The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before we begin our routine proceedings, the Chair would like to welcome to the Speaker's gallery today, and to the House of Assembly, Gian Lorenzo Cornado, Consul General of Italy, Guido Del Rizzo, Honourary Consul of Italy for Newfoundland and Labrador, and Sir Andrew Burns, High Commissioner of Britain.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to bring members' attention to an innovative program of the Humber Literacy Council that helps to promote reading in young children.

The program, known as Books for Babies, was started in Corner Brook in January, 1994, and has grown to include newborn to age four children in forty communities around the Province.

The program involves volunteers visiting new mothers and their babies in hospital and offering them a reading package; a package that includes a children's book, brochures on reading, literacy related materials, information about the Books for Babies Program and resource information for new parents. The program also offers a four-year, follow-up program in which children receive a free book each year until they begin school.

The program's purpose is to help children and their families develop a love of language, literature and learning. The program recognizes the role of parents as the primary educators of their children, and that attitudes toward reading and writing are formed at home during the preschool years.

Mr. Speaker, I ask all members of this House to join with me in recognizing the important work being done by the Humber Literacy Council through the Books for Babies program.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to extend birthday greetings to a very special lady. Aunt Philomena O'Brien of L'Anse-au-Loup, Labrador, celebrates her 91^st birthday today. Now, Mr. Speaker, while I have called her Aunt Philomena all my life, she is of no relation to me but she is a very close family friend. When we lived in L'Anse-au-Loup in the late 1960s and early 1970s, she was one of my babysitters; and a fine job she did.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: I guess I asked for that one.

Mr. Speaker, I have very fond memories of Aunt Philomena and on many occasions while walking home from school, particularly on cold winter days, Aunt Philomena would take me inside her house for bakeapple pie and a glass of something that we do not see much of now: powdered milk.

Aunt Philomena was the mother of eleven children, nine of whom are surviving. She has fifty grandchildren, sixty-three great-grandchildren and two great-great grandchildren. With a family of that size, it is easy to see how her son, MP Lawrence O'Brien, gets elected.

Mr. Speaker, I ask all members of this House to join with me in extending birthday wishes to this special lady, and I wish Aunt Philomena O'Brien many happy returns of the day, continued happiness and health.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell Island.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WALSH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise to congratulate the East Coast Trails Association on the official opening earlier this year of the East Coast Trail, a world-class hiking trail.

The official opening of the trail was marked by a large event attended by approximately 3,500 people who were entertained by local musicians and welcomed two groups of hikers who had set out from the north and the south ends of the trail to Bay Bulls, at the conclusion of what they called their "Wonderful Grand Hike."

The East Coast Trail, which runs from Fort Amherst on the south side of St. John's to the Town of Cappahayden on the southern shore, was the brain child of Peter Gard of Petty Harbour, who was the association's first president, along with a group of committed volunteers who banded together to form the East Coast Trails Association in 1994.

When it is completed, the East Coast Trail will stretch for 520 kilometers and will be a great attraction to tourists who wish to experience the natural beauty of our Province's east coast and thus benefit the economy of that region.

Mr. Speaker, the effort put forth by the East Coast Trails Association in this endeavor has been tremendous and I urge all Members of the House of Assembly to join with me in congratulating them on the opening of the East Coast Trail, and wish them every success for their future endeavors.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As most members of the House are aware, this is the International Year of the Volunteer. It is an important time for us to say thank you to the many volunteers throughout our Province who give so freely of their time and commitment to make their communities and their areas a better place to live.

I would like to take the opportunity to thank the many volunteers in the District of Placentia & St. Mary's, Mr. Speaker. They make up organizations such as town councils, local service district associations, fire departments, recreational, fisheries, and parish communities, and spend endless hours giving to their community and giving to their fellow people in their community.

Last Friday night I had the opportunity to attend the Volunteer Night at Freshwater Community Centre, where the Freshwater Community Centre took all of the volunteers in the area and gave them an opportunity to celebrate another year of giving to their community and their commitment that they so freely give of their time. That night they awarded, Mr. Dan Culleton with the Volunteer of the Year Award for his many hours of service to his community and to his fellow man.

I would just like to take the opportunity today, Mr. Speaker, to say thank you to all the volunteers in Placentia & St. Mary's District but indeed in Newfoundland and Labrador because in these tough economic times that we have we still look back to our volunteers to ensure that our communities are kept alive and the many hours that are given so that we have a better place to live.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin-Placentia West.

MS M. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I rise in this House today to pay tribute to Mr. George Marcello of Toronto, Ontario, for his Canada 769 Day Walk to raise money and awareness about the importance of organ and tissue donations. Mr. Marcello began his walk in Toronto on July 20, 2000, and plans to complete it on July 27, 2002. Earlier this year, he visited this Province including the Burin Peninsula.

In his travels, Mr. Marcello has visited more than 250 communities, held an equal number of press conferences and has received media attention across Canada. He has provided education and awareness to schools, churches and various other service and community groups.

His efforts have raised the awareness of many in the area of organ and tissue donations and have motivated many more to become involved through volunteering, contributing and by signing organ donor cards.

Mr. Speaker, I ask all Members of the House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador to join me in congratulating Mr. Martello on his efforts to date and to wish him success with this very important cause.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, sixty-six years ago today the sun was shining in Musgrave Harbour. It was a lovely day with just a little bit of snow on the ground. The air was still and clear. Then the silence that day was broken with the ringing of bells and the firing of guns. The cause of this noise was a wedding. The wedding of Roland and Ina Abbott.

Also, I would like to bring to the attention of the House the 60^th Wedding Anniversary of Claude and Susanne Dunne from the Minister of Education's district. They have seven children, sixteen grandchildren and ten great-grandchildren. Someone who spoke to them recently said they remember the day they were married as if it were yesterday.

Marriage and family are said to be the bedrock on which our society sits. When two people come together and stay together, contributing to the community the way these people have, they deserve to be recognized by the members of this House of Assembly.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labrador & Aboriginal Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. McLEAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to inform the House and the people of the Province about the meeting of Federal/Provincial/Territorial Ministers responsible for Aboriginal Affairs and also the leaders of the five national Aboriginal organizations held in Ottawa on December 6 and 7.

At the conclusion of this conference, ministers and leaders directed officials to: establish a Working Group on the National Aboriginal Youth Strategy; to explore measures to increase the participation of Aboriginal women in the economy; and implement the recommendations of Strengthening Aboriginal Participation in the Economy Report; and also to plan for a national business summit for government, Aboriginal and private sector representatives aimed at strengthening Aboriginal participation in the economy.

Mr. Speaker, leaders and ministers reaffirmed the importance of continued dialogue between Aboriginal organizations and government to further improve the quality of life of Aboriginal peoples. We agreed to reconvene in May or June, 2002, to pursue our common objectives.

This meeting will take place in Iqaluit in the new territory of Nunavut.

The issues discussed at this conference mainly related to community building, which was also the underlining theme of the Northern Ministers Development Conference that I attended in La Ronge, Saskatchewan in late September. Clearly, educated, healthy, productive communities are better able to achieve their economic development goals.

Aboriginal participation in the economy, Mr. Speaker, is in the national interest. It makes good financial sense and provides long-term value to the Canadian economy. Governments, Aboriginal people and the private sector must all work together to achieve these goals.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the hon minister that these are, indeed, vitally important meetings. It is always essential that we, in this Province, be at the Table to represent the interests of our Aboriginal communities, and our rich Aboriginal cultures in both Newfoundland and, of course, in Labrador.

I would like to make a specific reference to the point that was made by the hon. minister with respect to participation, and how it is best done for the Canadian economy. I say, as well, Mr. Speaker, that when government joins with both the private sector and the Aboriginal communities themselves, in investing in Aboriginal communities, that is when we see what is best for our Aboriginal peoples and the communities themselves.

Mr. Speaker, in closing, we look forward to the reconvening of this meeting in the New Year, in Iqaluit, and we look forward to hearing from those present as to how these particular objectives have been met.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The issues raised at these meetings are quite important in allowing Aboriginal people to fully participate in the economy. We have seen good examples in this Province, both in Labrador and in Conne River of business ventures carried out, planned by and owned by Aboriginal people, and we will see more of that as Voisey's Bay develops.

As far as Youth Strategy goes, Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to report, in case anyone missed it, that there was actually money in the federal budget for an Aboriginal Youth Strategy, and, hopefully, Aboriginal young people in this Province will be able to benefit from that as well.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions are for the Premier. Premier, yesterday you told the people of this Province that we are not expecting any reductions or cuts in health care, and that there is no money being wasted in the health care system. In light of your comments, how do you explain that your government is spending $500,000 on a consulting group to find areas where health services can be either cut or eliminated to the tune of $6.6 million?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Unfortunately, the Leader of the Opposition seems to have misunderstood what is occurring. In fact, Mr. Speaker, what we have done in Newfoundland and Labrador this year is add $50 million to the operating budgets of the health care institutional boards, one of which, and the biggest of which, is here in St. John's, the Health Care Corporation of St. John's.

What we are doing, with their consent and concurrence because they want to find out as well whether or not there are any ways they can spend the additional money that we have given them better, because they are indicating again that there are some unmet needs, that they are short a little bit of money, even though we increased their particular budget by several millions of dollars - no decreases in funding - we are trying to manage the size of the increase and the growth, Mr. Speaker. That is what this government is about, with the cooperation and consent of the Board of Directors of the Health Care Corporation of St. John's. The other boards are largely in balance at this point in time or very close to it, and can see their way to do it either this year or next year.

Now, that particular group is interested to see how they might be able to better spend the extra money that they have been given this year, so we can ascertain how much extra we might have to give them next year, Mr. Speaker, because we have been increasing the funding, not decreasing or cutting health care funding.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, supplementary.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Premier, your exact words yesterday were: We are not expecting any cutbacks at all.

Can you explain how the layoff of forty-five people in the health care system does not constitute a cutback, because I can't understand that?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

From time to time, Mr. Speaker, there are rearrangements and reordering of services in health care, just like there are in any other areas. To their credit, Mr. Speaker, what the board and the senior management at the Health Care Corporation of St. John's are trying to find a way to do, is to try to find the most efficient and effective way to spend the increased funding that they have been given again this year, just like last year and the year before.

Mr. Speaker, I have also made some other statements that maybe the Leader of the Opposition would like to quote. Maybe he does not agree with them, but they are factual. I have said on many occasions, Mr. Speaker, unlike the position of the Opposition, because in their Blue Book of a couple of years ago they said they would abolish these boards, they would wipe them off the map and they would do it all themselves.

I have always said this: We do not pretend to run the health care system as politicians and as ministers. We fund it to the greatest level we possibly can. We trust and have confidence in the boards and the senior management to run it the very best way they can and that is what they are trying to do.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Premier, in your own words, now they are not cutbacks they are rearrangements. Is the fact that next year you are going to cut out and close one of the operating rooms at the Janeway during the summer months, the most dangerous period of the year, is that a rearrangement or is that, in fact, a cutback?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition might know, and then again maybe he does not know, I know he is still trying to learn his job.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is this -

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible) Christmas, you are not going to get in your stocking.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I have indicated, the Leader of the Opposition is trying his best to learn his new role as best he can at this point in time. If he checked with one of his two or three current health critics, or his former, former health critic, now the critic for finance - who was a very good health critic by the way, one of the best the Province has ever seen, in my opinion -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: - he would know, if he bothered to check with anybody in his caucus, because I hear he does not check with anybody in his caucus, then he would find out this: That there are normal closures of certain wards and wings in hospitals all over Newfoundland and Labrador every year during the summer to provide for vacation, during the Christmas period, which is coming up soon, to provide for vacation and so on. It is a normal administrative practice. If he wants to try to suggest something, as he seems to be doing today -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.

PREMIER GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

If he wants to suggest, as he is trying to do today, that a normal administrative arrangement to close out some part of an operation for a period of time to allow the nurses, the technicians and others to have their vacation is a problem, then maybe he should try to run the system by himself instead of trusting to the officials and administrators to do it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would suggest to the Premier that it is not a normal closure to close a child's operating room in the summertime when they are on vacation and they are most prone to injury. That is not a normal closure, Premier. The other point I would like to make, Premier, is that all hon. members here are concerned about health care. We are all critics in some form or another, so we make no apologizes for that.

In line with your normal closures, can you tell me if it is a normal closure that you are going -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I just want to remind hon. members, again, about addressing the Chair when putting questions or in any debate in the House, questions ought to be directed to the Chair in the third person.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, in line with normal closures, would the Premier tell me if there are going to be no further cutbacks or reductions in services why it is proposed that the new Roddickton hospital will close from midnight until 8 o'clock the following morning? Is that a normal cutback?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I expect after the answer that I will give that the Leader of the Opposition might jump up and say now he is blaming it on the administrators out in the system. Let me tell you and the members of the House, Mr. Speaker, and everybody in Newfoundland and Labrador, we do not run the day-to-day operations of the health care system.

We fund, Mr. Speaker, the operations to the greatest extent that we possibly can at the requests of the health care boards and the requests that we get every year. We do recognize that we leave some unmet needs, we have said that everyday and I understood the Opposition was going to help us try to get some more money from the Government of Canada for that but maybe now they are changing their minds on that as well. In fact, we do not direct or order what the operations are in any facility whether it be in Roddickton, whether it be the Janeway. Those decisions are made by health care professionals living within their means to the best they can and always, Mr. Speaker, to their credit, always to their credit in my knowledge and my experience -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, having been a Health Minister previously, always, in my experience, they try to make the decisions that will have the least possible adverse impact on any of the people they are trying to serve.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Where does the buck stop, Premier? You are not responsible, the Minister of Health is not responsible. The school boards are the ones that are responsible, the federal government is responsible. The Minister of Justice suggested that the CEO of the Western Health Corporation was irresponsible. Where does the buck stop? How does the public find out who is answering the questions here?

Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier: Yesterday he indicated to this House that there was a dialysis machine in operation in St. Anthony. That was a dialysis machine that, I understand, was promised while he was Minister of Health. If there are no cutbacks, why has that dialysis machine in St. Anthony been deferred indefinitely?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, as predicted, and the Leader of the Opposition is becoming somewhat predictable, I did indicate that because I told the truth about who is actually responsible and who we trust to make these decisions, that he would now say, well, you do not take responsibility for anything.

We take responsibility for everything, Mr. Speaker, which is why we are answering the questions, gladly answering the questions, here in the Legislature. We use the opportunity as well to make sure the people understand how the system really works.

We do know that it was part of the election in 1999 where the Opposition Conservatives did say: If you elect us, we will abolish all of the health care boards and make all of the decisions right here in St. John's by ourselves.

Mr. Speaker, the people did not vote for that. We believe in and trust and we value the boards and the administrative professionals that are there.

Mr. Speaker, I can tell you with respect to the dialysis: the board itself - the information I have - in Grenfell has indicated that the funding is still available. They know that it is. We granted the funding. We do not run the system. Let me say it again, Mr. Speaker, we fund the system.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

They have determined in their own research that there aren't enough patients in the area needing access to this service today to warrant instituting it right away, but they have the money and they will institute it when they are ready.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier a very direct question: Can the people of this Province expect further cutbacks in health care services in the future?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Now I might get to explaining exactly what I did say to the media yesterday. They used the language of cutbacks and so on, as the Leader of the Opposition does. I indicated quite clearly that what this government is doing, we are not in the business of cutbacks. We are in the business of managing growth, managing expansion, trying to meet the increased needs and demands of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, and unfortunately, new year most likely, just like this year, we probably will not be able to meet 100 per cent of the needs and 100 per cent of the demands. I guarantee you, nine chances out of ten, and we will find it all out in the budget which we will debate here in March, it is almost impossible to run a health care system in Newfoundland and Labrador without spending more money again next year than we have this year.

You can probably expect, I do not know what the numbers will be, but we will be dedicating more of the resources of Newfoundland and Labrador to health care services. There will still be some unmet needs, and the Leader of the Opposition will jump up at the time, even though we will put more resources in, and say that we have cut back the health care system. We will provide more funding and the professionals in heath care will try to maximize -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: - the service delivery with that extra money, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My questions today are for the Minister of Finance.

Government is in the process of changing the Public Service Pension Plan from a government controlled plan to a giant trusteeship. There are currently over 10,000 pensioners now receiving a pension under this plan. I want to ask the minister, Mr. Speaker, will those retired pensioners have a say in the planning of the trusteeship and have representation on the board of trustees when it is up and running in just over a year's time?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think I answered that question yesterday when we were actually debating changes to our Public Service Pensions Plan and our Uniformed Services Pension Plan. I understand there are representatives in the gallery today. I, as well as the Premier, have had meetings with the representatives of the Pensioners' Association, and very good discussions, as far as I am concerned, about the status of where we are right now.

You know, Mr. Speaker, that this Province recently, through collective bargaining, moved towards a new direction of joint management of our Public Service Pensions Plan, and, as members and people listening know, it was something that was negotiated as part of a collective agreement.

Now, during those negotiations, the views and representations of the public service pensioners, who we saw many days out in the gallery demonstrating, were brought forward to the table by members of NAPE particularly, and CUPE as well but particularly NAPE - many of them are NAPE members - and their views were to move in this direction and to make their representations particularly around an increase in pay. What we have said to them clearly, face to face, and they can see me today as I am saying this, it has not changed.

Our view is, right now it has been made very clear to us that the unions currently are not supporting them having a position at the table. What we have done is that, in an effort to make sure, because this was bargained in collective bargaining, that we will go - and we have gone, and I have mentioned to members who represent -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister to now conclude her answer.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I think it is important to just finish this, if I may.

- that we have gone, as I have mentioned to the Pensioners' Association, to Justice to make sure that when we put this committee in place, that because we have done this through collective bargaining, that we are able to look at broadening the membership; because the unions have made it quite clear they are not supportive of having the Pensioners' Association sit at that table.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to take her seat.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, the Public Service Pensions Plan has assets of about $1.5 billion, of which a significant portion of that was paid by retired pensioners; and, of course, some current people are contributing now.

In the vicinity - the minister should have the exact figure - but in the vicinity of 25 per cent of those people who are pensioners today were never represented, or not represented by any union and there is a similar number of people in the public service today contributing who are not represented by any union.

I want to ask the minister: Should they have a direct input, a direct voice, in how their future income is managed, and who will speak for these people?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I said, the Pensioners' Association's views and wishes were brought to the collective bargaining table by, particularly, NAPE. They brought forward their views and representations. We have met with them, and one of the things we have suggested to them is that they go back to the union that brought their issues to the table on their behalf and seek concurrence or the view that they would support having a representation from their group at the table. We have not said we would not do that, Mr. Speaker. What we have said is that we are going through the proper procedures. We are going to make sure that we are not violating any of the components of the collective agreement. Frankly, we have not, in any way, indicated that we are not supportive of having a voice. If the people of the Province are familiar with it, they have always had representation in our Public Service Investment Committee, which currently sits today, and in fact, had a meeting this morning. They are representative.

What we are saying is that the unions are not supportive of them sitting at the table. These new changes, for the first time ever, were bargained through collective bargaining, and we want to make sure if we do that, we are doing it within the auspices of what is legal and right and just as we begin a new committee.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister has indicated that she has spoken to Justice Department officials. I want to ask the minister: If she didn't -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: It has been discussed in the Justice Department. Well, if she didn't say it, I will ask her a question now. Has the minister sought a legal opinion on whether it is legal to exclude retired pensioners from having a direct voice in their own investments to which they have contributed?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I think it is very important and make it clear that this government is not trying to do anything to exclude anyone. What we are doing - and I did not say I spoke with Justice officials. I said we have asked Justice for an opinion, because for the first time ever, we have negotiated something in the realm of collective bargaining. We have asked for a position on this. We have made it quite clear to the pensioners, but I want to make it quite clear, Mr. Speaker, to the people of the Province, there is no intent, on our behalf as a government, to exclude anyone from this process. These other pensioners outside of the collective bargaining agents have made significant contributions; and there are managers. There are many groups that have vested interests.

Our view is that - and we take pride in the fact that we going to do what is right as we start a brand new approach to collectively joint managing our public service pension. Mr. Speaker, we will do what is right, but we are following the process. I make no apologies to that, and I have been very open and honest with the pensioners in the gallery.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the minister now to conclude her answer.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I have met with them as recently as a couple of weeks ago, and we will keep them fully informed. In fact, I have met with one of my own officials - I will admit to that - not long ago, earlier this week, and asked what the status of that opinion was and if we could expect it soon so that we could get this process moving.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the Report of The Special Panel on Corporate Concentration in Newfoundland and Labrador Fishing Industry looked at the proposed acquisition of Clearwater Fine Foods by Fishery Products International. In so doing, pointed out that once the deal is final, Mr. Risley will hold 14 per cent of the voting shares, 100 per cent of FPIs nonvoting preferred shares and 100 per cent of its nonvoting common shares.

Mr. Speaker, is the minister concerned that under this acquisition one person will have circumvented the 15 per cent restriction on ownership in the FPI legislation, will own 60 per cent of the company and will become its new CEO?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As the hon. member opposite knows, that deal has not been completed yet, and before it is completed it has to go through the Toronto Stock Exchange, it is has to go through the Ontario Securities Commission, and it also has to go through the Competition Bureau of Canada, and it has to have an independent evaluation. We have been following that very carefully. With regard to the actual shares, even if Mr. Risley owns 50 per cent, or 51 per cent of the actual shares in the company he still only controls 14 per cent or 15 per cent of the voting shares, and those are the shares that count when you operate a company.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, it is clear that this deal, if it goes through, will contravene provincial legislation. The question to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture is: Is he planning to turn a blind eye to that legislation, or is he planning to change the legislation as it relates to the 15 per cent ownership restriction on FPI?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Contrary to what the member opposite said, we are not turning a blind eye to the process. We are following it very carefully.

With regard to the legislation, the legal advice from our own Department of Justice, along with an independent advice from a law firm in Ontario, I think the name is Stikeman Elliott, both have given us the opinion that it is not in contravention to the legislation currently on the books.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In previous years the management of FPI have, by this time of the year, informed the workers, the union and the communities that they operate in of their plans for the coming year. To my knowledge, this has not happened thus far this year. Does the minister have any information on FPI's plans for the 2002 season, especially as it relates to expected employment levels in their plants?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, when the new board of FPI was elected back last spring we were given the commitment by that board - nine members of which are very prominent Newfoundlanders and Labradorians - that there would be no plant closures of the plants that FPI currently hold. I understand, in having a discussion with some of the board members last week, that the company intends to spend many millions of dollars on the existing plants on the Burin Peninsula in the next year or two.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Health and Community Services.

Last fall I asked the Minister of Health, who is now Premier, about the lack of assistance for high cost drugs like Betaseron for people with Multiple Sclerosis, for people who do not qualify under the low income programs of Newfoundland and Labrador Prescription Drug Program. He said at that time that the department was reviewing policies in other jurisdictions to see if this Province could implement a cost-sharing program here.

I ask the minister what the results of that review were and when can the hard-working people of this Province expect not to have to reduce themselves and their families to poverty, not to spend all of the money that they have saved for retirement, not to spend their children's education fund? When can they expect some help from this government with their diseases and their treatments?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, at the present time the coverage that we provide under the Newfoundland and Labrador Drug Prescription Program for MS is the same as it is for any other drug, as the member understands. Of course, the issue here is whether we are in a position to be able to provide universal drug coverage to the people of this Province regardless of whether they are able to pay themselves or not. At the present time we spend $78 million - I believe is the sum - on the prescription drug program in this Province. It is a huge cost factor in our system. At the present time, unfortunately, we are unable to expand our current drug program to apply to anyone regardless of needs. We are trying to be fair. We are trying to be equitable in providing access to prescription drug coverage to citizens who do not have the means to be able to provide it and that is determined through our Department of Human Resources and Employment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister it is not a matter if the Province will pay because the Province will, it is a matter of what individual families have to do to themselves before the Province will. I ask the minister, again, we talk about the economic growth that is taking place in this Province, other provinces are providing on a sliding scale basis assistance to their citizens -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary, I ask him to get to his question.

MR. COLLINS: - when can the people of this Province expect the same treatment?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Our mandate, which we are trying to meet as best we can within our fiscal framework and within our ability to pay, is to provide pharmaceutical therapies for low income people in this Province. That is determined based on a financial assessment that is done by the Department of Human Resources and Employment, if people's financial resources exceed that threshold then they are required to provide for their own prescription drug costs. If they have other coverage through private insurance they are required to utilize that.

As I say, Mr. Speaker, it would be very nice if we could have universal drug coverage so that everyone in this Province could access prescription drugs at no cost but we are not there.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. minister now to conclude her answer quickly.

MS BETTNEY: We have a very, very significant cost constraint. This is a huge cost driver in our system at $78 million, and increasing.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. T. OSBORNE: Mr. Speaker, during the public consultation process on the new environment acts presently before the House, there were some thirty submissions made. Last week I contacted the Department of Environment, requested a copy of those submissions, was told that I could have them, asked how I wanted them delivered, and later that day I got a call saying that the request was turned down.

Mr. Speaker, since these documents were presented as part of a public forum, I ask the Minister of Environment if he will today release the gag order on these documents and provide them so that they can take part of the legislative process in this House of Assembly?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I understand the frenzy that the Member for St. John's South is in. This legislation and the consultation that he has been talking about happened some three months ago. I have sitting here since November 20 waiting for the hon. member to begin the legislation. In courtesy, Mr. Speaker, we have been waiting for them. Three months, and today he rises in the House and wants to know what the general public had said. I want to say, Mr. Speaker, not one call, not one letter from the members opposite concerning the two pieces of legislation that is in this House.

Getting to your question, I will undertake to take a look at what the problem is, if there is one.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Question Period has ended.

MR. E. BYRNE: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Opposition House Leader, on a point of order.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you.

The Minister of Environment has suggested that we have not even begun debate hardly on the bill that protects environment. I would like to inform him, that if he wants the bill called talk to the Government House Leader because it is your responsibility to call legislation, not ours.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to table the Annual Report of the Public Service Commission for the fiscal year 2000-2001. Copies are already provided to the Speaker.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education.

MS KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I hereby table the Annual Report for the Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women, Newfoundland and Labrador, for the fiscal year 2000-2001.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I give notice, under Standing Order 11, that on tomorrow, Thursday, I will move that the House not adjourn at 5:30 in the afternoon or at 10:00 in the evening.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, in order to keep my hon. friend opposite informed, I have another little tidbit for him today.

He asked for a detailed breakdown of the cost to the Province of the most recent Atlanta Trade Mission, including information on accommodation expenses, entertainment expenses, advertising expenses, communications expenses, travel expenses and other budgetary line items.

Mr. Speaker, I don't know why he doesn't keep those questions short and ask for every detailed expense. It would make it a lot easier on us.

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to table it, and give him the information, and tell him that I was represented at that -

MR. E. BYRNE: I am so concerned that you are concerned about my welfare.

MR. TULK: I know.

AN HON. MEMBER: Give him a cigar, Beaton.

MR. TULK: Oh, no. I don't buy cigars. That belongs to you know who.

I am so glad to tell him that I was represented at that trade mission by my good friend from St. John's West, the Minister of Mines and Energy.

AN HON. MEMBER: St. John's North.

MR. TULK: St. John's North. I am sorry. He could probably win any seat up in that area anyway.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, he went to Atlanta and did an excellent job for me.

Mr. Speaker, I have to tell you that the cost to the Province, whatever it was - let me see here now. The cost was $36,000 for everybody including several companies that went there: Bio-Industries; TNB Laboratories; Atlantic Communications Enterprises Limited; Excite Corporation; IDON East; Infotech Canada; Telelink, The Call Centre; Value-Added Food; Flynn's Winery and Distillery; and New Found Foods Inc. Mr. Speaker, the nine companies that participated in this Trade Mission to Atlanta project - this can't be true - expect that there will be direct revenues of $4.7 million Canadian over the next two years from the effort.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I know the gentleman will read this tonight and say how positive, how wonderful, what a great investment this was. I am pleased to give it to him.

MR. E. BYRNE: Now, where is my (inaudible)?

MR. TULK: What is that?

The staff over there, Mr. Speaker, is working night and day -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to bring a petition to the House of Assembly.

The petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland and Labrador.

WHEREAS the public library located in Brigus, Conception Bay, allows only limited access to patrons due to the allocation of only ten (10) hours of operation per week; and

WHEREAS the library is a valuable resource for all age groups from pre-school to seniors; and

WHEREAS the Brigus Library supplies and covers a vast geographical area which includes the eight communities of Brigus, Cupids, Georgetown, Marysvale, Makinsons, Cupids Crossing, Roache's Line and South River;

WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to allocate additional hours for the operation of the Brigus Library to address the literacy needs of the general public.

And as is duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, I bring this petition to the House of Assembly on behalf of a young student from Ascension Collegiate in Bay Roberts, Miss Raelene White, who is a Level II student. It was on her initiative, Mr. Speaker, that this petition was circulated. It was placed in the public library. It was brought around to convenience stores, gas stops, just about every community in the surrounding area, to give at least 500 people the opportunity to put their name to the petition, to bring it to this House and to the attention of certainly the government.

The young lady, Raelene, wrote the Premier, the Minister of Education, and the director of the library boards in Newfoundland and Labrador. Her request was for them to look at it and to hopefully -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, she did. I would say to the Minister of Education, you are jumping ahead of me. They did receive answers from the Premier, from the minister, that it would be reviewed. Again, she requested that I bring this in because the names on the petitions, the movers, certainly needed to have some public demonstration of their request. The request is not an unreasonable one, Mr. Speaker.

The Brigus Library serves a region that caters to a lot of library patrons. There are, for example, Mr. Speaker, something close to fifty preschool children who, every Wednesday morning, attend a reading circle down at the library. The librarian, Ms Elsie Percey, certainly goes out of her way to make sure that every request that comes her way is fulfilled. With ten hours a week, it is virtually impossible, Mr. Speaker, to take care of the needs of this particular library. When you are looking at, in a month, a circulation of something like a couple of thousand books, videos, different vertical files, it is very difficult for the patrons to use the library effectively. It is not a question, as I say to the Minister of Education, of resources. The librarian looks at the resources as adequate. As a matter of fact -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: We would hope.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but I still have to present the petition, right?

Again, the question is -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HEDDERSON: By leave?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. HEDDERSON: Just in cluing up I would say, Mr. Speaker - it is time to clue up, I say to the Government House Leader - I want to make sure that the petition is presented, that the minister and the Premier realize that they are most appreciative of complying with the request, but once to make sure not only this library but certainly all libraries through this Province are getting enough time in order to bring forth the action that is required to take care of the needs of that particular area.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I stand today to present a petition. The petition reads:

To the House of Assembly of Newfoundland, in legislative session convened:

The petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland.

WHEREAS the road on the Bonavista Peninsula from Route 235 through the communities of Open Hall, Red Cliffe, and Tickle Cove, is in such a deplorable condition that it damages vehicles and creates great discomfort and safety concerns for children on school buses and;

WHEREAS this road has not been upgraded since it was first paved more than twenty-five years ago, despite serious deterioration;

WHEREFORE you petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to upgrade where necessary and re-pave the seven kilometers of road leading from Route 235 through Open Hall, Red Cliffe, and Tickle Cove;

And as in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, this is a section of road that the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation is certainly aware of. He went down there with me last year and met with a delegation of people there and clearly saw the condition of this particular roadway. At that time they had expected from meeting with the minister that we would probably see a start made on this section of road, and they fully expected to receive approximately two kilometers of upgrading and paving. They were happy with that. They were satisfied because they were going to see a beginning made to upgrade and pave the roads. When the tenders finally came out, and the cutbacks finally happened, they ended up, I say to you, Mr. Speaker, with 400 meters of this seven kilometers of road upgraded and paved.

The road is certainly in a serious state of disrepair. In fact, one of the store owners out there have been threatened by delivery trucks to have to come in to the crossroads on Route 235, where this intersection meets Route 235, to pick up his supplies for his grocery store. There are buses travelling back and forth there to pick up school children. There is one contractor there, one fisheries trucking company that probably have sixteen or twenty trucks that use that road on a regular basis, and those are not dying communities. Those are communities where you see new activity, new houses going up, new construction. All they are asking for is their road to be maintained. While driving out the seven kilometers of roads, you do not know if you are on the paved section of road or out on the shoulder of the road, because it has deteriorated so bad. All they are asking for is a beginning to be made in upgrading and paving their roads to bring it up to standard this year.

I certainly support them in their efforts to get this work done, and I ask the minister if he would consider this request and consider the petition that I continue to stand here in this House to present, to bring to his attention, when he brings forward his road construction budget for this coming fiscal year.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: It being Wednesday, it is Private Members' Day. Today the private member's motion is by the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As you said, I presented a private member's resolution. I will read it now for the record:

WHEREAS the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has done nothing in twelve years to halt or slow down the rapid social and economic decline in rural communities; and

WHEREAS the Government's Renewal Strategy for Jobs and Growth is all process and no action;

BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that this House condemn the government for its failure to develop a realistic plan to maintain economically and socially viable communities in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, as we get into this - I have a few brief comments in opening debate on this. Of course over the last couple of weeks the government has, from time to time, pointed out how some parts of the Province are prospering, and government is right in saying that. I have to say that in starting out.

As the Member for Kilbride has said over the last couple of weeks, the tale of Newfoundland and Labrador is like the Tale of Two Cities. In some parts of the Province, particularly the Northeast Avalon and some other places throughout the Province, it is the best of times, but for many other places throughout the Province -the vast majority of the Province and for the vast majority of the people - it is actually amongst the worst of times.

As I have said, there are positive areas, the Northeast Avalon. The Northeast Avalon has been driven, in large part, by the oil and gas developments on the Grand Banks; by the service industry around that; by major infrastructure development here, as was reference yesterday, Stavanger Drive, Mile One, the building of The Rooms, the Outer Ring Road. You can go on, but that is to name a few. That is good and great that the Northeast Avalon is doing so well.

When government talks about how there are more people working in Newfoundland and Labrador today than there ever were - they speak about how out-migration is slowing, they point to the out-migration figures but those figures mask what is actually happening. It may be true for Newfoundland as a whole, but for rural Newfoundland, the vast majority of the communities and the people in this Province, those figures mask what is really happening.

If you look at the unemployment rates, for example, and you look at Zone 19, here in the St. John's area, we see 7.7 per cent unemployment rate in 1999. I do not know what the figures are right now, as of today, but certainly they are pretty close to that. Of course, just about everybody who wants work is working, I would expect with 7.7 per cent unemployment.

If you go out to Zone 6, the tip of the Northern Peninsula, in 1999; 36.3 per cent unemployment rate. Zone 14, where the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture; 20.3 per cent, that was actually one of the better regions of the Province in 1999. Zone 15; 33.3 per cent.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. TAYLOR: Two years ago, I say to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development.

As I say, Mr. Speaker, it has not improved much. That is just one set of figures and those are the most up to date figures that we have from the zonal profiles throughout the Province. We looked at Gross Domestic Product - and the government often speaks about how Gross Domestic Product is continuing to decline. Mr. Speaker, we all know that is largely driven by oil revenues. The question is: How is that translating into disposable income for the people of this Province? If you look at how much disposal income the people of this Province have had from the period 1989 to 2000, it has pretty much been stagnate. Disposal income has hovered around, as I see it, $8.25 billion to $8.50 billion in that period. It has not gone up, dipped at one point, and rebounded a little. Mr. Speaker, it has not changed.

Lets look at the out-migration figures because this is what tells the true story of rural Newfoundland and Labrador and is why I brought this private member's resolution to the House today. In 1995-1996, 14,000-plus left the Province; 15,000 in 1996-1997; just about 17,000 in 1997-1998; 13,600 in 1998-1999; 12,600 in 1999-2000; and 14,000 in 2000-2001. Now net migration has slowed somewhat however, the people who are coming back into the Province are not coming back to Englee, they are not coming back to Conche or Roddickton or places like that, the rural communities around our Province. The people who are coming back are coming to the larger centres and as I said, this is the reason why we are talking about this today. The fact of the matter is, the situation in rural Newfoundland is vastly different than it is in places like St. John's, maybe Gander, Grand Falls, to some extent Corner Brook, and those type places.

Mr. Speaker, the true picture is that in the period from 1995-1996 to 2000-2001, 86,924 people have left this Province. While 48,000 have come back, the people who have come back have not, in most cases, come back to rural Newfoundland. They have come back to the more urban parts of Newfoundland. That is the story of what is happening in Newfoundland. The people are leaving in droves.

All we have to do is look at school populations, how those areas are declining and we can see that the rural development strategy of this government, as I have said, has failed rural Newfoundland. There might be some good stories and I am sure yes, there are - and I admit that there are some good stories in this Province - but by and large in rural Newfoundland the story is one of decline, one of depression and one of out-migration, and it continues today. While the government might try to say that it is slowing, if it is slowing the only reason that it is slowing is that the people who are able to leave, had an opportunity to leave, have left. The vast majority of the people are gone and the communities are dying. You can go around my district for one, you can go around the Member for Baie Verte's District, you can go around districts of members on the other side of the House, and you can see the same picture throughout the Province.

Mr. Speaker, government has to start putting action plans in place. While they may point to their Renewal Strategy for Jobs and Growth, Mr. Speaker, the Renewal Strategy for Jobs and Growth is long on intent and short on action. That is the problem with the Renewal Strategy for Jobs and Growth. It is like the saying: the road to hell was paved with good intentions. Mr. Speaker, good intentions don't get things done. The government needs to develop an action plan. They need to admit that what they have done over the past twelve years has not been adequate. It has failed rural Newfoundland.

I will go to the tip of the Northern Peninsula; twelve to fifteen years ago - and there has been a lot of water under the bridge in the last twelve to fifteen years - there were no food banks on the Northern Peninsula. I can tell you that, but that is not the story today. There are food banks, food hampers for Christmas, fundraisers all the time trying to raise funds and food for people throughout the area. Mr. Speaker, that is not satisfactory. It is great to talk about how things are great in urban parts of this Province, and wave the flag about the Gross Domestic Product, but unless the government starts spending money in infrastructure development out in rural Newfoundland to invest in the deteriorating water and sewer systems; to invest in transportation infrastructure; and to create a climate for private sector investment in those areas; to foster research and development in such areas as forestry; to encourage silviculture and to invest in silviculture; to put money - I noticed in the Jobs and Growths Strategy that we should encourage the federal government to invest in the Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation, continue the investment in the Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I have yet to hear it come to the table, come to the floor in this House, the Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation. It is a great institute, as far as I am concerned, with tremendous potential, with a lot of resources at its disposal -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TAYLOR: It is being funded right now, as the minister said, but while the government, a couple of weeks ago, was here trying to get research and development money for Inco, maybe if they had come here and looked for support for research and development money for the Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation, where we would all go and pursue the Atlantic Innovation Fund, then maybe we would see this happen.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, just in response to what the member is saying, I spoke to the Executive Director of the Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation just last week. Unless it has changed in the last seven days, at that time the Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation, after a year-and-a-half of pursuit of funds from the Atlantic Innovation Fund to the tune of $9.8 million, unless that has been announced in the last week, and I missed the press release, then, Mr. Speaker, they are still looking for money to do the very good work that they have done over the past ten to fifteen years.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I know that the members opposite are always eager to comment on my comments because they see such merit in the comments that I make.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I will conclude my remarks in the next short while and let hon. members throughout the House get up and pass their judgement on rural Newfoundland and Labrador. We heard some of their comments last night about how great things were. As I said, we know that there are bright spots in this Province, but for the vast majority of the people in this Province - I mean for the vast majority of the people in rural Newfoundland and Labrador because I cannot say for the vast majority of the people in the Province - where population is declining, where school population is declining, where the young people are leaving in droves, the situation is a lot different than it is in urban Newfoundland. It is a lot different than it is on the Northeast Avalon, and unless government takes action to stimulate growth and foster development in those areas, to encourage research and development in those areas, then the place is going to continue to decline.

In closing, Mr. Speaker, I really must beg of all Members of this House to put their shoulders to the wheel in a much more constructive manner than it has been done in the past twelve years, to foster development and to provide some hope for rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER (Mercer): The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ANDERSEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to speak to the motion. Mr. Speaker, I say to the hon. gentleman across the way, if he wants to talk of rural Newfoundland and Labrador, then talk no further than my riding. If the member across the way wants to talk of difficult times and social problems, look no further than my riding.

Mr. Speaker, to say that government has done nothing in the last twelve years is false and is misleading this Province.

When the TAGS program came out all across Newfoundland and Labrador, my riding was the only riding where people did not qualify because when they based the TAGS program it was based on catches in a certain year. In that year the fishery failed in my riding and there were no landings.

I remember the Member for Bonavista South, when we had an All-Party Committee that went to Ottawa, I spoke and I told them how people in my riding could not afford a Christmas card let alone a Christmas present. That is what we went through in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

I remember the times of the great cod fishery, when the Tory government was in power, when they came down and built what we call aspenite village, in Smokey, outside Rigolet, and built houses for the Newfoundland fishermen, with running water; and yet the people in Labrador could not get five cents, while the people in Rigolet never had five cents to go towards water and sewer. That is rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, there is no question that there are difficult times in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. Yes, I can say to everyone here that there were times, since I came here as a member, when I questioned this government as to what they were doing to help my riding, a riding that was impacted with social problems, suicides, and the children in Davis Inlet. No other rural community, or no other member in this House, had to deal with problems such as this.

I think, when we look at our resources and in our means of what we have done, I believe that this government has reached out in many ways to help people in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

When I read the motion, I cannot help but think of a week ago when we put forward a resolution to this floor to lobby Ottawa for money for development and research. In my riding, probably the poorest riding in this Province, lies Voisey's Bay. Mr. Speaker, I hope to God that we develop Voisey's Bay and that the rural communities in Newfoundland and Labrador are going to benefit. I hope the Member for Bonavista South, from St. Mary's the Capes, and from St. Anthony, that your people will get jobs as well.

Mr. Speaker, I stood here and I voted on the motion for money for development and research because I believe in this Province. I want to see the Member for Bonavista South, in his hiding - I know he has hard times - and the Member for St. Mary's the Capes as well. It is difficult times, we know that, but I believe that this government has done everything within its means to reach out and try to help rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

There are difficult times; I am not going to deny that. There are many things that we are still lacking in my riding.

By the way, I say to the member who put this resolution forward, and to the Member for Bonavista South who spoke, the Member for Ferryland talking about the big riding that he has, I can say to all the members here, I can take the entire Island, geographically, and fit it in my riding. That is isolation. That is remote. That is rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

I want to finish off by saying, I believe that this Province has done a lot for rural Newfoundland and Labrador. There is a lot that has to be done. There are a lot of problems out there, a lot in my riding, and I will continue to lobby. When resolutions come to the floor to lobby Ottawa, if it is for transfer payments or for money for research and development, I will support it; but to come here today and say that government has done nothing, I think it is wrong and it is misleading the people of this Province. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I will not support this resolution.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I am indeed proud today to stand on this particular motion put forward by my colleague from The Straits & White Bay North.

Mr. Speaker, with all due respect to the Member for Torngat Mountains, whom I know very well and I have a lot of respect for. As a matter of fact, I traveled to Ottawa with that particular member and we all stated our cases. Yes, we are all unique in the parts of the Province that we live in, in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. I certainly recognize the situation in the member's district when it comes to Davis Inlet and the other problems that he has mentioned in this House many times. I commend him for that. In his heart and soul, I know that he means what he is talking about when he talks about his district and the needs for his district.

Mr. Speaker, none of us in this House, as elected people in this Province, have a monopoly on what is positive and what is negative. We try to deal with the realities every day. I am from a rural Newfoundland district. Some thirty-three communities. Mr. Speaker, I deal with the same problems that the member just alluded to. I live in the district still. Every single day, right up to today, until I came to this House today, Mr. Speaker, I am continuing to get calls.

Although I hear over the debate the last couple of days, of ministers getting up and talking about: you are down in the mouth, you are negative and so on, Mr. Speaker, each and every member in this House is optimistic. You have to be optimistic in order to run for public office in this Province, at the municipal level, at the provincial level or the federal level. You have to be optimistic but, if you live in rural Newfoundland, you also have to be realistic.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!.

MR. SHELLEY: Every single day, Mr. Speaker, I deal with the realities of my district, like many other members in this Chamber. I know there are rural members on both sides. Mr. Speaker, when Mrs. Fillier took it upon herself to go on the public airwaves to tell her story, Mrs. Fillier was not alone. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, in my own district, that very weekend, when I talked to people, they told me the same type of story. That was not camera work, it was not makeup, it was real. That situation is not isolated. It is not just on the Northern Peninsula or the Baie Verte Peninsula, or the Port au Port Peninsula, or in Torngat Mountains. It is around this Province.

Mr. Speaker, with any problem that we confront in life, the first step is to recognize and acknowledge that we have the problem and to recognize how big that problem is. It is fine for ministers, and I know you have to do that in government, to a point, where you have to stand up and be positive. We should all do that, especially the ministers who are leading this Province. It is not good enough to list out ten positives and just in a passing way say, yes, we have some pockets in the Province that are not so positive. Mr. Speaker, those pockets are deep, and the minister knows they are deep. We cannot be just brushing it off on a flimsy, to say that it is just a small problem in this Province. It is a big problem, I say to the minister. It is a big problem.

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, the minister is going to interrupt on my time?

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

I did not say there were small pockets in the Province. Don't go putting words in my mouth. I will speak once and tell you what I am going to say. I do not need you to put words in my mouth. I did not say there were small pockets. I said there are certain areas of this Province that have problems.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister interrupted me. He will have his time. I am speaking now on behalf of my district. I intend to use all my time. If the minister wants to make his points, he will have all the time to do so and I will not interrupt, I say to the minister.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SHELLEY: Mr. Speaker, just a little while ago, as a matter of fact, I did an interview with the CBC Morning Show and it was all about municipal debt in this Province, if you want to really see the real picture of rural Newfoundland. The Minister of Municipal Affairs knows this. This is not a fabrication. I am not embellishing the story. We have some 150 communities in this Province dealing with debt relief today. This very day, Mr. Speaker, some 150 communities dealing with debt relief. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, just last week - and the minister also knows this, these are facts - the community of La Scie, in my district, a thriving community once prosperous with the fishery, a proud community, were within days, within days, of closing down their office, of going basically bankrupt.

Mr. Speaker, to be fair, the minister and his department attended to that situation and for the short term at least, and the interim, we are handing it. That is probably the best way I can put it,

we are handling it to this point. In the long-term we have to deal with the bigger issue.

The people of La Scie, the people who thrived on the fishing industry, looking at a fish plant this year, that they had a proud history of, had some thirty to forty people this year who could qualify for unemployment insurance. That is not a fabrication, that is a reality. When we continue on with the municipalities around this Province, when we look at 150 of them dealing with debt relief, there is a big problem. It is a big problem, Mr. Speaker.

So the truth is, as we talked about out-migration, as the Member for The Straits & White Bay did, and I spoke about it the other day, here is the reality of it. We always talk about statistics. Statistics are great, but then you have to put some real experiences in them. In the area of some 50,000 people in the last decade have left this Province. That is the decrease in our population when you talk about net-migration and so on. That is the statistics. I do not have the exact number today, but there are about 50,000 people no longer in this Province in the last ten years. To compound that, most of those - I do not have the exact statistics but maybe the minister does - I would guess 80 per cent to 90 per cent of those 50,000 people left from rural Newfoundland and Labrador. That is where they left from. That is like wiping out the population of Corner Brook and Grand Falls in one swoop. Fifty thousand people, most of them from rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

Here is a statistic that is not mentioned very much. There is probably the same amount or more - and I do not know this one - that left rural Newfoundland and Labrador to move into the bigger centers. So the truth is, it has been compounded in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. Not only did most of that 50,000 leave rural Newfoundland and go to Alberta and Ontario, friends of ours, relatives of ours, the other fact is, thousands upon thousands have left rural parts of Newfoundland; Fleur de Lys, Englee, La Scie, Harry's Harbour. All of those communities have left and gone to Corner Brook, Grand Falls, St. John's and so on.

I heard the Member for Grand Falls talk yesterday. Grand Falls is my neighbour, Mr. Speaker. I spent a lot of time there and know a lot of people there. I am delighted for the Community of Grand Falls-Windsor, and the EXCITE centre and so on. I want to make a point to the Member for Grand Falls, as she made her comments yesterday, that she was excited and excitement should be contagious. Yes, I agree. If we could spread that and people could accept it, but people cannot accept the excitement when it is not in their back yard. They are glad for them. I am sure there are people in Englee, Fleur de Lys or other places we mentioned, they are delighted to hear news that there are new jobs in Grand Falls. I do not think it is selfishness on their part to look around them and say: I wish something could happen here. I wish we could be excited about something, and be realistic. I wish we could see something down the road.

Yes, we talk about good news stories, and we have done it. The minister knows any time in public, whatever the good news announcement is, whatever it is going to be, I will commend the government any day of the week, and say: Good, there are jobs going in. I will pat them on the back and say: Go for it, I hope there is more; but you also have to recognize and acknowledge a big problem when there is a big problem. There is today in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. It is a serious problem.

When we talk about solutions - I know it is easy to criticize and people say it so often, but a suggestion, if this government remains administrating this Province and governing this Province for the next couple of years, as it says it will, we have to see a long-term plan. To simplify it and to address two issues, let's take two examples: the roads program and capital works program. The previous minister to this minister, and this minister too - the respect I give this minister. He also, I think on occasion - maybe he can speak today - agrees that a multi-year plan - I know the Minister of Municipal Affairs has agreed. In conversation I had with him, he would like a multi-year plan on capital works. I think he is working towards that. Maybe he can make something public on it some time.

Just for example, this minister and previous Ministers of Transportation have said that they would like to have a multi-year plan. But what happened? Every year, besides the fact that it is not enough to alleviate the problem, nowhere near it, when we talk about - the minister said some $200 million in requests, and he has $18 million to do road work in the Province. So what happens? We have people on the roads protesting. Who wants to go up at 6 o'clock in the morning on the La Scie highway or Harry's Harbour road and protest? These are people who have jobs and have kids at home. They do not want to be up there at 6:00 a.m., I have stood with them. Who wants to stand up there at 6 o'clock in the morning protesting because they have a gravel road? Or the La Scie highway that is so treacherous - the Member for Bay of Islands knows because he travelled with me, just a couple of weeks ago, the condition of the La Scie road.

Mr. Speaker, you talk about a plan, here is a gold mine, the only operating gold mine in Newfoundland, down that highway. We came within inches last year, Mr. Speaker, the road was in such a bad condition of basic infrastructure that a gold mine almost had to shut down in this Province. The point being, Mr. Speaker, basic infrastructure is a start. If you want to give a message to rural Newfoundland and Labrador, if this government or any government wants to give a message to rural Newfoundland and Labrador - do you know what my constituents are telling me? Do the decent thing and start your priority list, talk about infrastructure with a decent road and decent water and sewer within these communities. That is all they are asking for. They are not asking for double-lanes or a median running through Grand Falls, that the people did not even want there. They are asking for a simple, decent road to drive over, Mr. Speaker.

Imagine, in this Province today, in the year 2001, we are still with some 900 kilometers of gravel road not yet paved, Mr. Speaker, not even touched. Here is the plan of this government; every year myself and members from rural parts of Newfoundland, on both sides of the House - because they come from both sides - go to the minister and whoever can scream and shout can get two or three or four kilometers of pavement. That is the plan. The minister cannot tell you this year or next year who is getting pavement. He can tell you who needs it. He can tell you that there is 900 kilometers of gravel road in the Province. He can tell you there 1,500 kilometers of pavement, that is twenty-five years or older, and needs to be redone again.

Mr. Speaker, I have a suggestion. Government is looking for solutions. In our plan there would be a need for basic necessities starting with road work and water and sewer. Basic necessities that people deserve, no matter where they live in Newfoundland and Labrador today - should be looking for that.

When the Member from Labrador made reference yesterday to the situation in Southern Labrador doing good, I agreed with her. Do you know one of the reasons it is, Mr. Speaker? Because of the infrastructure work that is going on there now on the Trans Labrador Highway and so on. Good stuff, people see it.

Any politician who has been here for awhile in this House, Mr. Speaker, knows that for people out there who are down and out and want to see something positive, there is nothing better than seeing the paving machines coming in or to see the loaders working on water and sewer in their community. They say at least somebody cares about us. At least they are going to give us the basic necessities of life, and that is what people in rural Newfoundland have as a message. I hear it every single day. We do not want extravagant, unnecessary things, Mr. Speaker, just basic necessities.

When the minister gets up I am sure he will list out a list of positives, which he should do and which we will agree with. But you have to admit, minister, that the people of rural Newfoundland and Labrador are looking for some basics. When you see 50,000 people leaving this Province, most of them from rural Newfoundland and Labrador, you know it has to hurt. If you are losing your population, Mr. Speaker, it is a declining tax base, therefore it is tougher for those councils to make the decisions on what they are going to do to improve their communities.

That is why, Mr. Speaker, as we speak today, the Community of La Scie are still looking for councillors to come in and take over, to sit on council. I am encouraging them to do so but it is tough when they look at a budget where they almost went bankrupt a few days ago and now they are looking at trying to encourage councillors to come on the scene to help out. It is a tough job, Mr. Speaker. I have all the admiration in the world for them, especially for those people in rural Newfoundland who put themselves forward to work on municipal councils, to offer themselves as municipal councillors. I think they have to be the most respected people in Newfoundland and Labrador today, with the times we are facing in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. My hat goes off to them, and I hope we can fill those council seats. I hope that all rural Newfoundland and Labrador can have a council that is going to work for them and hopefully, Mr. Speaker, work with a provincial government hand-in-hand so that they can address the necessities of rural Newfoundland and Labrador. They are looking for some hope. That is what they are looking for, Mr. Speaker, they are looking for some hope. It does not have to be pie in the sky. We don't have to make that famous statement from twelve years ago that we are going to bring home every mother's sons and daughters. We do not have to go that far. They do not want to hear that. They just want to say, let's try to maintain what we have. Let's try to maintain the infrastructure in our communities.

Like I said before about the member from Southern Labrador, if there is any chance of rural Newfoundland rejuvenating or even maintaining what they have, if they are ever going to encourage any type of investment, whether it be a company of five or a company of twenty, to do whatever, you will not attract anybody if you do not have the basic infrastructure in your community: a decent road, a school, some decent health care, whether it is a clinic, not a full-fledged hospital -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The member's time is up.

MR. SHELLEY: By leave, just to clue up.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. SHELLEY: Just those necessary things, Mr. Speaker.

The minister took a minute-and-a-half so he is going to give me thirty seconds to clue up. That is good.

Mr. Speaker, I will clue up but I will have a lot more to say on this as we speak further on the EDGE legislation which is coming in a few days.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to make a few comments on the motion presented by the Member for The Straits & White Bay North. I would also like to make a few comments on some of the things that have been said in the House here in the last couple of days.

Mr. Speaker, while I do not like to delve into the past or into history, I think it is necessary to give my hon. colleagues across the floor a brief lesson in history. As the quote goes: He who knows nothing of his past, knows little of his present, and nothing of his future.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. REID: No, that was not Abe Lincoln.

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite, the Member for The Straits & White Bay North, for the past few weeks has been getting up here and making statements and quotes from the report that I had commissioned on Corporate Concentration in the Fishing Industry. However, he seems to omit the parts of the report that he, and his party, are not pleased about. The member opposite has made numerous statements in the House and in the press in recent days about this government is distributing poverty in its licensing of fish plants.

Mr. Speaker, I do not like to go back as far as 1975, but it is important because we have to know how we got where we are today. In 1975, some three years after the Tory government took power in this Province for the first time, there were ninety-five fish plants in this Province, in Newfoundland and Labrador. Five years later in 1980, there were 169 licensed fish plants. So, in four or five years they went from ninety-five to 169.

Mr. Speaker, between 1981 and 1989 they issued an additional sixty or seventy licences. The thing about it is, in 1989, when we took power, when we took the government back from the Tories, we were left with 251 fish plants in this Province. In fact - I am not sure but I am pretty certain - that they were issuing licences right up to the election in 1989, and even during it. So, when we took power in 1989 we had in excess of 250 fish plants in our Province, as a result of Tory policies. This is why I am confused when the Member for The Straits & White Bay North talks to me about distributing poverty in this Province. I say to the member opposite that we stopped distributing poverty in this Province when we took power in 1989.

Mr. Speaker, not only that, the Member for Lewisporte knows, he was the Minister of Fisheries for four or five years in the late 1980s. He knew the situation of the fish stocks at the time, and when we took control of the government in 1989, we were faced with declining cod stocks, and shortly after that we witnessed the closure of fish plants in St. John's, Trepassey, Gaultois, Grand Bank and Ramea. That wasn't the worst of it. That was in the early 1990s. In 1992, Mr. Speaker, came the moratorium, and we know what happened during the moratorium. We had thousands of harvesters and processors, fish plant workers, thrown out of work all around this Province, Mr. Speaker.

MR. TULK: What provincial government was in power when we destroyed that stock?

MR. REID: We know the answer to that. We know why we had to close the fishery in 1992, Mr. Speaker.

I remember, after the moratorium was called, traveling to Fogo Island at that time. I wasn't the MHA at the time, but I was working for the Fisheries Minister of the day. I remember traveling to Fogo Island and I remember leaving on the ferry that afternoon and thinking to myself: What are these people, who depend solely on the fishery, going to do? What are they going to do when they depended so heavily on the cod stocks off the coast of Fogo Island? I said: I don't see a future for them.

Well, let me tell you: This summer on Fogo Island there were three plants in operation, a shrimp plant in Seldom, a crab plant in Fogo and a groundfish plant in Joe Batt's Arm. Mr. Speaker, there was full employment, or pretty well full employment, on Fogo Island this summer.

I also had the opportunity, in the time following the moratorium in 1992, to travel to Southern Labrador, in The Straits district represented by my colleague behind me here. I remember the devastation that these people were witnessing as a result of the collapse of the groundfish fishery. Many in the Province figured that those towns along the Coast of Southern Labrador would never survive and that they would have to leave.

Well, Mr. Speaker, I visited those areas the summer and am proud to be able to tell members opposite that in plants in L'Anse-au-Loup, Mary's Harbour, St. Lewis, Charlottetown, Black Tickle and Cartwright - I visited all those fish plants this summer. I made it a point to ask the foreman in each one of these fish plants: How many people are unemployed in these towns? Each town I went into, every fish plant, I asked the owner or the operator of the fish plant: How many people are unemployed in this town? You know what the answer was that came back to me every time? Anyone who wants a job in this town can have one right here in this fish plant.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: This summer we had total employment, I will have you to know, in the district represented so admirably by my colleague, the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I can talk to you about many other success stories in the Province. I can tell you about my colleague in Bonavista North, his district, where Beothuck Fisheries operates, one of the best operators that we have in the Province. I remember talking to the individuals who run that operation down there back in late June of this year, and they were waiting for the kids to get out of high school because they needed more employees in those plants.

Mr. Speaker, I am not saying that we have successfully rebounded from the moratorium. I am not saying that the fishery is perfect. What I am saying is that we have come a long way since 1992 when the moratorium was called. Back in the early 1990s, the total export value of fish products from this Province was somewhere in the area of $600 million. Well, last year, Madam Speaker, for the first time in the history of this Province, the export value of fish products exceeded $1 billion.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: While I sit back here every day and listen to the members opposite talking about their doom and their gloom and the bottom is out of her and the sky is falling - because that is all I have heard in the last four weeks that I have sat patiently over here listening to them, Madam Speaker. The bottom has not fallen out of her and the sky is not falling.

Let me talk to you about some of the positive initiatives that this government has undertaken in the last few years. To begin with, back in 1989, as I told you, we inherited 251 fish plants around the Coast of Newfoundland and Labrador; 251. I notice that the members opposite don't want to hear that figure today. Well, since that time, Madam Speaker, we have reduced that number of fish plants from 251 to 125. That is not an easy task, as the Member for Lewisporte well knows, when every day you have members of communities knocking on your door, looking for a crab licence or looking for a shrimp licence. They think that is their only salvation, the only way that they are going to survive, to have a crab licence. Madam Speaker, we all know that you cannot issue crab licences to every community in this Province, even though the Member for The Straits stood in this House here in the last four or five weeks and continually made reference to the fact that he wanted one for St. Anthony, while at the same time condemning me for giving a licence to Twillingate.

We work closely with the industry to enhance the quality of our product. We have not been, or we had not been, producing a top-notch quality fish product for sale in the U.S. and Europe for a number of years, but because of the initiatives undertaken by my predecessor we did bring in a quality enhancement program, we did hire a number of inspectors. In fact, we had twenty-seven last year. I would like to inform the House that the quality of our fish export has improved dramatically and is known now throughout the world as a good quality product.

While we have some work to do on that, we are at least heading in the right direction. I am confident that the people of this Province, the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, will produce a great fish product that will be known worldwide for being such.

There are a number of other things we have done through the Fisheries Diversification Program, a program that we cost-share with the federal government. We have done a lot of initiatives. We have implemented, or helped companies bring on new products; we have helped with processing technologies; we have helped with modernizing fish plants; we have helped with market development; we have helped with harvesters and so on. I am not saying that everything is perfect in the industry, but we have come a long way in the last seven or eight years.

One of the best things that we have done since 1992 is the mechanism that we have put in place for pricing for fish products in our Province. Prior to 1995-1996, each spring, when the harvesters came to the processors to negotiate prices for their products, we usually ended up in a strike position, which delayed the fishery and caused harm in the marketplace.

Madam Speaker, we brought legislation in here in 1987-1988 called the Final Offer Selection. We are very proud of that. In fact, the government in Nova Scotia have been looking at this system and they are looking at implementing it themselves.

We have come a long way. We have a lot further to go, but we have come a long way. We are going to continue to proceed with our plan. The hon. members opposite continuously say that we do not have a plan. I am proud of the plan that we have had. I am proud of the plan that we have, and will continue to work with the people of this Province to see that plan is implemented.

In aquaculture, if the members opposite have not had the opportunity, I would love for them to go down into the Bay d'Espoir region and see the numbers of people employed. Up at the head of Bay d'Espoir, there was a fish plant last year that employed somewhere in the area of fifty to seventy people for thirty-eight weeks. Processing what, Madam Speaker? Aquaculture fish, salmon and steelhead trout. A beautiful facility with lots of room for expansion and great potential.

My colleague from Bonavista North mentions a cod hatchery. We are working very closely right now with a number of individuals in this Province, in the private sector, to establish Newfoundland and Labrador's first cod hatchery. I am very excited about that because I think that is where the future of many of our rural communities is, in cod aquaculture; not just from the harvesting point of view but from the processing. I honestly believe that a number of the fish plants that we have on the South Coast could, in the next few years, be reopened for extended periods of time, processing nothing only aquaculture cod. We have done a lot. We have taken a leadership role, Madam Speaker, and we will continue to do so.

I have been accused by the Member for The Straits & White Bay on a number of occasions that we do not have a plan for the industry. That is all I hear opposite, every one of them getting up: You don't have a plan. What is your plan?

I refer, and I don't like to do this very often, to The Newfoundland Herald and an article that Mark Critch had in there this week, when he talked about the plan that they so jealousy guard over on the other side of the floor. We have not heard any of the platforms in that plan, Madam Speaker, but every day they say to us: You do not have a plan. They have nothing to offer. Indirectly, the Member for The Straits & White Bay North has let slip one of the planks of their platform. That is to close fish plants in this Province, because he says we cannot distribute poverty. I can tell you, Madam Speaker, the first fish plant to close in this Province, if the hon. member gets his way, is Twillingate. He has said it time and time again, that I should not have issued a licence for Twillingate. Madam Speaker, I will tell you, and I will tell the member opposite, I will not apologize for reissuing a licence to the Town of Twillingate for a fish plant. I will not apologize!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: In fact, Madam Speaker, Twillingate should never have been out of the fishery, to have to come back in. One day the member opposite says: I should not have given the licence to Twillingate. The next day his leader, in another area of the Province, like the time in Lewisporte: Oh, don't mind what the member said about that. Don't mind the member; he is not speaking for the party. We will straighten him out. He tells the people in Lewisporte, from my district, one thing and then his colleague stands and says something totally different. Madam Speaker, I have been listening to that now for four weeks from the people opposite.

AN HON. MEMBER: Take your time now.

MR. REID: Don't worry.

Madam Speaker, I would also like to say that the member opposite - we talk about FPI and they are saying that what is happening with FPI is going to be the death of the fishery, and that is the indication we are given, but if you want to talk to the Member for Bonavista South, he claims that this year they had more employment in that plant than they had last year, Madam Speaker. I hope that continues.

He talks about Catalina, and I know full well that back in the early 1990s and in the 1980s that plant did employ roughly 1,000 or 1,200 people, as many of the plants in your own district did. Unfortunately, with the moratorium, it was cut off. These people found themselves without a means to support their families.

As he talked about yesterday, the tannery that they have in Catalina, last year employed fifty people year round. That is not going to be the same economic engine that they have had in the past. At least, Madam Speaker, it is something. It is something positive and it is something to build on, just like the plant they have in Bonavista. I know the hon. Member for Bonavista South appreciates it and he appreciates the company that are in there. They are doing a remarkable job taking sealskin pelts to the garment stage, that are being exported worldwide today. A fabulous product, Madam Speaker, and I wish them all the luck. I hope they can continue to be prosperous. As the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development said, that is another example of how EDGE worked - a program that was implemented by this government - and will continue to work.

Madam Speaker, I am not going to talk too much longer. I would like to hear eventually what their plan is going to be. It is easy for them to sit back and talk about the doom and the gloom. We never hear anything positive from these individuals, Madam Speaker. I do not think that we are going to. They say they are going to hold their plan until the next election. They are going to hold their plan until the next election, at the same time out criticizing us for doing what we are doing. The hon. Member for Lewisporte knows that the fisheries portfolio and the fishery in this Province is a difficult portfolio. I am not condemning the hon. gentleman over there for issuing some of the licences that he issued while -

MR. RIDEOUT: I never issued a groundfish licence while I was there.

MR. REID: You issued other licences, though. You issued other licences. I am talking to the Member for Lewisporte, Madam Speaker, who was not a bad Fisheries Minister. He understands, I think, more so than his colleagues because it was prior to 1999, and I would like for the Member for Lewisporte to know this, prior to 1999 when he was re-elected, the period from 1996 until 1999, I sat here and any time that we mentioned what the Tories did in the past, his colleagues across the floor would say: Oh, it wasn't us. We had nothing to do with them.

They didn't want anything to do with you then, I say to the Member for Lewisporte. I tell you, you were not a bad Fisheries Minister.

Some of the programs that you brought in were good ones and they are still good.

MADAM SPEAKER (M. Hodder): Order, please!

I remind the hon. the minister that his time is up.

MR. REID: By leave, Mr. Speaker, in closing.

MADAM SPEAKER: Does the hon. the minister have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MADAM SPEAKER: No leave granted.

The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I am pleased today to stand and say a few words in relation to the private member's resolution put forward by my colleague. I am going to, maybe for a moment first, talk about a few positive things that are happening in my district.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: Wait until I am finished, I say to the Minster of Industry, Trade and Rural Development.

A few positive things are happening in my district. I look at the Emerald Sod Producers operation down in St. Shotts, a very, very successful operation, Mr. Pat Hewitt. I look at a whale watching operation that is happening in St. Vincent's over the past couple of years that has been put in place and has brought tours down to our area, to the Holyrood Pond area, another great operation. I look at Daley's plant in St. Joseph's that just got reorganized into a shrimp facility providing a couple of hundred jobs over the past couple of years. I look at the development at the Rocky River Salmon Enhancement Project, another great project. Windy Meadow kennels in Branch, St. Mary's Bay, owner Tom Power, who is shipping dogs around Canada and around the world, as a matter of fact, Madam Speaker. I look at Spy Glass Limited in Ship Cove, who has created 100 per cent employment in that community; even though there are only five or six people there, they are all working. That is 100 per cent employment in that community with Spy Glass Limited. I look a new operation down in Argentia called Epoch Rock, where the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology was out to last year and got up in an excavator and tipped her over. It wasn't just cutting the ribbon.

MR. TULK: I done some job, eh?

MR. MANNING: Well, I have to question now whether they would hire you on as an operator but when I looked at the concern he had, I said, he is used to being in a situation like that because he was digging a hole with the excavator. The Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology was digging a hole, so he was very comfortable in the position he was in because he was digging a hole, and he continues to dig a hole every time he speaks, Madam Speaker.

When I look around at my District of Placentia & St. Mary's, I see positive things happening. I see positive things happening because I have some great people in my district who take the bull by the horns and go out and put the shoulder to the wheel and create those things to happen; but, at the same time, I have to deal with the reality of the situation. The reality of the situation is that there are a lot of places in my district, many communities in my district, many people in my district who are hurting. They are hurting because of the situation we have in the fishery.

I just listened to the Minister of Fisheries talk about what is happening the past couple of years, and the fact that we have a billion-dollar industry, and I echo the comments. I mean, thank God that we had the fishery in Newfoundland and Labrador. It has been a growing industry; but, at the same time, Madam Speaker, in Zone 18, which is part of my district, you cannot process one crab in Zone 18. You cannot process a crab in Zone 18. In Jerseyside, Placentia area, you had millions of pounds of crab being landed on the wharf. In St. Bride's, Branch and down through St. Mary's Bay, you have millions of pounds of crab being processed, and in Zone 18 you cannot process a crab. At the same time, across the road in the District of Port de Grave, we have eight or nine crab licences. There are a number of crab licences in Port de Grave. There are a number of crab licences in other parts of the district, in a very small closeness to each other. That, to me, is not proper planning. That is what I say to the minister. It is not proper planning when you can drive twenty minutes or half-an-hour and pass four crab plants, and when you drive right through Zone 18, you cannot have a crab licence. That is the kind of things that we are talking about on this side.

We talked about the crab operations, I say to the Minister of Fisheries.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I did not interrupt the Minister of Fisheries when he was up. I am just making a few comments, if I could, concerning my district.

We have a situation in my district where we could have hundreds of jobs, Madam Speaker, only for the fact that the immense amount of product that has been caught by our fishermen, caught by our harvesters, is being exported out of this Province for processing somewhere else. That is a major concern that we have raised, I have raise before, and I know the minister is concerned about that, the amount of processing jobs that are leaving the Province. We need to sit down with the people involved and try to keep as many jobs here in the Province as we can, and not take no for an answer in some of these situations. I know it is tough. I know quite well it is tough.

Madam Speaker, another concern I have in my district, which government would play an important role in, is the development of proper roads. If you travel throughout my district, we have the gateway to the Avalon area in Argentia that brings in thousands of tourists every summer. You get off the ferry and travel down to the Cape Shore, down towards Cape St. Mary's or down into St. Mary's Bay, Father Duffy's Well, Rocky River, the whale watching in St. Vincent's and so on, and you have deplorable road conditions. It is an excellent place for the government to do something positive in that regard, and to create an area where we have a developing tourism industry, but we need the road infrastructure to go along with it.

An important thing that we need to do, Madam Speaker, and the government needs to look at, is telecommunications. I listened to the media today where we were celebrating the 100^th Anniversary of the Marconi wireless message. From one end of the world, Madam Speaker, to the other, we can relay a wireless message, but when go halfway down Salmonier Line and you cannot use your cell phone, I mean there is something wrong with that system. Government needs to look at that in order to have - and I hear it time and time again - you know, the opportunity to have a business anywhere in rural Newfoundland. This situation, when you cannot operate a cell phone in many parts of my district, I think that is the place where the government could come in.

Last year, I attended a function at the Legion Club in Placentia where a company called PB Tech was willing to set up a help desk in Argentia and they needed fibre optic cable to come from Whitbourne down into Dunville. The fibre optic cable was already in Dunville, but it needed to travel down the Argentia Access road for a cost of somewhere around $1 million. Because the government was not willing to step up to the plate we lost that opportunity to create 300 jobs in our area.

It is easy for the government to say, or easy for anybody to say, to set up shop in the larger centers like St. John's, Corner, Grand Falls-Windsor and those places, but government needs to be involved in order to get those businesses to come into rural Newfoundland. The population basis in the larger areas, Madam Speaker, dictate many times the opportunity to bring the businesses into those areas, but there are many parts of rural Newfoundland, certainly in my district, that need that government intervention. It needs a plan to deal with telecommunications and it needs a plan to bring the jobs into rural Newfoundland.

Mr. Speaker, I look back at the relocation plan of the government which they tout has done so much for rural Newfoundland. There is no doubt about it, Madam Speaker, that there are certain parts of the Province that have benefitted from the relocation plan. There is no doubt about that, but the fact is that many rural parts of the Province, the real rural parts of the Province, have not.

I look at situations where you have government services moved out of St. John's, which is a large center, into other large centers. Again, the opportunities for jobs in these large centers are there already. Madam Speaker, there is no Wal-Mart on the lower road in Cuslett. There is no Tim Hortons in Coote's Pond in Riverhead. There is no Price Club in Path End in St. Mary's. You know these are the places that need government help. These are the places that need someone to step in and to provide the jobs for. Therefore it is important that we look at rural Newfoundland in a different light than we look at it in regards to how the people are looking at the larger centers.

A few moment ago I mentioned about PB Tech, the telecommunications aspect of things. There is a concern, Madam Speaker, in the fishery in my district, many concerns, that we need to certainly have a plan in place that utilizes the best areas. There is not going to be a plant in every community anymore, Madam Speaker, but there is an opportunity here to have a plan in place where a shrimp caught in my district or crab caught in my district will be able to be produced there. We have to have a serious look at that

Mr. Speaker, we look at the government touting its plans. You know, for the past number of years that I have been here, every couple of months you get a new catalogue. You get a new catalogue from the people opposite. I mean, I have several of them here on my desk. Mr. Speaker, every month or every couple of months we get a new catalogue. We have an On deck and Below catalog, an Achieving Excellence 2000 catalogue, a Strategy for Small Scale Manufacturing in Newfoundland and Labrador catalogue, the Economy 2001 catalogue, Securing Our Future Together catalogue, People, Partners and Prosperity, a Strategic Social Plan for Newfoundland and Labrador. Mr. Speaker, people in this Province today are looking at catalogues. They are looking at the Christmas catalogue, hoping to be able to get something for their children, hoping to be able to get something for their family. It is a wish list in a lot of cases. In most case, these catalogues here are wish lists also, Madam Speaker.

It is important that we take a serious, serious look at rural Newfoundland. I have some serious problems in my district, Madam Speaker, in relation to the fisheries, and serious problems in relation to development and creation of jobs. We have an opportunity to create jobs in Argentia, hopefully, through the Voisey's Bay development. I continue to ask questions on that, because I believe it is important that we ask questions, and ensure that we get the right deal for the people of the Province, that we get the right deal for the people that I represent. It is important that we continue to ask the questions, and that we have an opportunity, through the questions, to find out what the plans are. Not for me, Madam Speaker. I am not going to be working in Argentia, but my children or grandchildren may. It is important that we get the opportunity here in the House, through debate, to ask the questions that concern the people in the Province, to ask the questions that concern the people in our districts. It is important that government take a serious look at a true rural Newfoundland plan, because rural Newfoundland is in desperate need of assistance. It is in desperate need of having implementation from the government. That is something that we can work with and work into the future with.

Madam Speaker, I want to go back for a moment, if I could, to the fishery, because I believe the fishery has been the major source in the past in relation to creating jobs in my district. I traveled down through St. Mary's Bay, to plants like we had in St. Mary's this year, the crab plant in St. Mary's, and you know the people there in St. Mary's try their best to get as much utilization out of that plant as they can.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I cannot hear you, I say to the minister.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. MANNING: I can't hear you. I am sorry.

What I am saying to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development - and I certainly welcome the interjection because I like to know what is happening - is, we had an opportunity last year to create 300 jobs in Argentia with PB Tech if they had to get up and running with the help desk. The problem seemed to be that the fibre optic cable was not coming from Whitbourne down into Dunville. The fibre optic cable was in Dunville. What I am saying is that we understand that businesses such as NewTel and other businesses, in larger areas, do not have a problem. They do not have a problem with setting up shop because they have the population there to get the money back that they invest. What I am saying is that there are situations, such as the one with PB Tech, I think, where government needs to step in and help out.

We need to ensure that the fibre optic cable - if all that is holding up the 300 possible jobs in Argentia is the fiber optic cable from Whitbourne to Dunville, I think the minister would agree that is something that we all could look at together and try to get it put in place. Madam Speaker, we have been at it for quite some time. I say to the minister, I just want to bring it up today because it is one of the situations in my district that I believe needs to be looked at, and it is an opportunity for government to step in and do something about.

Madam Speaker, as I said, there are some things happening in rural Newfoundland and some things happening in my district of a positive nature, but there is concern out there, and I want to get back, if I could, once again to the fishery. We have a situation in my district in Zone 18 where we do not have a crab licence. We have millions of pounds of crab that are caught in that area, and not produced in Zone 18. The RED board, the zone board, has been pushing for it, the Chamber of Commerce has been pushing for it, the town councils have been pushing for it, many of the organizations out in the area have been pushing for it over the past number of years. No, it has not come to fruition.

I understand, Madam Speaker, I understand fully, that you cannot have a fish plant or a crab licence in every community, you cannot have a shrimp licence in every community, but if we have a regional plan, a regional focus, if we have the ideas put in place to share the wealth around the area, to share the wealth around the zone, at least, then, I think, we would have an opportunity to have a crab licence in the zone.

Not only crab, Madam Speaker, we have a marine center down in Admiral's Beach owned by the provincial government up to a couple of years ago and was turned over to a local committee. The marine center needs some major infrastructure work at a tune of several hundred thousand dollars. They have much, much larger boats that they are dealing with there now. I was down there a couple of weeks ago. The yard there is full of longliners, Madam Speaker, from throughout my district and from other people's districts. The fact is that the marine centre is not able to keep up with the structure of the boats that are there now. Again, it is an opportunity there for government to intervene, to put some money on the table. There was a plan a couple of years ago. We went down there. We had the provincial government at the table, we had the federal government at the table, we had all the different funding agencies at the table, and they wanted a study. I think it was the time FRAM-ED was on the go, Madam Speaker, and we had a study that they were looking at.

We got all of the funding partners at the table and they demanded that we have a study put in place. The study cost $70,000, I think it was, and by the time they got the study completed and presented back to the funding agencies, all the funding was gone from FRAM-ED. Here we paid $70,000 on a study, where the people in that area, the people who operate the marine centre in Admiral's Beach know full well what needs to be done there. They have some excellent ideas and they have a plan, Madam Speaker. They know what to do in Admiral's Beach, but again they need government assistance to do that, to make a very viable operation, an operation that is surviving now on tooth and nail, but a very viable operation we could have in Admiral's Beach if we had the opportunity to put some government funding into that.

We have situations, Madam Speaker, trying to develop our tourism industry. Again, both zones boards in my district are involved in developing tourism industry. You have the Irish Loop Regional Economic Development Board and you have the Avalon Gateway Regional Economic Development Board, very involved in developing tourism in my district, Madam Speaker. Again, these organizations get together, these organizations develop a plan, and then when it comes up for funding, someone dictates to them what has to be funded. Their number one priority is not necessarily what happens most of the time, Madam Speaker, and that concerns me because you have to look at things in black and white. You cannot look at things in red and blue and, I say to the minister, that is how he looks at it.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind the hon. member that his time is up.

MR. MANNING: Just thirty seconds to clue up, Madam Speaker, if I could?

MADAM SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave to conclude?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. MANNING: It is important, Madam Speaker, that we take a serious look at rural Newfoundland; that we put a plan in place that is fully backed up by the Cabinet. It needs funding to make sure that these operations are put in place. I hope today, by having the opportunity here to discuss the concerns and the problems in rural Newfoundland, and myself having the opportunity to discuss and talk about the concerns in Placentia & St. Mary's, that the government will take a serious look at it and know that the plans that they have in place are not working and it is time to develop and get back and, as the former minister said, sharpen up your pencils and get a good plan in place that will do something for rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I don't intend to speak for a long time, certainly probably not to the time available to the speakers in the debate, but the private member's resolution, I think, is a serious enough one that I would like to make a few comments.

First, from this point of view, it is obvious to me unfortunately again - I say this and I know that I will probably get howls from the Opposition - that the very nature in which they have written the resolution shows the fact that they are not serious about this issue. The fact is, Madam Speaker, if they were serious about it and they wanted this House, on a Private Members' Day, to support a resolution that talked about trying to do more for rural Newfoundland and Labrador, which is what I understand we are supposed to be seriously talking about, that is the intent, to talk about that issue, just as members did yesterday and last evening in a debate with respect to the new EDGE program, where we are trying to find mechanisms that really encourage people to establish economic development opportunities in Newfoundland and Labrador, anywhere in Newfoundland and Labrador but particularly and especially outside the Northeast Avalon which is doing very well of and by itself for a whole lot of reasons that have been articulated in this Legislature.

That is the whole intent of the debate, and I understand that was the intent of the debate that we are having here today with this resolution. We have a resolution, Madam Speaker, that somebody would stand up, a private member would stand up, and seriously expect the government which has done an awful lot every single year to try to spread some of the economic benefits outside the Northeast Avalon to the rural regions of the Island and into Labrador, an awful lot - and I could list a record, because it seems obvious that we on this side, Madam Speaker, acknowledge the problems, we acknowledge the deficiencies, but we tend, because we are Liberals, I guess, because of how we see the world, to see -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: We acknowledge the problems, but we tend to see the glass as half full. We acknowledge it is not full, far from it, and that is the reality of what every speaker on this side has been saying in the debates any time this issue comes to this Legislature.

On the other side, because they are more interested, obviously - and I will talk about it in terms of this particular motion and how it is worded today. It speaks volumes about the fact that they are only interested in a political comment and a statement, instead of taking advantage of a day like today to encourage all of us to do more for rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Why, Mr. Speaker, would anybody, in their right mind, with the right motivation and the right intention, expect a government to stand up and vote to condemn itself? I mean, it is pure folly. It shows that there is no seriousness to the motion. Now, if they wanted us to concentrate and wanted us to be encouraged today by a member from rural Newfoundland and Labrador to do more, they would say something along the lines of: BE IT RESOLVED that this House encourage the government to increase and improve and enhance more of its initiatives with respect to trying to build rural Newfoundland and Labrador, which is what we are trying to do every day.

Madam Speaker, instead of that, what are we asked to vote on, which we have no choice but to vote against, because it is stupid, to use a strong word, it is wrong, to use another word, to ask the government to stand up and vote for a resolution that says: This House condemns the government. Now, they seriously want us to consider standing up and voting on a motion to condemn ourselves. Now, how serious, I ask you, Madam Speaker, I ask the members opposite, I ask the mover of the motion, I ask the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, how serious can anybody be about this debate today, if that is what they are really asking us to do?

There is still time, Madam Speaker, for a speaker from the other side, maybe even the mover, if they want, to move a friendly amendment because we would gladly vote for a motion that says: Encourage the government to do more. Encourage the government to try harder. Encourage the government to bring in more initiatives that favour Newfoundland and Labrador in its rural components, so that we can try to spread the wealth and maybe bring the rest of Newfoundland and Labrador up to a standard that is now on the northeast Avalon, that might be present in a few other places, like in Arnold's Cove, like out around New-West-Valley, like out around Grand Falls-Windsor, like out around Gander and the surrounding area. But the regions are scattered, they are not enough, in our view, which is why we have had the Jobs and Growth agenda, why we have spent hundreds of millions of dollars, in the twelve years that I have talked to in this motion, in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, so that we can bring a better level of equality, because we recognize, Madam Speaker, that there is inequality, that the people who live in and around the Northeast Avalon have a better opportunity in Newfoundland and Labrador today than the people in many parts of rural Newfoundland. We have always acknowledged that.

It cannot, obviously, be a serious attempt. Here we are using a couple of hours in the Legislature, and they are going to ask us at the end of the day to try to stand up and seriously consider voting on a motion to condemn something that has been the heart and soul of what we have been trying to do for a dozen years, and we are making some progress.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: We are making some progress, Madam Speaker. It talks about social and economic decline. Let's talk, just as an example - because I was the Education Minister for three years, and the Health Minister - let's talk about what we have done on the social side in education to try to create a better opportunity in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. We created a new law, in this Legislature, with unanimous support, that recognized, what? It recognized that in small rural Newfoundland communities you had to have a different set of rules for the existence of a school than you did in the larger centers. We created a law that said: There will be small, necessarily-existent schools in rural Newfoundland and Labrador regardless of what happens to the student population.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: We did that. We did that because there was a recognition that there is a different circumstance in rural Newfoundland and Labrador than there is in the larger centers and particularly in the Northeast Avalon. We changed the rules for teacher allocation. There were a set of rules for teacher allocation that were completely changed for the Northern Peninsula, for the Southern Straits of Labrador, for the North Coast of Labrador. They were completely different rules. They were doled out on a numbers basis, just a mathematical formula for places like St. John's because there were lots of students, lots of teachers, lots of schools and it made sense. But, what did we do on the Northern Peninsula? We said, regardless of the formula, the schools stay open because they are necessarily-existent and the teachers stay in them regardless of what happens to the number of students; until, unfortunately in some cases, the school itself might disappear, as it has in some communities in my own district, because there are no children left.

We do not look at that as a condemnation of anyone. We look at it as a recognition of the reality of what is occurring in some parts of rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

We would gladly, on this side - because there will be no choice, it does not make any sense and it is pure folly to expect that we are going to stand up and vote for this motion as it is worded. We will vote against the motion.

If, in fact, Madam Speaker, they are serious about wanting to send a message today, let's send a message today from everybody in this Legislature that we want to refocus our efforts for rural Newfoundland and Labrador, that we want to try to do more, that we want to have special programming, that we want to have different rules because we are dedicated and committed to trying to even up some of the circumstances which we recognize as being uneven - I will not move an amendment myself, it is their motion - the Member for The Straits & White Bay North - but anyone on that side who would like to move an amendment, we would gladly vote for any motion that says: Let's all commit to doing more for rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

This motion, I think, as it is worded, reflects the way, unfortunately, that the Opposition has operated for the last two or three weeks. They are only interested in making a political point and grandstanding. We are serious about trying to do the business of the Province -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: - and improving the lot of the people in Newfoundland and Labrador rurally, particularly, if we can accomplish it at all.

I appreciate the opportunity to make those few comments in this debate, Madam Speaker. I would hope, because we would like to vote, we would like to have a vote of confidence and support from everybody in the House encouraging all of us, holding us to task, and asking us to do things like we are doing in the new EDGE legislation, asking us to give special consideration to rural Newfoundland and Labrador in everything that we do as the government. We would gladly vote for that if someone would make an amendment to the motion that would make it acceptable, rather than playing political games by asking a government to stand up and condemn itself, which everybody in Newfoundland and Labrador knows does not make sense and is not going to happen. Not only that, today in the Province, the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, in my view, are not condemning us. They are supporting what we are doing and they hope we get to do more of it.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I say to you, Madam Speaker, that we all may not be as smart as the Premier over here, but I do not know if we are all stupid either. You can call me stupid any day, I say to the Premier, for speaking out on behalf of rural Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: You can judge the Opposition a Loyal Opposition any day, and call them stupid for speaking out on behalf (inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: A point of order, Madam Speaker.

MADAM SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Premier.

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I just wanted to point out that everyone in this Legislature heard the context in which I used the word stupid. I said it was stupid to ask and expect the government to vote for a motion to condemn itself. I did not suggest that any person in this Legislature is stupid and I indicate and we are seeing now in the early stages of a debate again, a member more interested in trying to make a political point than dealing with the issues.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Madam Speaker, the people of Newfoundland and Labrador will know the meaning of stupid when they seen the actions of this government last Wednesday on a private member's day change a resolution that was brought to this House to deal with child poverty and make the people who are sitting on this side of the House vote against it. Maybe that is the true meaning of stupid.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: I say to members opposite, in order to know what you are dealing with, in order to know the way people are living today, in order to know the hurt in rural Newfoundland and Labrador you had to have lived and stood in that person's shoes. Mr. Speaker, you are looking at a member today who knows what it is to be unemployed. You are looking at a member right here who knows what it is to put on a pair of rubber boots and go into a fishplant and go to work. You are looking at a member here today who knows what it is to have to leave his family behind and go away with a knot in his stomach like that and come home and have his family members, his children afraid to go close to him because he has been gone so long to try to feed their family. This member has gone through that, I say to people opposite. This member knows what it is like when the telephone rings -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: No, I am not saying I am the only one, but I can relate to it when the telephone rings and somebody calls me and says: I got a job up in Alberta or I got a job up in British Columbia but I do not want to go because I want to work in Newfoundland and Labrador. I can relate to that because I know what it is, I have done it. If you lived in an environment or if you have been fortunate enough to not have to go and draw unemployment insurance or to have to leave home to find a job - it is very difficult. It is very difficult to relate to that because you are okay yourself. As I said, in order to know where you are going in your future, you have to realize where you have been in the past. You have to realize where those people are coming from.

Mr. Speaker, while there are positive things happening in some parts of rural Newfoundland and Labrador, there are some very negative things that are happening out there as well. Some very negative things. One thing that we have to change is the mindset of some business people. I could never understand, I say to members opposite, when I talk to somebody who is graduating from a post-secondary school, institution, they say to me that I have to leave home to get experience. Our young people have to go to Alberta, have to go to Ontario to get experience. Well I say to people opposite, if a business person up in Ontario or up in Alberta will hire our Newfoundlanders, then why can't a business person here hire them and allow them to gain that experience. That mindset has to change. If they have enough experience to work in Ontario then they should have enough experience to work here.

Mr. Speaker, I heard the Minister of Labour get up last night and talk about how excited she was of all the wonderful things that were happening. I heard the Member from Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair get up and talk about how excited she was about all the wonderful things that were happening. The only member that I heard get up on the other side and talk realistically about what was happening in his district was the Member for Torngat Mountains.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: The Member for Torngat Mountains said: yes, there are some positive things happening but there is a great need in my district. There is a great need. My people have a great need, and that is the message that we are bringing across here. A realistic message, I say to people opposite.

Last night we were debating Bill 60 here in the Legislature, the double-EDGE legislation. I was waiting to see who was getting up on the other side, to see what they were going to talk about. I did not see the Member for the Burin Placentia West get up and talk about the wonderful things that were happening in her district. I did not hear the Member for Port de Grave get up and talk about the wonderful things that were happening in his district.

AN HON. MEMBER: They are all happy.

MR. FITZGERALD: They are all happy. Well I suggest to you, sir, that you go out and talk to some women out in Upper Island Cove who have to go up to Nova Scotia picking apples every year. I suggest you go out and talk to those women who have to go and live in a trailer by themselves all during the fall of the year and get a half day off in order to look after their washing and their other personal needs. I can submit to you, sir, that they are not happy people. There are lots of districts represented by people on the opposite side who have the same problems and the same concerns as the people who are representing districts on this side.

You talk about attracting new industry, you talk about putting a business climate there and creating an environment where people will come and invest in your district. Mr. Speaker, I have stood here day-after-day presenting petitions on road work that needs to be done in my district. I would suggest that if anybody is going to go down to any rural area, and I am speaking of my area right now, then the first thing they are going to look at is the infrastructure that is in those places.

I question the government's cousins up in Ottawa. I stood here last night and talked about thousands of people who got laid off down in Bonavista South when the moratorium was introduced in 1992. I would refer it to the equivalency of a mining town. I would refer to it as the equivalency of Labrador West, if they closed the mine down in Labrador West. That is what happened in Bonavista South.

What do the member's cousins do up in Ottawa? While we are here talking about the need to generate employment opportunities, talking about the need to create some industry in the rural areas, especially on the tip of the Bonavista Peninsula, what do they do? What do they do? They had a fisheries office down in Catalina that has been there for probably fifty years, a fisheries office where it should be, where the action is, where the wharves are, where the fishing boats are, where the fish plants are. What do they do, Mr. Speaker? The federal government decides that they are going to build a new fisheries office. Where do they put it? Where did it go, I say to the Member for Bellevue? Where is the new fisheries office built?

AN HON. MEMBER: Trinity North.

MR. FITZGERALD: That is exactly right, built in Clarenville. Built a new fisheries building, a new fisheries office in Clarenville, took the workers from Catalina, Bonavista, and said: If you want to continue working for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, you move to Clarenville.

Now, is that a commitment to rural Newfoundland and Labrador? Is that a commitment to an area that was devastated by the closure of the fishery? Is that a commitment to the fishing area of this Province, I say to people opposite?

AN HON. MEMBER: There should be a fisheries office in every fishing village?

MR. FITZGERALD: No, there shouldn't be a fisheries office in every fisheries village, but you don't go and kick somebody while they are down. If the office is there and it should be there, and that is where the activity is, that is where the offices should be.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) not driving to Siberia.

MR. FITZGERALD: No, they had to drive an hour-and-a-half to work every morning. How long does it take you to go to work? Have you ever traveled from Bonavista to Clarenville in the middle of the winter?

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

MR. FITZGERALD: You do not know what you are talking about and that is why you cannot relate to them, I say to the minister.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. BARRETT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. BARRETT: I think it is very, very important. I think the hon. member is talking about moving an office from one part of the Bonavista Peninsula to Clarenville, and he indicated that Clarenville was not rural Newfoundland and Labrador. I would just like for him to answer my question to say: Is Clarenville rural or not?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, most of the occupations in rural Newfoundland and Labrador are seasonal occupations. Any seasonal occupation, unemployment insurance is always gong to be part of your income when you tabulate it at the end of the year. There is no shame in that. That is what unemployment insurance was meant to be. It was to tie somebody over from the time that they got laid off from their job until they could go back to work again.

The people who work in the fish plant in Bonavista, the people who work in the crab plant in Port Union, it is not their choice when they get laid off or when they get called back to work. The people who work with J-1 Construction building roads, it is not their choice when they get laid off or when they go to work. People working in the woods logging, loggers - a very important industry in my district - they do not decide when they can go into the woods and when they come out.

The federal government, your cousins up in Ottawa, the former Premier, I say to people opposite, implemented, brought about changes in the unemployment insurance system. During the last federal election, what did the Prime Minister do? The Prime Minister came out and apologized to seasonal workers in the country. That is what he did during the election. He came out and apologized to them. He did not apologize two month before that; he did it to win votes. He apologize to them and said the changes that we brought about the unemployment insurance system are wrong, and we are going to change them.

Who did he listen to when he brought about the changes? Who did he listen to when he brought about the changes to the EI system? He did away with the intensity rule which was important. I do not why he ever thought that people should be treated as criminals because they drew EI five years in succession or two years in succession, where he would reduce their benefits from 55 per cent down to 50 per cent. He did away with that, and that was a good thing. I say to people opposite, the change that he made is he increased the cap where you would have the clawback from $39,000 to $49,000 and I ask people in this Legislature right now: Who did that benefit?

The calls that I get and the calls that members over there get are not from people complaining about the clawback because they made $49,000 a year. It is not complaining because they made too much money and they have to pay extra income tax. The calls that I get are from people who cannot qualify for EI. The Prime Minister and the Liberal government up in Ottawa made the changes to cater to the people who work on construction and other trades in the Province of Ontario, certainly not Eastern Canada and certainly not Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, there is one thing that this government should keep in mind when they bring about policies and when they bring about changes to help rural Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. There is one thing missing, and that is the fact of going out and listening to people.

I hear the minister - now, here is another fellow. I am not going to judge him like his Premier judged us. Here is a fellow who stood up in this Legislature, the Minister of Government Services and Lands. He stood in this Legislature, I think it might have been in the last sitting, and he talked about unemployment insurance. He said: One way of dealing with the unemployment insurance system was to do away with it altogether. He said we should be paying people enough money where they would not have to be getting unemployment insurance.

MR. NOEL: No, (inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: What do you mean, no? Yes, you did say it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I remind hon. members that we are out of debate here. Members ought not to be interjecting and talking back and forth across the House. Members should be addressing the Chair and speaking to the Assembly.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Let's just take that way of thinking, I say to you, Mr. Speaker. Let's take that way of speaking that the Minister of Government Services and Lands had, that we should pay people enough money where they would not be able to need unemployment insurance. The concept is a good one, no problem with that, but I suggest that you go down and talk to the person who owns the Baie-vista Restaurant in Bonavista and ask her how much she would have to pay her waitresses there if she was going to have them work for probably twenty weeks a year and pay them enough where they get a wage that they could live on for fifty-two weeks a year. How unrealistic.

I heard the Premier come here one day and talk about how he had come into - that morning he had gone out and he had opened the Whiffen Head facility.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. FITZGERALD: By leave, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the Premier spoke a few minutes ago and made a very important point. The Member for Terra Nova, last night, in his speech on the double-EDGE legislation, or the EDGE legislation, also made a very good point. I cannot do it as well, I say to the hon. members and you, Mr. Speaker. I cannot do it as well as the Member for Terra Nova did it last night when talking about the negativity. I do not have that flare that he has.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could get protection from that crowd because I am scared to death.

Mr. Speaker, if you look at what is in this resolution, if you look at the first: Whereas the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has done nothing; that must be zero. Everyone of the members over there as they stood this afternoon, even old negativity himself from Bonavista South, stood up and said: Yes, there are some good things happening.

AN HON. MEMBER: Did you hear him on the radio this morning?

MR. TULK: On the radio, and yesterday in this House.

What is it? What is it about the Member for The Straits & White Bay area that is so negative? Has done nothing in twelve years; in twelve years, has done nothing. Now, Mr. Speaker, I tell him that he has some dissenting voices on the other side. There is a certain member which is not in his seat - and I wish he were here - there is a certain member on the other side which obviously disagrees with him. That member, this spring, spoke to move the motion on the Speech from the Throne. Here is what he said: I am pleased to see the reflection in the Speech from the Throne today that government has continued to be committed to rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: We are acting on the messages heard during the jobs and road consultation by delivering the tools communities and regions need to control and shape their own destinies.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who said that?

MR. TULK: The Member for Trinity North said that.

AN HON. MEMBER: Really!

MR. TULK: The Member for Trinity North made that statement. Regional development is sharply in focus for this government. The new Department of Industry, Trade and Rural Development will play a significant role in assisting communities to seize and build on their opportunities.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who said that?

MR. TULK: The Member for Trinity North said it. The Tory member; the new found Tory Member for Trinity North.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: I am not going to comment whether he was here or not.

A competitive tax regime, programs that stimulate investment, and initiatives that support rural economic development are all essential ingredients in building on the promise of our future.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who said that?

MR. TULK: The Member for Trinity North. The new found Tory. That is who said it, Mr. Speaker. The new found Tory from Trinity North.

AN HON. MEMBER: Are there any more?

MR. TULK: Listen to this, he said: I think the Trinity North area is an example of how sound government policy and government working together in partnership with community groups and the private sector can create a successful, diversified economy within a particular region of the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: Who said that?

MR. TULK: The Member for Trinity North. The new crowned buddy of the Member for Bonavista South. The guy who sits right behind him, that he protects, that is who said it.

I am proud to be part of a government and to represent a district that has demonstrated that when communities work together and when government creates a supportive economic and social environment, the end result can be a successful, economically viable region.

AN HON. MEMBER: Who said that?

MR. TULK: The Member for Trinity North made that statement. The new found member that the Leader of the Opposition counts as a prize. He got the prize all right. He got the prize no joke about it.

Now, I expect then, if that member were in his seat, that he would vote today against this resolution because this resolution says that this government has done nothing in twelve years, has done nothing. He would have to vote against it. Not only that, I would be surprised if all the members over there this evening do not stand up and vote against it. I expect members over there will vote against this resolution too because I have to tell the Member for The Straits & White Bay North, that every person on that side of the House who stood up - and rightfully so. They have made some good speeches, because we know that there are problems in certain areas of the Province - areas of the Province now I said, do not forget that - that we have not been able to address since the groundfish moratorium of 1992. We know that. All of us in this House know that; but to get here and say that a government has done nothing. His own members, according to their speeches this afternoon, are going to have to vote against him.

I have to say to him, that the Member for The Straits & White Bay North is prone to making exaggerated statements. Last night I sat here and I could not believe what I heard coming out of his mouth. That he, Dave Decker and Max Short, were the people responsible for seeing a wharf built in St. Anthony, and the shrimp allocation - and that Brian Tobin had nothing to do with it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TULK: Brian Tobin, he said, had nothing to do with it. How many people over here did Brian Tobin convince, in whatever way he used.... Some people said: Now, is that right, for someone to put $7 million - what was it, $80 million in the FRAM-ED economic development agreement - in one area?

Who did that? That was Brian Tobin. I have to say to him - Dave Decker and Max Short in particular, yes Sir, right there, pushed it down everybody's throat. Do you know what?

The first time I heard the name of Trevor Taylor in this Province was when I heard that this fellow who used to be a Liberal was running for the NDP federally. That was the first time, and the plant was open by that time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TULK: That is how the Member for the Straits & White Bay North -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TULK: Last night he said it has been fifty-one years. He has a tendency to exaggerate, as I said. Last night, it has been fifty-one years since anything happened.

AN HON. MEMBER: Did he phone you, wanting to run for the Liberals?

MR. TULK: They didn't get the message to me, but he called a few people in the party. That was just before the Leader of the Opposition - he moved pretty fast on it; I have to say that for him.

AN HON. MEMBER: Thanks.

MR. TULK: I am not talking about you. You never moved. You tried to take credit for it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TULK: You tried to take credit for it, alright, but he moved pretty fast. That was a good move that he made there. I have no problem with good moves.

Last night the Member for The Straits & White Bay says: It has been fifty-one years and nothing has been done.

MR. TAYLOR: I never said that.

MR. TULK: Oh yes, you did. Fifty-one years and nothing has been done. Now today, at least, we have the hon. gentleman down to twelve. If he stays around and if he listens to a few more good news stories he might even wake up one of these mornings with a positive thought in his mind. He might, but I doubt it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Danny, you won't be here when the election is called; you will be that low in the polls. You will be that low in the polls by the time the election is called, you won't be here. You will be gone.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TULK: Here is his next WHEREAS, Mr. Speaker.

"WHEREAS the Government's Renewal Strategy for Jobs and Growth is all process and no action...." First of all, he says it is all process, there is something wrong with it. There is something wrong with the 300 presentations that were made to us to put recommendations in place. Does he know that 75 per cent of the recommendations that were made have been implemented already? Does he know that? Does he know that as a result of the recommendations that were made, the piece of legislation that I believe everybody on that side of the House is going to vote for - the EDGE program - does he know that was part of the recommendations, which is meant to encourage businesses to move outside of St. John's. Does he know that? Is he aware of that?

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. TULK: No. No action, old negativity himself, flopping around all over the place just like a big cod in the bottom of a boat, flopping around all over the place, flapping his tail but going nowhere. That is exactly what he is. No plan. The Member for Baie Verte stood up and said, no plan. Mr. Speaker, where is that Jobs and Growth?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Have you got it?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: Where is it? Look, read it. It is what the people of Newfoundland told us to put in place. I have to tell you something: they were right. The people of this Province were right, because since we started implementing this plan in various departments that we have created, in various measures that we have taken, you cannot argue with success. The fact of the matter is that employment this year is up 3 per cent over last year - the highest number of people employed in our history, in October.

AN HON. MEMBER: What is the unemployment rate (inaudible)?

MR. TULK: It is too high. The hon. gentleman says: What is the unemployment rate?

You know what -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair wants to remind all hon. members of the House that from time to time members' duties take them away from the House, as it does ministers, and reference to members who are absent from the House ought not to be a subject of debate here in this House. Reference should not be made when members are away.

MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development.

MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I recognized as soon as I said it that I said it, and I said I did not want to do it again. I do apologize to the hon. gentleman for it. Referring to anybody who is out of the House is not allowed. You are quite right.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: A point of order, no, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: It is now 4:46 p.m. and the hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North will be finishing the debate. He is closing the debate. That is the normal procedure that we have here in the House.

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, if I may, on a point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: The Member for The Straits & White Bay North has gladly allotted - because there were so many speakers on our side who would like to speak - me his time to participate in the debate.

MR. LUSH: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I just submit that is not in accordance with the rules and the procedures of this House in the Standing Orders, that the hon. member is not permitted to do that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

As I understand it from the hon. the Opposition House Leader, he is speaking to the point of order.

Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. SPEAKER: No leave.

MR. E. BYRNE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, we have put forward a private member's motion today - the Member for The Straits & White Bay North - supported wholeheartedly by each and every member in this caucus. All of the debate occurred by government members and ministers, Mr. Speaker -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: It is a point of order, I say to the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. E. BYRNE: Many people want to participate. Everybody is being accused of being negative and now when one member wants to participate - we are not using your time - and the time allotted to the Official Opposition, that the member has given me leave to speak to a few moments of the resolution, and members opposite have denied me that opportunity. I want to know, is that really appropriate? I believe, Mr .Speaker, that we have the ability, by leave of the House.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member knows that the rules state that the member who introduces the motion has reserved fifteen minutes at the end of the debate to close the debate. These are the rules of the House. By leave, I guess we could do that but obviously there was no leave. So there is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have no problem in closing debate on this resolution, Mr. Speaker, no problem whatsoever. Although, I was prepared to give the Member for Kilbride the opportunity to close debate because I believe that he had some valuable comments to add to this debate here this afternoon.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Premier spoke about negativity.

MR. BARRETT: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, if the Member for Bellevue wants to stand up and have something to say about this resolution then he should have done it earlier today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Every time this afternoon that anybody on this side of the House has been speaking -

MR. BARRETT: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On a point of order, the hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I want to remind the hon. Member for The Straits & White Bay North that there were at least eight or nine other members on this side of the House who would have loved to speak to this debate.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order. I ask the hon. minister to take his seat.

The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, every time this afternoon, that I can recall here, that anybody on this side of the House has stood to speak on this private member's resolution that I presented, somebody from that side of the House has stood up and interrupted our time for debate in this House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Now, Mr. Speaker, I recognize what the Minister of Transportation has said, that there are other people on that side of the House who wanted to speak. I just recognized, we all did, that the Member for Kilbride, the minister after the next election, wanted to have time to speak and I was prepared to give up my time to allow him but people on that side of the House would not because they are afraid of hearing one more person from this side of the House speak the truth about what is going on out in rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I will just deal with the Whereases of our resolution and I have nine minutes left to do it, I believe. We have said: done nothing; and the Minister of Industry, Trade and Rural Development has disagreed. Well, Mr. Speaker, the information speaks for itself. I have spoken about the information here today. I spoke about it last night, as have other members, of our opposition; 86,924 people have left this Province since 1995. That is the record, 86,924 people. Yes, there have been 48,365 come back in that same period but not to rural Newfoundland. By and large, Mr. Speaker, to the more urban centres, the regional service centres and the Northeast Avalon parts of this Province. That is the story. Mr. Speaker, that is part of the story. That is not all of the story.

That does not tell the story, as the Member for Baie Verte said, about the people who have left rural Newfoundland and relocated to the larger parts of this Province. So, Mr. Speaker, that is one piece of information that speaks for itself about what is going on in rural Newfoundland.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TAYLOR: That is nothing to be excited about is right.

Mr. Speaker, the other piece of information - as I have said before, I said it last night, I said it earlier today and I will reference it again now, while government members get up and wave the flag on GDP, the fact of the matter is, that the gross disposal income of the people of this Province has remained unchanged in the last ten to twelve years.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TAYLOR: Disposal income; anyway, the personal disposable income. The total aggregate, if I can use that word, disposal income of this Province has remained constant over that period of time. That is what has happened. While they talk about the growth that is happening in this Province the people, the money that they have in their pocket to fire around on services and food and whatever, has not changed. In other words, Mr. Speaker, there are a few more people - while they talk about how many more people are employed, the fact of the matter is that the few more people who are employed are just taking the same amount of money that was in the economy in1989 and sharing it around amongst more people.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I have spoken from time to time in here about how this government is sharing poverty. That is what they have done in rural Newfoundland and this is another figure that goes to show that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I know that the people opposite are obviously excited. I heard the Minister of Labour last night talking about being excited. I don't like bringing up this kind of stuff, but I just have to say this in all sincerity, the minister last night, and some of the other members opposite, talked about: it is time to stop whining. I don't like being in here whining.

MS THISTLE: So you admit you are whining?

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, I do admit that I am whining. I am whining on behalf of the people of rural Newfoundland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: If the Minister of Labour calls me a whiner, I am a whiner, if I am whining on behalf of rural Newfoundland. If the Premier calls us stupid on this side because of what we are presenting on behalf of the people in Newfoundland and Labrador - rural members - then we are stupid also.

Mr. Speaker, I will just say this: When it comes to whining and skinning up your sleeves, as the minister said last night, it is time for people to skin up their sleeves and get excited about what is going on in Newfoundland and Labrador. I can tell you about skinning up your sleeves and packing up and leaving like the former Member for The Straits & White Bay North said on a radio interview the other day. I can tell you about skinning up your sleeves and packing up and leaving. In 1993, after ten months in a new house, I packed up and moved my family, left the house and sold it for next to nothing. I never, ever thought I would get back to rural Newfoundland. Fortunately enough, I got back in 1998. That is what I know about.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TAYLOR: I never left the Province, I say to the members opposite. I was fortunate enough to find another job within the Province and I was fortunate to find my way back.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TAYLOR: Yes, but I can tell you it was no thanks to the people opposite, no thanks whatsoever.

Mr. Speaker, the information speaks for itself. While the members opposite talk about how great things are in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, while it is easy to get up here in this House and talk about how great everything is, the fact of the matter is that you cannot go out in a place like Englee and tell the people about how great it is in Newfoundland and Labrador. It is no good to try and tell them, they are not going to listen to you. They are willing to skin up their sleeves and go to work. What do the people of Englee want? I listened to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture, I listened to the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair talking about the fisheries policy. What do the people of Englee want? I listened to the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture. I listened to the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair talking about fisheries policy. What do the people from Englee want? They want a share of the fish that comes ashore on the Northern Peninsula to be processed in their area. They are not looking for anything great. There is 5 million or 6 million pounds of crab that comes ashore down there. They are saying: We have one crab plant on the Northern Peninsula, one operational crab plant on the Northern Peninsula. Why can't we make sure that this plant is operational? That is what we are asking for. When we have 31 million pounds of shrimp coming ashore on the Northern Peninsula, we are asking for a little bit more access. That is what we are asking for down there. We are asking to be treated fairly, to create an economy.

The Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture talks about this great plan that he has, and that I am always asking for it and saying that he has no plan. I am saying that he has no plan because nobody can see it. Show it to us. That is all I am asking. If he would show it to me, maybe I would support it. Maybe I would say: Minister, that is a great plan. Maybe I would, but I have not seen it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: When he tables it in this House, then I will pass judgement on it, Mr. Speaker.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where is your plan? Put your plan on the table.

MR. TAYLOR: You will see my plan when I take his seat.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, I see that there are only a couple of minutes left. I think I have made my points on this resolution. I think we all know what the true story is in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. Yes, we all acknowledge that there are some bright spots in this Province. Yes, we acknowledge that the Northeast Avalon is doing well. We all know where infrastructure monies are being spent, where investment in infrastructure is taking place, where oil and gas is coming ashore, where mines are operating, where fish plants are operating, things are not so bad. But, Mr Speaker, that is not the story throughout this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: That is not the story in Englee. It is not the story in Conche. It is not the story in Croque. It is not the story in Roddington or even in St. Anthony. The Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs knows how the council in St. Anthony, the council in Roddington, and the council in Englee are looking for money for infrastructure development because their infrastructure is twenty-five, thirty and forty years old, and it is falling apart on them. They cannot afford to keep it up because the tax base is not there, because they are losing the people and they are losing their businesses.

That is what it is like out in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. It is time, Mr. Speaker. All we are asking here today is that people recognize that there are truly critical problems in most of this Province; most of this Province. The majority of the people might be alright because half of them live on the Avalon Peninsula, 2 per cent of the landmass of this Province, but the vast majority of people live in rural Newfoundland, and while they might have a job, they certainly question how long they are going to be able to hang on there.

With that, Mr. Speaker, I thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

All those in favour of the motion, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

MR. SPEAKER: All those against, ‘nay'

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nay.

MR. SPEAKER: I declare the motion defeated.

This House now stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, at 1:30 p.m.