives that this government is bringing forward on a daily basis it will only grow. There is a positive feeling all around. I know all of us that walk through our districts every week can sense it. I can.

Before the Minister of Tourism came in, I was telling this hon. House how busy it has been this summer. I had the opportunity to actually stay many nights in bed and breakfast establishments for the first time and I was very impressed.

MR. SPEAKER (Smith): Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MS THISTLE: In closing, Mr. Speaker, I would like to tell hon. members that this is a wonderful time to be a part of this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is 4:19 p.m. Let me write that down, because I would not want to belabor the point.

I am very pleased today to have an opportunity to stand and say a few words on Bill 27. I listened attentively, I say, to the President of the Treasury Board's comments and the bright picture she attempted to paint of what is happening in Newfoundland and Labrador as it relates to the investment of money into health care. Indeed, it makes you wonder. If everything is so bright in many places, why are so many concerns, so many problems and so many issues being raised in this House on a daily basis? If everything is so glowing in health care, in rural Newfoundland and in the minister's eyes, why does the Member for Ferryland have to be on his feet every day raising concerns and issues in this House related to health care in this Province?

I listened to the President of Treasury Board as she talked about spending $2.3 million on converting 540 casual nurses to 125 new positions. I mean, that is a paltry amount. They are doing that since last April. Last April that process started and it is not finished yet. According to the President of Treasury Board, there are 26,000 people in the application file. There was $4 million for support staff, I say, Mr. Speaker.

MR. EFFORD: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: I will get back to the leadership campaign in a minute, I say to the Member for Port de Grave.

Four million dollars for support staff, $10 million, according to the President of Treasury Board -

MR. TULK: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: Pardon? Does the Government House Leader have a problem?

MR. TULK: No, I have no problem.

MR. MANNING: I will give you the opportunity to have a word, if you want to have it.

MR. TULK: No, I do not want (inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Okay, alright then.

Mr. Speaker, I ask for protection.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. MANNING: I am here trying to make a few points about the health care in this Province.

MR. TULK: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: I would rather talk to you outside the House, I say to the Government House Leader.

I am here trying to make a few comments on the health care in this Province and I am getting attacked by the Government House Leader. Mr. Speaker, I would ask for your protection. Thank you.

If I could get back to the comments of the President of Treasury Board as they relate to health care, the minister said there was $4 million for support staff, $10 million in Grand Falls-Windsor for a seniors' home. She was so happy to stand on her feet and say they are spending $250,000 on hospital development and health care facilities in the Province. She named places like Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Stephenville, Port au Port, Harbour Breton, Bonne Bay, and needs are being addressed in Clarenville.

I ask the President of Treasury Board, when she drives home does she pass the hospital in Gander? Does that trigger anything in her head, I ask the President of Treasury Board? You are after using the hospital in Gander in three elections now.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: I cannot hear you.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible) saying?

MR. MANNING: He does not have the stomach to come over here and say it, I say to the Member for Port de Grave. If you have something to say -

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: Pardon? I cannot hear him. What did he say?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. MANNING: I say, Mr. Speaker, I am having a really tough problem with the Government House Leader. He seems to have something on his mind.

I am trying to get back to the glowing report that the President of Treasury Board tried to give this House today as it relates to health care in the Province. Millions of dollars are being spent on health care in this Province, but then you have to ask yourself why we have a place like the U.S. Memorial in St. Lawrence that has forty beds, and ten have never opened. Then we ask ourselves why hospital beds are closed up all around this Province.

I can remember back when a former leader of this party campaigned on the fact that they would be opening up hospital beds. We will not close hospital beds. We will be opening them up. Still, when the time came, when this government got the power, what did they do? They closed up more and more beds. They are closing up hospitals now, let alone saying beds. They are closing up hospitals. They talk to this party then about bed closures. They talked about sending people home, medically discharged, people who should be in the hospital.

The President of Treasury Board talks about Fogo being on track. When posed a question, she says Fogo is on track. All I can say is that in a lot of people's minds Fogo is not on track. It is overspent, over budget, over estimate. I say it is a concern that this government has yet to address.

Safety on the roads is a concern that the President of Treasury Board raised. It is the best road in Newfoundland, she said. One of the best roads in Canada we have here in Newfoundland. I ask her, isn't that a health issue? Indirectly, that is a health concern, the roads. When they were putting the double highway through Grand Falls-Windsor safety was a concern. I believe the Member for Port de Grave was the minister at the time, when they put the double highway through Grand Falls?

MR. EFFORD: Yes. I was the Minister of Transportation.

MR. MANNING: Yes, you were the Minister of Transportation.

AN HON. MEMBER: Why did you do it?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: Hold on now. The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation -

AN HON. MEMBER: You put a Berlin wall up. Took up the track and put up the wall.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. MANNING: I am trying to make a comment. When the Member for Port de Grave was the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation and was responsible for highways in the Province he came and put a double highway through Grand Falls-Windsor. The Member for Port de Grave put in a double highway through Grand Falls-Windsor. He considered safety to be a major concern. That is my own belief in those actions at that time. Why, I ask then, did the government change its mind when it came to the people out in the Whitbourne area? Safety was not a concern with those people, but it was a concern when the Member for Port de Grave was the minister. It was a major concern, and he took care of that concern by making sure that safety stayed priority number one in relation to putting the road through Grand Falls-Windsor. I applaud the minister. I applaud the minister at the time, the Member for Port de Grave, for making sure safety was the number one concern.

Now we go back to Whitbourne, and safety is not the number one concern any more. They would not put it up out there. They would not put a double highway out there. So you have to ask yourselves sometimes about this flip-flop way of doing policy with this government. It is a major concern for many people. There are major concerns with road safety in the Province that the President of Treasury Board touched on.

The Member for Bellevue seems to be in a daze. Are you okay? The Member for Bellevue seems to be in a daze. No, you can sit down, I say to the Member for Bellevue.

I say, with all due respect to the Member for Port de Grave, that he put safety first when he had to deal with the road in Grand Falls-Windsor. I ask the question once again: Why wasn't safety a concern out in the Whitbourne area when it was a concern in Grand Falls-Windsor? Policies change, ministers change.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Whitbourne. (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: There you go. I would like to know what the Member for Port de Grave would have done if he had to be Minister of Works, Services and Transportation when it came to the highway in Whitbourne. I would be interested to know would he have put safety first there also. He nods his head in agreement and I believe him.

If the present Minister of Works, Services and Transportation had to be minister at that time, I know that man and I know he would have put safety first, but the Minister for Municipal and Provincial Affairs now, who was the Minster of Works, Services and Transportation, he was out of control when he got there. He did not care where the road (inaudible), like the cow paths of the old days. Wherever it dropped that is where it went. I say to you that safety was not a number one concern with the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

I want to get back to some of the comments that were made by the President of Treasury Board as they relate to health care in the Province. There are many concerns out there. It is very difficult to give a glowing report here on health care in this Province. I have some personal situations that I dealt with in health care in the past year or so. I will give one example.

The President of Treasury Board talked about $4 million in support staff, new buildings, bricks and mortar going up everywhere, and the names of communities I mentioned earlier. At the same time, in the first week of October my own mother had to be in the hospital and she had to stay over night. I went down to visit her in the hospital and I asked if there was anything I could get for her. She said: Will you get me a cup of tea? I went downstairs and I could not track down a kettle in the hospital. We have bricks, we have mortar, we have gyproc, we have paint, we have carpet, we have windows, doors, siding - you name it - and we do not have a kettle to get someone a cup of tea in the hospital. Then we get people standing up here talking a glowing report on health care in this Province when you cannot get a cup of tea? I say it is a shame that someone could not get a cup of tea in the hospital here.

I was down to St. Clare's - this is a personal situation - and I could not get a cup of tea. Then they talk about all of the money they are spending on health car in this Province and I could not get a cup of tea down to St. Clare's for one of my family members who was sick. A simple cup of tea, I say to the Member for Port de Grave. Down to St. Clare's hospital, 9:30 in the night, and I could not get someone a cup of tea.

MR. EFFORD: Why didn't you go down in the kitchen and boil the kettle?

MR. MANNING: No kettle!

MR. EFFORD: No kettle?

MR. MANNING: No kettle, I say to the minister, no kettle! Would you believe it? I say there was no kettle.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: If I had to know that I would have brought the thermos, I say to the Minister of Fisheries. I went down to the hospital to visit a family member, she wanted a cup of tea, and I couldn't even get her a cup of tea. When I went looking for a cup of tea - I have gone ahead of my story now - the girl sent me down the hall. I went down the hall. I went up the hall. I went around the hall. I went down on the next floor and did the same thing and I could not get a cup of tea. There was no kettle. There was no kettle in the hospital. Then you talk about bricks and mortar. Sure, if they had kept one of the bricks and brought in one kettle the lady would have had a good night's sleep, I say to the members opposite.

They talked about what we are doing here for people in our hospitals, but the patient never comes first. The President of Treasury Board talked about seniors' homes, and she talked about cutting ribbons at seniors' homes in her district. I say congratulations to the President of Treasury Board as she talked about seniors' homes in her district. It is great to see that government and private industry are working together in some cases. Private industry is doing it on their own in some cases. We are creating these havens, I would say, for our senior citizens; we have an aging population.

I ask the President of Treasury Board in all sincerity: What would be wrong with inviting the Member for Windsor-Springdale to a few of these ribbon cutting ceremonies? I know the minister doesn't want the member around too much but I think it would be nice. It is courteous. It would be common courtesy to invite the Member for Windsor-Springdale to some of these ribbons cutting ceremonies.

AN HON. MEMBER: Good idea.

MR. MANNING: He has to get used to it for after the last election and he want to know exactly what to do, I say to the minister. He would like to get used to cutting ribbons.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: I ask the President of Treasury Board -

AN HON. MEMBER: She brings her own red scissors, too, by the way.

MR. MANNING: She brings her own red scissors. She has red scissors. As President of Treasury Board, she is used to cutting.

MS THISTLE: (Inaudible) keep things in the black. I don't need red scissors.

MR. MANNING: She should have red scissors.

In all sincerely, it is great to have seniors' homes being built in this Province. We have aging population, especially out in rural Newfoundland. If we could only, once we get the buildings built, once we get the furniture in those buildings and beds in the rooms, then allow the people to get in the beds. Once we get the buildings built, the rooms there, the furniture in, the least this government could do then... I say to the Member for Waterford Valley, he was up and spoke early, a very eloquent speech, one of the finest speakers here in the House.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who?

MR. MANNING: After years of experience in municipal politics - the Member for Waterford Valley - for me, a young person like myself here in the House, I learn much from the Member of Waterford Valley.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: It is a joy to sit down and listen to something credible; it is a joy to sit down and listen to something that is factual, I say to the Speaker.

MR. FITZGERALD: Such a forceful delivery.

MR. MANNING: I say to the Member of Bonavista South, the Member for Waterford Valley has a way of getting his message across. He has done so for thirty years - twelve elections, I think, is it?

AN HON. MEMBER: Nine.

MR. MANNING: Nine elections in thirty years. He has gotten the message across to someone, I say to the Member of Bonavista South. I open my eyes and ears all the time to learn from the Member for Water Valley.

When the member was up talking, he talked about seniors' homes. He talked about people in his own family, who were in seniors' homes, and he talked about how important seniors' homes were. I want to echo that comment, because I believe it is very important that we take care of our seniors. I think it is very important that we invest dollars in our seniors, and I am glad to hear the President of Treasury Board talk about that also. Certainly I would not, in any way, shape or form, question the efforts of building seniors' homes in this Province.

Health care is a major concern. Why health care is such a major concern is that it affects every man, women and child in this Province. It affects everyone. Health care is a family concern, it is a community concern, and it is a provincial concern. Some of the people who are most vulnerable in all things when it comes to sicknesses are our children.

Yesterday - we did not celebrate - we just recognized child poverty day in Canada. It was great to finally have recognition for such a very important concern that is not only within Newfoundland but throughout the world and Canada, as we spoke on it yesterday - child poverty.

It amazes me that you could go throughout this Province - we hear of the Committee on Jobs and Growth going around the Province gathering the good news, spreading the good news. So did John the Baptist. Going around the Province talking about how great a Province we have, thanks to this government, that is what this Committee on Jobs and Growth is doing.

I say we have, in many ways, a great Province. There are things that are positive that are happening in this Province that I am proud of as a Newfoundlander and as a member of this Legislature; but there are a lot of concerns out there that, for some reason or another, this government had the blinkers on. Do you remember the blinkers they used to have on the horses, holding (inaudible), to keep the sun out of their eyes, to keep the sun from shining in their eyes? They used to called them blinkers, and I say that the blinkers are on some people on the opposite side of the House.

AN HON. MEMBER: Blinders, not blinkers..

MR. MANNING: No, out in our area we used to call them the blinkers. You can call them what you like out in Cape St. Francis. You can call them what you like in Whitbourne. Out on the Cape Shore where I come from, we call them the blinkers.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: No, the blinkers over there -

MR. J. BYRNE: They have the blinds down over there.

MR. MANNING: Yes.

Mr. Speaker, many members on the opposite side of this House have gone further up the scale. They don't wear blinkers, they wear blinders. They are blind (inaudible). I say to the Chairperson of the Committee on Jobs and Growth, as he travels around this Province, how come there wasn't a meeting held in Plum Point? Four or five meetings here in St. John's. I have to admit, in St. John's things are running pretty good, a lot of people working in here, a lot of new housing going on. There is a lot of activity here in St. John's - but it is out in rural Newfoundland. I say to the Chairperson of the Committee on Jobs and Growth: How come you didn't have a meeting in Plum Point?

Go up there this week and have a meeting. They had a meeting up there today on jobs and growth. I ask the Government House Leader to go back on his own side of the House. The meeting was all about no jobs and no growth, concerns by the people up in the Plum Point area that this government has turned their back on them. They have their blinders on when it comes to what is happening in rural Newfoundland.

There are a lot of concerns out in rural Newfoundland that are not being addressed by this government. Look at the list of communities that the Committee on Jobs and Growth visited, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: You have to bring back (inaudible).

MR. MANNING: No, I am sorry, boy, it flew away. Can't happen.

Mr. Speaker, I say in all sincerity, we have many concerns out in rural Newfoundland now. I have to give credit that - I know what is going on, on that side of the House. Everybody on this side knows what is going on. There are people vying for positions.

I say to the Member for Port de Grave, as I said here the spring, and I say again - and, to be honest with you, I don't get a lot of support on this side of the House for what I am about to say but I stand my ground on the fact that I believe I am out among people - I talk to people - that there is a major shift over there in what is going to happen after Mr. B leaves. Everybody knows

Now there is a leadership race on, we all know. The Member for Bonavista South touched on it today; and, for some reason or other... When we were here this spring, there were six names on the ballot - six.

AN HON. MEMBER: Six? Who were they?

MR. MANNING: Hold on now. There are six name. The Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs is on the ballot.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: Hold on now, I am talking about this spring. This is the spring session. There were six people on the ballot from that side of the House. The Minister of Municipal Affairs was on the ballot; the Minister of Tourism was on the ballot; the Minister of Finance was on the ballot; the Minister of Mines and Energy was on the ballot; the Minister of Fisheries was on the ballot, and the Minister of Health was on the ballot. That was the spring session. But summertime gives us time to relax. Summertime gives us time to sit back and reflect on where we would like to go. I am sure members on the opposite side of the House did the same thing. Here we are now, back in here in the fall session - I say to the Member for Port de Grave - and we only have three people left on the ballot with a possibility by Christmas of only having two. The numbers are down.

The Minister of Municipal Affairs is gone. Sorry, Lloyd, but that is all I can do. I tried my best for you but that is it. The Minister of Tourism is long gone, gone right out of the pack altogether. He is not even going to be king make. He might even be queen maker but he will not be king maker. He is out of the picture altogether. The Minister of Health is toying with the idea; she may hang around. The Minister of Finance is out of the picture altogether. He is not bothering about the leadership of the Party. He has his eyes - I had the opportunity in 1994, with the Minister of Finance, to visit Ottawa. He and I went out to Hull, Quebec - if he can remember now. The Minister of Finance said to me at that time: Ottawa is a nice place. Ottawa is a beautiful city. Since then, I think, he has been working his campaign to make sure that he becomes a Member of Parliament in Ottawa. All I can say to the Minister of Finance is that I congratulate him on his efforts and say: Watch out, Gerry, because Dick is coming. All I can say to the Minister of Finance is that I wish you luck.

The leadership is down now between the Minister of Mines and Energy and the Minister of Fisheries.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: We are on the health bill, I say to the Member for Bellevue. That is why I am talking about who may become Premier of this Province afterwards. That is why it is very important that we talk about this because it matters to everybody's health what happens on that side of the House with regard to the leadership campaign.

We have the Minister of Fisheries, who is up on the back campaigning. My belief is that he is the front-runner. I cannot get any support on this side of the House for that. The Minister of Fisheries is the front- runner. Nobody else will agree with me; he is the front-runner. The Minister of Mines and Energy is running a close second but the Minister of Fisheries, in my eyes, is far ahead.

The Member for Mount Scio-Bell Island, is it -

AN HON. MEMBER: Conception Bay East & Bell Island..

MR. MANNING: The Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island - no, you are out of the picture.

Mr. Speaker, what I could foresee happening on that side is that you would end up - do you know what you could do? You could end up electing a Tory to your leadership. Do you know that?

Do you know something, I say to the Minister of Finance? A Tory could end up as leader of your Party. The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation has a good shot at the leadership - a good leader. I am telling you, it would be good for the Province to have a good Tory as the leader of the Liberal Party. It will be good for the Province. I say there would be nothing wrong with having a good Tory leader of the Liberal Party. The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation could fill that bill, I say in all honesty. I know the man. I spent a few years at a table with him. He is a good Tory and he could be a good leader of the Liberal Party. No wonder they are adopting all our policies. He brought them all over with him.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: He brought them all over to that side of the House, all our policies that we took years to develop, years. He put them in his briefcase and walked across the corridor down there - even before the new carpet got out there - he walked across, brought over all our policies, brought them your caucus table, and now you are adopting them.

It satisfies us because we believe in these policies. We believe in the policies on health care. We believe in the policies on water export. We believe in the policies that the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation has made you adopt on that side of the House. He is a very powerful minister, a great persuader. I sat shoulder to shoulder with him many times and listened to his advice. He gave good advice. I am glad that side of the House is accepting that advice and taking some action. If we could get him back over for a few days to give him a few more bits of policy that we have, and take it back over, we might get some good, solid government here. I say congratulations.

AN HON. MEMBER: Fabian, tells us about the MOGs (inaudible).

MR. MANNING: No, I don't think the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation wants to talk about MOGs. I don't think he wants to talk about the MOGs so I will leave that one alone.

I just want to clue up and say that -

MR. BARRETT: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Oh, don't worry about that, I say to the Member for Bellevue. Only a few roads in my district need help and I will be talking to the minister on that. We will work on that together.

I was very surprised here today to listen to the Minister of Mines and Energy as he got up to bring back his news from his trip to Toronto. He got up and -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: That is the new look. That is the leadership look, I say to the minister. That is the leadership look, trying to look younger. He has been around these hallowed halls so long now, the Minister of Mines and Energy is trying to look younger. I would say, when he runs for the leadership the days of crying out on the steps of Confederation Building will come back to haunt him. The crocodile tears on the steps of Confederation Building will come back to haunt you, I say in all honesty.

I must say it is a different look. After spending a few days in Toronto, what that can do to you. The Minister of Mines and Energy, after spending a few days in Toronto, has a changed look.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) the Minister of Finance.

MR. MANNING: No, not to worry about the Minister of Finance. He has no aspirations at all for the leadership. No, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance is going federal. There is only one message that comes from the Minister of Finance: Gerry , look out, the `Dick' is coming. That is the only message that is coming from that side of the House: Gerry, look out, he is coming. They know that. There is a plan on that side and that is going to work that way.

I say in all honesty that I was pleased to able to stand to day and say a few words on Bill 27. I was sorry to be distracted. When you have members from the other side attacking you verbally and you cannot hear what they are saying, and they are mumbling, I have to try to answer a few questions that they have.

Health care is in a major crises in this Province. To think that we could stand in this House on a day-to-day basis and give a glowing report on what is happening in health care in this Province, as the President of Treasury Board did earlier, while the Member for Ferryland is on his feet on a constant basis raising the concerns and issues of the people of this Province, is something. It is something that needs to be taken in hand. I believe we should have a committee traveling around this Province addressing the health care concerns.

We have a committee traveling around the Province talking about Jobs and Growth. We should have a committee traveling around this Province talking about health care concerns, gathering the information from people in this Province who have health concerns and health issues. I guarantee you, I say to the Government House Leader, that if he thought that he got numbers out to the committee on Jobs and Growth, if he had a committee traveling around on health care the numbers would far surpass what the numbers were for people that showed up to the committee on Jobs and Growth.

There is a major problem in health care. I say to the Minister of Mines and Energy -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: No, I say to the Minister of Mines and Energy, don't get nasty. Just because I said the Member for Port de Grave, the Minister of Fisheries, is ahead in the race. That is coming from the rural part of Newfoundland. Just because the Minister of Fisheries is ahead in the race, I say to the Minister of Mines and Energy, you have about fourteen, fifteen months to go, so don't worry, you are only six points behind on my latest poll.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries is far ahead because is a more amiable fella. That is where it is.

I said I wanted to get back to Bill 27 and I keep getting interrupted. I say to the Minister of Mines and Energy, I do not know what he was doing in Toronto but he is certainly much more alive than he was when he left here on Friday. It is great to have the Minister of Mines and Energy back in the Province.

The Minister of Mines and Energy went through a special process when he was in Toronto, I say to the Member for Waterford Valley. He is more refined since he came back. I say to the Minister of Mines and Energy that he is more refined now than he was before he left for Toronto. The Minister of Mines and Energy was rough around the edges before he left. He is more refined since he came back. My only concern for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and I say this with all honesty, is: Is this the finished product?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: I ask that question on behalf of all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. If this is the finished product, I hope we have a new method of processing coming to this Province.

AN HON. MEMBER: How about you and Chuck? How are you and Chuck doing?

MR. MANNING: You cannot say a member's name like that. The Minister of Tourism is doing quite well, I think.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: No, sir. I am going to do my darndest to make sure it is short-lived, and I am going to stay here. The only reason I am going to stay here is I hope that when he does not come - he will leave too. The only reason I will go along with that is if he promises never to come back.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. MANNING: Mr. Speaker, in all honesty, I am very pleased to stand today and present a few concerns on health care in this Province, because health care is a major concern. I know the jockeying is on the go over there for the leadership race, but it is down between the Minister of Mines and Energy and the Minister of Fisheries.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. MANNING: By leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. SPEAKER : Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I notice the time. I just have a couple of minutes, so I guess I will carry on tomorrow. I would like to speak for a few minutes about the health care situation in the Province, Bill 27. I am not going to get into too much about who the Leader of the Liberal Party might be next time. Really, I am not all that interested or care who it might be, but it is interesting to notice and hear the President of Treasury Board when she made her comment about -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It was interesting to note, as the President of Treasury Board talked about the new expenditures in construction around the Province and she mentioned the new hospital in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, what she did not mention is that it will have fewer beds than the old hospital but will contain many more administrative offices. That is the direction that the Province has taken in terms of providing health care, by reducing the beds, closing beds, and increasing the administration.

In light of the time, Mr. Speaker, I adjourn debate.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I move that the House adjourn until tomorrow at 9:00 a.m.

On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Friday, at 9:00 a.m.