May 4, 1998 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIII No. 18


The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Penney): Order, please!

 

Statements by Ministers

 

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs.

MR. A. REID: Mr. Speaker, I want to provide the House today with a status report on government's initiatives to help municipalities, especially rural municipalities, in their efforts to maintain financial stability.

Up to this point - the latest one was on Friday, which I signed with the town of my hon. colleague from across the way, with which and on behalf of whom he was working so hard - fifty of our municipalities, with encouragement from my department, have been able to refinance in excess of $100 million of government-guaranteed debt owing to the financial corporation. Mr. Speaker, $100 million has basically been paid back to the Newfoundland and Labrador Municipal Financial Corporation. Over $100 million has been paid back by communities around this Province. That is a lot of money, a tremendous amount of money.

These municipalities have refinanced this debt through banks and private lending institutions where they were able to achieve lower interest rates - some, Mr. Speaker, as low as 5.5 percent. This refinancing has resulted in tens of thousands of dollars in savings to reinvest in their communities. It demonstrates good, sound financial management by these municipalities.

In addition, Mr. Speaker, our $12 million Debt Relief Program is enabling us to assist municipalities to regain financial stability. To date, negotiations are ongoing or completed with up to forty municipalities, and another thirty-five municipalities are pending.

I want to take this opportunity to commend the municipalities of the Province who have participated in this program. They have demonstrated to us, and to the Province, positive action in getting their financial houses in order.

This program is contributing significantly to the revitalization of rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister today that as well, of course, we are glad to see that fifty communities have certainly taken advantage and have gone and refinanced their debt. I would say to the minister, though, as the Government House Leader has been heard to say over the last few days, Minister: One size does not fit all. And I believe that in municipalities in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, one size does not fit all as it relates to municipalities.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FRENCH: Oh, I do not worry about the man over there worrying about my size. He should be more concerned about his own. He should watch his back, I say to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, where he is going and where is coming from. Anyway, I certainly will not get into that.

I just say to the minister that again, you know, we have municipalities in our Province that have certainly been looking for assistance to retire their debt. In some incidents with municipalities we have out-migration, and in some municipalities we have quite a bit of out-migration.

I just say to the minister that what may be good on one side - to increase taxes and so on - we have other municipalities around this Province, as you are well aware, Sir, that are shutting off lights, cutting back on garbage collections and so on. So I think we have to be very, very careful here in exactly what we are going to do with municipalities in this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to inform the House of an important campaign which is under way in Canada during the month of May. It is the Green Ribbon of Hope Campaign of Child Find Canada Incorporated.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, this is a serious statement. If hon. members see this matter as a joke, I certainly do not.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. DECKER: That is why it is always prudent to listen before you shoot off your mouth.

It is the Green Ribbon of Hope Campaign of Child Find Canada Inc., Mr. Speaker.

Child Find Newfoundland and Labrador Inc. is a member of Child Find Canada, and they are a very active group of volunteers in this Province; a group, I will say, all of us hope we would not need to call upon. But unfortunately, all too often in this Province, this group is searching for a missing child.

May is Green Ribbon of Hope month. Green represents a light in the darkness for all missing children. I am wearing a green ribbon today, Mr. Speaker, and I urge all Members of the House of Assembly and all citizens to wear a green ribbon as a symbol of hope for the recovery of all missing children in our country. I understand the Page is now passing out the green ribbons.

Child Find Newfoundland and Labrador spends countless hours educating adults and children on the prevention of abduction, they promote awareness of the problem of missing children and they assist in the location of missing children. I would like to acknowledge, Mr. Speaker, Ms Maura Beam, President of Child Find Newfoundland and Labrador and the Executive Director, Ms Terry Mahoney-Cleary, both of whom are in the gallery today.

Mr. Speaker, I would also like to commend Child Find Newfoundland and Labrador for their work in this Province. Working in close co-operation with the police forces, they provide strength and support to parents during most difficult circumstances. I know specifically, they have been very active in search of the three missing O'Brien boys and have played a significant role in supporting their mother, Diana.

It is unfortunate that our society is plagued with the circumstance of missing children but to combat such circumstances we have an organization in Child Find that do what they can to alleviate the problem. We must remain vigilant in protecting our children. Government is very supportive of this campaign and we wish successful resolution to each and every case which Child Find Newfoundland and Labrador finds itself involved in.

Mr. Speaker, green ribbons are available for the hon. members to wear today and for the entire month of May if they are so inclined.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, join with the minister in recognizing the good work of Child Find Newfoundland and Labrador Inc., which is, of course, a member of the parent group Child Find Canada. This organization deals with a very real problem in our society, namely, the problem of missing children and abducted children. As we all know, in our own Province of Newfoundland and Labrador that is an issue which is very real amongst us. However, it is an issue which affects many parts of the world, in particular perhaps the United States, Central America, South America and Asia, where the issue of missing children and abducted children has become a focus of great attention.

So, Mr. Speaker, we join with members opposite in recognizing their good work and on behalf of the members of this side of the House we certainly wish the best in the endeavours of Child Find Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the minister for giving me an advance copy of his statement. I would like to join with him and the Member for St. John's East in commending the work of Child Find Newfoundland and Labrador and Child Find Canada in assisting those who are affected by the problem of missing and abducted children. Mr. Speaker, it is hard to imagine the excruciating pain that parents must go through when knowing that their child is missing and not knowing where or in what situation they find themselves. It is a very difficult time for parents and sometimes it ends proving quite tragic. I think the work that this organization does in assisting parents and families, especially those who are awaiting news, is very, very important and the organization ought to be congratulated for their efforts and I hope that their efforts in finding, in particular, the O'Brien children prove to be successful in the end.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Before proceeding to Oral Questions, the Chair would like to welcome to the Speaker's gallery on behalf of all hon. members, representatives of the Atlantic Provinces Teachers' Organizations.

They include Jan Eastman, President of the Canadian Teachers' Federation; François Beaulieu, President of AEFNB; Pierre Paillard, AEFNB; Clarence Robichaud, AEFNB; Larry Jamieson, Vice-President NBTA; Mary Vick, NBTA; Ed Kilfoil, PEITF; accompanied by Mr. Fred Andrews, Vice-President of NLTA, and Mr. Ed Hancock, NLTA.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

 

Oral Questions

 

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, thank you for the new title again.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair apologizes but is not quite sure whether the apology should be extended to the hon. member or to the member who should be sitting in the other chair.

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It seems like I can never get rid of this job.

My questions today are for the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: I ask the Minister of Health and Community Services, if she will inform the House if the policy has changed regarding community health nurses taking blood from patients who are confined to their homes.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS J. M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, there are numerous policies and procedures in place for any number of procedures conducted by the community health nursing program. Certainly, if there is a change outlined through the various boards or associations, it would have to follow the protocol, and that would be anything that can be reasonably and prudently acknowledged and accomplished by a registered nurse.

Policies may change from time to time. Not every policy is submitted to the Department of Health and Community Services for approval. If the member would like to be more specific in nature of the board and the policy and what component of withdrawing blood he is referring to, I would be happy to verify that with the existing board or the Association.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am sure the minister should be aware of any policy change. I think it is important as a part of her job to be up on all changes and all policies that happen within the health care system here in our Province.

I ask the minister: Will she confirm that patients have been notified that they will now have to pay for nurses who visit their homes to take blood if blood is required to be taken more than once a month?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS J. M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In a publicly-funded system, I can say to the member opposite that blood is withdrawn through the various lab and X-ray services throughout the Province. I know that service is available at any time upon appointment or referral through the various board or hospital or clinic. To date that is as much as I will confirm without knowing the specific board and the specific circumstances surrounding this particular issue.

I would say again to the House, and to the Opposition House Leader and health critic, that if he has a specific issue or concern that he would like to have addressed, I am only too happy to assist him in finding the information as he brings it to my attention, if he should wish to do so, outside of the House, or prior to the House at any time, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think the minister is very much aware of what I am talking about. People are going to have to pay. If they require it more than once a month they are going to have to pay; if they require blood to be taken two or three, four or five times a month, they may have to pay. The minister should be aware of that. Many patients, before they are being discharged from hospital, feel embarrassed when they are asked before they leave if they can afford to pay for a nurse to visit their home for taking blood. Many say yes out of embarrassment when really they cannot afford to pay. I ask the minister: Is she now pursuing in her department a user-pay concept for certain medical services provided?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS J. M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In a publicly funded health system, our services are offered for the most part through hospitals, nursing homes and community agencies. Anyone today has an option to go to a private clinic, if they choose to pay, for blood or other tests. If that particular individual wants to go to a publicly funded system to have the blood withdrawn, if it is for medical reasons, that would be covered under the policy set down under the publicly funded system that we have. If there is an arrangement whereby, through convenience or some other way, Mr. Speaker, a person should choose to go to a private clinic or have someone come into their own home, that service is available to them by choice.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader, on a supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Maybe the minister did not hear the first question I asked. I asked: For those who are confined to their homes, people very sick - one individual who called my office and who I spoke with, who has not been out of the house since January 1, 1997, had to go to hospital in an ambulance to get blood taken, and then back in an ambulance, seventy-five dollars each way. Then it was done by nurses. Now people are being informed that they are going to have to start paying if they only require it once a month.

Now, I ask the minister: Are we pursuing a user-pay concept for those who can afford to pay it? I ask the minister again: Is she aware that this directive is being given out in the department and nurses are telling people they are visiting that this is the case? Because I have received many calls and I would be very surprised if the minister, in her department, is not aware of it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will say again to the member opposite, as I have said previously, if he wants to come and identify the board and the practices - again, Mr. Speaker, in a department whereby we have the largest department in government, about a $1.1 billion operation, I have to say that there are policies, there are transfer of function policies, there are policies regarding other health professionals, other types of procedures; and, Mr. Speaker, I do not tick off and correct and review every single policy that every single board puts in place.

I will say, Mr. Speaker, that a publicly funded system does afford services being offered. If the member wants to come forward, as I have offered many times here, and discuss this issue with me, or give the identifiable board, I would be only too happy to follow up with him or with the board; and the offer still stands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader, a final supplementary.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister may not be ticking off every policy but she is certainly ticking of the sick people who cannot get out of their homes to give blood. Many of these need blood taken because of their medical ailments, I say to the minister. Will she admit - the community health care board that serves the St. John's region is where I have had several calls, I say to the minister. It is no secret. She should know it as minister.

Now, are we setting a policy whereby those who can afford to pay for blood to be taken in their homes, who cannot get outside, are going to have to pay; and those who cannot afford to pay are told not to worry if their income is at a level that they cannot afford to pay? Are we setting up a two-tier system now where you pay if you can afford, and you do not for certain medical services that are considered essential medical services, to monitor a person's condition while they are being discharged from hospital at an early time, I ask the minister?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, in a publicly funded system we offer the services and the test whereby anyone who avails of those services in a publicly funded system, through either a referral from an appropriate soon-to-be nurse practitioner or through a physician, or some other professional who has access to order it, they can avail of those services in a publicly funded health care system or clinic, Mr. Speaker.

If someone chooses to avail of the service, if they have the income that allows them to do that - many people might choose to do it for other reasons - that is also afforded to them; but, Mr. Speaker, there are services and practices outside what is considered publicly funded. We all know that if you go to a physician for some services they are not covered under the Canada Health Act or under MCP, and people will choose to pay for those themselves.

Mr. Speaker, I stand by the statement. In a publicly funded system those services are available and accessible through the clinics, hospitals, nursing homes and other facilities that we provide to the citizens of this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am appalled at what the minister is saying, `...the people who can afford to pay.' Does that mean for heart surgeries, for other surgeries, for other medical services, we are going to start instituting now a user pay concept for medical services that have been free and accessible to all? That is what the minister is saying?

Now, I ask the minister: Will she stand in her place here, instead of skating around the issue, and tell us if she is aware of people having to pay for certain medical services here under the community health board in the St. John's region? Is she aware of it? As of April 1 it has been effective, I say to the minister, is she aware of it?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, this government is on record and continues to be on record as a strong advocate for a publicly funded system. I think, Mr. Speaker, it is important to note: It is your colleague in the Province of Alberta that will put the first piece of legislation through the House!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Oh, yes! For a private hospital, Mr. Speaker!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: A private hospital, Mr. Speaker. Your own colleagues in Alberta, in the Klein government, will put forward in this session the first piece of legislation to allow for a private hospital in this country. That is the reality of what is happening across the country. Let it be known, Mr. Speaker, that this government will always advocate for a publicly funded system and will stand firm in that commitment, either around our table or at the national table.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I was tempted to stop there. I was tempted to stop. Maybe I will give Ralph a call. But it was her Premier and her federal minister who were responsible for slashing $155 million from health care and post-secondary education when he was our federal minister, and that is part of the reason we have a problem today. All I asked the minister was a simple question: Is she aware that we are now charging for a certain service, the taking of blood, in homes for people who are confined to their homes, and we are making some pay and others not? It is as simple as that, Minister, here under the community health board of the St. John's region. Are you aware of it, yes or no?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will say, Mr. Speaker, in response to the preamble, it is our Premier who is now leading the charge to restore the CHST funding around the table that I sit at, Mr. Speaker, in the Ministerial Council. It is his colleagues across the way who are trying to clearly divide the private and the public health systems that we have today, whether it be an eye clinic or open heart surgery. That is the challenge that we face around the national table, trying to restore and maintain the system that we have. I will say again that in a publicly funded system, the services that people require, whether it is having blood withdrawn or other services, continue to be provided and will be provided in a publicly-funded system.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question today is for the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods. We all know, when we talk about the spruce budworm and infestation in the forest and so on, there is nothing more deadly in the forest industry than potential forest fires.

Mr. Speaker, with the strange weather over the past few years, but particularly this year, especially on the Avalon Peninsula, we could see an extreme explosion of forest fires with the no run-off and, of course, the dry situation and El Nino, I say to the minister, certainly has affected right across the country, as a matter of fact - in California - but, here in Newfoundland I am more concerned about, so I ask the Minister: Does he feel that his department is adequately ready this year for forest fires in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister for Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question from the member and want to let him know that we are very ready for the forest fire season. We hope we do not have one but, nevertheless, our people and equipment are quite ready, we look forward to not having a hard forest fire season because we have a forest to protect and we are trying to maximize the use of that resource, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I know first-hand about forest fires. In my district some years ago there was a forest fire - we evacuated two communities on the Baie Verte Peninsula. It can be very serious and it could happen, Mr. Speaker, and the catch - pardon the pun - with forest fires, is that it could change within hours. With the wind conditions and so on, dry conditions, forest fires, people in this Province can tell you, can change within hours, not days. That is the potential danger.

Mr. Speaker, in the last short while, as a matter of fact, in the last few days, there have been many reports on the Avalon Peninsula of a number of fires - I do not know if it is a record number, maybe the minister can tell us that. Only two of eighteen seasonal forest fire workers have been called back to work to date. What has been happening is that people from the Wildlife offices and forestry officials in the minister's department have been responding to those fires that are minimal now but they have potential.

Can the minister tell us when the rest of the seasonal forest fire people on the Avalon will be called back to work?

MR. SULLIVAN: There are fires and they are not calling them back?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, they will be recalled very much in due course, at the appropriate time. We are ready to deal with forest fires in this Province. We always have been and will be, with the equipment and the excellent personnel that we have. In due course and in very short order, the normal recruitment will take place and we will be ready again.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, the seasonal workers who have not been called back, do not feel like that. They have also told me - the minister can correct me if I am wrong - it takes preparation time to prepare for those fires, some that have been already reported here and on the rest of the Island.

In the twenty-year plan, there has been a list. Between the year 1996 and 2000, some improvements should have been made in this respect. None of them have been done to date. I would like to ask the minister when he plans on implementing those things that were in his own plan so we can make sure we do not run into any serious problems for this year.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure what the member has been told. I would like to advise the House that our department is quite ready to deal with forest fires in this Province. Our people, in short order, are going to be called back as per normal. We will have an adequate - more than adequate - fire protection service for our Province.

We take responsibility - we take very seriously the protection of our forest resource, as we have in the past and as we will in the future. We will ensure that we have enough people, more than adequate, to deal with forest fires.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for the Signal Hill - Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Government House Leader in his capacity as the designated hitter on the post-TAGS situation. I know the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture does not know much about it because he was not there at the meetings in Ottawa.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, The Globe and Mail is reporting today that their sources tell them there is a larger post-TAGS program that had been planned but the elements of it seem to indicate that there will not be much in the way of income support, other than perhaps a more punitive level of support, and that for the people who are being cut off TAGS either this week or every week between now and the end of August, there will be nothing other than `Goodbye, Charlie Brown', the same statement that was given to us by Admiral Mifflin when we were in Ottawa ten days ago. Does the minister have any further information? Can he tell us whether that is accurate, and that the people who are being cut off this week are being cut off for good?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, overall that is a very good question, but let me say to the hon. gentleman first of all that I can assure him that the Minister of Fisheries knows as much as anybody in this Legislature, or I suspect, in the Province, about fish and fish-related matters.

Let me just say to him that it is interesting to see that The Globe and Mail, that great benefactor, that great newspaper that is always putting out very positive things about Newfoundland and Labrador, is again today in the news trying to somehow belittle the work of governments in Canada for Newfoundland and Labrador.

Let me say to him that it is our intention - we have consistently said this, he knows this, he was in the same meetings as I was, some of them; at least with the all-party committee - let me assure him that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has been consistently saying that we believe there has to be a program put in place for those people, the 3,000 or 4,000 or whatever you want, the numbers that are coming off TAGS now. We believe they have to be looked after regardless of what the elements of the program are.

I will say to him - he knows this - that there was, and there is still, some work to be done on convincing people just what an income replacement program should be. We are continuing to pursue the whole situation.

If he read The Evening Telegram, which is always very positive for governments in this Province, he would have noted that there is a great deal more optimism being - not a great deal. Nobody is absolutely certain yet exactly what is going to happen to a post-TAGS program. But there is, I say to him - and I think he must have detected this himself last week. As a matter of fact he did, he said it publicly, that he detected last week himself that there was, shall we say, a thawing of the ice in Ottawa. It is not as cold up there as it was, it is not as cold in Central Canada as it was. Indeed, when you sit down and point out to people how important this program is to Newfoundland and Labrador, and how responsible the national government is on this whole issue, they are, I believe, responding. I do not think we are quite there yet, but we are getting there.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think we all agree that the work of our committee was effective in Ottawa in thawing the ice and making things a little bit more hospitable to the fishery workers of this Province. If today's news from The Globe and Mail is as far as we got, there is now going to be an awful lot of unhappy people in this Province. I want to ask the minister what further specific plans he and his government have to move the federal government and their ministers in Ottawa before a final decision is made. What specific measures are he and the Premier and other members of government taking to affect the decision-making in Ottawa on this issue?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I would be only too glad to tell the hon. gentleman what it is we are doing. The hon. gentleman will know that after the all-party committee of the Legislature left Ottawa last Wednesday morning, I stayed behind with a couple of officials in the department to start meeting with federal ministers. There has been a great deal of work ongoing by the member for the West Coast, Mr. Gerry Byrne, this weekend, as he attempted to meet with various ministers in Ottawa to pursue this matter.

I hope I do not miss anybody here. I have a list here somewhere which I can provide the hon. gentleman. We met with Marcel Massé, who is the President of Treasury Board. We met with Stéphane Dion, the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. Those are two very powerful ministers in the federal Cabinet. We also met with Herb Gray and one other which I forget, but I will provide the list to the hon. gentleman.

MR. FITZGERALD: How about our own federal minister?

MR. TULK: I am in constant contact. I must say to him, we are in constant contact with the hon. Fred Mifflin. He has doing a very good job. I say to the hon. gentleman, we intend to go back -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: Why is it that the Tories cannot engage in serious dialogue?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, why is everything a joke to the Opposition?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I intend to go back later on this week, to be frank with the hon. gentleman, to pursue those matters, to try to point out the different characteristics of this problem and to point out in general terms what we think a solution should be.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

In 1996, the government eliminated the carrier plates which served as regulators on the trucking industry, and part of that was, unless you had a carrier plate you could not operate a dump truck on the Island or on the highways and the number of plates was determined by the Public Utilities Board.

Has the government undertaken an analysis of the impact on truckers and the trucking industry within the Province since this change in policy?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There are also some other changes made at about that time in terms of departmental responsibilities, and I believe this issue is probably a question more appropriately put to the Minister of Government Services and Lands inasmuch as I am not at all familiar with it. I am sure that he will be willing to talk to you about it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the same question for the Minister of Government Services and Lands. Carrier plates - Mr. Speaker, this is shameful!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: In 1996, the government eliminated carrier plates on the trucking industry in Newfoundland. The number of plates was determined by the Public Utilities Board. Has the government done an impact study on the impact it has on the truckers and the trucking industry in the Province since 1996?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

No, there has not been an impact study done on the carrier plates.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that because the former Minister of Works, Services and Transportation said there is no need or, did you make the decision yourself?

Private truckers, Mr. Speaker, private truckers are taking slave wages in this Province to keep money flowing. The hourly rate has dropped sharply from fifty-seven dollars an hour to as low as thirty-five dollars today, and truckers cannot cover their cost of fuel, insurances and licensing. Does the minister realize the impact this change in policy is having on the lives of the truckers in this Province, the private truckers?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The business to do with the trucking industry in this Province in terms of carrier plates is basically a private enterprise situation, and where they could negotiate better deals, that is what they certainly should be doing.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: And you are getting to the point now, I say to the minister, why it was changed in the first place.

Is the government aware of the allegations that some construction companies are bidding on government tenders and citing the old trucking fees according to the old regulations, and are, in turn, paying only 60 per cent to the private truckers? Is he aware that the disappearance of the old regulations guaranteeing a certain proportion of work to the independent truckers means that the bigger companies are forcing the independents out of business? Will he investigate these allegations, report with his findings and commit to address these problems if he finds they are true?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, the issue of plates is certainly a separate issue from the issue of the obligations of primary contractors in terms of subcontracting trucking services to do their work.

The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that we have deregulated two or three years ago the trucking industry, consistent with what we have, the approach we have been taking in many, many other areas. We have divested quite a number of government services to the private sector; we are encouraging the private sector to become more pro-active and more competitive in their own right in doing business in the Province. The trucking sector is one sector that was previously regulated, it has now been deregulated.

I have heard, Mr. Speaker, and I have had representation on a number of occasions, and have sat down with the independent truckers who have a concern about not being able to get as much for their services now as they were heretofore under regulation. I have also arranged meetings for them with the Road Builders Association; they have sat down together in my board room and had a discussion about how they go forward together to do business, and while it is a concern for the independent truckers that they may not be able to get as much as they used to be able to get, the fact of the matter is that they are operating in the private sector not unlike pretty well everybody else who is out there trying to run a business.

The trucking services is only one of many contractual-type services that the construction industry has to engage to fulfil a contract obligation. We are aware of their difficulties and we are aware of their concerns, but we are also aware that we need to put the truckers in the Province in no more of a favourable or in no more of a disadvantage circumstance than anybody else out there in the private sector who has to operate on a competitive basis.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question today is to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister if he has made any inquires, or if he has pursued the question to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, whereby people today who get a personal seal licence are not allowed to sell their seal pelts, or give them away, or take them to local plants for processing.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister for Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, I have.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I ask the minister what answer the Minister for Fisheries and Oceans gave him, taking into consideration that today people go out, take their six seals for personal use, and many times you see those pelts floating around the beaches, Mr. Speaker, half the year the dogs pulling them home to somebody's lawn. What a picture for the IFAW to take, I say to the minister.

I ask the minister: Does he not consider it more appropriate to allow those people to be able to sell their pelts so they may be used for some good within the sealing industry?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister for Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: As, far as the IFAW is concerned, Mr. Speaker, they do not exist. They are not a topic of my conversation or thoughts whatsoever. I do not care what they think. But, Mr. Speaker, I would like to see the 6 million seals, or whatever number is out there, killed and sold, or destroyed or burned. I do not care what happens to them. The fact is that the markets are not there to sell more seals; 286,000 were hunted and sold. If there was a market for more -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. EFFORD: If there was a market for more seals, the commercial sealers would be hunting and selling seals. The special allowance was for the personal use sealers, that they could take six seals for their personal use. What they do with the pelts, Mr. Speaker, is up to them. They cannot sell them because the markets are not there. What they wanted was to have the right to go out and kill the seals. They have that right, and the more they kill the better I will love it.

MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.

 

Notices of Motion

 

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will ask leave to introduce the following private member's resolution:

WHEREAS the sole reason for the existence of Marine Atlantic is to provide an essential transportation link to Newfoundland and Labrador; and

WHEREAS it is therefore only reasonable to expect that all Marine Atlantic positions should be located in Newfoundland and Labrador, except those in services that absolutely must be located in Nova Scotia; and

WHEREAS the key port of entry into Newfoundland and Labrador for Marine Atlantic vessels is and should remain Port aux Basques; and

WHEREAS it is therefore only reasonable that the main headquarters for Marine Atlantic in Canada should be located at Port aux Basques and all positions located at the former headquarters at Moncton, with no exceptions, should be relocated to Port aux Basques; and

WHEREAS the Government of Canada has recently announced that many of the Marine Atlantic positions located at Moncton will not be relocated to Newfoundland and Labrador but will be relocated to Nova Scotia, even though it is not essential to the proper operation of the service, and that they be located outside of Newfoundland and Labrador;

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that this House express its condemnation of the Government of Canada's failure to relocate all Marine Atlantic positions at Moncton to Port aux Basques; reject the notion that Marine Atlantic positions formerly located at Moncton should be shared between Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia; third, urge the Government of Canada in the strongest terms to revise its recent decision on Marine Atlantic restructuring in such a way to ensure that all positions formerly located at Moncton, without exception, be relocated to Port aux Basques; and urge the Government of Canada to move to Port aux Basques all Marine Atlantic positions currently located outside this Province, including positions in the maintenance, reservation and purchasing divisions of this Crown corporation, except those that must, of necessity, be located outside Newfoundland and Labrador for the proper operation of the service.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

 

Petitions

 

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is my pleasure to present a petition here to the House of Assembly on a very important initiative, the Goulds bypass road.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is not new.

MR. SULLIVAN: I know it is not new, but I can tell you they keep coming in. I presented 800 the last day, and every day in the mail there are one or two petitions. A bundle came in last week. I have an obligation to present them and I want to present them, because I believe strongly in it.

Almost every single day, as you drive on the Southern Shore, you will see trucks on the road, development occurring in Bay Bulls; every day two flag persons there waving trucks by.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: I say to the minister, he interrupted my petition the last day, and I have to ask him again, if he is going to keep interrupting: Where did he go when he left Ottawa and did not meet with the ministers? Where did he go? Could he tell us? There are several rumours circulating and we would like to know the real truth.

Mr. Speaker, most of the petitioners here are from Cape Broyle, just about everybody, except a few names which are not from Cape Broyle. It is one that was placed in a store in Cape Broyle, one of the hundreds and hundreds, in the thousands actually - I have presented in excess of 1,000 already - just one of others asking this government to take a step in starting work on the Goulds bypass road.

I know the member from Topsail who is trying to speak there, a person who is touted as being a future Cabinet minister -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, it certainly is.

I say to hon. members, there are many developments occurring in our area and the road in our area is one of the worst roads you drive over in this Province. If anybody does not believe me, go down to Waterford Bridge Road, drive in to Kilbride Road and drive through the Goulds area; just drive it. It will only take you, in a non-traffic period, fifteen minutes each way, about thirty minutes total. Turn around by Big Pond and come back. Then try it in the morning during the peak traffic period and time yourself from Big Pond to here.

It is not just the traffic congestion - the numbers bear that out - but the condition of the road that is there which is really an added burden. It is a main street of St. John's. The longest street in the City of St. John's is the road to get to my district. Who should have to drive through a main street for thirty-five and forty minutes to get from the Southwest end, just to get out of the city, when you are already in the Southwest part of the city?

So, I say, it is important; identify it. I am sure the minister will find a few dollars this year. I am sure a few crumbs will fall off his table some time in the near future. I am sure there will be a little bit of slippage in announcing on the contracts this year, it has been so competitive. My colleague alluded to people being forced to work for very little; very competitive. There should be a few dollars left there in the pot that will see a start on that this year, some preliminary work done, and we will get up to a full scale construction of that next year.

That is important; it is important to the people in the entire Ferryland District, people in the Goulds area, in the Petty Harbour - Maddox Cove area, who drive on that road in to St. John's. They will free up traffic on that road. They will make it easier for people to do their business in the Goulds area, to move into the shopping centre in the Goulds, Bidgoods, to move into other businesses from the main highway. It will facilitate the movement of traffic on and off parking lots bordering on the main highway that is now a very serious problem there.

Government has identified it as being a serious problem. They have given a commitment to doing it. We are just saying: Why does it have to be in the last years of a ten- or fifteen-year agreement? I am carrying out a duty that I am pleased to do, I say to the minister, on the Goulds bypass road, and as long as the petitions keep coming in I will stand up here every single day and present them. I hope there are more tomorrow. I hope when I get my mail this afternoon there are a few more in it, because the House is not aware of the urgent need of that area but they will be by the time I am finished.

I know they are sold on it. We just want some extra money. That is all they are asking. They are saying: We know it is coming there, but why can't you find a few dollars to get something moving this year?

It is very important to the businesses in the area, for commuters here back and forth to work, people having to leave their homes an extra half-hour earlier in the mornings to get to work here, a half-hour extra back in the evening; people, young families there. Why be out of your home an extra hour or hour and a half each day because of a transportation system that is far from adequate?

Mr. Speaker, the petitioners here urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to begin construction on the Goulds bypass road this coming year. They have highlighted many of the concerns.

The Irish Loop Regional Economic Development Board, Zone 20, has addressed this as a major initiative that is needed there. They have spearheaded this petition drive. I am sure the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal appreciates the work that regional economic development boards do in the area and around our Province. I say it is important that the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation realize the importance of expeditiously carrying out this particular project.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Once again I find myself standing in my place to support a petition presented by the Member for Ferryland who is doing a very good job, I might add, taking care of his district and trying to get the roadwork done in his district, which is a long overdue necessity. Even by the minister's own admission it needs to be done. There is funding put in place for it. We thought it would be spent this year, but no, it is going to be started next year. For the sake of one year, I don't know why they could not have started this year. It is a part of the overall network for the highways and byways in and around St. John's and the Northeast Avalon.

The people on the Southern Shore desperately need this road done. One point I made some time ago with respect to the necessity, even from an environmental perspective, when we have thousands of cars spending an extra half-hour or forty-five minutes on that road in the mornings because of the condition of the Goulds highway and the network that is there now which is not able to handle properly the traffic flow on the Southern Shore Highway.

We have the Member for Ferryland presenting a number of petitions in this House. He presented them from the District of Placentia & St. Mary's; he presented them from other areas. People in Mount Pearl, I would assume, would use this Goulds bypass if it ever comes to pass. Any time I am on my feet with respect to the Goulds bypass, what comes to my mind, of course, is the Torbay bypass which was supposed to be started by now. I know that the Department of Works, Services and Transportation has purchased properties on the route for the Torbay bypass, and the former Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, the now Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, put the Torbay bypass on the back burner.

Again, when you look at the traffic flow on Torbay Road, it is very similar to what Topsail Road used to be years ago, and the Goulds highway now. As I said in previous statements in this House of Assembly in supporting petitions put forward by the Member for Ferryland, this road is long overdue. As I stated earlier, the Goulds bypass would circumvent the whole community of Goulds. I was going to say the Town of Goulds but the previous Administration, the former Premier, made sure that didn't exist any more. He forced amalgamation. He said at the time there would be no forced amalgamation, but the Goulds was taken out, and Wedgewood Park, and forced to join the City of St. John's. Maybe if they had stayed separate they might have the Goulds bypass now. I don't know. Who knows these things?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I would say to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture he should be careful, because I threatened the other day to tell in this House what the Premier has planned for him, but I wouldn't. I try not to.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh my, God only knows. The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture is nervous too, I will tell you that. I saw him here the other day. When certain points were brought up he turned pretty red about some of his travel plans.

Anyway, to be serious, Mr. Speaker, the Goulds bypass is a necessity. It is something that was supposed to have started this year. It is being delayed until next year. Then when next year comes by it will probably be delayed again for another year. Again, the pressure needs to be put on, needs to be kept on, and the Member for Ferryland is doing his job. He is going to keep the pressure on, I am sure, until that Goulds bypass is constructed.

Thank you for your time, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand today to present a petition to the House of Assembly. It reads: To the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland in legislative session convened. The petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland:

"WHEREAS the TAGS program whereby the federal government compensates fisheries workers for its mismanagement of the fisheries resource is due to expire in August and many people entitled to funding have already been or are about to be taken off the program prior to that date;

WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to take a lead role in convincing the federal government to announce and implement, without further delay, a successor program to TAGS which includes income replacement, license buy-back, early retirement and economic diversification, and to give immediate consideration to those who are entitled to compensation and are now or are about to be taken off this program. As in duty bound, your petitioners will ever pray."

Mr. Speaker, we are getting all kinds of mixed signals coming out of Ottawa, who is certainly responsible for this particular program, for the TAGS program, of who is going to be included and who is not going to be included, what the amount of compensation is going to be, who is going to be left out, are the people who are now off the program going to be included back on a new post-TAGS program or is it only going to be for the people who were there for the duration? Mr. Speaker, a committee of the House of Assembly, the All Party Committee, travelled to Ottawa and put forward their views to the five parties, as well as every other individual that people met along the way. Mr. Speaker, it is a situation where I am not sure that the central government attitude is conducive to putting forward a replacement program that is going to respond to the needs of those 20,000 plant workers and fisherpeople that are now eligible for this particular program.

Mr. Speaker, I remember speaking to Minister Pettigrew when he talked about being fiscally responsible and a problem with money. I spoke to him about the $14 billion to $16 billion that was existing in an EI pot that has been there and was contributed to by many of those same plant workers and fishermen when they had the opportunity to fish or go to work. The minister's response, Mr. Speaker, was indicative of the central government attitude. It was a response, Mr. Speaker, to the tune - will the people from Ontario be satisfied if we took money from the EI program and put it into a post-TAGS program? Mr. Speaker, there are many more people in this country than the people who work in Ontario, than the people who live in Ontario. Newfoundlanders who worked tirelessly every day have contributed to this EI fund and I am sure that many of us would contribute much more if we had the opportunity to be able to go to work.

Mr. Speaker, my concern with this particular group of people is the 3,000 in total but 2,000 Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who will come off this program next week. As of Wednesday, two days time, the last cheque goes in the mail for in excess of 2,000 Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. Those are real people. Those are people with telephone bills to pay, hydro bills to pay, people who go to the store every day to buy groceries, people who have financial commitments, Mr. Speaker. Two thousand of those Newfoundlanders and Labradorians will be without an income in just one weeks time. Their last cheque goes in the mail the day after tomorrow. That is a frightening place to find yourself, I say to people opposite. That was why I think we, as an all-party delegation, made the trip to Ottawa a week-and-a-half ago, because the emergency was not what is happening come next August but what is happening come next week.

AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: That is not true.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, it is true. Well, that was my thoughts towards it, I say to the Government House Leader. Whether it is true or not. The urgency, Mr. Speaker, was what was happening next week. That was the urgency.

MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: The hon. gentleman is now over there stating that the only reason, the real reason why the All Party Committee - in his usual typical, partisan, political, fashion, he is over there now trying to say - and, Mr. Speaker, it just makes your stomach roll when you hear him go on with this - taking advantage of the misery of people to try to make some small political points.

The truth of the matter, Mr. Speaker, is that the All Party Committee went to Ottawa for various reasons, one of which was: yes, the 3,000 or 4,000 people coming off TAGS this year. The hon. gentleman is over there now saying: Oh, that is the reason we all went; and the next thing he is going to say, if we do not get an answer, is, that was all a failure.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to rise today to support my colleague on his petition. I tell you what makes my stomach roll, Mr. Speaker, if the minister want to get into it, it is the people I see every day and this weekend when I was home again, who are filled with anxiety not knowing where they are going tomorrow; and it is not a political game anybody should be playing here, I say to the minister. I talk to them. I do not need the minister to tell me how the people in my district feel, I can tell you that. Those people there are really like a ticking time bomb, I have said it over and over again, and what made my stomach roll, I say to the minister, is the attitude of that bunch up in Ottawa, that is what really got my goat and should have gotten the minister's goat. I believe if he were telling the truth, he would admit it, Mr. Speaker.

The attitude of the media up there, not to any particular Party, the attitude of the media -

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Well, that is what I am saying to you, that is the one we should be upset about.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: The minister is a dork - I mean the minister is in the dark.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, talk to that over there, will you?

MR. SHELLEY: But, Mr. Speaker, what really makes my stomach roll is when you hear the minister talk about that, about the people and the attitude that was up there, from caucus to caucus that we went to and then the national media, the stupid questions they asked. I just made a note while he was making a few comments. You were asking: How much longer do you want this to go on? How many people and so on?

Now, Mr. Speaker, there is no price to put on this because the only answer, and I am quite serious, I kept saying this over and over before I went to Ottawa, by the way, Mr. Speaker, that the TAGS was a failure but I do not want to finish by just saying that. Some things that happened with the last TAGS program were good, some things worked out right. The intent was there, but the problem was, Mr. Speaker, before they had the door all the way knocked down, they stopped beating at the door, because the job was not finished. And with the mentality of the people in Ottawa now, our biggest challenge as Newfoundlanders and Labradorians is to convince them that we are not bloody well up there looking for a job, that it is a way of life; and when I go down to Ming's Bight and Fleur de Lys, Mr. Speaker, and see another truck pulling out, a U-haul, I say, it is ruining this Province.

And I am up there trying to convince some caucus up there, full of Ontario MPs that we are not here for another hand-out, give us a cheque to go back so we can have a welfare cheque. They do not want it, Mr. Speaker, they do not want it and that is what the whole issue is all about. I am sick and tired of our having to go up and beat on their doors. We should not have had to go to Ottawa, because the truth is, Mr. Speaker, if the job was being done right, our minister, would have been up there and made sure that was all in line at the time. It is bloody ridiculous that we have to call caucuses together and go up with an All Party Committee, Mr. Speaker, and beat on them for a while. You would think that the message would have gotten through; that is the way it should have been, Mr. Speaker. They certainly made a smart move on the other side by not sending the Member for Windsor-Springdale, I can tell him that.

Because the point is (inaudible).

So, Mr. Speaker, everybody in this Province, every single Newfoundlander and Labradorian should be sending the message loud and clear, that we are bloody sick of the attitude of those up there including the national media, Mr. Speaker, I do not care where they are from, of an attitude that - Oh, how much are you here for this time? How long do you want us to keep you on the welfare rolls this time? What a sick attitude! And I still say, Mr. Speaker, the fact that some caucuses did not have the decency to show up to hear what we had to say - but I do believe the effectiveness of the Committee.

MR. J. BYRNE: Who was the most effective?

MR. SHELLEY: I will tell you the truth - now, I will not say who was the most effective but I will tell you the truth: I did not think we would be effective when I was first asked to go on this Committee. I said: This must be all - there must be something to this. And I will tell the truth to the minister: I did not think that we would be effective when we first went, because I thought it was all done. I said: This is just a gesture, to go up and say we are an all-party committee - which would be nice and so on. We had to do it. We had to do it when we were asked, Mr. Speaker.

MR. TULK: Is that why you (inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, absolutely. Then, Mr. Speaker, when I got there, not the first week so much but the second week, I said: Gee, maybe it is true, we need to get the message across. Because from that first week to the second week, there was a big difference, I say to the minister. I do not know if we went from zero to four, five or six, as you said, but we did make some progress, we started to get through to them.

When we spoke that night to the Cabinet Committee, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Pettigrew, Mr. Anderson and a few more - I thought I saw them actually trying to at least understand where we were coming from. Because up to that point, one of the ministers had said: We have to consider people in Northern Ontario which has mines shut down, I had a big problem with that and I started to say: The mentality of this group here sitting around the Cabinet table in Ottawa and the 101 MPs from Ontario, there is where the problem lies.

I am going to tell you, Mr. Speaker, if they do not -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: No, and I did not go around bragging as if I were a main player either, like some people did, Mr. Speaker. We just got up when we had our chance, and the truth was if there had been a bit of decency, we would have had a lot more time to say a lot more to a lot more of the Liberal caucus.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, there is no room in this problem for politics, for the types of statements that are being made on the other side of the House.

A month ago my colleague, the Member for Twillingate & Fogo, introduced a resolution in this House of Assembly, April 1, and until he introduced that resolution into the House of Assembly there was not one question and not one comment from members opposite about TAGS.

MR. FITZGERALD: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South, on a point of order.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, Hansard will show that this member asked questions of the Minister of Development and Rural Renewal prior to that resolution being brought forward in the House. If the minister was absent at that particular time, I suggest he read Hansard before he makes such statements.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order. It is a matter of there being a disagreement between two hon. members.

The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: TAGS has been on the go since 1994. The introduction was 1994.

MR. TULK: NCARP, 1992.

MR. EFFORD: NCARP, 1992. And he asked one question. That is a real contribution to the problem, Mr. Speaker; that is a real contribution.

Now, the other day we all decided, through that resolution on April 1, to go to Ottawa. We go to Ottawa as an All Party Committee - as much as it bothered me about who we were taking up there, we go up in the name of the people of this Province.

MR. SHELLEY: Did you not just say politics should play no part in this?

MR. EFFORD: No. I am pointing out what you are doing over there.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. EFFORD: The first thing when we get to Ottawa, with no politics, an All Party Committee representing the people who are destitute, who are driven to destitution here in this Province, through people losing their income on a daily and weekly basis, the first thing certain members on the other side of the House do is go to the phone, phone back and create all kinds of open line controversy, and comments to try to create a disturbance among an All Party Committee which has gone to Ottawa to represent those people. And they say there are no politics being played!

MR. FRENCH: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Conception Bay South, on a point of order.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would just like to remind the minister that on CBC Radio, on the phone-in show, when he was in Ottawa, I thought that the Minister of Fisheries was the only man up there, because he forgot all the members from his own side and he forgot all the members from this side. About twice in his interview I thought he said Minister Tulk was with him, but other than that he never mentioned another soul. So much for the Minister of Fisheries' politics and remaining politically neutral! This minister is really good at that, Mr. Speaker. He is so neutral it is sickening.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) not even on the open line.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order. Again it is a matter of a disagreement between two hon. members.

The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, there is a clear explanation for that. That was the two or three nights after we arrived in Ottawa and my colleague, the Chairman of the Committee, it was only then that he and I had a chance to get on open line because they had it totally taken up for the two or three nights before that. So we definitely had to take the opportunity, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, standing here in the House of Assembly every day, in Petitions, after we all just got back from Ottawa, after we have all made a clear presentation to the people in Ottawa on the need for a post-TAGS program - what is to be gained by standing in the House of Assembly and making accusations on a day-to-day basis about a TAGS program? Ask the hon. members opposite: How many letters have they written to ministers in Ottawa? Show the letters that you have written. How many times have you made a presentation to the ministers in Ottawa on behalf of the people of Newfoundland since 1994?

It is quite obvious, Mr. Speaker, there is a clear message being sent. It is pure politics that they are playing opposite, and if they weren't trying to get their faces in the paper or their voices on the radio they wouldn't be talking about it at all, Mr. Speaker.

 

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Motion No. 1, the Budget Speech.

MR. SPEAKER: Motion No. 1, the hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board, To Move That The House Resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Ways and Means to Consider the Raising of Supply to be Granted to Her Majesty; otherwise known as the Budget Speech.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture can fall asleep when I'm speaking he must be pretty tired from his trips up along and skipping meetings and missing meetings and what have you, I suppose. Hard on the poor man, I would say, if he is that tired.

Anyway, to continue where I left off when I adjourned debate on Thursday afternoon: Mr. Speaker, I was talking about the Budget highlights for 1998. Where I had left off was the $30 million contingency fund. That is what I was speaking about, and talking about a deficit of $10 million that the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board talks about. If he doesn't spend that $30 million he will have a $20 million surplus. If he is going to use it as a slush fund, that is a different matter. I would venture to say that we could be looking at a $20 million surplus this year.

The minister says there are no tax increases in this Budget. Now, Mr. Speaker, I've been on my feet for the past three years and they have been saying there are no tax increases. I've referred to sheet after sheet after sheet full of licences, fees, permits and increases over the past few years. They don't say there is a tax increase, but it is coming out of the pocket of the people of this Province. It is unreal.

One point I want to make is with regard to the $50 million -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I'm going to tell you what the Premier has planned for the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture. The Premier is planning on replacing him. He is talking about replacing the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture with a monkey. That is what they are planning on doing with him.

With respect to the $50 million for school construction and what have you: I've been working hard in my district for the past three or four years trying to get funding for the school down in the District of Cape St. Francis, down in Pouch Cove, to service Pouch Cove, Flatrock, and Bauline. The minister has committed funding for that school time after time. Last year, before the new board took over, the construction board made us jump through so many hoops it was unreal. Every time we would go back to them with that they would ask for more; go back with information, they ask for more. Finally we are going to get it, everything done, worked out. The towns came together on it, the school boards came together on it, the PTAs came together on it, the teachers came together on it. Everybody agreed on a site down there. We finally thought that was the end of it, but no, the minister has come out now and asked for more information.

Hopefully, this week I will meet with representatives of the new construction board, or committee, whatever they want to call it, and a representative from the school board. We are going down to take one last look at the site, and to send a letter to the Minister of Education, who has told me that if we get a letter telling the size of the school, basically, and the location, we will get the funding this year.

I've been trying to keep it fairly quiet, Mr. Speaker, until such time as we have something in writing from the Minister of Education to say that we are going to have funding for that over two years, and to get the kids to go to school there in September, 1999, I say to the Minister of Education. He has told me he wants the kids to go there in September of 1999. So we have to get started this year on the construction of a new school in the Shoe Cove area, to service Pouch Cove, Flatrock and Bauline.

I understand, Mr. Speaker, that the people in the area understand that there will be a K to 9 school, and that is what they have been looking for over the past number of years. I support whatever the people want in the area. If they want a K to 9, K to 8, whatever the case may be, that is what I would support.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: The member has leave.

MR. J. BYRNE: By leave? I have so much to say.

MR. MATTHEWS: You are making a lot of sense, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation says I am making a lot of sense and I agree, Mr. Speaker, I am making a lot of sense.

MR. SHELLEY: I agree with him 100 percent!

MR. J. BYRNE: I am working for my district. I am being paid to be here to work for my district to represent the views of the people in my district and that is what I am doing.

Not only that, Mr. Speaker, we know that the two schools in Pouch Cove, Pouch Cove Elementary and St. Agnes, are old schools and the numbers are low in both schools. When they come together it will, basically, exemplify what the referendum was all about; bringing schools together and having a neighbourhood school, a true neighbourhood school. That is what we were trying to accomplish down there.

I have been trying to sell that for the past number of years, that very argument, what the Minister of Education was trying to accomplish. He had it in his hands in the district of Cape St. Francis, in Pouch Cove, Flatrock and Bauline. It was there for him. Mr. Speaker, I am fully expecting the minister to live up to his commitments to that area and to the people down there.

We have had numerous meetings on the school in Pouch Cove, Flatrock and Bauline. We have had meetings with various boards over the years. They do not exist anymore, there is only one, the Avalon East Board. We had meetings with the previous boards, we had meetings with the construction boards, we had meetings - on Regatta Day this past year, I was trying to get the minister to attend a meeting, the old construction board. That is not this year, back in August of 1997.

I hope, out of that $50 million I saw listed here in the Budget, I think it was $50 million, for school construction - that is what I am after, the district's fair share. There it is: the Newfoundland and Labrador Education Investment Cooperation is established with a commitment of $50 million over the next several years towards construction and upgrading of schools.

The project in the area that we are talking about, Mr. Speaker, is basically a $3 million project according to the figures that have been given to me. But, Mr. Speaker, what it will do for the students in the area is unreal. St. Agnes school now really does not have a cafeteria, or anything of that nature. They have had some fund-raising down there for some computer rooms. The gymnasium is not up to standard. The same thing in Pouch Cove Elementary. So if you bring them together, we have larger numbers and we have more resources for the children of the area. From every prospective, from an educational prospective, from a physical prospective, from a mental prospective, Mr. Speaker, everything is going to be more beneficial to the students. That is what I was fighting for all along.

I have been down to Pouch Cove to public meetings and people wanted me to say that the school should go to Pouch Cove. People in Flatrock wanted me to say that the school should go in Flatrock. I told them from day one that my objective was to get funding for the school.

MR. MATTHEWS: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I supported the students, I say to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, to get a school for the students of my area. It is needed down there, Mr. Speaker.

MR. MATTHEWS: Pouch Cove or Flatrock?

MR. J. BYRNE: It went between the two communities. They looked at sixteen sites and narrowed it down to five, then down to one. Obviously, if everyone agrees upon it, it is the site that should be accepted by the board and by the government. They are continually going back, making us jump through more hoops, Mr. Speaker.

Getting back to my train of thought with respect to the benefits for the students in my district: I think that this new school should be started as soon as possible, that we should be now having the engineering work done, the designs and drawings. The back-hoes and that should be moved in there this summer to start the facility, to get the ground work done and whatever else needs to be done. Then we can work on it over the winter and the schools in the area, the two small schools, can close. All the children can come together in one new school, next fall, in September of 1999. That is what the Minister of Education has committed to me and said should happen and will happen; and I think it can.

One of the members opposite, Mr. Speaker, is nodding his head in agreement and rightly so. Whitbourne is it?

AN HON. MEMBER: Harbour Main.

MR. J. BYRNE: Harbour Main - Whitbourne. I think that's the proper name. He is shaking his head in agreement. Now I think they have a situation out there too, in that area, with respect to the location of a new school to be constructed, in Blaketown and Whitbourne. So he knows what I have gone through, I would say to the member. It is going in where?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Will I repeat you?

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I know where it should go. I will tell you where my school should go, for the district of Cape St. Francis. It should go where the parents agreed upon it, where the schools agreed upon it, where the school boards agreed upon it and where the towns agreed upon. Mr. Speaker, everybody agrees upon it. I don't know - some behind-the-scenes individual seems to have a problem with it, but is not forthcoming and letting me know.

Mr. Speaker, I have talked to the minister numerous times. I am hounding him to death. He is getting tired of me coming to meet with him and talk to him about the school. I think that is one of the reasons why, Mr. Speaker, he is so committed to it. It is because I am driving him mad, Mr. Speaker, and rightly so, he is the Minister of Education. He should be putting money into that school in that area, Mr. Speaker. It is long overdue.

Anyway, I think that's enough on that school for now. We shall see, in due course, if the Minister of Education is a man of his word. I have no reason to doubt him, Mr. Speaker. I understand that we will be meeting again in the near future and hopefully he will be signing on the dotted line saying: The school for Pouch Cove, Flat Rock and Bauline is a go. I have it verbally, Mr. Speaker, I want to get it on paper.

Now if someone asked me for something and I tell them and they have my word then, it is as good as written in stone, Mr. Speaker; you don't need me to sign any paper. But if that is what it takes on the other side -

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible) you don't know.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh yes, I would say.

Now, with respect to what is happening in this Budget, Mr. Speaker, with respect to out-migration. Now we all know that one of the single biggest problems that this Province faces is out-migration and the Minister of Fisheries is over there shaking his head in agreement. Now if we could get as many people to come into this Province as the minister would like to see seals disappear, we would be all right. He was up today talking - well I will not get into that because he put his foot in his mouth today, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, and I kind of felt bad for him.

Now out-migration, Mr. Speaker, in this Province is at an all time high. When we talk about out-migration on this side of the House some of the ministers on the other side get up and relate it to - they say if you take the TAGS or the downfall in the fishery out of the picture, the out-migration is higher in previous years than it is today. But if you look at the study that was done here and was only made public last week, they say that the out-migration is not directly related to the downfall in the fishery because the people who are leaving the Province are the younger people. Fifteen to twenty-five is it? That is the thing, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: Nineteen to thirty years old.

MR. J. BYRNE: Nineteen to thirty years old. These are the people who are leaving the Province. So we have to address the out-migration in this Province.

Here is something, I say to the Member for Twillingate, here is a novel idea maybe, Mr. Speaker. We have existed in this Province for 500 years. We settled here for the fishery. Five hundred or 600 communities along the coastline survived for 500 years on the inshore fishery. Maybe what we should be looking at is putting the fishermen back in the waters with the small boats, going out so far and not allowing any of those big trawlers and factory-freezer trawlers coming in and taking our fish. The inshore fishermen, if those people could -

MR. EFFORD: How can you stand in your place for twenty minutes and say absolutely nothing?

MR. SHELLEY: Easy. We watch you all the time.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I came into this House of Assembly in 1993 and the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture says: How can you stand in your place for twenty minutes and say absolutely nothing? Now, Mr. Speaker, when I came in here first I was looking at the people on the other side of the House basically - there were a lot of them - and the one that used to stand up the longest and say the least, Mr. Speaker, was the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture. He is still at it today, Mr. Speaker, and he is questioning me? The nerve, Mr. Speaker!

Now back to the communities and how we can revitalize the rural communities in this Province. If we have to allow the inshore fishery to go with the small boats, the hand line, and maybe the cod traps and what have you, instead of gill nets, maybe we can revitalize rural Newfoundland. That is what we existed on. We have to put a proper fishery in place. That is another point. We have yet to understand what the fishery of the future is going to be, Mr. Speaker.

We have the Minister of Fisheries, who is all the time talking about sealing, what we should be doing with the seals and what have you - and rightfully so; it is the major, major factor in the return of the codfish to our waters, Mr. Speaker - but the Minister of Fisheries has not told us, neither the Minister of Fisheries provincially or the Minister of Fisheries nationally, what the future fishery is going to be. Is it going to be the inshore fishery with a lot of people going out in the small boats? Is that going to be our main objective in the future? Or, are we going to continue -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: You do not have to tell me. You should be telling the people of the Province. That is who is paying your salary. That is who elected you. That is who you are here to represent, I say to the Minister of Fisheries. That is who you should be telling, so the people can get on with their lives, so they know what they can do.

Is it going to be an inshore fishery which is going to be the main objective? Is it going to be the FPIs and the National Seas of the world going out in the big factory trawlers, or whatever the case may be, and cleaning out the fishery, Mr. Speaker? What is it going to be? Is it going to be something in between, middle distance? I do not know. Nobody knows. But people need to get on with their lives, and that is how we need to revitalize, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Not at all. I am asking a question, Mr. Speaker. What is it going to be? I am not running down anybody, I say to the Member for -

AN HON. MEMBER: The Member for Bellevue was running him down.

MR. J. BYRNE: The Member for Bellevue, was he running him down?

AN HON. MEMBER: He said it is not their problem.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, the Member for Bellevue said it was not their problem? Did he say that, really? What did he say was not their problem? In the House?

AN HON. MEMBER: TAGS.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, the Member for Bellevue said that TAGS was not our problem?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Did you hear what I said? The Member for Bellevue walks in here and says I am tearing down National Sea. I said no such thing. I never said one negative word toward National Sea or FPI, or anybody. All I am doing is asking the Minister of Fisheries: What are the plans for the future with respect to the fishery in this Province, with respect to the revitalization of the rural communities in this Province, Mr. Speaker.

Now, let us move on to some of the other points that I wanted to make. Now, here is one. Government has consulted with the people and is making investments in education, health care, and the reform of our social programs.

What do we see, Mr. Speaker? Two weeks before the Budget came down, we saw the minister going around the Province with the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island and consulting, two weeks before the Budget. Now, Mr. Speaker, let's get real here in this Province. What impact did that really have? Or, were the decisions already made? Were the decisions already made?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I say to the Minister of Fisheries, what are you asking?

MR. EFFORD: Eternity is not long enough (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I would say to the Minister of Fisheries... The comment he just made, just in case the mikes could not pick it up for Hansard, was: Eternity is not long enough for me to get real.

I will say to the Minister of Fisheries, I am probably the most realistic person in this House. And the most unrealistic, of course, is everyone on that side of the House over there. Now, let me see what other points I want to make here. I have all kinds of notes here, Mr. Speaker. I have so many to pick from, I really don't know what...

Consultation is what I am talking about now. It says that no new lay-offs are anticipated. Well, Mr. Speaker, that leads me to the morale in the civil service. Four years ago, I think, if you dig up Hansard, you will see that I was the first one to bring up the morale of the civil service - four years ago - in this House of Assembly. Now we have untold, I do not know how many, thousands of people laid off in the civil service. Husbands and wives going out the door, no human factor, no more human feelings at all, just numbers, going out the door the same day, husband and wife with the civil service, and there are no anticipated new lay-offs.

Well, I hope not, Mr. Speaker. It is long overdue that there should not be any new lay-offs in the civil service, but I have to ask a question.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, I do not expect the question to be answered, Mr. Speaker, just rhetorical questions here. There is no point in asking questions now because you will not get answers anyway, but it is our duty to ask questions.

I travel around this building a fair bit, Mr. Speaker, between here and the West Block, and I see so many new faces in this building, I am wondering how many people are actually being hired on or hired back. I was going to bring up a point, but I am going to save it for Question Period and see if I can get an answer out of the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board. I think he will answer this one but I am not going to ask it now. I won't ask it, I will save it.

It says: The government will continue to press the federal government for increased funding for health care now that the federal deficit has been eliminated.

So if they gave us back $150 million a year they would only be giving back some of what they cut over the past few years. I might remind you, Mr. Speaker, that it was a Liberal Administration in Ottawa that was doing all the cutting. There has been a Liberal Administration over the past number of years that has been cutting services in this Province.

Another point, here is one. This regressive tax, of course, is the tax on..., the payroll tax. Effective in the 1998 taxation year the $100,000 exemption for payroll tax will be increased to $120,000. If I can remember correctly, when that tax was brought in first by the previous Administration it was $300,000. So if you had a small company that had to pay a payroll of $300,000 or less, they would not have to pay the payroll tax. But no, that tax on jobs was not hard enough. They had to come in and reduce that to $100,000. So if you have a small company with three or four employees, we had to make sure we taxed them to make sure they could not create another job. No, be careful.

Anyway, it was cut down to $100,000. So if you had three or four employees, a small company, which the future of this country depends on, small companies, to create jobs, what they want now is to make sure they tax you so that you do not create jobs. I know small companies out there that have told me they would not go over the limit because they would have to pay a tax. Isn't that shocking? That is shameful, that they would put a tax on jobs in this Province.

The other points we need to look at, of course, are some of the mega-projects. Voisey's Bay going to be the saviour. Last year, Voisey's Bay -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) payroll tax (inaudible)?

MR. J. BYRNE: So we would not be allowed to create jobs here; to force people to leave the Province; so they can get the population from 500,000 down to 300,000. That is why it was brought in. It was the idea, the dream of the previous Premier, to make sure that we got the out-migration up; get as many people out of this Province as possible. As a matter of fact, on that side of the House - I have to tell you this now - they talk about the welfare rolls going down. No wonder. With the number of people leaving this Province, no wonder the rolls are gone down. Surely every day young people -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) my district (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: They are what? All out in your district working? The Member for Bellevue has some opinion of himself, I would say, Mr. Speaker, all of them out in his area working.

Anyway, the Voisey's Bay project. Last year, a few years ago, we all thought: Thank God. The government was pushing it like you would not believe, and there was going to be a smelter here and a smelter there. I think every district in the Province was getting a smelter during the last election. Every district in the Province, according to the Liberals, was getting a smelter in the last election, and we still don't have one, do we? How many jobs have been created?

MR. EFFORD: Seventy-five (inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: That is about as realistic as a smelter.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, that is about as realistic as a smelter.

If we had a proper Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture you might have seventy-five fish plants going, I say to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture. Who knows? You just said seventy-five, didn't you? I am only quoting the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

With respect to, as I said, Voisey's Bay, where are the jobs? Where is the smelter? I hope it is forthcoming, I honestly pray for it, Mr. Speaker. We have the Churchill Falls deal that is going to be a deal if we can agree to agree on something. That is what it is going to be. We hope and pray that we can see a transmission line to this Island. There is going to be a transmission line to this Island.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) going to be a deal.

MR. J. BYRNE: I hope so, I hope there is going to be a deal. I hope we get it. But if we do not get a transmission line to this Island, what is going to happen, I say? Are we were going to have cheap electricity, power, for somebody to compete with us? I think it has to be a major, major factor that we get a transmission line to this Island for industry.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: I said, you would be amazed (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Wishful thinking, my son. Wishful thinking, I say to the Member for Bellevue, wishful thinking.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I would probably do better than what I am doing here with respect to money. Oh, I would make more money at it, that's for sure.

AN HON. MEMBER: What a speech (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: The Member for Labrador West says, what a speech. He is trying to be facetious there in saying what a speech that Charest gave us this week, referring to the Liberal convention. But, at least they now have one member in the Liberal Party throughout the country who knows what he is talking about, and he learned that before he went with the Liberal Party, I say to Member for Labrador West. They finally have an individual, and where did he come from, Mr. Speaker? He had to come from the roots of the Tory Party of this country. That is who they had to go and beg, borrow or steal, any way they could, to get Mr. Charest to join the Liberal Party of Quebec, and they should be over there hanging their heads in shame when they have a Prime Minister of the country who could not do anything. We have the Minister of Finance, the next Liberal leader of the federal Liberal Party, Paul Martin, although we have other people who have ambitions, no doubt -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: Paul Martin doesn't have a chance.

MR. J. BYRNE: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, we have Paul Martin who is going to be the next leader of the Liberal Party federally. We have other people who have ambitions, who up along have $1,000-a-plate dinners - I will not refer to them, no need to name them - fund-raising up in Toronto. Who was up there, I wonder? Who was at that? Was anybody on that side of the House at that?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: And they have the gall over there to even mention Jean Charest's name. My goodness, Mr. Speaker, I cannot get over it. I cannot get over it at all, Mr. Speaker. They had to go after a Tory, a leader of the Tory Party, to become a leader of a provincial Liberal Party, to save them. What happened? Why didn't the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador go to Quebec and become Premier? He can speak French now, I understand. He is taking lessons. Why didn't he go over?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, he didn't, did he? The former Premier of New Brunswick, McKenna, did he go? No. Is he a Liberal? Yes, he was Liberal. Who else is out there, Mr. Speaker? They had to get a Tory, and they have the audacity over there to even mention his name to us. Shameful, shameful, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: Do you know what I was told once? Scratch any Tory and you'll find a turncoat.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, well, well! Oh, well, just move over two seats to your right and make a scratch! Make two scratches, two seats to your right. Have a talk to the Minister of Environment and Labour; have a talk to the Minister of HRD; have a talk to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation; have a talk to all of those. Make a few scratches on that side of the House!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. J. BYRNE: Mulroney's 500 Club is sitting just to your right, in front of you. Now, make a few scratches over there. Be quiet, my son, you are only getting yourself in deeper.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. J. BYRNE: You are only getting yourself in deeper over there. It is hard to pick a seat over there now to sit in that would not be a Tory seat, I would say, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. J. BYRNE: Did he ever run for a nomination? Not likely. No, sirree, there is none on this side, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, that is what he is not. Tory to the core, Mr. Speaker. What a crowd on that side of the House, Mr. Speaker. Oh, the nerve to even mention it.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to get on to this Budget. What other mega-projects are on the go, I say to the -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SHELLEY: The big announcement about the gas project down in Marystown.

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, yes, the big announcement a few years ago, with the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology and the Premier going to Marystown with this big announcement about the gas facility going to be down there. Nothing became of that, Mr. Speaker, nothing at all. We have a Minister now of Development and Rural Renewal who is doing what? Who is doing what in this Province, Mr. Speaker? Nothing! People are still leaving right, left and center. No jobs, Mr. Speaker, and that is what has to happen in this Province. We have to get a few jobs, Mr. Speaker.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I have so much more to say. I have reams and reams of notes here, Mr. Speaker. Let me dig out a few now. Here! `... Newfoundlanders are leaving the Province in record numbers.' Stats Can says, Mr. Speaker. Look at that, shrank by 3,128 in 1996 and 2,126 in 1997. Mr. Speaker, it is unreal!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) a lot of information there.

MR. J. BYRNE: Information, there is too much here to - now I have to take my glasses off here now to look at some of the stuff I have here.

Here is one, Mr. Speaker, under the Budget highlights, `... Government will add 200 of the 425 teaching positions that would have been eliminated based on declining enrollment.' Now, Mr. Speaker, is that not the typical approach of this Administration? Sending out all kinds of fears that this is going to happen: `There are going to be 2,000 lay-offs but we will only lay off 1,000' - that type of an approach all the time. `We are going to lay off 425 teachers but we will add back 200 teachers.' Now that is what is going on in this Province today. We have to get a government that is going to be up front and forthright with the people of this Province. We are going to have to get a government that rules on principle, Mr. Speaker, rather than polls. Mr. Speaker, they cannot go outside and see what way the wind is unless they have a poll done to tell them what they are going to do. Mr. Speaker, they rule on poll principle not principles alone.

MR. SPEAKER (Oldford): On a point of order, the hon. the Member for Twillingate & Fogo.

MR. G. REID: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Cape St. Francis said we laid off 425 teachers - that is not correct. We laid off far, far, fewer than that. In fact, at the end of the day, no teacher will lose his or her job. We will be actually hiring an extra couple of hundred teachers.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Now, Mr. Speaker, may I continue?

Now, let me correct the Member for Twillingate & Fogo. If he was listening properly and I am sure there is no trouble to hear me, I said in the Budget here - this is your own notes now - Budget highlights, put out by the government of this Province, Mr. Speaker, it says, `... government will add back 200 of 425 teaching positions that would have been eliminated.' `Would have been' I never said they were gone. I am saying they put out the fear -

MR. G. REID: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, no, no. You should pay attention and know what is in your Budget highlights, I say to the Member for Twillingate & Fogo.

So now, again, `an additional seventy units will be provided to help those children with special needs and other disabilities.' Now, I have to say, that is a good move. A positive small step. A small step but it is something that we agree with on this side of the House. It is too bad it is not double that or triple that but it is a small step in the right direction with respect to education in this Province.

It says, `... government will make a contribution of $3 million to the Memorial University's Opportunity Fund, bringing its total contribution to date to $9.3 million.' Now, Mr. Speaker, with respect to Memorial University, that is another $9.3 million. We know that the Auditor General wants to go in there and do a full and proper audit of Memorial University's funding and expenditures. Something like $134 million of public monies is being spent by the University and from what I can gather and in discussions with the Auditor General, they have some problems getting the information. She can go in there and do an audit but she has some problems with certain information to be forthcoming from Memorial University. I think that the Auditor General should have full and uncontrolled access to all records, books, accounting statements and whatever the case may be from Memorial University so she can do a full and proper audit.

Mr. Speaker, the monthly earning exemptions for those families with dependants on income support will increase from $100 to $150. A small step, Mr. Speaker, positive but not nearly enough.

Government will be spending $16 million on provincial road construction and improvements, Mr. Speaker; not nearly, nearly enough, I would say, $16 million, not nearly enough to be spent on the roads in this Province. Mr. Speaker, I could spend double that in my district alone, and I know the Minister of Fisheries certainly would agree that I should have that money to spend in my district.

MR. SHELLEY: Make note that the minister agrees. He will represent you in Cabinet.

MR. J. BYRNE: Another point that we should address, I suppose, in the Budget, is the cuts. There were supposed to be no cuts this year, Mr. Speaker, but all the cuts were announced last year.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Wait until you find something out, buddy, wait until you find out!

Mr. Speaker, the cuts were all announced last year and they are going to be implemented this year and next year, whatever the case may be; but they were not announced the second time around, they were not announced four and five times like anything positive. The negative part is always hidden, Mr. Speaker, and it is hidden in this Budget this year, no doubt about it. They will be implemented this year.

Now, Mr. Speaker, some of these ads: What is it costing the Province to spend on some straight talk about the Churchill River power projects? How much money are we spending on these ads, Mr. Speaker? I don't know. I expect it is probably $1,000 a shot for one of these ads, I would think, full-page ads.

AN HON. MEMBER: More than that.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is it?

AN HON. MEMBER: They are paying that much for the taxes.

MR. J. BYRNE: There you go. I am not going to make a comment on that, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: What is your position on that?

MR. J. BYRNE: What is my position on that? I will tell you what my position is on the Churchill Falls deal. My position is that hopefully it comes to fruition. The transmission line to the Island is very important, but it has to be done right this time, Mr. Speaker. My fear is that we have an Administration, that same party that was in power when we did the Upper Churchill Falls - it has to be done right.

AN HON. MEMBER: What is your position?

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the people on that side of the House are quite clear in asking me what my position is. I wonder what the position of the Member for Labrador West is. Is he going to get up and say a few works on this Budget, Mr. Speaker? I am not sure he is going to.

Now, another point I think we should also address with respect to this Budget, Mr. Speaker, is a referral to the Auditor General's Report that was presented almost the same day, within days of the Budget. The Auditor General had some serious questions with respect to some of the privatization that went on over the past few years. Of course, Newfoundland Hardwoods was one of those.

I have asked questions in this House of Assembly of the Minister of Finance with respect to the $7 million that we were supposed to receive, but only received $5.6 million. It is a difference of $1.4 million, Mr. Speaker. There is supposed to be a 10 per cent net income until the year 2000. We do not have the financial statements for 1996 and 1997. So, how does the Province know if we got 10 per cent of the net income of the new company, Mr. Speaker?

Another point that needs to be addressed is: They were supposed to spend $39,000 on consultant fees, Mr. Speaker. The consultant fees went from $39,000 up to $900,000. Shameful!

Think we should tell them, Mr. Speaker?

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: Anyway, the Industrial Benefits Agreement for Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services: There have been, I believe, three annual reports put in but the government has not reviewed the reports or confirmed or verified the reports, Mr. Speaker. So, how do we know if the benefits that were negotiated have been met? These are some of the things that need to be addressed, Mr. Speaker.

A couple of the companies involved, Mr. Speaker, have not lived up to their commitments. I will not necessarily get into those right now. Those are some things, I think, for the PAC and what have you.

Another point in the Budget, Mr. Speaker, that needs to be looked at is the Health Care Corporation of St. John's; some serious questions there, of course. I think I may have mentioned this once or twice before in the House of Assembly. The Health Care Corporation of St. John's, Mr. Speaker, has already had a report done by the Auditor General presented to the Public Accounts Committee. There are some problems with respect to the numbers government is using over the past years.

I think when they first started out, for re-organization purposes, the Health Care Corporation in and around St. John's was something like $300 million. Then it went down to $100 million. Now it is up to $137 million, and that does not include the purchasing of the Grace and St. Clare's and what have you. That does not include those figures, and it does not include the relocation fees of the Janeway and the capital expenditure for equipment and what have you for the Janeway. It does not include fees for closing down the Janeway and the Grace. She has some questions there that need to be addressed. We have to look at the complete accuracy of the figures.

Over the past few years, of course, the Health Care Corporation has had some deficits. I do not know if theirs are going to be included in the re-organization costs for the Health Care Corporation for St. John's. In 1996-1997, it was a $4.8 million deficit, in 1997-1998, it was a $6.8 million, and in 1998-1999 it was a $10 million deficit, a total of $21.6 million over three years, I say to you. What impact will that have on the cash flow for the Health Care Corporation of St. John's? Can the objectives be met by the amount of money that is being put in?

I think government is talking about saving something like $20.5 million per year: $13.5 million of which will be used to finance the $130 million which is supposed to be the figure to restructure the Health Care Corporation of St. John's, and $7.2 million will go back into health care. I do not know if those numbers are realistic. Hopefully they are. Because if they are not realistic, next year, along with the structural deficit that we have inherent in the system because of the way the money has been spent over the past few years, that it is going to be even a worse situation. That is why I expect we will not see another budget in this House of Assembly before an election. We will probably have an election before next March 31, or slightly thereafter. They may close the House to call an election next spring, if not earlier, so they will not have to deal with this, get it by the people, and then hit them hard in the first year of a mandate.

Mr. Speaker, the best laid plans of mice and men... The members on that side of the House should keep that in mind, that plans do not always work out. We have plans on this side of the House, too, to foil the plans of the Premier of the Province for re-election. Realistic plans, we have. I do not know if that side has realistic plans.

Some other things that the Budget, I suppose, and the Auditor General's Report, is the problem with the vehicle fleet management. The vehicle fleet management was supposed to be cut down to somewhere around 400 or 500 vehicles, but it is still up to 869. The cost to purchase those vehicles is something like $15 million. The cost to maintain and operate those vehicles per year is $15 million. We have a system in place which is very questionable with respect to the proper controls on the use of vehicles. The use of credit cards with these vehicles was not properly -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, I have all kinds of notes.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The member asked for leave and was granted leave some time ago.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible)!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) ask for leave.

MR. J. BYRNE: I did, yes. When I got up. I had two minutes left when I got up.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The member asked for leave and was granted leave.

MR. J. BYRNE: I asked for leave.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Leave is withdrawn.

The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Are you rising on a point of order?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: You want to talk, do you?

AN HON. MEMBER: Are you on a point of order?

MR. SHELLEY: No, are you?

MR. SPEAKER: I recognized the Member for Baie Verte. He rose to speak prior to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture rising.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, my first -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Do you want to speak? No, does he want to speak? You go (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader, on a point of order.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I hope the matter has been ratified, because it is normal that we go back and forth across the House. As I understand, the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture rose to enter into debate.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I sat through thirty minutes which seemed to be thirty hours listening to all of the so-called points that the hon. member made on the opposite side. I cannot believe, but I want to read the amendment. I think members opposite should listen to this: To move the following amendment - an amendment that should be read out in the House -

...this House acknowledge that government's ability to manage competently the Province's finances, its ability to live up to its duty and its promise to provide adequate direction and funding for social programs such as health and services, its ability to secure the future of our Province by investing appropriately in educating students and its ability to discharge effectively its responsibility to plan for and invest in economic recovery and employment growth in the Province, particularly in rural areas so desperately in need of development and jobs.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is not the amendment.

MR. EFFORD: That is the amendment as I see it, Mr. Speaker. That is the type of amendment that should be written to a government who performed after such an abysmal mess that we took over in 1989.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. EFFORD: That was the amendment. Let me talk about it, Mr. Speaker. When the Liberals went out of power in 1971-1972, they left a debt in this Province of $800 million. When the Tories went out of power in 1989, they left in excess of $7 billion in debt. Since 1989, we have had to spend our total time managing the Province's finances in order to make up and get rid of that extraordinary waste of money that they carried on for over a decade - over $7 billion.

Let me tell you what they proposed in the last election. One of the proposals in the last election by the former government: we will put $75 million in the Province in the economy, in the industry today, to build 75 new fish plants.

MR. TULK: Are you serious? Repeat it so I can hear it.

MR. EFFORD: Seventy-five million dollars to build and to open 75 new fish plants. Now, in 1989 when we took over the government there were 335 existing fish plants in the Province - 335 fish plants in the Province. Two years ago, when I took over as minister, there were 245 fish plants and they want to open another 75 new fish plants. Now, that is managing the economy at a time when the whole of the groundfish industry was closed down. There is an opportunity for economic development. The former Minister of Finance, the hon. John Collins, what was it he said: Kick-start the industry, kick-start the economy.

AN HON. MEMBER: Bill Marshall said the Premier was going to over-heat the economy.

MR. EFFORD: Over-heat the economy. There is a sure way of over-heating the economy, when you could not create an opportunity in rural Newfoundland today to expand the fishing industry, to put an extra 75 new plants in the fishing industry and get them to operate. At a time when the whole groundfish industries is closed down, that is a brilliant way to kick-start and overheat the economy, Mr. Speaker. There is a time when we all get jubilant in Newfoundland and we all - Mr. Speaker, over $7 billion in debt in 1989. The first time, after all that debt we had to take over and manage and get our house in order, the first time in the history of the Province that this government have brought in a balanced Budget, and of all the financial problems that we have had, after all of trying to get the house back in order not only in the fishing industry, not only in education, not only in the health industry, it has been in all other services, in all industries across the Province that were involved by government, what did we do? We brought in a balanced Budget. Make no wonder they would introduce such an amendment to the resolution that this House acknowledged the government's ability to manage the Province's finances. That is a congratulatory amendment, not an amendment to condemn, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member talked about spending money and wasting money - and I just forget one of the references he made but let me tell him about the - the hon. member should be aware of cigars. Let us talk about cigars; let us talk about the rented -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. EFFORD: Oh, I know what it was. The hon. member was making reference to the ads that were taken out about the Churchill. Well, Mr. Speaker, it is time to put some good news in this Province; it is time to build up the confidence of the people and tell the people of this Province there is a hope for the future. What is wrong with creating a positive attitude?

One of the biggest problems we have had in this Province over the past number of years is: No hope for the future, negative attitude consuming our young people. Make no wonder when I speak to people in high schools they say: `The first thing I am going to do is leave the Province,' and I ask: `Why? Why would you want to leave the Province?' `Well, there are no opportunities in this Province.' I ask: `What do you mean, there are no opportunities?' `Well, that is what I hear every day; that is what I have been told every day.' So, we create, we turn around and give our young people hope for the future, as they said, the educated, the cream of the crop, those people are leaving every day, and if you look at rural Newfoundland and Labrador, and you look at the out-migration, it is not all because of the closure of the fishery or the downturn in the fishery.

It is not because we have had some problems in the forest industry; it is simply because the young people of this Province are not given any hope. They first thing they are told around the kitchen table in the communities, in the schools is: There are no opportunities in Newfoundland. To take out an ad to run a little bit of good news in the local papers or in the papers around the Province, Mr. Speaker, is the right thing to do. There is no cost that can be put on that because our young people need to be encouraged to take the advantages that are there.

But let me go back to pre-1989. What type of expenditures did we have pre-1989? Let us talk about cigars; let us talk about the limousine services; let us talk about when you drive up to a hotel and the Premier of the Province gives a $250-tip for a limousine. That is a waste of money, Mr. Speaker, that is what contributed towards the massive debt, irresponsible actions and the good living are what contributed to the wasteful management of the affairs.

AN HON. MEMBER: How much did (inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: If we had not had to take over that massive debt that we took over in 1989, according to the way the Minister of Finance has managed that debt and got it under control and got the deficit under control since 1989, if we had not had to manage that debt, can you imagine where we would be today? Can you just imagine where this Province would be today with its economy and with its ability to create opportunities in rural Newfoundland and Labrador? What we need to do?

AN HON. MEMBER: What did Joey start off with in 1949?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, what was the surplus then?

MR. EFFORD: When Joey started off in 1949, Mr. Speaker, I do not think there were too many hospitals in Newfoundland; I do not think there were too many roads in Newfoundland. I do not think there were too many schools in Newfoundland, I do not think there was too many municipal service in Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker. Let us go back to 1949 when we joined Canada and what we had, not only in rural Newfoundland but anywhere around Newfoundland and Labrador. Let us look at what was there when he went out of power twenty-five years later, then let us look at what was there when they took over power in 1972 and look what was there when they went out of power in 1989. There is a major difference, Mr. Speaker. Give credit where credit is due. We did not have a road in this Province worth driving over or walking over; we did not have a decent hospital in the Province, in rural Newfoundland and Labrador; we did not have any decent schools in Newfoundland, and everything started to change, Mr. Speaker. But I will tell you what we had after ten years of Tory rule. We had 340-plus fish plants and the will and desire by the next leader to create another seventy-five fish plants in the Province. That is what we had.

Out on the Avalon Peninsula, where I live, fifty-seven fish plants. Now, there is managing finances! I have not even gotten to the pickle factories yet. We have got to the resources, where the resources were, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

AN HON. MEMBER: How much did the House cost (inaudible)?

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, the House never cost one-tenth of what was dumped in Robin Hood Bay. The House never cost one-tenth of what the dump trucks hauled out to Robin Hood Bay.

MR. TULK: Even the cows would not eat it.

MR. EFFORD: Even the cows would not eat it, Mr. Speaker.

If we want to talk about what was wasted, let us get down to `Bev's dip', another waste of money.

AN HON. MEMBER: Do you have the book?

MR. EFFORD: I do not need the book anymore, I can remember it, when all of those famous Newfoundland wives of the famous politicians created that pickle book, and distributed it around the Province, in rural Newfoundland where there was going to be a pickle factory in every community in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, as my hon. colleague said: You talk about creating pickle factories, when they could not even get the cows to eat it. They took it out to Robin Hood Bay and the gulls would not even touch it.

Mr. Speaker, there is hope for this Province, there is a lot of hope, there is a bright future. The one thing that we all have to do in this Province is we have to get serious. We have to look at the youth of this Province and we have to start encouraging the parents of this Province and the people responsible in this Province to start talking positively. There is absolutely no reason why so many young people would be leaving this Province looking for job opportunities in other parts of Canada if they were encouraged to stay here at home and look at the opportunities in this Province. But there is so much negative talk - every time an Opposition member phones into the open line show, every time you open up a newspaper, every time to go to a community, it is negative, negative, negative, negative. We waste so much time talking about negative things in this Province, Mr. Speaker, and the only people who are paying the price for it are the young people.

MR. TULK: And that is a Tory (inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: That is it. That is what I am referring to. Listen to the open line show in the night-time: Roger Fitzgerald from Bonavista South, Bob French from -

AN HON. MEMBER: The sky is falling in.

MR. EFFORD: The sky is falling in, Mr. Speaker. That is the total topic of conversation.

AN HON. MEMBER: Doom and gloom from Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South, on a point of order.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has been here long enough to know that he cannot refer to members of the House of Assembly by their names.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: `John', use the words BS, Bonavista South.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Would the minister, in future, refer to the member by his district please?

MR. EFFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: To promise to provide direction and funding for social programs such as health and social services; the ability to secure the future of our Province by investing appropriately in education and students: Mr. Speaker, look at -

MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Government House Leader, on a point of order.

MR. TULK: It is some good to see what my friend from Port de Grave is doing. He has the hon. gentleman, the Member for Waterford Valley, pulling out his latest edition of Beauchesne, the one he used and then got told to put away right after Christmas

Mr. Speaker, I say to the hon. gentleman, when the gentleman was brought to order by the Chair, all he needs to do is just from now on refer to the Member for Bonavista South as the Member for BS.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Let me get back to the amendment, Mr. Speaker. The ability to secure the future of our Province by investing appropriately in education and students. That is the point I was making about the young people, a well-educated group of young people, as well educated as anybody else anywhere in this country.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. EFFORD: The hon. member should go back to where - he needs his hands digging those holes in the ground.

To discharge effectively its responsibility to plan for and invest in the economic recovery and growth -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: You have me distracted now, Mr. Speaker. - the recovery and employment growth in a province.

Last year - and this is another one of the negative things that have been talked about around the Province all the time. I heard it today at lunch down at the hotel, where there were a lot of prominent business people and bank managers, investors from across Canada, actually, at the Delta Hotel. It was the FPI annual report -

AN HON. MEMBER: Shareholders' meeting.

MR. EFFORD: Shareholders' meeting.

I was talking to one gentleman from Ontario and a guy from one of the banks in Nova Scotia, and they talked about the fishing industry in Newfoundland - and we do this ourselves, by the way. We do the negative, we cause this ourselves. They were talking about the fishing industry of Newfoundland, and the mess it is in, and how much longer is the TAGS going to go on, and why is there nothing happening in the fishing industry?

There were people standing around me from Newfoundland, major people involved in major businesses in this Province, and they all seem to have themselves convinced that there is nothing happening in the fishing industry, and when I just simply said these few words: Last year, 1997, $575 million worth of fish exports out of this Province - $575 million dollars! - 21,000 people were employed last year in the fishing industry.

AN HON. MEMBER: Twenty-what?

MR. EFFORD: Twenty-one thousand; $575 million! Instead of 245 so-called fish plants operating in the Province, we have less than 100, which provided seasonal employment to $10,500 plant workers and 10,300 fish harvesters in the fishing industry in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador; and every time you turn on the radio, every time you read the newspaper, you hear the negative.

AN HON. MEMBER: John, when we get that billion dollar diversification fund we will take care of it.

MR. EFFORD: Then we will take care of it.

The point I am making, Mr. Speaker, is: Why is there always negative talk? There are a lot of things happening in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, and there are a lot of opportunities out there. There are more opportunities for our youth today, our educated youth, in the fishing industry than ever there was in the history of the Province.

The modern fish plants today are all computerized. Every shrimp or every piece of fish that goes through the modern fish plants around rural Newfoundland today is computerized. There are dozens and dozens of jobs for well-trained people in every fish plant, besides the processing and the normal work you would carry on in the fish plant, and very few of our young people see that.

In the fish harvesting, in order to be a fisherman today and be productive and make a contribution and earn a living from the fish plant, you have to have an education. There is no way you can get aboard one of those boats today and use the technology, use the equipment, go out to the fishing grounds and be competitive, be productive and earn a living, without an education. Why are we not telling more of that to our young people? Why are we not saying that there are job opportunities in the industry around there, and the better educated our people are in an industry like that, the more jobs will be created.

In marketing alone in the fishing industry there are hundreds of jobs on an annual basis, full-time jobs, not seasonal jobs. In quality control there are hundreds of jobs, not seasonal jobs, in value-added and secondary processing.

Mr. Speaker, we have opportunities here in this Province, in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. There is absolutely no reason why we should be talking in any manner creating a negative attitude and destroying the minds of our young people and encouraging them to leave the Province because they say there is nothing happening here.

Look at the forest industry itself in this day and age, the value-added things. I listen to people who I have heard down in Central Newfoundland and other areas in Newfoundland, what they are doing with wood today. One time we would take the log off the stump, we would bring it to the plant, you would saw a piece of two-by-four or a piece of tongue-in-groove, and that was it; that was what was done out of it. Now we are taking it to its full value-added. About 85 per cent of the log is being used. The sawdust is being used. The slabs are being used for wood chips. Eighty-five per cent of the value-added, manufactured into new products that were never ever done here in this Province.

Mr. Speaker, I have said this many times. If we looked at and appreciated the value of the resource that we have here in this Province between the fishery, the forestry, the mining, and the oil industry, with a population of a little over 500,000 people, if any other province - or any other country, I should say - had the vast amount of resources that we have here in our Province, and over the decade had developed it to the advantage of people here in this Province, we would not be in the financial mess we are in today.

The previous government, had it not wasted the $6 billion that they did, and utilized it in a business-like manner, we would not have the out-migration of people that we have in this Province. We would not have the fishing industry close in this Province. The hon. Member for Cape St. Francis mentioned about the factory-freezer trawlers, will they come back. We are on record in this Province, in 1985 to 1989, of condemning the government of the day for bringing in factory-freezer trawlers. We said that day, that would be the destruction of the fishing industry in Newfoundland.

So let's go back a few days, and let's look at the things that have happened in this Province, and why we are in the mess we are in. Who allowed vessels to go out there and fish 365 days a year through the height of the spawning season when fish congregated together? Who allowed all of the fish to be wasted, to come into the Province and be shipped out of the Province unprocessed? Who allowed the jobs to go down in Boston or jobs in other parts of Canada and other parts of the world, of unprocessed shellfish going out? Jobs in China. What government stopped it? What policy did we bring in two years ago? Any fish, regardless of the species, that would be caught in Newfoundland must be processed in Newfoundland. No more jobs being exported out of this Province in the fishing industry.

Similar to the forest industry; the products are now being sawed, cut, and processed, value-added, in this Province. The jobs are not going out to some other part of Canada, to some other part of the world. We are now, as a government, utilizing the resources to the value and the advantage of the people in this Province.

What about the mining industry, Voisey's Bay? The Premier of this Province is on record with a very clear message: No smelter, no refining, no mine. That is the way it should be. That is the way all of our resources should be. If it is not going to be done here in this Province, then it is not going to be done anywhere. That is the reason we are in the mess we are in today, because we never ever utilized the resources to the advantage of the opportunities of the young people in this Province who were getting educated, and who had no other choice in those days but to leave the Province.

Because that happened for so many years we haven't been able to change the thinking, the negative thing that is continually talked about, and discouraging people, total discouragement. Getting people out of the schools, well educated, out of the university, out of the post-secondary, and on to some other parts of Canada. What I tell people, our young people in particular, is: It is a choice of yours, but before you make up your mind to go, take a look at what opportunities are here. The opportunities for making money, for development, for business opportunities, are here. You just have to look at it. Don't listen to the negative thoughts put forward all the time.

Invest in the economic recovery and the employment growth in a province, and in particular in rural areas. To develop and invest in rural areas you have to invest in Newfoundland and Labrador in general. Yes, there has to be investment in rural Newfoundland, but there has to be investment in urban Newfoundland as well. The spin-off, the creative jobs, the opportunities, just aren't going to come if you create something just in one section of the Province. It has to be province-wide in Newfoundland and Labrador. There are resources in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, as I have already talked about, but it needs people. You can have all of the resources that you like and all of the ideas that you like, but if you don't have people to create and people to make things happen it will never change.

Will you ever see the day when people will not leave this Province? I don't think so. I am sure as long as Newfoundland has existed, as other provinces all across Canada and other countries all across the world, people have - the only concern I have is that people have the choice. If people have the choice to move and if they want to move, fine.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: They do have a choice here in this Province. That is wrong! See, that is exactly what I am talking about. The hon. member is saying they don't have a choice. As long as you talk the doom and gloom it is never going to change. Therein lies the problem of what can happen.

When I grew up, I was told there were no opportunities in Newfoundland. Where did I go? I went off to the great City of Toronto where I thought you could shovel money up off the streets. I went up there, Mr. Speaker, for three years. What did I do? I came back to the Province of Newfoundland and I made my own job.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Not everybody can, but more people can.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Okay, let me tell you, Mr. Speaker. I created Efford's Wholesale. Twenty-two -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: Hold on now.

I had four companies and I had people working in four companies. So if everybody who gets a chance to start a business starts a business, you create more jobs for more people and those people have a right to stay in this Province. But here is what the hon. Member for Baie Verte just said, `They don't have a choice.' I don't agree with him. They do have a choice.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: What year? That's a good question, 1962 until 1965.

Mr. Speaker, I understand the reason why some of the members on the opposite side say it, but sometimes you have to get away from the politics of it and you have to look at the opportunities. The hon. Member for Baie Verte knows full well. In the sealing industry alone, that is one. Now how many years have we been hunting seals in this Province? How many jobs have we exported to other parts of the world? Finally, for the first time in the history of this Province, today we have two tanneries and the third one coming. We have three oil refining plants in seal oil and another one coming. Not only that, there is going to be full capsulization of the seal oil. We are now capsulizing the protein meat, drying it to a powder form and capsulizing it. An industry that is hundreds of years old in this Province and only now, in 1998, is it happening.

That is proving exactly what I have been saying, that what we have done with all of our resources, all over the history of the Province, we have not looked at the opportunities, maximizing the benefits and providing jobs for the people in this Province. Education will resolve that. The more we educate our young people about the opportunities here in this Province, the more opportunities there will be there.

Now I want to make my final point about education. I spoke at Memorial University - just listen to this, just quick and I will conclude. I spoke at Memorial University last fall to a third-year business class. I spoke for twenty-five minutes and I left thirty-five minutes for questions. After speaking for twenty-five minutes on the jobs and the future potential of the fishing industry, in thirty-five minutes I got two questions, one from a student and one from a professor. We are not educating the people of this Province on the opportunities in the industry of this Province. There is the problem.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Saturday.

MR. EFFORD: That is right, and the hon. member referred to it on Saturday. So talking positively, educating our people -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: One question from a student and one from a professor. What is wrong with that?

Anyway, my final point is that we have to turn around - and I will say it for the final time - and get away from that negative, `there are no opportunities.' There are opportunities here in this Province. There are real jobs, real opportunities, business opportunities and entrepreneurship. All we have to do -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: The hon. member is not only `stunned', he is blind.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I was really looking forward to getting up today to raise some points in this Budget Debate and I am glad the minister got up, but the first thing I want to do, Mr. Speaker, right from the outset, is to commend the minister and the other side of the House for giving my colleague forty-five minutes leave to speak extra on the Budget. I think he made some really good points, Mr. Speaker, today. He made the best points in this House; I do not know if I could repeat everything he said but he made the most sense I have ever heard in this House. It is probably one of the best speeches ever given in this House of Assembly, and all because the members opposite gave him leave to do so. Forty-five minutes and we really appreciate it. Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact, our caucus will discuss it tomorrow and probably send a `thank you' to the House Leader for giving the Member for Cape St. Francis so much time to speak so eloquently.

MR. TULK: Me?

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, we are going to thank you. We do not segregate, we will not break your Party; all we know is, several of the members opposite, Mr. Speaker, all agreed when the member's time was up, only after two minutes -

MR. J. BYRNE: Two minutes left.

MR. SHELLEY: Two minutes was what he had left when he stood up, Mr. Speaker, but he got forty-seven. We really appreciate it and want to make sure you thank all hon. members opposite and the Premier and especially the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture for allowing him all that time, and he sat there, Mr. Speaker, and we really appreciate it. The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture sat there for the whole forty-five minutes and listened to it all, Mr. Speaker, so we really appreciate that.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I just want to make a couple of points before I go into a list I have here today, on what the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture said and I strongly agree on one point and strongly disagree on another point I am going to raise that the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture raised.

The point on which I will agree with him, he will not get a stronger supporter in this country on the seal industry and the potential for it in this Province; and I mean that, Mr. Speaker, all-member committees, select committees across the country, go any where, do anything to improve the outlook for the seal industry in this Province, because, I am telling you right now, I just walked out of my district the day before yesterday when I was in the community where people were coming in with seals, Mr. Speaker.

They had all kinds of activity in Fleur de Lys, with 50,000 pelts taken in down there, Mr. Speaker. They are building another tannery in Baie Verte right now, they have one in the Bonavista South area. And the potential, if people would take the time... I do not know if every member in the House - I am not saying you do not - but if every member would take the time to look at the potential for the seal industry and study it, around the Province when it comes to oil; of course, the minister did a good job of promoting that, but also the pelts, Mr. Speaker, the meat, that whole industry could be a huge, huge answer for this Province. But the irony or hypocrisy whichever way you want to class it, Mr. Speaker, it is probably more like irony, that, here we are, in a Province with a catastrophe - a natural catastrophe is the best way to sum up what happened in the fishing industry, a catastrophe in this Province of the fishing industry, something that when you dip down the baskets... When they first came to this Province, Mr. Speaker, people thought that they would never, ever see the day, never, ever thought we would see the day when we would not see the fish around our shores again. That is what people said, Mr. Speaker.

I spoke to a member of my district this weekend at the wharf, when they started to tell me about a film clip they had seen some time ago which had three young gentlemen and an older gentleman sitting around a kitchen table, discussing whether they were going to vote, for Confederation or not. The next day was the vote, so, Mr. Speaker, those four gentlemen - the three younger gentlemen in their 20s sat around and discussed it with an older gentleman who was adamantly opposed to Confederation. He said: `I am voting `no' tomorrow. There is no way I am joining Confederation, I want to be a Newfoundlander.' This was 1949, the day before the election, the day before the referendum vote for Confederation, and the three gentleman in their early 20s tried to convince that man to vote for Confederation. They said: `No, we have to move on, we have to join Canada, that is the right thing to do.' But, Mr. Speaker, in that same clip, that old gentleman looked up after about twenty minutes being questioned and pressured to vote for Confederation, that same gentleman put his head up from the table and said: ` I am not voting for Confederation because I am going to tell you, if you vote for Confederation tomorrow, you will see the day when you will not be able to go out and jig a fish in this Province.' And, of course, the three gentlemen who sat around the table with him, Mr. Speaker, you know what they did? They laughed at him, and said: `That is foolishness, boy, that is scaremongering, that is scare tactics. We have to vote for Confederation.' But, Mr. Speaker, to make the point, not that anybody was against Confederation or saw the good that it brought in the years following, but, Mr. Speaker, the point is: that gentleman and a lot of the people in this Province may have had the right idea. That, some day, as our resources got managed and unfortunately for us under the Terms of Union, the management of the fishery went to Ottawa. Now, if we got any taste of what was happening in Ottawa in the last couple of weeks, we can see why that gentleman said he would not vote for Confederation. Now, I am sure he was not educated with a Master's degree or any high education, Mr. Speaker, but what kind of street sense, street smarts did he have?

When he said: If you turn over the management of our fishery, our resource, that abundance that you see in front of us today, that was only in 1949 - fifty years ago, that is all it is - when we could look around anywhere in this Province and boatload after boatload of fish came to our shores. That old gentleman had the sense to say it then, that if we turned over the management of our fisheries to the management in Ottawa - to that mentality in Ottawa - of all different governments, of all different stripes - and I have said the same to our own Minister of Fisheries here, and he knows it and admitted it, that if we turn over our resource management to that crowd in Ottawa, we are going to see a domesday in this Province, Mr. Speaker. The domesday related to the fishery crisis is what he was talking about. I wonder how much sense did that old gentleman really have? We have to question ourselves today.

Mr. Speaker, as far as the seal industry is concerned, there will not be a bigger supporter on it. I know the Member for Bonavista South and any member of our caucus, I hope, around this House of Assembly, support him whole-heartedly when he talks about the seal industry and increasing the quotas.

We have to get control of that. We just cannot say, go out and kill every seal and forget about the IFAW, I do not agree with that. I do not agree with that at all. I think we have to do it with more control and be sensible about it. We have to have the markets there so we can say next year we can increase the quota by 500,000 or a million. We have to be able to say in an astute fashion to Ottawa and the people up there who oppose IFAW and the other groups that, yes, we are increasing the quotas, yes, we have the markets to do it, yes, we are going to process it here in Newfoundland, yes, we are going to be professional about it - it is going to be a professional kill. That is what we have to do, Mr. Speaker.

It is no good to go up flailing your arms, with no control and no plan. The answer to the seal industry in this Province is to first stabilize our markets so that they are there; make sure we enforce the laws here so that you do not see the videos and what you see on television these days; make sure that the people are professionalized so that when they shoot a seal so that when it is brought in to Baie Verte or Bonavista or wherever it is, that seal is properly taken care off, the (inaudible) is done properly, the hide is taken and tanned and turned into a coat in Newfoundland, that the seal oil is purified to its finest state, and then not send to Willowdale, Ontario, Mr. Speaker, like the minister when he hauls out his seal oil capsules. For anyone in the House of Assembly who does not know, capsulizing those seal capsules is a labour intensive job. Just one machine that capsulizes those seal oil capsules, can make up to fifty or sixty jobs - just on that machine alone. So, instead of sending gallons of oil out that is purified here in this Province, capsulize it.

One of those machines costs somewhere in the area of (inaudible) - one machine, to capsulize, and with fifty to sixty people working at just capsulizing.

The minister picks up the seal oil capsules and talks about how great they are - it is true. Everything he says about them is true. In fact, they are even better than what he talks about.

Seal oil capsules in the future in the pharmaceutical industry, the bottom line is this: that there are over two billion people over in those Asian countries who are going to want to buy them. Can you imagine? Just put it into prospective, Mr. Speaker, 25,000 capsules from an average seal.

MR. SULLIVAN: Imagine if every Chinese had a couple a day or one a day for the rest of their life.

MR. SHELLEY: For anybody who knows it and studies it, people in the Asian countries enhance their food with oil, all kinds of oil. even their bars and chips - oil enhanced in their diets. That is right.

From an average size seal, 25,000 capsules per seal. Now, just take it, one bottle, 100 capsules selling now on the market for $14. If you had calculators in front of you, you could very quickly add up what the potential is, if we had a million seals killed. One million multiplied by 25,000 capsules, 100 capsules in a bottle sold at $14 each. Forget, for a second the meat, forget the hide. Can you imagine how much that is costing? Can you imagine now why the people of this Province are starting to say: The seal industry? I do not even know if we realize ourselves the magnitude of the seal industry and what it could be for this Province.

Then, if you have your oil done, Mr. Speaker, and not to be capsulized in Willowdale, Ontario or Nova Scotia or PEI, anywhere, seals shot, brought in, blubber taken off, the oil purified, and then have it go directly to a capsulizing machine - fifty to sixty jobs on every single machine. Mr. Speaker, for the first time - I do not know about the first time, but one of few times, Mr. Speaker, that we would actually take a resource from Newfoundland, in its natural state, and provide jobs in the secondary processing part of it - I mean, we have a chance here to actually do something for which we have been criticized for years by all governments. They should take a resource that is around our Province - and I have said it before, Mr. Speaker, an industry that has a potential in this Province to explode if it is done right. The catch is, Mr. Speaker, that it has to be done right. Because if we do what we did with our mining resources and our forest resources and everything else, Mr. Speaker, we are in trouble.

Now, Mr. Speaker, the minister talked about the forest resources. Yes, we are doing some things now and we are sending out secondary processing. That is true but the minister should also know - he knows a lot about the fishery but he does not know a lot about forestry. What he has to also know is that we are just starting to scratch the surface, Mr. Speaker, with the forest industry. Before I get into the forest industry and some notes I have on that, I want to finish up about the fishery.

He also said, Mr. Speaker, and I say again, the point I thoroughly agree with him on is the seal industry and the potential for it, but the point on which I totally disagree with him is the fact that these people who left had a choice. Mr. Speaker, that is just not true. It is just not the way it is. Over 9,000 people left this Province last year and I am going to tell you, if this minister or anybody else phoned them wherever they are now, in Fort McMurray, Toronto or wherever they are and said to them, `You should not have left, you had a choice,' Mr. Speaker, I think he would get an ear-ful. Now, I will agree with him to an extent. I will agree that some people may have had a choice and they sort of tetter-tottered on whether they should go or stay. I have had them in my own family who took the choice. Some stayed, not doing so well, and some left but, Mr. Speaker, they all did not have a choice.

The Member for Cape St. Francis said that while he was speaking about it. Do you think the 9,000 people who left last year had a choice? The minister said they had a choice. Yes, maybe a handful of them did, but as I just said, maybe the minister should phone some of the people who are living in Fort McMurray. My sister lives in Coquitlam, B.C. and cousins I have in Fort McMurray, ask them. Phone them and ask, `Did you have a choice? Why didn't you stay?'

Mr. Speaker, I can name my next-door neighbour, as a matter of fact. They were profiled on the CBC Here and Now. After I said good-bye to them, a couple of nights later, my next-door neighbour, right next to me in Baie Verte, were profiled on Here and Now. They were one of the families that they did the story on. They were one of the families that they did a feature story on about people leaving the Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, I know the man very well. They have one child, he and his wife. His wife was not working anymore. He got laid off, was used to working and used to giving his child what it wanted. I guess they could travel a bit and so on. Just an average family in Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker. They did not have a choice, believe me. The day that those people left they were devastated.

As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, today I use the Internet quite a bit and I use The Downhomer. They have a section on the Internet -some people use it probably - called The Kitchen. Not every night, Mr. Speaker, but whenever I get the chance I plug into The Kitchen and The Downhomer on the Internet. It is easy to get on to, Mr. Speaker, and people from all across the country and around the world put messages on it. It is called The Kitchen. You go on and put your name, where you are from, where you are originally from and where you are living now, a little message. I had messages from London, England the other day, from a cousin (inaudible) had this on the Internet. Every night, Mr. Speaker, I look at that and you see somebody who is in Fort McMurray or someone in Victoria, B.C. and they all keep saying, `I wish I could come home. I wish I had the choice to come home,' a lot of them day after day, Mr. Speaker.

So I say to the minister on his two points - and he is back in the House now - one that I strongly agree on is the sealing industry and I will support him to the hilt on that. I do not think there is a member here who would not. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, we are not aggressive enough on it.

MR. SULLIVAN: I do not know if we should kill all 6 million; then there would be no industry.

MR. SHELLEY: No, well when I talked for my colleague here I just mentioned that I think the right way to do it is to recognize that they are there, those groups. They do not just go away. They are there. The IFAW are there and they are very strong and powerful with a lot of money, because all they are there for, Mr. Speaker, is to make money. We have said that many times. What I do not agree with is that we just go out and do a slaughter or a cull. We have to do it properly. We have to do the hunt properly and make sure there are strict enforcements in place for people who do not do the hunt properly. Then we have to professionalize people to do it right so that when the seal is brought in, it is done properly and the full processing takes place in this Province. I have said that many times, Mr. Speaker.

The other thing on the fishery is that the minister talks about the young people and getting them involved. I want to tell the minister today, while he is the House, that there are some complaints within this Province by young people in the fishery that I would like for the minister to address.

I will give you just a simple example. There are young people, he is right, who want to get involved in the fishery of the future, with bigger boats and more technology and so on. I will give him a small example. I had calls from my district, Mr. Speaker, from five young men in their twenties who wanted to go after the sea urchins. They wanted to do the diving, do the training courses and so on, and go after the sea urchins, something very different. But, you know, being, I guess, adventurous and wanting to do something new and exciting, they did not want to go out in the fishing boat with the hand-lines like their fathers did before them because they know that is not going to be there for them any more, they wanted to get into the sea urchin industry, Mr. Speaker.

By the way, a lot of people do not realize that it is very lucrative and could have great potential in this Province. A lot of people do not understand about the sea urchins, the roe in the sea urchins, but the only way to harvest them is by diving for them.

Mr. Speaker, I had five young people in my district who wanted to do that course and, lo and behold, when they went to do the course and the diving, to get into this for the summer to make a few dollars for themselves and stay in the Province, to try and keep that choice, they were not funded, Mr. Speaker. They could not get funded. Here there are, people on unemployment, or young people coming out of school, training courses and so on, and they did not have the money to go and pay for a course - not fully anyway themselves - so they wanted some help. All it was, Mr. Speaker, was a little gap, a little gap for them to get from there to the next place of saying: I can do something in this industry if somebody will just give me a little break.

Well, Mr. Speaker, it fell through. The five young people could not get the money to do the course; therefore, they gave up on it. From what I understand, three of those five have left the Province now. Those were people who were trying to get into the fishing industry, I say to the minister, and they were not given that little bit of a helping hand to get to the next step, and that is a real shame, you know.

Mr. Speaker, the other one I wanted to discuss today was rural renewal but particularly transportation, our roads in the Province. Mr. Speaker, I realize that this year $16 million was allocated for provincial roads but there should have been more. By the way, that $16 million really comes down to about $12 million because $4 million of it was already spent, so this year $12 million on provincial roads.

Mr. Speaker, in my district there are many roads that are unpaved. I know there are other parts of the Province that have them. I know the Member for Twillingate & Fogo talked about his roads. There are other parts of the Province that have dirt roads. There shouldn't be any dirt roads in this Province now. That is a real shame when you see it in this day and age.

The first point I want to make on it is when you see double-lane highways in places like Grand Falls, now one being pushed through Pasadena; but the point is that those people do not want it. Again, what a hypocrisy we talk about. We have people in parts of the Province who are having pavement forced upon them, and we have people in other parts of the Province who cannot get it, still on a dirt road, since Confederation. That is a real shame, and $12 million for the Province is not enough. That is where I support the minister. He wants more money in the provincial roads, and so he should have it.

Besides the dirt roads, a lot of the paved roads now are starting to deteriorate. For example, the LaScie Highway which services some eleven communities. I say with the LaScie Highway, and what I have suggested to the minister and the Premier, that the money we got for railroads in this Province should go into roads such as the LaScie Highway, which is a main trunk road. That is where it should be serviced, and that road has to be put on a priority, but it should not be taken from the measly $12 million that went into the provincial roads.

I have been in the minister's office and I have talked to him on dozens of occasions, and the minister knows it, I have raised it in this House of Assembly over and over, about the situation of two communities, Pacquet and Woodstock, in my district, for example. I will talk about that one again today, which I have done many times in this House, and I can say it here again today. Gravel roads. The point that they have really made, one of their strongest points, and I agree with them 100 per cent, is that the situation in their communities is that they have children who are travelling over some of the longest stretches of gravel roads in this Province in order to go school, and that is a real shame.

I think that road for those two communities here together, Pacquet and Woodstock, should be a high priority with the minister and with the government. Take into consideration especially the fact that high school students go over that road day after day. What a deterrent to trying to keep our children in school when we should be encouraging them. I can't blame them. Because I tell you, I sat on that bus. As a matter of fact, Mr. Gordon Packwood was the driver that day, and he asked me to sit in the back of the bus. He said: Go in the back of the bus to really see what it's like. I sat there with those kids and went around those communities. I said to myself: If I had to go around on this every day in order to get to school, I don't know if I would have stayed in school myself.

The people in Pacquet and Woodstock have made a very good case for why they should have the road paved as soon as possible, even this year if it were possible, but the minister is looking at them as a high priority; I know he is. I know he talks to his own officials to try to give recommendations to see which one can be done. I do not expect every road in the Province to be paved in one shot, I do not expect that, but what I do expect is to take into consideration the situation in Pacquet and Woodstock where there are children who travel over - and I believe this to be a proper statistic but I will check it for the minister - that they go over the longest dirt road run in the Province in order to get to school. I do not think there are any other children who travel as far over a dirt road to do that, Mr. Speaker. So, I want to make that point for them today.

Mr. Speaker, the people in Pacquet and Woodstock have continuously brought up these issues. I have talked to them again as recently as this weekend and I would still say that these people, with the situation in which they find themselves, have a very good case to be put as a high priority.

Mr. Speaker, another point - and it is all connected, I guess - the out-migration and rural renewal are all tied together because it is what is affecting us most in this Province today.

AN HON. MEMBER: What?

MR. SHELLEY: Rural renewal and out-migration.

Mr. Speaker, 9,000 people left the Province, approximately, even a little bit more than that. As a matter of fact, I think we had a record number for the quarter, wasn't it? A record number of people -

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, 31,028 people.

MR. SHELLEY: There were 31,028 people who left in one quarter, and of that - I do not have the results, the statistics in front of me now, but I do remember - I think 70 per cent of the people who left in that lump were between the ages of fifteen and twenty-nine, and -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: That is the way it is always going to be? Mr. Speaker, I hope the Member for Humber East is wrong. He says it is the way it is always going to be. Not if we do something about it.

Mr. Speaker, I will not get into that debate across the House but I will say this, and I have said it before in the House: I do not believe it will always be like that because we have to change our attitude, which the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture kept talking about. This is where I think the key element of changing our attitude is in the Province as far as governing, whatever party is in power. We have to change the attitude about how we are treating the rural parts of the Province, and the best example of that is to go to a place like Ireland.

As long as two or maybe even three years ago in this House of Assembly, I started to read more and more about the situation that is occurring in Ireland. I am sure it is in Hansard when I talked about it. I remember talking to Jeff Gilhooly with CBC Radio about it some two years ago. I said it then, that the attitude about rural Newfoundland is very comparable to what has happened in Ireland. As a matter of fact, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology talked to me about it awhile ago.

Mr. Speaker, they are encouraging people to go back to rural parts of Ireland and do small business; not mega-projects, not something with 1,000 jobs. They are talking about anywhere from five, six, seven or eight jobs to forty, fifty or sixty jobs; to go back to the smaller parts of rural Ireland.

What the government is actually doing - and the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology reminded me of this. I was saying what they do is they even give them a building. If there is an empty building in a place, like a fish plant, they say: Listen, you go start up your business, whatever it is, with a good strong business plan, and the only criterion is that you create jobs. If you create jobs we will let you keep the building. We will give you tax incentives, we will let you keep the building.

The Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology told me that as a matter of fact they even go further than that. They said: If you can show me you have a good strong business plan and you are going to employ X number of people, five or six or twenty. She said the government of Ireland are saying: We will actually build a building for you. We will go out there and build you a building. I say to any member of the House, that is exactly what the criterion is. It is simplified, but that is the basic concept; if you go out to rural parts of Ireland and create jobs, that is the only criterion we want from you. We will give you your tax incentives, we will give you the buildings, we will do whatever we can as long as you stay in rural Ireland and create jobs.

Mr. Speaker, that is the attitude and mentality we are going to have to get in this Province before we start turning things around. Another thing we have to start doing when we talk about attitude is stop giving false hopes. I don't mind real hope. I still have hope, I still have optimism about this Province. We can play our games back and forth every now and then, but I have lots of hope for this Province. Hopefully, within the next three or four or five years, we are going to see some real turnaround.

There are people hurting right now, Mr. Speaker, there are people hurting this week. What we have to do is show some real commitment now instead of waiting for a mega-project to be announced. I'm all for Churchill Falls. The Member for Labrador West asked me about Churchill Falls. I will just make a quick statement on Churchill Falls. If it is the best deal for Newfoundland and Labrador I will support it, but I can tell the Member for Labrador West this, I will not be one of the members in this Legislature standing, with unanimous consent, to tell my twenty-year-old in ten or twenty years from now that we made another booboo. When I get the fine print, when I see things like the transmission line secured, when we read down through that, there is only bit of advice I would give to the Premier, and he can take advice from anybody: Take your time and do it right, don't rush it.

Why should we as legislators have stuck on our backs what was stuck on the backs of the legislators that voted unanimous consent for the Upper Churchill? I'm not saying it was their fault. As a matter of fact, I think they were just misinformed and there was not enough information.

I'm going to tell the member here, and I say it to even my own colleagues, that this is one member, whether I'm here for one more year or ten more years or ten more minutes, who will not have a label on the back of my shoulders going out, saying: There is the second bunch that sold us down the river. When the Lower Churchill deal comes out, Mr. Speaker, and we read the fine print and we dig into it - not from a bunch of so-called experts, Mr. Speaker, because I read a line from Mr. Smallwood's book just a little while ago and he said: Don't worry about it. We have the best experts in the world. We have the Rothchild's from England, the best investors in the world. Don't worry about it.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is Frankie Moores.

MR. SHELLEY: I can't remember the exact line. Frankie Moores or whoever it was, they were all wrong.

MR. SULLIVAN: Moores had to buy it back.

MR. SHELLEY: Moores had to buy it back.

That is what we were told: We have the best experts in the world. Don't worry about it. We have the Rothchilds from England. They can take care of it. Believe me, they are the experts. They know what they are doing.

Then, Mr. Speaker, in the Legislature upstairs here, one by one, every single member stood and said: We all support it. It sounds wonderful. Well, Mr. Speaker, there is a lot more to the Lower Churchill than a big announcement. As a matter of fact, I think the announcement was premature. I think the work should have been done. A lot more work should have been done. All it is right now is that we are going to have a deal with Lucien Bouchard and the Quebeçois, a deal on the Lower Churchill. Well, Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, I don't have a lot of faith in Lucien Bouchard or anybody else behind closed doors for ten months saying: It is a great deal, believe us, go on with it.

MR. CANNING: You are against it now, are you?

MR. SHELLEY: No, if you were listening you would have heard that I was not.

MR. CANNING: I was listening, but are you against it?

MR. SHELLEY: No. I will just repeat my first line for the Member for Labrador West, a simple line: If it is the best deal for Newfoundland and Labrador I will sign the deal.

MR. J. BYRNE: That's if.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Oh, far from it.

MR. J. BYRNE: If everything is done, then why isn't the deal signed?

MR. SHELLEY: We agree with a good deal on the Lower Churchill. It is as simple as that. Don't play with words.

MR. J. BYRNE: If everything is done, why hasn't the deal been signed?

MR. CANNING: You agree (inaudible) and that it is a good deal?

MR. SHELLEY: I agree that there is a good start to a deal. And I will go a bit further: It has great potential.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Oh, you will know. Besides that, it is so silly to be talking to the member because he does not know what it is. So why should he be agreeing on it? So what are you saying now, you have a blank cheque, you trust everybody and everything is all right? A little bit of advice for you, make sure you do it right this time.

At the end of the day, by the way, if we do agree with it, I will be the first to stand. I will be the first one to stand but I will not be - I repeat again, Mr. Speaker -

MR. TULK: Oh, watch out for the (inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: Let me say to the Government House Leader, with all due respect, I am in no rush like the Premier is. If the Premier is in a hurry to go, he can go right ahead but the deal is going to be done right here.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SHELLEY: He is gone as far as I am concerned. He is gone, Mr. Speaker. The Premier is gone. Where is he?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. SHELLEY: By leave, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. SPEAKER: No leave.

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. SULLIVAN: Why, do you want to adjourn?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, come on.

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, I am having so much fun that I am not sure -

AN HON. MEMBER: Thank them for giving the Member for Cape St. Francis `by leave'.

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, I will.

It is really difficult, Mr. Speaker, for anybody to stand and not support such an amendment that condemns the government's failure to manage competently the finances of the Province, its failure to live up to its duty: its duty to provide adequate direction of funding for social programs, like Health and Social Services, its failure to secure the future of our Province by investing appropriately in education and students - I mean, we have decimated students here in the Province - and, its failure to discharge effectively its responsibility to plan for and invest in economic recovery and employment in the Province, particularly in rural areas so desperately in need of development and jobs.

The Member for Twillingate & Fogo asks: What is it? That is the tremendous amendment that was moved by my colleague here, on the Budget, the main motion, one on which I am sure the member will stand and agree that rural Newfoundland is being decimated and we are calling upon the government, we are calling upon a vote to support this to show that the government has failed miserably in accomplishing objectives of revitalizing Rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

We have the largest out-migration in the history of our Province. 3,128 people, went out in one quarter, where 10,000 people left -estimated 40,000 over the next while. And here is the Member for Twillingate & Fogo wondering what we are talking about for the last two weeks.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where is Brian Tobin?

MR. SULLIVAN: Before I adjourn debate, I really would like to thank the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture for giving my colleague, the Member for Cape St. Francis, forty-five extra minutes of leave -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, here!

MR. SULLIVAN: - forty-five extra minutes of leave to speak on this very important amendment, here, I might add. We want to thank him again, and I hope he will afford me the same courtesy, I say to the minister, and allow me to do the same. With that, I adjourn the debate on this amendment.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I move that the House adjourn until tomorrow at 2:00 p.m. At that time, I say to the Opposition Leader, we will be tabling a resolution for Private Member's Day and I do not think he has any problem with that.

Mr. Speaker, I move that the House adjourn until tomorrow at 2:00 p.m.

On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, Tuesday, at 2:00 p.m.